Another side of promotions is that if it is into a managerial track you have much higher career risk. Technical roles are much more transplant-able, while middle manager roles are often much more company specific. I've had multiple former manager who "took one for the team" to fill a managerial role, only to be unemployable afterwards. A former director trying to get back into a technical role raises all sorts of red flags, even if it is in good faith and they really do not want to be a manager anymore.
The math is simple: Double the workload & stress for a 10% pay bump? No wonder 42% say no. Big respect for highlighting this isn't about laziness - it's about people finally doing the cost-benefit math 🎯
I left my old job because I was given a promotion I had rejected. I was offered a department head position since my predecessor was moving. I wasn't trained for the position, so I shadowed for the position for a month. While I was shadowing for the department head position, I quickly realized no effort was being made to fill my current role and I would be expected to fill both roles. I made sure to formally reject the promotion with the manager, assistant manager, and DISTRICT manager. I was told that they'd be hiring externally to fill the position, but a week before my predecessor left, I noticed the schedule had changed and was now listing me as the new head of the department. I was assured it was temporary, but after it became clear that they had no interest in hiring externally, replacing my previous role, or better staffing my new department, I provided my notice. The promotion didn't even come with a pay raise as I had apparently been getting paid better than my predecessor.
You are absolutely right. I'm an old git (71) and have seen the world of work deteriorate steadily over decades. Employers demand more for less every year. If anything, people, especially younger people, work harder nowadays than I did when I was their age. They certainly put in more hours. Before I retired, I refused a "promotion" for exactly the reasons stated - more hours/responsibility, little if any increase in pay. Essentially, they wanted to benefit from my experience and knowledge but not reward me for it. No thanks.
Walking down the street, I bumped into an old boss of mine. We had kept in contact over the years. The first thing he said was “Dennis left”. Dennis had worked for him for 6 years, in that time gone through every part of the business, run the business when the Boss went on holidays, designed improvements etc. Dennis had been married 12 months ago. The Boss gave him a large bonus when he got married. Dennis left for a job with less working hours, no weekend work, lower pay. The Boss complained saying he planned to retire and make Dennis the Manager in 2 years, now he couldn’t retire! I asked him if he had told Dennis of the plan, he said No, why would I do that?
ummmm, it makes sense. Do not promise anybody future Huge Success. First of all - he will not trust you, considering it is just a carrot for donkey. Second - if he does trust he may completely change his aims, development, quality and so on, "I am you future boss, so obey me now!". Very risky idea.
@@antontsau Hello antonsau, Life’s funny, after meeting my old boss and having the discussion about Dennis, I bumped into Dennis and his Wife at a BBQ for the local Football Club, my Wife and Dennis wife got chatting. It seems the motivation for the move to the new job was because the discussed it and saw no future at Dennis job, they figured take the pay cut, get the extra time and Dennis could (he did) do some part-time study to upgrade his qualifications. It actually turned out well for them, Dennis was promoted 4 months into his new job, they gave him an Assistant Manager job, 15% pay raise AND agreed he can take time off for study and they will pay for the study. They have a policy of internal promotion and fostering staff improvement.
I've left more than one company because they demanded I accept a promotion to a manager position with people managing. I'm an IT person. Honestly, I find managing myself is a full time job. I have neither the time nor interest in managing anyone else. I am a computer geek. I enjoy it. I don't really like people. Why would you want me to manage others? Have I? Yes. Did my staff love it? Mostly. Did the rest of management like it? Not especially. Did I enjoy it? Not even a little.
Yeah, I'm I.T support, have an opportunity to be a sys admin at a different workplace, but never applied for it because I don't want to be responsible for the guaranteed data leaks their systems have. All systems are not a matter of if but when they will be hacked. Don't want to deal with it. (The small pay increase, isnt worth trying to deal with all the headaches of a 30 year old domain that nobody has properly fixed up. Also get taxxed more :(....)
@StormHawksHD - I did the sys admin thing on a "training" OS390 a decade or three ago. When they decided to repurpose it to use for clients, I decided sys admin wasn't my happy place. You made a wise decision to not apply.
Seems to be how IT jobs work - what ever you like they want you to do the opposite I'm in IT but I love working with people, I love the customer/user facing part of the job, face to face, over the phone what ever doing deap dive trouble shooting/solving for a customer or group of clients is what gets me through the day ...but obviously work keeps wanting to push me towards system admin type jobs, hate them, done them, several times (even have the certs to show I know my sh*t) but hated every damn minute in the dark back office space that system admin teams always seem to get shoved.
I turned down a big promotion when working for a major bank. The pay was nice but I was told point blank Id be working 70 hpur weeks, which pretty much erased the raise. My oldest was just about to enter kindergarten and I didn't want to be an absent parent, so I declined... And was demoted from my management position for not being a team player. They fired me after the replacement manager was up to speed They've since asked me to come back a couple of times but I won't even bank with them, nevermind working there again.
I worked for a large investments bank for about 6 weeks. I interview. I was 9-5 I got there. I went to the "induction" about week 3 on the job. I was told that the "professional work day was "8-6" and was expected to do at home call handling in the middle of the night as well. I left by week 6. When i handed in my notice my boss was really pissed because it took 2 months to get me there with interviews and me working notice etc.. elsewhere. It wasted about 4-5 months of her time. I just said. "If you were honest in the interview, this would not have occurred."
@@slider799 Ha I went to an interview where the 2IC told the boss in the middle he was having dinner in the city and would come back in at midnight to finish something. Most honest interview ever - hope they went well!
I left my old job of 18 years after seeing the Peter Principle play out too many times. When interviewing for my new job I made it clear that I wasn't looking to climb the ladder, I just wanted to do the job (engineer) as it seemed the higher up the ladder you were, the further away from the fun work you got. Both of the guys interviewing me (both engineers and now engineering managers) agreed wholeheartedly "you're not bloody wrong!" I couldn't be happier at the new place but let's see how I feel in 17 years time!
Wish I could find an interview panel like this, not only do you ALWAYS have someone from HR but it's usually the manager or manager of the manager of the position your applying for and the same level manager from a seperate team, quite obviously career oriented people, trying to sell you on the career path within the organisation, never anyone who's doing that job or who has done that job in the last 10 years (and in this job skills and knowledge rolls over every 4 to 6 years) meanwhile I'm saying "no just put me where I can deal face to face or over the phone with the clients to solve their problems and I'm set for life, not interested in managing technicians, I don't want to be a locked in a dark office infrastructure technician I just want to be a customer focused technician, I like it, I'm damn good at it and I can walk away at the end of the day knowing I've done my best" somehow that just seems to come across as "deadbeat" or what ever
@@TheRealMarxz Over the last 28 years, I've had 3 interviews for 3 different firms/jobs and they were all my (future) direct boss and another engineer in the department and I got all three. All I can say is that I must have been very very lucky.
That is why I am an engineering contractor now. Max pay and I only do the fun stuff. If they give me something mundane, I ask them whether that is a good use of what they pay me.
I got a ”promotion” on my last workplace. There was no pay increase, no new benefits, I didn’t get to manage the personnel but I was ”responsible” for their work and it came with a stupid title that is no real use on my CV since it was basically made up. And after that my CEO started to book meetings with me every week to talk about ”my groups” performance. I tried to tell him that if I was going to be responsible for them I need to be able to at least be part of the management of them, I said I need to be part of the choices of who we would employ and that I wanted to be able to give a raise or benefits to the personnel that did a really good job. He said no, all I needed to do was make sure everyone performed at 110% and bla bla bla. I asked why this new responsibility didn’t come with some sort of pay increase, but he just said that if things went well, I could get a little extra at the next years salary negotiations. I quickly started to look for another job.
Good on you, I got promoted to an assistant store manager position. Got the title, "pay increase", and the fancy shirt. One evening our team really messed up, I was instructed by the store manager to write everyone up only to be written up myself by the director of operations 3 days later for "over stepping my bounds". Apparently, I was a manager in everything but the employees. I've since found myself being offered several leadership roles where I don't actually have any power over the employees I'm supposed to be responsible for. I've learned to turn down those opportunities.
@@PawsOnTheBalcony Lol, no. I’m from Sweden, so it’s a bit hard to translate to English, but it was something like Group leader. The proper title should have been something more like operative team manager. Another fun fact about that job was that I cost the company about 70K kr each month with salary, employer fees and taxes, and I brought in around 165K kr every month. That was in 2nd line IT support, I know most of the salespeople made lower percentages than that.
Promotions are the WORST! I was promoted to a senior position, at my last job, and it was the worst thing that could have happened. I went from having a solid team of 15 personnel, who all performed well, to a 140 person underperforming dumpster fire, in a completely different area. I was working 60 hours a week, on site, and on the phone all night, almost every night of the week, as we were a 24/7 operation. I later found out that my supervisors were on 8 K p.a less than me.
Two jobs back: 1. I got a promotion without a pay rise. I was like "WTF? OK then." Got a backdated pay rise when they found out I had started jobhunting. 2. Told my immediate superior that I wasn't interested in further promotion. "Because look at the state you're in. No thanks." Last job: 1. At my job interview they asked me where I see myself in 5 years or whatever - I said doing the same thing because I enjoy this particular niche. I still need to keep up to date with current technical developments so it's not a stagnant position. I just didn't want extra responsibilities. 2. Despite this, was constantly harried to "push myself and do more" despite already being stressed and overworked. Made it clear (in case I wasn't clear before) that I'm not interested in promotion. I was happy with my position, my salary and didn't "want more". I'm Gen X (almost 50).
Been in IT for 10 years and I honestly don't want middle management. Team Lead is fine. I don't see what's wrong with enjoying what you do every day, sometimes having a one off challenge and again to learn or grow.
I absolutely HATE being responsible for someone else's competence and work ethic. 25% more pay isn't worth 300% more misery. It might be different if I was struggling financially, but I'm just not desperate enough for money to commit self harm... which is what being a 'boss' would be for me.
My son has been applying to so many jobs but because he doesn't have any experience places haven't been calling him back. I know this video is focused on promotions, but the statement no one wants to work really grinds my gears. My son wants to work but can't even get an interview. It's unreal.
I was offered a promotion...basically taking over my boss' position when she retired. She herself offered it to me. But I saw her job...70 hours a week average. She was constantly expected to bring work home to work on. Plus the job was salaried. I didn't know her exact salary but had a pretty good idea. So I figured out the number of hours I knew she did and what her estimated salary turned out to be per hour...in the end I would have taken a pay cut. I politely told her that I valued my down time too much for so little pay. At first she was confused so I explained it all to her and ended with the company obviously did not value her time after 20 years, they were definitely not going to value my time. As I said, she was retiring so she didn't really have an issue with me being that truthful with her. She nodded and said she kind of felt that would be my response.
I kept getting promoted because I was good at my job. I refused once and there was almost a 'threat' that if I didnt take it then there would be problem. I hated it. In the end I had a breakdown because the people I was working for planned... yes planned to get rid of me. It took me years to recover but now I have a job with an amazing boss. They dont know my background and I am happy with that and my job.. I still work hard but I am out of that vipers den.
Another really big one is that very few people coming into the workplace are getting adequate training for the jobs they are in. A lot of people complain about their “entitlement” and fake it til you make it approach to work, but they have no choice. They are being pushed into jobs they aren’t equipped to do. Zero chance I’d take on responsibility for staff who can’t perform. You end up doing their jobs for them, on top of managing them. Nightmare scenario.
I turned down a promotion because of the tax thresholds. Between Student Loan and the loss of Child Benefit (I have 3 children) I worked out I would effectively pay almost 70% tax rate on the new money. So even though the promotion came with a salary increase, I would see very little, but the impact the new job would have on my costs for more home help and child care due to extra responsibilities would have meant I'd see very little actual increase in money in my bank account at the end of the month. Instead I spend time with my kids.
