Next experiment should be a more budget brass comparison between brands like PMC, LC, SL, Hndy, etc... see how long each one holds up and where they fail. Project Farm style!
U should do this same using what 90% of reloaders have like a Rcbs press Rcbs / Lee dies and a regular annealing machine to see if u get different results . Great video as always
I would say this issue is one downside to Gavin's tests. He uses super high end, expensive gear that the average guy simply cannot afford. Its interesting to see but the info is somewhat limited for us normal people.
Very impressive results! Surprising performance from a single brass. We typically use an arbitrary number of firings for certain brass depending on pressure of that cartridge. Magnums no more than 5. Standard short actions 7-8, etc. We only recently have been annealing. I have been handloading everything(shotgun, handgun & rifle) since the mid 80s. But I have learned a good bit this past 8 years or so watching channels like this. Thank you so much.
I have been shooting Alpha brass in 6 BRA for 600 yard benchrest. Still using the same 100 pieces and confident over 30 firing each. Stopped counting. I also anneal with an AMP ever time.
Well I’m even more excited about my Alpha brass now! Two things I’d love to see in a test like this, chronograph info across all shots like ES and SD as well as using a primer pocket go no go gauge to verify primer fitment
I’ve done this test on 6BRA and have gotten between 50-57 on 20 pieces of BRA, 29 gr h4895, annealing every time bumping 2 tho, and sizing pretty aggressively with a 261 shoulder and a .2400 mandrel on each sizing. May have gotten more if I wasn’t so agressive in sizing as my necks started to tear, but had the same primer pocket results with Alpha brass. It was just as uniform on first firing as last few.
I use Lapua brass and have fired and reloaded it 30 times so far, I do anneal every firing with an " Annealeez " unit, I see no signs of splitting and primer pockets are still tight...................... nice video !!
I have a 6BR I'm running on Lapua brass and also have an Annealeez unit. I've never bothered to count firings on brass as I have a fair number of cases. After this I will expect the cases I have to last the rest of my life. :)
with pretty hot loads, my 284, 180g bullet annealed on the AMP I get around 10 before I see issues with Peterson brass. With my 7 prcw and less pressure my Lapua brass can go 15 to 20 and I never see issues. I think it depends on the pressure which has a lot of variables. That was a great video, thanks Gavin
Hey Gavin I think a really important thing to tell the viewers while you're referring to alpha brass is you cannot "work up" to pressure signs with alpha. Ive seen numerous times people running way over max charge with "room for more". A quick run through a reloading software and they're 10k+ psi over max. I met a guy who thought he "cracked the code" getting 250fps more than what book max was but when were ran it through GRT he was way over pressure. Alpha brass does a really good job at hiding pressure signs as you saw in the 308 to 300wm video.
With access to the high end pressure equipment I would love to see you pick a random sample of cartridges from the Hodgdon reloading center that only show CUP data and test the exact same load and see what the PSI results are. Maybe a couple of handgun loads and a couple of rifle. It would be amazing to compare actual data to the Fudd lore.
I didn't even know there was book data for this. I guess I'm running mine way past max! I'm only at 10 or 12 reloads. I anneal with the AMP every 3rd firing. I haven't lost a piece of brass yet. Also my 6.5 SAUM has many reloading on it (i could be in the area of 30 maybe) and I've only lost 2 or 3 pieces over the years. I'm a bit fan of annealing!
So I'm rather new to reloading. Do you test and anneal after every reloading of the brass? If so, ow does the Aztec sacrificial method work on subsequent brass that hasn't gone through the same torture test up that point? Does it matter or does the setting stay the same over time?
Could you do a video on the difference between IMR 4198 and Hodgon 4198 (H4198) Maybe include velocity differences in multiple calipers, pressure spikes and volume/case fill differences.
This is good stuff. It would be cool to see velocity measurements throughout the test, primer pocket measurements, and neck thickness. Also, not sure if you said it or not but was an expander button used on the sizing die? That will make a difference on case growth and neck thickness.
Great test. Well since you brought up brass flow on trims I would have liked to see you weight the case and at each trimming for how much brass flow you had. Just curious.
