Again on Chemosh defeating YHWH

[@ShinyAvalon]

The Biblical literalists have really put themselves in a double-bind with this one. They can't say "YHWH lost," because they believe He is omnipotent. They can't say "YHWH lost once, but came back stronger." because they believe in Biblical univocality. They can't even say "the ancient Israelites only _thought_ YHWH lost," because they believe in Bible is the inspired Word of God, and inerrantly true. They have no way out besides holding their ears and yelling "IT DOESN'T REALLY SAY THAT, NOPE NOPE NOPE, LA LA LA I CAN'T _HEEAARR_ YOU!" about an account of a single battle between two Bronze Age armies who thought their gods were fighting with them.

[@kentstallard6512]

Exactly. Perhaps the primary point that Dan makes is that it's simply impossible to glean a consistent narrative from the collection of inherently ambiguous and contradictory mythology.
The Bible is a 2000 year old meme full of barbarity and absurdity but it remains influential.

[@TheProphetofLogic]

And.... there's the Moabite stone, giving the Moabite perspective of Chemosh defeating YHWH and even looting his timple.
Talk about a dibble bind, Ken Ham proudly displayed a replica of said stone as proof of the historical accuracy of the Bible yet it shows that Yaweh was defeated.
So YHWH is real, but a rival god beat him.
Yhwh is not all-powerful.

[@matthiascronqvist13]

This also proves the Bible is just nothing more than a story book as well. I can write anything I want and make it sound like it comes from ancient times or that my character is more powerful than god. Stan Lee did this all the time.

[@ShinyAvalon]

@@matthiascronqvist13 - Well, it's a book of actual mythology - meaning that it was created organically, by many believers over a long period of time, rather than by a single creator deliberately creating fiction for the purpose of entertainment. The Venn diagrams for folklore and fiction may overlap a bit at the edges, but they're not quite the same thing. Mythology and folklore only become dangerous when people try to use them, as Dan says, to structure power. Being overly literal is one way they try to do that.

[@jimaffinito1809]

Does anyone else get a nerds-arguing-about-comic-book-plots vibe here? I’m pretty sure that Dan know what I’m talking about.

[@nightwyrm4354]

I'm always reminded of fandoms fanwanking their long-running series (whether Star Trek, Star Wars, comic runs, whatever) whenever apologists are defending the bible. The fandom jumps thru so many mental hoops trying to resolve conflicting plot points when the simple explanation is that the episodes were written by different writers who forgot or ignore what has been written in a previous episode.
Or simply coz the writer got something wrong. Like that stupid Kessel Run thing in Star Wars. All those pages of fan theories and arguments to resolve that single line of dialogue and the simple truth is that Lucas mistakenly thought parsec was a measurement of time rather than distance.

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

Not me, that's superfluous stuff. I focus on the argument.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@nightwyrm4354 stick to fantasy Mythohististry isn't the fiction you think it is !

[@DoloresLehmann]

You get that vibe because it's basically the same. It's always a "how dare you touch my favourite narrative" thing.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Yea yeah, whatever, now let me explain to you why it is that Spider-Man would beat the Hulk in a fight.

[@msrealdoll]

"😮TikTok sweetheart and highly sought after dinner guest." Yeah I'm gonna need a t-shirt. 😂

[@TheSaintMystic]

"Highly sought after dinner guest" is a pretty funny compliment.

[@benroberts2222]

He's so annoyed that someone who disagrees with him is popular. It's like Mean Girls

[@pansepot1490]

Didn’t sound like a compliment tbh. Compares Dan to someone who has the gift of the gab and is entertaining regardless of substance. A compliment would be “sought after lecturer”.

[@funkatron101]

"TikTok Sweetheart, Dan McClellan" is not something I expected to hear this morning.

[@rainbowkrampus]

He woulda said dreamboat but he's too insecure about his masculinity.

[@funkatron101]

@@rainbowkrampus "Listen up, you Bible Scholar Beefcake! ... Whoops, I said too much."

[@iamfiefo]

Geez, this back and forth is becoming like Chemosh and YHWH fighting!

[@ericlipton7640]

It’s like Chemosh and a shaved guinea pig fighting

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@ericlipton7640 Why are just repeating what OP said?

[@Nymaz]

Don't worry, the apologist has promised YHWH that if he wins the RUclips fight he'll sacrifice the first thing to greet him when he comes home from recording the video. I'm sure it will all work out fine for him.

