Joe - I just saw this video, but haven't read any of the comments below (don't really have time...). I'm an old soundman from the 1980s - late 2000s. I have worked with Ratt, Poison, Badlands, Billy Ray Cyrus, several churches, and many Christian outdoor concerts and rallies. If someone below has already brought up this subject, then please forgive me for the repetition. But all that pink noise is for is setting up the room/venue /stadium, etc so that when you have the main tone controls on your main mixing console set flat at zero, you are actually hearing the flat zero mark, and can thus adjust the tone of each channel plus or minus accordingly. The way this is done is by using a spectrum analyzer with its input device (sometimes a microphone-looking device) set as close to the exact center of the room/venue/stadium /etc as possible. Now, play your pink/white-noise generator as loud as you stand it, or so there is no clipping, and make sure each of the tone settings for all the channels on your soundboard are set to 0. Now, looking at your spectrum analyzer, start adjusting your main outputs graphic equalizers until the spectrum analyzer is zeroed out for each channel. Do this same process for mono, stereo, quadraphonic (not used much anymore), or even surround. It has nothing to do with adjusting the sound to the analyzer, but adjusting the analyzer to the room using white (or pink) noise - - usually I used both; so that when you have any channel on your soundboard set to "zero", that channel is actually set flat, and you can diminish or boost your tone controls from that point. Hope this made sense, and that it helps. - - And always remember: no two rooms, venues, stadiums or etc will ever be exactly the same; so ALWAYS adjust for the room, then adjust the tonality to make your mix the KING of all mixes!
I think Joe Guilder didn't want to use pink noise by the way it works. He just wanted to point out that other method of other guy of other video doesn't work :D
Not to be mean to joe or anybody that hasn't been to school for this but what Michael just explained was Audio Engineering 101 for an acoustic aspect which is what the pink or white noise is for. Mixing music is still an ear experience thing
I understand what you are saying Joe, but I think you've missed to point about what the pink noise balancing technique is trying to achieve. First off its a starting point. Its not supposed to be a" mix", and if you want to turn up the guitars from that starting point go ahead, but at least you now KNOW that you are going past the pink noise curve with that element. Second, If too many elements are past that pink noise line, your track is going to skew to bright and ice picky. Third, If you have too many elements BELOW the pink noise line your track is going to skew dark. OF COURSE nobody wants some completely equilateral mix where nothing important is emphasized. The problem though is you could in theory have a mix that emphasizes the guitars, but overall is too bright and high -endy. You could have a mix that emphasizes the guitars but is too dark and rolled off. If you talk to ANY mastering engineer, they get mixes all the time where the elements are all balanced well relative to each other but the spectral balance is skewed dark or bright one way or another and they have to correct it. Too many elements below the pink noise curve = dark. Too many elements above the curve=bright. If you use pink noise as a "check" you are ensuring that your mix isn't skewed, and if you do decide to feature certain elements or make certain elements less present, it at least gives you an idea on how far it can push it. It can also be useful to turn on pink noise in sparse portions of the track where there aren't enough elements to properly balancing things against. Its not a new technique. Ozone includes an option to compare your mix to a pink noise curve FOR A REASON. Bob Clearmountain was the one who pioneered this technique back in the day. He used to ensure that "nothing was poking out to much", or conversely that nothing is overall is asserting itself so little that it can't be heard on most systems. You probably have a good idea based on experience how far you can push elements before they become a problem in mastering, but it also probably took you a great deal of trial and error for you to get there. This technique creates the opportunity to take a little bit of the guesswork out of it. Thats it!
Good stuff. I understand the idea of using it to check mixes, but the original video I mentioned (and lots of people who talk about using pink noise) talk about it as a magic pill to set levels for a mix. And it's clearly not. I'm sure there's a use for pink noise, but not in the way some people are describing it.
I used this method on 4 songs today, and I thought It was great. BUT I actually eq'ed the tracks first then I used a little common sense as to what was a bit too loud and made adjustments. The mixes were crystal clear and clean. I will use it on the other songs as well. If it works I'll continue to use this technique. YOUR VIDEOS ARE GREAT. KEEP 'EM COMING. THX
I don't use the actual pink noise thing but after I've done a rough mix by ear I will check with the spectrum analyzer if it resembles a pinknoisy (balanced) spectrum, or if there is too much of some frecuencies or too little of some. Because when mixing my ears get used to the lack of some frequencies so I don't realize they don't exist. This helps me translate my mixes better to all kinds of speakers. This is something a better mixer would probably hear instantly (And I do hear it pretty good now actually) but doing this has helped me to get the ear for a balanced mix. It's not a strict rule for me but more like a tool to be used to make sure I don't make major mistakes.
Actually it doesn´t. Jyry the "mixing with pink noise"-method will NOT result in a mix with balanced frequency spectrum that resembles pink noise! It only lead to a mix with more or less equally loud tracks.
Herb Felho uhmm did I say that it would do that? I said I don't use the pink noise thing at all but check my mixes with a spectrum analyzer to make sure they resemble a balanced frequency spectrum.
I like to use a spectrum analyzer as well as my ears. I have also been known to listen to a mix with my back turned to the speakers, invert the stereo image, anything really that can give me a slightly different perspective on the mix.
i often use a spectrum analyzer to set the level of my kick and snare, just because if i have a paticularly boomy kick i cant always tell how loud it actually is unless i turn my 8inch monitors up to a decent level, and sometimes i mix late at night so its a good way of checking for me.
Pink Noise Mixing helps me set a baseline for the tracks. But I don't use it as a be-all-end-all. After doing PNM, I apply my own settings but keeping in mind to stay within the baseline.
The way you express your views with words you choose makes me wanna watch your videos. Its like whatever you speak is important and is going to be in mid term tests!
I remember inquiring about this a few months ago, and really wanted your professional's take. I think a lot of us lose sight on the art of mixing. Thanks for all you do
Amen, Joe! The biggest problem with the white noise is even IF you EQ and compress everything, you end up with a mix that lacks depth. Mixing isn't about hearing every track, it's about hearing what's important and FEELING the track as a whole. This comment is more for the newbies than for you, Joe. Obviously you know this stuff. A better trick is to mix in mono and use a reference track. Also, IF you use a spectrometer, then use it to determine whether you've cut enough mud out of your mix compared to your reference. Happy mixing everyone!
first time I tried it I got a decent result. Next time I tried to make a video tutorial at the same time and felt like I was getting a migraine before even getting through all the tracks. Definitely not a good technique for me.
It's a Magic Pill for those who don't have room space and high-end gear like you Joe. I would enjoy mixing a song for days if I had a studio like yours.
If you're in an imperfect room (hotel, office space, etc), with budget equipment (laptop), and mixing with headphones or so-so speakers, setting levels with pink noise is great to start a mix. It helps to get rough mixes faster. Then you adjust to taste later. It isn't a hard rule to stay to the pink noise curve, it just gets you in an appropriate range in faster time.
Thanks for testing this for us, I don't want to do it either but it can be a good way to test final mixes when in doubt! The white noise sounds brighter because of the way the human ear perceives loudness across the spectrum as explained by the equal-loudness contour.
I just don't understand how this method can work, If I'm making a Hip Hop beat or something, with some piano chords, a bassline, and some strings for example, I don't want those three things at the same level, in fact in every genre of music I make I want hardly any of my instruments/synths at the same level
Vandalle white noise = same level Pink noise = not same level Watch the video again 😎 Make the tracks sound the way you want and how you imagine them to sound then use the pink noise to balance. Then again in the mastering process use the pink noise again if you need. You will develop an ear for this eventually. It's automation you can't use with pink noise but after balance for dynamics, you're the painter here 😉 Just my 2 cent... Remember it's just a tool as any...
Exactly.....it's best used as a reference and use an EQ matching to a complete song, it will shave and boost things that someone wouldn't even considered.
I could barely even hear the lead vocal on the Pink Noise version. Sounds like it’s a safe bet to consign this “pink noise mixing” woo to the same dustbin as the likes of “A 432 Hz.” Thanks for debunking that one, Joe. I salute you!