CCI BR4 cups are very tough compared to standard primers. It can handle very high pressures. On my 6.5CM I have about 180 fps difference for the max between the BR4 & the CCI400
Thank you for the information. I wonder regarding the direction of the crack. If caused by the pressure, the crack should be in axial direction (like a Wiener saussage when cooked to much). Radial direction looks like it originates from the resizing action, not from pressure, but from axial load, which does not happen in the chamber in this region.
Please do this with 38 Special/.357 magnum pistol brass. Can you anneal those? Is it worth it? Straight cases should be very different, very little brass flow? Perhaps depends more on how the crimp is done? I have searched and found NO specific data on number of reloads possible anywhere! Even this video was helpful. If that cartridge's primer pocket held up that well, I'm not worried about my revolver pockets . . . Thanks for doing this!
If you use cast bullets or heavy loads, you will need a crimp to keep the bullet from jumping. I usually get 6 to 8 loads out of a 357 or 44 case before the mouths start cracking. I have had primer pockets get loose on heavy 44 loads after about the same time. I've heard of people trimming 357 brass back to 38, but I would be concerned about case head separation.
Iv have loaded for 41 years ! funny iv seen some 300 weatherby brass crack the neck on the second firing IE garbage brass =super brittle brass and seen 20mm vulcan do the same thing crack in not annealed after 2 firings - yes im one of a hand full of people that have loaded 20 mm vulcan with a Dangerous Dave press and ch4d dies etc. vs 6 br lapua brass that lasts 60+ times etc etc.
Very cool but saving brass has diminishing returns the more you reload it. Based on the 62% increased amount of reloads per cartridge you guys found, I would have to shoot almost a quarter of a million rounds before I broke even on the annealing machine based on the prices where I live... Still cool though :)
Funny I was just finishing up in the tunnel and thinking - wonder what's up on Gavin too b. Apparently I haven't been annealing the brass often enough. Usually just once when new and once after fire forming. Have always been suspicious of cleaners alleged to embrittle brass. I'll try the machine and run with it a bit but not so much. 😊
Keep doing the tests on premium stuff Gavin, sooner or later some of these guys asking you to test the low end stuff will realize that it’s cheaper to run the premium components in the long run and finally make the switch and thanks to your testing can do it with confidence. And for those thinking im some yup i run mostly savage and howa rifles that I picked up on clearance to be able to afford them and premium components still make a huge difference in them as well.
I think you are on the right trail. Premium components save you money when you shoot a lot. By the time you prep inferior brass, there is time cost to that. I use Lapua in my match and varmint rifles. I use Starline in my" Old West" rifles. The Lapua gets annealed after every shot, the Starline about every 5 shots to avoid cracks at the crimp.
I'm not much interested in pushing anything into magnum power factors , but I like this test. Can you do it with something lower end such as Hornady bulk brass in something like 223Rem at max load as per the Hornady manual? I think us guys who really are on a budget would appreciate that to show us whether ponying up for the premium brass was worth the expense when we just can't afford stuff like Alpha, Lapua or Berger.
One method I used to obtain Lapua brass for testing was to go halves on an order of 100 cases with someone. Of the 50 cases that I have reloaded I don’t know how many times without annealing, I still have around 20 I’ve not yet touched. They look well used, they have scratches, but they’ve lasted all the same. Please consider splitting a box of 100 four ways and then you’ll know for yourself if it was worth it, at a manageable outlay. I also found starline to be good (but not sure the dimensions and primer pockets are optimal, still testing, and sako brass, nosler brass. I do not rate norma. Maybe it is the dies I have or the original case-head dimensions, but they are very tight in a BLR 308 everytime I re-use the norma cases. In summary, lapua, nosler, starline, in that order, are worth split ordering for your testing.
Very interesting never heard of this I've been reloading for 20 years... I've always been told that you can get a maximum of five reloads per brass... That person was way off lol...
It really depends on how good of brass you get. I've had Hornady 308 brass last 2-3 firings. And I've had expensive Peterson and Norma brass go 10+ on 30cal magnums.
I'll usually get 7 before the primer pocket gets too loose when I load my preferred load for 6.5 creedmoorwith Federal SRP brass. At normal pressure loads, I've seen 15-20 consistently and sometimes more.
