Starting a Gunsmithing Business A-Z (What you need to know)
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2022
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I just graduated from SDI on the 16th of this month, I'm looking for my first job in the business now. I do not have any gunsmiths in my area to work with to build more experience. I am looking for anyway to get my foot in the business now.
Before you partnered with the SDI, did you actually get on line an read reviews of SDI and their curriculum? SDI is the internet joke school with the claim they simply steal GI-BILL money (they target military/vets) and produce an almost worthless certificate for $12,000 or an associates for $25,000. Again, most online reviews, SDI graduates can not even find work because their skills upon graduation are basically non-existent. So, ULTIMATE-RELOADER have you taken these classes or are you just providing an advertising platform for a check?
Really looking forward to this. I started my shop a little over a year ago to transition from my corporate job into something more hands-on that I actually had a passion for. I apprenticed with another gunsmith for about 3 months. During that time, I drove 3 hours one way, worked 8 hours, and drove 3 hours home on my weekends just for the opportunity to learn and make chips. I then took Gordy Gritters' Precision Rifle Building class one-on-one and got my FFL in June of last year. I can tell you from my experience, both in this new business and 21 years in a family business, the key to success will be your customers and how they are treated.
There are plenty of guys who can make chips and are great machinists, but have no people skills and have no sense of urgency or service to the customer. If you're that guy, you're probably not going to be successful no matter how good your work is or how accurate your rifles are. There are plenty of guys who build great rifles but who are just a pain to deal with and have lead times that are their fault and not so much the amount of work they have.
You also have to treat it like a business. This means that communication with the customer is important, due dates are important, and the relationships with your vendors are important. You must have the interest to continue to learn and be relevant. I took Gordy's AR accurizing class this year and plan to train every year that he'll have me. The guys that I've had the pleasure of working with to become a gunsmith myself have both been very successful in their business and are both genuinely nice people to be around and very knowledgeable. I don't think that's a coincidence.
I think, the demand is so high (at least, right now) for builders who consistently produce quality rifles that people skills don’t play much of a factor. Those guys/companies just go through a lot of one-time customers like water. Yes, eventually, they may run out of suckers or hopefully their reputation for being difficult catches up to them but I haven’t seen it if they produce a good product.
I just dumped my rifle builder for this very reason. He could be very helpful and on the other hand could be extremely condescending and rude. He messed up the muzzle threads on my last barrel (the brake absolutely wouldn’t thread on) and refused to fix it. He first told me to take it to a large gun store local to us and have them do it. He then chewed my ass for leaving the rifle with him for six years to “hang onto” and showed me an invoice of the very first rifle I had him build. Lastly, he told me his FFL expired and he wasn’t able to work on rifles which I contacted the ATF and found to be a lie. Total scumbag so, the search for a new one begins.
@@tinfoilsombrero1439 I've had similar experiences (which is why I started my own shop). Guys I dealt with fell into 2 categories: 1.) guys with really good technical skill who did great work but wouldn't answer the phone, wouldn't call you back, and acted like you kicked their dog if you questioned ANYTHING or 2.) friendly guys who were great to talk to but couldn't get anything done and when you did get it, it was probably wrong and needed rework (the "Sorry, I forgot" guy). You're right that demand has made gunsmiths out of everyone, especially now with chassis stocks and "pre-fit" barrels. However, I think this is just like the chopper craze 20 years ago. Look how many builders there were then, and look how many there are now. There are lots of folks cashing in and they have some nice looking rifles, but I notice they don't show groups and they don't have a lot of repeat business. They also don't compete and/or hunt with their own stuff (at least not the same stuff they sell to customers).
It was important to me when I started to create the kind of business that I would expect as a customer. I have a real shop and do not work out of my house. I have a valid FFL (type 07 manufacturer) and all relevant business licenses and fed/state ID's. I have nice equipment and my shop is clean and orderly. Written estimates are given for all work and any changes requested by the customer are documented and approved. I'm constantly looking for substitutions that can reduce lead time and keep the customer informed before they need to call me. Promised delivery is very important to me. Complete rifles are delivered with a test target, spec sheet listing all components, part numbers, and torque specs, and the blueprint the rifle was built from. There are no secrets to my work, just attention to detail that most do not wish to do. I charge a fair price and don't do "freebies", although I do try to save my customer money when I can.
With modern components, it's pretty easy to make an accurate rifle. Proper machining and careful assembly with good components will almost always give you a super-accurate rifle. However, there's a LOT more than being able to build an accurate rifle that makes you successful and provides longevity in business.