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@Nymaz Brb, I need to go set up this mirror...

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@ericlipton7640you need a shave! LOL 😂0

[@TheAntiburglar]

I'm honestly amazed at how cordial you consistently are in the face of absurd amounts of disrespect on the part of these apologists

[@DoloresLehmann]

That's Christian love. (From Dan's part, I mean, just so we're clear).

[@tussk.]

premature baldness has deeply upset him

[@JopJio]

Thats the problem with Christianity, apologists can just make stuff up and their followers believe them. Just today i came across a Christian who denies that there is slavery in the bible. Its hard to argue with ignorant and dishonest people

[@kentstallard6512]

For the first 15 centuries or so of Christianity, genocide, chattel slavery, misogyny, etc. were virtually universally embraced. It wasn't until the Enlightenment and the rise of humanism that a schism on slavery developed, with 600,000 Christians warring over it nearly 200 years ago.
Now? Almost no Christian apologist will, as you note, even admit slavery is in the Bible. They claim it's all indentured servitude, an obvious falsehood given Leviticus 25:44-46. Nowhere in the OT or NT is the practice repudiated but is instead reinforced.
This is a result of humanism and our species continuing to evolve socially. Now, the schisms are occurring not over slavery but LBGTQ+ and abortion rights. Progress, I suppose. I wish I could live long enough to see religion gone, or at least very marginalized. But our species also craves the illusion of certainty and security that religion offers.

[@PrometheanRising]

There's a verse that shows up in the Abraham story where someone indicates that YHWH has blessed Abraham with slaves.

[@JopJio]

@@beemixsyno joke, many claim that these were only servants and that the New Testament ended it completely with the verse of Paul that there is no woman, man, slave etc. anymore . 🤣

[@GeoffBosco]

We are the best humans to exist.

[@jon4574]

How thoughtful of Yahweh to wait until the enemy king sacrificed his kid to Chemosh before unleashing divine rage against his own army for cutting down not really forbidden trees.

[@CB66941]

To me what's funnier is how if fundamentalist Christians believed God wrote the bible or at least divinely inspired it, then God didn't make it clear enough why they lost. Like you would think in his omniscience he would write down the actual reasoning and be clear where the wrath was coming from if he knew that several thousand years later people would be arguing over it on social media.

[@davidnoneyabiz1412]

Even more, if God is truly omniscient, then he would have known that man would fall even before he created them. He would have known that Lucifer and a third of the angels would rebel, and that there would be more than one rebellion in heaven.

[@MichaelWalker-de8nf]

Kick his butt, Dan. Metaphorically, of course.

[@ClarkVangilder]

Conceptual framework is the KEY thing that Dan’s detractors keep missing in their own thinking. Their reasoning is blind to their own conceptual (and interpretative) frameworks and THUS they cannot see it when reading the Bible, or for that matter, anything. The only “framework” that they operate from is a dogmatic set of non-negotiable “facts” that cannot be ignored.
Sadly, as in virtually everything that modern Christian apologetics has to offer, the dogma demands that one make leaps of reason that are no better than saying 2+2=22 under our “biblical” definition of arithmetic where adding is joining symbols together on paper instead of measuring a grouping of multiple quantities. Moreover, they do this with the English translation of the Bible instead of the original text and all of the knowledge that biblical scholar can bring to that analysis.
I admire Dan’s ability to remain so balanced when responding to these people.

[@simonblackburn3704]

It's always impressive to watch a genuine scholar explain things in a clear and logical manner - especially when doing so involves debunking the claims made by those who are less knowledgeable (but who think they're smart). Dan, your videos are great! Keep it up.

[@nobodynothing6551]

Dan is engaging in a fight between Dan's data and this guys ego.

[@PrometheanRising]

Imagine not being able to come to terms with the fact that you should really be worshipping Chemosh.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

We prefer the Lord of darkness, as Exodus 20:18 states: "Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was." He forbids idolatry.

[@kentstallard6512]

The apologist gets more desperate instead of realizing he's digging a deeper hole. The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in this one. 😂
I can relate as a former ordained Christian minister and apologist. The cognitive dissonance is debilitating. Hopefully this guy wakes up one day. Defending the absurd, barbaric narratives of the Bible is ultimately an exercise in futility.