I have used this technique with SOME success, but I did it a little differently. First, I did all my EQ, compression, etc. (even reverbs and delays) BEFORE using the pink noise. Second, I just used this as a tool, not expecting it would take me to the final result in my mix. Lots of tweaking went on afterwards. So what I was doing was, as you put it, using my inate musicianship. This pink noise system was just a tool in the process. It can be a help in that way.
thank you for making this video. I saw another youtuber doing this, that person made it so confusing and she started selling pink noise track for 10 dollar whch made it even more confusing... now im good. My mix is ready! Thank you.
Joe, I'am also a guitarist, producer, composer, mixing & Mastering engineer for the past 39 years. I was also an A&R guy in EMI Malaysia back in the 90's. I luv doing mixing & mastering just like U. I think this pink noise reference mix can only be usefull at mastering stage as a guide, but not to really depends on it....Anyway I like all ur videos about mixing....keep it up
This actually works. I've used this technique before and would use it now, but I'm not mixing much atm. And it was for rock. I compared vs NS10's, and my mixes came out almost identical just using a fader mix. It almost replaces the need for NS10's. The trick is to use the track trims to set it, so the faders stay flat, somewhere under unity. This gives you a base. Then you make changes where necessary. This could maybe not work too well if your raw tracks suck. You might need to shape some things beforehand, and maybe go back and forth bit. This definitely helps with consistency if anything... and a crap system... and a crap room etc. Especially for someone starting out, it can also help someone identify obvious issues and what needs to be worked on. Of course this isn't gonna fix automation for things like mixing for emotion etc. It's isn't totally cool proof. It's meant to be a base. After a while, you stay figuring out what needs to be done to fix things things and makes mixing more predictable.
It has some uses thou. The main idea is to create a quick base line to work with. It helps a lot when you have to mix/master several tracks for an album so you have a common flat ground to start with. Pink/white noise mixing is mostly used for live music, it helps you quantize the whole place to create a "zero-flat ground" so you can even out the sound spread. I've personally used it to test resonances, leveling amps and testing feedback problems.
Works perfectly if you just use type beats from RUclips , you only have two things to worry about , vocals and the beat ,(not including reverb or delay balancing) but if you have your vocals sounding the way you want them just use the pink noise to get the balance between the beat and your vocals. EASY. Wish I found pink noise sooner.
I am glad you tried it Joe, I have tried it a few times, I used it as a starting point as my static mix prior to EQ, compression etc. As you stated it gets annoying listening to the pink noise real fast.
Personally i use pink noise A LOT but not fo levelling but in eqing instruments ... i use sometimes a match eq with pink noise with sidorted guitar and either mix it by 10-20 % in Izotope Ozone OR i make it totally flat and shape soudn sound afterwards with a second eq, that is useful to get rid of nasal parts or harsh parts of the sound and you have a even startingpoint for further eqing ... on the pass i take red noise sometimes ... and with the hofa tilt eq you can also shape everything then to fit in the mix
Now THAT is a useful tip. It's fairly easy for me to hear which frequencies I need to get RID of, but much harder to hear which frequencies I might want to add. I can hear peaks better than holes in the frequencies. I never thought of using a match EQ against a pink noise reference to fill in missing frequencies to create sort of a "flat baseline" starting point, then adding an eq after that for desired shaping. That is brilliant. @Joe Gilder now that would be a useful tutorial. Maybe I'll do one... Aside from that brilliant idea, I use pink noise for mainly 2 things: 1- Tuning a room. Just as @Michael Donehoo mentioned. Play pink noise while viewing frequencies coming into an RTA to identify and fix peaks and holes in the room. 2- Calibrating your monitors to your mixing level. I LOVE that broadcast TV has set a legal standard for audio reference levels of -24 LKFS (look up LKFS loudness and the CALM act) - tons of headroom for a lively mix that has energy and life and even web outlets like iTunes are starting to enforce a standard of somewhere around -16 LKFS loudness which is a good thing. So play pink noise at -20 for general mixing, or -24 for broadcast TV mixing. Play the noise through 1 speaker at a time and then use a SPL meter to set the speaker level to around 83 dB (79 to 85 depending on room size, smaller to larger), which is the ear's preferred natural level for mixing. After that, you just mix by ear and it magically turns out at the right level. Links for more info: www.playdotsound.com/portfolio-item/keep-it-calibrated-learn-how-and-why-you-should-calibrate-your-studio-monitors/ www.soundonsound.com/techniques/establishing-project-studio-reference-monitoring-levels www.fcc.gov/media/policy/loud-commercials www.provideocoalition.com/how-many-lufs-for-ideal-audio-loudness-why-cant-we-be-friends/
Hi! Good video! Quick correction, the next octave of a frequency is double of that one, for example E0 is 41hz approx, E1 is 82hz, E2 164hz... and goes like that
You're so Right, Joe. There's so many Kiddies out there, whose just do stuff they've learned from RUclips tutorials instead of doing things because of their own experiences they made. There's no talent needed to mix like that. Doing music is kind of art process nothing you can create with with pink noise or artiffical intelligence.
Just to share my personal experience on this, I do use this trick, not to mix, but only for gain staging part of session prep. I do a lot of field live recordings, the levels are not always in the ballpark, the pink noise helps a lot especially when you have a lot of tracks. I select the loudest parts of the song, I use the gain pot, not the fader, once set, then I start the actual mixing. As Joe hinted, bass-heavy and quick bright transients content can give a false indication, just keep this in mind, you will naturally compensate. Now, please if you can get the levels during recording, and then do gain stage without pink noise (if needed), that always feel better :)
It definitely helps if all you have is headphones.. I've just tried doing a mix and the majority of things lined up perfectly which then ponits you to the few ones that still need tweaking... When everything needs tweaking its a complete nightmare , so it definably helps!!
Thank you for spending the time and doing the experiment on this for us. I had my doubts about it and you confirmed my suspicion. I will continue to mix and master using my EARS! Thanks.
Nice vid. I use pink noise for my music. then i add/subtrack volumes which require attention. it gives me more headroom. I enjoyed your track by the way. thanks!
Man such an insightful video on mixing with pink noise, definitely going to subscribe. Also that goes to show you shouldn't believe in everything that someone tells you and at the end of the day to try it for yourself and see if it works for you.
Try this instead. Since in Voxengo Span, pink noise is the same as flat eq curve (at a 'slope' setting of 3). Just solo each element, bringing their level up until the loudest part of the frequency spectrum of said solo'd sound hits a nominal average level (do this in 'AVG' mode at the top right of Span). Achieves the same thing much faster and without having to listen to grating pink noise. It's still useless of course, because sounds with a high average loudness will be turned down relative to quick transient material. Any short clicky sound will thus be way to loud in the mix
I really liked that mix. If you release that, I would add it to my playlist. Those guitars can fill the atmosphere/background. Pink noise mixing might make some sounds disappear but I love it
Thank you, I'm so glad you took the time to try this, I've been messing around with electronica stuff for around 30+ years, just a hobby to keep me sane. I tried this approach on my style of sound and it just sounded like a weak generic radio-friendly mess, I was starting to think it was just me until I found this upload. ~ subscribed, and still using ears!
Doing this before FX and EQ is certainly different than after. That said...why would you want a "perfect" blend? If a song needs more drive... you crank the appropriate tracks (drums??). So... this is like a science experiment....nothing to do with mixing. \
Using this curve is a great contour for loudness in mastering. Like you said, when you've created a full mix. Doing it beforehand just simply doen't make sense. Like other peeps said as well: it's not what it's for.
@Joe Gilder • Home Studio Corner What i found works better is to do an overall quick mix and adjust the effects on every single track before doing this. And the first step is to identify the sound that is the most defining of the track you're mixing (for example: kick drum for rap or rnb music) and you start there. Instead of just making sure every sound gets below the pinknoise, you adjust in accordance to the level you set your first track at . You do this through out every track. The pink noise is no longer serving as a guide but as a reference. I guaranty you the results are pretty impressive!
Level balancing done like this sounds more like a "mathematical / deterministic" activity than a "creative / subjective" one. As you said in another video, you are done doing level balancing when you feel like music is connected with you in some way. That's the beauty of what we do.