Gotta say this. I started a business from scratch. After 10 years I employed 35 people. I did a 10 year review, I was working minimum 60 hours a week, often more. My “Take Home” pay, after making all the responsible decisions was about 50% more than I made in the 1st year I started the business. I then asked my employees if any of them or any group of them wanted to buy the business. After a month, 4 of the employees made an Offer, we negotiated, finally a price was agreed and I sold out and walked away. I then took 4 months off, moved a long way for a lifestyle move and started a new business, firmly determined to only EVER employ 1 person, she was my P.A. From the old business. In 6 months I was making a “Take Home” of 70% of the income the year before, my P.A. Was making 110% of her previous pay. I was working 35 hours a week.
My mom had her own business doing taxes during tax season and accounting for a few local businesses. She knew she never wanted to grow large enough to hire someone, so she kept raising her rates until her new clients and lost clients evened out each year. She retired happy.
@ Hello again, your Mum is a very cany woman, in my second business I did exactly the same thing AND limited the number of clients I had. I also, for fun, did Pro Bono work on informal reference from trusted friends and acquaintances. The Pro Bono work took me to some strange places and I met strange people and was forced to consider many different views ad cultures, it kept life interesting. My PA hated the Pro Bono work, whinged whenever I did it, but her best friend is an ex Pro Bono client!
I turned down a workload because the management lost some other managers and they needed me to 'Temporarily' help till recruitment came though. 3 months later.. Still got the workload. I laid a complaint with HR, went through discussions and the respective managers were torn a new one because they tried to say I was not doing my tasks... which was the extra work they asked me to help out with over and above my contract. I ended up leaving mid last year because I lost the will to even do my own work.
The problem with promotions is that there is an increase in statutory liability, having to deal with government departments, dealing with the internal politics of your team, dealing with company politics and getting chewed out by senior management for failing to meet impossible goals. In return you get a small pay rise, half of which is taken by tax and the pleasure of starting earlier and finishing later. In effect the real hourly rate goes down. I had a manager offer me a promotion which included a small pay rise, I rejected it on the spot. He said I would get a prestigious title. I told him my bank accepts cash, not prestige.
if you're in a high enough tax bracket to lose half your pay to taxes then you're doing very well for yourself. I think a lot of people don't understand how tax brackets work, you don't lose half your money, you lose 45% of OVER £125k. The money before £125k is not taxed at that rate.
@AB-sem There is genuinely wilful ignorance on hiw Taxes work. However... "benifits" and "credits" that's a challenge to get your head around. And it's often the people with the least money, time, attention and support are affected.
I was offered a promotion to "manager" at my last job but the problem is it was only a $1 an hour increase and I would have had to have literally been on call from 6 AM till midnight! I told them I wasn't interested and they seemed shocked.
It was a similar sort of a thing at my previous job. They kept offering me promotions, but you get a very small bump in salary, no increase in ability to enforce whatever managerial decisions you get to make, and you get yelled at if everything isn't the way they want it to be. I got stuck managing the department for 4 months without any pay, I found out at that point, that they weren't going to give me the manager bonus, a portion would be going to the new manager when they eventually decided to hire one, and he'd be getting a bit of bonus based entirely on the work that I had done. I stuck around for a few weeks, but the whole thing just reinforced the reasons I had for not wanting to be a manager there. I could do the managerial tasks quite well, but I had absolutely no faith that after having been promised by corporate that I'd be taken care of, that taken care of meant being present when they gave somebody my bonus and completely left out of any pay for the work I had done, while they took their sweet time looking for somebody to fill any of the open positions in the department. I think, there were supposed to be 3 or 4 total, and we had 2, which meant the only way to cover all the shifts would have been for us to both work 7 days a week.
I got promoted and they wanted to give me a .50 raise I already work a shitty job with shitty pay no thanks. So eventually i got them to cave to $2 raise and even then im still looking for a new job and they don’t know it yet
I recently left an IT job after 25 years (declined to relocate). In our company, there were three different promotion tracks: programmers/analysts/architects, product owners/project management, and admin/people management. I started out in the first track and rose up to near the top of it after about 10 years. Then I had a choice to make on whether I wanted to stay where I was and eventually hit a ceiling or make a lateral move and keep climbing. I decided to switch to people management but only lasted about a year. It sucked. Too many hours and headaches dealing with poor performers. Thankfully I was able to make another lateral move to project management where I stayed for the remainder of my time there. I was able to impact the business more as a subject matter expert and project leader without the headaches of being directly responsible for the people I worked with.
I'm in my 60's and have never accepted a promotion. I am very well paid as a Technical Consultant to Businesses and Government Departments implementing complex IT systems. I enjoy my technical work and frankly find managing people and the associated paperwork life shatteringly boring. On the other hand, I tell the organisations that I work for that I want written responsibility and accountability for the implementation projects that I undertake. This is primarily so that I can manage the often stupid expectations of the executive management team.
I've experienced this personally and find it common in STEM fields. It's also one of the easiest ways to destroy a good department by promoting one of the productive employees. They don't want to stop doing the line work and neglect organizational duties for the work they enjoy.
It's all the peripheral stuff that puts me off. I just want to do my job. I don't want all the extra meetings and requirements to conduct countless 121s, PDRs, etc, that come with promotions at my workplace. There's no such thing as a promotion to a senior role in my [niche] position based on knowledge and experience - just vacancies with people management, which really isn't my bag... I would be a terrible manager because I just don't have the patience with people.
Seeing it in the US military as well. Lots of folks don’t want the beat down that comes with having a command for example, and as a result of going down the list of candidates for command, they’re getting less qualified people being put in charge. Which leads to other problems.
- Any time a company I've been in has gone through redundancies, middle management are the first to be cut. If I'm on the floor, I'm more valuable. - I don't want to be middle management whose delegating work that I could do, to someone else (because if I can do it and have the time, why wouldn't I do it? Why do I need to give it to someone else just because I'm a "manager"?) - I want to feel like I'm making a difference in the company, and being on the floor and seeing the changes upfront/customer facing gives a more immediate job satisfaction than waiting on stats at the end of the quarter to know if I've done good or not. - My current position allows me to be able to say "no, because..." or "this won't get done on time unless you sacrifice something". Middle management aren't able to say the same as easily, there is an expectation that you "just make it work". I don't want that stress, I'd want to be certain that scheduling based on resource is abided by and not questioned or challenged. - Work/life balance is important, once the perfect balance is reached, why would we sacrifice it for extra money that doesn't really make it worth while? Respectfully, A Millenial
Absolutely, my company's head office is in the Far East and we had an IT Director sent over to the UK. I was a development team manager at the time and there were other team managers within IT. Some months after the IT Director arrived, she called is in and said she was changing the department to matrix management and our job titles would change but salaries would stay the same and we would do the same work. A month later Head Office announced redundancies would be made, and none of ex-managers were even on the list of possible redundancies. After the dust settled, the IT Director told us that she knew the redundancies were coming and that it was policy to cull middle management first, so she saved us by changing the department structure and our job titles because we actually did useful work. I still work for that company 30 years later and I have always insisted on never being a "manager" My value to the company doing the useful work that I enjoy (rather than piddling around with admin and meetings) means that I can still command a high level salary as a technical expert. I first entered full time work in the 1980s, and back then it was all "push-push-push climb the corporate ladder", but I've realised that it was all a lie. Do what you enjoy doing because you're going to be doing it for a long long time before you can retire
Your experience with middle managers getting laid off before individual contributors is not common. Until a few years ago, only 20% of layoffs targeted managers. In recent years, there has been a huge uptick, but the number was still 31.5% in 2023. So even after this large shift, you're still twice as likely to get laid off if you're not a manager.
I've been working since 1996, one thing I've noticed is that today workplace is that even though we have more technology (aka computers) the communication levels are dropping. Less things are being passed on and the more things are a panic "need it yesterday". This Leeds to why I would never take a promotion, because I often see my supervisor begging people to stay late or work a weekend and if they cant find anyone they are expected to do it themselves.
It depends on the promotion, at my last employer I was promoted twice within 12 months. I was thrown up the ladder too quickly and really struggled. I went from a basic analyst role to a senior role, to a manager. I hated my job and the stress was too much. I loved the pay but it was all too much too quickly. I got on well with my staff but the head of dept was always demanding more regardless of how well my team performed. I left after 5 years (management for 18 months) because the stress and the emotional drag just got too much. I took a pay cut to leave and moved back into the role I worked before the promotions started. I've now been promoted again twice since but have taken the technical route. I no longer manage people, I manage computer infrastructure. I have specialised into a more niche IT role and earn considerably more than I did in management. It was the best career move I ever made.
IMHO, companies that are properly run, don't have issues with getting people to take promotions. If you've got a bunch of people refusing promotions, especially, the good folks that have other options but don't necessarily want to put up with the hassles associated with changing jobs.
Took a promotion from a hourly position to a salaried one a few years ago. Found out that being salaried came with a unspoken and undocumented requirement for a min of 5 hours of OT every week or else you 'were not considered to be working a full schedule and therefore were underutilized'. My hourly position had required no OT. Salaried does not pay more for doing OT- so it was 10 hours of unpaid extra work per pay period. It was over two years before I was actually making more $ for my time than I had been in my hourly position. It paid off in the long run- in five years I doubled my take home pay- but it was significantly more work, more stress, and a ton more hours for very little gain in the short term.
I found it frustrating, to get a better wage you always have to strive to get promotions into management till the pressure gets to the point where they lose a good person who just wanted a real wage and perhaps a rise in pay.,
Being a good worker = inc workload, inc responsibilities, inc stress, less free time, less freedom, tiny tiny tiny bit of extra pay….. nah I’m grand cheers
Sometimes not even extra pay. You have to hope the right people saw it to get that. If it's just everyone else you'll only get a thank you for doing it and screeching if you pull back.
This is why CEOs shouldn't be paid millions of dollars It disincentivizes anyone actually doing more work if nobody is actually going to get paid for working harder
Exactly this. They keep cutting people or not filling positions as people leave. So now you get promoted to 2-3x the work with a dismal pay increase, and maybe an extra day or two of vacation? Nah.
At least for Gen-X, you forgot one *big* issue with promotions: We don't like to go to the next step in the Peter Principle. You know, somebody who is really great and efficient in laying bricks (to keep things simple) might not be the best one to suddenly do management functions, like telling others what they have to do next. Somebody who is an exceptional programmer can be the most shittiest project planner you've ever encountered, *simply because this is not their area of expertise!* We like to do the jobs we are good at, and you simply cannot compensate this by paying a higher salary for the "better" position... Don't get me wrong, there are for sure some people who may be good (or even great) in both areas, but the *next* promotion will need them to have even more management skills - which they probably don't have. As such, more money is not even a thing to think about when it comes to getting a promotion, and exactly the reason why most Gen-X I know prefer a "horizontal career" (which, sadly, most of those managers simply don't get or understand).
Truth is upper management has screwed around employees since the 80’s. Now people have hit the screw around & find out point for management. The fear of being threatened with job loss isn’t what it used to be.
Yep, that's why I generally refuse promotions. It's not that I can't do the managing, it's that the idiots above me make it incredibly miserable to do so.
Boss spent year complaining how awful and frustrating his management chain was (often to blame-shift criticism he should have owned), and then was surprised when all of his direct zero desire to become a manager when he was moved up to a director. So he promoted me into the next technical rung, only to then use my new title as an excuse to slowly pass off a lot of managerial tasks (running meetings, writing half his reviews for him, etc) under the guise of "technical leadership". He was strangely surprised when I quit...
