Absolutely, Dune speaks to humanity and the dangers of tyrants, as we see today, the rise of AI, something DUNE also warned of. But here again, we see those same tyrants using race, gender and nationality to pit us against each other, turn everything into a moshpit, attacking anything thoughtful discourse and putting in it's place PC nonsense. Thus we can't talk about anything less we offend someone, as our society crumbles and George Orwell's greatest fears become reality.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercyIf frank wanted audiences to come to a single conclusion, it would be OPs. That's why he wrote messiah, because people didn't get it.
They were horribly oppressed and treated as value-less serfs. Paul converted them into an ascendant power who basically conquer the entire human power structure. Now, they are under the sway of a messianic leader(Paul), but their position in society has arguably improved vastly. Unless you feel that individual freedom is more important than socio-economic power. But really, the individual freedom they had before Paul's ascent was basically the "freedom" to stay hidden from their oppressors. And it's never clear what proportion of them are able to, or choose to do this. If they could all just keep hidden, who are the Harkonnen slaughtering, exactly? And how?
@nick m. Lmao is that what you think? First off I'm pretty sure my ancestors would have rather been In Africa rather than have been Over here. Especially when our whole race were being subjected to Chattel slavery; Basically meaning we were thought of as property (just as you would any other cow or horse) instead of being treated as what we were, Humans. And I hate to get into this because I like white people, but Africa actually did better pre-colonization than any time in history. It was only until white colonization started when Africa got worse. What I don't think you get is that most Native people of any land actually liked living the way they did Pre-Colonization; maybe they weren't as "developed as the Europeans", but atleast we had our own separate and unique cultures. All Native peoples got the short end of the stick at the end of the day. For Example take the Native Americans; they had a beautiful and fascinating culture, and then all of a sudden that changed. Now they've been forced to live on "Reserves" on their own land! In case of Black Americans it might be better in SOME places over here than it would be in SOME places In africa, but that doesn't stop some of us from going back every year! What I'm trying to say is that you never "saved" anything because that was never your purpose; Everything White people did was for their own interests. Not ours.
@@4leek No, everything that racist whites did back in the day was either for their own interests or for the betterment of all peoples. There was no one or the other. Also, none of that you experienced. You were never a slave, and live in the freest country on Earth. Stop whining about how awful every color is except for Black and go get a job.
@@4leek your ancestors would have continue to be in Africa if the slave traders didn't find it very profitable to deal with Europeans. Slavery in Africa had always been very big to the point of forming slave kingdoms and for good reason. Slavery is very good for the economy. Even more so when dutch merchants showed a very big interest in it so it's nothing new really for your ancestors. Let's not forget that the oldest slaves around are those friendly chaps called slave in Europe, they know a thing or two about being enslaved considering some call them the first slaves. Let's also not forget that in the 18th century the British began a long campaign to abolish slavery due to the Brits getting ever more concerned about the immorality of it. Now they didn't bring flowers and snacks to have a nice chat with the locals, the governments wanted resources, an edge over other superpowers and they couldn't care less about the natives really but they did treat them a lot better than you would expect considering how brutal our old European friends were.
“I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert Anyone who says Dune is a White Saviour story is outing themselves as having never read it.
And it's pretty much the same people who have traded knowledge, cultural background and critical thought for posturing, prefabricated thoughts and convictions that are only valid while a certain trend lasts.
@Josh M You said the key word, friend: the norm. The norm, the imposed idea of normality which so many have embraced, almost without questioning, as if they were afraid of having thoughts of their own.
@@tomcavanaugh5237 "White savior" is patronizing comment from overly ambitious people eager to gaslight everything in cinema to get people talking about it.
There's something people tend to ignore. Thanks to the Missionaria Protectiva, the Fremen were primed to believe a savior from another world was going to show up. But the only thing limiting the Fremen was their mindset. Paul himself has a vision that before his duel that whether he lived or died that the Fremen would go on their crusade across all human worlds, killing billions, cleansing many worlds of all life. They didn't need Paul at all, just a figurehead.
@Caitlyn Carvalho Two people's skin tones are mentioned in the books. Duke Leto has Olive Skin, and Chani has skin with a dark complexion that is pale from having never seen the sun so anyone thinking these characters are white is a product of their own prejudices.
@Caitlyn Carvalho he isn't gay he is a sexual predator of young boys. there IS a homophobic trope of villains being gay, but I dont think the baron fits it. the baron (and the harkonnens as a whole) are meant to represent the animals in opposition to the humans of the attreities in the way that Reverand Mother Gaius describes. the Baron basically indulges in every desire he pleases regardless of the harm it causes to others to the point that he can become likened to an animal - a predator. while paul and jessica are the 2 main characters and B.G. who are explicitly human proved by the Gom Jabbar test.
@Caitlyn Carvalho because he isn't interested in boys, he doesn't engage in relationships he engages in SA and Rape. He also doesn't seek them because of their gender but rather because of their age.
@caitlyncarvalho7637no I don’t think the baron is. I think the baron would stick it in anything whenever he feels like it. Because he has no self restraint. He can’t prevent himself from shoving food down his face, can’t help but assault and abuse anything, including himself. Can’t stop doing drugs. He’s the antithesis to civilization. Civilized humans restrain base impulses to rise above. Do something more with their lives instead of doing whatever they feel like. Ya know?
@caitlyncarvalho7637 No i wouldn't consider the baron to be a homophobic stereotype because his character isn't a talking point on gay or even sexuality but more animalistic disire's and what happens if you are lead by them (also he's more of a pedophile regardless since he's raping young boys)
The Dune Series summarized: Dune- The Reverend Mother and Emperor: "Ah man, we fucked up!" Dune Messiah- Paul: "Ah man, I fucked up!" Children of Dune- Leto II: "Man, all the adults really fucked up!" God-Emperor of Dune- *Leto II explains the Gold Path* Siona: "That's fucked up!" *kills him* Heretic of Dune- Honored Matres: "The old empire really fucked up." Chapterhouse: Dune- Honored Matres: "Ah man, we fucked up!" Likely plot of the last unwritten book- Duncan Idaho: Hey... I hate to be that guy, but maybe we should stop putting the fate of all of humanity in the hands of a small group of degenerate psychos that keep fucking up?
*The expanded Dune series:* Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson: "We're incapable of fucking up!" Everyone else: _"YOU. FUCKED! UUUUUUUUUUP!"_ Edit: Spelling, 'cuz I fucked up.
I think it's a deliberate *deconstruction* of Messianic stories. "Chosen one" stories are common to every culture, and all of them have been a mixed bag at best historically.
@@DreamMorpheus42 In the way Paul uses the mythic groundwork of the Bene Gesserit to take the reins of fremen society against his enemies? The way "destiny" seems to dehumanize those on its paths? I definitely agree
Muad'dib is nobody's savior. He used the freman for his and his family's survival, and became trapped by the prophecies made about him. He did have great powers, but those powers became a curse because he was able to see what would be done in his name. In the end he was left helpless by the religion that enveloped him and his family, and he walked out into the desert to die.
@@Needler13 His son is basically what Paul probably would have become if he was fully on board with the path. Paul did and caused horrible things, most if not all the events are practically his fault BUT he realized he was wrong and tried to at least gain some level of redemption (which no I don't think he's redeemed at all). His son was a lot more dedicated then he was, which is literally the worst thing that could possibly happen.
@@varicosevisage4794 But at what cost? It was really only “humanities survival“ in the sense of the species itself rather than the individuals. How many generations were wasted because of that?
It always strikes me how youtubers like you Quinn, when properly motivated, almost always do better nuanced and researched essays than established journals, from whom it would be expected a better job since that is actually their job.
Journalists are trying to sell a story and a belief, whether that belief aligns with the truth seems irrelevant now, and often the one trying to sell the story, hasn’t read the story at all.
What Quinn is doing is straight up Literature Studies, including interdisciplinary findings from cultural studies and critical theory. I'm not sure what kind of "established journals" you are referring to, but once you move past simple entertainment press into the academic journals and publications dedicated to the fields of art history, film studies, literature studies, media studie, gender studies, critical theory etc. it is exactly this content you get (although in a much more in depth way). Not saying Quinn can't do it better, it's really just a question of the medium. RUclips canonly do so much. I'm glad you are enjoying this content, but please don't think its solely a question of motivation: this content stems from a tradition of liberal arts. So next time you hear people make fun of English majors, gender studies etc. remember it is those fields enabling us to sharpen our discourse and develope the analytical toolsets to deconstruct and explore media.
Modern journalism is not really journalism. They are told what to write, and are given little time to properly research the information. Or the journalist comes up with an idea and the editor just approves it because the news cycle demands a constant stream. This is why you get so many articles or news stories with false information.
@@jakobeisenstein4886 I'm afraid the industry of popular journalism and click-bait is reaching a lot more audiences than academic publication. So the fact that there are youtube channels like Quinn's placing real content and analytical thought in the wilderness of general consumers is actually the most refreshing hope I have seen for the future of academic influence in the broader culture.
"The actual conflict of the Dune saga is clearly between the elite ruling class, and those they manipulated and oppressed." Totally nailed it, and there are clear parallels to current day. This is the best Dune content channel on the 'tube, and it's not even close.
And now we have the elite ruling class using race and victimization to manipulate even further through tokenism and preachy intellectualism disguising as gaslighting. AWESOME! The one cool thing we have to escape, we have to deal with, then get cancelled ...I love this era!!!
Thats the good old marxism. For marx gender, race, etc. Were forms to create conflict among the working class. For marx only the material matter, the only political issues were material issues, and thus economical. Yeah socialism doesnt work, and when It works Its totalitarian distopya (a.k.a. China), but Marx framework is way better than the liberal progresive framework of the modern left. Cultural Marxism doesnt exist, for Marxists Liberals were wolfs in sheeps clothing, for liberals Marxists were dangerous extremists and a threat for democracy. But both as left try to claim heritage from marxist criticism. What we have now is probably the worst of both worlds. What we should rescue from marx is his materialism, race, gender and other shenanigans are not important. Power corrupts and then ones in power are corrupted.
@@bemersonbakebarmen "Yeah socialism doesnt work" ... and as it was written on the wall of one Roman legion's barracks "Feudalism does'not work. It is a dangerous utopia!"
I also hear the "noble savage" trop being called out with Dune. And... like... no? The series as a whole is about how breeding and genetic purify lead to destruction, how medelling or idolizing with religions and cultures leads to war, and how putting your faith in ideals rather than logic can destroy whole planets.
I disagree with the logic vs ideals part but everything else is true. I think this story was also a fair warning against just thinking logically. For example the exploitation of a resource that makes one people's rich as opposed to the conservation of your ecosystem. This is an ideal right there... one many characters died for in the books too
@@kj_H65f she said dune teaches us how putting your faith in ideals vs logic can destroy whole planets but I think it depends on the ideals. Humans can't live without ideals we just have to choose cautiously. One ideal that I think is not dangerous is deciding to choose ecology vs exploitation when exploitation is the logical thing to do to become rich. I think this rather than destroying a planet, it can save it. In a world where exploitation is the way to survive and succeed, conservation is not logical and more a declaration of faith that people believe in the future. I don't think this is destructive. I also don't think that putting logic above every thing was the point of the story. Fundamentally Paul was a result of a rational breeding, he was a genius who was able to manipulate the human mind. There were warnings in that (eugenism, imperialism, science with no real purpose but to conquer). Even the banning of the AI. All of these to me were also a warning against blind trust in logic alone. Anyway I just think there is more to the story than this simple dichotomy.
I agree with the warning about just thinking logically. Gulags and death camps came from logic. Emotionless logic. You don't have money to pay workers so you need slaves, you make gulags and invent crimes to fill them. You have a people blamed for all the country's problems, therefore you eliminate them, problem solved.
That's the kicker though, isn't it? We as a species always forget things, and what we do remember is selective. Everyone thinks they were the ones that suffered the most. Everyone thinks the way they live their life is the better way. Everyone thinks that if everyone else believed what they believe, then the world would be perfect. The truth is we are small silly creatures, posturing that we are greater then we actually are. Myself included.
Did you know that dunken was never intended to be brought back. Apparently he got so much fan mail about people upset that dunken died, that he brought him back in next book and every one after that.
@@eaglesclaws8 In hindsight it was one of Herbert's best ideas having continuity in Duncan. Regardless of all the plotting and gradiosity of the major players, Duncan always gives us a grounded and sober perspective on the story.
Whenever Kipling’s “White Man’s Burden” is brought up I think back to something an American newspaper wrote in response as the War in the Philippines turned into a messy guerrilla war: “Mr. Kipling, we’ve taken up the white man’s burden, now how may we put it down?”
You’re more simply listening to people talk about things you already know, and agree with. That’s what RUclips is designed to do. It is an engine of confirmation bias, not broadening horizons. Just something we should all be aware of here.
Kipling is saying is not saying Philippinos are monster-children, he's saying from experience that it's stupid to think like that. Read "Shooting an Elephant" by George Orwell.
As a person of mixed race, who's ancestors have been mixing for hundreds of years, I always enjoyed the Dune series because I didn't have to grapple with the all too common 'choose a side, what do you look more like to other people' debate while reading. My mom introduced me to Dune pretty early on and scifi in general, probably because of this, but Dune never came across as a racial war to me. It's definitely about the traps of power though for all humans and I always loved that it showed it as a problem that humanity has to grapple with, regardless of spaceships or living on other planets.
i thought the whole human struggle was dwarfed by the ecology aspects of the first book, and the rest were about the consequences of the first on both the planet and population.
I really haven't caught on the ecology focus when I read the books, but that's possibly because awareness of ecology has really expanded since to the point where it's become just mundane backdrop.
