@rndThursday I'm going to have to disagree with you on that; the antler shield was just a worse razor wire. The elusive antlers will help balance out the item pool a bit while also having synergy with fmp. Antler shield didn't even have synergy with hellfire tincture because it required you to take damage from an enemy.
NGL I'm with you on it keeping a similar effect with numbers adjustments. Antlers, noxious thorn, warped echo, and bolstering lanturn open a design space for a thorns build, reward taking damage and hovering around 50% hp. We have a lot of synergies for things like up front loaded damage, on hit, on kill etc, and the current 'thorns' build is just hellfire tincture + lots of razorwire. Fix the bugs, increase the numbers, make noxious thorn stronger (like a poison that weakens their damage done + the current effect of adding additional stacks of debuffs), maybe add new effect that gives armor the lower the health you're at, or a red item that doubles your bonus HP. On taking damage effects can synergize with rex or seeker (soujourn) already, and they seem to have designed a lot of items around False Son with bonus HP being his damage scaling, promoting tanky builds. As is, the game becomes very glass cannon. You one shot everything and everything one shots you, there's definitely some space to add more bulky/thorns style builds. More bonus HP with varying scaling, more armor, more flat reduction, and some thorns effects that happen pre-mitigation and have ~relevant~ damage. Downside of thorn type builds is if the numbers are too high/build is ~too~ tanky, it could become very uninteractive BUT I think there's plenty of space to design in without hitting that point. Malachite + Twisted elites already work somewhat as a counter. Balancing around eclipse 8 shouldn't be the move, but I'm sure some tweaks could be made here as well to reduce the permanent damage taken.
@@Construct_32 best way to balance current antler is having it do percent damage. The % of health you lose to an enemy is multiplied by some constant dictated by the stack count, then dealt to the enemy as a % of their max health. Don't give it proc coefficient so that it doesn't make razorwire redundant.
so true !!!11!! i HATE it when items i get are weak that's why i play with command on 100% of the times !! so good, all items should be the bestest items they be
@@cheeseistaken Balance is of course important but the ratio at the moment is skewed towards bad items and lacking stats you might want especially compared to pre-dlc. Speed, good damage and healing are all rarer while auto scrap items are more common.
Idk man, theres a huge difference between niche and just bad. You use Death Mark and ICBM as examples of "bad" items, but they're items that, while bad most of the time, have a clear niche that they fulfill very well if you can achieve that niche. Antler Shield just doesn't have that, and isnt even unique in its own right, being just a far worse razorwire that doesn't synergize with things like Tincture, Sojourn, Void Fog, etc. It has no real niche, and even its current effect just isnt consistent or even worth trying to proc because of how weak it is. Thats not to say it couldnt simply be buffed to work somewhat differently while still keeping the flavor (making it proc off of all damage instead of damage from enemies, or changing how its damage is calculated, or giving armor in addition to its existing effect or something), but my main point is that it has no actual niche or synergy with anything outside of just having armor or something.
you said exactly what I was thinking. That should be the golden standard, to change bad items to be bad sometimes. It keeps the good items in the RNG pool and preserves the sanctity of the rougelike. edit: also antler shield was not just bad, it was absolutely dogshit. Enemies do basically no damage compared to their extremely high health pool, so making antler shield a health point based effect instead of a % based effect just made it completely useless. So yeah, so much worse than just "niche"
I think the big thing with buffing Antler Shield is that if you buff it, you just end up with a weak Razorwire. If it remains redundant while buffed, and so weak it's useless in its current state, it deserves a full rework imo.
A "bad" item is an item that has eitherr a very minor use or is good in certain situations..not automatic scrap bad. Like white scrap unused makes me feel better than having antlers because now i have to find a scrapper first. Also for the sake of item saturation we need some generic stats boost here and there. a single movementspeed items per DLC is not just good, but a requirement. The amount can be adjusted acordingly. Hybrid items like Mocca are great. less slots taken for basic needs. love it. more room for weird or niche items. As SOS stands now it's just mostly garbadge or bugged. havnt regretted refunding it yet and just DLC 1 is still really fun. Far better. The DLC as it stands now makes the game worse. 15 bucks to make your game worse. what?
false son "impactful" probably meant in terms of aesthetics, like i heard they did with his slam. I think people wee saying he felt "unpolished" with animations, so the feedback of using Spikes and Giant Daddy Death Laser is probably getting increased this time.
rnd I love you but saying that getting rid of Antler Shield is bad because "there's no other item like it in the game" isn't a good argument. There's no other item like that in the game (except razorwire) because it's a dogshit effect lol. If reflecting damage meant blocking it then it would be interesting but still not very interesting, and as it stands it's a worse, more inconsistent razorwire.
not to mention the amount of health enemies have in the later game is a lot more than what they deal, so any damage reflected back to them is gonna be equivalent to maybe a really hard sneeze, and thats it
the reason i like elusive antlers is cause they diluted the loot pool so movement speed became to rare also nothing should reward you for taking damage
@@commanderdemonno9819 Razor wire and roll of pennies have niches with the hellfire tincture. Antler shield requires you to take damage from an enemy to do damage, so it isn't useful.
@@commanderdemonno9819 roll of pennys and razorwire give you a benefit for taking small amounts of damage and dot's not getting hit by a truck cause they don't scale with the damage taken
Medkit, pennies, razorwire... but I get what you mean. Worth noting that Antler didn't even work on self-inflicted damage, so it wasn't even a "white rarity Razorwire," it was worse. It only worked when an enemy hit you. If it worked like a weaker razorwire, it might've at least had some niche.
I cannot understand why you hate the Antler shield change. While I do agree you could have introduced a new item giving movement speed, the very idea of an item proccing when you are hit is just absolute trash and goes against everything the game tries to teach you (especially in Eclipse), let alone an item that depends on the enemies dmg. It isnt even unique. It is literally razorwire, but worse. You dont need razorwire AND antlers, because razorwire already clears the wisps, so antlers has no use. The similarity between razorwire and antlers is way too close, so it really isnt unique. And of course, a movement item was desperately needed, but I dont think we need to argue over that.
I believe this new version of antlers is actually goated, having a movement speed item that promotes a close quarters run and gun style of play is good, yes old antlers was unique but it didn’t empower any other items and even if its extremely unique it just was bad. Going crazy with broach and new antlers or speeding from kill to kill and healing with monster tooth is empowering, Idk why he keeps saying it doesn’t have synergy. Unique items are good but not when they don’t add anything to a run by being weak.
look mate, i get being upset that they're turning a unique item like antler shield into a movement speed monster tooth -(despite not being all that unique cause razorwire exists)- but I don't particularly care about how unique an item is when it's just straight up dog shit here's an example: level 30 commando vs level 50 elder lemurian you have 1,067 health, while its fireball deals 345.6 damage if it hits directly so if you have an antler shield, you take a third of your health bar to have a 50% chance of dealing back 34.56 damage. the elder lemurian has 14,130 health. the reflected damage is _less than_ *0.25% of its health bar* okay, so lets increase the antler shields to 11. you now have a 100%(?) chance of dealing back 380.16 damage. that is 2.69% of its health bar. if you instead got 11 watches, you'd be dealing 261.12 damage to it with your primary. 6 times per second. (ignoring falloff, which would reduce it to half above 60 meters, which would still be more than antler shield) and no, it doesn't get better if the elder lemurian is level 99. yes, the antler shields would deal more damage, but it would still be less than your primary with watches, especially when taking into account that you're either gonna have other items that deal damage or would have been dead 30 minutes ago. and antler shield has 0.3 proc coeff compared to your primary's 1.0
Oh yes because we all love items that triggers when you take damage, the one thing that you don't wanna incourage at all cost Different doesn't instantly mean nice dude
j@@postmental_thoughts I scrap Razorwire and Roll of Pennies as soon as I find a scrapper, only exception being Rex. Medkit is one of the most consistent and goated healing items since it basically more often than not nullifies damage after a delay by healing you right back up meaning you can be more agressive and take more risks. It doesn't REQUIRE damage to work, it just helps you when you inevitably do take damage. Items that require taking damage to do anything are complete dogshit. The whole entirety of ROR2 is based and teaches you the the art of taking as little damage as possible, while items like Antler Shield and Razorwire do the opposite, which makes them bad items. Glad the Antler is getting changed.