Another thing not really addressed here- the glass cliff. Where I work a number of newly promoted Leads and Managers are not given enough direction or support to actual do their jobs. If the job is project based, this can be due to internal company politics where someone in another group is trying to divert resources or stop a project that they don't agree with. Sooo what happens is that they promote up an Engineer- someone young and inexperienced enough to not understand the corporate pitfalls- then they overwhelm that person with new and poorly explained responsibilities, burn them out, blame the team's poor performance on that person, and then fire them. The lead or manager was set up to fail right from the beginning.
The problem with many promotions is that it is more responsibility without more authority. When things go good, you don’t get any credit. When things go bad, you get the blame even though you had no say in the process.
That's pretty much in every job. I work in IT, you can work your bottom off, and for the mangers you just the IT guy; and they blame you for everything, even if their home router goes down.
That was one of the issues I had at the previous job I had. You get a tiny amount of extra money, no power to make anything happen, and a bunch of people above you on your ass because of things not being done, but there's no resources or power given to the manager to make it happen.
Any promotion in my job would have meant being a supervisor, a task at which I have sucked every time I’ve tried it. Also, I do like not having to worry about work when I’m not there. There are bigger things I could be doing at work but the boss doesn’t seem to value what I could bring to the business in those tasks. I’m a baker and would love some dedicate time to develop recipes and products, but now just have to try to fit it into my regular production schedule. And my boss is really frustrated by the number of people who don’t want to become supervisors because of the dynamics of the kitchen.
I've been at my current job for five years, it's at a university and they worm on a geading shstem for staff. There are two guys there who've been there longer than me who I've surpassed grade wise, but I'm bringing a barely noteworthy amount in more than them. They're two of the laziest people I've ever worked with, but they've got it completely worked out and there's 0 insentive for them to actually work hard. Such a broken system in a lot of workplaces.
Would I turn down a promotion? Absolutely. I’d rather not deal with all the stress of delegating work, dealing with the higher ups, or all that extra work for so little gain. Not worth the headache imho.
Promotion is unpaid extra work most times, I'm 55yrs old earning $44,000 weekly and I'm retired, this video have inspired me greatly in many ways that I remember my past of how I struggled with many things in life to be where I'm today.
I’ve turned down a couple of promotions. I was asked if I would move to Vegas for the same pay and more responsibility. Then I was asked to move to SLC to work in a toxic environment because I was good at dealing with toxic people. Really sold that one to me. I did take a position that was already near my home and which offered me interesting work to do. I’m happy now without a leadership position and being able to work from home now.
I had to fight for 2 years for my last promotion. The days of doing a good job, your manager recognising it and surprising you with a promotion, is long gone. I don’t even know what the point of role descriptions are, because you’re in role 1, you do the work of role 1 and role 2 according to the descriptions, but you’re still not entitled to a promotion. The quickest way is to change companies. If you don’t want to leave, then get a job offer somewhere else and threaten them with that.
This. When I still had a salaried job, my unit's leader was making as much as I was. However, he had to train us, represent us in front of the bosses, approve our vacation days, plan our schedule... I honestly wouldn't agree to do all this without at least a 70% increase.
My smallest raise with promotion was 15% and biggest was 30%. BUT, you have to fight for everything. Explain that you’re not happy and why. If they say something along the lines of, we need to discuss with so and so, BS they already know how high they can go. If all else fails threaten to leave. If they’re not willing to budge a bit to keep you, then you don’t want to be working there anyway.
If a promotion doubles your workload, you were either slacking off before, or you're now working 6am - 7pm 6 days a week. Most promotions don't include any additional work, and many may add 5-10% more work. They usually add new work, but other work then gets deprioritized or delegated away. I work about 5-10 hours a week more than when I was a junior individual contributor, and that increase occurred over 5 promotions and 15 years. That 20% increase in work came with a 400% increase in pay after inflation.
I'm a mid-level Software Developer and the idea of me applying for a promotion to Senior keeps being floated and I'm just not sure I can handle the increased expectations. The funny thing is, is that multiple managers I've had in the last 2 years have pegged me as being the right kind of person to be an Engineering Manager and think it's such a shame I really don't want to ever be a manager or even see myself growing past a Senior dev role. Honestly, I just don't trust my abiliies to manage people and I prefer to write code and solve problems I can see rather than trying to bulldoze roadblocks I see our managers handling. Also these are some of the best managers I've ever had, though I haven't really had any bad ones.
My dad and I had a conversation about moving up the "ladder." It turned out to be one of my last discussions with him ever. We spoke about the amount and the level responsibilities that were inherent to the position and one red flag that was raised was the lack of job security. He once quoted by saying "The grass is not always greener." I took that to heart because of the examples I learned from previous managers making huge mistakes (even a shift manager violating behavioral policy). Upper management knows that I have potential but working 13 hours a day, the responsibilities like paper work, and questioning the level of dedication needed. I couldn't do that for too long.
6 and a half minutes deep and both callers said" i wouldn't accept the promotion because xyz" Instead of " i didnt accept the promotion" I turned down one twice at my job. There was a decent pay increase but middle management is treated like shit and i want no part of that. I get treated badly enough at the bottom (me and the rest of the ants)
Fair play to that company who got rid of a guy working for them for 13 years without paying a penny of redundancy or constructive dismissal payment because they 100% wanted rid of him and he left voluntarily putting them in the clear.
A typical promotion works about like this: You make $60K a year paid as an hourly worker. You work a standard 40 hour week. Rare if ever you'll work OT. You get a "promotion" and now you're making $75K a year paid as a salaried worker. You routinely get expected to work a minimum 55-60 hour weeks. So, you do the math. Hourly worker = $60K a year (roughly $28.85/hr.). Salaried worker = $75K a year ($26.50/hr. low end 55 hours to $24.04/hr. high end 60 hours). So your "promotion" was a marked DOWNGRADE. Big time. And since you're now salaried, you don't qualify for OT. Your pay is based on a 26 week pay schedule so you'll always make the same amount every pay day (assuming a bi-weekly pay schedule). Is it any real wonder why so few want to get "promoted" these days? I'd only ever accept a promotion if: A) I am still paid as an hourly employee, or B) I am capped at 40 hours a week and no OT ever if salaried. Otherwise, a "promotion" is a pay loss. A HUGE pay loss.
I was a HGV driver at a large firm for 15 years, and regularly turned down promotions. During any downtime, I'd help out in other parts of the business. Eg. Engineering, warehouse, office, etc. I know this sounds weird, but I really enjoyed going full steam. I'd regularly sit with managers to offer pointers where they could save money without compromising on efficiency or morale. The reason I turned everything down is that all the regional managers refused to stop interfering in their subordinates work. (I believe that's called "micro managing"). In the end, I had to leave the company as hardly amy of the office staff in the haulage department had any knowledge in the industry, and doing their job became part of mine.
Harder to manage up than down. I am an engineer what I work on obeys the laws of physics....upper management definitely don't. Repeating a question is not guaranteed to get the same answer.
I work in a unionised environment of science and engineering professionals in Canada. My cow-orker just turned down a promotion to management because the pay raise was not worth it. Our unionised workers get better benefits and protections and the managers get abused to the whims of foreign leadership. It is becoming a real problem because the only people willing to do management are those people without specialist education or even management experience.
I worked for a company for nearly 20 years, there was only two people in my department, my direct boss and me. The job is highly skilled and would take years of training to be proficient, I dealt with one side of the role and my boss the other. My boss retires and my employer ask me to take over my bosses responsibilities, and be solely in-charge of the department. They offered me £4K to do so, I refused they then went quiet on the subject for about 1-2 months came back and offered me £5k I refused again, they then threatened me with my job and when I stuck to my guns they then told me I wasn’t worth what I was asking! And it wasn’t a fortune I was asking for but considering I was taking over the department singlehanded what was two full time jobs and my boss was paid well (talking £60k+ and bonus/ benefits ,not sure the exact number) which I did not get!
So I got a promotion and then asked for a demotion. The promotion gave me another $28/day. The job went from being a tech to an engineer. The workload became 4-8x more. I didn't have time to use the restroom or eat. I was told to do 3+ tasks all the time. My instructors never talked to me, much less taught me. The management I met was abusive and insane. I missed a task, and another engineer was pissed. He asked why I missed it; I told him 'no one told me about this, I didn't know;' he said that was no excuse. Also, I was on call, and exempt so lots of unpaid overtime. Not worth it! This was dumb. I didn't even say everything.
I took a 'promotion' into a new role that promised this that and the other, after a few months it was clear I'd made a wrong move and although I learned a few things, I knew I was better off as a tasker and IT do it all and definitely not a manager. Now I'm finding it hard to get re-hired as I was before because you can see their faces in interviews that when I tell them it wasn't for me, they see someone they can't 'promote' and joining a broken job markets making it all the harder too.
I had a temp job. The direct boss was awful, but I needed a job. I gave them a lot, I brought experience their team did not have. Eventually, they offered me a permanent position, but at the exact same rate I was being paid as a temp. I pushed back, because I knew they were paying $X more per hour to the agency. I said, "Not even a token 25 cents an hour increase as a token of good faith/welcome?" The boss and their boss refused to discuss it any further. I didn't take it, and they were shocked. Honestly glad I left, that team was a mess.
I've been given the dry promotion bait previously. I know what my company is up to and they now know they can't do this to me again. Didn't want to come back here after contracting for a year elsewhere, but that dried up.
I was promoted without a choice. 20 years in IT and I got a call saying that they’re moving me to manage a product. Had no idea what I was doing. I figured it out but yeah, it’s a mental choice for management to make.
I worked for a company for 18 years. In that 18 years I got several, so called, promotions. But really all they were was job title name changes. 5 different job titles. Did anything change, yeah more work. This would come about after yearly pay raise IF they gave one. Called it your pay increase for the new promotion, yeah name title change to do more work. Which was the same rate of change they would give IF you got a yearly pay increase. Which all came about there so called performance review when you get a score between 1 to 5. This was the percentage you get. Oh yeah the highest you could get was 3. I had a boss that would not bide by the company policy and would give 4 or 4.5, which I had several times. But as much as the company gave was 3%. But that is a whole different story than this vid is about...
I have seen people taken on more responsibility and never get promoted. Then, those people who can't perform get promoted because that department wanted them out of their department. Then, my promotion included the new work while still performing my last job while they hired more people to perform the new work. The plan was to get rid of us older workers. The explanation was they can't find anyone to do our last jobs. Then, when we retired a few years later, they passed it on to those they hired the same time as my promotion and started this procedure again. It was their way around age discrimination.
At this point I would turn down any promotion that put me in charge of other people. I've been a manager before (I was the Creative Director for a publishing company for 13 years). I never want to deal with underlings ever again. I just want to do my job and be done with it. If I ever had to manage people again, the only way I'd do it is if I was the owner of the company. Otherwise its just not worth it.
I just got offered a retention bonus but it means I have to stay in my job until end of this year or I have to pay it back. I really didn’t want to stay. But listening to this maybe it’s better than them promoting me (which is what I wanted).
I worked for a multi national company, they put me in charge of a failing department, after a year I had turned the department round and I got a pay rise. I continued to make improvements and a year later I got another pay rise. Shortly after I was made redundant. One day later another manager, same company but different department, heard I was being made redundant and offered me a job at the same pay as my latest rise, which I took even though it would mean forsaking a redundancy pay out. 4 years later I was again made redundant and this time I took the money as I hated the job. A week later I got another job in a small company.
I'd say it's a good thing that people are being honest with themselves and their bosses. It means promotions go to those who really want that work load, and possibly also indicates that those who do not are satisfied where they are. The last place I worked was of that model: a handful of us wanted to climb the ladder and did so, while those who had taken the job because it was fairly easy to do--and easier still to leave behind at the end of the workday--they were happy with that option. Obviously, if people across the board are not motivated, something is wrong. But if people are simply finding what works for them and feel good about that, there's no need for 100% wanting that promotion. 50% actually sounds reasonable to me.