To me the most engaging part of the first book was how society was shaped by ecology. Seeing how Fremen culture evolved around the scarcity of water (such as Paul's natural reaction of crying being held with extreme importance) had me re-read those sections of the book like 3x as much as the rest of it.
@@chriszimmermann2582 Agreed. Absolutely fascinating. Reading the appendix about ecology was great. The dinner scene where the fremen spits made maybe the strongest impression on me out of everything in the entire book.
I really consider the entire Dune Saga to be separated into three distinct parts. The shitstorm that led to the reign of Leto II. The shitstorm that was the reign of Leto II. The shitstorm that was the aftermath of the reign of Leto II. The series really was done dirty by the last book never being written. I feel like everything would have come together in the end. Not necessarily any kind of satisfy resolution to what was happening, but at least a thematic crescendo of what Frank Herbert was trying to say.
By the time of Children of Dune, no one can tell the difference between Paul and other lighter skinned Fremen, making him able to hide his ancestry from others, including the Fremen.
Only a victim would go the extra route of pointing this dumb sh*t out knowing there's black panther and a number of other feature films to resonate to.
I've always seen Dune as a deconstruction of the White Savior trope. On its face, it appears to be, especially if you limit your scope to the first novel, but with the series taken as a whole, taking into account the overarching theme of not trusting heroes/authority, you'd have a hard time saying that Paul and the Atreides *saved* the Fremen.
Paul and Jessica did free the Freman from the horrors of known mistreatment. Some good from. Maud'Dib unfortunately took things tad to far and lost his way. Leto II wanted more, always more, thus leading to great suffering, until he learned and tried to reset the path Now the golden path, thats some horrors there.
That is what it was supposed to be.....but it fails to realize that the hang-ups and peculiarities he attributed to all humans were actually the preoccupation of a privileged min0rity (his demographic). in that sense, Dune is more pure power fantasy than it is hard science fiction with an existentialist aftertaste.
There's a scene in the first book where Paul recognizes two fremen by how they run across the sand. Kynes doesn't believe it and says, "You can't tell fremen just by looking at them."
Kynes said that for appearances. He was disconcerted by the fact that Paul could see through subterfuge and had indeed identified the few Fremen hanging out with the harvesting crew.
@@Rokaize israel is a racist colonial aparthaid state. He also played in a movie that draw a lot of inspiration from arab and islamic culture, people are mad that irl he support jewish fascist and play Space prophet that save the indegenous against coloniser
But olive skin is a shade of the Caucasian diversity. It's actually the predominant skin of modern Southern Europe and it was probably the main color of Romans and Greeks.
Wow Quinn, you REALLY laid it out for us... eloquent and precise. The fact that Herbert studied psychology, and Zen Buddhism, really explains a lot. Having studied them myself, I can recognize some of his foundational, wisdom informed threads....is why it is SO great!
You answered this question so well, this is excellent. It feels balanced, fair, and detailed. You highlight how complicated the original question is, and give a suitably nuanced answer. I like the personal touch you added at the end too.
good answer, i first read Dune in the early 80s because it was my Fathers favorite Sci-fi book. I watched an interview with Frank Herbert, back then and I have seen that interview since it stuck with me even back then but, I remember Herbert saying he wanted to create something that would tell that charismatic leaders are the most dangerous, that those people should come with a warning label on them. That he believed the most dangerous President that we had up to that point was John F. Kenedy and that the most influential President was Nixon, because Nixon showed you that government can not be trusted. That is what these books are. Its what Paul struggles with he wants to stop it, but he can't he is a tool of fate, he says in the book multiple times even if he were to die it would not stop.
@@thx1138sixnine but Dune isn't a racist story and that goes for many other stories that are criticised as being "racist" or "white saviour" stories, in fact i doubt that racist stories even exist nowadays due to the fact that there'd be massive public outcry.... So your argument is kinda invalid
@@thx1138sixnine I think he was saying just that. We write what we know. And we write from our own point of views in time and history. We need more diverse stories because without them then we have no counter narrative. Can we write without inserting ourselves into our heroes?
I never got the impression that race, as we see it now, has any bearing on the Dune Universe. When a much evolved humanity, guided behind the scenes by the Bene Gesserit, seeks genetic perfection, not phenotypical preferences.
Yeah, I think if you have never heard of Dune but watched it. It does come off like, oh, here we go again. I feel like they didn't mean for it to come off that way, But like with character Neo (in the Matrix). It's like, this again? Lol.
Then you haven't been reading the books. The entire series is 100% about ethnicity and culture and colonization. It's literally a commentary on Russia and Afghanistan and what happened there in the 70s.
@@ambercarter2359 I'm correcting you. How is Dune a commentary of something that happened in the 70's, if it was released in the 60's? Or did you mentioned the wrong decade?
(Disclaimer: writing before finishing the video) I think an important distinction between Dune and stereotypical "White Saviour" stories is that Herbert kind of made Paul one purpose, compared to the stereotypical "White Saviour" story where the trope comes into play through accidents of writing choices. Paul and Jessica are intentionally manipulating the Fremen thanks to the Missionara Protectiva unlike the stereotype where the "White Saviour" really *is* the destined hero by some magical natural fate rather than the actual intentional actions of himself and others that we're shown shaping Paul's life in Dune. Choice is an important recurring theme in the Dune saga, which doesn't really match up with the stereotypical White Saviour story where the "Saviour" character is swept up by a force bigger than themselves and there's no real explanation as to why they are better at something than the culture they have joined. Not to mention the fact that while Dune gives us what seems to be a traditional hero arc the rest of the series brutally rips apart the "heroic" Paul. We are told very explicitly just how much he's damaged the Fremen, their way of life, how he's split their community into those who support him and those who hate him for destroying their culture. Paul is, to me at least, a really great deconstruction of the "White Saviour". Of course whether that was Herbert's intention I have no idea, and honestly I don't think Herbert's intentions are too important (Death of the Author for the win). I can make the text support it so that's the argument I will make.
lol, other than knowing a lot more about the intentions of Herbert (which obvs Quinn is a far better expert in than me) my views match up with Quinn's pretty nicely!
The 1984 movie version of Dune doesn't talk at all about the Missionara Proctectiva, but despite its brevity in the book (I think it's only mentioned three/four times, once to Jessica by the Gesserit, once to Jessica to Paul, and importantly twice by Paul to himself as he tries to get himself out of a sticky situation) I find it central to all things that happen within Dune.
@@langhamp8912 yeah, the 1984 movie goes full blown, unambiguous White Saviour, and since the movie is most people's encounter with Dune it unfortunately impacts how the source text is viewed.
@@charlesreid9337 hey, all reactions to fiction are legitimate. If your that's your friend's reaction then that's your friend's reaction. I hate some things that I know are objectively good fiction. It's a matter of Your Mileage May Vary. Experiencing fiction is a very personal thing. Herbert has done something that works on the theme of White Saviourism on some level. The fact that it's a type of deconstruction doesn't change the fact that it can still hurt people since a deconstruction still has to use harmful elements.
I kinda feel like it was less so in this adaption than the previous ones. The Fremen in the Lynch one seemed somewhat naive and helpless, which isn't really what the Fremen where supposed to be. But this one the Fremen seemed to have a lot more agency and certainly seemed a less orientalist conception. They where *active* participants of the desert.
@@sneedmando186 Are you suggesting that T. E. Lawrence, the actual historical human being, is an example of a fictional trope? Further, I'm not sure T. E. Lawrence would have considered himself to have been engaged in holy war at any point during his life.
@@migarsormrapophis2755 The historical T.E, Lawrence cannot be regarded as such, but the mythologised/fictionalised one from the movie most certainly is.
paul isn't a good guy, so i don't see how he could be called a savior, he didn't do the fremen any favors, arguably he destroyed them. even his son who arguably saves all of humanity inflicts an unimaginable amount of suffering on all of humanity, he intentionally cuts a scar so deep that humanity can never forget. its like humanity being saved by satan.
Precisely, that's why I'm annoyed all these people commenting on the new movie not knowing paul causes a genocide and great jihad that killed billions, hes the ultimate villian in the story. Tried explaining that to my ex she just said no its racist and so are you paul is a mighty whitey stereotype, I couldnt help but laugh and say get off tumblr and read the damn book yourself, I never even saw paul as white.
@Muad'Dib you literally caused the destruction of the fremen and their culture, as well as unleashed a jihad on the galaxy that killed unfathomable numbers of people, numbers so large that they are almost incomprehensible.
And now that Dune has been released it seems that not enough critics have read Dune, because the white saviour critics are EVERYWHERE, despite fans best attempts to educate them. I wish a could a link of this video to each and every one of them.
The story doesn't exist in a vacuum. The realities of representation won't disappear just because the in universe understanding of "race" isn't the same.
On the plus side, the number of actual users on twitter, people who regularly tweet, is actually very tiny compared to the total population. On the down side, everybody seems to given them way more attention than their numbers and ideas warrant, for no compelling reason.
I’m 67 and such, I’ve been a reader of Scifi for decades. I love your content. I love your embracing of Asimov. Great analysis and research on this subject. You’re a deep thinker.
@@craigjones7343 Deep - adjective adjective: deep; comparative adjective: deeper; superlative adjective: deepest 1. extending far down from the top or surface. - anything else?
@@aurora9252 Dune literally is about not having a charismatic leader and Herbert said as much. I do believe tthe critics will try to undermine the film on lack of these many races ... so the White Savior thing will be played up.
I always had the impression Dune is a deconstruction of the White Savior tale, myself. It doesn't end well for Paul, as he watches the people he uplifts raze the galaxy while he can't do anything to stop it.
Frank Hebert really told us that charismatic leaders ought to come with a health warning, may be hazardous to your health...This includes saviors/Messiah figures
Weren’t they from a multi galaxy? Making them Alien humanoid not just human earthlings 😂😂😂 hell the main characters could have been green for all i know beings from another galaxy
The “A holy war in my name” scene in the first film seemed to be the embodiment of this. The visuals, his tears, the terror in his voice, he knows *exactly* what will happen and not only doesn’t want it and is *terrified* of it, but knows there is nothing he can do to stop it. He knows he will be seen as a savior, possibly even a Man-god, but horrifying things will happen in his name. Billions of deaths, religious zealotry, manipulation, and deceit. And all based on lies and attempts to grow power by the Bene Gesserit. But there is nothing he can do about it. Nothing he says or does will convince anyone or change his followers minds. All he can do is go along with it and accept the consequences. All while *hopefully* making something truly good out of all the evil that will come. And given Leto the 2nd, you can see how well that worked out in the end.
Amazing video as usual, Quinn! It probably says more about the society interpreting it than the source material itself that so many people assume 1) that Paul is white and 2) that he’s the “hero” of the story just because he’s the protagonist of the first novel. Thanks for covering this in such depth!
I don't know why they think he's white except that's how he's casted in the movies. I always assumed Paul and the Duke were brown, having lived on Caladan which has a tropical like climate. I always thought Jessica was of Asian descendant because of her eyes. Only the Baron did I really think of as white. LoL What does that say about me?
@@orpheuscult75 Not really, the only way to get rid of an infection is to cut it out. Thats like saying "surgery to remove tumors is actually bad" because you have to cut the body open first.
Honestly, saving the Fremen never seemed to be an objective. They were an asset to sway to their side and keep for themselves. A means to an end. Just because you don't intentionally mistreat them does not mean it's really saving them. They needed no saving. They didn't really want any saving. They were swayed by ideologies, roused to fight for and believe in a mythical religious figure who himself drowned in his own myth, unable to escape it. Nobody was really freed. Noone really saved anyone. But a whole bunch of shit went down.
Makes sense when you consider race as a construct. I have this saying, "what's worse, racism or the people who created it?" The constructs that elite classes manufacturer to institute forms of control are varied and endless. Race is but one flavor.
One problem at the beginning of this video: What you and about a thousand others miss is that Kipling was both a supporter and Satirist of Empire. The Man Who Would Be King is a satire on Empire and British Imperial hubris. Specifically Kipling in his works emphasises the inability of white imperialists to really change anything and how they only try to change anything when they get overmighty and full of themselves forgetting that the people they are dealing with have their own motivations and history that mean that all the big ideas whites bring with them will either be subverted or largely rejected - often violently. In the Man Who Would Be King Kipling portrays - through his story - the conquest of british India as being the product of sheer greed and by people who are loveable rogues, but rogues all the same. One remembers they are there to get rich, the other gets ideas of Godhood. The result is they lose everything and everyone who put their trust in them is killed by the vengeful local elite that do not want to see any reforms enacted that would undermine their fundamental power. The result is that through their greed, delusions, and arrogance Imperialists not only lose everything but get the local people who trust them - and in a lot of cases Kipling argued were the best among them - killed and not only is everything for naught, it is worse than that as all those who might support positive change have been murdered and all because white outsiders get inflated ideas of what they can and cannot do. This extends to White Man's burden which is both meant to be taken seriously, but also satirise how ludcrious some white notions of what can and cannot be done are 'Bid sickness cease' is poking fun at White delusions of omnipotence as no one and nothing can actually conquer death. TLDR Kipling probably would have deeply appreciated Dune's complexity particularly its artful deconstruction of tropes.
I watched Dune last night (never read the books before) and now stumbled upon your channel. You've created some great stuff here and I will definitely check out more of it - thanks! The movie was great and awaked my appetite to now read the books aswell. :)
Those who think Dune is a white savior story had to both only give the first book a cursory read AND not read any further in the series beyond that. It could be argued the story is actually the direct opposite of the savior trope, as Paul's actions irrevocably damage Fremen culture and transform it into something else entirely.