The thing that makes those items stand out when compared to Antler Shield is that any amount of damage gives the same effect. Flat damage, flat healing, flat amount of money. If you take 1 damage, you get the full effect of these items. This means you can purposely get hit by smaller attacks to get these effects. Antler shield doesn't do that, making it much worse. The items you listed have a niche, and Antler Shield will maybe deal 50 damage back to that Elder Lemurian that just one shot you. @@postmental_thoughts
Everything you said about Antler Shield is completely wrong. Its a bad concept, its also just poorly designed and underpowered Razorwire so its not "unique" also you complain it throws off balance when we are in desperate need of more movement items. They could have reworked it to be a defensive item but there were already enough of those and the dlc didnt add a single movespeed item.
antler shield rework is great. i understand where you’re coming from but with all the white items in the game i think it’s great to add another move speed item. i believe there is only like 5 items that give any kind of movement and one of those is hunters harpoon so personally i’m excited to have another move speed item
Antler shield is a terrible item, but I love the idea of it. All it really needed was a damage buff and maybe like a bit more consistency (like make it have a higher chance to proc when you take a bigger chunk of damage of something). I think just entirely trashing the whole item is not good and I hope they don't do this with all the items because most of them just need stat reworks and buffs to be good.
you gotta stop defending antler shield man, theres no place for an item like that even if it had a 100% chance. Also longstanding is of course a very powerful item, but the real drawback is the fact that if you pick it up the game becomes a bit boring, cool to get halfway through a run tho
I feel like I saw you do this with the SotS trailer reaction video too. You take your first interpretation, assumption, really, and roll with it, becoming unnecessarily critical of absolutely everything and having knee jerk negative reactions to change. You assumed that this was just going to be buffing everything, even though it could very easily just be focusing on buffs for the video because people generally like hearing about buffs and dislike too weak items more than too strong items. Some of those items put up for changes are clearly too powerful. It is obvious that there are going to be nerfs. You assumed that making the False Son's abilities more impactful would be buffing them, even though that could just be aesthetic changes, given they do feel unpolished in that regard. And the Antler Shield take? Um... I agree with other commenters, that one's just bad. Antler Shield and Knockback Fin are irredeemable. Unstable Transmitter too. And War Bonds a bit. The rest can probably be worked with.
The Antler change is great. With this new DLC came no speed items, which dilutes the loot pool. And although the antler ability is nice on paper, it's not great in practice for how it was implemented. Damage isn't the best and the enemy health bars are too massive for it to do much. Plus the reflect only works with enemy attacks, not damage in general, so it loses synergy with some items unlike razor wire or pennies. Not saying the idea of reflecting damage is bad, but the way it was put in is bad, and having speed and defense as the new use is better
Elusive antlers giving barrier does load too much into a white item, but having monster tooth but speed is fine imo as they added more white items so any speed is good
dude my friend lost all of his progress in ror2. Im not sure exactly how many DAYS he had but it was all lost and all he did was log into ror2. I feel so bad cause he is so passionate abt ror2 and for all of his progress to just be wiped out with no explanation is so sad. If anyone has any type of explanation, please comment. He plays on Xbox series X
ya it’s a bug with the update. gearbox managed to take my favorite rouge like ever and mess it up so bad that it’s hard to wanna hop on at all. not to mention the countless people who’s saves were 100% wiped on x box.
There are a lot of reports of this happening, check to make sure you're using the right profile for ror2 though at the top right of the main menu, a lot of people thought their saves were wiped when in reality it was just that ror2 had made a new profile and set it as the default one in game
4:16 you mentioned proc coefficient for antler shield, but it only has 0.3 proc coefficient, while razor wire has 0.5. Also, for antler shield to deal the same percent damage as razor wire, you'd need 16 antler shields, which takes up a lot of item economy, and still only hits 1 enemy per attack you take. Compare this to razor wire, which hits 5 enemies with just 1 item, and deals 160% of your damage to all of them. Also, doing the math, you would need to be hit at least 35 times with one antler shield to kill a single lesser wisp if both of you are level 1. Razor wire needs 2 hits in the same scenario. On average, the antler shield would actually need 70 hits from that same lesser wisp due to it's chance of activating. You would be dead from taking that much damage if it weren't for regen, and likely would be if you were playing on monsoon or eclipse.
16:58 I guarantee you this is because casual players don't know what Lunar Spikes debuff does and don't know you can hold Laser of the Father to charge it lol. I can't think of another explanation. Like yeah, if you just tap R with Laser of the Father, it sucks. I can see lots of players doing that and then whining to Gearbox that it's underpowered.
That noxious thorn bug should literally just be what it does! Like imagine if noxious thorn could make monsters turn on eachother and fight for you?? (Like beetle guard) Original concept and its rl good
Elusive antlers is an actual transformative item that takes the item pool into account, it just looks fun and had a fundamental player expression and decision making with the very fundamental concept of it, even if very small and unconscious this new layer of strategy should 100% be welcomed and unless it's glitched, d it's shaping up to be an amazingly designed item Antler shield is just a fundamentally flawed item where if buffed it would be way too strong on specifically mithrix to an absurd amount or otherwise would do utterly nothing
I believe the significant change with runic lens is something about it being able to proc itself/items that had already previously procced in the chain resulting in infinite proc chains with enough clovers. Hoping that’s the change at least, this thing feels to me like it’s been the culprit of some crashes during long command sacrifice runs since the dlc came out
I think they're going to improve False Son's animations... Hopefully. A lot of people complained about that. But yeah, buffing all items is a weird idea, could backfire
i think what they mean by making the laser of the father more impactful is not damage but making it FEEL more impactful, like sound effects n stuff prob
Antler shield was bad but I agree them just slapping on movement speed to antler shield is pretty lame and it makes me worried that they are not gonna try and tweak the items but instead just scrap them all and make them just give you stat buffs as a lazy way to create synergy. But we have to wait and see the rest.
tbh if they want to make it more "impactful", the best way to do it is to take notes off Pillowblaster's doom mods. man's a master of making things *FEEL* impactful.
I get what you mean with the antler sheild thing, but tbh i think i would prefer more early movement than having a chance to do something a green does guaranteed. Antler sheild tends to feel like its doing nothing especially if you are avoiding damage. Another early grasp for barrier and speed would help
i'm sad about the antler shield not being changed or buffed into shield synergy. imagine it gave shield on first pickup, stacking increased the odds, and it reflects damage on proc when shield is up, and refreshes a bit of shield when it procs when you don't have shield.
It seems the idea Elusive Antlers is similar to Mocha. Instead of flooding the white item pool with another item that can make getting goat hooves, energy drinks or topaz brooch harder to get. They decided to combine some items together.
I understand wanting bad items that are hyper niche and otherwise pretty useless, but i feel like Antler Shield doesn't accomplish that. Lets compare it yp another white item that encourages takeing damage. Roll of Pennies: If the first item you pick up in a run is roll of pennies, it changes how you play slightly. It might encourage you to stop attacking, and take a few attacks fron a beetle or lenurian melee for the cash to buy your next item. It only takes twelve hits to grant you enough money to buy a small chest. It is also a great synergy with Hellfire Tincture. Antler shield does not change how you play. When that same beetle spawns, youll just shoot it like normal. That is because there is no outstanding condition where you would want to be attacked by an enemy in order to deal more damage. It does not reward you proportionally to what it takes to activate. It also ONLY works when you are attacked by an enemy, on a 55% chance at base stack. It just doesnt do anything. If you want to keep it the same, make it a 100% chance to trigger, and double the damage to 200% per stack, then maybe itll be atleast something.
I think items that require you to get hit are not healthy for the game. I think in another universe where the time to kill in ror is longer, items that require you to get hit might be okay, but unless you play on drizzle your goal should be to NEVER get hit in this game. Things kill you so fast and you lose important items like elixir and watch when taking damage, most items should NOT encourage you to get hit. I do agree they can't just buff all the items, that will create a "sugar high" which would be bad.
Unique ideas doesn’t mean good ideas. Adding three items that encourage you to take damage in order for them to do literally anything is not a good thing. I take damage only a few times per stage. It just isn’t a good idea. Especially items that require you to take damage from an enemy is a terrible idea. Have a great day. Obviously you’re not a bad person because of bad opinions so all the people getting genuinely angry because this man likes antler shield, ya’ll are ridiculous.