I've never been promoted, and I don't understand why not. All my evaluations at my various jobs have been great. When I pursued a move to management, I was told I was doing really well in my role and I couldn't go for management. So annoying.
Boomers turned promotions into a circus. They worked hard and got rewarded in their careers. Now when it's our turn, they realized they can keep moving the goal posts with false promises to squeeze employees. When employees get fed up and leave, they blame the person leaving, calling them the problem. Eventually, they'll promote someone and go "see, all you had to do was work hard."
I wouldn't accept a promotion because the added stress makes my seizure disorder worse. No job is worth my health getting worse. Secondly, I have the most experience in retail and almost a year of retail management. I have no desire to be a manager again after being one. I was good at everything but the managing people portion of it. I couldn't quite get the hang of motivating others or improving morale when things weren't going well. I was too intrinsically motived by my own personal goals and objectives. Which made it difficult for me to understand why others weren't as motivated and passionate about going the extra mile. I'm on the spectrum which I didn't know at the time. Sheds a lot of light on why I particularly struggled with the managing people portion of retail management. Third Ive yet to find a management job that pays enough for me to even consider applying for one. I'm in the US located in the Pacific North West. For me to even consider applying for a management role I'm looking for 18-21 an hour. Most of the roles I come across only pay 15-16. That's not enough money for me to consider taking on the stress of being in management.
My last job was 8:30-5, my current job is 9-5:30. They’re squeezing more time out of us, and not paying lunch breaks. I only get 30 mins break. It’s just too much to still be broke when you spend most of your waking hours at work or commuting to/from work. I am always burned out. We are doing and paying more than ever, for less returns than ever.
I randomly met a middle manager stacking collecting trolleys in a supermarket, he took either early retirement or voluntary redundancy, said it was the best move he'd ever made, zero stress, zero responsibility, 9 to 5 (or whatever shifts) every week, no staying behind for hours to deal with issues, said he wished he'd done it years sooner
My part time job asked me about taking the supervisor job. No i don't want to wake up at 4 am on Saturday. No i don't want to stay till 10:30 pm. No i don't want to work 8 hours on Saturday and sunday The job also knows i have a full-time job that runs monday to friday. All for an extra dollar an hour.
I don't want a promotion because of the ineptitude of my co-workers. I graduated from RMC Duntroon, and have years of experience in a leadership role in combat, but the reality is we give too many passes to useless people. I dont play that way, and it would end up in my firing for making someone cry.
I got offered a promotion because I was good at my job. I countered with a 3 month test promotion. Came with the pay rise but if i didnt enjoy it or wasnt good at being a supervisor, i'd return to the job I was good at. Over that 3 months I noticed that one girl would have been far better at the job. I stepped down and suggested she got it. Boss loved me after that.
I’m on the fence about the next promotion, because it comes with being so important that I can’t go on vacation near as much, nor in large chunks. I like taking month long vacations, but once you’re in such an important role, you can’t be MIA for a week, let alone a month. It also came to a desire to start becoming part time as a form of early retirement, but again, in a upper mid to top level role can’t be done part time.
My old boss asked me a couple of times if I wanted to start managing teams….when I said no he smiled and said “you’ve got the best job in the company”…..he knew the score😂
Increased responsibility and workload, with an “opportunity” for enhanced remuneration at a later date - which rarely ever arrives. Not only this, but also promotion often means that you are no longer eligible for overtime (management role), just time back in lieu - that you rarely ever get to take, and if you do it is noted and used against you when it comes to getting a pay rise. I was an apprentice with a guy who never got promoted beyond a mid level technician role - the happiest most contented guy I know.
I work for a big telco. I have a colleague who started the same time as me. I went to a specialist role and focused on my technical skills, he went on the people manager path and became a team leader, then a department head. He is managing around 50 people now... His biggest problem is he still doing basically support desk agent work when there is a big escalation, he is sitting in calls with customers if needed for 10 hours while having to do all administration, attend all leadership meeting, deal with peoples problems, scheduling etc... Meanwhile he doesnt make more money than me. As a senior solution architect I'm in the same wage band as him and I do get paid overtime if there is international call or something like that. He doesnt, he is expected to jump on a call to help his team and he cant put in overtime... So to be honest I really feel sorry for him, the amount of stress and workload he is experiencing doesnt really worth the honestly mediocre pay we get.
Quality of life is an important factor, but I think there's something else going on here that's a more recent development. We all know that wages haven't kept up with inflation in the last handful of years, and I think this really affects workers' mentalities, especially younger ones. Chasing "the good life" has almost become a fool's errand, because even if you get modest pay bumps, it doesn't feel like you can make much, if any, progress toward your financial goals (including buying a home). You might think that declining purchasing power would prompt people to seek more money, and to a certain extent, it probably does. But I think that theory breaks down at some point -- when no matter what you do, your financial goals keep getting further away b/c inflation has taken a forever-chunk of value out of the currency and -- in particular -- housing prices keep skyrocketing. Some years ago, the median house cost about 3x the median annual salary. Recently, it's closer to 5-7x. When you take into account the fact that price increases on stuff operate off percentage increases, and since wages didn't rise with inflation when it was really high, the gap between wages and the prices of stuff will continue to widen over time. It's quite literally the case that the longer you wait to, say, buy a house, the further behind you're getting. So, in sum, hopelessness could be a factor here. People don't see the point of climbing the ladder -- sacrificing their time and quality of life -- for goals that will only continue to get further away.
44 years old, did the working my way up thing when I was younger. Spent most of my life stressed AF because of it. Gen Z are doing it right. Have a McJob and a side hustle. I now do 40 hours @ min wage and save my energy for living my life or working for myself on the side. The problem you get is the people who are working their way up in businesses now are the ones that want the status and aren't necessarily suited to the job. In my last job (which I loved) our boss got moved sideways, he came to me and asked my if I wanted to apply. Nope, don't need the stress of it, and I didn't need to be the stress of working for the other person who could apply.
I don't mind a promotion, but I don't want management. And unfortunately, there is a ceiling where if you don't take a management position, you can't get promoted further. I'm as high as I can go in my department without taking on a management role and that would be a disaster for me and the company.
It came up in part with people not getting paid enough to cover the extra but I'm surprised people didn't mention that actually applying for the same job as the promotion elsewhere usually pays better. Similarly, in getting promoted, you know that they'd pay an external more than you're going to get. They always quote that policy says they can only pay you a maximum % more for a promotion but it absolutely makes you feel like they only care about the bottom line and one of the reasons for promoting you (even if not the main one) is because it's cheaper than recruiting. I have accepted one promotion and turned down one promotion. One was for a role I wanted and was already working at and got me a pay bump, the other was a role I really didn't want to do (external client facing) so I already know I'm also 50/50 on whether I'd accept.
My son has turned down a promotion. More base salary but no overtime equals no pay rise. My son-in-law has also refused. It's the minimum wage rises, I think - differentials have been seriously eroded.
If the employer is being shortsighted on it, take advantage. Sure, it can work out to less per hour, but do it for 3-6 months, stick that extra experience on your CV, and increase your usual asking price to what you *should* be paid on the promotion. Purely playing Devil's Advocate here - I'd be damned if I took a promotion when where I am now!
I turned down a promotion at work, because they essentially said my work load would double and they couldn't guarantee what hours I would work, as in my hours would be random all the time.
What is missing is that many jobs these days are totally unfulfilling. The're no commiunity, no purpose. They're desk bound with little variety Mental health is low not because of "work". It is becuase of today's work.
At my workplace the managers are used and abused massively. -Managers make 20% less than I do. -They're salary and oh boy does that get abused (many unpaid work hours) -Basically always on call without additional pay -Their work load is infeasible. Especially because of how often they're trapped in pointless meetings with upper management who seem to have nothing better to do (I'm in these meetings a lot due to my role) There's just so many downsides and no upsides I can see other than some tiny impossible promise of a path upwards. It's so abusive and I won't subject myself to that ever. Not at this place and probably not at any other.
I'm a software engineer and I changed from working in lead positions back to non-lead positions. Despite this been quite a large drop in wage I'd had enough of the constant unreasonable demands from above and below and the politics was ridiculous. I went back to what I enjoy - actual software development - with almost no stress.
We're in our 50s my husband has been with the same company since ge left school. At one point he was a director with a company car. He wasn't right for him, now he is a manager and works four days a week, I don't think its a generaional thing but I think the workplace ethos has evolved from the idea that you need to constantly move up the ladder to valuing a better work/ life balance.
The old way: here's your regular wage increase for inflation... Oh, you're doing a good job. Want to take a promotion that puts you in a higher pay scale and comes with new benefits, and we will ant to keep you longer in case of layoffs or cost cutting. The new way: well, we've given you pay raises for the last five years - you now make what we pay our people in a higher position. Take this promotion while doing your old work duties also, or you are fired. Realize you no longer have a career with one company. Companies view workers as a liability and look for the cheapest labor to boost profits. Modern workers don't expect to be trained, and if they don't move to a new job within 2 years (how they get a pay raise) they expect to be fired - and they're not wrong. How many austerity rounds have we gone through in the last five decades where the companies line their pockets with the recovery rather than undo austerity measures. Also, companies are idiots - they think anyone with half a beain can manage people. It is actually a difficult skill combining logistics, psychology, sociology, and business intellegence at a minimum. Another way to look at it: old promotions were about putting a person in a new higher skilled role to help the company thrive, new promotions are about job position consolidation (if you do the job of two people, the company will give you 10-30% the wages of the job position they are making you take over without relieving you of your old job). So, would I rake a promotion? Not really, because what they offer aren't really promotions but labor cost cutting to make the owners even richer.
I think in general, we see now how vulnerable a job can be, so putting all your eggs in one basket, which is inevitable when your job expects so much from you, is not a practical thing to do. We'd rather have that one reliable ok job and then find another way to earn on the side - can be the way to go.
Recently, a friend turned down a promotion to regional supervisor. The new position involved a travelling, no fuel allowance, for a whole 5 pence an hour increase! 🤔
Another side of promotions is that if it is into a managerial track you have much higher career risk. Technical roles are much more transplant-able, while middle manager roles are often much more company specific. I've had multiple former manager who "took one for the team" to fill a managerial role, only to be unemployable afterwards. A former director trying to get back into a technical role raises all sorts of red flags, even if it is in good faith and they really do not want to be a manager anymore.
The math is simple: Double the workload & stress for a 10% pay bump? No wonder 42% say no. Big respect for highlighting this isn't about laziness - it's about people finally doing the cost-benefit math 🎯
what about the others saying yes?
@@frankfahrenheit9537they either desperately need the money, or want want the title and climb the ladder
I left my old job because I was given a promotion I had rejected. I was offered a department head position since my predecessor was moving. I wasn't trained for the position, so I shadowed for the position for a month. While I was shadowing for the department head position, I quickly realized no effort was being made to fill my current role and I would be expected to fill both roles. I made sure to formally reject the promotion with the manager, assistant manager, and DISTRICT manager. I was told that they'd be hiring externally to fill the position, but a week before my predecessor left, I noticed the schedule had changed and was now listing me as the new head of the department. I was assured it was temporary, but after it became clear that they had no interest in hiring externally, replacing my previous role, or better staffing my new department, I provided my notice. The promotion didn't even come with a pay raise as I had apparently been getting paid better than my predecessor.
You are absolutely right. I'm an old git (71) and have seen the world of work deteriorate steadily over decades. Employers demand more for less every year. If anything, people, especially younger people, work harder nowadays than I did when I was their age. They certainly put in more hours. Before I retired, I refused a "promotion" for exactly the reasons stated - more hours/responsibility, little if any increase in pay. Essentially, they wanted to benefit from my experience and knowledge but not reward me for it. No thanks.
Just when your mentally winding down to stop work, they say hey do want more responsibilities. Hope they weren't disappointed with your response.