@@vettepilot427
Your business model is how I run my own business. I am not a rifle builder but I am suited for it. I’d love to do it but I don’t have the capital. It’s interesting though, as technical and communicative as I am, there are still customers who will bitch. I swiftly cut them loose and luckily, they are few and far between. You are correct on the fad gun builders. There are a lot of them out there. I needed a barrel threaded a few months ago. Took it to one of the big shops. They pinched the muzzle enough that the rifle absolutely will not shoot anymore. 3/8” groups to 1 MOA overnight. It is maddening.
@@tinfoilsombrero1439 One of first customers was a guy who had all of his components and just needed someone to machine/chamber the barrel, glass bed the stock, and assemble the rifle. He had asked a prominent builder to do this work for him, they agreed, and he sent them the parts. 3 YEARS LATER having not even started, he asked for the parts back and was referred to me by a mutual friend in the industry. He said he would never do business with them and I've worked with him on 2 more rifle projects after that one. All that was required was for the initial company to be honest and say that they were not accepting new work outside their builds. He would have went somewhere else on this one, but they would have still been in good standing.
I've not had any "bitchy" customers. The issues with customers that I have are small things like quoting a muzzle brake in the build, getting the barrel done, and then the customer decides he wants to use a suppressor adapter instead that is not self-timing. Or, you have a customer who buys a really nice rifle and then asks why it doesn't shoot good groups with cheap FMJ ammo. This is the same customer who buys a $5k rifle but thinks $200 is outrageous for a good set of rings for his $3k scope on a magnum rifle. These are pretty easy issues to work through.
@@tinfoilsombrero1439 Depends how bad he screwed them up, if he didn't cut deep enough on the lathe that can be easily fixed with threading die and should be good as new. A lot of mistakes can be fixed with the threading die unless he completely butchered them than you would need to cut off 1/2 or so and start over.
I used to be an FFL 01 w/SOT and relinquished my License back in 2016. There are several things that have changed since I 1st got my FFL 01 that anyone thinking of getting their FFL 01 should be aware of.
It used to be that the ATF would try to help the Small FFL 01's when they came out to do a Compliance check, like pointing out if there was an "Issue" that they would allow you to correct, such as an honest error on a 4473 or in your A&D Bound Book. These days, the ATF has taken a "Zero Tolerance" Policy and will Revoke a License for pretty much anything. Add to that their "Proposed" Requirements wanting the FFL to maintain Digital Records (4473's & "Bound Book"), for all Sales to be Video Recorded, for there to be a "Safe Storage Device" on hand for EVERY Firearm for Sale in the Shop...The list of things goes on and on. Basically, where the ATF USED to say they were there to Assist you in your Business, NOW they are attempting to shut down as many FFL's as Possible. Not to mention just like Gavin brought up, a lot of the CC Companies won't allow Firearms to be purchased using their Service and UPS/FEDEX won't allow you to ship Firearms related stuff using their Service.
I'd actually considered trying to get my FFL back but have thrown that Idea out the window, LOL!
I believe every word. It’s pathetic how shallow people have become. I get nauseous thinking of them.
@@AFullNelson I'm not sure where you are but I'm here in East Texas and was an FFL 01 here for 10 years (2006-2016) . The town I live in (and have lived here pretty much all of my Life) has a Population of under 200 but there were 4 FFL 01's and a couple of FFL 07's here and we all had Computers to run our NICS Checks on (you could also do it from a Smart Phone). Right now, the ATF says an FFL MAY use digital Records, what I was posting about is what the ATF Wants to make happen (such as the Cameras, Safes, etc) because it would make it too expensive for Small Dealers like I was to stay in Business. Unfortunately, I didn't print out or bookmark where I found this information and when I try to do a Google Search for it now all that comes up is having to do with the "Frame and Receiver" Crap. I'll keep searching and try to get back with you on that.
ETA: I did find the DOJ "Rule" about safes: www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-new-rule-help-enhance-safe-and-secure-storage-firearms-publishes
In there, it does say; "or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination or other similar means." but we've pretty much always had the Rule that we had to furnish a gun lock with any Firearm sold (such as used Firearms we took in) that didn't come from the Manufacturer with a Lock, so I don't Believe gun locks were what they are talking about since Gun Locks are used to block the action, Rather than store a Firearm....but I could be incorrect about that.
The UPS/FEDEX not allowing to ship is a bit confusing here. They ship stuff all the time. I have a Firearm I am shipping through UPS today and I have never had an issue. I've purchased many firearms, and many of them come through UPS and FEDEX.