Hmm, when i tried this i leveled by having the most important elements actually be louder than the pink noise, kind of using pink noise as a point of reference for loudness, rather than a mask. I dont use it anymore tbh. But was a neat trick for dense mixes.
The pink is for specific kind of music and i could hear that. the mix is perfect with the pink by genre but your own genre has its own perfect mixing style. Its like mixing one song for rock and the same song for pop with minor changes, if you get what im trying to say.
The only part where it works for me is comparing the master track's spectrum meter to the curve of the pink noise, that's really helping in finding a good balance even in a bad sounding room, or on headphones.
Great video. when I mix, I feel certain things should be slightly louder in the mix like the lead vocals, kick and bass so in my head this way of mixing wouldn't work which is why I've never bothered trying it. It was great seeing it actually done and hearing the result. Thanks for taking the time Joe
I like using it as a starting point...often if the client is asking for something there and then. takes 5 mins and gets the point across. Agree with the mono stuff too as it shows the overlaps.
I think that if this would work, that'd mean we don't need people mixing tracks anymore, this could be very well automated. It might be perfectly balanced, but as you said - it's not tasteful, which is an intended disbalance. I think this could work as a starting point to do your mixing from onwards - you start with a perfectly even balance, then you decide how to break it to tell your story. That was sure an interesting watch though :)
Hi everyone... I use the Pinknoise for my "Ear-Clear-Reset" thing. I really like the idea of balancing the mix to the Pinknoise. Maybe I'll try this thing but more like Main-Vocals to the Band-Track or to Master the MainTrack to the Pinknoise. BUT BIIIIG Thanks for this video...
I use Pink Noise mixing as a starting point. Then lower or raise volumes afterwards if something is too loud or not loud enough. I believe I am getting better mixes than when I used to 'just' trust my ears to mix.
i use to do balance with pink noise by hearing, i too did not satisfied with mix, but i enjoyed my mix with pink noise, doing with muted master output and by watching pink noise signal in equalizer and desired channel equalizer matching with pink noise ... personally i saw great mix by using pink noise.
Pink noise secret balance seems to be in leveling subgroups on the last stage, with and without a limiter showing the lufs goal you want to reach (weird) / when you do not have a treated room I think its the best way to get a well balanced mix
Mixing is not a static event. It's dynamic with moving up and down faders and stuff; switching on and off FX.... doing something wild and out of the box. But for a basic mix start setup this method might be a good thing for those with little to no experience
What I've taken to doing recently is using this technique for a gain staging pass - I'll do this process very quickly, then put a gain trim plugin on each channel to bump that level to 0dB on the faders. I find that, after doing that, when I get into doing a proper mix, my intuitions about what I want to stand out or sit back are a bit easier to turn into reality.
I can definitely see your thoughts as to the limitations here. My question then becomes this. For a beginner to have a reference to start mixing, do you see this a place to start with mixing?
I've started using it and I find that after using pink noise to get basic levels, adjusting other elements like tamb and rim shots etc that I want to sit back in the mix works well for me... I just use it as a way to kibd of get a ballance between bass/kick, snares/claps hats etc.. Like the main elements that I want to carry the track, then adjust the bits in between... As in... If i do the pink noise initial ballance, and an element is poking out i turn in down and vice versa.. So far, when I have done this and run it through ozone master assistant, any eq adjustments made by ozone has been within 3db
Actually, I tried it recently and had a pretty good result which I tweaked a little here and there. Prior to trying it I just couldn't get the acoustic guitar or the snare drum side stick to sit in the mix correctly. After I tried the pink noise thingy, everything just sit together a bit better and helped me to find the levels I couldn't quite decide on previously. Two things: 1. I tried the pink noise AFTER I had done the EQing and some processing to make the instruments roughly occupy their own relative space. 2. I didn't accept the result as absolute but rather as a starting point after which, again, I made various tweaks. Honestly, I was a bit surprised how everything came together and how it helped me to decide on some of the relative volumes of the instruments. Though I am still working on the mix, I am finding that all the instruments are being heard individually and collectively and cohesively. Oh well, just my two cents. Thanks for the video.
White noise doesn't sound brighter because there's "more frequencies" between 1k-2k than there are between 100-200hz. That's like saying there are more numbers between 1 and 2 than there are between 2 and 3. There's an equally infinite number of places you could pinpoint as "a frequency" between those two points, whether you're talking analogue or digital. There's no limit to how many decimal places you can put after 65.001 Hz and it will end up being a different frequency to 65hz. White noise sounds brighter than Pink noise because pink noise is equal energy per octave and bass/low frequencies have a lot more energy for the same amplitude. This means that, in order to match the same amount of energy in the 1-2k octave as there is in the 100-200hz region, you need your 1-2k frequencies to have a lower amplitude (quieter). This results in Pink noise being skewed towards the bass frequencies having a higher volume.
Totally agree. Your simple, correct explanation, is why you can hear bass frequencies outside of gigs and clubs, but very little or no treble. Joe's explanation is founded on the idea that frequencies are quantised into integer packets. Both experience and some high school science shows they're continuous and infinitely divisible. Might not be what he meant, but us was a misleading explanation.
Could probably have a more unified sound if you have a pinknoise source trough the mic input eq to main pinknoise level before you capture, then bring it to pnkns-level for all?
You don't need the noise - just hold the FFT guide over the track and look for humps. Then you can work on those humps by figuring out what is creating the hump, and using tactical work - EQ's, multiband EQ or multiband compression. I typically do this at the end, but I don't worry over it so much that I'm absolutely flattening everything.
Joe Gilder: Great example - if you do a reference on the album "Grace Street" by the band Big Wreck, you'll find that it doesn't obey the idea of flattening along the FFT line. It's pretty lumpy. The stylistic choice there was to have round, fluffy low-mids. And the album wouldn't sound as good if it was flattened.
You seem to be evaluating this as a method for getting a proper mix, but I don't think that was the intention. When I'm composing a song, I have to do rough mixes multiple times as I change and add elements. My ears can be fatigued by the time I get to that point because I've probably been looping parts of the song for long periods of time. This trick is perfect for getting a quick, rough balance at that stage of music making. I wouldn't use this when it's time to mix the track for real, but the other walkthrough I watched made it pretty clear this was just for a rough mix
Exactly right. It's a shortcut to getting your mix to a good place to start, especially if you don't have a pro studio and top end monitors. Unfortunately it seems to be treated as a solution, which is not what the OP proposed.
I’d never use this technique but after I’ve generally finished composition (and gain staging while doing so due to the actual musicality of mixing because it is as much an instrument as any other) I always check to see if my mixes will hit the limiter correctly with the right spectral balance before compression and eq and then after compression and eq and it always produces a loud and boomy master with nice stereo width in electronic genres where the signal is very loud
I agree. How about using it as a reference for mastering? For example when using multi-compressors? Just as reference and if it dont work then oh well.
So this has intrigued me for years.How people get great mixes.The one thing i did was at the time I was using analog was I put an eq in line with my output. Used a RTA and lined up all my frequencies in my mix .So that everything was flat.I got mixes that would hit you in the chess and where unreal.Ever since I went digital its wonderful but I can't figure out how to use an external EQ and RTA with it.
White noise sounding bright has nothing to do with having "a higher number of frequencies up there"; rather, it's about the fact that the energy of a single sine wave rises with its frequency when its amplitude is kept constant. Pink noise can essentially be manufactured by simply EQ-ing white noise in a way that compensates for this frequency-to-energy relationship.
Hey joe . Just came across this pink noise mixing technique. I tried it . And instead of bringing the level up to the pink noise . Just capture the curve and turn off the generator and bring up the tracks to the curve . If u would like to try it and give your views .
Hey Joe, I actually tried it on my mixes and got really good starting point for mixing. It actually taught me to carefully listen to each instrument and as whole in a balanced way. I do gospel music and this worked out for me. I know it won't for genres as I was told. Thanks for trying though. We still love your tutorials.
Tunnel Vision that’s why I’m intrigued by it. Mixing still looks like voodoo to me lol. It would be nice to have an efficient way to get a really good starting place. I find if I just start tweaking stuff it’s just sort of mindlessly groping my way through and not really sure if I’m actually objective,y improving the material or not. I’ll be glad when I get a hold on this stuff. It all just seems so foreign.
