The Lydian Chromatic Concept Ep. 3: Tonal Gravity
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- In the third episode of the Lydian Chromatic series on "Theory with Bob," @bobbyspellman discusses the foundational principle of the Lydian Chromatic Concept, tonal gravity, as well as its roots in the physics of sound and its various harmonic implications.
George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization: www.lydianchro...
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Been a long time since I drank from a firehose. Great job, young man! Keep up the good work!!!!
Ha! Thanks!
Much anticipated indeed. I looked this book up and the only copy I could find was listed at quite the price. You are providing a real service to the community. Much appreciated also. Cheers.
You can find a PDF on the internet. I did.
you can extend yourself as much as you want, i would watch a 10 hour video of this nonstop hahaha
Been obsessed with Barry Harris theory but I've recently been gravitating(once again) to Lydian because of this pattern. Nice to know it's been researched. Thanks for this.
Really enjoying this series. You're very gifted at elucidating what has been (for me, at least) quite a muddy topic. I'm beginning to get glimmers of the implications.
Keep up the terrific work.
Thanks Harry!
You are making great thing, Bob. IMO this knowledge is so overlooked in other parts of the World. Really happy to get such a substantial introduction into this great concept. Thanks and really wait for further lectures!
I am trying to learn, and this is the best explanation of these ideas I have come across. I feel I understand a little better now and know where to look from here. Thank you!
Been waiting for this! Thank you!
That's filled in a couple of holes I had after reading the book. Looking forward to practical applications (which I didn't understand from the book at all) and hopefully some insight into the strange scales. Cheers Bobby.
The strange scales are my favorite part, but I've gotta lay the groundwork to make 'em make sense. Strange scales begin in episode 5. Glad I could fill in some holes in the meantime!
Does the harmonic series truly support an octave divided by 12? Or is it an approximation? 🐬
I think the ladder of fifths supports a 12 note chromatic scale, but a lot of compromises have to be made to allow for an equal tempered system that can be played across many octaves. I feel like there always has to be a balance between the objective nature of sound and the subjective cultural conventions that influence the way we use that sound.
Hi Bob, Thx for this presentation of the Lydian Chromatic Concept. Each time I play & improvise on the C Lydian, I cannot prevent myself from sounding "flamenco" and resolving in B major (as if B Phrygian was stronger than C Lydian, or if the real tonic of C Lydian was actually B !
Cheers
The C is the b9 of the B flamenco sound. So it has a strrong pull to the B root. C lydian is the main scale point of tension in Flamenco and wants to resolve on to the B Phrygian Major (or Phrygian Dominant, a mode of the Harmonic minor) who's root chord is B major (B sus b9).The C Lydian #5 would be the natural tension but the C Lydian (borrowed from the has a natural 5th) is simpler in sound. In some flamenco pieces the C Lydian #5 is used to create a dream whole tone like sound that resolves onto the Phrygian root. I use it a lot and on this pieces here: ruclips.net/video/G-O-hIUcjC4/видео.htmlsi=XPa6EJ8MmeGz8qnQ sorry Bobby, I hijack this for a second.
@@pvillez Thank you Pere Villez for your explanation. I like your Tarantas very much indeed. My master in flamenco is Vicente Amigo. I am sure you appreciate him too.
Kind regards
I've only been playing for a little less than a year. So I'm completely lost. I only worry about my chops and just making beautiful songs. But I'm still here trying to understand. I surprised myself when I learned how to read music, and even more when I became pretty good. Starting at 39 years old is tough cuz of life. But I feel in love with the sound and progression of talent in my trumpet. Thank you for your teachings
It occurs to me that in Am (relative of C) it's that pesky F that is the unresolved "avoid" note. But if you tonicize it by making it an F#, thus shifting to conventional Dorian, you're in the key of G, which is, wait for it, C Lydian. Lydian for the win.
Exactly, the F works the same in A natural minor as it does in the C major scale. It's really a beautiful thing in the context of a whole lotta music because it creates the feeling of forward motion by creating the sound of that resolution (from F Lydian to C Lydian). However, if you're trying to hang out on any note of the scale, lydian and dorian give you that harmonic unity.
Thanks for doing this Bobby! I’m hooked
Thanks for checking it out, Dan!
