The way I have always rationalized open vs closed double ups (similar to rusty’s description) is from the perspective of the last turn you make before the straight line approa cb into the double up. Closed = a tighter angle (more turn) on that turn, open = a more open turn before straightening out for the double up
Not sure how I feel about that one but everyone has their own understanding. Just need to have it dialed in between driver and rider before goin for it!
Awesome video!! I love the technical explanation and the importance of driver skill. Definitely was on your side with the open/close angle talk 😂Looking forward to the next one!
Greg started Double Up Wakeboards in the 90’s in Truckee, CA which is 15 minutes from Tahoe. I lived up there during the time. There were no towers yet, only sky poles and everyone was trying to get mass air with the boats and tools that were on the market at the time. I can’t remember if we were even using ballast. Anyway, Nelson capitalized on the DU concept and was a great ambassador to the sport in NorCal. Like out of nowhere all the wakeboarders we’re giving the sign and doing 270 turns to merge two wakes. When you hit one right you got so much air you didn’t know what to do with yourself. Especially the first time….. Good enough description Shaun??
@@jeffbarraclough great backstory! And to add to it, in Greg capitalizing on the concept, he started Double Up Wakeboard company in the 90's and had some great designs and graphics. Thanks Jeff 👊🏼
I think the driven shape we call it is the tear drop. Or a circle with a 90 degree angle in it. So when rust says close it up it makes sense personally.
@@Shaun.Murray Shaun, you're of course right in pointing out that the more acute the inside angle is, the more it "closes," in the parlance of pretty much everyone in any field or context in life - as _long_ as we're working under the assumption that _that's_ the side/perspective to take in order to talk with specific respect to the operative "thing" itself we're discussing, whether it's the positive or negative, the solid thing or the air/space that begins where the thing itself ends (so "closing" the angle on my snowboard turns would have me leaning closer to the ground, at a more acute angle - in this case that's filled by the air, not by my body). So that's where I'd be coming from, too. But (and my brother's the wakeboarder, I'm the snowboarder) I think what's going on here, where the confusion lies, is this: THEY'RE actually wanting to speak about that whole angle with respect to their approach situation "opening up" when/as the acuteness of that angle gets more extreme... and the incoming waves hit them less obliquely, more gradually, at an angle that allows them _more_ time, to _more_ gradually approach, arrive at, and hit that (now-sharper) knife edge of a peak on the double-up... with more ease, precision, and _LENGTH_ (and peak shape? I'm ignorant here)... And SO, it's _as if_ the middle/the "corridor" has effectively "widened" - "opened" up - for the rider; the "walls" coming obliquely at them have now become more parallel to their own line of travel, and the lines of the boat's own waves, and they therefore think of this narrower-but- longer approach distance, because it's so manageably _gradual,_ as being a relatively "open" angle... the more they're riding _along_ rather than _into_ the brunt of the incoming waves. Tell your amigo to remember 'acute' the same way my crazy algebra teacher impressed it upon me, in her unforgettably wacky voice, poisoning my eye-rolling soul with: "It's a CUTE li'l thang!" (And now I've finally paid it forward... you'll find, in time, that you can't unhear that.)
always wondered what a quick shut down, then take off again of the boat meaning hit the skidz let all what weight induce a surge style wave... then get back on it do your turn back to loop back into it.. I try that when I wanna toss folks in a tube..
Sounds a little like a triple up. That's where you drive a kink and then come back into it while everything is gathering. They can be MASSIVE so ya gotta be careful with em
Question - do you want to hit your driving line at 90 or the wake at 90? you drew it as hitting the driving line at 90, but Rusty talks about hitting the wake at 90... make sense?
Great question. The boat paths on the white board drawing looked to be almost at a right angle but Rusty kept saying to “T up” with the wake. Kinda confusing.
Guys guys, the angle from the outside is measured, that way everyone's happy. One question I have @shaunmurry is, How to get big double ups without wrecking the boat? Unfortunately had some bad experience in this department. Was always trying to close out the approach so the boat rolls over the waves instead slams into them.
Genuinely curious, when you guys talk about line length. Does that include the handle? Bought a new line this year that said 70’ but then on the back shows the handle as an additional 5’.