@@snarkyjay4744 yep
I looked into gunsmithing as a career 30 years ago, and one of the things that put me off the idea, was a joke floating around at the time, that had the painful sting of truth in it...
What's the difference between a Gunsmith and a pizza?
A pizza can feed a family of four.😭
My mentor said that his mentor told him that to make $1 million as a gunsmith is to start with $2 million
@@remiel3315 that joke exists in every industry that I’ve ever worked in
Just got my diploma from SDI, and I can't say enough about how great the school is.
I've been looking into SDI. Definitely worth the money?
Just asking, do you get an actual degree or just some paper saying you've completed a course? I couldn't find anything about that
I’ve heard differently. I heard you mostly read some material, then watch RUclips videos that aren’t even related to the reading material, do written assignments with the only feedback being on grammar and spelling, and that they send cheap ass tools from harbor freight. I can do that on my own
@@__________5243 I'm almost done in the Associate Degree Program, and I feel I have received as good an education as would be possible in the online environment. Online programs are really best for those of us who have responsibilities that prevent our taking a couple years off to go to a brick and mortar school.
SDI is a pretty rigorous program. There is a lot of reading, some from their textbooks and most from your own internet research. I have found their videos useful, and the tools they sent me were perfectly appropriate for my level.
I think the kind of student who will find SDI a good fit is somebody who is a strongly motivated learner with the initiative to go beyond just the minimum requirements. I think I have definitely got my tuition dollars' worth.
@@__________5243 i wonder how come no one is replying to you. If what you said about SDI is true, I am taking them off of my list for consideration. I’d rather go the AGI route. They’re probably the better choice.
I must say you both did a spectacular job. Literally A-Z … information. Can’t thank you both enough for the invaluable info. I wish you both good fortune. Bravo!!!
Man what an amazing channel you have here. When I retire from working for Uncle Sam this is exactly what I plan on doing. Bolt gun focused. Your an inspiration and put out amazing content. Your one of the only ppl that put out content like you do with the type of gear and career development info. Keep it man more content like this would be sweet.
I also want to mention that there's two types of work and they affect your business differently:
1.) Project work - These are full in-house builds/restorations for AR's, bolt rifles, pistols, etc. Pros - Reputation builder and gross income. These are the builds that you can showcase the full range of services that your shop offers: machining, assembly, finishing, etc. There's a mix of labor and components so you make money on both. These are the guns you put on social media and the website as a "look what we can do". Cons - lead time to finish these are often VERY long. Some stock and action manufacturers are at 8-10 MONTHS lead time. Even with a 50% deposit, that's a LONG time to have your money tied up in a project, especially if you're paying monthly expenses (equipment payments, rent, utilities, etc). Also, the upfront cost is much more. Your cost on these components will be in the thousands of dollars. Even with payment terms, you'll still most likely have to pay for the components long before the project is delivered to the customer.
2.) In-and-out - These are the "daily routine" kind of jobs. Pistol sights, scope mounting, cleanings, simple repairs, engraving, barrel threading, etc. Pros - short lead income. These are the jobs that "pay the rent" so to speak. While they may involve some purchased items, the bill is 50% or more labor and the jobs are returned to the customer within 30 days (usually within the same week). These jobs are key because they provide you with cash without a huge upfront cost like project work and are paid in full (often in cash or check, no processing fees). Cons - enough volume with these kinds of jobs to be able to fully pay the bills. Since these are simple jobs, most folks are able to do them themselves (or think they can, especially with AR's) so the demand is not high. Also, there's not a lot of sizzle in these jobs. A picture of a clean gun or a new set of sights on a pistol won't get you a lot of Instagram followers or be the lead picture on your website.
I would say that you need a comfortable mix of either to be really successful. A general gunsmith who likes getting jobs in-and-out and fixing different kinds of guns shouldn't be afraid to take on a larger, more complete project. You don't want to be known as the guy "who just does little stuff". Conversely, a project shop that specializes in full builds need not turn away small jobs as they can be more profitable on a percentage basis and build a customer base. Little jobs turn into big jobs and some customers want to give you a "trial run" before they commit to a full-house build.
Some good points here. Thanks.
Congratulations Gavin!
This is really good information, thank you very much the both of ya!
Terrific starting video to gun smithing...👍🏼
Also abolish the ATF & All gun laws.
Great decision ! I wish you the best of luck in your new business ! greez from austria. 👏👍
Thank you!
