this is a explanation as to why autistic children mostly fail this test: Sally has a marble, which she puts into her basket before leaving the scene. Anne then walks over and puts Sally’s marble into her own basket. Sally returns. It is at this point that the experimenter asks the participant where the marble is. They then ask where Sally will think the marble is. While the correct answer is that Sally should think the marble is in her basket because that is where she left it, autistic participants (who often but not always have a weaker theory of mind) will in many cases respond that Sally will think the marble is in Anne’s basket, because they themselves know the marble is there but fail to take into account that Sally was not present when Anne moved the marble and therefore will not know this information. Two control questions are asked of the participant to ensure they know where the marble was in the beginning, and where it really was at the end.
Well, it's a messy test in the first place. The question is, "Where will Sally look... etc," but it ought to be "Where does Sally THINK the marble is?" It's a basket, so I could imagine a kid saying that Sally would 'look for the marble' only AFTER clearly seeing that it's not there, since there's no lid. Plus, it could only be in one other place. If it were switched so that Sally owns the box, then Anne can hide the marble under that cloth that doesn't often get discussed. That way, the child would say that Sally might look in the *box* first because it wouldn't be so obvious.
Could part of this be a short-term memory issue, or a "focus" (monotropism) issue? I know that even for myself, at 50+, with advanced degrees, it can be hard to focus on the steps/pieces of information in a multi-step sequence. The last piece of information becomes the "most important." After a certain developmental stage/age, it may not be that the autistic person cannot logically understand that other people have other streams of information, but rather that autistic people focus most strongly on the latter pieces of information because they forget former pieces of information, cannot process them concurrently, or do not see them as relevant.
I don't understand. Does going right to the box before locating her marble in the basket mean Sally is suspicious? Does she check the basket first to ascertain that her marble has been stolen first?
It's not about Sally. It's about what the person taking the test thinks that Sally knows about the whereabout of her ball/marble. Someone without theory of mind doesn't understand another's perspective (can't intuit it)... they only know what they know. And what they know is that the ball is in the box so they think sally knows that too. That's why they say she'll look in the box. Someone with ToM, however, knows that the last time Sally saw her ball, it was in the basket. Therefore, that's where she'll look for it. Because it's not about what the test taker knows... it's about what the test taker knows that Sally knows.
The test is a bit contrived and we should learn real life examples to see how it actually plays out. I'm an adult with an ASD. I have an experience that clearly is a ToM thing but no one knew. Kindergartner me in school lunch room being tortured by a bully for the last time ripped the sash off bully's dress and was never asked about the antecedent. 35 years later in a shrink's office I told my mom why I did it and she said "why didn't you tell me you were being bullied? I would have done something" I said that I thought you knew. How could she have known what happened in school if she wasn't there and I didn't tell her? I am verbal and have above average IQ so nobody understands that I was hampered by a faulty ToM but it is clear to me.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! I'm so sorry you were bullied. And, I do agree that this test is contrived! We also believe that it should be more natural when teaching.
what age can we do this test to a child and what can we understand if the child understand the questions or say the right answer or what he really believe?
how can you test this with language delayed child? Lots of language going on, even if the child knows the right answer they at randomly answer this. Is there any other similar tests that would be more motivating so that the child can focus and express her thoughts.
Great questions!! A child would need a good understanding of language to complete this test. There is another theory of mind test called the 'smarties test.' Here is an example: ruclips.net/video/YsrW2Gj3ldE/видео.html Let me know what you think!
Thanks for your videos. You probably already know this but Simon Baron Cohen is a cousin to Sasha Baron Cohen. Maybe brother? Cousins, I think. Regardless, they're both heros, just like Louis Theroux and Justin Theroux.
I had to really think about this. Where would the ball have gone? How can the person that went for a walk know where it went? I can see where it went, obviously in the box! But wouldnt the person that went for a walk have to think about it?
Maybe it has to do with the way they ask the question autistic children might not understand the question, what if they rephrase it for them and test next batch.
Um, I'm a 59 year old woman with ASD and I would've failed the Sally Ann test. I had to be taught the stuff you guys are talking about at age 40 when I was diagnosed. Intelligent and verbal but I didn't know that other people did not think like I did. Also didn't know that not everybody has a number line in their head. I would piss me off when people were slow or unable to do mental math. Also thought everyone could read upside down or backwards. I'd get pissed off at therapists that would take notes in front of me. Why are they writing such bad things about me I'd think. Didn't realize that my mother had no way of knowing the hazing that kids put me through. I got suspended in kindergarten for ripping the sash off a girls dress and was so mad at the teacher and my mother for not realizing that the girl was torturing me. Even at that young age kids knew just how to pick on me. I can do others mind reading a bit but it still doesn't come naturally to me. Maybe this can help you understand some of your patients better?.
@@donnazasgoat2274 Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It really does help hearing this. I have talked to a few other autistic adult women and I love learning more. We are going to try very hard not to take notes in front of people. Thank you for that information! We need to take some notes because different funding sources require is as well as our science. But we can see how we can alter it to be more discrete or inclusive. Thank you!
Thank you for this. This is a complicated subject to make a video on. Theory of Mind is one of my favorite subjects. I thought that you made it simple and easy to understand the Sally-Ann Task. Love it!
Simon Baron-Cohen's work is absolutely mind blowing. I read "Mindblindness, An Essay on Autism and Theory of Mind" first in my undergrad, and that is what led me to work in ASD. Thanks for making this!