Wow, Quinn, so appreciate the insight and effort you put into this. I've followed you since some of your later Dune summaries, and it's been such a joy to follow, not only for rekindling of the original Wonder for where Herbert took us, but to follow where your own thoughts go. Looking forward to following you in years to come, and taking in your own creations.
A.I. doesn't frighten me, thank you Clark. And at the end of the outline which the family finished, doesn't the human race join with the A.I. I thought the whole point of the series was to think for yourself and don't fear the unknown but face it learn from it and grow from it. What frightens me is what the A.I. will learn from humans and how we treat sentient creatures.
@@VaeSapiens Modern AI can track your face in a crowd of millions with face coverings, glasses, and a hat. AI also knows when you generally wake up, what ball you scratch when you wake up, most of the choices you would make given x, y, and z, and this is just stuff they admit to. Let alone them talking about AI being able to "read your mind" including the thoughts you don't even know you think as you subconsciously have thousands of thoughts per second and your brain filters it down to one thought I believe is how it works. Totally couldn't use this for anything malicious not like China and big tech are doing it as we speak to prosecute a genocide and enslave/kill any dissidence.
Ngl I don’t even remember if Paul is expressly white after reading children of dune on. I don’t even really see his skin in my mind, I see a figure in fremen clothes🤷🏽♂️ Edit: Pause at “warning” if you’re drinking or eating anything cause it’s coming out your nose 😂😂😂
@Fire Blood...I usually just go by the description of the author...Frank was more direct with the character's demeanor and intellect...never thought about how melinated the characters were
One book where Herbert specifically mentions race is The Santaroga Barrier. However, it's used as part of the story's larger plot. It's definitely worth a read.
Jared Diamond's thesis has been widely rejected by Indigenous peoples, who argue that what made Europeans different was their belief systems, which made them obsessed with development and progress at the cost of life and nature. It had nothing to do with resources or geography.
Although, there are people that reject the indigenous peoples explanation as in practice native peoples exploited resources and fought for territorial control of those resources in brutal fashion. Just ask the Aztecs. But even in Canada look at how the Iroquois controlled territory or the Cree and Inuit blood feuds.
I have heard/read that societies development technology based on their current needs, so if a society doesn't require something to be built, it will most likely not happen - it's clear that many Indigenous people in the Americas and elsewhere developed spectacular methods of city planning, agriculture, weather measurement, and animal husbandry (etc.). It is a very "Western" concept that technology and progress is linear, and not something that is motivated by a society's demand/needs.
That was a wonderful, detailed and nuanced exploration to answer a truly loaded question. Excellent video! Thank you for all your hard and dedicated work Quinn. New subscriber here! Excited to dive into your other works.
Combining the ideas of Jared Diamond, manifest destiny, and the text of Dune, this is the most insightful intersection of ideas I've ever seen on this topic. Incredible. I feel inspired.
This is an exceptional approach to this misconception! Well thought out, well laid out, and perfectly executed. I found your channel last year while going through the Dune series and have always been impressed with your videos. Thank you for doing what you do!
Algebra was horrible, Triganometry? Easier. What was embarrassing, is my dad was a Math and cutting edge Computer professor......didn't inherit the math brain, but my vocabulary is great and I kick ass at trivial pursuits!:)
Paul’s rise because of the prophecies presented before him is similar to the European Spaniards who conquered the native Inca and Aztecs. They had a legend of the light skinned bearded god Quetzalcoatl. There were many other factors like superior weapons and sickness but the legends made the people in awe of the newcomers. There are similar legends in other areas like Polynesia.
You have so much great content. People think it's a white savior story because of the 1984 movie, but even then, Stilgar was white in that movie and race didn't seem that big a deal. People just are ignorant and like to complain.
I own that book. One thing that should not be ignored is that Europeans took maximum advantage of the political disputes existing between the differing native groups. Many native peoples welcomed the newcomers as a support to use against their native enemies. Most did not recognize them as the threat they were until it was far too late.
Very well written couldn't agree more, nothing has changed they use drones and digitisation now, then try to make you feel bad. By saying your playing the race card.....which is manifest nonsense.
Yep, that's how the Romans succeeded in building an empire. They played the local tribes and kingdoms against each other until they became a either a client kingdom or province.
Yeah if you compare Dune to a movie like The Help or Avatar (2009) there is a huge difference. The way we normally look at story telling, we assume Paul is the hero of Dune. But compare his impact on the Freemen to Jake Sully's on the Navi. Jake saves the Navi by learning their ways in a super short amount of time. Whereas Paul uses a inbuilt religious prophecy to manipulate the Freemen for vengeance of the system that destroyed his house (huge over simplication). Paul doesn't save them, he dooms them. I am sick of seeing the 'white savior' label being applied to Dune because it should be used to critique movies that do it in a damaging way. Movies like Green Book that alter history to present a white savior redemption story. This even ignores the books ambivalence to race the way we view it, as Quinn suggests. Great video mate, really interesting.
Actually, Kipling's poem was a satirical warning. If you think he has a white superiority complex, you may want to read some of his other works, Gunga Din, The Ballad of East & West, Kim. Only a superficial reading of works without context would say he was racist.
The movie Starship Troopers got slammed when it came out by some critics for romanticizing military fascistic aesthetics and culture. That's funny too, because it's so obviously satire. Viewed it again the other year, and the fact that the fictional society speaks to me as an adult, who am military by profession, reveals how alluringly charming and dangerous it can be. Edit; read that poem now, and by no means is it obvious that it would be satire. Maybe in the context of his other works? Would lie if I didn't say the poem has unironically a point; for all the cruelty of imperialism, in the long run, white colonialism gifted the countries civilization. Vaccines and foreign aid has probably saved many more millions than colonialism killed, the colonialism was wrong on a moral/principal level rather than utilitarian level. Monte Pythons sketch "What did the romans ever do for us", for comparison. Long post, english is not my 1st language, so sorry if grammar, phrasing or spelling is a bit messy.
What about the movie adaptations of the book though? In the the first book there is one more description of a Freeman that was tanned and had Sandy blonde hair. In the books the Freeman were fierce warriors and in the Hollywood versions, they make it seem like the Freeman were lost without Paul. That Paul was their savior, where in the books it’s clear that the Freeman were Paul’s saviors.
The intent of this video I believe was to specifically talk about the books, and only the books, since the movies are derived from them and not the other way around. So while hollywood will have it's interpretation of Dune, the question was about the initial interpretation can have of the novels.
@@nerdanalog1707 I know, I’m hoping Quinn will make another video addressing the possibility that Hollywood has adapted the story to fit the “white savior trope”. Christians did it with Jesus, why wouldn’t Hollywood do the same with Dune?
Is this because the characters onscreen in the movie have different races but in the original they did not? There is no essence given to anyone skin colour except to describe it, the bene sisterhood are eugenic wielding social climbers with a very intense Pilates regime! On top of that there’s an entire planet(basically slaves too) and a guild addicted to substances and they are essential how that entire society functions…in the end Paul is a mere tool himself and has almost 0 agency.
"White Man's Burden" - The most destructive humble-flex of all time. "Let's do a trade: we'll give you access to our shining city on the hill, with all the trappings of our morally and technologically superior civilization, and in exchange we'll just strip-mine, enslave, and rape your homeland." Reminds me of that admittedly-overused, but still amazing, quote of Mahatma Gandhi when asked his opinion on Western Civilization: "I think it would be a good idea." Dune was a critique of this saviour narrative; not a positive example of it.
@@Len124 so you are a toss the baby with the bathwater guy. It is easy to critique and harder to recognize how progress really occurs towards human freedom. Ever critique saudia Arabia and the active slave markets that exist this today?
@@peacehunter26 You seem overly sensitive vs taking Leo's statement on face value. White Burden's was indeed yet a narcissistic view of their importance and how in fact, other races were uncivilized until the compassionate altruistic hand of the whyte man, assuming others to be inferior injected himself, into their societal context to "save them"..such bullshit.. but you've grown up in a society where this is buffeted against your thinking capabilities from the time you were born.. unless through some exceptional internal fortitude, you and the rest of the masses will never break free of the continuous, relentless brainwashing of white supremacy.
It's not an all or nothing scenario. You can call it what you want, but Korea/Japan/Singapore/Hong Kong/Taiwan all prospered using western ideas. Also it's ironic you mention Gandhi as his parties beliefs systems destroyed India's prosperity for decades. If it weren't for Gandhi and his followers politics, there's every reason to think India would be the dominate global power at the moment. China was far poorer than india not that long ago, and yet it managed to catch up, meanwhile india's growth period started only a few decades ago.
Hey man! Great video thank you for the really clear explanation. Ive read Dune and loved it, but still havent gotten around to reading the rest of the series. At the end of the first book Paul and the Fremen certainly seem poised to achieve all they desired, but in fact only Paul has succeeded in his goal. The Fremen may now have power by being associated with Paul, but they technically arent any closer to achieving their goal. That's an important distinction i never realized until i watched your video. Thank you!
I see it as essentially a satire on Lawrence of Arabia. In Dune, he's represented by Liet Kynes and Paul. So yes, something of a white saviour used to recruit a native army. Except in the new film, where race and gender swapping Kynes erases his main purpose as representative of colonial patriarchy.
I mean lawrence was just working for the british empire. he wasnt a savior of any sort lol. Reminder that slavery was literally still legal in the ottomon empire during the time of ww1. IT was a lose lose for the arabic world and their society was 100 years behind on top of everything. They didnt even understand the value of artillery.
@@a.amousa6457 Dude, he literally spoke about how the crown was taking advantage and just using it for their own gain. He wasnt saving anyone, he was just working for the british empire to open up more fronts against the ottomans. They werent saviors by any means just beacuse they needed their fighting force.
@@nullakjg767 actually your right the Brits had colonial interests in the region and Lawrence knew about the sykes picot agreement before invading Aqaba. But his promise to the Arabs with I dependence did happen in the end. it depends on what lens we look at the story to determine whether he was a white saviour or not.
🤣🤣🙄 Maybe the guy that wrote that poem still believed that bleeding someone would also bring down a fever. Love the patriarchy lmao the MOST powerful people in the Dune universe are women. The 21th century idea of what a powerful woman is, IS wrong and that will show it self in our society. Second Herbert says in an interview what he really wanted to write and warn people about was leaders and government, he thought that the most important President had been Nixon because Nixon showed you to not trust government. Paul struggles with this that no matter what he does he is a tool of fate and it can not be stopped. He says multiple times he can not stop the Freman. Read the BOOKS
Women can and do enthusiastically uphold patriarchy. It is a rational choice for an individual. That's how these systems continue even in cases where the oppressors are vastly outnumbered by their victims.
I absolutely think now, after consideration, that the "White Savior" trope is not a unique thing that means white people want to be the center of attention and the hero of outsiders or people that ostensibly can't figure out how to help themselves. Not at all. Western Civilization is also a White civilization. White people DO come from Europe. They do have a homeland AND a culture. They aren't magnanimous gods meant to know everything and please everyone. They're people too. When they create media/culture for themselves, it's not so crazy to think that these stories involve White people too. As a quick aside, it seems that White people are the only people in the world that are meant to feel guilty for creating things for themselves. No one else is ever told they have to create media/art/movies for other people too. No one would ever go to Japan and make them feel bad for having so many Japanese people in their movies LOL So, the white main character in a book/film/show made by White people is meant to be relatable to the audience of White people. When it takes place in a foreign land, that character is a fish out of water, LIKE THE AUDIENCE, who is meant to see things for the first time just like we are. They are there for the audience. Also, when a White character is in a White country in a movie and saves everyone we don't call it a "White Savior" trope even though the structure is the same and the main character is White. Just because a European/North American made film takes place in a foreign country and the relatable protaganist is from a White country doesn't mean that it's meant to convey the superiority of White morals or ability or anything at all. There are many many films produced in non-White countries where the main character is in a foreign land and is the hero in the end. They get to have the film take place in an interesting exotic land AND the main character is still relatable because they come from the same culture as the audience. There are a lot of bull shit phrases and terms coming out and people take them as gospel. It's like a new religion for some people; a tribal/racial cult or something. It's the goal of that cult to denigrate and abuse one race and praise and uplift others. It's antithetical to our values as a civilization and it's a poison to a society that is multi-racial. The last thing you want to do in a diverse country is privilege some people and denigrate others based on their race yet our universities are turning out these kinds of people by the millions every year with their heads full of hateful racist identity politics. We need to rethink these sneaky terms meant to divide and abuse people.
"As a quick aside, it seems that White people are the only people in the world that are meant to feel guilty for creating things for themselves." There it is. The victim narrative that leads down the garden path. I was waiting for it.
I don’t see how anybody unironically thinks this is a “white savior” story. I can see the “chosen one” trope but “white savior” is a stretch. Hell paul being a man came down to Jessica altering him in the womb because Leto wanted a boy.
Herbert was very ahead of his time and I believe he thought far into a possible future. I've always suspected that he kept his characters' race ambiguous so that anyone could identify with many of the Dune characters. This is a story of Class, Revenge, and manipulations that could go awry by following a cult/charismatic leaders.
I dunno, Caladan to me seems very much a reference to Caledonia, harkonnen seem to be a form of Russian nobility, And the fremen the Bedouin, Paul is very similar to Lawrence of Arabia, instead of riding sand worms, and leading attacks against spice harvesters, he led the Arab tribes to attack trains, the real worms of the desert I think dune might just be a dramatised version of the last hundred years or so, There was Russian involvement with the ottomans, and the British did go in and take control and change the status quo And I’m Lawrence of Arabia he does get molested by a Turkish commander, so it even has parallels with the barons appetites
@@FordPrefect-h6u yeah you could be right, I always imagined it to be a mix of the old tzars and German kaisers, both of which I believe are a derivation of Caesar, With the sadukar being analogous to the something like Cossacks
It’s actually funny because I’m from Southern Italy and I have copper/olive skin (the south is well-known for having more tint to their skin compared to the North) and yet I’ve always seen myself and been classed as “white European.” When I first visited America though I was instantly not classed as “white European” but classed as a “person of colour.” America is so weird on this stuff lol.