I am about to mess this all up and add another layer to it... The white board shows what I would call the prop trail . The wake is angled compared to the prop trail. \|/ So personally, I would say a T'ed up double up the boat crosses the wake at 90 degrees unlike the white board that showed the boat crossing the prop trail at 90 degrees. If you cross the prop trail at 90 degrees it would put the roller angle in the obtuse category. Are we all saying the same thing??? Also I agree, if you open up a double up it brings it closer to 90 or beyond (not that you want to go beyond), if you close a dub the angle gets smaller. 🤙
Good points but we don't look for the boat's prop trail when lining it up. We're looking at the rollers. Usually just under 90 is the most manageable for the rider to get good pop. Did that help?
Slightly off topic but still to do with the rope. Have you ever used a safety release for the rope. I just recently had a scare and was wondering about your thoughts. Might be a good video topic for you.
There's something called a trick release for when trick skiers and show skiers attach themselves to the rope by either putting their foot into a special hold, or attach themselves to a belt to then do lifts with a second person. Someone has to manage it in the boat though.
@Shaun.Murray Have you ever had your hand go through the handle during a fall wakeboarding? That's kinda what I'm talking about. Wondering if there's any kind of safety rope release for that situation?
@@AndyBrown-b2x it's happened before but such a difficult thing to put parameters on. Not sure how to differentiate between when you want it to hold and when you want it to give. Bigger riders put so much more pressure on the line and just that difference makes it difficult to have a failsafe. Would be great if there was some way to break at the right time but I personally don't know how to do that
I think open vs close the way Rusty says it is more from the driver’s point of view because they have to turn a tighter circle, like closing up the circle by turning in tighter. But I also get from the rider’s point of view it sounds wrong because you are making a wider angle for the rider when the driver closes up the circle and makes the circle tighter by marking a tighter turn 😂. Just depends whose perspective you are speaking from I think.
I can appreciate that but I still think we should be considering it from the rider's perspective bc that's the point of the whole thing. But I do get what you're sayin JJ
@@Shaun.Murray true. I was thinking the same thing. I think riders perspective should probably rule over driver’s for the reason you stated. But it is the driver that controls it, so maybe that’s why they say it from the driver’s point of view, haha who knows?
Nerd alert; technically correct you want to cross the wake at 90° but you’re wake behind the boat isn’t a parallel to the boats it’s V. Technically your turn needs to be more like 105°-110° to cross at 90°. Like anything practice makes perfect. Triple ups next!
Lots of folks have brought this up and good points. When the boat is completing the circle and the driver is lining up the angle, they should be looking at the rollers to determine how to cross them, and usually just under 90 is where we default to. Def don't want to go obtuse
😂 Did my best bc I had to break it down to Rusty. When he grabbed his speed square I was like "Yes!" now we're getting somewhere. But, even though he agreed with me, we're not gonna change it now he says. 😞
Nerd alert; technically correct you want to cross the wake at 90° but you’re wake behind the boat isn’t a parallel to the boats it’s V. Technically your turn needs to be more like 105°-110° to cross at 90°. Like anything practice makes perfect. Triple ups next!
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
The way I have always rationalized open vs closed double ups (similar to rusty’s description) is from the perspective of the last turn you make before the straight line approa cb into the double up. Closed = a tighter angle (more turn) on that turn, open = a more open turn before straightening out for the double up
Not sure how I feel about that one but everyone has their own understanding. Just need to have it dialed in between driver and rider before goin for it!
I love videos with rusty! 👍
We always know we're gonna have a good time
Awesome! Can't wait to try this out on the lake this year.
Yes! 🤜🏼💥🤛🏼
I was just watching your detention video on how to double up last night! Thanks for the video!
Noice 👊🏼
Awesome video!! I love the technical explanation and the importance of driver skill. Definitely was on your side with the open/close angle talk 😂Looking forward to the next one!
Stay tuned! Next vid goes live Friday at 10EST. How to Hit A Double Up! Who’s gettin the first comment now?!
I have asked for this video for a while, Thank you
Thanks for waiting! 👊🏼
I actually learned about those angles today!
In school?
@@Shaun.Murray Yes, we learned how to identify them in a triangle.
Love watching dubs. I wish I could get more practice but we board in a river with limited room.
Does make it tough being in a tighter space
Hey! I asked for you to make this video and you did! Thank you!
I mean it when I say to drop questions, comments, and ideas, so thanks for bein part of the process!
Thanks for this one!