I could go either way on antler shield vs elusive antlers bc buffed antler shield would be kinda like if razor wire and tougher times had a baby so it wouldn't be super unique. I think I don't like how elusive antler gives you movespeed and also drops the movespeed orbs. Maybe it's a small thing but the active effect on its own seems fine. It could even be changed to instead give you a burst of movement speed on your shift/movement ability or during the first second or two of your sprint to act as a kind of dodge? Idk it doesn't feel unique either way
The bad thing about removing redundant items is that sometimes a redundant item will help you overcome the way the item scales when u get +1 of if, like having 5 of the same movement speed item versus 5 different movement speed items, the different items are going to create a much stronger reaction
The antler shield rework was needed because it tries to fill an already filled niche but badly. The reason why chance on hit wasn’t in the game before is because it’s practically useless. The only case you would want that is if you’re doing a tincture build and even then, guaranteed effects on taking damage and defensive items provide a lot more value. The fact that Elusive antler is an on kill effect with barrier already lends itself to on kill builds and even self damage builds by offering to prevent yourself from taking self damage. And the reason why this is considered a rebalancing of the loot pool is because the DLC put in a bunch of items that don’t fit into any of the preexisting and meta niches which clog up the loot pool, so having these items do different things, especially rewarding the play styles intended by the original developers, is healthy for the game and betters the experience.
I think you're wrong about the antler rework. The item has a really unique mechanic, agreed, but I don't think it works very well with the game and I don't see a way to really tweak it to make it better. Every time I have antlers they don't feel like they're doing anything and it's just another item that bloats the loot pool and makes it harder to get better items, like movement items.
Besides all the content they added ROR2 seekers of the storm event wise is empty it feels empty, there is nothing to be proud that you found besides unlocking chef there are no secret events that make you say ohh and to justify the price we paid.
I mean, I'm not against these change. Antler shield was a nice item but it's unplayable with doppelganger run which I often do with friends. However I'm not convinced about this item giving "speed" stats. That's a fucking antler? Give it something else which can be cool for anyone
I loved old bison steak. It would've paired well with fmp. In most gamemodes it was an alright item, in eclipse it would be a must have, seeing how it is a better monster tooth or med-kit in high eclipse.
I kinda like the idea of an antler sheild that has its numbers changed to be something upsurd (like 10% to reflect 500% damage where extra stacks add +5% chance and +100% more damage.) But unless they were going to do something silly like that it was kind of a waste of an item. The only way to make reflecting damage good is to give it absurd multipliers at base.
surprised about the noxious thorn change. I assumed that was the intent, since it's just a worthless version of Razorwire if i'm not mistaken. Shoulda made it Void(-adjacent) Razorwire.
Trash items are items that don't benefit any of the survivors at any given point. You could scrap it, but given any survivor, there's always scrappable items that can be picked up White items, up until before the Gearbox acquisition, from stage 1, would either offer -significant boost with the right 1 or 2 survivors (medkit on REX/crowbar on huntress/backup mag on huntress/tipdagger on commando) -decent boost with maybe half the cast of survivors (crit glasses/mocha/syringe/hooves) -or a little boost to all survivors (topaz brooch/armor) And this is also to say that some were useless to some characters (shield on REX, which would never regen the shield) Antler shield was trash because, for a white item, it doesn't even give a boost to REX, whose whole schtick is to self-damage to impart damage, at any point. So it's not just useless for the one specific survivor, but to all survivor Add insult to injury: Sure you can scrap it, but you know what else you can scrap? another scrap item that you already have in your inventory that could've just had another stack added and not the item that was made just to make loot rolling more frustrating. Rolling bad loot doesn't make the game more difficult, it makes it more frustrating. The game has a design in it that would even punish over looting good items: Mithrix
I dont get how you arent seeing that this is EXACTLY what they needed to do. Antler shield as an item would've needed to be significantly changed to be even passable, and isnt even completely unique within the dlc regardless (noxious thorn triggers a retaliatory effect upon damage taken). Changing that to a movement item is a very valid choice considering both the expansions added no new movement speed.
Also cant believe how aggressive people are about antler shield. Whether it’s good or bad, why not keep the goofy niche items goofy and niche and add another item for movement speed. Or buff older items with movement speed, like just flat out giving monster teeth the speed buff
They shoulda buffed Antler Shield's reflection damage and just tacked on a 7.5% MS bonus a la Mocha. I don't think anyone would complain about that. Keep the unique effect, and add an MS item into the loot pool.
Honesty i wanted to disagree with you saying antlers dont need to be scrapped but the more i think about it the more i kind of want to damage reflection to stay. I think they NEED to add more speed regardless of how we feel so why no both? Why not make it so you get reflection while sprinting maybe have it so you get 1 or 2 100% chances to reflect perstack with a regen time similar to spaces and tweak the amaound of damage reflected according to balance and then also give it a precent speed buff on top of that. I think that'd make everyone happy. They could keep the orbs too and make them the same or maybe have the orbs reduce the reflect cooldown.
Addition: This sounds op with a 100% reflect chance actually now that I read it back so a 10 or more second cooldown to balance would be nice and balanced
I would've liked Antlers to give armor, have a 100% to reflect damage, starting at 200% of the enemy's attack and getting +50% damage and more armor per stack. At higher stacks, that could be legitimately fun.
Antler Shield is terrible, especially since Mithrix Phase 4 exists. I'm almost certain the Hopoo team considered adding Repulsion Armour but they realised how OP that would be on Mithrix specifically so they turned it into Repulsion Armour Plate.
I get what youre saying about "you can't buff everything", however you also can't have 90% of the dlc items being straight up unusable scrap bait, death mark is useless until you have 3 debuffs, but once you have those debuffs it gives you a substantial damage buff, war horn isn't really useful until you have a good amount of fuel cells or gestures, but once you have them you get a pretty substantial attack speed buff It's fine for items to be circumstantial, it makes you think, ok will I have enough debuffs to proc death mark by the end of the run or am I better off scrapping it? Antler shield is a question about would you rather have +1 white scrap or an item that will deal 0.000001% damage to a boss' health late in the run IF you take damage. Yes we lose a meme build for command artifact, but other than that we don't really lose anything Also I wanted to touch on the point of "they will buff everything so everything will feel good" I don't really agree, they will buff everything so everything ntroduced in the dlc will feel on par with everything else in the game, chef feels really weak, I barely even see discourse on chef actually being a good survivor that doesn't need tweaks, as well as false son who is good if you abuse his passive, but other than that needs some animation tweaks, also seeker, her special needing you to be stationary to use breks a bit of the flow of the game that asks you to always be moving and her revive mechanic not working in single player takes away one of her main identities as a survivor, so I agree on making her being able to revive herself at least once in single player, would make her more unique. Items feel weak at best and useless at worse (the dlc introduced some really abusable items like chronic expansion, which is the best item in the game if you know how to abuse it, but also really useless items, again, the worst offender is antler shield, but you also have warbounds that gives you money at the beginning of the stageequivalent to 3 normal chests..... a red item btw, the same tier as lazer scope, teslacoil, brillaint behemoth, sonorous whispers, it doesn't feel good to get a warbounds out of the stage 4 legendary chest). Finally, the false son boss you either have to loop and make the boss a joke, as he doesn't scale as well as mythrix or voidling from my experience, or fight him in the first loop and make the experience extremely frustrating due to his attacks
I think I would be ok with antler shield if it was like 10% (+10% per stack) to reflect 3x damage taken back to nearby enemies reflecting an average of 5% damage back to enemies that have like 10x your health is beyond stupid though, and I'm perfectly fine with having another movement speed item to keep the balance
antler shield rework looks like its gonna feel the same as hunters harpoon and i for one do not like inconsistent movement speed outside of red whip or energy drink
i'm happy that they're fixing the bugs, making twisted elites not a instant game over (i can finally loop stages again yay) and gilded elites being less annoying (finally). chef needed a buff. i'm a little divided on the items. they are bad, but not like items in the binding of isaac (you take a pill and lose 1 heart and that's it), they won't make your run actively worse. yes, you could've got an atg instead of a noxious thorn. but bad items are meant to be in roguelike games. i've never seen someone complain about stoneflux pauldron being bad or razor wire being absolutely useless 99% of your runs. nor i've seen anybody say to rework bison steak bc it's borderline useless. these item changes are aimed only to the risk of rain 2 players, not all roguelike enjoyers that play risk of rain 2. gearbox maybe listened a little too much the community and the streamers. the rest of the update is 10/10 but the items... i don't think we need 7 full reworks. that feels unnecessary to me in every way. a very drastic change.
Antler shield losing its identity doesn't seem right to me. They could've made the reflected damage scale like 50% per stack or something ridiculous, reflection was so unique
And yes I'm aware that antler is a white and razorwire is a green but that honestly doesn't mean much to me Some whites are better than greens, and just that fact that the dlc was trying to add a worse razorwire that is a white version is just not it for me, plus the whole getting hit to damage enemy shouldn't be a common thing that you need multiple different items for it, I think one is enough and that one is razorwire, if you try to add more you just bloat the item pool with unnecessary things
I was thinking the antlers would be good with a higher chance on engi's turrets, not really for most runs. Kind of like how razorwire can synergize with REX's self-damaging abilities. But I guess not anymore.