Fascinating thank you for your teaching
One could argue that Russel’s concept is sort of arbitrary. I understand using the fifth as it is the strongest non-octave overtone, but one could hypothetically utilize the flat-7 as it is also in the natural overtone series. Which looks like this: 1. Octave. 2. Fifth above octave. 3. Second octave. 4. Major third above second octave. 5. Third octave. 6. Flat-seventh above third octave! Try it yourself. That harmonic sits about midway in the third fret (use a plain thin string to hear it best).
What I don't get is that if staking 5ths reinforces the tonal center.... then why stop at the #11? Stacking 5ths will give you a Lydian scale, yes, but why not add the b9 then the b6, #9, b7 and then finally the natural 4th?
If stacking 5ths reinforces the key, then why stop at Lydian?
I’m pretty sure because we already got 7 notes out of it, but if you think those upper extensions sound outside I don’t see why you wouldn’t use them! But also as a general rule b9 over a ^7 isn’t the greatest, but try for yourself!
Try those scale degrees over an altered chord!
It does continue up to include all 12 notes in the chromatic scale, which will also give you the modes of melodic minor, harmonic minor, whole tone, diminished, and so on. This is possibly my favorite part of the LCC. I'll cover this in detail in episode 5, but it definitely requires its own video, and I thought it would be best to stop at the first seven tones of lydian for now.
It was a long week expecting for this video. Awesome series. The idea of a more "natural" scale based of 5ths is very cool !
It seems that using the concept to analyse chord progressions based major/minor scale is ... Too much, idk. That maybe the concept is more 'useful' in contexts of jazz, and composing. Am I getting it right?
Thanks again for the series!
Cheers from Brazil
Thanks! I’ll be doing some more harmonic analysis in the next video that will hopefully shed some more light on how it might be useful.
Question;
Is there something interesting to be said about “symmetrical” structures like an Augmented triad where the notes are all equidistant from each other? Is each note theoretically equally tonicized since they all have identical overtone relationships? Does the tonal gravity have implications for why those symmetrical structures have so much tension and “dominant” qualities? Is a diminished 7 chord a tonal singularity? Should I be worried about creating a tonal black hole if I play too much wholtone stuff?
Great video, thanks! I have a question. How does the tempered system affect this theory? if it affects it.
I like the bit with the banjo illustrating harmonic series on a string, but I think the lowest string on a banjo (in G tuning) is D! Great job wading through some crazy complex theory. I've watched other videos, and your approach is by far the most approachable. Thanks and keep up the good work.
He's playing a tenor banjo :) Which is tuned GDAE, like a violin.
Thanks! It is indeed a tenor banjo tuned to G, D, A, E, but I’m glad you like the illustration of the harmonic series!
Tenor banjo is usually tuned C G D A but Irish tenor tenor tuning is usually G D A E. Makes it easier to play jigs and reels in the first position, like a fiddle.
@@stephencook4577 Bingo, I'm out here playing jigs and reels. ☘🤘
Woohoo! Study time.
9:54 that’s kinda failed to sound like a Plagal cadence but a I to V instead. For resolving this ambiguity, melody needs to be applied carefully to provide the specific context, for example, a melody starting from G and reaching C like GCDEC could give it a stronger plagal feeling in C than I V in F major. The methodology of detaching the harmony solely to study is dangerous and might mislead students to write something that’s perfectly matching the theory without caring about those tiny but important acoustic details.
I see your point, and melody is often the most important component in analysis and composition, but I'm assuming anybody who's diving into lydian chromatic videos already has some idea of what I mean by a plagal cadence in conventional theory. My point is just to establish the perspective to view it as F lydian to C lydian. The melody in this case is the top voice of each of the chords, and it's not unusual to have a melody that is one note per chord (especially in an "amen" cadence), but you're right that I could have made the IV-I cadence clearer by establishing C as the tonic before moving to F. Either way, nothing about this is dangerous, and I think a little reckless experimentation is likely to contribute to the increased understanding and ability of any student of composition or improvisation with virtually no resulting injury or loss of human life.