Next experiment should be a more budget brass comparison between brands like PMC, LC, SL, Hndy, etc... see how long each one holds up and where they fail. Project Farm style!
Haha, I'm pretty sure Gavin has moved past budget brass.
That's not what this channel is about.
How about Starline? We got 13 firings before the primer pockets opened up, see: ruclips.net/video/F7TeGxXa3xs/видео.html
He probably does get as much kick back from the budget companies as he does the higher end companies
@@UltimatereloaderHow did Starline compare vs other top echelon brass brands?
$1700 for that fancy annealing tool is pretty crazy unless you're shooting thousands of rounds of rifle ammunition a year.
U should do this same using what 90% of reloaders have like a Rcbs press Rcbs / Lee dies and a regular annealing machine to see if u get different results . Great video as always
I would say this issue is one downside to Gavin's tests. He uses super high end, expensive gear that the average guy simply cannot afford. Its interesting to see but the info is somewhat limited for us normal people.
Yes, you do get different results
We need a side by side without annealing!!!
Very impressive results! Surprising performance from a single brass. We typically use an arbitrary number of firings for certain brass depending on pressure of that cartridge. Magnums no more than 5. Standard short actions 7-8, etc. We only recently have been annealing. I have been handloading everything(shotgun, handgun & rifle) since the mid 80s. But I have learned a good bit this past 8 years or so watching channels like this. Thank you so much.
Truly impressive results! Thank Gavin
I have been shooting Alpha brass in 6 BRA for 600 yard benchrest. Still using the same 100 pieces and confident over 30 firing each. Stopped counting. I also anneal with an AMP ever time.
Well I’m even more excited about my Alpha brass now! Two things I’d love to see in a test like this, chronograph info across all shots like ES and SD as well as using a primer pocket go no go gauge to verify primer fitment
Did we not track velocity or precision 😢
76 firings on a single case is insane. Would love to see velocity/pressure test on 6.5 CM.
I’ve done this test on 6BRA and have gotten between 50-57 on 20 pieces of BRA, 29 gr h4895, annealing every time bumping 2 tho, and sizing pretty aggressively with a 261 shoulder and a .2400 mandrel on each sizing. May have gotten more if I wasn’t so agressive in sizing as my necks started to tear, but had the same primer pocket results with Alpha brass. It was just as uniform on first firing as last few.
I use Lapua brass and have fired and reloaded it 30 times so far, I do anneal every firing with an " Annealeez " unit, I see no signs
of splitting and primer pockets are still tight...................... nice video !!
That's impressive!
Thanks for sharing. I use Lapua and Anbealeez with only 4 firings on my brass so far so this really gives an idea of what it might be capable of.
I have a 6BR I'm running on Lapua brass and also have an Annealeez unit. I've never bothered to count firings on brass as I have a fair number of cases. After this I will expect the cases I have to last the rest of my life. :)
with pretty hot loads, my 284, 180g bullet annealed on the AMP I get around 10 before I see issues with Peterson brass. With my 7 prcw and less pressure my Lapua brass can go 15 to 20 and I never see issues. I think it depends on the pressure which has a lot of variables. That was a great video, thanks Gavin
Hey Gavin I think a really important thing to tell the viewers while you're referring to alpha brass is you cannot "work up" to pressure signs with alpha. Ive seen numerous times people running way over max charge with "room for more". A quick run through a reloading software and they're 10k+ psi over max. I met a guy who thought he "cracked the code" getting 250fps more than what book max was but when were ran it through GRT he was way over pressure. Alpha brass does a really good job at hiding pressure signs as you saw in the 308 to 300wm video.
Wife walks through open door , next Netflix special 🤦🏻♂️
👈 I was thinking the same thing 😳
I was thinking the Amazon delivery guy!!
Hi, is this ...bang
Can we get a video with 6mm arc alpha munitions brass? Love these alpha brass torture tests.
Good stuff. Interesting info. Thanks!
Great video, thanks Gavin.
With access to the high end pressure equipment I would love to see you pick a random sample of cartridges from the Hodgdon reloading center that only show CUP data and test the exact same load and see what the PSI results are. Maybe a couple of handgun loads and a couple of rifle. It would be amazing to compare actual data to the Fudd lore.