Pink noise is actually used to test out how much noise is picked up by a microphone when setting up the gain on the mics for a live venue. Pink noise is generated loud enough to the point the microphone can sense/pick-up the sound because the Pink Noise is meant to mimic real noise. For mixing...similar use but different principle. Mixing engineers are actually using it as a way to check to see if something is poking out too far when the sounds of the other tracks are too dynamic. I don't know how many are actually doing this or how common it is because no one really talks about it often. I use it all the time to check for transients and outlier signals that don't align to the natural crest factor of the song. In other words, I use Pink Noise to hide my song and I listen for sounds that poke out that shouldn't.
I dont think the idea is to, do it then just think your done, i think its a great way to get all the levels organized. You do it. (So its in the ball park) mix normally again , then again ...add to your tools of mixing!
Sory bro i keep first voice level at -6 db n mix,generally nevee use pink nouse method,,, but ,, how to start with pink noise will it wrk in levels??? Is it we have pull down the db??
I can see this working for mixing only certain tracks that should be at the same level. For example, those background vocals sounds really good together after you mixed them with this method and you soloed them. If you were mixing a choir or an orchestra, I could see this being an effective method to mix 14 violins or something. But I don't see this being effective on an entire mix. Great video! Thanks for all you do.
that is a cool trick for finding balances in a cluttered mix or balancing groups of instruments like lo synths and pads - orchestral sounds , percussion etc when in doubt. for a whole mix if you are aiming for that "mastered" sound you need to target higher rms values so the pink noise needs to be hot.. mono and dim are your friends here. also in modern music lo's and hi's are hyped so eq'ing that monitor bus with lo and hi cuts is also helpfull getting that mid range "meat" just right. zero in the freq range you need to adress and work that balance out . if i use it i almost never balance the 3 most important tracks of the mix . i do it by ear . if i do try to balance them in , i make sure they pop clear over that pink noise . some times it works , sometimes not
I believe that the actual reason why we hear white noise brighter (as in "with more high frequencies") is because of the sensitivity of our ears. It is contemplated in the Fletcher-Munson curves.
i don't speak english very well but i will try to ask this. What if you use the pink noise without hearing it and just hearing the remaining sound of the guitar (or any instrument) above the pink noise? i don't know if i'm asking this well but thanks for the video, i feel lucky that i found this information. Greetings from chile.
I'm wondering if it's a better approach to just keep in mind that a full mix's curve should look like pink noise. For instance if you're looking at the main output's curve and there's a dip or a bump at a certain frequency range, then something needs boosting or cutting at that frequency.
jeah.. you are right. as i view it.. the biggest problem is to be working on mixes without checking and continuously making A/B comparisons with Good produced Records of your genre. This together with a couple of Monitors (one of the at least with flat frequency response).. If you dont have the right monitors and the right reference Tracks.. Pink noise can be a good starting point and help to calibrate your ears. But I would put it this way.. 1. know the sound you are after by listening very often.. at any session to good produced Records. You need to recalibrate your ears each 10 Minutes otherwise if you listen to a harsh mix for a while you will loose Frequency feeling and even think it sounds good.. 2. Compare very often you mix to those records using flat response speakers that have enough Bass. Dont mix to loud. Set for you self a decent amount of volume that does not create ear fatige. 3. learn as much as you can about mixing and Mastering to be able to get where you want. Be aware that a mix sounds differen than a Master and why 4. Avoid using speakers with not Flat frequency response. If you monitoring system is non Flat or emphasizes Bass or/and high frequencies you (even if you know them very well) still are going to miss perfect calibration. That happen to me. And i spent lot of time trying to fix the non fixable... which on the other hand created lots of frustration. Try to avoid this as early as you can by getting those right Monitors and using reference Tracks and learning. I you dont have a good monitoring System.. at least use Painstackingly Good Reference Records... You can get pretty good resunlts with any speaker System by unsing reference Tracks or maybe additionally Pink noise. The Thing is... between "pretty good" and "the real thing" is a amall world as big as a good monitoring system.. Good Reference Tracks and you DAW set up in a way you can anytime make A/B comparisons. One thing more... when your mix or Master is ready its a good idea to compare it (again) with reference tracks... in a few different places: Phones.. in a concert Hall, in the Car, at home of your friends. You just will feel when a mix is ready.. It will be the Point when compared with released Tracks it has the same Fell, Vibe, Bass, Tonal balance and of course it still sounds good at high volume without annoying frequencies.. Thanks for that Video. I learnd a lot through you Videos Man.
Maybe if you did your mix and then brought the pink noise up slowly to see what the last tracks sticking out are? I dunno, it seems like it's the kind of idea that comes from someone who hasn't actually experimented and tried their idea to me.
This is similar to a thing I literally just did/tried last week, and helped in "film music" mix (animated), where I had to write all the music WITHOUT yet having the sound FX or "room atmosphere" sounds yet... Sort of similar to what mix engineers for film used to do, but playing a "popcorn" track--sounds which reproduced theater noise--so they could hear how their mixes sounded against "popcorn chewing" noise floor.
I tried the pink noise trick but I have trouble because I can always hear the track through the pink noise if it’s any louder than muted. I do think the trick was only intended as a quick starting point, though. You get everything level quickly with the pink noise and then make your musical decisions from there. I had better luck doing a similar approach with a LUFS meter. Get everything to an equal perceived volume and then tweak as needed.
What you need to do is leave the pink noise on with all the tracks peaking over the cloud. That way you get to hear the relative decibel relationships off all the tracks in relation to the pink noise colored by the room acoustics. The pink noise gives you an absolute reference point. All professionally made tracks punch through the pink with clarity. If you're tracks don't then you have more work to do. You also change how much of the sound peaks through the cloud by changing the volume of the pink noise, depending on what you are looking for.
static sounds already comes with the connection of your headphones.. question is if you can make a track/song that cancels out static sounds.. (like how noice cancelling headphones do from recorded ambient sounds)
Joe - I just saw this video, but haven't read any of the comments below (don't really have time...). I'm an old soundman from the 1980s - late 2000s. I have worked with Ratt, Poison, Badlands, Billy Ray Cyrus, several churches, and many Christian outdoor concerts and rallies.
If someone below has already brought up this subject, then please forgive me for the repetition. But all that pink noise is for is setting up the room/venue /stadium, etc so that when you have the main tone controls on your main mixing console set flat at zero, you are actually hearing the flat zero mark, and can thus adjust the tone of each channel plus or minus accordingly.
The way this is done is by using a spectrum analyzer with its input device (sometimes a microphone-looking device) set as close to the exact center of the room/venue/stadium /etc as possible. Now, play your pink/white-noise generator as loud as you stand it, or so there is no clipping, and make sure each of the tone settings for all the channels on your soundboard are set to 0. Now, looking at your spectrum analyzer, start adjusting your main outputs graphic equalizers until the spectrum analyzer is zeroed out for each channel. Do this same process for mono, stereo, quadraphonic (not used much anymore), or even surround.
It has nothing to do with adjusting the sound to the analyzer, but adjusting the analyzer to the room using white (or pink) noise - - usually I used both; so that when you have any channel on your soundboard set to "zero", that channel is actually set flat, and you can diminish or boost your tone controls from that point.
Hope this made sense, and that it helps. - - And always remember: no two rooms, venues, stadiums or etc will ever be exactly the same; so ALWAYS adjust for the room, then adjust the tonality to make your mix the KING of all mixes!
Nice!
Michael Donehoo Awesome!
That makes perfect sense... thanks for that!