[@Tmanaz480]

Yes, definitely. Apologist thinks he's competing with Dan, but they're playing two different sports.

[@chronoplague]

I'm actually glad this guy responded, because I think Dan is a little clearer in this one.

[@ToddJSpencer]

Totally agree

[@FreddyMcFredd]

Top button of polo shirt being buttoned says it all for me.

[@Benjamin-jo4rf]

Hey. Hey hey. Let's not make fun of people's appearances. Dan literally wears Walmart comic book tshirts most commonly worn by 5 year old boys.

[@jamesjarvis3486]

So part of his argument is YHWH has not problem with killing women and children in the Bible but leave the trees alone because they are innocents?

[@HandofOmega]

Me: "So my house was surrounded by gangbangers, trying to break in. I called the cops. All the gangbangers then left and went home."
Guy: "Well, clearly their gang leader turned on them and just forced them to go home, then."
Me: "Whaa--??"

[@funkatron101]

1 Corinthians 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion"
Over 2,000 years later we have two men specifically arguing about whether chopping down trees causes God's wrath in a particular story. lol.

[@JimmyTuxTv]

gods not an author at all, humans writing as god is clearly confusing

[@funkatron101]

@@JimmyTuxTv Yup.

[@strappedfatman7858]

The Author of The Canon
Ezra 7:6 This Ezʹra came up from Babylon. He was a copyist* who was well-versed in* the Law of Moses, which Jehovah the God of Israel had given. The king granted everything he requested, for the hand of Jehovah his God was upon him.
The expression “Bible canon” came to denote the collection, or list, of books accepted as genuine inspired Scripture. The term “canon” is derived from the Hebrew word qa·nehʹ (reed). Reeds were used as a rule or measuring device. (Eze 41:8) Fittingly, the Bible canon, or catalog of inspired books, enables the reader to “measure” faith, doctrine, and conduct. The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was established by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. According to Jewish tradition, the skilled scribe and inspired Bible writer Ezra began the work, and it was completed by Nehemiah. (Ezr 7:6, ftn.) The writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures was completed during the time that the gifts of the spirit were operative on Christ’s followers. (Joh 14:26; Re 1:1) Some Christians had the gift of “discernment of inspired expressions.” (1Co 12:10) Thus, they could, without referring the matter to a supposed church council, determine which of the letters the congregation received were inspired of God. With the death of John, the last apostle, this reliable chain of divinely inspired men came to an end. Therefore, with the book of Revelation, John’s Gospel, and his three letters, the Bible canon was closed. The testimony of later, noninspired writers is valuable only as an acknowledgment of the Bible canon, which God’s spirit had guided and authorized.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@JimmyTuxTvstick to reading comics!

[@JimmyTuxTv]

@@davidjanbaz7728 I don’t read comics, I do read a human written book called holy by several religions.

[@JonathanMartin884]

I love it when amateurs think they can hold ground with experts. Talk about lack of self-awareness.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

LOL 😂 Dan only represents one side of Biblical Scholarship!
Many scholors disagree with Dan :
Do you ever see a real scholor on these videos: NO because Dan finds the low hanging fruit and by association thinks he is defending all of Christianity.
Minions like U buy this far left Fringe redaction scholarship.
Dan's meme is his Data ( Dogma) is better than others Data ( Dogma).

[@jojones4685]

​@@davidjanbaz7728I'm sure he agrues against other scholars in his scholarship. obviously he doesnt here because they dont make videos responding to him like these low hanging armchair scholars do

[@MrBerto800]

Why do these “religious self scholars” go up against Dan… 🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ it’s like a child playing basketball against their dad lol

[@ryanbuss6810]

Except this dad has no interest in letting the kids win 😂

[@Danny451]

In 1 Samuel 18:27, I like when David and his men went out and killed 200 Philistines and brought back their "4skins." David counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

[@JopJio]

That must have smelled very good.

[@Danny451]

@@JopJio 🤣👍

[@KaijuOfTheOpera]

Its just so funny seeing people not being able to take that their God could lose in a fight lol

[@evangelicalsnever-lie9792]

The bible says not to damage trees, especially food trees. Yet in the contradictory bible, the god that knows all, doesn't know the tree has no figs, the wantonly destroys it in a petty, illogical rage.

[@quranandbibleblog]

I love it when these random tiktokers with no credibility take it upon themselves to argue with a guy who actually has an education and is an expert on the subject.