Walking down the street, I bumped into an old boss of mine. We had kept in contact over the years. The first thing he said was “Dennis left”. Dennis had worked for him for 6 years, in that time gone through every part of the business, run the business when the Boss went on holidays, designed improvements etc. Dennis had been married 12 months ago. The Boss gave him a large bonus when he got married. Dennis left for a job with less working hours, no weekend work, lower pay. The Boss complained saying he planned to retire and make Dennis the Manager in 2 years, now he couldn’t retire! I asked him if he had told Dennis of the plan, he said No, why would I do that?
My brother was being trained to be a manager but didn't tell him, so he left.
ummmm, it makes sense. Do not promise anybody future Huge Success. First of all - he will not trust you, considering it is just a carrot for donkey. Second - if he does trust he may completely change his aims, development, quality and so on, "I am you future boss, so obey me now!". Very risky idea.
@@antontsau Hello antonsau, Life’s funny, after meeting my old boss and having the discussion about Dennis, I bumped into Dennis and his Wife at a BBQ for the local Football Club, my Wife and Dennis wife got chatting. It seems the motivation for the move to the new job was because the discussed it and saw no future at Dennis job, they figured take the pay cut, get the extra time and Dennis could (he did) do some part-time study to upgrade his qualifications. It actually turned out well for them, Dennis was promoted 4 months into his new job, they gave him an Assistant Manager job, 15% pay raise AND agreed he can take time off for study and they will pay for the study. They have a policy of internal promotion and fostering staff improvement.
@@antontsau You have a point but in this particular case, that strategy didn't play out well. There are no guarantees everything is situational
@@User-p7q7d it does not guarantee anything, its opposite - if you promise future promotion it may spoil everything, destroy the whole company.
I've left more than one company because they demanded I accept a promotion to a manager position with people managing.
I'm an IT person. Honestly, I find managing myself is a full time job. I have neither the time nor interest in managing anyone else. I am a computer geek. I enjoy it. I don't really like people. Why would you want me to manage others?
Have I? Yes. Did my staff love it? Mostly. Did the rest of management like it? Not especially. Did I enjoy it? Not even a little.
Yeah, I'm I.T support, have an opportunity to be a sys admin at a different workplace, but never applied for it because I don't want to be responsible for the guaranteed data leaks their systems have. All systems are not a matter of if but when they will be hacked. Don't want to deal with it. (The small pay increase, isnt worth trying to deal with all the headaches of a 30 year old domain that nobody has properly fixed up. Also get taxxed more :(....)
@StormHawksHD - I did the sys admin thing on a "training" OS390 a decade or three ago. When they decided to repurpose it to use for clients, I decided sys admin wasn't my happy place. You made a wise decision to not apply.
@@StormHawksHDThat last line about taxation tells me why you’re _really_ still IT support. 😂😂😂😂
I feel exactly the same way, I'm happiest as a basement troll working on systems and reluctantly emerging on occasion for food...
Seems to be how IT jobs work - what ever you like they want you to do the opposite I'm in IT but I love working with people, I love the customer/user facing part of the job, face to face, over the phone what ever doing deap dive trouble shooting/solving for a customer or group of clients is what gets me through the day ...but obviously work keeps wanting to push me towards system admin type jobs, hate them, done them, several times (even have the certs to show I know my sh*t) but hated every damn minute in the dark back office space that system admin teams always seem to get shoved.
I turned down a big promotion when working for a major bank. The pay was nice but I was told point blank Id be working 70 hpur weeks, which pretty much erased the raise. My oldest was just about to enter kindergarten and I didn't want to be an absent parent, so I declined... And was demoted from my management position for not being a team player. They fired me after the replacement manager was up to speed
They've since asked me to come back a couple of times but I won't even bank with them, nevermind working there again.
That's not a bank, that's a cult.
I worked for a large investments bank for about 6 weeks. I interview. I was 9-5 I got there. I went to the "induction" about week 3 on the job. I was told that the "professional work day was "8-6" and was expected to do at home call handling in the middle of the night as well. I left by week 6. When i handed in my notice my boss was really pissed because it took 2 months to get me there with interviews and me working notice etc.. elsewhere. It wasted about 4-5 months of her time.
I just said. "If you were honest in the interview, this would not have occurred."
@@TheMaleReithat’s most jobs lol
@@TheMaleRei is there a difference?
@@slider799 Ha I went to an interview where the 2IC told the boss in the middle he was having dinner in the city and would come back in at midnight to finish something. Most honest interview ever - hope they went well!
I left my old job of 18 years after seeing the Peter Principle play out too many times. When interviewing for my new job I made it clear that I wasn't looking to climb the ladder, I just wanted to do the job (engineer) as it seemed the higher up the ladder you were, the further away from the fun work you got. Both of the guys interviewing me (both engineers and now engineering managers) agreed wholeheartedly "you're not bloody wrong!" I couldn't be happier at the new place but let's see how I feel in 17 years time!
Wish I could find an interview panel like this, not only do you ALWAYS have someone from HR but it's usually the manager or manager of the manager of the position your applying for and the same level manager from a seperate team, quite obviously career oriented people, trying to sell you on the career path within the organisation, never anyone who's doing that job or who has done that job in the last 10 years (and in this job skills and knowledge rolls over every 4 to 6 years) meanwhile I'm saying "no just put me where I can deal face to face or over the phone with the clients to solve their problems and I'm set for life, not interested in managing technicians, I don't want to be a locked in a dark office infrastructure technician I just want to be a customer focused technician, I like it, I'm damn good at it and I can walk away at the end of the day knowing I've done my best"
somehow that just seems to come across as "deadbeat" or what ever
@@TheRealMarxz Over the last 28 years, I've had 3 interviews for 3 different firms/jobs and they were all my (future) direct boss and another engineer in the department and I got all three. All I can say is that I must have been very very lucky.
That is why I am an engineering contractor now. Max pay and I only do the fun stuff. If they give me something mundane, I ask them whether that is a good use of what they pay me.
I got a ”promotion” on my last workplace. There was no pay increase, no new benefits, I didn’t get to manage the personnel but I was ”responsible” for their work and it came with a stupid title that is no real use on my CV since it was basically made up. And after that my CEO started to book meetings with me every week to talk about ”my groups” performance. I tried to tell him that if I was going to be responsible for them I need to be able to at least be part of the management of them, I said I need to be part of the choices of who we would employ and that I wanted to be able to give a raise or benefits to the personnel that did a really good job. He said no, all I needed to do was make sure everyone performed at 110% and bla bla bla. I asked why this new responsibility didn’t come with some sort of pay increase, but he just said that if things went well, I could get a little extra at the next years salary negotiations. I quickly started to look for another job.
Good on you, I got promoted to an assistant store manager position. Got the title, "pay increase", and the fancy shirt. One evening our team really messed up, I was instructed by the store manager to write everyone up only to be written up myself by the director of operations 3 days later for "over stepping my bounds". Apparently, I was a manager in everything but the employees. I've since found myself being offered several leadership roles where I don't actually have any power over the employees I'm supposed to be responsible for. I've learned to turn down those opportunities.
Was that non-management position anything with the word "guild" in it, by any chance?
@@PawsOnTheBalcony Lol, no. I’m from Sweden, so it’s a bit hard to translate to English, but it was something like Group leader. The proper title should have been something more like operative team manager.
Another fun fact about that job was that I cost the company about 70K kr each month with salary, employer fees and taxes, and I brought in around 165K kr every month. That was in 2nd line IT support, I know most of the salespeople made lower percentages than that.
All titles are made up, jobs are a scam
Promotions are the WORST! I was promoted to a senior position, at my last job, and it was the worst thing that could have happened. I went from having a solid team of 15 personnel, who all performed well, to a 140 person underperforming dumpster fire, in a completely different area. I was working 60 hours a week, on site, and on the phone all night, almost every night of the week, as we were a 24/7 operation. I later found out that my supervisors were on 8 K p.a less than me.
Two jobs back:
1. I got a promotion without a pay rise. I was like "WTF? OK then." Got a backdated pay rise when they found out I had started jobhunting.
2. Told my immediate superior that I wasn't interested in further promotion. "Because look at the state you're in. No thanks."
Last job:
1. At my job interview they asked me where I see myself in 5 years or whatever - I said doing the same thing because I enjoy this particular niche. I still need to keep up to date with current technical developments so it's not a stagnant position. I just didn't want extra responsibilities.
2. Despite this, was constantly harried to "push myself and do more" despite already being stressed and overworked. Made it clear (in case I wasn't clear before) that I'm not interested in promotion. I was happy with my position, my salary and didn't "want more".
I'm Gen X (almost 50).
Been in IT for 10 years and I honestly don't want middle management. Team Lead is fine. I don't see what's wrong with enjoying what you do every day, sometimes having a one off challenge and again to learn or grow.
Some people think you should show ambition for ambitions sake.
Being a manager sucks. I'll stick with being a subject matter expert, make 6 figures, and be mostly left alone.
I absolutely HATE being responsible for someone else's competence and work ethic. 25% more pay isn't worth 300% more misery. It might be different if I was struggling financially, but I'm just not desperate enough for money to commit self harm... which is what being a 'boss' would be for me.
My son has been applying to so many jobs but because he doesn't have any experience places haven't been calling him back. I know this video is focused on promotions, but the statement no one wants to work really grinds my gears. My son wants to work but can't even get an interview. It's unreal.
Don't worry, he's not alone. I have 15+ years experience and places don't call me back either. Look up "ghost jobs."
as someone that is part of the people they are talking about i have to say it is really annoying as i myself do want to work
I was offered a promotion...basically taking over my boss' position when she retired. She herself offered it to me. But I saw her job...70 hours a week average. She was constantly expected to bring work home to work on. Plus the job was salaried. I didn't know her exact salary but had a pretty good idea. So I figured out the number of hours I knew she did and what her estimated salary turned out to be per hour...in the end I would have taken a pay cut. I politely told her that I valued my down time too much for so little pay. At first she was confused so I explained it all to her and ended with the company obviously did not value her time after 20 years, they were definitely not going to value my time. As I said, she was retiring so she didn't really have an issue with me being that truthful with her. She nodded and said she kind of felt that would be my response.
I kept getting promoted because I was good at my job. I refused once and there was almost a 'threat' that if I didnt take it then there would be problem. I hated it. In the end I had a breakdown because the people I was working for planned... yes planned to get rid of me. It took me years to recover but now I have a job with an amazing boss. They dont know my background and I am happy with that and my job.. I still work hard but I am out of that vipers den.
Another really big one is that very few people coming into the workplace are getting adequate training for the jobs they are in. A lot of people complain about their “entitlement” and fake it til you make it approach to work, but they have no choice. They are being pushed into jobs they aren’t equipped to do. Zero chance I’d take on responsibility for staff who can’t perform. You end up doing their jobs for them, on top of managing them. Nightmare scenario.
I turned down a promotion because of the tax thresholds. Between Student Loan and the loss of Child Benefit (I have 3 children) I worked out I would effectively pay almost 70% tax rate on the new money. So even though the promotion came with a salary increase, I would see very little, but the impact the new job would have on my costs for more home help and child care due to extra responsibilities would have meant I'd see very little actual increase in money in my bank account at the end of the month. Instead I spend time with my kids.
This is an incredibly perverse system. You're intentionally underemploying yourself because of social programs.
Gotta say this. I started a business from scratch. After 10 years I employed 35 people. I did a 10 year review, I was working minimum 60 hours a week, often more. My “Take Home” pay, after making all the responsible decisions was about 50% more than I made in the 1st year I started the business. I then asked my employees if any of them or any group of them wanted to buy the business. After a month, 4 of the employees made an Offer, we negotiated, finally a price was agreed and I sold out and walked away. I then took 4 months off, moved a long way for a lifestyle move and started a new business, firmly determined to only EVER employ 1 person, she was my P.A. From the old business. In 6 months I was making a “Take Home” of 70% of the income the year before, my P.A. Was making 110% of her previous pay. I was working 35 hours a week.