I think Joe Guilder didn't want to use pink noise by the way it works. He just wanted to point out that other method of other guy of other video doesn't work :D
Not to be mean to joe or anybody that hasn't been to school for this but what Michael just explained was Audio Engineering 101 for an acoustic aspect which is what the pink or white noise is for. Mixing music is still an ear experience thing
I understand what you are saying Joe, but I think you've missed to point about what the pink noise balancing technique is trying to achieve. First off its a starting point. Its not supposed to be a" mix", and if you want to turn up the guitars from that starting point go ahead, but at least you now KNOW that you are going past the pink noise curve with that element. Second, If too many elements are past that pink noise line, your track is going to skew to bright and ice picky. Third, If you have too many elements BELOW the pink noise line your track is going to skew dark. OF COURSE nobody wants some completely equilateral mix where nothing important is emphasized. The problem though is you could in theory have a mix that emphasizes the guitars, but overall is too bright and high -endy. You could have a mix that emphasizes the guitars but is too dark and rolled off. If you talk to ANY mastering engineer, they get mixes all the time where the elements are all balanced well relative to each other but the spectral balance is skewed dark or bright one way or another and they have to correct it. Too many elements below the pink noise curve = dark. Too many elements above the curve=bright. If you use pink noise as a "check" you are ensuring that your mix isn't skewed, and if you do decide to feature certain elements or make certain elements less present, it at least gives you an idea on how far it can push it. It can also be useful to turn on pink noise in sparse portions of the track where there aren't enough elements to properly balancing things against. Its not a new technique. Ozone includes an option to compare your mix to a pink noise curve FOR A REASON. Bob Clearmountain was the one who pioneered this technique back in the day. He used to ensure that "nothing was poking out to much", or conversely that nothing is overall is asserting itself so little that it can't be heard on most systems. You probably have a good idea based on experience how far you can push elements before they become a problem in mastering, but it also probably took you a great deal of trial and error for you to get there. This technique creates the opportunity to take a little bit of the guesswork out of it. Thats it!
Good stuff. I understand the idea of using it to check mixes, but the original video I mentioned (and lots of people who talk about using pink noise) talk about it as a magic pill to set levels for a mix. And it's clearly not. I'm sure there's a use for pink noise, but not in the way some people are describing it.
Thanks for this comment. Now I know how to use pink noise in more relevant ways.
awesome comment
Using pink noise is a good starting point. After you’re done it’s good to then use your ears to play with anything else
I agree. It can also be a good way to regain some perspective if you've been mixing a song for a while.
Use groups then this
I like using pink noise to help “reset” the ears.
You make a great case for living by the ocean...
Good idea I shall try this, if I dare muwhaha!! no, but really tho
Me too
ha hai do same
I used this method on 4 songs today, and I thought It was great. BUT I actually eq'ed the tracks first then I used a little common sense as to what was a bit too loud and made adjustments. The mixes were crystal clear and clean. I will use it on the other songs as well. If it works I'll continue to use this technique. YOUR VIDEOS ARE GREAT. KEEP 'EM COMING. THX
jimmy twotones Same here I’m getting some interesting results from using this
@@BraddersMusic funny how i make music for years and i NEVER heard of this before i saw this video.
I don't use the actual pink noise thing but after I've done a rough mix by ear I will check with the spectrum analyzer if it resembles a pinknoisy (balanced) spectrum, or if there is too much of some frecuencies or too little of some. Because when mixing my ears get used to the lack of some frequencies so I don't realize they don't exist. This helps me translate my mixes better to all kinds of speakers.
This is something a better mixer would probably hear instantly (And I do hear it pretty good now actually) but doing this has helped me to get the ear for a balanced mix. It's not a strict rule for me but more like a tool to be used to make sure I don't make major mistakes.
That makes sense
Actually it doesn´t. Jyry the "mixing with pink noise"-method will NOT result in a mix with balanced frequency spectrum that resembles pink noise! It only lead to a mix with more or less equally loud tracks.
Herb Felho uhmm did I say that it would do that? I said I don't use the pink noise thing at all but check my mixes with a spectrum analyzer to make sure they resemble a balanced frequency spectrum.
I like to use a spectrum analyzer as well as my ears. I have also been known to listen to a mix with my back turned to the speakers, invert the stereo image, anything really that can give me a slightly different perspective on the mix.
i often use a spectrum analyzer to set the level of my kick and snare, just because if i have a paticularly boomy kick i cant always tell how loud it actually is unless i turn my 8inch monitors up to a decent level, and sometimes i mix late at night so its a good way of checking for me.
Pink Noise Mixing helps me set a baseline for the tracks. But I don't use it as a be-all-end-all. After doing PNM, I apply my own settings but keeping in mind to stay within the baseline.
The way you express your views with words you choose makes me wanna watch your videos. Its like whatever you speak is important and is going to be in mid term tests!
I remember inquiring about this a few months ago, and really wanted your professional's take. I think a lot of us lose sight on the art of mixing. Thanks for all you do
Hey, if it actually proved to be a shortcut, I would admit it........but it didn't. 😊
Amen, Joe! The biggest problem with the white noise is even IF you EQ and compress everything, you end up with a mix that lacks depth. Mixing isn't about hearing every track, it's about hearing what's important and FEELING the track as a whole.
This comment is more for the newbies than for you, Joe. Obviously you know this stuff.
A better trick is to mix in mono and use a reference track. Also, IF you use a spectrometer, then use it to determine whether you've cut enough mud out of your mix compared to your reference. Happy mixing everyone!
👍
first time I tried it I got a decent result. Next time I tried to make a video tutorial at the same time and felt like I was getting a migraine before even getting through all the tracks. Definitely not a good technique for me.
Seriously. It took me to a dark place. 😊
Hi, nice video, but you should show us pictures about the noises, when you talkin about them. It would be helpful.
type Pink into the fx browser to find JS Pink Noise Generator
Oh fancy seeing you here!
It's nice to see you here Jon
It's a Magic Pill for those who don't have room space and high-end gear like you Joe. I would enjoy mixing a song for days if I had a studio like yours.
If you're in an imperfect room (hotel, office space, etc), with budget equipment (laptop), and mixing with headphones or so-so speakers, setting levels with pink noise is great to start a mix. It helps to get rough mixes faster. Then you adjust to taste later. It isn't a hard rule to stay to the pink noise curve, it just gets you in an appropriate range in faster time.
Thanks for testing this for us, I don't want to do it either but it can be a good way to test final mixes when in doubt!
The white noise sounds brighter because of the way the human ear perceives loudness across the spectrum as explained by the equal-loudness contour.
Just run an air conditioner in background
All the pink noise you need
😂😂😂
that was funny
:DDDDDDDDDD
Would have been more interesting to hear a complete eq'd mix "rebalanced" with pink noise than just the raw tracks
Yeah, it seems like he really tried to make this method look as bad as possible
I just don't understand how this method can work, If I'm making a Hip Hop beat or something, with some piano chords, a bassline, and some strings for example, I don't want those three things at the same level, in fact in every genre of music I make I want hardly any of my instruments/synths at the same level
Vandalle white noise = same level
Pink noise = not same level
Watch the video again 😎
Make the tracks sound the way you want and how you imagine them to sound then use the pink noise to balance. Then again in the mastering process use the pink noise again if you need. You will develop an ear for this eventually. It's automation you can't use with pink noise but after balance for dynamics, you're the painter here 😉
Just my 2 cent...
Remember it's just a tool as any...
i think the ending outro faded into the properly mixed version (or maybe that also was mastered with compression)
Exactly.....it's best used as a reference and use an EQ matching to a complete song, it will shave and boost things that someone wouldn't even considered.
I could barely even hear the lead vocal on the Pink Noise version. Sounds like it’s a safe bet to consign this “pink noise mixing” woo to the same dustbin as the likes of “A 432 Hz.” Thanks for debunking that one, Joe. I salute you!
I have used this technique with SOME success, but I did it a little differently. First, I did all my EQ, compression, etc. (even reverbs and delays) BEFORE using the pink noise. Second, I just used this as a tool, not expecting it would take me to the final result in my mix. Lots of tweaking went on afterwards. So what I was doing was, as you put it, using my inate musicianship. This pink noise system was just a tool in the process. It can be a help in that way.
thank you for making this video. I saw another youtuber doing this, that person made it so confusing and she started selling pink noise track for 10 dollar whch made it even more confusing... now im good. My mix is ready! Thank you.
You are absolutely right. Love your videos on sound engineering.
Joe, I'am also a guitarist, producer, composer, mixing & Mastering engineer for the past 39 years. I was also an A&R guy in EMI Malaysia back in the 90's. I luv doing mixing & mastering just like U. I think this pink noise reference mix can only be usefull at mastering stage as a guide, but not to really depends on it....Anyway I like all ur videos about mixing....keep it up
Absolutely correct. Thanks.