I agree if they just buff the items or make them all good it is genuinely just bad for the game, I also wish more people would see that, though importantly while I agree some items shouldn't just be good they should still at least do something that is unique and has the potential to be good in the right instance. Imo all of the items they are giving a full rework aren't just bad but there are almost zero situations where they're good and that's the problem I see. Death mark is usually bad but that's because it's niche, it's only good once you have enough debuffs for it to work. This also promotes good synergies with other items like bleed or chronobauble. With many of the sots items though, this isn't the case. They are bad items not because they're rarely good, but because they're almost never good. They don't stand well on they're own and they don't have good synergies with almost any items to even make them good as a niche either. Ultimately I really agree, I don't just want the items to be buffed and made better, like yeah it's fun at first but then you're just spoiled and the game gets boring. I want them to be bad, but like a niche bad, similar to death mark, razorwire, planula, or even squid polyp. But since they don't fit that mold rn, I think Gearbox is honestly making the right move reworking the items. Though ofc I hope too that they are actually well thought out, bad items are important too.
antler shield if i recall is broken in eclipse in a bad way reflected dmg still applies to your max health down that eclipse does when you take dmg so its not worth it at all if im wrong and thats a different item someone correct me plz ill edit/ delete this
I think the antler shield is still going to suck. I think it's going to perform more like hunter harpoon where it's speed boost monster tooth. We need more speed items because when you don't loop you can just get 0 speed items because the limited loot you get the pool is getting bigger so you have less chance of getting any speed at all. I know, you just loop 8 trillion times so you probably haven't identified that as an issue to your play style
It will still help the lootpool if you're just having a bad run where you can't find any other standard movement items, which is not something that the Antlers did up to now - they were just scrap fodder. I agree that the Harpoon is a very bad and incosistent item, it has no right being green rarity, so hopefuly they learn from that item and how to implement the new Antlers better.
They could've changed the antlers to slightly damage enemies if you sprint into them, would make more sense for, you know, spiky antlers thing to do, instead of a speed boost.
i like a few effects of the itens effects but i dont like the itens. warped echo:warped echo just need a small fix so you dont get the double damage again. antler shield:should still have the "shield" part of it,but have the movement speed too because movement speed itens are rare now,so would be something. "increases movement speed in 6%{+6% per stack) and reflect damage in 100%(+50% per stack)" bolstering lantern:full rework,that item sucks. would be cool if they put the barrier orbs here(when hitting a enemy,drops orbs that increase ATTACK SPEED,damage and barrier) noxious thorn:rework:i really wanted it to be like toxin from rorr,a enemy gets close in melee range and they get weaken for a few secs. knockback fin:just make it like the boxing glove from rorr again,have a chance to pushing a enemy away when the enemy gets pushed it takes damage like fall damage. ( have 99% chance they will remove the knockback part of it and it...make me feel weird) warbonds:i really dont need a way of getting more money using a fucking red,reds are the reason you use all your gold on a legendary chest. just take the goldengun from rorr and put it on the warbonds,end. i have a weird feeling when i get "runic lens" and "boomerang". i think reds should not have a "chance" to work. none of the other reds have a "chance" to work except happiest mask(and happiest mask is dogshit). runic lens and boomerang should not have a chance to proc and instead do less damage and always proc so they feel more "red".
of course i also need some more defensive itens that help mitigate damage... it got really rare now and The dlc literally gave nothing except warped echo that really doesnt make you take less damage,you still take The same damage but in diferent times.
Knockback fin is keeping the knocking aspect of it, it also now stuns the enemies and makes them float slightly when knocked up in mid air as well as applying a debuff with presumably increases damage and presumably ends when they touch the ground
Hard disagree on that last point. Sometimes things need to feel powerful by hitting hard and less often. If you proportionally exchanged damage with proc chance on Runic Lens it'd do 5% of its current damage and proc'd on every hit you'd see a fuck ton of meteors, but they'd only hit with the all the power and strength of Commando's primary attack by dealing only 100% base damage on hit. Sounds really lame if you asked me. Not at all the effect that a gosh dang METEOR slamming into your foes should have, but making it any stronger and it'd be way too strong. The only red that can guarantee 100% more damage on enemies is Symbiotic Scorpion, and it takes getting 100 stacks of it's debuff on an enemy to do that. Additionally, there's a reason Plasma Shrimp is the ONLY 100% on-hit proc item in the game and that's because it's not performance-friendly to have proc effects like that going off willy-nilly. Finally, you're forgetting that Sentient Meat Hook is in the game. A red with a proc chance that, if it's effect was placed at 100% chance to proc, would easily make it one of the most broken item the the game for clumping enemies together and dealing huge AOE damage. It's already a much better Ukulele by having 10 targets and gaining 5 per stack, 100% damage, and a 1.0 proc coefficient with a lightly lower chance to proc at 20% with +%20(non-linear) more chance per stack.
They will never fix that or releases bugless dlcs in future (like first dlc survivors of the void). Why? Because they ported consope version on pc, yep. That bugger co ps version that they blamed (hoopo blamed) every time for their prolonged releases. Now we all have thar bug version
Survivors of the void being a bugless DLC??? Did everyone forget that the first weeks of that DLC the game was more unplayable than with the current DLC? You would spawn into a void seed every other stage, die instantly, one stack of collapse would be a guaranteed death no matter the items or the amount of health, investors would jump your drones and squid turrents killing you instantly, audio bugs were numerous with Plasma Shrimp being twice as loud as everything else etc. Also they added Voidling which is a dogshit boss. Items like Ben's Raincoat were also tweaked post launch. This DLC only had more bugs because it brought more content and was obviously rushed. People are giving Hopoo way too much credit when they were not that much better than Gearbox. Half of the current bugs are Hopoo's fault, many of their items from the days of early acess ROR2 are still bugged and were left bugged for good in the game like Queen's Gland). Also, them porting the console version to the PC was already debunked as being a myth.
if i were to take a stab they probably mean just extra vfx juice on those abilities. they do nice work but aesthetically they are so fucking horrible looking.
Starting my antler shield petition. One like = one antler shield
www.twitch.tv/rndthursday
@rndThursday I'm going to have to disagree with you on that; the antler shield was just a worse razor wire. The elusive antlers will help balance out the item pool a bit while also having synergy with fmp. Antler shield didn't even have synergy with hellfire tincture because it required you to take damage from an enemy.
Just make the old abilities of antler shield the void counterpart of elusive antlers with better numbers
NGL I'm with you on it keeping a similar effect with numbers adjustments. Antlers, noxious thorn, warped echo, and bolstering lanturn open a design space for a thorns build, reward taking damage and hovering around 50% hp.
We have a lot of synergies for things like up front loaded damage, on hit, on kill etc, and the current 'thorns' build is just hellfire tincture + lots of razorwire.
Fix the bugs, increase the numbers, make noxious thorn stronger (like a poison that weakens their damage done + the current effect of adding additional stacks of debuffs), maybe add new effect that gives armor the lower the health you're at, or a red item that doubles your bonus HP.
On taking damage effects can synergize with rex or seeker (soujourn) already, and they seem to have designed a lot of items around False Son with bonus HP being his damage scaling, promoting tanky builds.
As is, the game becomes very glass cannon. You one shot everything and everything one shots you, there's definitely some space to add more bulky/thorns style builds. More bonus HP with varying scaling, more armor, more flat reduction, and some thorns effects that happen pre-mitigation and have ~relevant~ damage.
Downside of thorn type builds is if the numbers are too high/build is ~too~ tanky, it could become very uninteractive BUT I think there's plenty of space to design in without hitting that point. Malachite + Twisted elites already work somewhat as a counter.
Balancing around eclipse 8 shouldn't be the move, but I'm sure some tweaks could be made here as well to reduce the permanent damage taken.
@@Construct_32 BIG!
@@Construct_32 best way to balance current antler is having it do percent damage.
The % of health you lose to an enemy is multiplied by some constant dictated by the stack count, then dealt to the enemy as a % of their max health.
Don't give it proc coefficient so that it doesn't make razorwire redundant.
rndthursday is gonna be mourning the loss of some of the worst most redundant items ever created lol
so true !!!11!! i HATE it when items i get are weak
that's why i play with command on 100% of the times !! so good, all items should be the bestest items they be
@@cheeseistaken delusional
based
@@cheeseistaken this but unironically. Runs getting ruined my repeated dogshit drops suck.