Hats off to you, truly a great outcome.
My mom had her own business doing taxes during tax season and accounting for a few local businesses. She knew she never wanted to grow large enough to hire someone, so she kept raising her rates until her new clients and lost clients evened out each year. She retired happy.
@ Hello again, your Mum is a very cany woman, in my second business I did exactly the same thing AND limited the number of clients I had. I also, for fun, did Pro Bono work on informal reference from trusted friends and acquaintances. The Pro Bono work took me to some strange places and I met strange people and was forced to consider many different views ad cultures, it kept life interesting. My PA hated the Pro Bono work, whinged whenever I did it, but her best friend is an ex Pro Bono client!
I turned down a workload because the management lost some other managers and they needed me to 'Temporarily' help till recruitment came though. 3 months later.. Still got the workload.
I laid a complaint with HR, went through discussions and the respective managers were torn a new one because they tried to say I was not doing my tasks... which was the extra work they asked me to help out with over and above my contract.
I ended up leaving mid last year because I lost the will to even do my own work.
The problem with promotions is that there is an increase in statutory liability, having to deal with government departments, dealing with the internal politics of your team, dealing with company politics and getting chewed out by senior management for failing to meet impossible goals. In return you get a small pay rise, half of which is taken by tax and the pleasure of starting earlier and finishing later. In effect the real hourly rate goes down.
I had a manager offer me a promotion which included a small pay rise, I rejected it on the spot. He said I would get a prestigious title. I told him my bank accepts cash, not prestige.
if you're in a high enough tax bracket to lose half your pay to taxes then you're doing very well for yourself. I think a lot of people don't understand how tax brackets work, you don't lose half your money, you lose 45% of OVER £125k. The money before £125k is not taxed at that rate.
@AB-sem There is genuinely wilful ignorance on hiw Taxes work.
However... "benifits" and "credits" that's a challenge to get your head around. And it's often the people with the least money, time, attention and support are affected.
I was offered a promotion to "manager" at my last job but the problem is it was only a $1 an hour increase and I would have had to have literally been on call from 6 AM till midnight! I told them I wasn't interested and they seemed shocked.
It was a similar sort of a thing at my previous job. They kept offering me promotions, but you get a very small bump in salary, no increase in ability to enforce whatever managerial decisions you get to make, and you get yelled at if everything isn't the way they want it to be. I got stuck managing the department for 4 months without any pay, I found out at that point, that they weren't going to give me the manager bonus, a portion would be going to the new manager when they eventually decided to hire one, and he'd be getting a bit of bonus based entirely on the work that I had done.
I stuck around for a few weeks, but the whole thing just reinforced the reasons I had for not wanting to be a manager there. I could do the managerial tasks quite well, but I had absolutely no faith that after having been promised by corporate that I'd be taken care of, that taken care of meant being present when they gave somebody my bonus and completely left out of any pay for the work I had done, while they took their sweet time looking for somebody to fill any of the open positions in the department. I think, there were supposed to be 3 or 4 total, and we had 2, which meant the only way to cover all the shifts would have been for us to both work 7 days a week.
Did you try to renegotiate the T&Cs?
should have told them you wanted an additional 10-15% for being on call.. you might have gotten a bite
I got promoted and they wanted to give me a .50 raise I already work a shitty job with shitty pay no thanks. So eventually i got them to cave to $2 raise and even then im still looking for a new job and they don’t know it yet
@ with the ability to say you are on more! go you! :)
I recently left an IT job after 25 years (declined to relocate). In our company, there were three different promotion tracks: programmers/analysts/architects, product owners/project management, and admin/people management. I started out in the first track and rose up to near the top of it after about 10 years. Then I had a choice to make on whether I wanted to stay where I was and eventually hit a ceiling or make a lateral move and keep climbing. I decided to switch to people management but only lasted about a year. It sucked. Too many hours and headaches dealing with poor performers. Thankfully I was able to make another lateral move to project management where I stayed for the remainder of my time there. I was able to impact the business more as a subject matter expert and project leader without the headaches of being directly responsible for the people I worked with.
I'm in my 60's and have never accepted a promotion. I am very well paid as a Technical Consultant to Businesses and Government Departments implementing complex IT systems.
I enjoy my technical work and frankly find managing people and the associated paperwork life shatteringly boring.
On the other hand, I tell the organisations that I work for that I want written responsibility and accountability for the implementation projects that I undertake. This is primarily so that I can manage the often stupid expectations of the executive management team.
I've experienced this personally and find it common in STEM fields. It's also one of the easiest ways to destroy a good department by promoting one of the productive employees. They don't want to stop doing the line work and neglect organizational duties for the work they enjoy.
It's all the peripheral stuff that puts me off. I just want to do my job. I don't want all the extra meetings and requirements to conduct countless 121s, PDRs, etc, that come with promotions at my workplace. There's no such thing as a promotion to a senior role in my [niche] position based on knowledge and experience - just vacancies with people management, which really isn't my bag... I would be a terrible manager because I just don't have the patience with people.
Seeing it in the US military as well. Lots of folks don’t want the beat down that comes with having a command for example, and as a result of going down the list of candidates for command, they’re getting less qualified people being put in charge. Which leads to other problems.
- Any time a company I've been in has gone through redundancies, middle management are the first to be cut. If I'm on the floor, I'm more valuable.
- I don't want to be middle management whose delegating work that I could do, to someone else (because if I can do it and have the time, why wouldn't I do it? Why do I need to give it to someone else just because I'm a "manager"?)
- I want to feel like I'm making a difference in the company, and being on the floor and seeing the changes upfront/customer facing gives a more immediate job satisfaction than waiting on stats at the end of the quarter to know if I've done good or not.
- My current position allows me to be able to say "no, because..." or "this won't get done on time unless you sacrifice something". Middle management aren't able to say the same as easily, there is an expectation that you "just make it work". I don't want that stress, I'd want to be certain that scheduling based on resource is abided by and not questioned or challenged.
- Work/life balance is important, once the perfect balance is reached, why would we sacrifice it for extra money that doesn't really make it worth while?
Respectfully,
A Millenial
Absolutely, my company's head office is in the Far East and we had an IT Director sent over to the UK. I was a development team manager at the time and there were other team managers within IT. Some months after the IT Director arrived, she called is in and said she was changing the department to matrix management and our job titles would change but salaries would stay the same and we would do the same work. A month later Head Office announced redundancies would be made, and none of ex-managers were even on the list of possible redundancies. After the dust settled, the IT Director told us that she knew the redundancies were coming and that it was policy to cull middle management first, so she saved us by changing the department structure and our job titles because we actually did useful work. I still work for that company 30 years later and I have always insisted on never being a "manager" My value to the company doing the useful work that I enjoy (rather than piddling around with admin and meetings) means that I can still command a high level salary as a technical expert.
I first entered full time work in the 1980s, and back then it was all "push-push-push climb the corporate ladder", but I've realised that it was all a lie. Do what you enjoy doing because you're going to be doing it for a long long time before you can retire
Also, look up the "peter principle"
If you're good at what you do, stay there!
The promotion job requires a different set of talents.
Your experience with middle managers getting laid off before individual contributors is not common. Until a few years ago, only 20% of layoffs targeted managers. In recent years, there has been a huge uptick, but the number was still 31.5% in 2023. So even after this large shift, you're still twice as likely to get laid off if you're not a manager.
I've been working since 1996, one thing I've noticed is that today workplace is that even though we have more technology (aka computers) the communication levels are dropping. Less things are being passed on and the more things are a panic "need it yesterday".
This Leeds to why I would never take a promotion, because I often see my supervisor begging people to stay late or work a weekend and if they cant find anyone they are expected to do it themselves.
a promotion at my job is an extra 20 quid a week and a shit load of extra work and responsibility and your manager blaming everything on you
It depends on the promotion, at my last employer I was promoted twice within 12 months. I was thrown up the ladder too quickly and really struggled. I went from a basic analyst role to a senior role, to a manager. I hated my job and the stress was too much. I loved the pay but it was all too much too quickly. I got on well with my staff but the head of dept was always demanding more regardless of how well my team performed.
I left after 5 years (management for 18 months) because the stress and the emotional drag just got too much. I took a pay cut to leave and moved back into the role I worked before the promotions started. I've now been promoted again twice since but have taken the technical route. I no longer manage people, I manage computer infrastructure. I have specialised into a more niche IT role and earn considerably more than I did in management. It was the best career move I ever made.
IMHO, companies that are properly run, don't have issues with getting people to take promotions. If you've got a bunch of people refusing promotions, especially, the good folks that have other options but don't necessarily want to put up with the hassles associated with changing jobs.
Took a promotion from a hourly position to a salaried one a few years ago. Found out that being salaried came with a unspoken and undocumented requirement for a min of 5 hours of OT every week or else you 'were not considered to be working a full schedule and therefore were underutilized'. My hourly position had required no OT. Salaried does not pay more for doing OT- so it was 10 hours of unpaid extra work per pay period. It was over two years before I was actually making more $ for my time than I had been in my hourly position. It paid off in the long run- in five years I doubled my take home pay- but it was significantly more work, more stress, and a ton more hours for very little gain in the short term.
I found it frustrating, to get a better wage you always have to strive to get promotions into management till the pressure gets to the point where they lose a good person who just wanted a real wage and perhaps a rise in pay.,
Being a good worker = inc workload, inc responsibilities, inc stress, less free time, less freedom, tiny tiny tiny bit of extra pay….. nah I’m grand cheers
Sometimes not even extra pay. You have to hope the right people saw it to get that. If it's just everyone else you'll only get a thank you for doing it and screeching if you pull back.
This is why CEOs shouldn't be paid millions of dollars
It disincentivizes anyone actually doing more work if nobody is actually going to get paid for working harder
Exactly this. They keep cutting people or not filling positions as people leave. So now you get promoted to 2-3x the work with a dismal pay increase, and maybe an extra day or two of vacation? Nah.
At least for Gen-X, you forgot one *big* issue with promotions: We don't like to go to the next step in the Peter Principle. You know, somebody who is really great and efficient in laying bricks (to keep things simple) might not be the best one to suddenly do management functions, like telling others what they have to do next. Somebody who is an exceptional programmer can be the most shittiest project planner you've ever encountered, *simply because this is not their area of expertise!* We like to do the jobs we are good at, and you simply cannot compensate this by paying a higher salary for the "better" position...
Don't get me wrong, there are for sure some people who may be good (or even great) in both areas, but the *next* promotion will need them to have even more management skills - which they probably don't have. As such, more money is not even a thing to think about when it comes to getting a promotion, and exactly the reason why most Gen-X I know prefer a "horizontal career" (which, sadly, most of those managers simply don't get or understand).
Truth is upper management has screwed around employees since the 80’s. Now people have hit the screw around & find out point for management. The fear of being threatened with job loss isn’t what it used to be.
Yep, that's why I generally refuse promotions. It's not that I can't do the managing, it's that the idiots above me make it incredibly miserable to do so.
Boss spent year complaining how awful and frustrating his management chain was (often to blame-shift criticism he should have owned), and then was surprised when all of his direct zero desire to become a manager when he was moved up to a director. So he promoted me into the next technical rung, only to then use my new title as an excuse to slowly pass off a lot of managerial tasks (running meetings, writing half his reviews for him, etc) under the guise of "technical leadership". He was strangely surprised when I quit...
Another thing not really addressed here- the glass cliff. Where I work a number of newly promoted Leads and Managers are not given enough direction or support to actual do their jobs. If the job is project based, this can be due to internal company politics where someone in another group is trying to divert resources or stop a project that they don't agree with. Sooo what happens is that they promote up an Engineer- someone young and inexperienced enough to not understand the corporate pitfalls- then they overwhelm that person with new and poorly explained responsibilities, burn them out, blame the team's poor performance on that person, and then fire them. The lead or manager was set up to fail right from the beginning.