Thanks for this man great video and demo.
This actually works. I've used this technique before and would use it now, but I'm not mixing much atm. And it was for rock.
I compared vs NS10's, and my mixes came out almost identical just using a fader mix. It almost replaces the need for NS10's.
The trick is to use the track trims to set it, so the faders stay flat, somewhere under unity.
This gives you a base. Then you make changes where necessary.
This could maybe not work too well if your raw tracks suck. You might need to shape some things beforehand, and maybe go back and forth bit.
This definitely helps with consistency if anything... and a crap system... and a crap room etc. Especially for someone starting out, it can also help someone identify obvious issues and what needs to be worked on.
Of course this isn't gonna fix automation for things like mixing for emotion etc. It's isn't totally cool proof. It's meant to be a base. After a while, you stay figuring out what needs to be done to fix things things and makes mixing more predictable.
I've never heard of this before, but it sounds like a quantitative way to do something that's qualitative.
YES. You said it so well.
It has some uses thou.
The main idea is to create a quick base line to work with. It helps a lot when you have to mix/master several tracks for an album so you have a common flat ground to start with.
Pink/white noise mixing is mostly used for live music, it helps you quantize the whole place to create a "zero-flat ground" so you can even out the sound spread. I've personally used it to test resonances, leveling amps and testing feedback problems.
Works perfectly if you just use type beats from RUclips , you only have two things to worry about , vocals and the beat ,(not including reverb or delay balancing) but if you have your vocals sounding the way you want them just use the pink noise to get the balance between the beat and your vocals. EASY. Wish I found pink noise sooner.
I am glad you tried it Joe, I have tried it a few times, I used it as a starting point as my static mix prior to EQ, compression etc. As you stated it gets annoying listening to the pink noise real fast.
Yeah I was relieved that it didn't work, because it was a rough 10 minutes.
An intentionally unbalanced mix is way more exciting than a fully, mindlessly balanced mix.
YES!!! You said it so well.
Stephen Tack this is true, however in this instance it sounded totally unbalanced and amateur. Not a huge fan of this method if I’m honest.
While that’s true, this mix sounded TOTALLY unbalanced which is a different thing than a mix that FEATURES specific instruments.
Andy yeah, I was speaking to the problem I'd have with a perfected version of this technique.
Painful but True.
Personally i use pink noise A LOT but not fo levelling but in eqing instruments ... i use sometimes a match eq with pink noise with sidorted guitar and either mix it by 10-20 % in Izotope Ozone OR i make it totally flat and shape soudn sound afterwards with a second eq, that is useful to get rid of nasal parts or harsh parts of the sound and you have a even startingpoint for further eqing ... on the pass i take red noise sometimes ... and with the hofa tilt eq you can also shape everything then to fit in the mix
Now THAT is a useful tip. It's fairly easy for me to hear which frequencies I need to get RID of, but much harder to hear which frequencies I might want to add. I can hear peaks better than holes in the frequencies. I never thought of using a match EQ against a pink noise reference to fill in missing frequencies to create sort of a "flat baseline" starting point, then adding an eq after that for desired shaping. That is brilliant. @Joe Gilder now that would be a useful tutorial. Maybe I'll do one...
Aside from that brilliant idea, I use pink noise for mainly 2 things:
1- Tuning a room. Just as @Michael Donehoo mentioned. Play pink noise while viewing frequencies coming into an RTA to identify and fix peaks and holes in the room.
2- Calibrating your monitors to your mixing level. I LOVE that broadcast TV has set a legal standard for audio reference levels of -24 LKFS (look up LKFS loudness and the CALM act) - tons of headroom for a lively mix that has energy and life and even web outlets like iTunes are starting to enforce a standard of somewhere around -16 LKFS loudness which is a good thing. So play pink noise at -20 for general mixing, or -24 for broadcast TV mixing. Play the noise through 1 speaker at a time and then use a SPL meter to set the speaker level to around 83 dB (79 to 85 depending on room size, smaller to larger), which is the ear's preferred natural level for mixing. After that, you just mix by ear and it magically turns out at the right level.
Links for more info:
www.playdotsound.com/portfolio-item/keep-it-calibrated-learn-how-and-why-you-should-calibrate-your-studio-monitors/
www.soundonsound.com/techniques/establishing-project-studio-reference-monitoring-levels
www.fcc.gov/media/policy/loud-commercials
www.provideocoalition.com/how-many-lufs-for-ideal-audio-loudness-why-cant-we-be-friends/
Hi! Good video! Quick correction, the next octave of a frequency is double of that one, for example E0 is 41hz approx, E1 is 82hz, E2 164hz... and goes like that
👍
You're so Right, Joe. There's so many Kiddies out there, whose just do stuff they've learned from RUclips tutorials instead of doing things because of their own experiences they made. There's no talent needed to mix like that. Doing music is kind of art process nothing you can create with with pink noise or artiffical intelligence.
Just to share my personal experience on this, I do use this trick, not to mix, but only for gain staging part of session prep. I do a lot of field live recordings, the levels are not always in the ballpark, the pink noise helps a lot especially when you have a lot of tracks. I select the loudest parts of the song, I use the gain pot, not the fader, once set, then I start the actual mixing. As Joe hinted, bass-heavy and quick bright transients content can give a false indication, just keep this in mind, you will naturally compensate. Now, please if you can get the levels during recording, and then do gain stage without pink noise (if needed), that always feel better :)
It definitely helps if all you have is headphones.. I've just tried doing a mix and the majority of things lined up perfectly which then ponits you to the few ones that still need tweaking... When everything needs tweaking its a complete nightmare , so it definably helps!!
How I wish I can like this video a million times... Nice one Joe
👊 thanks
Thank you for spending the time and doing the experiment on this for us. I had my doubts about it and you confirmed my suspicion. I will continue to mix and master using my EARS! Thanks.
Nice vid. I use pink noise for my music. then i add/subtrack volumes which require attention. it gives me more headroom. I enjoyed your track by the way. thanks!
Man such an insightful video on mixing with pink noise, definitely going to subscribe. Also that goes to show you shouldn't believe in everything that someone tells you and at the end of the day to try it for yourself and see if it works for you.
Try this instead. Since in Voxengo Span, pink noise is the same as flat eq curve (at a 'slope' setting of 3). Just solo each element, bringing their level up until the loudest part of the frequency spectrum of said solo'd sound hits a nominal average level (do this in 'AVG' mode at the top right of Span). Achieves the same thing much faster and without having to listen to grating pink noise. It's still useless of course, because sounds with a high average loudness will be turned down relative to quick transient material. Any short clicky sound will thus be way to loud in the mix
I really liked that mix. If you release that, I would add it to my playlist. Those guitars can fill the atmosphere/background. Pink noise mixing might make some sounds disappear but I love it
Thank you, I'm so glad you took the time to try this, I've been messing around with electronica stuff for around 30+ years, just a hobby to keep me sane. I tried this approach on my style of sound and it just sounded like a weak generic radio-friendly mess, I was starting to think it was just me until I found this upload. ~ subscribed, and still using ears!
Doing this before FX and EQ is certainly different than after. That said...why would you want a "perfect" blend? If a song needs more drive... you crank the appropriate tracks (drums??). So... this is like a science experiment....nothing to do with mixing.
\
Using this curve is a great contour for loudness in mastering. Like you said, when you've created a full mix. Doing it beforehand just simply doen't make sense. Like other peeps said as well: it's not what it's for.
@Joe Gilder • Home Studio Corner
What i found works better is to do an overall quick mix and adjust the effects on every single track before doing this. And the first step is to identify the sound that is the most defining of the track you're mixing (for example: kick drum for rap or rnb music) and you start there. Instead of just making sure every sound gets below the pinknoise, you adjust in accordance to the level you set your first track at . You do this through out every track. The pink noise is no longer serving as a guide but as a reference. I guaranty you the results are pretty impressive!
Could you do this visually with something like span, where you overlay the two spectrums and then level them. That way you dont have to listen noise ?
Excellent - thanks for posting.