@@cheeseistaken Balance is of course important but the ratio at the moment is skewed towards bad items and lacking stats you might want especially compared to pre-dlc. Speed, good damage and healing are all rarer while auto scrap items are more common.
Idk man, theres a huge difference between niche and just bad.
You use Death Mark and ICBM as examples of "bad" items, but they're items that, while bad most of the time, have a clear niche that they fulfill very well if you can achieve that niche.
Antler Shield just doesn't have that, and isnt even unique in its own right, being just a far worse razorwire that doesn't synergize with things like Tincture, Sojourn, Void Fog, etc. It has no real niche, and even its current effect just isnt consistent or even worth trying to proc because of how weak it is.
Thats not to say it couldnt simply be buffed to work somewhat differently while still keeping the flavor (making it proc off of all damage instead of damage from enemies, or changing how its damage is calculated, or giving armor in addition to its existing effect or something), but my main point is that it has no actual niche or synergy with anything outside of just having armor or something.
you said exactly what I was thinking. That should be the golden standard, to change bad items to be bad sometimes. It keeps the good items in the RNG pool and preserves the sanctity of the rougelike.
edit: also antler shield was not just bad, it was absolutely dogshit. Enemies do basically no damage compared to their extremely high health pool, so making antler shield a health point based effect instead of a % based effect just made it completely useless. So yeah, so much worse than just "niche"
I think the big thing with buffing Antler Shield is that if you buff it, you just end up with a weak Razorwire. If it remains redundant while buffed, and so weak it's useless in its current state, it deserves a full rework imo.
A "bad" item is an item that has eitherr a very minor use or is good in certain situations..not automatic scrap bad. Like white scrap unused makes me feel better than having antlers because now i have to find a scrapper first.
Also for the sake of item saturation we need some generic stats boost here and there. a single movementspeed items per DLC is not just good, but a requirement. The amount can be adjusted acordingly. Hybrid items like Mocca are great. less slots taken for basic needs. love it. more room for weird or niche items.
As SOS stands now it's just mostly garbadge or bugged. havnt regretted refunding it yet and just DLC 1 is still really fun. Far better. The DLC as it stands now makes the game worse. 15 bucks to make your game worse. what?
Missles are pretty common, i definitely wouldn't call icbm bad.
ye i was so confused when he said it has synergies like it did??
false son "impactful" probably meant in terms of aesthetics, like i heard they did with his slam. I think people wee saying he felt "unpolished" with animations, so the feedback of using Spikes and Giant Daddy Death Laser is probably getting increased this time.
rnd I love you but saying that getting rid of Antler Shield is bad because "there's no other item like it in the game" isn't a good argument. There's no other item like that in the game (except razorwire) because it's a dogshit effect lol. If reflecting damage meant blocking it then it would be interesting but still not very interesting, and as it stands it's a worse, more inconsistent razorwire.
not to mention the amount of health enemies have in the later game is a lot more than what they deal, so any damage reflected back to them is gonna be equivalent to maybe a really hard sneeze, and thats it
@@casual5054 no this is actually so real the damage it reflects doesnt even do much other than just being a proc, literally its only use
the reason i like elusive antlers is cause they diluted the loot pool so movement speed became to rare also nothing should reward you for taking damage
razorwire
@@commanderdemonno9819 Razor wire and roll of pennies have niches with the hellfire tincture. Antler shield requires you to take damage from an enemy to do damage, so it isn't useful.
@@commanderdemonno9819 roll of pennys and razorwire give you a benefit for taking small amounts of damage and dot's not getting hit by a truck cause they don't scale with the damage taken
Medkit, pennies, razorwire... but I get what you mean. Worth noting that Antler didn't even work on self-inflicted damage, so it wasn't even a "white rarity Razorwire," it was worse. It only worked when an enemy hit you. If it worked like a weaker razorwire, it might've at least had some niche.
@@Skele10bro Tincture does not trigger pennies
Antlers were terrible. Even if it was a unique item they were just so ass
"Dont listen to all feedbacks, some of the feebacks i hear is bad"
After watching this video, I agree 👍 💯
Real bro I like heavy buffing some shitty items
I cannot understand why you hate the Antler shield change. While I do agree you could have introduced a new item giving movement speed, the very idea of an item proccing when you are hit is just absolute trash and goes against everything the game tries to teach you (especially in Eclipse), let alone an item that depends on the enemies dmg.
It isnt even unique. It is literally razorwire, but worse. You dont need razorwire AND antlers, because razorwire already clears the wisps, so antlers has no use. The similarity between razorwire and antlers is way too close, so it really isnt unique.
And of course, a movement item was desperately needed, but I dont think we need to argue over that.
I believe this new version of antlers is actually goated, having a movement speed item that promotes a close quarters run and gun style of play is good, yes old antlers was unique but it didn’t empower any other items and even if its extremely unique it just was bad. Going crazy with broach and new antlers or speeding from kill to kill and healing with monster tooth is empowering, Idk why he keeps saying it doesn’t have synergy. Unique items are good but not when they don’t add anything to a run by being weak.
how does it feel that half of items u said were good are getting reworked B)
That probes nothing warped echo most coated item in the game (if it wasn’t bugged with opal rn)
look mate, i get being upset that they're turning a unique item like antler shield into a movement speed monster tooth -(despite not being all that unique cause razorwire exists)- but I don't particularly care about how unique an item is when it's just straight up dog shit
here's an example: level 30 commando vs level 50 elder lemurian
you have 1,067 health, while its fireball deals 345.6 damage if it hits directly
so if you have an antler shield, you take a third of your health bar to have a 50% chance of dealing back 34.56 damage.
the elder lemurian has 14,130 health. the reflected damage is _less than_ *0.25% of its health bar*
okay, so lets increase the antler shields to 11. you now have a 100%(?) chance of dealing back 380.16 damage. that is 2.69% of its health bar.
if you instead got 11 watches, you'd be dealing 261.12 damage to it with your primary. 6 times per second. (ignoring falloff, which would reduce it to half above 60 meters, which would still be more than antler shield)
and no, it doesn't get better if the elder lemurian is level 99. yes, the antler shields would deal more damage, but it would still be less than your primary with watches, especially when taking into account that you're either gonna have other items that deal damage or would have been dead 30 minutes ago. and antler shield has 0.3 proc coeff compared to your primary's 1.0
Oh yes because we all love items that triggers when you take damage, the one thing that you don't wanna incourage at all cost
Different doesn't instantly mean nice dude
so medkit, roll of pennies and razorwire should all be changed too? lol
@@postmental_thoughtsthose items are good tho, antlers are just dogshit in its purest form
j@@postmental_thoughts I scrap Razorwire and Roll of Pennies as soon as I find a scrapper, only exception being Rex. Medkit is one of the most consistent and goated healing items since it basically more often than not nullifies damage after a delay by healing you right back up meaning you can be more agressive and take more risks. It doesn't REQUIRE damage to work, it just helps you when you inevitably do take damage.
Items that require taking damage to do anything are complete dogshit. The whole entirety of ROR2 is based and teaches you the the art of taking as little damage as possible, while items like Antler Shield and Razorwire do the opposite, which makes them bad items. Glad the Antler is getting changed.
@@postmental_thoughts rezorwire is dog shit
The thing that makes those items stand out when compared to Antler Shield is that any amount of damage gives the same effect. Flat damage, flat healing, flat amount of money. If you take 1 damage, you get the full effect of these items. This means you can purposely get hit by smaller attacks to get these effects. Antler shield doesn't do that, making it much worse. The items you listed have a niche, and Antler Shield will maybe deal 50 damage back to that Elder Lemurian that just one shot you. @@postmental_thoughts
it really is thursday
Oh shit
It's Friday from where I am
@@lemon-ityfake rnd fan 😧
Ikr, bro should just move timezones instead of watching rndfriday@callanlandis4300
He did the thing, it is the RND Thursday
Everything you said about Antler Shield is completely wrong. Its a bad concept, its also just poorly designed and underpowered Razorwire so its not "unique" also you complain it throws off balance when we are in desperate need of more movement items. They could have reworked it to be a defensive item but there were already enough of those and the dlc didnt add a single movespeed item.
sorry i can’t watch this until it’s not thursday, as is tradition
antler shield rework is great. i understand where you’re coming from but with all the white items in the game i think it’s great to add another move speed item. i believe there is only like 5 items that give any kind of movement and one of those is hunters harpoon so personally i’m excited to have another move speed item
"This item just sucks... What's it called? ... I don't even know." 😂 6:33
Antler shield is a terrible item, but I love the idea of it. All it really needed was a damage buff and maybe like a bit more consistency (like make it have a higher chance to proc when you take a bigger chunk of damage of something).