The problem with many promotions is that it is more responsibility without more authority. When things go good, you don’t get any credit. When things go bad, you get the blame even though you had no say in the process.
That's pretty much in every job.
I work in IT, you can work your bottom off, and for the mangers you just the IT guy; and they blame you for everything, even if their home router goes down.
That was one of the issues I had at the previous job I had. You get a tiny amount of extra money, no power to make anything happen, and a bunch of people above you on your ass because of things not being done, but there's no resources or power given to the manager to make it happen.
Any promotion in my job would have meant being a supervisor, a task at which I have sucked every time I’ve tried it. Also, I do like not having to worry about work when I’m not there. There are bigger things I could be doing at work but the boss doesn’t seem to value what I could bring to the business in those tasks. I’m a baker and would love some dedicate time to develop recipes and products, but now just have to try to fit it into my regular production schedule.
And my boss is really frustrated by the number of people who don’t want to become supervisors because of the dynamics of the kitchen.
I've been at my current job for five years, it's at a university and they worm on a geading shstem for staff. There are two guys there who've been there longer than me who I've surpassed grade wise, but I'm bringing a barely noteworthy amount in more than them.
They're two of the laziest people I've ever worked with, but they've got it completely worked out and there's 0 insentive for them to actually work hard.
Such a broken system in a lot of workplaces.
Would I turn down a promotion? Absolutely. I’d rather not deal with all the stress of delegating work, dealing with the higher ups, or all that extra work for so little gain. Not worth the headache imho.
All managers I have had except for 1 have been miserable, so the work must suck a lot.
Promotion is unpaid extra work most times, I'm 55yrs old earning $44,000 weekly and I'm retired, this video have inspired me greatly in many ways that I remember my past of how I struggled with many things in life to be where I'm today.
Hello 👋
How're you earning such weekly? sometimes I feel down on myself because of low finances,but I still believe in God
Thanks to Mrs. Elizabeth Regina Nelsen's time in my life, which had a profound impact on me.
Sounds familiar. I have heard her name on several occasions and read about her success stories in wall street journal!
Who's Elizabeth Regina Nelsen!?looking forward to this opportunity Can I also sign up from Ontario Canada?
She is really a good investment advisor. I was privilege to attend some of her seminars. That's how I started my own crypto investment.
I've been a manager three times and hated it. Managing people is difficult! I am close to retirement and don't plan on any more promotions.
I’ve turned down a couple of promotions. I was asked if I would move to Vegas for the same pay and more responsibility. Then I was asked to move to SLC to work in a toxic environment because I was good at dealing with toxic people. Really sold that one to me. I did take a position that was already near my home and which offered me interesting work to do. I’m happy now without a leadership position and being able to work from home now.
I had to fight for 2 years for my last promotion. The days of doing a good job, your manager recognising it and surprising you with a promotion, is long gone. I don’t even know what the point of role descriptions are, because you’re in role 1, you do the work of role 1 and role 2 according to the descriptions, but you’re still not entitled to a promotion. The quickest way is to change companies. If you don’t want to leave, then get a job offer somewhere else and threaten them with that.
I moved abroad for 3 years as I was promised a promotion upon finishing, I ended up never getting it.
Never again
Most promotions double your workload, and liability, with a 10% pay increase.
This. When I still had a salaried job, my unit's leader was making as much as I was. However, he had to train us, represent us in front of the bosses, approve our vacation days, plan our schedule...
I honestly wouldn't agree to do all this without at least a 70% increase.
Pay increase? I suddenly found out I am one of two tech leads... zero pay raise but judged by a totally different set of rules.
or no raise at all
My smallest raise with promotion was 15% and biggest was 30%. BUT, you have to fight for everything. Explain that you’re not happy and why. If they say something along the lines of, we need to discuss with so and so, BS they already know how high they can go. If all else fails threaten to leave. If they’re not willing to budge a bit to keep you, then you don’t want to be working there anyway.
If a promotion doubles your workload, you were either slacking off before, or you're now working 6am - 7pm 6 days a week.
Most promotions don't include any additional work, and many may add 5-10% more work. They usually add new work, but other work then gets deprioritized or delegated away.
I work about 5-10 hours a week more than when I was a junior individual contributor, and that increase occurred over 5 promotions and 15 years. That 20% increase in work came with a 400% increase in pay after inflation.
I'm a mid-level Software Developer and the idea of me applying for a promotion to Senior keeps being floated and I'm just not sure I can handle the increased expectations. The funny thing is, is that multiple managers I've had in the last 2 years have pegged me as being the right kind of person to be an Engineering Manager and think it's such a shame I really don't want to ever be a manager or even see myself growing past a Senior dev role. Honestly, I just don't trust my abiliies to manage people and I prefer to write code and solve problems I can see rather than trying to bulldoze roadblocks I see our managers handling. Also these are some of the best managers I've ever had, though I haven't really had any bad ones.
My dad and I had a conversation about moving up the "ladder." It turned out to be one of my last discussions with him ever. We spoke about the amount and the level responsibilities that were inherent to the position and one red flag that was raised was the lack of job security. He once quoted by saying "The grass is not always greener." I took that to heart because of the examples I learned from previous managers making huge mistakes (even a shift manager violating behavioral policy). Upper management knows that I have potential but working 13 hours a day, the responsibilities like paper work, and questioning the level of dedication needed. I couldn't do that for too long.
6 and a half minutes deep and both callers said" i wouldn't accept the promotion because xyz"
Instead of " i didnt accept the promotion"
I turned down one twice at my job. There was a decent pay increase but middle management is treated like shit and i want no part of that. I get treated badly enough at the bottom (me and the rest of the ants)
Fair play to that company who got rid of a guy working for them for 13 years without paying a penny of redundancy or constructive dismissal payment because they 100% wanted rid of him and he left voluntarily putting them in the clear.
A typical promotion works about like this:
You make $60K a year paid as an hourly worker. You work a standard 40 hour week. Rare if ever you'll work OT.
You get a "promotion" and now you're making $75K a year paid as a salaried worker. You routinely get expected to work a minimum 55-60 hour weeks.
So, you do the math. Hourly worker = $60K a year (roughly $28.85/hr.). Salaried worker = $75K a year ($26.50/hr. low end 55 hours to $24.04/hr. high end 60 hours). So your "promotion" was a marked DOWNGRADE. Big time. And since you're now salaried, you don't qualify for OT. Your pay is based on a 26 week pay schedule so you'll always make the same amount every pay day (assuming a bi-weekly pay schedule).
Is it any real wonder why so few want to get "promoted" these days? I'd only ever accept a promotion if: A) I am still paid as an hourly employee, or B) I am capped at 40 hours a week and no OT ever if salaried. Otherwise, a "promotion" is a pay loss. A HUGE pay loss.
I was a HGV driver at a large firm for 15 years, and regularly turned down promotions.
During any downtime, I'd help out in other parts of the business. Eg. Engineering, warehouse, office, etc. I know this sounds weird, but I really enjoyed going full steam. I'd regularly sit with managers to offer pointers where they could save money without compromising on efficiency or morale.
The reason I turned everything down is that all the regional managers refused to stop interfering in their subordinates work. (I believe that's called "micro managing").
In the end, I had to leave the company as hardly amy of the office staff in the haulage department had any knowledge in the industry, and doing their job became part of mine.
Middle management - the layers of unproductive bloat who get made redundant before anyone else does.
naturally!! middle management is the perfect example of caught between a rock and a hard place
Harder to manage up than down. I am an engineer what I work on obeys the laws of physics....upper management definitely don't. Repeating a question is not guaranteed to get the same answer.
I work in a unionised environment of science and engineering professionals in Canada. My cow-orker just turned down a promotion to management because the pay raise was not worth it. Our unionised workers get better benefits and protections and the managers get abused to the whims of foreign leadership. It is becoming a real problem because the only people willing to do management are those people without specialist education or even management experience.
I worked for a company for nearly 20 years, there was only two people in my department, my direct boss and me. The job is highly skilled and would take years of training to be proficient, I dealt with one side of the role and my boss the other. My boss retires and my employer ask me to take over my bosses responsibilities, and be solely in-charge of the department. They offered me £4K to do so, I refused they then went quiet on the subject for about 1-2 months came back and offered me £5k I refused again, they then threatened me with my job and when I stuck to my guns they then told me I wasn’t worth what I was asking! And it wasn’t a fortune I was asking for but considering I was taking over the department singlehanded what was two full time jobs and my boss was paid well (talking £60k+ and bonus/ benefits ,not sure the exact number) which I did not get!
So I got a promotion and then asked for a demotion. The promotion gave me another $28/day. The job went from being a tech to an engineer. The workload became 4-8x more. I didn't have time to use the restroom or eat. I was told to do 3+ tasks all the time. My instructors never talked to me, much less taught me. The management I met was abusive and insane. I missed a task, and another engineer was pissed. He asked why I missed it; I told him 'no one told me about this, I didn't know;' he said that was no excuse. Also, I was on call, and exempt so lots of unpaid overtime.
Not worth it! This was dumb. I didn't even say everything.
I took a 'promotion' into a new role that promised this that and the other, after a few months it was clear I'd made a wrong move and although I learned a few things, I knew I was better off as a tasker and IT do it all and definitely not a manager. Now I'm finding it hard to get re-hired as I was before because you can see their faces in interviews that when I tell them it wasn't for me, they see someone they can't 'promote' and joining a broken job markets making it all the harder too.
I had a temp job. The direct boss was awful, but I needed a job. I gave them a lot, I brought experience their team did not have. Eventually, they offered me a permanent position, but at the exact same rate I was being paid as a temp. I pushed back, because I knew they were paying $X more per hour to the agency. I said, "Not even a token 25 cents an hour increase as a token of good faith/welcome?" The boss and their boss refused to discuss it any further. I didn't take it, and they were shocked. Honestly glad I left, that team was a mess.
I've been given the dry promotion bait previously. I know what my company is up to and they now know they can't do this to me again. Didn't want to come back here after contracting for a year elsewhere, but that dried up.
I was promoted without a choice. 20 years in IT and I got a call saying that they’re moving me to manage a product. Had no idea what I was doing. I figured it out but yeah, it’s a mental choice for management to make.
I worked for a company for 18 years. In that 18 years I got several, so called, promotions. But really all they were was job title name changes. 5 different job titles. Did anything change, yeah more work. This would come about after yearly pay raise IF they gave one. Called it your pay increase for the new promotion, yeah name title change to do more work. Which was the same rate of change they would give IF you got a yearly pay increase. Which all came about there so called performance review when you get a score between 1 to 5. This was the percentage you get. Oh yeah the highest you could get was 3. I had a boss that would not bide by the company policy and would give 4 or 4.5, which I had several times. But as much as the company gave was 3%. But that is a whole different story than this vid is about...
I have seen people taken on more responsibility and never get promoted. Then, those people who can't perform get promoted because that department wanted them out of their department. Then, my promotion included the new work while still performing my last job while they hired more people to perform the new work. The plan was to get rid of us older workers. The explanation was they can't find anyone to do our last jobs. Then, when we retired a few years later, they passed it on to those they hired the same time as my promotion and started this procedure again. It was their way around age discrimination.
At this point I would turn down any promotion that put me in charge of other people. I've been a manager before (I was the Creative Director for a publishing company for 13 years). I never want to deal with underlings ever again. I just want to do my job and be done with it. If I ever had to manage people again, the only way I'd do it is if I was the owner of the company. Otherwise its just not worth it.
I just got offered a retention bonus but it means I have to stay in my job until end of this year or I have to pay it back. I really didn’t want to stay. But listening to this maybe it’s better than them promoting me (which is what I wanted).