👊🏼
Don’t argue with GOAT
SM is GOAT, and polite.
😂
Two words - Greg Nelson. Great vid Shaun!!!
Nelson! Thanks! Jeff, explain to the folks who don’t know what Double Up means in connection to Greg Nelson
Greg started Double Up Wakeboards in the 90’s in Truckee, CA which is 15 minutes from Tahoe. I lived up there during the time. There were no towers yet, only sky poles and everyone was trying to get mass air with the boats and tools that were on the market at the time. I can’t remember if we were even using ballast. Anyway, Nelson capitalized on the DU concept and was a great ambassador to the sport in NorCal. Like out of nowhere all the wakeboarders we’re giving the sign and doing 270 turns to merge two wakes. When you hit one right you got so much air you didn’t know what to do with yourself. Especially the first time….. Good enough description Shaun??
@@jeffbarraclough great backstory! And to add to it, in Greg capitalizing on the concept, he started Double Up Wakeboard company in the 90's and had some great designs and graphics. Thanks Jeff 👊🏼
So good
I think the driven shape we call it is the tear drop. Or a circle with a 90 degree angle in it. So when rust says close it up it makes sense personally.
But which way?! 😂
@@Shaun.Murray
Shaun, you're of course right in pointing out that the more acute the inside angle is, the more it "closes," in the parlance of pretty much everyone in any field or context in life - as _long_ as we're working under the assumption that _that's_ the side/perspective to take in order to talk with specific respect to the operative "thing" itself we're discussing, whether it's the positive or negative, the solid thing or the air/space that begins where the thing itself ends (so "closing" the angle on my snowboard turns would have me leaning closer to the ground, at a more acute angle - in this case that's filled by the air, not by my body).
So that's where I'd be coming from, too.
But (and my brother's the wakeboarder, I'm the snowboarder) I think what's going on here, where the confusion lies, is this:
THEY'RE actually wanting to speak about that whole angle with respect to their approach situation "opening up" when/as the acuteness of that angle gets more extreme... and the incoming waves hit them less obliquely, more gradually, at an angle that allows them _more_ time, to _more_ gradually approach, arrive at, and hit that (now-sharper) knife edge of a peak on the double-up... with more ease, precision, and _LENGTH_ (and peak shape? I'm ignorant here)... And SO, it's _as if_ the middle/the "corridor" has effectively "widened" - "opened" up - for the rider; the "walls" coming obliquely at them have now become more parallel to their own line of travel, and the lines of the boat's own waves, and they therefore think of this narrower-but- longer approach distance, because it's so manageably _gradual,_ as being a relatively "open" angle... the more they're riding _along_ rather than _into_ the brunt of the incoming waves.
Tell your amigo to remember 'acute' the same way my crazy algebra teacher impressed it upon me, in her unforgettably wacky voice, poisoning my eye-rolling soul with: "It's a CUTE li'l thang!"
(And now I've finally paid it forward... you'll find, in time, that you can't unhear that.)
always wondered what a quick shut down, then take off again of the boat meaning hit the skidz let all what weight induce a surge style wave... then get back on it do your turn back to loop back into it.. I try that when I wanna toss folks in a tube..
Sounds a little like a triple up. That's where you drive a kink and then come back into it while everything is gathering. They can be MASSIVE so ya gotta be careful with em
Double ups are sooo last year....Murray, lets see the triple up driving video HEHE. Launch Rusty to the moon \^^/
Triple ups! Them can get scary! But fun👊🏽
great video, but how do you talk double ups with out your boy Travis? i would love to see a video with the 3 of y'all
Right?! Travis drove some of my biggest ones, and one of em won me a ride in a Blue Angels Jet!
Question - do you want to hit your driving line at 90 or the wake at 90? you drew it as hitting the driving line at 90, but Rusty talks about hitting the wake at 90... make sense?
Great question. The boat paths on the white board drawing looked to be almost at a right angle but Rusty kept saying to “T up” with the wake. Kinda confusing.
It's really about T'ing up the rollers and not the boat path. We usually aim for just under 90 which puts the rollers at a more manageable angle.
Its about the angle the roller meets the wake.
Zackly
Guys guys, the angle from the outside is measured, that way everyone's happy. One question I have @shaunmurry is, How to get big double ups without wrecking the boat? Unfortunately had some bad experience in this department. Was always trying to close out the approach so the boat rolls over the waves instead slams into them.