I think just entirely trashing the whole item is not good and I hope they don't do this with all the items because most of them just need stat reworks and buffs to be good.
you gotta stop defending antler shield man, theres no place for an item like that even if it had a 100% chance. Also longstanding is of course a very powerful item, but the real drawback is the fact that if you pick it up the game becomes a bit boring, cool to get halfway through a run tho
Dude, you’re completely insane. Your opinions make it sound like you’ve never played this game a day in your life
your discovery of holding down the mouse button on the youtube player to 2x the speed was also new to me, so thanks
always happy to help 🙂↕️
I feel like I saw you do this with the SotS trailer reaction video too. You take your first interpretation, assumption, really, and roll with it, becoming unnecessarily critical of absolutely everything and having knee jerk negative reactions to change. You assumed that this was just going to be buffing everything, even though it could very easily just be focusing on buffs for the video because people generally like hearing about buffs and dislike too weak items more than too strong items. Some of those items put up for changes are clearly too powerful. It is obvious that there are going to be nerfs. You assumed that making the False Son's abilities more impactful would be buffing them, even though that could just be aesthetic changes, given they do feel unpolished in that regard. And the Antler Shield take? Um... I agree with other commenters, that one's just bad. Antler Shield and Knockback Fin are irredeemable. Unstable Transmitter too. And War Bonds a bit. The rest can probably be worked with.
The Antler change is great. With this new DLC came no speed items, which dilutes the loot pool. And although the antler ability is nice on paper, it's not great in practice for how it was implemented. Damage isn't the best and the enemy health bars are too massive for it to do much. Plus the reflect only works with enemy attacks, not damage in general, so it loses synergy with some items unlike razor wire or pennies.
Not saying the idea of reflecting damage is bad, but the way it was put in is bad, and having speed and defense as the new use is better
Elusive antlers giving barrier does load too much into a white item, but having monster tooth but speed is fine imo as they added more white items so any speed is good
dude my friend lost all of his progress in ror2. Im not sure exactly how many DAYS he had but it was all lost and all he did was log into ror2. I feel so bad cause he is so passionate abt ror2 and for all of his progress to just be wiped out with no explanation is so sad. If anyone has any type of explanation, please comment. He plays on Xbox series X
Sounds like the console bug where pairing a second controller wipes your save file.
ya it’s a bug with the update. gearbox managed to take my favorite rouge like ever and mess it up so bad that it’s hard to wanna hop on at all. not to mention the countless people who’s saves were 100% wiped on x box.
@@person_man9882 he knows it wasn’t that glitch
Yea my data just disappeared 😢
There are a lot of reports of this happening, check to make sure you're using the right profile for ror2 though at the top right of the main menu, a lot of people thought their saves were wiped when in reality it was just that ror2 had made a new profile and set it as the default one in game
4:16 you mentioned proc coefficient for antler shield, but it only has 0.3 proc coefficient, while razor wire has 0.5. Also, for antler shield to deal the same percent damage as razor wire, you'd need 16 antler shields, which takes up a lot of item economy, and still only hits 1 enemy per attack you take. Compare this to razor wire, which hits 5 enemies with just 1 item, and deals 160% of your damage to all of them.
Also, doing the math, you would need to be hit at least 35 times with one antler shield to kill a single lesser wisp if both of you are level 1. Razor wire needs 2 hits in the same scenario. On average, the antler shield would actually need 70 hits from that same lesser wisp due to it's chance of activating. You would be dead from taking that much damage if it weren't for regen, and likely would be if you were playing on monsoon or eclipse.
RndThursday L, disputed origin W
The table goes 1-1
16:58 I guarantee you this is because casual players don't know what Lunar Spikes debuff does and don't know you can hold Laser of the Father to charge it lol. I can't think of another explanation. Like yeah, if you just tap R with Laser of the Father, it sucks. I can see lots of players doing that and then whining to Gearbox that it's underpowered.
That noxious thorn bug should literally just be what it does! Like imagine if noxious thorn could make monsters turn on eachother and fight for you?? (Like beetle guard) Original concept and its rl good
Disagree on antler its a dog shot ass item that doesn't really do anything
Elusive antlers is an actual transformative item that takes the item pool into account, it just looks fun and had a fundamental player expression and decision making with the very fundamental concept of it, even if very small and unconscious this new layer of strategy should 100% be welcomed and unless it's glitched, d it's shaping up to be an amazingly designed item
Antler shield is just a fundamentally flawed item where if buffed it would be way too strong on specifically mithrix to an absurd amount or otherwise would do utterly nothing
I believe the significant change with runic lens is something about it being able to proc itself/items that had already previously procced in the chain resulting in infinite proc chains with enough clovers. Hoping that’s the change at least, this thing feels to me like it’s been the culprit of some crashes during long command sacrifice runs since the dlc came out
9:34 it's 2.5% of your max hp and can be reduced by repulsion armor. having 1 for every 200 health (rounded up) makes it almost negligible
Shoutout to Risk of Rain OST!
I love that guy!
I think they're going to improve False Son's animations... Hopefully.
A lot of people complained about that.
But yeah, buffing all items is a weird idea, could backfire
i think what they mean by making the laser of the father more impactful is not damage but making it FEEL more impactful, like sound effects n stuff prob
Antler shield was bad but I agree them just slapping on movement speed to antler shield is pretty lame and it makes me worried that they are not gonna try and tweak the items but instead just scrap them all and make them just give you stat buffs as a lazy way to create synergy. But we have to wait and see the rest.
i get what you mean with the antler shield but i dont know what they could do that wouldn't turn it into basically another razor wire or tougher times
tbh if they want to make it more "impactful", the best way to do it is to take notes off Pillowblaster's doom mods. man's a master of making things *FEEL* impactful.
I get what you mean with the antler sheild thing, but tbh i think i would prefer more early movement than having a chance to do something a green does guaranteed. Antler sheild tends to feel like its doing nothing especially if you are avoiding damage. Another early grasp for barrier and speed would help
i'm sad about the antler shield not being changed or buffed into shield synergy. imagine it gave shield on first pickup, stacking increased the odds, and it reflects damage on proc when shield is up, and refreshes a bit of shield when it procs when you don't have shield.
It seems the idea Elusive Antlers is similar to Mocha. Instead of flooding the white item pool with another item that can make getting goat hooves, energy drinks or topaz brooch harder to get. They decided to combine some items together.
I understand wanting bad items that are hyper niche and otherwise pretty useless, but i feel like Antler Shield doesn't accomplish that.
Lets compare it yp another white item that encourages takeing damage. Roll of Pennies:
If the first item you pick up in a run is roll of pennies, it changes how you play slightly. It might encourage you to stop attacking, and take a few attacks fron a beetle or lenurian melee for the cash to buy your next item. It only takes twelve hits to grant you enough money to buy a small chest. It is also a great synergy with Hellfire Tincture.
Antler shield does not change how you play. When that same beetle spawns, youll just shoot it like normal. That is because there is no outstanding condition where you would want to be attacked by an enemy in order to deal more damage. It does not reward you proportionally to what it takes to activate. It also ONLY works when you are attacked by an enemy, on a 55% chance at base stack. It just doesnt do anything.
If you want to keep it the same, make it a 100% chance to trigger, and double the damage to 200% per stack, then maybe itll be atleast something.
I think items that require you to get hit are not healthy for the game. I think in another universe where the time to kill in ror is longer, items that require you to get hit might be okay, but unless you play on drizzle your goal should be to NEVER get hit in this game. Things kill you so fast and you lose important items like elixir and watch when taking damage, most items should NOT encourage you to get hit. I do agree they can't just buff all the items, that will create a "sugar high" which would be bad.
Unique ideas doesn’t mean good ideas. Adding three items that encourage you to take damage in order for them to do literally anything is not a good thing. I take damage only a few times per stage. It just isn’t a good idea. Especially items that require you to take damage from an enemy is a terrible idea.
Have a great day. Obviously you’re not a bad person because of bad opinions so all the people getting genuinely angry because this man likes antler shield, ya’ll are ridiculous.