Level balancing done like this sounds more like a "mathematical / deterministic" activity than a "creative / subjective" one. As you said in another video, you are done doing level balancing when you feel like music is connected with you in some way. That's the beauty of what we do.
Hmm, when i tried this i leveled by having the most important elements actually be louder than the pink noise, kind of using pink noise as a point of reference for loudness, rather than a mask. I dont use it anymore tbh. But was a neat trick for dense mixes.
The pink is for specific kind of music and i could hear that. the mix is perfect with the pink by genre but your own genre has its own perfect mixing style. Its like mixing one song for rock and the same song for pop with minor changes, if you get what im trying to say.
The only part where it works for me is comparing the master track's spectrum meter to the curve of the pink noise, that's really helping in finding a good balance even in a bad sounding room, or on headphones.
I could see maybe doing that in a pinch. But you could also match the EQ curve and still have a horrible mix.
I usually mix in mono to get the levels right and it seems to work but I'll definitely give this technique a shot, thanks for sharing!
Good luck
Great video. when I mix, I feel certain things should be slightly louder in the mix like the lead vocals, kick and bass so in my head this way of mixing wouldn't work which is why I've never bothered trying it. It was great seeing it actually done and hearing the result. Thanks for taking the time Joe
This isn't about "mixing levels" it's about EQing
I use this but it’s just to get an initial balance before eq/compression. Then I’ll do it again when I’m at a point to automate.
I like using it as a starting point...often if the client is asking for something there and then. takes 5 mins and gets the point across. Agree with the mono stuff too as it shows the overlaps.
Those background vocals are 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Have you done a video of pink noise gated on the snare? I'm having a hard time making that sound right.
I think that if this would work, that'd mean we don't need people mixing tracks anymore, this could be very well automated. It might be perfectly balanced, but as you said - it's not tasteful, which is an intended disbalance. I think this could work as a starting point to do your mixing from onwards - you start with a perfectly even balance, then you decide how to break it to tell your story. That was sure an interesting watch though :)
Spot on. It should be treated as a starting point, not a solution.
Hi everyone... I use the Pinknoise for my "Ear-Clear-Reset" thing. I really like the idea of balancing the mix to the Pinknoise. Maybe I'll try this thing but more like Main-Vocals to the Band-Track or to Master the MainTrack to the Pinknoise. BUT BIIIIG Thanks for this video...
I use Pink Noise mixing as a starting point. Then lower or raise volumes afterwards if something is too loud or not loud enough. I believe I am getting better mixes than when I used to 'just' trust my ears to mix.
Hey if it works for you, great!
i use to do balance with pink noise by hearing, i too did not satisfied with mix, but i enjoyed my mix with pink noise, doing with muted master output and by watching pink noise signal in equalizer and desired channel equalizer matching with pink noise ... personally i saw great mix by using pink noise.
I EQ first and the do the pink noise variant... somehow always worked for me. I don't do rock music but latin
Totally agree!
Pink noise secret balance seems to be in leveling subgroups on the last stage, with and without a limiter showing the lufs goal you want to reach (weird) / when you do not have a treated room I think its the best way to get a well balanced mix
Thanks
I tried this the other day and had some success with the kick, snare, bass blend. (And yes, I realize I'm five years late to this party. haha)
I will give it a try (in a different session of course)
Mixing is not a static event. It's dynamic with moving up and down faders and stuff; switching on and off FX.... doing something wild and out of the box. But for a basic mix start setup this method might be a good thing for those with little to no experience
Thank you for this test! I totally agree with you.
What I've taken to doing recently is using this technique for a gain staging pass - I'll do this process very quickly, then put a gain trim plugin on each channel to bump that level to 0dB on the faders. I find that, after doing that, when I get into doing a proper mix, my intuitions about what I want to stand out or sit back are a bit easier to turn into reality.
Great. If that works for you, awesome! I just don't like listening to pink noise.
I can definitely see your thoughts as to the limitations here. My question then becomes this. For a beginner to have a reference to start mixing, do you see this a place to start with mixing?
I've started using it and I find that after using pink noise to get basic levels, adjusting other elements like tamb and rim shots etc that I want to sit back in the mix works well for me... I just use it as a way to kibd of get a ballance between bass/kick, snares/claps hats etc.. Like the main elements that I want to carry the track, then adjust the bits in between... As in... If i do the pink noise initial ballance, and an element is poking out i turn in down and vice versa.. So far, when I have done this and run it through ozone master assistant, any eq adjustments made by ozone has been within 3db
Actually, I tried it recently and had a pretty good result which I tweaked a little here and there. Prior to trying it I just couldn't get the acoustic guitar or the snare drum side stick to sit in the mix correctly. After I tried the pink noise thingy, everything just sit together a bit better and helped me to find the levels I couldn't quite decide on previously.
Two things:
1. I tried the pink noise AFTER I had done the EQing and some processing to make the instruments roughly occupy their own relative space.
2. I didn't accept the result as absolute but rather as a starting point after which, again, I made various tweaks.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised how everything came together and how it helped me to decide on some of the relative volumes of the instruments. Though I am still working on the mix, I am finding that all the instruments are being heard individually and collectively and cohesively.
Oh well, just my two cents. Thanks for the video.
This is spot on. Just how it should be used, to get yourself to a good starting point.
White noise doesn't sound brighter because there's "more frequencies" between 1k-2k than there are between 100-200hz. That's like saying there are more numbers between 1 and 2 than there are between 2 and 3. There's an equally infinite number of places you could pinpoint as "a frequency" between those two points, whether you're talking analogue or digital. There's no limit to how many decimal places you can put after 65.001 Hz and it will end up being a different frequency to 65hz.
White noise sounds brighter than Pink noise because pink noise is equal energy per octave and bass/low frequencies have a lot more energy for the same amplitude. This means that, in order to match the same amount of energy in the 1-2k octave as there is in the 100-200hz region, you need your 1-2k frequencies to have a lower amplitude (quieter). This results in Pink noise being skewed towards the bass frequencies having a higher volume.
lol thank you for posting this I was shakin my head when he said that
Totally agree. Your simple, correct explanation, is why you can hear bass frequencies outside of gigs and clubs, but very little or no treble. Joe's explanation is founded on the idea that frequencies are quantised into integer packets. Both experience and some high school science shows they're continuous and infinitely divisible. Might not be what he meant, but us was a misleading explanation.
8:53. Yes, that was definitely the loudest thing. Interfered with the vocals.
Could probably have a more unified sound if you have a pinknoise source trough the mic input eq to main pinknoise level before you capture, then bring it to pnkns-level for all?
You don't need the noise - just hold the FFT guide over the track and look for humps. Then you can work on those humps by figuring out what is creating the hump, and using tactical work - EQ's, multiband EQ or multiband compression. I typically do this at the end, but I don't worry over it so much that I'm absolutely flattening everything.
I could see using it briefly to see any peaks that are jumping out, but I still don't like the idea of making auditory decisions with my eyeballs.
Yep. I generally only use techniques like that if I'm *hearing* a problem and I want to see what is going on in that frequency region.
Joe Gilder: Great example - if you do a reference on the album "Grace Street" by the band Big Wreck, you'll find that it doesn't obey the idea of flattening along the FFT line. It's pretty lumpy. The stylistic choice there was to have round, fluffy low-mids. And the album wouldn't sound as good if it was flattened.
You seem to be evaluating this as a method for getting a proper mix, but I don't think that was the intention.
When I'm composing a song, I have to do rough mixes multiple times as I change and add elements. My ears can be fatigued by the time I get to that point because I've probably been looping parts of the song for long periods of time. This trick is perfect for getting a quick, rough balance at that stage of music making.
I wouldn't use this when it's time to mix the track for real, but the other walkthrough I watched made it pretty clear this was just for a rough mix
Exactly right. It's a shortcut to getting your mix to a good place to start, especially if you don't have a pro studio and top end monitors. Unfortunately it seems to be treated as a solution, which is not what the OP proposed.