Another funny thing, recently (like last year or so) the New York Times put a list of the richest/most powerful people in America, they categorized Spaniards as "not whites" Most assume this is because they just saw a Spanish-looking name/surname and throw them under the American-Hispanics umbrella. Ironically, the whole point of the NYT article was to show "racism", but that whole thing with Spaniards ended showing the NYT just as racist as prejuiced. I am not surprised I was recommended that if I ever go to America, to always say "I am European" instead of "I am Spanish" or they will see me as a Hispanic. And for what it's worth, as far as I was told, despite their skin color, in America and England (probably in other parts of the anglo-sphere too) people like the Irish, Italians, or Greeks weren't seen as "pure whites" either, which by your history, it seems to still perdure.
@@LtAlguien not just Spaniards, but the Portuguese too... It was a strange moment when someone told me I was "not white" because my family is from the Iberian Peninsula.
Kipling was telling people to NOT go be saviors. "Take up the White Man’s burden- And reap his old reward: The blame of those ye better The hate of those ye guard-" He's saying, as an old colonial soldier, British imperial, and veteran, that the Empire game is doomed to fail and is worth nothing In The end but misery. Why people can't get this poem is beyond me. You see it mentioned everywhere but it's like no one has actually read it.
@I Said What I Said All that minorities can be interpreted in the class struggle as opressed, its included. Thats not a gotcha, that class struggle is way more nuanced, with that included, than usually portrait. And diverse. That are opressed cariants ofclasses you mention. Who can overlap and be intersctional. That class struggle, is intersectional . With a diverse aproach toward making a fairer society. Together .
Possible irony being that concepts of herrenvolk, white savior, and even race itself were arguably fabricated so aristocracy could beguile the other castes to believe that any kind of foreign culture was the only threat the lower classes should be concerned about.
Quinn, I gotta say you are one of my favorite channels! Huge Foundation can (honestly, THE series that got me into reading) and Dune. You introduced me to Hyperion, so will always be thankful to you for that. Keep it up man!
The Fremen used Paul just as much as Paul used the Fremen. They waged religious war on behalf of Paul. This forced Paul to embrace his role as a zealous religious leader. I think Paul naturally wanted to be a diplomat, but Fremen ideology forced him to be a tyrant. There’s a really cool part in the appendix Dune that talks about the Bene Gesseret. They would send propaganda down to other planets, shaping the development of their religions so that they would one day view the Kwisatz Haderach as their savior. But the Fremen were the only people that corrupted this propoganda, making the Kwisatz Haderach their own personal savior, not the savior of the universe (if I remember correctly). This caused the Fremen to take control over Paul, giving them massive political and religious power. The Bene Gesseret are the white saviors, and the Fremen used their white savior complex against them.
Thanks for this Quinn. Sometimes it seems the biggest presumptions tend to occur with folks who start with the film/tv adaptions and then jump into the novels afterwards. Hopefully the current movie and it's sequels might calm people down a bit. For my family, Dune has been our heritage as rabid readers for many decades, so the current implied themes took us by surprise. Keep on with the good work, man.
Your videos are so interesting. I read the Dune series in my late 20s, and I love them, but I never thought much about these issues. I was surprised when Paul used the Fremen to wage Jihad, but I didn't think of it in terms of good or bad, it was just what was happening in the story. It's interesting to re-visit this, now in my mid 30s, from an older and (hopefully) more mature perspective. Seems like it's time to re-read the first 3 books and experience all of the different layers that I missed before. Cheers for the great videos, Quinn!
You might find CGP Gray's *Americapox: The Missing Plague* an interesting watch. I loved Guns, Germs and Steel and there is an excellent documentary that was made from it as well. Really enjoying your channel.
I really like some of Kipling's writing -- in fact, his stories "With the Night Mail" and "As Easy as A.B.C." feel like theyc ould even be a pretty strong influence on Frank herbert and certainly on science fiction generally -- but the man definitely embodies imperialism in a way few others truly can. His writing is so good sometimes that I'm willing to go where he leads, but I want to fight with him at the same time. it's kind of great. Awesome video on Dune, as ever.
My question is: why is no one complaining that the Harkonens (who are looking like the villains of the story, Nordic name etymologically) are white? Is Dune a White Villain story?
This is fantastic! So much history here. You really make the most interesting content on this subject around. Loved "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Fascinating history about Herbert. Thanks as always for creating such interesting videos Quinn!
So happy to have discovered your Channel! I recently started reading Dune because the new Movie comes out (eventually) and I'd like to get an idea of the story as it was meant to be before it is translated to the screen. TOTALLY fascinated so far, and thrilled to see that my conception of the novel is on point with your assessment here! Keep up the good work and thank you for your time and content!
Its interesting to see how 80s properties (G.I.Joe, Snake Eyes, Blade Runner, Dune) are being rebooted ... a better idea of the story would be TO READ IT. and watch the original.
“white savior” is a concept that transcends whatever definition of “race” we’re working with right now in the real world. so, when I hear you say that race as we know it isn’t important in Dune, that seems orthogonal to whether Dune is a white savior story you correctly highlight that there are different dimensions of humanity at play here, like the division between the aristocracy and the people in the Imperium. another is the division between classes of religious figures. those are the dimensions that we should consider when thinking through this question in good faith Paul was an aristocrat who exploited the religiosity of a people to advance his own goals while claiming (“truthfully” or not) that he would bring them prosperity and safety. that is absolutely a white savior story, where “white” is swapped for those positions of power and influence I also think people avoid labeling it as a white savior story to avoid criticizing Herbert. but, in my opinion, he intended it to be exactly this, and that is a good thing! Paul is not the hero, and the mechanism through which he acquires and wields power is indeed white saviorism. we shouldn’t shy away from that. Herbert’s ability to do this so poetically and masterfully is only another testament to his genius
Great video Quinn! Amazing level of research! And thank you for introducing me to the Dune saga. I just finished the first book and it was an incredible experience!
awesome stories are supposed to bring people together over shared interest. it's nice to see an intelligent analysis instead of click bait. you'll probably have to redo this again and again with the movie coming out! keep up the good work
I have an issue with the premise of this video. The idea of blanket statement of "This isn't a white savior trope" is entirely up to interpretation. Also, the trope isn't strictly on literal 'race', WITHIN THE NARATIVE. Think about this: Khajit in Skyrim are... bad, because it takes a Romani accent, Romani stereotypes and vices, and puts it in a cat-furry body. One could say that the Khajit narratively are racist. But others would say "Those are cats, no race involved" but we know better! Same here. All humans are olive skin tone, but they are culturally analogs of real world cultures. Just because the Freman are all singular skin tone, it doesn't wash away how awkward the narrative treats a tribe of people vs another.
I love your content, and this video was no exception! However, as someone who likes Jared Diamond, I would like to add that I've learned that he is not without his own issues. First, the questions he tackles are large in scope - so large, that we would expect no single scholar to be able to adequately answer them alone, let alone in a single volume. So his account will have to be superficial in places. Second, it's been pointed out to me (by youtubers) that Jared Diamond has his own blind spots, where his lack of critical examination of his own received views leads him to propagate not entirely racism-free explanations. Especially his account of the conquistadors' victories in meso- and south-America, I think, suffer from a lack of critical interpretation of sources. But nevertheless, I think he brings interesting questions and ideas to the table.
Dune’s entire historical narrative has always been, “Beware of the Tyrant wrapped in Savior clothing.”
Well said.
Absolutely, Dune speaks to humanity and the dangers of tyrants, as we see today, the rise of AI, something DUNE also warned of. But here again, we see those same tyrants using race, gender and nationality to pit us against each other, turn everything into a moshpit, attacking anything thoughtful discourse and putting in it's place PC nonsense. Thus we can't talk about anything less we offend someone, as our society crumbles and George Orwell's greatest fears become reality.
Personally I feel it's more complex than that, I think that's only one aspect of the story
@@Captain_Insano_nomercyIf frank wanted audiences to come to a single conclusion, it would be OPs. That's why he wrote messiah, because people didn't get it.
@jaquandrejones I don't disagree that it is a bulk of the message, but there are other elements to it as well
When reading the first book, I never had the impression, that Paul saved the Fremen, but he used them for his purposes.
They were horribly oppressed and treated as value-less serfs. Paul converted them into an ascendant power who basically conquer the entire human power structure. Now, they are under the sway of a messianic leader(Paul), but their position in society has arguably improved vastly. Unless you feel that individual freedom is more important than socio-economic power. But really, the individual freedom they had before Paul's ascent was basically the "freedom" to stay hidden from their oppressors. And it's never clear what proportion of them are able to, or choose to do this. If they could all just keep hidden, who are the Harkonnen slaughtering, exactly? And how?
@nick m. Lmao is that what you think? First off I'm pretty sure my ancestors would have rather been In Africa rather than have been Over here. Especially when our whole race were being subjected to Chattel slavery; Basically meaning we were thought of as property (just as you would any other cow or horse) instead of being treated as what we were, Humans. And I hate to get into this because I like white people, but Africa actually did better pre-colonization than any time in history. It was only until white colonization started when Africa got worse. What I don't think you get is that most Native people of any land actually liked living the way they did Pre-Colonization; maybe they weren't as "developed as the Europeans", but atleast we had our own separate and unique cultures. All Native peoples got the short end of the stick at the end of the day. For Example take the Native Americans; they had a beautiful and fascinating culture, and then all of a sudden that changed. Now they've been forced to live on "Reserves" on their own land! In case of Black Americans it might be better in SOME places over here than it would be in SOME places In africa, but that doesn't stop some of us from going back every year! What I'm trying to say is that you never "saved" anything because that was never your purpose; Everything White people did was for their own interests. Not ours.
@@jonvelde5730 Only the Fremen in the Cities, which the Desert folk didn't count were oppressed.
@@4leek No, everything that racist whites did back in the day was either for their own interests or for the betterment of all peoples. There was no one or the other. Also, none of that you experienced. You were never a slave, and live in the freest country on Earth. Stop whining about how awful every color is except for Black and go get a job.
@@4leek your ancestors would have continue to be in Africa if the slave traders didn't find it very profitable to deal with Europeans. Slavery in Africa had always been very big to the point of forming slave kingdoms and for good reason. Slavery is very good for the economy. Even more so when dutch merchants showed a very big interest in it so it's nothing new really for your ancestors. Let's not forget that the oldest slaves around are those friendly chaps called slave in Europe, they know a thing or two about being enslaved considering some call them the first slaves.
Let's also not forget that in the 18th century the British began a long campaign to abolish slavery due to the Brits getting ever more concerned about the immorality of it. Now they didn't bring flowers and snacks to have a nice chat with the locals, the governments wanted resources, an edge over other superpowers and they couldn't care less about the natives really but they did treat them a lot better than you would expect considering how brutal our old European friends were.
Dune is 100% a Worm savior trope
@thestoic110”now that I am a worm I will now be the worst and most oppressive leader ever known” leto the worm dude
“I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert
Anyone who says Dune is a White Saviour story is outing themselves as having never read it.
Great Herbert quote.
@Josh M read it, you're missing out. It's worth your time.
And it's pretty much the same people who have traded knowledge, cultural background and critical thought for posturing, prefabricated thoughts and convictions that are only valid while a certain trend lasts.
@Josh M You said the key word, friend: the norm. The norm, the imposed idea of normality which so many have embraced, almost without questioning, as if they were afraid of having thoughts of their own.
I almost feel inclined to make several more accounts just to give more likes to this comment
One quote, the entire story short: "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero".
Yes. The only way you could conclude that "Dune" is about a "mighty whitey", would be to not read it.
@@tomcavanaugh5237 "White savior" is patronizing comment from overly ambitious people eager to gaslight everything in cinema to get people talking about it.
@@SuperOmnicronsj44 Dances with Wolves and The Last Samurai would beg to differ. Lol
@@Purpleturtlehurtler yes, Last Samurai was a bit much - I'd throw in the Man Who Would Be King, as well ...
@@SuperOmnicronsj44 let's not forget Fern Gully.
There's something people tend to ignore. Thanks to the Missionaria Protectiva, the Fremen were primed to believe a savior from another world was going to show up. But the only thing limiting the Fremen was their mindset.
Paul himself has a vision that before his duel that whether he lived or died that the Fremen would go on their crusade across all human worlds, killing billions, cleansing many worlds of all life. They didn't need Paul at all, just a figurehead.
@Caitlyn Carvalho Two people's skin tones are mentioned in the books. Duke Leto has Olive Skin, and Chani has skin with a dark complexion that is pale from having never seen the sun so anyone thinking these characters are white is a product of their own prejudices.
@Caitlyn Carvalho he isn't gay he is a sexual predator of young boys. there IS a homophobic trope of villains being gay, but I dont think the baron fits it. the baron (and the harkonnens as a whole) are meant to represent the animals in opposition to the humans of the attreities in the way that Reverand Mother Gaius describes. the Baron basically indulges in every desire he pleases regardless of the harm it causes to others to the point that he can become likened to an animal - a predator. while paul and jessica are the 2 main characters and B.G. who are explicitly human proved by the Gom Jabbar test.
@Caitlyn Carvalho because he isn't interested in boys, he doesn't engage in relationships he engages in SA and Rape. He also doesn't seek them because of their gender but rather because of their age.