I could go either way on antler shield vs elusive antlers bc buffed antler shield would be kinda like if razor wire and tougher times had a baby so it wouldn't be super unique. I think I don't like how elusive antler gives you movespeed and also drops the movespeed orbs. Maybe it's a small thing but the active effect on its own seems fine. It could even be changed to instead give you a burst of movement speed on your shift/movement ability or during the first second or two of your sprint to act as a kind of dodge? Idk it doesn't feel unique either way
12:20 who else started 2x'ing after having no idea it was a thing
Guilty as charged. I figured out you can do the same thing while holding space lol
The bad thing about removing redundant items is that sometimes a redundant item will help you overcome the way the item scales when u get +1 of if, like having 5 of the same movement speed item versus 5 different movement speed items, the different items are going to create a much stronger reaction
The antler shield rework was needed because it tries to fill an already filled niche but badly. The reason why chance on hit wasn’t in the game before is because it’s practically useless. The only case you would want that is if you’re doing a tincture build and even then, guaranteed effects on taking damage and defensive items provide a lot more value. The fact that Elusive antler is an on kill effect with barrier already lends itself to on kill builds and even self damage builds by offering to prevent yourself from taking self damage. And the reason why this is considered a rebalancing of the loot pool is because the DLC put in a bunch of items that don’t fit into any of the preexisting and meta niches which clog up the loot pool, so having these items do different things, especially rewarding the play styles intended by the original developers, is healthy for the game and betters the experience.
I think you're wrong about the antler rework. The item has a really unique mechanic, agreed, but I don't think it works very well with the game and I don't see a way to really tweak it to make it better. Every time I have antlers they don't feel like they're doing anything and it's just another item that bloats the loot pool and makes it harder to get better items, like movement items.
Besides all the content they added ROR2 seekers of the storm event wise is empty it feels empty, there is nothing to be proud that you found besides unlocking chef there are no secret events that make you say ohh and to justify the price we paid.
I mean, I'm not against these change. Antler shield was a nice item but it's unplayable with doppelganger run which I often do with friends. However I'm not convinced about this item giving "speed" stats. That's a fucking antler? Give it something else which can be cool for anyone
to be fair, a harpoon and a shoulderpad also give speed.
I often end up scrapping speed items or get some Pauldron :')
I loved old bison steak. It would've paired well with fmp. In most gamemodes it was an alright item, in eclipse it would be a must have, seeing how it is a better monster tooth or med-kit in high eclipse.
I kinda like the idea of an antler sheild that has its numbers changed to be something upsurd (like 10% to reflect 500% damage where extra stacks add +5% chance and +100% more damage.)
But unless they were going to do something silly like that it was kind of a waste of an item. The only way to make reflecting damage good is to give it absurd multipliers at base.
antler shield was not a cool unique item bruh
surprised about the noxious thorn change.
I assumed that was the intent, since it's just a worthless version of Razorwire if i'm not mistaken. Shoulda made it Void(-adjacent) Razorwire.
Trash items are items that don't benefit any of the survivors at any given point. You could scrap it, but given any survivor, there's always scrappable items that can be picked up
White items, up until before the Gearbox acquisition, from stage 1, would either offer
-significant boost with the right 1 or 2 survivors (medkit on REX/crowbar on huntress/backup mag on huntress/tipdagger on commando)
-decent boost with maybe half the cast of survivors (crit glasses/mocha/syringe/hooves)
-or a little boost to all survivors (topaz brooch/armor)
And this is also to say that some were useless to some characters (shield on REX, which would never regen the shield)
Antler shield was trash because, for a white item, it doesn't even give a boost to REX, whose whole schtick is to self-damage to impart damage, at any point. So it's not just useless for the one specific survivor, but to all survivor
Add insult to injury: Sure you can scrap it, but you know what else you can scrap? another scrap item that you already have in your inventory that could've just had another stack added
and not the item that was made just to make loot rolling more frustrating.
Rolling bad loot doesn't make the game more difficult, it makes it more frustrating.
The game has a design in it that would even punish over looting good items: Mithrix
I dont get how you arent seeing that this is EXACTLY what they needed to do. Antler shield as an item would've needed to be significantly changed to be even passable, and isnt even completely unique within the dlc regardless (noxious thorn triggers a retaliatory effect upon damage taken). Changing that to a movement item is a very valid choice considering both the expansions added no new movement speed.
Also cant believe how aggressive people are about antler shield. Whether it’s good or bad, why not keep the goofy niche items goofy and niche and add another item for movement speed. Or buff older items with movement speed, like just flat out giving monster teeth the speed buff
They shoulda buffed Antler Shield's reflection damage and just tacked on a 7.5% MS bonus a la Mocha. I don't think anyone would complain about that. Keep the unique effect, and add an MS item into the loot pool.
Honesty i wanted to disagree with you saying antlers dont need to be scrapped but the more i think about it the more i kind of want to damage reflection to stay. I think they NEED to add more speed regardless of how we feel so why no both? Why not make it so you get reflection while sprinting maybe have it so you get 1 or 2 100% chances to reflect perstack with a regen time similar to spaces and tweak the amaound of damage reflected according to balance and then also give it a precent speed buff on top of that. I think that'd make everyone happy. They could keep the orbs too and make them the same or maybe have the orbs reduce the reflect cooldown.
Addition: This sounds op with a 100% reflect chance actually now that I read it back so a 10 or more second cooldown to balance would be nice and balanced
Regarding the false son changes, could be animation changes? Like the attacks lacking impact when used
I would've liked Antlers to give armor, have a 100% to reflect damage, starting at 200% of the enemy's attack and getting +50% damage and more armor per stack. At higher stacks, that could be legitimately fun.
Antler Shield is terrible, especially since Mithrix Phase 4 exists. I'm almost certain the Hopoo team considered adding Repulsion Armour but they realised how OP that would be on Mithrix specifically so they turned it into Repulsion Armour Plate.
The only change anther shield needed was to make the damage scale by 100% (+100% per stack). Easy fix.
I get what youre saying about "you can't buff everything", however you also can't have 90% of the dlc items being straight up unusable scrap bait, death mark is useless until you have 3 debuffs, but once you have those debuffs it gives you a substantial damage buff, war horn isn't really useful until you have a good amount of fuel cells or gestures, but once you have them you get a pretty substantial attack speed buff
It's fine for items to be circumstantial, it makes you think, ok will I have enough debuffs to proc death mark by the end of the run or am I better off scrapping it?
Antler shield is a question about would you rather have +1 white scrap or an item that will deal 0.000001% damage to a boss' health late in the run IF you take damage. Yes we lose a meme build for command artifact, but other than that we don't really lose anything
Also I wanted to touch on the point of "they will buff everything so everything will feel good" I don't really agree, they will buff everything so everything ntroduced in the dlc will feel on par with everything else in the game, chef feels really weak, I barely even see discourse on chef actually being a good survivor that doesn't need tweaks, as well as false son who is good if you abuse his passive, but other than that needs some animation tweaks, also seeker, her special needing you to be stationary to use breks a bit of the flow of the game that asks you to always be moving and her revive mechanic not working in single player takes away one of her main identities as a survivor, so I agree on making her being able to revive herself at least once in single player, would make her more unique. Items feel weak at best and useless at worse (the dlc introduced some really abusable items like chronic expansion, which is the best item in the game if you know how to abuse it, but also really useless items, again, the worst offender is antler shield, but you also have warbounds that gives you money at the beginning of the stageequivalent to 3 normal chests..... a red item btw, the same tier as lazer scope, teslacoil, brillaint behemoth, sonorous whispers, it doesn't feel good to get a warbounds out of the stage 4 legendary chest). Finally, the false son boss you either have to loop and make the boss a joke, as he doesn't scale as well as mythrix or voidling from my experience, or fight him in the first loop and make the experience extremely frustrating due to his attacks
I think I would be ok with antler shield if it was like 10% (+10% per stack) to reflect 3x damage taken back to nearby enemies
reflecting an average of 5% damage back to enemies that have like 10x your health is beyond stupid though, and I'm perfectly fine with having another movement speed item to keep the balance
antler shield rework looks like its gonna feel the same as hunters harpoon and i for one do not like inconsistent movement speed outside of red whip or energy drink
tougher times has a chance to block incoming damage.
i'm happy that they're fixing the bugs, making twisted elites not a instant game over (i can finally loop stages again yay) and gilded elites being less annoying (finally). chef needed a buff. i'm a little divided on the items. they are bad, but not like items in the binding of isaac (you take a pill and lose 1 heart and that's it), they won't make your run actively worse. yes, you could've got an atg instead of a noxious thorn. but bad items are meant to be in roguelike games. i've never seen someone complain about stoneflux pauldron being bad or razor wire being absolutely useless 99% of your runs. nor i've seen anybody say to rework bison steak bc it's borderline useless. these item changes are aimed only to the risk of rain 2 players, not all roguelike enjoyers that play risk of rain 2. gearbox maybe listened a little too much the community and the streamers. the rest of the update is 10/10 but the items... i don't think we need 7 full reworks. that feels unnecessary to me in every way. a very drastic change.