This is hard to watch with your cameraman acting like they're on crystal meth.
Yes, please try the 6 ARC. Really didn't think you would get that many loadings out of the brass.
I'd like to see head to head alpha vs Lapua brass test
I don't handload, but this content is too good not to watch.
I didn't even know there was book data for this. I guess I'm running mine way past max! I'm only at 10 or 12 reloads. I anneal with the AMP every 3rd firing. I haven't lost a piece of brass yet. Also my 6.5 SAUM has many reloading on it (i could be in the area of 30 maybe) and I've only lost 2 or 3 pieces over the years. I'm a bit fan of annealing!
So I'm rather new to reloading. Do you test and anneal after every reloading of the brass? If so, ow does the Aztec sacrificial method work on subsequent brass that hasn't gone through the same torture test up that point? Does it matter or does the setting stay the same over time?
Fifty pieces of the Alpha Munitions brass will probably outlast the barrel, I’m sure 100 pieces of new Alpha brass would according to this test.
Could you do a video on the difference between IMR 4198 and Hodgon 4198 (H4198)
Maybe include velocity differences in multiple calipers, pressure spikes and volume/case fill differences.
Where is Guy Miner? He sometimes replies to me in the comments. I'm curious if he will be in any videos coming up?
Guy is working on a LOT of cool stories!!!!!
I figured primer pocket would stretch a lot more. That Alpha brass is good stuff!!
This is good stuff. It would be cool to see velocity measurements throughout the test, primer pocket measurements, and neck thickness. Also, not sure if you said it or not but was an expander button used on the sizing die? That will make a difference on case growth and neck thickness.
Really wish alpha made 6.5 PRC brass. Interested in a comparison like many others, such as atlas
Great test. Well since you brought up brass flow on trims I would have liked to see you weight the case and at each trimming for how much brass flow you had. Just curious.
What field watch are you wearing?
Very interesting and insightful experiment. Would be curious to compare the case weight at the end with the original starting weight.
Let's do some barrel life testing.
CCI BR4 cups are very tough compared to standard primers. It can handle very high pressures. On my 6.5CM I have about 180 fps difference for the max between the BR4 & the CCI400
Thank you for the information. I wonder regarding the direction of the crack. If caused by the pressure, the crack should be in axial direction (like a Wiener saussage when cooked to much). Radial direction looks like it originates from the resizing action, not from pressure, but from axial load, which does not happen in the chamber in this region.
Are you trimming the case at all or just resizing and reloading
Watch the video :)
@Ultimatereloader I did maybe I missed it I will watch it again
Yep i missed it thanks for the video Gavin have a great night @Ultimatereloader
My 6.5 creed saved me the trimming process 👍
Please do this with 38 Special/.357 magnum pistol brass. Can you anneal those? Is it worth it? Straight cases should be very different, very little brass flow? Perhaps depends more on how the crimp is done? I have searched and found NO specific data on number of reloads possible anywhere! Even this video was helpful. If that cartridge's primer pocket held up that well, I'm not worried about my revolver pockets . . . Thanks for doing this!
If you use cast bullets or heavy loads, you will need a crimp to keep the bullet from jumping. I usually get 6 to 8 loads out of a 357 or 44 case before the mouths start cracking. I have had primer pockets get loose on heavy 44 loads after about the same time. I've heard of people trimming 357 brass back to 38, but I would be concerned about case head separation.
Really good video Gavin. I'm on 14 firings on my 6mm BRA Alpha brass with no sign of fatigue at all...Nice to know I've got a way to go!
Would you prefer Alpha brass over lapua brass these days?
Do you think annealing would enhance the longevity of most calibers regardless of brand?
Yes, of course. It will mostly prevent split necks.
I would like to see a test, Alpha Munition vs Lapua brass. What does others think of this idea? 🇺🇸USA VS FINLAND 🇫🇮
Great! Incredible result, but...
Next time, bring a control brass that is not annealed.
How many brass can you buy for the price of that annealer?
Amazing results
6gt from before they went to OCD got me 46 firings. No annealing.