@caitlyncarvalho7637no I don’t think the baron is. I think the baron would stick it in anything whenever he feels like it. Because he has no self restraint. He can’t prevent himself from shoving food down his face, can’t help but assault and abuse anything, including himself. Can’t stop doing drugs. He’s the antithesis to civilization. Civilized humans restrain base impulses to rise above. Do something more with their lives instead of doing whatever they feel like. Ya know?
@caitlyncarvalho7637 No i wouldn't consider the baron to be a homophobic stereotype because his character isn't a talking point on gay or even sexuality but more animalistic disire's and what happens if you are lead by them (also he's more of a pedophile regardless since he's raping young boys)
The Dune Series summarized:
Dune-
The Reverend Mother and Emperor: "Ah man, we fucked up!"
Dune Messiah-
Paul: "Ah man, I fucked up!"
Children of Dune-
Leto II: "Man, all the adults really fucked up!"
God-Emperor of Dune-
*Leto II explains the Gold Path*
Siona: "That's fucked up!"
*kills him*
Heretic of Dune-
Honored Matres: "The old empire really fucked up."
Chapterhouse: Dune-
Honored Matres: "Ah man, we fucked up!"
Likely plot of the last unwritten book-
Duncan Idaho: Hey... I hate to be that guy, but maybe we should stop putting the fate of all of humanity in the hands of a small group of degenerate psychos that keep fucking up?
*The expanded Dune series:*
Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson: "We're incapable of fucking up!"
Everyone else: _"YOU. FUCKED! UUUUUUUUUUP!"_
Edit: Spelling, 'cuz I fucked up.
Perfect! 👌
Alternative ending to the 7th book-
Daniel and Marty: "Ah man, humanity is fucked up!"
Brilliant summation. I just finished reading all six books and came to the conclusion "These people talk too much"😂
Also Idaho: uuuuuhhh yeah I would also appreciate not being brought back as yet another Ghola, I’m kinda getting tired.
It _is_ definitely an Apocalyptic Messianic tale, with all the lessons and warnings of zealotry and religious conquests that go together.
I think it's a deliberate *deconstruction* of Messianic stories.
"Chosen one" stories are common to every culture, and all of them have been a mixed bag at best historically.
@@DreamMorpheus42 In the way Paul uses the mythic groundwork of the Bene Gesserit to take the reins of fremen society against his enemies? The way "destiny" seems to dehumanize those on its paths? I definitely agree
@@roywiseman you are right don't understand why so many people beleve it
@Hans Harpy lol not sure Arab was a thing back then buddy 🤣 that's a new culture based on the conquests of Muslims
@Hans Harpy Jesus was a Palestinian Jew, but that doesn't fit the meter very well.
Muad'dib is nobody's savior. He used the freman for his and his family's survival, and became trapped by the prophecies made about him. He did have great powers, but those powers became a curse because he was able to see what would be done in his name. In the end he was left helpless by the religion that enveloped him and his family, and he walked out into the desert to die.
Then his son just came up and went "worm mode activate!! Genocide god Emperor a go!!!!!".
@@Needler13 His son is basically what Paul probably would have become if he was fully on board with the path. Paul did and caused horrible things, most if not all the events are practically his fault BUT he realized he was wrong and tried to at least gain some level of redemption (which no I don't think he's redeemed at all). His son was a lot more dedicated then he was, which is literally the worst thing that could possibly happen.
@@gaynarchist true, however his son going down this path is what eventually led to humanity's survival
@@varicosevisage4794 But at what cost? It was really only “humanities survival“ in the sense of the species itself rather than the individuals. How many generations were wasted because of that?
Fremen lives matter!
It always strikes me how youtubers like you Quinn, when properly motivated, almost always do better nuanced and researched essays than established journals, from whom it would be expected a better job since that is actually their job.
That is the difference between hacks doing a day-job and passionate fans spending their non-job time on something important to them
Journalists are trying to sell a story and a belief, whether that belief aligns with the truth seems irrelevant now, and often the one trying to sell the story, hasn’t read the story at all.
What Quinn is doing is straight up Literature Studies, including interdisciplinary findings from cultural studies and critical theory. I'm not sure what kind of "established journals" you are referring to, but once you move past simple entertainment press into the academic journals and publications dedicated to the fields of art history, film studies, literature studies, media studie, gender studies, critical theory etc. it is exactly this content you get (although in a much more in depth way). Not saying Quinn can't do it better, it's really just a question of the medium. RUclips canonly do so much.
I'm glad you are enjoying this content, but please don't think its solely a question of motivation: this content stems from a tradition of liberal arts. So next time you hear people make fun of English majors, gender studies etc. remember it is those fields enabling us to sharpen our discourse and develope the analytical toolsets to deconstruct and explore media.
Modern journalism is not really journalism. They are told what to write, and are given little time to properly research the information. Or the journalist comes up with an idea and the editor just approves it because the news cycle demands a constant stream. This is why you get so many articles or news stories with false information.
@@jakobeisenstein4886 I'm afraid the industry of popular journalism and click-bait is reaching a lot more audiences than academic publication. So the fact that there are youtube channels like Quinn's placing real content and analytical thought in the wilderness of general consumers is actually the most refreshing hope I have seen for the future of academic influence in the broader culture.
"The actual conflict of the Dune saga is clearly between the elite ruling class, and those they manipulated and oppressed."
Totally nailed it, and there are clear parallels to current day. This is the best Dune content channel on the 'tube, and it's not even close.
And now we have the elite ruling class using race and victimization to manipulate even further through tokenism and preachy intellectualism disguising as gaslighting.
AWESOME! The one cool thing we have to escape, we have to deal with, then get cancelled ...I love this era!!!
Thats the good old marxism. For marx gender, race, etc. Were forms to create conflict among the working class. For marx only the material matter, the only political issues were material issues, and thus economical. Yeah socialism doesnt work, and when It works Its totalitarian distopya (a.k.a. China), but Marx framework is way better than the liberal progresive framework of the modern left. Cultural Marxism doesnt exist, for Marxists Liberals were wolfs in sheeps clothing, for liberals Marxists were dangerous extremists and a threat for democracy. But both as left try to claim heritage from marxist criticism. What we have now is probably the worst of both worlds. What we should rescue from marx is his materialism, race, gender and other shenanigans are not important. Power corrupts and then ones in power are corrupted.
@@bemersonbakebarmen "Yeah socialism doesnt work"
... and as it was written on the wall of one Roman legion's barracks "Feudalism does'not work. It is a dangerous utopia!"
@@НикакНетфамилии the Roman didn't have at least 300 million graves to point to.
@@tsoliot5913 Neither does socialism.
I also hear the "noble savage" trop being called out with Dune. And... like... no? The series as a whole is about how breeding and genetic purify lead to destruction, how medelling or idolizing with religions and cultures leads to war, and how putting your faith in ideals rather than logic can destroy whole planets.
I disagree with the logic vs ideals part but everything else is true. I think this story was also a fair warning against just thinking logically. For example the exploitation of a resource that makes one people's rich as opposed to the conservation of your ecosystem. This is an ideal right there... one many characters died for in the books too
@@miurtouissi1093 your example of exploitation vs conservation isn't really a logical argument though, not sure I'm following you
@@kj_H65f she said dune teaches us how putting your faith in ideals vs logic can destroy whole planets but I think it depends on the ideals. Humans can't live without ideals we just have to choose cautiously. One ideal that I think is not dangerous is deciding to choose ecology vs exploitation when exploitation is the logical thing to do to become rich. I think this rather than destroying a planet, it can save it. In a world where exploitation is the way to survive and succeed, conservation is not logical and more a declaration of faith that people believe in the future. I don't think this is destructive. I also don't think that putting logic above every thing was the point of the story. Fundamentally Paul was a result of a rational breeding, he was a genius who was able to manipulate the human mind. There were warnings in that (eugenism, imperialism, science with no real purpose but to conquer). Even the banning of the AI. All of these to me were also a warning against blind trust in logic alone. Anyway I just think there is more to the story than this simple dichotomy.
Yep, ideals make you blind therefore a criminal, capable of killing millions because of your idea. That's what communists did. And are doing.
I agree with the warning about just thinking logically.
Gulags and death camps came from logic. Emotionless logic.
You don't have money to pay workers so you need slaves, you make gulags and invent crimes to fill them.
You have a people blamed for all the country's problems, therefore you eliminate them, problem solved.
As a Filipino, I'm glad you brought Kipling's poem up. A lot of people in both of our countries have forgotten the Philippine-American War.
Note that most races have believed the same as Kipling for ages, but with their own race as the superior.
That's the kicker though, isn't it? We as a species always forget things, and what we do remember is selective. Everyone thinks they were the ones that suffered the most. Everyone thinks the way they live their life is the better way. Everyone thinks that if everyone else believed what they believe, then the world would be perfect. The truth is we are small silly creatures, posturing that we are greater then we actually are. Myself included.
"War is a Racket" - Smedley D. Butler, a retired United States Marine Corps Major General and two-time Medal of Honor recipient.
@@Kimchi_Studios unfortunately most Americans dont know about smedley Butler
@@vergil8833 MOST races??? Plenty of races have not believed that.
If dune has a hero or central protagonist it's definitely Duncan.
Did you know that dunken was never intended to be brought back. Apparently he got so much fan mail about people upset that dunken died, that he brought him back in next book and every one after that.
@@eaglesclaws8 In hindsight it was one of Herbert's best ideas having continuity in Duncan. Regardless of all the plotting and gradiosity of the major players, Duncan always gives us a grounded and sober perspective on the story.
@@themprophet1 I agree.
Yeah but I would love to Slap the Whiny Duncan from God Emperor.
@@eaglesclaws8 Glad to know. I can see how DUNCAN is needed, lol.
Whenever Kipling’s “White Man’s Burden” is brought up I think back to something an American newspaper wrote in response as the War in the Philippines turned into a messy guerrilla war: “Mr. Kipling, we’ve taken up the white man’s burden, now how may we put it down?”
I followed a lot of Game of Thrones-related channels when that was a thing. This is the only one that stuck. Thanks for enriching my brain.
Game of Thrones and Dune covered in one channel: Perfection 😆 I am seeing more great like the Foundation series as I scroll too. This is awesome.
I joined for the ideas of ice and fire and stayed for quinn ideas 👍
Same😁Quinn and lml, the only two left.
I still watch lucifer means lightbringer
You’re more simply listening to people talk about things you already know, and agree with. That’s what RUclips is designed to do. It is an engine of confirmation bias, not broadening horizons. Just something we should all be aware of here.
"im going to read a bit of this poem but warning its racist as fuck" is my favorite quote of 2021 until now
Read the rest of the poem. It's not racist, it's a warning against racial imperialism.
Kipling is saying is not saying Philippinos are monster-children, he's saying from experience that it's stupid to think like that.
Read "Shooting an Elephant" by George Orwell.
As a person of mixed race, who's ancestors have been mixing for hundreds of years, I always enjoyed the Dune series because I didn't have to grapple with the all too common 'choose a side, what do you look more like to other people' debate while reading. My mom introduced me to Dune pretty early on and scifi in general, probably because of this, but Dune never came across as a racial war to me. It's definitely about the traps of power though for all humans and I always loved that it showed it as a problem that humanity has to grapple with, regardless of spaceships or living on other planets.
There are only 2 things wrong about calling "Dune" a white savior story: the "white" part and the "savior" part.
Also "story" is pretty dubious. I'd prefer to call it a "relentless fucking experience".
It does a great job of showing why a savior is such an incredibly destructive concept. The status destroys just about every life it touches.
Is this dude Worm-phobic, or what????
Yeah but race politics are hot right now. Get clicks.
I always thought it was based loosely upon Muhammad!
i thought the whole human struggle was dwarfed by the ecology aspects of the first book, and the rest were about the consequences of the first on both the planet and population.
I really haven't caught on the ecology focus when I read the books, but that's possibly because awareness of ecology has really expanded since to the point where it's become just mundane backdrop.
To me the most engaging part of the first book was how society was shaped by ecology. Seeing how Fremen culture evolved around the scarcity of water (such as Paul's natural reaction of crying being held with extreme importance) had me re-read those sections of the book like 3x as much as the rest of it.
Nah. This is 2020. We got smart. Then quickly got dumb again.
@@chriszimmermann2582 Agreed. Absolutely fascinating. Reading the appendix about ecology was great. The dinner scene where the fremen spits made maybe the strongest impression on me out of everything in the entire book.
I really consider the entire Dune Saga to be separated into three distinct parts.
The shitstorm that led to the reign of Leto II.
The shitstorm that was the reign of Leto II.
The shitstorm that was the aftermath of the reign of Leto II.
The series really was done dirty by the last book never being written. I feel like everything would have come together in the end. Not necessarily any kind of satisfy resolution to what was happening, but at least a thematic crescendo of what Frank Herbert was trying to say.
After seeing Dune 2, I’m really glad they leaned hard into the fact that Paul and his mother are manipulating the Fremen for their own personal gain.
By the time of Children of Dune, no one can tell the difference between Paul and other lighter skinned Fremen, making him able to hide his ancestry from others, including the Fremen.
Only a victim would go the extra route of pointing this dumb sh*t out knowing there's black panther and a number of other feature films to resonate to.
@@SuperOmnicronsj44 it’s called a discussion mama….
I've always seen Dune as a deconstruction of the White Savior trope. On its face, it appears to be, especially if you limit your scope to the first novel, but with the series taken as a whole, taking into account the overarching theme of not trusting heroes/authority, you'd have a hard time saying that Paul and the Atreides *saved* the Fremen.