Awesome video brother!!!
Good job Gavin
Good for you, I really wish you luck
This is a very informative video.. thank you!
“Why does it cost so much to chamber a barrel??”
This is why. Listen to how much government gets in the way.
It’s half the cost of business, it’s sounds bad when it’s explained but as a business owner I can tell you it’s worse when you actually have to fill out the papers and write the thousandth $50 check for a filing fee for paperwork that doesn’t make sense.
This channel should have 1,000,000 subs.
Thank you for the education 👍
I’m 67 and am thinking of following my passion about accuracy if firearms
I live in Canada so it’s a lot different here
But I have a 1800 square foot shop and would like to finish my working career doing what I love
You’ve opened my eyes
Thank you 🙏
Awesome- good luck with it!!!
Hope that worked out for you man!
I have zero experience, just got my LTC and would love to slowly learn and get into gunsmithing. I'm looking into some basic online training. Great video, good information. Thanks guys!
I’m in Washington state also, been looking into SDI and probably within the next year gonna do their science in firearms program and then yea soooo much red tape in Washington state and now even more! Great video.
Very interesting, thank you
W2 is the only employee, contract (1099) is specifically not a employee
Thank you!
48:00 is a tough point Rick touched on. Basically, when your Avocation becomes your Vocation you get no Vacation.
So how long till I can contract you to make a semi auto belt fed 37mm flare/signal launcher? Or can we cross fund the money to buy you the rights to make some China Lake pump action 37mm launchers?
Been picking at this for 30 years
Great video. Though, the comment of the ATF NOT being the enemy didn't age very well. 😂
Just enrolled and set to begin in January. Hope it all goes well
howd it go?
Been matching for 35 years...specialty would be on my list
That was an excellent video, as yours are always. Question, after getting the LLC., zoning, proper licenses, etc. Do you have to set up your home based shop prior to approval by ATF? Or can you meet with the interviewer with all your plans? In other words if if you plan on only doing coatings do you have to have the booth and all set up, only to not be approved and hence be out the money?
When I got my FFL the shop had to at least be viable. You might not have all of your machinery but it must be a specific place set aside for the firearms business. Main thing was showing that you are able to safely and securely store firearms in your possession. Gave up my FFL in 2022 and am looking at getting it back specifically for Gunsmithing.
Also work for an already establish ffl that cant offer a gunsmithing job because they dont have one. Go into it with them haveing priority on work done. When you tell it might take a little more time for there job because they have priority and the coustomer will walk into the store and make there job a priority and they can receive parts for any job through them. Prodit for all and probly saveing to them.
With a name like “Gordy Gritters”, he probably charges by the second! Brilliant! Cheers mates!!
Are you planning on doing anything with the Gavle? Im this close to "pulling the trigger" on the FSC on your site, with the plan of upgrading as $ permits. The concealability of the Gavle is super tempting tho..
I might suggest creating several different LLC's regarding the overall gun business. Have the gun business with minimal assets in the corporation, have an LLC with your machinery/tools in which you rent their use to th3 gunsmithing Corp, and if you own/finance the property have another Corp in which you rent the property to the gun corp.
My opinion as a gunsmith/gunmaker, I don't put much if any stock on an online education. Others may disagree.
👍👍 Thank you
Rick mentioned a thesis on LE training, any link to that? Very interested in reading that.
I've been mulling over starting a gunsmith service as well. So tired of working in IT.
If you are finishing Glock/clone lowers, or finishing ar15 lowers do you have to add your own marking to the lower before being able to sell?
As a former student of SDI, I can tell you that their courses were extremely lacking in creativity, to the point they were having me watch RUclips videos, many of which I have seen already, long before SDI was even in my thoughts. Many of the assignments they give you were taken from online forums and other articles that are readily accessible on the internet without having to pay 20,000 dollars to some institution. There was absolutely no originality in any of their courses and much of what they taught I was already familiar with. Take it from someone who has been there and done that, you wanna be a gunsmith? Then pick up a tool, get to work and start screwing up. Sooner or later, your screw ups are going to start looking like work. This is a hands on industry where you are going to learn everything you need to know about being a gunsmith by actually getting your hands dirty and doing the work. Yes, there is book knowledge, there is with everything, but that knowledge can be had literally anywhere at a cost of only your time to watch or read. What I am trying to say is there is NOTHING you will learn at SDI that you can't teach yourself for free. You don't need a fancy 20,000 dollar piece of paper handing on your wall to show the world that you know how to work on firearms. If you are a true gunsmith, your work will speak for itself better than any piece of paper will. This is experience talking.