You can try to hit the outside bend w the boat but keep the rider's rollers where the wake is bigger. Kinda possible but a lil tricky
Genuinely curious, when you guys talk about line length. Does that include the handle? Bought a new line this year that said 70’ but then on the back shows the handle as an additional 5’.
We always refer to rope and handle together
I am about to mess this all up and add another layer to it... The white board shows what I would call the prop trail . The wake is angled compared to the prop trail. \|/ So personally, I would say a T'ed up double up the boat crosses the wake at 90 degrees unlike the white board that showed the boat crossing the prop trail at 90 degrees. If you cross the prop trail at 90 degrees it would put the roller angle in the obtuse category. Are we all saying the same thing??? Also I agree, if you open up a double up it brings it closer to 90 or beyond (not that you want to go beyond), if you close a dub the angle gets smaller. 🤙
Good points but we don't look for the boat's prop trail when lining it up. We're looking at the rollers. Usually just under 90 is the most manageable for the rider to get good pop. Did that help?
Slightly off topic but still to do with the rope. Have you ever used a safety release for the rope. I just recently had a scare and was wondering about your thoughts. Might be a good video topic for you.
There's something called a trick release for when trick skiers and show skiers attach themselves to the rope by either putting their foot into a special hold, or attach themselves to a belt to then do lifts with a second person. Someone has to manage it in the boat though.
@Shaun.Murray Have you ever had your hand go through the handle during a fall wakeboarding? That's kinda what I'm talking about. Wondering if there's any kind of safety rope release for that situation?
@@AndyBrown-b2x it's happened before but such a difficult thing to put parameters on. Not sure how to differentiate between when you want it to hold and when you want it to give. Bigger riders put so much more pressure on the line and just that difference makes it difficult to have a failsafe. Would be great if there was some way to break at the right time but I personally don't know how to do that
@Shaun.Murray Thanls for taking the time to answer my question, I really appreciate it. Much respect 🙏
I think open vs close the way Rusty says it is more from the driver’s point of view because they have to turn a tighter circle, like closing up the circle by turning in tighter. But I also get from the rider’s point of view it sounds wrong because you are making a wider angle for the rider when the driver closes up the circle and makes the circle tighter by marking a tighter turn 😂. Just depends whose perspective you are speaking from I think.
I can appreciate that but I still think we should be considering it from the rider's perspective bc that's the point of the whole thing. But I do get what you're sayin JJ
@@Shaun.Murray true. I was thinking the same thing. I think riders perspective should probably rule over driver’s for the reason you stated. But it is the driver that controls it, so maybe that’s why they say it from the driver’s point of view, haha who knows?
i see it as closing the loop the boat makes.
As in you agree with me?
No, not exactly, just saying I see how Rusty sees it also. Closing the loop vs closing the angle @@Shaun.Murray
In relation to this video… if you’re talking about the outside angle( obtuse ) you’re opening it up✌️
Not the outside angle rather the inside
Always had trouble with this one it always throws me off my balance. Therefore difficult to get speed and stamina
Hopefully it makes a lil more sense after this video and the one about hitting the double up that just came out.
Shame we can’t get the same strength board Rusty is rocking. 😢
His isn't stock? I'd have to ask
So hit the rollers at 90 degrees
Yes
Nerd alert; technically correct you want to cross the wake at 90° but you’re wake behind the boat isn’t a parallel to the boats it’s V. Technically your turn needs to be more like 105°-110° to cross at 90°.
Like anything practice makes perfect.
Triple ups next!
Lots of folks have brought this up and good points. When the boat is completing the circle and the driver is lining up the angle, they should be looking at the rollers to determine how to cross them, and usually just under 90 is where we default to. Def don't want to go obtuse
Sean you need to dumb it down for us feeble minded people. to much trig talking. You and Rusty have the bestest Chemistry.
😂 Did my best bc I had to break it down to Rusty. When he grabbed his speed square I was like "Yes!" now we're getting somewhere. But, even though he agreed with me, we're not gonna change it now he says. 😞
Nerd alert; technically correct you want to cross the wake at 90° but you’re wake behind the boat isn’t a parallel to the boats it’s V. Technically your turn needs to be more like 105°-110° to cross at 90°.
Like anything practice makes perfect.
Triple ups next!