Paul and Jessica did free the Freman from the horrors of known mistreatment. Some good from.
Maud'Dib unfortunately took things tad to far and lost his way.
Leto II wanted more, always more, thus leading to great suffering, until he learned and tried to reset the path
Now the golden path, thats some horrors there.
That is what it was supposed to be.....but it fails to realize that the hang-ups and peculiarities he attributed to all humans were actually the preoccupation of a privileged min0rity (his demographic). in that sense, Dune is more pure power fantasy than it is hard science fiction with an existentialist aftertaste.
Well Timothy Chamba something is definitely white. So while the story of Dune might not be a white savior story, the movie definitely is.
@@aurora9252 exactly!
@@noelmuaddib2219 and they became a force of mass destruction and indiscriminate slaughter.
There's a scene in the first book where Paul recognizes two fremen by how they run across the sand. Kynes doesn't believe it and says, "You can't tell fremen just by looking at them."
@caitlyncarvalho7637There is no evidence to even remotely imply that Timothee Chalatme is racist
Kynes said that for appearances. He was disconcerted by the fact that Paul could see through subterfuge and had indeed identified the few Fremen hanging out with the harvesting crew.
@@Rokaizehe support israel
@@Blochr379 And that makes someone a racist automatically?
@@Rokaize israel is a racist colonial aparthaid state. He also played in a movie that draw a lot of inspiration from arab and islamic culture, people are mad that irl he support jewish fascist and play Space prophet that save the indegenous against coloniser
So Paul isn't a "Mighty Whitey!" Based on your description on his skin, and it being olive, he's a "Mighty Olivey."
The green olive black olive war of 29458 wants a word.
@@nyavogo all hail the superior green olive
Stupid and reckless to label, but whatever gaslights is trendy ... go for it.
But olive skin is a shade of the Caucasian diversity. It's actually the predominant skin of modern Southern Europe and it was probably the main color of Romans and Greeks.
@@TVaz7777 And the Greeks belong to the same haplotype as much of the near middle east, also, their skin is not green.
Wow Quinn, you REALLY laid it out for us... eloquent and precise.
The fact that Herbert studied psychology, and Zen Buddhism, really explains a lot. Having studied them myself, I can recognize some of his foundational, wisdom informed threads....is why it is SO great!
You answered this question so well, this is excellent.
It feels balanced, fair, and detailed.
You highlight how complicated the original question is, and give a suitably nuanced answer.
I like the personal touch you added at the end too.
If there's one thing you've taught us about DUNE, it's that the answer is "No". Now, I'll watch your essay.
Nom, Nom, Nom
More !!!! :)
good answer, i first read Dune in the early 80s because it was my Fathers favorite Sci-fi book. I watched an interview with Frank Herbert, back then and I have seen that interview since it stuck with me even back then but, I remember Herbert saying he wanted to create something that would tell that charismatic leaders are the most dangerous, that those people should come with a warning label on them. That he believed the most dangerous President that we had up to that point was John F. Kenedy and that the most influential President was Nixon, because Nixon showed you that government can not be trusted. That is what these books are. Its what Paul struggles with he wants to stop it, but he can't he is a tool of fate, he says in the book multiple times even if he were to die it would not stop.
@@tylerscofield9799 Exactly. 👍🏿
Yeah, I saw this video and thought 21 minutes is a long way to say No.
@@tylerscofield9799 oh, the devil we can see (Nixon) versus the devil we cannot see (Kennedy). Better to see and know than to not and wonder! Huhmmm….
"If you don't like someone's story, write your own." - Chinua Achebe
You do realize that he was *not* saying just ignore racist stories and write your own stories, right?
@@thx1138sixnine but Dune isn't a racist story and that goes for many other stories that are criticised as being "racist" or "white saviour" stories, in fact i doubt that racist stories even exist nowadays due to the fact that there'd be massive public outcry.... So your argument is kinda invalid
@@thx1138sixnine I think he was saying just that. We write what we know. And we write from our own point of views in time and history. We need more diverse stories because without them then we have no counter narrative. Can we write without inserting ourselves into our heroes?
@@thx1138sixnine lmaoo
What racist stuff is in dune, kiddo?
Great statement. Our society is way too judgemental.
I never got the impression that race, as we see it now, has any bearing on the Dune Universe. When a much evolved humanity, guided behind the scenes by the Bene Gesserit, seeks genetic perfection, not phenotypical preferences.
Yeah, I think if you have never heard of Dune but watched it. It does come off like, oh, here we go again. I feel like they didn't mean for it to come off that way, But like with character Neo (in the Matrix). It's like, this again? Lol.
Then you haven't been reading the books. The entire series is 100% about ethnicity and culture and colonization. It's literally a commentary on Russia and Afghanistan and what happened there in the 70s.
@@ambercarter2359 In the 70s? Dune and Dune Messiah was released in the 60's
@@meurer13daniel does that change the point of what I said at all or are you just commenting to correct me?
@@ambercarter2359 I'm correcting you. How is Dune a commentary of something that happened in the 70's, if it was released in the 60's? Or did you mentioned the wrong decade?
Here we go with this again...only those who HAVEN’T read the Dune series would spill such tripe.
I agree..
(Disclaimer: writing before finishing the video) I think an important distinction between Dune and stereotypical "White Saviour" stories is that Herbert kind of made Paul one purpose, compared to the stereotypical "White Saviour" story where the trope comes into play through accidents of writing choices.
Paul and Jessica are intentionally manipulating the Fremen thanks to the Missionara Protectiva unlike the stereotype where the "White Saviour" really *is* the destined hero by some magical natural fate rather than the actual intentional actions of himself and others that we're shown shaping Paul's life in Dune. Choice is an important recurring theme in the Dune saga, which doesn't really match up with the stereotypical White Saviour story where the "Saviour" character is swept up by a force bigger than themselves and there's no real explanation as to why they are better at something than the culture they have joined.
Not to mention the fact that while Dune gives us what seems to be a traditional hero arc the rest of the series brutally rips apart the "heroic" Paul. We are told very explicitly just how much he's damaged the Fremen, their way of life, how he's split their community into those who support him and those who hate him for destroying their culture.
Paul is, to me at least, a really great deconstruction of the "White Saviour". Of course whether that was Herbert's intention I have no idea, and honestly I don't think Herbert's intentions are too important (Death of the Author for the win). I can make the text support it so that's the argument I will make.
lol, other than knowing a lot more about the intentions of Herbert (which obvs Quinn is a far better expert in than me) my views match up with Quinn's pretty nicely!
The 1984 movie version of Dune doesn't talk at all about the Missionara Proctectiva, but despite its brevity in the book (I think it's only mentioned three/four times, once to Jessica by the Gesserit, once to Jessica to Paul, and importantly twice by Paul to himself as he tries to get himself out of a sticky situation) I find it central to all things that happen within Dune.
this is all true. But it is a white savior story and our friend is apparently... seriously.. traumatised.. hurt by that thought. He shouldnt be but is
@@langhamp8912 yeah, the 1984 movie goes full blown, unambiguous White Saviour, and since the movie is most people's encounter with Dune it unfortunately impacts how the source text is viewed.
@@charlesreid9337 hey, all reactions to fiction are legitimate. If your that's your friend's reaction then that's your friend's reaction. I hate some things that I know are objectively good fiction. It's a matter of Your Mileage May Vary. Experiencing fiction is a very personal thing. Herbert has done something that works on the theme of White Saviourism on some level. The fact that it's a type of deconstruction doesn't change the fact that it can still hurt people since a deconstruction still has to use harmful elements.
I kinda feel like it was less so in this adaption than the previous ones. The Fremen in the Lynch one seemed somewhat naive and helpless, which isn't really what the Fremen where supposed to be. But this one the Fremen seemed to have a lot more agency and certainly seemed a less orientalist conception. They where *active* participants of the desert.
"Time for some jihad."
"This sounds like some kind of white savior myth, yes?"
"No."
*LAWRENCE OF ARABIA*
@@sneedmando186 Are you suggesting that T. E. Lawrence, the actual historical human being, is an example of a fictional trope? Further, I'm not sure T. E. Lawrence would have considered himself to have been engaged in holy war at any point during his life.
@@migarsormrapophis2755 The historical T.E, Lawrence cannot be regarded as such, but the mythologised/fictionalised one from the movie most certainly is.
@@sneedmando186 literally my first thought.
@@migarsormrapophis2755
To answer you directly.
No
paul isn't a good guy, so i don't see how he could be called a savior, he didn't do the fremen any favors, arguably he destroyed them. even his son who arguably saves all of humanity inflicts an unimaginable amount of suffering on all of humanity, he intentionally cuts a scar so deep that humanity can never forget. its like humanity being saved by satan.
Paul tried! I mean, he failed. But he tried!
@@johnyarbrough2798 no he shied away from the golden path even leto the second commented on that.
Precisely, that's why I'm annoyed all these people commenting on the new movie not knowing paul causes a genocide and great jihad that killed billions, hes the ultimate villian in the story. Tried explaining that to my ex she just said no its racist and so are you paul is a mighty whitey stereotype, I couldnt help but laugh and say get off tumblr and read the damn book yourself, I never even saw paul as white.
@Muad'Dib 20k years ago with selective breeding by the bene gesserit blending in different bloodlines, the have olive colored skin.
@Muad'Dib you literally caused the destruction of the fremen and their culture, as well as unleashed a jihad on the galaxy that killed unfathomable numbers of people, numbers so large that they are almost incomprehensible.
And now that Dune has been released it seems that not enough critics have read Dune, because the white saviour critics are EVERYWHERE, despite fans best attempts to educate them. I wish a could a link of this video to each and every one of them.
The story doesn't exist in a vacuum. The realities of representation won't disappear just because the in universe understanding of "race" isn't the same.
Twitter has made me lose almost all hope in humanity, they will just complain about everything they can from what I’ve seen
Most of the time its just a few nobodies complaining. Twitter has given the always miserable and always dissatisfied minority a long reach.
On the plus side, the number of actual users on twitter, people who regularly tweet, is actually very tiny compared to the total population. On the down side, everybody seems to given them way more attention than their numbers and ideas warrant, for no compelling reason.
@@sststr Twitter get far too much attention. Just like with the news and Twitter its just not real and dose not reflect real life.
those twits are just dumbasses shooting themselves in the foot, and eating their own.
Half of them aren't even real people, they're just bots, but Hollywood, and the media thinks otherwise.
I’m 67 and such, I’ve been a reader of Scifi for decades. I love your content. I love your embracing of Asimov. Great analysis and research on this subject. You’re a deep thinker.
Yeah, but why LABEL anything. "Deep" means BENEATH the surface. LOL!!
@@SuperOmnicronsj44 you might want to get your hands on a dictionary
@@craigjones7343 Deep - adjective
adjective: deep; comparative adjective: deeper; superlative adjective: deepest
1.
extending far down from the top or surface. - anything else?
@@SuperOmnicronsj44 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
@@aurora9252 Dune literally is about not having a charismatic leader and Herbert said as much. I do believe tthe critics will try to undermine the film on lack of these many races ... so the White Savior thing will be played up.
I always had the impression Dune is a deconstruction of the White Savior tale, myself. It doesn't end well for Paul, as he watches the people he uplifts raze the galaxy while he can't do anything to stop it.
Frank Hebert really told us that charismatic leaders ought to come with a health warning, may be hazardous to your health...This includes saviors/Messiah figures
Weren’t they from a multi galaxy? Making them Alien humanoid not just human earthlings 😂😂😂 hell the main characters could have been green for all i know beings from another galaxy
Race literally has nothing to do with it 😂
The “A holy war in my name” scene in the first film seemed to be the embodiment of this.
The visuals, his tears, the terror in his voice, he knows *exactly* what will happen and not only doesn’t want it and is *terrified* of it, but knows there is nothing he can do to stop it. He knows he will be seen as a savior, possibly even a Man-god, but horrifying things will happen in his name. Billions of deaths, religious zealotry, manipulation, and deceit. And all based on lies and attempts to grow power by the Bene Gesserit.
But there is nothing he can do about it. Nothing he says or does will convince anyone or change his followers minds. All he can do is go along with it and accept the consequences. All while *hopefully* making something truly good out of all the evil that will come. And given Leto the 2nd, you can see how well that worked out in the end.
Amazing video as usual, Quinn! It probably says more about the society interpreting it than the source material itself that so many people assume 1) that Paul is white and 2) that he’s the “hero” of the story just because he’s the protagonist of the first novel. Thanks for covering this in such depth!
Paul actually has dangerous flaws that caused genocide and obliteration of religions across the galaxy.
I don't know why they think he's white except that's how he's casted in the movies. I always assumed Paul and the Duke were brown, having lived on Caladan which has a tropical like climate. I always thought Jessica was of Asian descendant because of her eyes. Only the Baron did I really think of as white. LoL What does that say about me?
@@orpheuscult75 Ending a religion is like the most savior thing he could do lol.
@@nullakjg767 ending a religion in a bloody way is genocidal like the inquisition. Don't u agree?
@@orpheuscult75 Not really, the only way to get rid of an infection is to cut it out. Thats like saying "surgery to remove tumors is actually bad" because you have to cut the body open first.
Lol Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooo
Honestly, saving the Fremen never seemed to be an objective. They were an asset to sway to their side and keep for themselves. A means to an end. Just because you don't intentionally mistreat them does not mean it's really saving them. They needed no saving. They didn't really want any saving. They were swayed by ideologies, roused to fight for and believe in a mythical religious figure who himself drowned in his own myth, unable to escape it. Nobody was really freed. Noone really saved anyone. But a whole bunch of shit went down.