Antler shield is not unique or special its literally a shitty razorwire
I really dont care for antler shield it wouldve been cool if they had a item that gave you a damage bonus against mid air combatants
Antler shield losing its identity doesn't seem right to me. They could've made the reflected damage scale like 50% per stack or something ridiculous, reflection was so unique
If only it wasn’t just a massively worse version of Razorwire because it only procs off enemy damage
And yes I'm aware that antler is a white and razorwire is a green but that honestly doesn't mean much to me
Some whites are better than greens, and just that fact that the dlc was trying to add a worse razorwire that is a white version is just not it for me, plus the whole getting hit to damage enemy shouldn't be a common thing that you need multiple different items for it, I think one is enough and that one is razorwire, if you try to add more you just bloat the item pool with unnecessary things
I was thinking the antlers would be good with a higher chance on engi's turrets, not really for most runs. Kind of like how razorwire can synergize with REX's self-damaging abilities. But I guess not anymore.
I agree if they just buff the items or make them all good it is genuinely just bad for the game, I also wish more people would see that, though importantly while I agree some items shouldn't just be good they should still at least do something that is unique and has the potential to be good in the right instance. Imo all of the items they are giving a full rework aren't just bad but there are almost zero situations where they're good and that's the problem I see.
Death mark is usually bad but that's because it's niche, it's only good once you have enough debuffs for it to work. This also promotes good synergies with other items like bleed or chronobauble. With many of the sots items though, this isn't the case. They are bad items not because they're rarely good, but because they're almost never good. They don't stand well on they're own and they don't have good synergies with almost any items to even make them good as a niche either.
Ultimately I really agree, I don't just want the items to be buffed and made better, like yeah it's fun at first but then you're just spoiled and the game gets boring. I want them to be bad, but like a niche bad, similar to death mark, razorwire, planula, or even squid polyp. But since they don't fit that mold rn, I think Gearbox is honestly making the right move reworking the items. Though ofc I hope too that they are actually well thought out, bad items are important too.
Roadmap is nice but I want to know when we can expect them to start.
So antlers are just hoof+brooch+harpoon?
Great
Diet razorwire is now diet hunters harpoon 😂
They need to take the dude pitching these item concepts out back of the shed
antler shield if i recall is broken in eclipse in a bad way reflected dmg still applies to your max health down that eclipse does when you take dmg so its not worth it at all
if im wrong and thats a different item someone correct me plz ill edit/ delete this
I think the antler shield is still going to suck. I think it's going to perform more like hunter harpoon where it's speed boost monster tooth. We need more speed items because when you don't loop you can just get 0 speed items because the limited loot you get the pool is getting bigger so you have less chance of getting any speed at all. I know, you just loop 8 trillion times so you probably haven't identified that as an issue to your play style
It's going to be a shittier speed items like mocha (I love mocha, id rather have mocha than energy drink)
It will still help the lootpool if you're just having a bad run where you can't find any other standard movement items, which is not something that the Antlers did up to now - they were just scrap fodder. I agree that the Harpoon is a very bad and incosistent item, it has no right being green rarity, so hopefuly they learn from that item and how to implement the new Antlers better.
They could've changed the antlers to slightly damage enemies if you sprint into them, would make more sense for, you know, spiky antlers thing to do, instead of a speed boost.
I have no fate in Gearbox after the release of the dlc
i like a few effects of the itens effects but i dont like the itens.
warped echo:warped echo just need a small fix so you dont get the double damage again.
antler shield:should still have the "shield" part of it,but have the movement speed too because movement speed itens are rare now,so would be something.
"increases movement speed in 6%{+6% per stack) and reflect damage in 100%(+50% per stack)"
bolstering lantern:full rework,that item sucks.
would be cool if they put the barrier orbs here(when hitting a enemy,drops orbs that increase ATTACK SPEED,damage and barrier)
noxious thorn:rework:i really wanted it to be like toxin from rorr,a enemy gets close in melee range and they get weaken for a few secs.
knockback fin:just make it like the boxing glove from rorr again,have a chance to pushing a enemy away when the enemy gets pushed it takes damage like fall damage.
( have 99% chance they will remove the knockback part of it and it...make me feel weird)
warbonds:i really dont need a way of getting more money using a fucking red,reds are the reason you use all your gold on a legendary chest.
just take the goldengun from rorr and put it on the warbonds,end.
i have a weird feeling when i get "runic lens" and "boomerang".
i think reds should not have a "chance" to work.
none of the other reds have a "chance" to work except happiest mask(and happiest mask is dogshit).
runic lens and boomerang should not have a chance to proc and instead do less damage and always proc so they feel more "red".
of course i also need some more defensive itens that help mitigate damage...
it got really rare now and The dlc literally gave nothing except warped echo that really doesnt make you take less damage,you still take The same damage but in diferent times.
Knockback fin is keeping the knocking aspect of it, it also now stuns the enemies and makes them float slightly when knocked up in mid air as well as applying a debuff with presumably increases damage and presumably ends when they touch the ground
Hard disagree on that last point. Sometimes things need to feel powerful by hitting hard and less often. If you proportionally exchanged damage with proc chance on Runic Lens it'd do 5% of its current damage and proc'd on every hit you'd see a fuck ton of meteors, but they'd only hit with the all the power and strength of Commando's primary attack by dealing only 100% base damage on hit. Sounds really lame if you asked me. Not at all the effect that a gosh dang METEOR slamming into your foes should have, but making it any stronger and it'd be way too strong. The only red that can guarantee 100% more damage on enemies is Symbiotic Scorpion, and it takes getting 100 stacks of it's debuff on an enemy to do that.
Additionally, there's a reason Plasma Shrimp is the ONLY 100% on-hit proc item in the game and that's because it's not performance-friendly to have proc effects like that going off willy-nilly.
Finally, you're forgetting that Sentient Meat Hook is in the game. A red with a proc chance that, if it's effect was placed at 100% chance to proc, would easily make it one of the most broken item the the game for clumping enemies together and dealing huge AOE damage. It's already a much better Ukulele by having 10 targets and gaining 5 per stack, 100% damage, and a 1.0 proc coefficient with a lightly lower chance to proc at 20% with +%20(non-linear) more chance per stack.
@Crazykidthree33 i forgot meat Hook existed.
I rarelly know what that item does when i Get It.
This game needs fixing, I had a scavenger spawn on stage 4 at about 30 min 😅
It’s okay, Razorwire is still in the game.
>roadmap for a dlc that took you 2 years to make and you plan to rework/redo everything
nice
Paid DLC's and the selling of the IP killed it and there is no going back from that.
Lol killed it, numbers have never been so high on the game since the release date of the DLC, you tweaking.
Am I the only one who didn’t majorly hate the new DLC?
Modders better bring back antler shield I stg
It's your opinion man but I did pay for the dlc so I want my items to do atleast something
Some items have to suck? I don’t know about that one
vacuum item would like to have a word with you
They will never fix that or releases bugless dlcs in future (like first dlc survivors of the void). Why? Because they ported consope version on pc, yep. That bugger co ps version that they blamed (hoopo blamed) every time for their prolonged releases. Now we all have thar bug version
Survivors of the void being a bugless DLC??? Did everyone forget that the first weeks of that DLC the game was more unplayable than with the current DLC? You would spawn into a void seed every other stage, die instantly, one stack of collapse would be a guaranteed death no matter the items or the amount of health, investors would jump your drones and squid turrents killing you instantly, audio bugs were numerous with Plasma Shrimp being twice as loud as everything else etc. Also they added Voidling which is a dogshit boss. Items like Ben's Raincoat were also tweaked post launch. This DLC only had more bugs because it brought more content and was obviously rushed. People are giving Hopoo way too much credit when they were not that much better than Gearbox. Half of the current bugs are Hopoo's fault, many of their items from the days of early acess ROR2 are still bugged and were left bugged for good in the game like Queen's Gland).
Also, them porting the console version to the PC was already debunked as being a myth.
A roadmap for bugfixes is insane
The antlers take is insanity.
insanely good !@
if i were to take a stab they probably mean just extra vfx juice on those abilities. they do nice work but aesthetically they are so fucking horrible looking.
Yeah not rebuying it, it was slop, this was a long beta that made millions...
Is it a joke? I hope you are joking
Personally I dislike all the items besides boomerang, and sale star 🤣
Wtf happened?
This game was perfect