Do you plan to explain the concept of rhythmic gravity as well ? I hope you will because this part of the lydian chromatic concept is totally shrouded in mystery, I've tried to learn more about it but no luck so far. Hopefully you will touch on that to :)
subscribed!
If we're using the overtone series to generate the scale 'in unity with itself' why don't we use the flat 7 note instead of natural 7 because that is a stronger overtone?
The lydian Chromatic Concept does not use the overtone series to build scales (even though he mentions it in a footnote that the f# comes before the F in the harmonic series).
It uses the fundamental interval of a fifth which is the earliest 'interval' in the overtone series (after the unison and octave which expresses just the same note really) because as stated in this video that is the interval that bests reflects tonal gravity. The scale is then built up on perfect fifths stacked one on top of another so apart from that fundamental interval nothing really to do with the harmonic series. I think it's been pretty well explained up to now.
Thanks
Cool video man
It’s making me wonder how and why we evolved (in Western Europe) to base Ionian and not Lydian… lost to history, I suppose.
It’s a great question. European classical music actually started with modes and later shifted to the use of major and minor keys in (if I remember correctly) the beginning of the 1700’s. If you want to dive deep, there’s a great book by Joel Lester called Between Modes and Keys that covers this transition.
@@RidgewoodSchoolofMusic I must admit I got rather lost towards the end of this video but I do like the theory with bob series.
Maybe a future video could go back a step and look in more detail at modal music more generally and why it switched to harmonic?
@@philiphall8325 I find it easiest to think of modes as the major scale but starting at different notes, much like how the relative minor will start on the 6, the relative dorian will start on the 2. Look up the mode order, and start the major scale in those respective places! Don’t forget to take a look at melodic minor modes too eventually!
@@RidgewoodSchoolofMusic Thanks!
So much of it is what “the ear” is used to hearing… and what it demands of what comes next. I love the opening of Vincent Persichetti’s “Twentieth Century Harmony”: “Any tone can succeed any other tone, any tone can sound simultaneously with any other tone or tones, and any group of tones can be followed by any other group of tones…” unless you want to write a Top 40 Hit… 🥴
This is great. But i wish to point out that the overtone series goes further from the C in the treble clef to D, E, F# G, A, B, C. That F# is kind of interesting.After that C ( which on my tenor sax, i call C5 because it is the fifth C on my horn) the series will start over again. But i would say one should consult the Harvard Dictionary of Music to really know.
Gracias por divulgar una perspectiva tonal tan dejada de lado .trabajar desde el modo lidio colorea tu oído de distinta manera
Hello Boby, seeking your advice please. If you could purchase 1 of the following trumpets all for the same price and condition which would you choose please? I should also mention I have the opportunity to purchase one, however, "unplayed" due to being such a distance from them all. To be played at military funerals and special events (Australia) and for personal pleasure and then one day pass onto my children.
INTERNATIONAL TRUMPET Bb by KANSTUL
BACH STRADIVARIUS TRUMPET 37
Yamaha YTR-736 Trumpet
Yamaha YTR-6335 Trumpet
Hey! Sorry I missed this until now, but the short answer is I would choose the Bach Strad because it's the industry standard and it's probably the most popular horn amongst my colleagues here in New York. The long answer is you should try out each one and pick the one the feels and sounds best to you. Good luck!
A bit confusing, sure. But I wouldn't say I'm lost yet. This is interesting.
3:29 there is also a major 3rd above the root note.
How many times are you gonna say "Alright, gang"?
Where is ep.2?
ruclips.net/video/R5WHWGx7S7U/видео.html
Talk too much,why u gotta explain everything you do,u should hire an editor, I couldn't even watch, with all the redundancies and unnecessary added verbiage 👎 but I need to find out more about this LCC,I'll have to go find a better video,
There’s a book
@bobbyspellman You're doing great, don't change a thing.
@@scottdrake5159 bs,ur a fraud, you dont really think that ,the fact is that you have a hard time with real criticism, it hurt ur feelings, but what u should take away is honest REAL feedback, it could help you with future content,but ur type wud never admit this
Full 15 minutes of explanation to not demonstrating anything useful.
Years of study and dedication, and you are demanding explanation in a few minutes 🤔... This *is a video made by a musician, not by TV. It's RUclips, not TikTok. Just chill out, bros