It’s a subversion of the trope. It moves like a “white savior” story, but the results are more like the reality of the colonialist exploitation arc.
Makes sense when you consider race as a construct. I have this saying, "what's worse, racism or the people who created it?"
The constructs that elite classes manufacturer to institute forms of control are varied and endless. Race is but one flavor.
@@Koyasi78 The history of humanity has pretty much been small groups of people figuring out how to control everyone else.
@@Koyasi78 is sickle cell anemia a construct?
@@tsoliot5913 what is your function?
@@tsoliot5913 It's a genetic trait. What's your point?
“...but somehow it got me thinking about Dune.”
Is there anything that doesn’t, Quinn? 😂
It's actually a Worm Savior story.
One problem at the beginning of this video: What you and about a thousand others miss is that Kipling was both a supporter and Satirist of Empire. The Man Who Would Be King is a satire on Empire and British Imperial hubris. Specifically Kipling in his works emphasises the inability of white imperialists to really change anything and how they only try to change anything when they get overmighty and full of themselves forgetting that the people they are dealing with have their own motivations and history that mean that all the big ideas whites bring with them will either be subverted or largely rejected - often violently. In the Man Who Would Be King Kipling portrays - through his story - the conquest of british India as being the product of sheer greed and by people who are loveable rogues, but rogues all the same. One remembers they are there to get rich, the other gets ideas of Godhood. The result is they lose everything and everyone who put their trust in them is killed by the vengeful local elite that do not want to see any reforms enacted that would undermine their fundamental power. The result is that through their greed, delusions, and arrogance Imperialists not only lose everything but get the local people who trust them - and in a lot of cases Kipling argued were the best among them - killed and not only is everything for naught, it is worse than that as all those who might support positive change have been murdered and all because white outsiders get inflated ideas of what they can and cannot do. This extends to White Man's burden which is both meant to be taken seriously, but also satirise how ludcrious some white notions of what can and cannot be done are 'Bid sickness cease' is poking fun at White delusions of omnipotence as no one and nothing can actually conquer death. TLDR Kipling probably would have deeply appreciated Dune's complexity particularly its artful deconstruction of tropes.
Interesting… and a lesson my own country ought to have taken to heart before attempting decades of exploitative nation-building in the middle east.
Nice effort post. TLDR version: you can take the street pooper outta the poopstreets, but you cant take the street pooper put of the street pooper
I always thought Paul was modeled after Lawrence of Arabia.
@Go ahead puss Report Me and a real person.
The foreigner leading an indigenous people has occurred many times in history. T.E. Lawrence is a famous example.
Possibly John Carter of Mars too.
I watched Dune last night (never read the books before) and now stumbled upon your channel. You've created some great stuff here and I will definitely check out more of it - thanks! The movie was great and awaked my appetite to now read the books aswell. :)
Dune and the Olive-Skinned, Bene Gesserit / Noble House-born Savior
Dune and the Olive-Skinned, Bene Gesserit / Noble House-born Manipulating Charismatic Leader
Those who think Dune is a white savior story had to both only give the first book a cursory read AND not read any further in the series beyond that. It could be argued the story is actually the direct opposite of the savior trope, as Paul's actions irrevocably damage Fremen culture and transform it into something else entirely.
Wow, Quinn, so appreciate the insight and effort you put into this. I've followed you since some of your later Dune summaries, and it's been such a joy to follow, not only for rekindling of the original Wonder for where Herbert took us, but to follow where your own thoughts go. Looking forward to following you in years to come, and taking in your own creations.
I think Frank Herbert was also warning us about "Thinking Machines (AI)" and that humanity should be wary of it.
Stephen Hawking would agree with you. He did not speak positively of the potential of AI.
Good thing I know two answers AI don't understand.
Maybe and _________
A.I. doesn't frighten me, thank you Clark. And at the end of the outline which the family finished, doesn't the human race join with the A.I. I thought the whole point of the series was to think for yourself and don't fear the unknown but face it learn from it and grow from it.
What frightens me is what the A.I. will learn from humans and how we treat sentient creatures.
Modern AI still confuses a cat with a loaf of bread. I wouldn't worry.
@@VaeSapiens Modern AI can track your face in a crowd of millions with face coverings, glasses, and a hat. AI also knows when you generally wake up, what ball you scratch when you wake up, most of the choices you would make given x, y, and z, and this is just stuff they admit to. Let alone them talking about AI being able to "read your mind" including the thoughts you don't even know you think as you subconsciously have thousands of thoughts per second and your brain filters it down to one thought I believe is how it works. Totally couldn't use this for anything malicious not like China and big tech are doing it as we speak to prosecute a genocide and enslave/kill any dissidence.
Ngl I don’t even remember if Paul is expressly white after reading children of dune on. I don’t even really see his skin in my mind, I see a figure in fremen clothes🤷🏽♂️
Edit: Pause at “warning” if you’re drinking or eating anything cause it’s coming out your nose 😂😂😂
I always saw Kyle McLoughlin
He isn’t. His father is described as having dark skin and any time anyone else’s skin colour is mentioned in the saga it’s always as a shade of olive.
@@loxley75 that’s true now they mention it, it’s probably intended to convey that humanity has moved beyond the recognized races of the 50’s.
It sounds like the books and media are just different cause of casting like Thrones
@Fire Blood...I usually just go by the description of the author...Frank was more direct with the character's demeanor and intellect...never thought about how melinated the characters were
One book where Herbert specifically mentions race is The Santaroga Barrier. However, it's used as part of the story's larger plot. It's definitely worth a read.
Jared Diamond's thesis has been widely rejected by Indigenous peoples, who argue that what made Europeans different was their belief systems, which made them obsessed with development and progress at the cost of life and nature. It had nothing to do with resources or geography.
Yeah, was wondering if Quinn has read any of the refutations of that book. Very much flawed pop science.
Agree
Although, there are people that reject the indigenous peoples explanation as in practice native peoples exploited resources and fought for territorial control of those resources in brutal fashion. Just ask the Aztecs. But even in Canada look at how the Iroquois controlled territory or the Cree and Inuit blood feuds.
I have heard/read that societies development technology based on their current needs, so if a society doesn't require something to be built, it will most likely not happen - it's clear that many Indigenous people in the Americas and elsewhere developed spectacular methods of city planning, agriculture, weather measurement, and animal husbandry (etc.). It is a very "Western" concept that technology and progress is linear, and not something that is motivated by a society's demand/needs.
That was a wonderful, detailed and nuanced exploration to answer a truly loaded question. Excellent video! Thank you for all your hard and dedicated work Quinn. New subscriber here! Excited to dive into your other works.
Well said....
Combining the ideas of Jared Diamond, manifest destiny, and the text of Dune, this is the most insightful intersection of ideas I've ever seen on this topic. Incredible. I feel inspired.
This is an exceptional approach to this misconception! Well thought out, well laid out, and perfectly executed.
I found your channel last year while going through the Dune series and have always been impressed with your videos. Thank you for doing what you do!
Leaving a comment also helps the logarithm
Cosine
I like the natural logarithm ln(x) the best!
Commenting to comment. Namaste
It helps algebra too...
Algebra was horrible, Triganometry? Easier. What was embarrassing, is my dad was a Math and cutting edge Computer professor......didn't inherit the math brain, but my vocabulary is great and I kick ass at trivial pursuits!:)
Paul’s rise because of the prophecies presented before him is similar to the European Spaniards who conquered the native Inca and Aztecs. They had a legend of the light skinned bearded god Quetzalcoatl. There were many other factors like superior weapons and sickness but the legends made the people in awe of the newcomers. There are similar legends in other areas like Polynesia.
That and the neighbours of the Aztecs didn't like them that much.
I was just thinking that it's been a while since Quinn uploaded.
The Spice is Oil
The Spice is The Force
The Spice is the conjunctions of the Infinity Stones
The Spice is The Protomolecule
You have so much great content. People think it's a white savior story because of the 1984 movie, but even then, Stilgar was white in that movie and race didn't seem that big a deal. People just are ignorant and like to complain.
I own that book. One thing that should not be ignored is that Europeans took maximum advantage of the political disputes existing between the differing native groups. Many native peoples welcomed the newcomers as a support to use against their native enemies. Most did not recognize them as the threat they were until it was far too late.
Yes very accurate
Very well written couldn't agree more, nothing has changed they use drones and digitisation now, then try to make you feel bad. By saying your playing the race card.....which is manifest nonsense.
Yep, that's how the Romans succeeded in building an empire. They played the local tribes and kingdoms against each other until they became a either a client kingdom or province.
Yeah if you compare Dune to a movie like The Help or Avatar (2009) there is a huge difference. The way we normally look at story telling, we assume Paul is the hero of Dune. But compare his impact on the Freemen to Jake Sully's on the Navi. Jake saves the Navi by learning their ways in a super short amount of time. Whereas Paul uses a inbuilt religious prophecy to manipulate the Freemen for vengeance of the system that destroyed his house (huge over simplication). Paul doesn't save them, he dooms them. I am sick of seeing the 'white savior' label being applied to Dune because it should be used to critique movies that do it in a damaging way. Movies like Green Book that alter history to present a white savior redemption story. This even ignores the books ambivalence to race the way we view it, as Quinn suggests. Great video mate, really interesting.
Actually, Kipling's poem was a satirical warning. If you think he has a white superiority complex, you may want to read some of his other works, Gunga Din, The Ballad of East & West, Kim. Only a superficial reading of works without context would say he was racist.
The movie Starship Troopers got slammed when it came out by some critics for romanticizing military fascistic aesthetics and culture. That's funny too, because it's so obviously satire. Viewed it again the other year, and the fact that the fictional society speaks to me as an adult, who am military by profession, reveals how alluringly charming and dangerous it can be.
Edit; read that poem now, and by no means is it obvious that it would be satire. Maybe in the context of his other works? Would lie if I didn't say the poem has unironically a point; for all the cruelty of imperialism, in the long run, white colonialism gifted the countries civilization. Vaccines and foreign aid has probably saved many more millions than colonialism killed, the colonialism was wrong on a moral/principal level rather than utilitarian level. Monte Pythons sketch "What did the romans ever do for us", for comparison.
Long post, english is not my 1st language, so sorry if grammar, phrasing or spelling is a bit messy.
What about the movie adaptations of the book though? In the the first book there is one more description of a Freeman that was tanned and had Sandy blonde hair. In the books the Freeman were fierce warriors and in the Hollywood versions, they make it seem like the Freeman were lost without Paul. That Paul was their savior, where in the books it’s clear that the Freeman were Paul’s saviors.
The intent of this video I believe was to specifically talk about the books, and only the books, since the movies are derived from them and not the other way around.
So while hollywood will have it's interpretation of Dune, the question was about the initial interpretation can have of the novels.
Fremen.
@@nerdanalog1707 I know, I’m hoping Quinn will make another video addressing the possibility that Hollywood has adapted the story to fit the “white savior trope”. Christians did it with Jesus, why wouldn’t Hollywood do the same with Dune?
@@tomsenft7434 Thanks, I’m a terrible speller.
Is this because the characters onscreen in the movie have different races but in the original they did not? There is no essence given to anyone skin colour except to describe it, the bene sisterhood are eugenic wielding social climbers with a very intense Pilates regime! On top of that there’s an entire planet(basically slaves too) and a guild addicted to substances and they are essential how that entire society functions…in the end Paul is a mere tool himself and has almost 0 agency.
"White Man's Burden" - The most destructive humble-flex of all time. "Let's do a trade: we'll give you access to our shining city on the hill, with all the trappings of our morally and technologically superior civilization, and in exchange we'll just strip-mine, enslave, and rape your homeland." Reminds me of that admittedly-overused, but still amazing, quote of Mahatma Gandhi when asked his opinion on Western Civilization: "I think it would be a good idea." Dune was a critique of this saviour narrative; not a positive example of it.
I think you do not understand the white man's burden reference. The educated have an obligation to reach down and pull up the less educated.
@@peacehunter26 I think it's you that need to learn your history. See: Belgian Congo.
@@Len124 so you are a toss the baby with the bathwater guy. It is easy to critique and harder to recognize how progress really occurs towards human freedom. Ever critique saudia Arabia and the active slave markets that exist this today?
@@peacehunter26 You seem overly sensitive vs taking Leo's statement on face value. White Burden's was indeed yet a narcissistic view of their importance and how in fact, other races were uncivilized until the compassionate altruistic hand of the whyte man, assuming others to be inferior injected himself, into their societal context to "save them"..such bullshit.. but you've grown up in a society where this is buffeted against your thinking capabilities from the time you were born.. unless through some exceptional internal fortitude, you and the rest of the masses will never break free of the continuous, relentless brainwashing of white supremacy.
It's not an all or nothing scenario. You can call it what you want, but Korea/Japan/Singapore/Hong Kong/Taiwan all prospered using western ideas. Also it's ironic you mention Gandhi as his parties beliefs systems destroyed India's prosperity for decades. If it weren't for Gandhi and his followers politics, there's every reason to think India would be the dominate global power at the moment. China was far poorer than india not that long ago, and yet it managed to catch up, meanwhile india's growth period started only a few decades ago.
Hey man! Great video thank you for the really clear explanation. Ive read Dune and loved it, but still havent gotten around to reading the rest of the series. At the end of the first book Paul and the Fremen certainly seem poised to achieve all they desired, but in fact only Paul has succeeded in his goal. The Fremen may now have power by being associated with Paul, but they technically arent any closer to achieving their goal. That's an important distinction i never realized until i watched your video. Thank you!
Just started my Dune journey. Looking forward to finally watching all of your Dune content as I go.