I’d never use this technique but after I’ve generally finished composition (and gain staging while doing so due to the actual musicality of mixing because it is as much an instrument as any other) I always check to see if my mixes will hit the limiter correctly with the right spectral balance before compression and eq and then after compression and eq and it always produces a loud and boomy master with nice stereo width in electronic genres where the signal is very loud
I agree. How about using it as a reference for mastering? For example when using multi-compressors? Just as reference and if it dont work then oh well.
So this has intrigued me for years.How people get great mixes.The one thing i did was at the time I was using analog was I put an eq in line with my output. Used a RTA and lined up all my frequencies in my mix .So that everything was flat.I got mixes that would hit you in the chess and where unreal.Ever since I went digital its wonderful but I can't figure out how to use an external EQ and RTA with it.
Great Vid Joe... Much Thanks Again!!!
Thanks Andre
White noise sounding bright has nothing to do with having "a higher number of frequencies up there"; rather, it's about the fact that the energy of a single sine wave rises with its frequency when its amplitude is kept constant. Pink noise can essentially be manufactured by simply EQ-ing white noise in a way that compensates for this frequency-to-energy relationship.
Hey joe . Just came across this pink noise mixing technique. I tried it . And instead of bringing the level up to the pink noise . Just capture the curve and turn off the generator and bring up the tracks to the curve . If u would like to try it and give your views .
Hey Joe, I actually tried it on my mixes and got really good starting point for mixing. It actually taught me to carefully listen to each instrument and as whole in a balanced way. I do gospel music and this worked out for me. I know it won't for genres as I was told. Thanks for trying though. We still love your tutorials.
👍
May be you need to eq each sound separately BEFORE to mix them together using pink noise?
Thats what I was thinking, but this pink noise probably works well for producers that just do a quick mix to level.
Especially trap beats and rnb
Tunnel Vision that’s why I’m intrigued by it. Mixing still looks like voodoo to me lol. It would be nice to have an efficient way to get a really good starting place. I find if I just start tweaking stuff it’s just sort of mindlessly groping my way through and not really sure if I’m actually objective,y improving the material or not. I’ll be glad when I get a hold on this stuff. It all just seems so foreign.
Pink noise is actually used to test out how much noise is picked up by a microphone when setting up the gain on the mics for a live venue. Pink noise is generated loud enough to the point the microphone can sense/pick-up the sound because the Pink Noise is meant to mimic real noise. For mixing...similar use but different principle. Mixing engineers are actually using it as a way to check to see if something is poking out too far when the sounds of the other tracks are too dynamic. I don't know how many are actually doing this or how common it is because no one really talks about it often. I use it all the time to check for transients and outlier signals that don't align to the natural crest factor of the song. In other words, I use Pink Noise to hide my song and I listen for sounds that poke out that shouldn't.
I dont think the idea is to, do it then just think your done, i think its a great way to get all the levels organized. You do it. (So its in the ball park) mix normally again , then again ...add to your tools of mixing!
Sory bro i keep first voice level at -6 db n mix,generally nevee use pink nouse method,,, but ,, how to start with pink noise will it wrk in levels??? Is it we have pull down the db??
I can see this working for mixing only certain tracks that should be at the same level. For example, those background vocals sounds really good together after you mixed them with this method and you soloed them. If you were mixing a choir or an orchestra, I could see this being an effective method to mix 14 violins or something. But I don't see this being effective on an entire mix.
Great video! Thanks for all you do.
Yeah I can't see it being effective for anything. 😊
that is a cool trick for finding balances in a cluttered mix or balancing groups of instruments like lo synths and pads - orchestral sounds , percussion etc when in doubt. for a whole mix if you are aiming for that "mastered" sound you need to target higher rms values so the pink noise needs to be hot.. mono and dim are your friends here. also in modern music lo's and hi's are hyped so eq'ing that monitor bus with lo and hi cuts is also helpfull getting that mid range "meat" just right. zero in the freq range you need to adress and work that balance out . if i use it i almost never balance the 3 most important tracks of the mix . i do it by ear . if i do try to balance them in , i make sure they pop clear over that pink noise . some times it works , sometimes not
A good case. Thanks!
I believe that the actual reason why we hear white noise brighter (as in "with more high frequencies") is because of the sensitivity of our ears. It is contemplated in the Fletcher-Munson curves.
Could you use pink noise as a starting point for your mix and work from there?
i don't speak english very well but i will try to ask this. What if you use the pink noise without hearing it and just hearing the remaining sound of the guitar (or any instrument) above the pink noise? i don't know if i'm asking this well but thanks for the video, i feel lucky that i found this information. Greetings from chile.
I'm wondering if it's a better approach to just keep in mind that a full mix's curve should look like pink noise. For instance if you're looking at the main output's curve and there's a dip or a bump at a certain frequency range, then something needs boosting or cutting at that frequency.
jeah.. you are right.
as i view it.. the biggest problem is to be working on mixes without checking and continuously making A/B comparisons with Good produced Records of your genre. This together with a couple of Monitors (one of the at least with flat frequency response)..
If you dont have the right monitors and the right reference Tracks.. Pink noise can be a good starting point and help to calibrate your ears. But I would put it this way..
1. know the sound you are after by listening very often.. at any session to good produced Records. You need to recalibrate your ears each 10 Minutes otherwise if you listen to a harsh mix for a while you will loose Frequency feeling and even think it sounds good..
2. Compare very often you mix to those records using flat response speakers that have enough Bass.
Dont mix to loud. Set for you self a decent amount of volume that does not create ear fatige.
3. learn as much as you can about mixing and Mastering to be able to get where you want. Be aware that a mix sounds differen than a Master and why
4.
Avoid using speakers with not Flat frequency response. If you monitoring system is non Flat or emphasizes Bass or/and high frequencies you (even if you know them very well) still are going to miss perfect calibration. That happen to me. And i spent lot of time trying to fix the non fixable...
which on the other hand created lots of frustration. Try to avoid this as early as you can by getting those right Monitors and using reference Tracks and learning.
I you dont have a good monitoring System.. at least use Painstackingly Good Reference Records... You can get pretty good resunlts with any speaker System by unsing reference Tracks or maybe additionally Pink noise. The Thing is... between "pretty good" and "the real thing" is a amall world as big as a good monitoring system.. Good Reference Tracks and you DAW set up in a way you can anytime make A/B comparisons. One thing more...
when your mix or Master is ready its a good idea to compare it (again) with reference tracks... in a few different places: Phones.. in a concert Hall, in the Car, at home of your friends. You just will feel when a mix is ready.. It will be the Point when compared with released Tracks it has the same Fell, Vibe, Bass, Tonal balance and
of course it still sounds good at high volume without annoying frequencies.. Thanks for that Video. I learnd a lot through you Videos Man.
Maybe if you did your mix and then brought the pink noise up slowly to see what the last tracks sticking out are? I dunno, it seems like it's the kind of idea that comes from someone who hasn't actually experimented and tried their idea to me.
Now THAT's interesting
This is similar to a thing I literally just did/tried last week, and helped in "film music" mix (animated), where I had to write all the music WITHOUT yet having the sound FX or "room atmosphere" sounds yet... Sort of similar to what mix engineers for film used to do, but playing a "popcorn" track--sounds which reproduced theater noise--so they could hear how their mixes sounded against "popcorn chewing" noise floor.
Thanks for this video!
Bounce or print your mix, check out the waveform for peaks and valleys, then make the necessary adjustments.
I tried the pink noise trick but I have trouble because I can always hear the track through the pink noise if it’s any louder than muted. I do think the trick was only intended as a quick starting point, though. You get everything level quickly with the pink noise and then make your musical decisions from there. I had better luck doing a similar approach with a LUFS meter. Get everything to an equal perceived volume and then tweak as needed.
What you need to do is leave the pink noise on with all the tracks peaking over the cloud. That way you get to hear the relative decibel relationships off all the tracks in relation to the pink noise colored by the room acoustics. The pink noise gives you an absolute reference point. All professionally made tracks punch through the pink with clarity. If you're tracks don't then you have more work to do. You also change how much of the sound peaks through the cloud by changing the volume of the pink noise, depending on what you are looking for.
static sounds already comes with the connection of your headphones..
question is if you can make a track/song that cancels out static sounds.. (like how noice cancelling headphones do from recorded ambient sounds)