[@stephenleblanc4677]

"I'm being perfectly consistent as I always have been." Mwah!

[@johna1427]

Yay! I woke up hoping for this lol

[@clifb.3521]

Well, he’s right about the highly sought after dinner guest part

[@scottharris1315]

Dan, another point is in verse 19, the Lord tells Elisha cut down every tree, stop their springs, and ruin their fields with stone. So they were actually commanded by YHWH himself to cut down all the trees and ruin the land. This content creator is making up a complete red herring about trees. When the story itself literally says cut down the trees and so that’s what they did.

[@joesmith4098]

The absolute arrogance of this guy, he thinks he is being cute, its not cute, who would want his arrogant wrong behind over for dinner?
Dan, you are invited to dinner anytime sir.

[@miriam-english]

Dan, thank you for your insightful videos. I'm a regular viewer and an atheist without tattoos, who has a Christian friend who does have tattoos. Can you tell me whether Leviticus 19:28 (or any other Biblical passage) forbids tattoos?

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Jews are commanded not to tattoo the skin in Leviticus 19:28. For Gentiles, tattoos are forbidden if one intends it for idolatry.

[@victortitimas6904]

Hi, could you please tell me what does qetsef mean? Thank you for posting this!:)

[@duncansonoryan]

Again, this guy gives very icky vibes. He comes off very patronizing about Dan. Just unpleasant.

[@nedsantos1415]

I don't know how Dan got his patient, but that apologist is not worth his time.
However, I'm glad Dan made these videos as his responses have been very informative and educational to me.

[@davidnoneyabiz1412]

The problem with most Christian’s is that they take every single word in the Bible literally. They don’t use any type of critical thinking, nor do they even try to reason out what they read. Instead they listen to their local pastor and take that pastors view as a whole truth, this is compounded by the persons religious denominations view on the Bible.

[@OldManBrodie]

I really don't understand why you even bother engaging with this particular creator. He clearly has no desire to engage you with intellectual honesty. As fun as it is to watch you dunk on him over and over, it seems like you are wasting your time with him.

[@matthewnitz8367]

It's rarely about getting through to the entrenched apologist. It's about demonstrating to the people that are actually open to persuasion just how much those apologists have to twist the text to defend their interpretation.

[@jojones4685]

I think he probably has fun making these videos. At least I hope so

[@pansepot1490]

Dan’s channel is about spreading Bible literacy from a scholarly pov. If the creator was making a theological point Dan wouldn’t care but if he insists that his interpretation is textually/linguistically correct Dan has to set him right.

[@natashalayman281]

Can you give your view on the nephalim in the bible please? Your view on what they were and if they still exist and your knowledge on the language? Also, do you think they mated with animals and if the did do you think that could possibly be where demigods are from??? Maybe a stupid question and im sorry if it is, ive just questioned that. Thank you

[@pansepot1490]

Did you search RUclips/google with appropriate keywords? Dan has hundreds of videos: very possible he’s already covered the topic.

[@natashalayman281]

@@pansepot1490 I will!!!! Thank you 😊

[@howlrichard1028]

He has already addressed that concept a few times. Search before asking, you'll save a lot of time.

[@mel3256]

Sometimes best not to waste your time with ignorant jerks...maybe only respond to accounts that have a large following? To try to spread accurate info as effectively as possible?

[@FriendlyPalBud]

"Tik Tok sweetheart and much-sought-after-dinner-guest" has to go in your bio now, right?

[@Zahaqiel]

I still kinda feel like his rhetorical goal is problematic to begin with. He's trying to argue that YHWH was never defeated by another deity... in a text where YHWH's war blessing has _been defeated by human technological achievements._ Like I can understand not wanting to acknowledge that the other deities in the Bible are treated as being real beings with real power... but it's not like it's better for his position it didn't.

[@theGentlemanCaller73]

This is all getting very tedious. He's not going to change his mind. Let it go. Agree to disagree.

[@tussk.]

If I just make things up, you said whatever I say you did. So I win.

[@BilingualHobo]

So why would "the Prophet was wrong" not have been an equally valid interpretation? Other than this narative not having been written that way it seems the rule was generally that Prophet can't be wrong and once they are they cease to be a Prophet. It's naratively weird that the result was "their God got angry" instead of "Prophet lied God was not with us". Or is this a narrative that predates the rules for Prophets so they wouldn't have had the human blame as a cop out.