Given the lifespan of a 6 Dasher barrel it looks like you could get by with two boxes of brass for eight barrels 😊
I'd be interested in seeing if you used a standard flame annealing if you could get anywhere near the same number?
You should analyze that 76 fired brass in the amp and see what it shows for a code after that torture.
The AMP code would be based on the metallurgical makeup of the case. That won't change over firings.
@ try it and see. Be interesting to know for sure
Did you clean the barrel during your test and Check for carbon ring so you wasn’t getting pressure
Iv have loaded for 41 years ! funny iv seen some 300 weatherby brass crack the neck on the second firing IE garbage brass =super brittle brass and seen 20mm vulcan do the same thing crack in not annealed after 2 firings - yes im one of a hand full of people that have loaded 20 mm vulcan with a Dangerous Dave press and ch4d dies etc. vs 6 br lapua brass that lasts 60+ times etc etc.
Very cool but saving brass has diminishing returns the more you reload it. Based on the 62% increased amount of reloads per cartridge you guys found, I would have to shoot almost a quarter of a million rounds before I broke even on the annealing machine based on the prices where I live... Still cool though :)
What did the group look like?
Funny I was just finishing up in the tunnel and thinking - wonder what's up on Gavin too b. Apparently I haven't been annealing the brass often enough. Usually just once when new and once after fire forming. Have always been suspicious of cleaners alleged to embrittle brass. I'll try the machine and run with it a bit but not so much. 😊
I have never seen a shoulder do that !
Id be curious to see thos test woth 6.5 grendel because the grendel has very long brass life in my experience (with annealing)
Keep doing the tests on premium stuff Gavin, sooner or later some of these guys asking you to test the low end stuff will realize that it’s cheaper to run the premium components in the long run and finally make the switch and thanks to your testing can do it with confidence.
And for those thinking im some yup i run mostly savage and howa rifles that I picked up on clearance to be able to afford them and premium components still make a huge difference in them as well.
I think you are on the right trail. Premium components save you money when you shoot a lot. By the time you prep inferior brass, there is time cost to that.
I use Lapua in my match and varmint rifles. I use Starline in my" Old West" rifles. The Lapua gets annealed after every shot, the Starline about every 5 shots to avoid cracks at the crimp.
I'm not much interested in pushing anything into magnum power factors , but I like this test. Can you do it with something lower end such as Hornady bulk brass in something like 223Rem at max load as per the Hornady manual? I think us guys who really are on a budget would appreciate that to show us whether ponying up for the premium brass was worth the expense when we just can't afford stuff like Alpha, Lapua or Berger.
One method I used to obtain Lapua brass for testing was to go halves on an order of 100 cases with someone. Of the 50 cases that I have reloaded I don’t know how many times without annealing, I still have around 20 I’ve not yet touched. They look well used, they have scratches, but they’ve lasted all the same. Please consider splitting a box of 100 four ways and then you’ll know for yourself if it was worth it, at a manageable outlay. I also found starline to be good (but not sure the dimensions and primer pockets are optimal, still testing, and sako brass, nosler brass. I do not rate norma. Maybe it is the dies I have or the original case-head dimensions, but they are very tight in a BLR 308 everytime I re-use the norma cases.
In summary, lapua, nosler, starline, in that order, are worth split ordering for your testing.
I would like to see somebody do a test to deliver 1,000 ft pounds at 400 yd. Any caliber any muzzle velocity. Less than 24 inches drop
Where is guy?
My record is 16 with starline. 6 creed.
Always wanted to be the first person to comment.
Play on 1.25x speed. you're welcome
Very interesting never heard of this I've been reloading for 20 years... I've always been told that you can get a maximum of five reloads per brass... That person was way off lol...
It really depends on how good of brass you get. I've had Hornady 308 brass last 2-3 firings. And I've had expensive Peterson and Norma brass go 10+ on 30cal magnums.
Also case dimensions, toughness, load pressure, die and chamber compability, among other variables matter a lot.
I'll usually get 7 before the primer pocket gets too loose when I load my preferred load for 6.5 creedmoorwith Federal SRP brass. At normal pressure loads, I've seen 15-20 consistently and sometimes more.
My 7 mags always have the primer pockets go out first but that’s with Hornady brass.
Awesomeness :)