Passionate rant 🫡
I've heard similar things about the SDI curriculum. I've been pondering training for a couple years now and seeing such comments come up from time to time really has me second guessing the true value of SDI.
CST was a top notch school when i went years ago
Im so happy i found your video i just want to produce quality not quantity leave my mark in the community ill be getting enrolled asap
No found out reall quick there is people doing good and bad sericoat and i have no expense in it when i hand them a list of people they can go to.
I find it a good work draw to advertise a 3 per cent dicount for cash and add 4 percent for all charges other than cash. When the coustomer comes in and pays with cash give him some freebee for doing business with you that is less than one percent of what he paid.
Great Channel,
Question: This question is about the ease or difficulty in converting the AR15 platform to other calibers than 223 Rem. For example, I want a 22 hornet. Now the 22 Hornet bullet is about .001 larger than the 223, so a new barrel is needed. It seem like the bolt, the small piece fitting in the bolt carrier could be readily modified to handle the 22 hornet rim. You see where I am going this question, about the ease to make these modifications to the AR platform to create 22 or near 22 caliber conversions. any comments or conversion to dicuss
It can be as easy as a bolt and barrel swap. Or as hard as a bunch of custom machine work. Something like the 224 Valkyrie has a case head of 6.8 spc or otherwise a standard bolt face. 22 arc is the same bolt face as 7.62x39 both of which are readily available bolts for the AR platform. To do a 22 hornet you are looking at a custom .350 bolt face diameter as the 223 is a .380 then you have to adjust the extractor so that it can extract the cartridge properly. A lot would go into that though I can definitely see someone out there giving that a try. I guess it would come down to if the juice is worth the squeeze.
Is the cost crazy
The 3 most important gunsmith things to Learn first are learn to headspace chamber and thread on a Lathe is #1, then learn how to internal and external thread a bushing into a bushing then into the 3rd bushing. Then learn how to pre heat metal with Mapp gas and mini fill weld with 1/16, arc rods etc etc.
Hey Gavin!
If you just work on and or repair the coustomers tools and have the coustimer order his parts through you vendors and have they sighn a wavor of release of liability ti you would you need all the government licsenseing? Just do the labor not the enginering of what the want.
Don't even bother in NY, trust me
I apprenticed under a gunsmith for about 2 years when I was in high school. He told me this joke I still think of often: what's the difference between a gunsmith and a large pizza... The pizza can feed a family of 4
Sonora institute Is s joke.
If you want to learn how to turn your barrels etc. It'd kinda hard if you don't have s lathe.
Goin to the school in Colorado Is the only way to go...
@@redraiderreloading7612 there are no good schools in California?
@@TheTAEclub There are about 8 brick and mortar firearm schools in the US. Trinity in Colorado, FVCC in Kalispell MT, there is one in California though I don't remember the name of it.
Yo grant Thompson that you my man?
Explain insurance and liabilities required and any details.
Do you need an FFL or anything ATF related if your business is only gunsmithing? No firearm sales, just smithing. ????
Yes
Absolutely!!! It is against federal law to charge someone for working on a gun w/o an FFL.
Rake:
It sure be nice
Got it all
DAY:
Is a detached garage separate from a home and sole stand alone proprietor?
No, unless the garage/shop has a separate address and recognized as such by the county/state. If not you will be considered “home based”, this will seriously limit the businesses that will deal with you. It is a doable business model, but you will need to hustle for deals.
I already own a property that my wife's business is in and I have 2500 sq ft in the basement for this
Nosale:
Funny how you talk about linked in and portfolios, if you applied for a position at my company and started out with that crap I’d show you the door. The mechanics and welders that I rely on have zero credentials, as for myself I’m a high school drop out. Passing a class and having the credentials is a very different thing in my experience then actually being competent and being able to think on the fly and solve problems.
Right but having both is where masters are at
This is irrelevant comparison when speaking about the corporate world. Majority of corporations require a degree because it's an insurance policy and display point for bumping up sales.
You sound like the type of employer to require prior work experience for a kid fresh from high school diploma or not 🚨
Booars:
Will the brain dead government gastoppo have a peice of paper in your pocession for every charge and receipt. And a file of every job with itemized print out so if gastopo comes in make them ask for what specific job information and give then only that specific job through you 2a lawyer.
OoOo:
Screw them if they can't take a joke
Stopped watching as soon as I saw SDI