[@KhalerJex]

this guy again?

[@matthewparsons9407]

It's insane how conceitful and condescending this apologist is

[@meggsbacon7008]

Ahhh the difference between a peer reviewed critical bible scholar and an apologist…

[@marcioguerr482]

Dan stems his content on academic research. It can be wrong & after time the scientific knowledge improves with more & more discoveries & new understandings about the past.
On the other way, his apologetic opponents stem theis beliefs in the inerrancy of the Bible, so no matter how the facts disprove or debunk their creeds, they're going to use all rhetorical tools to discredit evidences.
Even broken clocks show the time correctly twice a day.

[@nedsantos1415]

While I have yet to see apologists/scholars engaging with Dan in these kinds of debates, bozo apologists like the one in this video thinks he is equipped to do that. LOL LOL LOL....

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Again, the context of the battle is important. Israel and 10 other kings went against Salmanessar and while not completely defeated, had heavy losses, The assyrians get essentially northern Galilee. So moab nows sees Israel is weakened, Israel not strong enough goes to Judah for help. Israel is still not strong enough, and Moab defends itself. Israel is unable to rebuild what it lost to the Assyrians, and the Syrians will try to dominate Israel culturally for the next 120 years. Kemosh can be seen as defending its people. Yahweh could blame the lack of piety of the Samarians, but up to the Assyrians Isra'el was polytheistoc anyway, and they are following a god for whom they were named in the LBAC.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Rashi's explanation that Israel's iniquities were remembered, that they too worship pagan deities and are not worthy of miracles is perfectly consistent with Torah law. A Jew who serves false gods is considered like a gentile in all regards (Maimonides, Avodat Kochavim 2:5).

[@yourlostairpod9556]

I was worried beacouse i thought i might have blasphemed and i just wanted assurance. So i discussed with my friends what blasphemy is (Attributing the spirits work with the devil) and meanwhile i made a few examples of what would need to be said without realizing i was actually saying the blasphemy in that moment. I just wanted th to understand my fear and what i was alking about. ---Still basically saying the blasphemy. Do you think i did the sin? I obviously didnt mean what i said. I feel so helpless and i think i fell for the devils trap.
And in the bible stands:
"Whoever speaks against the holy spirit". I dont know if the context its spoken in is important but i spoke against it. I already repented but feel like its too late. Please help me❤️🙏

[@funkatron101]

What a silly and terrible burden to bear.

[@supk7793]

if you are worried you commited the sin, you didnt commit it. Also Dan isnt the best person to ask about this

[@yourlostairpod9556]

@@funkatron101 what do you mean with that?

[@yourlostairpod9556]

@@supk7793 Why?

[@jojones4685]

You'll be fine. If you didnt intend to blaspheme than how could you be held responsible. Surely a God who knows that hearts of all people woukd know your intent

[@michaelyoung6469]

I don't know how you engage with people that appear to be so obviously disingenuous.

[@BenM61]

Who cares

[@rainbowkrampus]

Bible god simps, for one.

[@howlrichard1028]

Dan cares.

[@lisaboban]

I gotta tell you, I'm bored with this.

[@jojones4685]

I'm not. this stuff s great!

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Let's see it : Dan????
So far you haven't presented anything that defeats YHWH's 3 Kings as only 1 king left the battle before the other 2 defeated Moab .
YHWH perverted the sinful Israelite king from any glory of the victory.
All you're jumping through hoops is quite hilarious as the beginning of ch. 3 sets up the sin of Jehoram and why YHWH allowed the Rath of Chomesh to cause Israel to leave before the victory of Judah and Edom.
Amazing you can't tell the Northern kingdom of Israel apart from the southern kingdom of Judah and Edom .
Obviously this story is told from Judah 's perspective of them getting the victory with Elisha 's blessing and Israel NOT getting anything due to their sinful condition!
YHWH STILL WINS ! You're redaction scholarship loses again!

[@JopJio]

Yhwh failed, it doesn't say anything about yhwh allowing something 🤣 HE failed; Chemosh won. They could not capture every city. He failed, made a false prophecy and a false promise= not almighty= not all knowing

[@JopJio]

2 king 3 18 This is an easy thing in the eyes of the Lord; he will also deliver *Moab into your hands.*
*19 You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town.* You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones.”