I see it as essentially a satire on Lawrence of Arabia. In Dune, he's represented by Liet Kynes and Paul. So yes, something of a white saviour used to recruit a native army. Except in the new film, where race and gender swapping Kynes erases his main purpose as representative of colonial patriarchy.
I mean lawrence was just working for the british empire. he wasnt a savior of any sort lol. Reminder that slavery was literally still legal in the ottomon empire during the time of ww1. IT was a lose lose for the arabic world and their society was 100 years behind on top of everything. They didnt even understand the value of artillery.
@@a.amousa6457 Dude, he literally spoke about how the crown was taking advantage and just using it for their own gain. He wasnt saving anyone, he was just working for the british empire to open up more fronts against the ottomans. They werent saviors by any means just beacuse they needed their fighting force.
@@nullakjg767 actually your right the Brits had colonial interests in the region and Lawrence knew about the sykes picot agreement before invading Aqaba. But his promise to the Arabs with I dependence did happen in the end. it depends on what lens we look at the story to determine whether he was a white saviour or not.
🤣🤣🙄
Maybe the guy that wrote that poem still believed that bleeding someone would also bring down a fever. Love the patriarchy lmao the MOST powerful people in the Dune universe are women. The 21th century idea of what a powerful woman is, IS wrong and that will show it self in our society.
Second Herbert says in an interview what he really wanted to write and warn people about was leaders and government, he thought that the most important President had been Nixon because Nixon showed you to not trust government. Paul struggles with this that no matter what he does he is a tool of fate and it can not be stopped. He says multiple times he can not stop the Freman. Read the BOOKS
Women can and do enthusiastically uphold patriarchy. It is a rational choice for an individual. That's how these systems continue even in cases where the oppressors are vastly outnumbered by their victims.
I think my favorite part of this channel is that I feel like I'm learning while being wildly entertained.
I’ve been waiting since your tweet! Finally it is here and you treat us to a long video, thanks Quinn
I absolutely think now, after consideration, that the "White Savior" trope is not a unique thing that means white people want to be the center of attention and the hero of outsiders or people that ostensibly can't figure out how to help themselves. Not at all. Western Civilization is also a White civilization. White people DO come from Europe. They do have a homeland AND a culture. They aren't magnanimous gods meant to know everything and please everyone. They're people too. When they create media/culture for themselves, it's not so crazy to think that these stories involve White people too. As a quick aside, it seems that White people are the only people in the world that are meant to feel guilty for creating things for themselves. No one else is ever told they have to create media/art/movies for other people too. No one would ever go to Japan and make them feel bad for having so many Japanese people in their movies LOL
So, the white main character in a book/film/show made by White people is meant to be relatable to the audience of White people. When it takes place in a foreign land, that character is a fish out of water, LIKE THE AUDIENCE, who is meant to see things for the first time just like we are. They are there for the audience. Also, when a White character is in a White country in a movie and saves everyone we don't call it a "White Savior" trope even though the structure is the same and the main character is White. Just because a European/North American made film takes place in a foreign country and the relatable protaganist is from a White country doesn't mean that it's meant to convey the superiority of White morals or ability or anything at all.
There are many many films produced in non-White countries where the main character is in a foreign land and is the hero in the end. They get to have the film take place in an interesting exotic land AND the main character is still relatable because they come from the same culture as the audience.
There are a lot of bull shit phrases and terms coming out and people take them as gospel. It's like a new religion for some people; a tribal/racial cult or something. It's the goal of that cult to denigrate and abuse one race and praise and uplift others. It's antithetical to our values as a civilization and it's a poison to a society that is multi-racial. The last thing you want to do in a diverse country is privilege some people and denigrate others based on their race yet our universities are turning out these kinds of people by the millions every year with their heads full of hateful racist identity politics. We need to rethink these sneaky terms meant to divide and abuse people.
"As a quick aside, it seems that White people are the only people in the world that are meant to feel guilty for creating things for themselves." There it is. The victim narrative that leads down the garden path. I was waiting for it.
I don’t see how anybody unironically thinks this is a “white savior” story. I can see the “chosen one” trope but “white savior” is a stretch. Hell paul being a man came down to Jessica altering him in the womb because Leto wanted a boy.
Herbert was very ahead of his time and I believe he thought far into a possible future. I've always suspected that he kept his characters' race ambiguous so that anyone could identify with many of the Dune characters. This is a story of Class, Revenge, and manipulations that could go awry by following a cult/charismatic leaders.
I dunno, Caladan to me seems very much a reference to Caledonia, harkonnen seem to be a form of Russian nobility,
And the fremen the Bedouin,
Paul is very similar to Lawrence of Arabia, instead of riding sand worms, and leading attacks against spice harvesters, he led the Arab tribes to attack trains, the real worms of the desert
I think dune might just be a dramatised version of the last hundred years or so,
There was Russian involvement with the ottomans, and the British did go in and take control and change the status quo
And I’m Lawrence of Arabia he does get molested by a Turkish commander, so it even has parallels with the barons appetites
@@jackp492IK that Baron “Vladimir” seems Russian, but it’s also kinda German, even the title “Baron”, and his nephew “Feyd-Rautha”
@@FordPrefect-h6u yeah you could be right, I always imagined it to be a mix of the old tzars and German kaisers, both of which I believe are a derivation of Caesar,
With the sadukar being analogous to the something like Cossacks
@@jackp492 makes sense
It’s actually funny because I’m from Southern Italy and I have copper/olive skin (the south is well-known for having more tint to their skin compared to the North) and yet I’ve always seen myself and been classed as “white European.” When I first visited America though I was instantly not classed as “white European” but classed as a “person of colour.” America is so weird on this stuff lol.
Not as weird as Germany was
Another funny thing, recently (like last year or so) the New York Times put a list of the richest/most powerful people in America, they categorized Spaniards as "not whites"
Most assume this is because they just saw a Spanish-looking name/surname and throw them under the American-Hispanics umbrella.
Ironically, the whole point of the NYT article was to show "racism", but that whole thing with Spaniards ended showing the NYT just as racist as prejuiced.
I am not surprised I was recommended that if I ever go to America, to always say "I am European" instead of "I am Spanish" or they will see me as a Hispanic.
And for what it's worth, as far as I was told, despite their skin color, in America and England (probably in other parts of the anglo-sphere too) people like the Irish, Italians, or Greeks weren't seen as "pure whites" either, which by your history, it seems to still perdure.
@@LtAlguien not just Spaniards, but the Portuguese too... It was a strange moment when someone told me I was "not white" because my family is from the Iberian Peninsula.
Its because your ancestors are moors ie blacks so they can see your melanin that's why u have olive skin and are not considered WHITE !
Kipling was telling people to NOT go be saviors. "Take up the White Man’s burden-
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard-"
He's saying, as an old colonial soldier, British imperial, and veteran, that the Empire game is doomed to fail and is worth nothing In The end but misery.
Why people can't get this poem is beyond me. You see it mentioned everywhere but it's like no one has actually read it.
Great video. I always saw the story as more of a class struggle than anything else. Much like all of historical and current real life, you might say.
@I Said What I Said All that minorities can be interpreted in the class struggle as opressed, its included. Thats not a gotcha, that class struggle is way more nuanced, with that included, than usually portrait. And diverse. That are opressed cariants ofclasses you mention. Who can overlap and be intersctional. That class struggle, is intersectional .
With a diverse aproach toward making a fairer society. Together .
Possible irony being that concepts of herrenvolk, white savior, and even race itself were arguably fabricated so aristocracy could beguile the other castes to believe that any kind of foreign culture was the only threat the lower classes should be concerned about.
Quinn, I gotta say you are one of my favorite channels! Huge Foundation can (honestly, THE series that got me into reading) and Dune. You introduced me to Hyperion, so will always be thankful to you for that. Keep it up man!
The Fremen used Paul just as much as Paul used the Fremen. They waged religious war on behalf of Paul. This forced Paul to embrace his role as a zealous religious leader. I think Paul naturally wanted to be a diplomat, but Fremen ideology forced him to be a tyrant.
There’s a really cool part in the appendix Dune that talks about the Bene Gesseret. They would send propaganda down to other planets, shaping the development of their religions so that they would one day view the Kwisatz Haderach as their savior. But the Fremen were the only people that corrupted this propoganda, making the Kwisatz Haderach their own personal savior, not the savior of the universe (if I remember correctly). This caused the Fremen to take control over Paul, giving them massive political and religious power. The Bene Gesseret are the white saviors, and the Fremen used their white savior complex against them.
Thanks for this Quinn. Sometimes it seems the biggest presumptions tend to occur with folks who start with the film/tv adaptions and then jump into the novels afterwards. Hopefully the current movie and it's sequels might calm people down a bit. For my family, Dune has been our heritage as rabid readers for many decades, so the current implied themes took us by surprise. Keep on with the good work, man.
The Bandwagon Formula: Is [respected property] a/an [offensive social concept] story?
Your videos are so interesting. I read the Dune series in my late 20s, and I love them, but I never thought much about these issues. I was surprised when Paul used the Fremen to wage Jihad, but I didn't think of it in terms of good or bad, it was just what was happening in the story. It's interesting to re-visit this, now in my mid 30s, from an older and (hopefully) more mature perspective. Seems like it's time to re-read the first 3 books and experience all of the different layers that I missed before. Cheers for the great videos, Quinn!
The picture of Chaini (16:15) her cape is flapping to the left, but the wind animation is blowing to the right... lol.
Magic cape.
I'd say with the setting Dune is beyond that notion.
You might find CGP Gray's *Americapox: The Missing Plague* an interesting watch. I loved Guns, Germs and Steel and there is an excellent documentary that was made from it as well. Really enjoying your channel.
I think a lot of this stems from people only watching the Lynch movie, and never taking a step beyond that...
Great analysis and tie in with Jared Diamond’s work. A conversation between him and Frank Herbert would be fascinating!
I really like some of Kipling's writing -- in fact, his stories "With the Night Mail" and "As Easy as A.B.C." feel like theyc ould even be a pretty strong influence on Frank herbert and certainly on science fiction generally -- but the man definitely embodies imperialism in a way few others truly can. His writing is so good sometimes that I'm willing to go where he leads, but I want to fight with him at the same time. it's kind of great.
Awesome video on Dune, as ever.
Just found your content in excitement ahead of the new Dune film. I really enjoy all of your videos I’ve seen so far. Please keep making these.
I havent listened to it all yet because Im having dinner, but I want this promoted on the RUclips algorithm.
My question is: why is no one complaining that the Harkonens (who are looking like the villains of the story, Nordic name etymologically) are white? Is Dune a White Villain story?
This has to be satirical
Herbert did say the Harkonens were based on the Nazi's, so...
This is fantastic! So much history here. You really make the most interesting content on this subject around. Loved "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Fascinating history about Herbert. Thanks as always for creating such interesting videos Quinn!
So happy to have discovered your Channel! I recently started reading Dune because the new Movie comes out (eventually) and I'd like to get an idea of the story as it was meant to be before it is translated to the screen. TOTALLY fascinated so far, and thrilled to see that my conception of the novel is on point with your assessment here! Keep up the good work and thank you for your time and content!
Its interesting to see how 80s properties (G.I.Joe, Snake Eyes, Blade Runner, Dune) are being rebooted ... a better idea of the story would be TO READ IT. and watch the original.
“white savior” is a concept that transcends whatever definition of “race” we’re working with right now in the real world. so, when I hear you say that race as we know it isn’t important in Dune, that seems orthogonal to whether Dune is a white savior story
you correctly highlight that there are different dimensions of humanity at play here, like the division between the aristocracy and the people in the Imperium. another is the division between classes of religious figures. those are the dimensions that we should consider when thinking through this question in good faith
Paul was an aristocrat who exploited the religiosity of a people to advance his own goals while claiming (“truthfully” or not) that he would bring them prosperity and safety. that is absolutely a white savior story, where “white” is swapped for those positions of power and influence
I also think people avoid labeling it as a white savior story to avoid criticizing Herbert. but, in my opinion, he intended it to be exactly this, and that is a good thing! Paul is not the hero, and the mechanism through which he acquires and wields power is indeed white saviorism. we shouldn’t shy away from that. Herbert’s ability to do this so poetically and masterfully is only another testament to his genius
Great video Quinn! Amazing level of research! And thank you for introducing me to the Dune saga. I just finished the first book and it was an incredible experience!
awesome stories are supposed to bring people together over shared interest. it's nice to see an intelligent analysis instead of click bait. you'll probably have to redo this again and again with the movie coming out! keep up the good work
I have an issue with the premise of this video.
The idea of blanket statement of "This isn't a white savior trope" is entirely up to interpretation.
Also, the trope isn't strictly on literal 'race', WITHIN THE NARATIVE. Think about this: Khajit in Skyrim are... bad, because it takes a Romani accent, Romani stereotypes and vices, and puts it in a cat-furry body. One could say that the Khajit narratively are racist. But others would say "Those are cats, no race involved" but we know better!
Same here. All humans are olive skin tone, but they are culturally analogs of real world cultures. Just because the Freman are all singular skin tone, it doesn't wash away how awkward the narrative treats a tribe of people vs another.
I love your content, and this video was no exception! However, as someone who likes Jared Diamond, I would like to add that I've learned that he is not without his own issues. First, the questions he tackles are large in scope - so large, that we would expect no single scholar to be able to adequately answer them alone, let alone in a single volume. So his account will have to be superficial in places. Second, it's been pointed out to me (by youtubers) that Jared Diamond has his own blind spots, where his lack of critical examination of his own received views leads him to propagate not entirely racism-free explanations. Especially his account of the conquistadors' victories in meso- and south-America, I think, suffer from a lack of critical interpretation of sources. But nevertheless, I think he brings interesting questions and ideas to the table.