I worked for a multi national company, they put me in charge of a failing department, after a year I had turned the department round and I got a pay rise. I continued to make improvements and a year later I got another pay rise. Shortly after I was made redundant. One day later another manager, same company but different department, heard I was being made redundant and offered me a job at the same pay as my latest rise, which I took even though it would mean forsaking a redundancy pay out. 4 years later I was again made redundant and this time I took the money as I hated the job. A week later I got another job in a small company.
I'd say it's a good thing that people are being honest with themselves and their bosses. It means promotions go to those who really want that work load, and possibly also indicates that those who do not are satisfied where they are. The last place I worked was of that model: a handful of us wanted to climb the ladder and did so, while those who had taken the job because it was fairly easy to do--and easier still to leave behind at the end of the workday--they were happy with that option. Obviously, if people across the board are not motivated, something is wrong. But if people are simply finding what works for them and feel good about that, there's no need for 100% wanting that promotion. 50% actually sounds reasonable to me.
15:02 AND get that in writing ALWAYS.
Just send a “recap” email to record a verbal conversation regarding promotions or anything else promised.
I've never been promoted, and I don't understand why not. All my evaluations at my various jobs have been great. When I pursued a move to management, I was told I was doing really well in my role and I couldn't go for management. So annoying.
They tend to promote the ones who can’t do their job….
Yeah. Normalize not wanting to be a boss. It would not be something I would be good at. I like the job I do now. Management tasks are soul crushing.
Boomers turned promotions into a circus. They worked hard and got rewarded in their careers. Now when it's our turn, they realized they can keep moving the goal posts with false promises to squeeze employees. When employees get fed up and leave, they blame the person leaving, calling them the problem. Eventually, they'll promote someone and go "see, all you had to do was work hard."
I wouldn't accept a promotion because the added stress makes my seizure disorder worse. No job is worth my health getting worse.
Secondly, I have the most experience in retail and almost a year of retail management. I have no desire to be a manager again after being one. I was good at everything but the managing people portion of it. I couldn't quite get the hang of motivating others or improving morale when things weren't going well. I was too intrinsically motived by my own personal goals and objectives. Which made it difficult for me to understand why others weren't as motivated and passionate about going the extra mile. I'm on the spectrum which I didn't know at the time. Sheds a lot of light on why I particularly struggled with the managing people portion of retail management.
Third Ive yet to find a management job that pays enough for me to even consider applying for one. I'm in the US located in the Pacific North West. For me to even consider applying for a management role I'm looking for 18-21 an hour. Most of the roles I come across only pay 15-16. That's not enough money for me to consider taking on the stress of being in management.
My last job was 8:30-5, my current job is 9-5:30. They’re squeezing more time out of us, and not paying lunch breaks. I only get 30 mins break. It’s just too much to still be broke when you spend most of your waking hours at work or commuting to/from work. I am always burned out. We are doing and paying more than ever, for less returns than ever.
Ben what about people that take a step back down the ladder after seeing what its like. I have done that.
I randomly met a middle manager stacking collecting trolleys in a supermarket, he took either early retirement or voluntary redundancy, said it was the best move he'd ever made, zero stress, zero responsibility, 9 to 5 (or whatever shifts) every week, no staying behind for hours to deal with issues, said he wished he'd done it years sooner
My part time job asked me about taking the supervisor job. No i don't want to wake up at 4 am on Saturday. No i don't want to stay till 10:30 pm. No i don't want to work 8 hours on Saturday and sunday
The job also knows i have a full-time job that runs monday to friday.
All for an extra dollar an hour.
I don't want a promotion because of the ineptitude of my co-workers.
I graduated from RMC Duntroon, and have years of experience in a leadership role in combat, but the reality is we give too many passes to useless people. I dont play that way, and it would end up in my firing for making someone cry.
I got offered a promotion because I was good at my job. I countered with a 3 month test promotion. Came with the pay rise but if i didnt enjoy it or wasnt good at being a supervisor, i'd return to the job I was good at. Over that 3 months I noticed that one girl would have been far better at the job. I stepped down and suggested she got it. Boss loved me after that.
I’m on the fence about the next promotion, because it comes with being so important that I can’t go on vacation near as much, nor in large chunks. I like taking month long vacations, but once you’re in such an important role, you can’t be MIA for a week, let alone a month.
It also came to a desire to start becoming part time as a form of early retirement, but again, in a upper mid to top level role can’t be done part time.
My old boss asked me a couple of times if I wanted to start managing teams….when I said no he smiled and said “you’ve got the best job in the company”…..he knew the score😂
Increased responsibility and workload, with an “opportunity” for enhanced remuneration at a later date - which rarely ever arrives.
Not only this, but also promotion often means that you are no longer eligible for overtime (management role), just time back in lieu - that you rarely ever get to take, and if you do it is noted and used against you when it comes to getting a pay rise.
I was an apprentice with a guy who never got promoted beyond a mid level technician role - the happiest most contented guy I know.
I work for a big telco. I have a colleague who started the same time as me. I went to a specialist role and focused on my technical skills, he went on the people manager path and became a team leader, then a department head. He is managing around 50 people now... His biggest problem is he still doing basically support desk agent work when there is a big escalation, he is sitting in calls with customers if needed for 10 hours while having to do all administration, attend all leadership meeting, deal with peoples problems, scheduling etc... Meanwhile he doesnt make more money than me.
As a senior solution architect I'm in the same wage band as him and I do get paid overtime if there is international call or something like that. He doesnt, he is expected to jump on a call to help his team and he cant put in overtime... So to be honest I really feel sorry for him, the amount of stress and workload he is experiencing doesnt really worth the honestly mediocre pay we get.
Quality of life is an important factor, but I think there's something else going on here that's a more recent development. We all know that wages haven't kept up with inflation in the last handful of years, and I think this really affects workers' mentalities, especially younger ones. Chasing "the good life" has almost become a fool's errand, because even if you get modest pay bumps, it doesn't feel like you can make much, if any, progress toward your financial goals (including buying a home).
You might think that declining purchasing power would prompt people to seek more money, and to a certain extent, it probably does. But I think that theory breaks down at some point -- when no matter what you do, your financial goals keep getting further away b/c inflation has taken a forever-chunk of value out of the currency and -- in particular -- housing prices keep skyrocketing.
Some years ago, the median house cost about 3x the median annual salary. Recently, it's closer to 5-7x. When you take into account the fact that price increases on stuff operate off percentage increases, and since wages didn't rise with inflation when it was really high, the gap between wages and the prices of stuff will continue to widen over time. It's quite literally the case that the longer you wait to, say, buy a house, the further behind you're getting.
So, in sum, hopelessness could be a factor here. People don't see the point of climbing the ladder -- sacrificing their time and quality of life -- for goals that will only continue to get further away.
44 years old, did the working my way up thing when I was younger. Spent most of my life stressed AF because of it. Gen Z are doing it right. Have a McJob and a side hustle. I now do 40 hours @ min wage and save my energy for living my life or working for myself on the side.
The problem you get is the people who are working their way up in businesses now are the ones that want the status and aren't necessarily suited to the job. In my last job (which I loved) our boss got moved sideways, he came to me and asked my if I wanted to apply. Nope, don't need the stress of it, and I didn't need to be the stress of working for the other person who could apply.
I don't mind a promotion, but I don't want management. And unfortunately, there is a ceiling where if you don't take a management position, you can't get promoted further. I'm as high as I can go in my department without taking on a management role and that would be a disaster for me and the company.
It came up in part with people not getting paid enough to cover the extra but I'm surprised people didn't mention that actually applying for the same job as the promotion elsewhere usually pays better. Similarly, in getting promoted, you know that they'd pay an external more than you're going to get. They always quote that policy says they can only pay you a maximum % more for a promotion but it absolutely makes you feel like they only care about the bottom line and one of the reasons for promoting you (even if not the main one) is because it's cheaper than recruiting.
I have accepted one promotion and turned down one promotion. One was for a role I wanted and was already working at and got me a pay bump, the other was a role I really didn't want to do (external client facing) so I already know I'm also 50/50 on whether I'd accept.
i requested a demotion in November, was granted and kept my salary zo can't complain honestly. 😂🤣
My son has turned down a promotion. More base salary but no overtime equals no pay rise. My son-in-law has also refused. It's the minimum wage rises, I think - differentials have been seriously eroded.
If the employer is being shortsighted on it, take advantage. Sure, it can work out to less per hour, but do it for 3-6 months, stick that extra experience on your CV, and increase your usual asking price to what you *should* be paid on the promotion. Purely playing Devil's Advocate here - I'd be damned if I took a promotion when where I am now!
And they did out your current pay and then lowball you
I turned down a promotion at work, because they essentially said my work load would double and they couldn't guarantee what hours I would work, as in my hours would be random all the time.
What is missing is that many jobs these days are totally unfulfilling. The're no commiunity, no purpose. They're desk bound with little variety
Mental health is low not because of "work". It is becuase of today's work.
"We'd like to give you a promotion."
"Interesting. Which of my current duties will be taken on by someone else?"
"Beg your pardon????"
At my workplace the managers are used and abused massively.
-Managers make 20% less than I do.
-They're salary and oh boy does that get abused (many unpaid work hours)
-Basically always on call without additional pay
-Their work load is infeasible. Especially because of how often they're trapped in pointless meetings with upper management who seem to have nothing better to do (I'm in these meetings a lot due to my role)
There's just so many downsides and no upsides I can see other than some tiny impossible promise of a path upwards. It's so abusive and I won't subject myself to that ever. Not at this place and probably not at any other.
Needs to pay enough, if it doesn’t the juice ain’t worth the squeeze
The same reason "no one wants to work" pay/effort So many promotions are actually downgrades these numbers do not surprise me
I'm a software engineer and I changed from working in lead positions back to non-lead positions. Despite this been quite a large drop in wage I'd had enough of the constant unreasonable demands from above and below and the politics was ridiculous. I went back to what I enjoy - actual software development - with almost no stress.
We're in our 50s my husband has been with the same company since ge left school. At one point he was a director with a company car. He wasn't right for him, now he is a manager and works four days a week, I don't think its a generaional thing but I think the workplace ethos has evolved from the idea that you need to constantly move up the ladder to valuing a better work/ life balance.
The old way: here's your regular wage increase for inflation... Oh, you're doing a good job. Want to take a promotion that puts you in a higher pay scale and comes with new benefits, and we will ant to keep you longer in case of layoffs or cost cutting.
The new way: well, we've given you pay raises for the last five years - you now make what we pay our people in a higher position. Take this promotion while doing your old work duties also, or you are fired.
Realize you no longer have a career with one company. Companies view workers as a liability and look for the cheapest labor to boost profits. Modern workers don't expect to be trained, and if they don't move to a new job within 2 years (how they get a pay raise) they expect to be fired - and they're not wrong. How many austerity rounds have we gone through in the last five decades where the companies line their pockets with the recovery rather than undo austerity measures.
Also, companies are idiots - they think anyone with half a beain can manage people. It is actually a difficult skill combining logistics, psychology, sociology, and business intellegence at a minimum.
Another way to look at it: old promotions were about putting a person in a new higher skilled role to help the company thrive, new promotions are about job position consolidation (if you do the job of two people, the company will give you 10-30% the wages of the job position they are making you take over without relieving you of your old job).
So, would I rake a promotion? Not really, because what they offer aren't really promotions but labor cost cutting to make the owners even richer.
I think in general, we see now how vulnerable a job can be, so putting all your eggs in one basket, which is inevitable when your job expects so much from you, is not a practical thing to do. We'd rather have that one reliable ok job and then find another way to earn on the side - can be the way to go.
Recently, a friend turned down a promotion to regional supervisor. The new position involved a travelling, no fuel allowance, for a whole 5 pence an hour increase! 🤔