4:11 Theory of Mind definition
6:25 The test
this is a explanation as to why autistic children mostly fail this test: Sally has a marble, which she puts into her basket before leaving the scene. Anne then walks over and puts Sally’s marble into her own basket. Sally returns. It is at this point that the experimenter asks the participant where the marble is. They then ask where Sally will think the marble is. While the correct answer is that Sally should think the marble is in her basket because that is where she left it, autistic participants (who often but not always have a weaker theory of mind) will in many cases respond that Sally will think the marble is in Anne’s basket, because they themselves know the marble is there but fail to take into account that Sally was not present when Anne moved the marble and therefore will not know this information. Two control questions are asked of the participant to ensure they know where the marble was in the beginning, and where it really was at the end.
Thank you so much for this perspective! It is a very good point!
Well, it's a messy test in the first place. The question is, "Where will Sally look... etc," but it ought to be "Where does Sally THINK the marble is?" It's a basket, so I could imagine a kid saying that Sally would 'look for the marble' only AFTER clearly seeing that it's not there, since there's no lid. Plus, it could only be in one other place. If it were switched so that Sally owns the box, then Anne can hide the marble under that cloth that doesn't often get discussed. That way, the child would say that Sally might look in the *box* first because it wouldn't be so obvious.
There's Sally, there's Anne, and there's their ball!! Learn about the Sally Anne (theory of mind) test in this video!
Thank you so much for this video! I have an exam tomorrow on autism including the TOM and Sally-Anne Task and this really helped a lot!
That is so great! You're welcome! I hope you did well on the test!
Could part of this be a short-term memory issue, or a "focus" (monotropism) issue? I know that even for myself, at 50+, with advanced degrees, it can be hard to focus on the steps/pieces of information in a multi-step sequence. The last piece of information becomes the "most important." After a certain developmental stage/age, it may not be that the autistic person cannot logically understand that other people have other streams of information, but rather that autistic people focus most strongly on the latter pieces of information because they forget former pieces of information, cannot process them concurrently, or do not see them as relevant.
I don't understand. Does going right to the box before locating her marble in the basket mean Sally is suspicious? Does she check the basket first to ascertain that her marble has been stolen first?
It's not about Sally. It's about what the person taking the test thinks that Sally knows about the whereabout of her ball/marble. Someone without theory of mind doesn't understand another's perspective (can't intuit it)... they only know what they know. And what they know is that the ball is in the box so they think sally knows that too. That's why they say she'll look in the box. Someone with ToM, however, knows that the last time Sally saw her ball, it was in the basket. Therefore, that's where she'll look for it. Because it's not about what the test taker knows... it's about what the test taker knows that Sally knows.
The test is a bit contrived and we should learn real life examples to see how it actually plays out. I'm an adult with an ASD. I have an experience that clearly is a ToM thing but no one knew. Kindergartner me in school lunch room being tortured by a bully for the last time ripped the sash off bully's dress and was never asked about the antecedent. 35 years later in a shrink's office I told my mom why I did it and she said "why didn't you tell me you were being bullied? I would have done something" I said that I thought you knew. How could she have known what happened in school if she wasn't there and I didn't tell her? I am verbal and have above average IQ so nobody understands that I was hampered by a faulty ToM but it is clear to me.
Thank you so much for sharing your story! I'm so sorry you were bullied. And, I do agree that this test is contrived! We also believe that it should be more natural when teaching.
This was helpful. Thanks
what age can we do this test to a child and what can we understand if the child understand the questions or say the right answer or what he really believe?
Good question! This skill comes at age 4! They also need a good language understanding, such as being able to answer "Why" questions!
Can someone provide a pdf of both books theyre so expensive in my country
Cool video. Fun fact: Sasha Baron-Cohen and Simon Baron-Cohen are cousins.
That is a fun fact!! I did not know that!!! 😀
So interesting...
You guys are hilarious, my favorite couple.👧👦 I felt like your personalities really shined in this video!
Thanks a lot Lia!!! That was so nice! Thanks for watching and commenting!
how can you test this with language delayed child? Lots of language going on, even if the child knows the right answer they at randomly answer this. Is there any other similar tests that would be more motivating so that the child can focus and express her thoughts.
Great questions!! A child would need a good understanding of language to complete this test.
There is another theory of mind test called the 'smarties test.'
Here is an example:
ruclips.net/video/YsrW2Gj3ldE/видео.html
Let me know what you think!
What a great 'new to me' concept! Sounds like it would be useful for a lot of applications!
Yes! There are so many applications!!! Thank you so much for your comment! :)
You should have explained why the box is the incorrect answer when you were telling percentages, for those who are not familiar with the test.
Thank you so much for recommending this book. Both of you stay blessed. Amen
Bushra Ayub I am so glad you like it! Thank you for your comment!! 🙂
Thanks for your videos. You probably already know this but Simon Baron Cohen is a cousin to Sasha Baron Cohen. Maybe brother? Cousins, I think. Regardless, they're both heros, just like Louis Theroux and Justin Theroux.
I had to really think about this. Where would the ball have gone? How can the person that went for a walk know where it went? I can see where it went, obviously in the box! But wouldnt the person that went for a walk have to think about it?
Maybe it has to do with the way they ask the question autistic children might not understand the question, what if they rephrase it for them and test next batch.
Definitely a good point! It would be worth it to retest asking a different way!
Um, I'm a 59 year old woman with ASD and I would've failed the Sally Ann test. I had to be taught the stuff you guys are talking about at age 40 when I was diagnosed. Intelligent and verbal but I didn't know that other people did not think like I did. Also didn't know that not everybody has a number line in their head. I would piss me off when people were slow or unable to do mental math. Also thought everyone could read upside down or backwards. I'd get pissed off at therapists that would take notes in front of me. Why are they writing such bad things about me I'd think. Didn't realize that my mother had no way of knowing the hazing that kids put me through. I got suspended in kindergarten for ripping the sash off a girls dress and was so mad at the teacher and my mother for not realizing that the girl was torturing me. Even at that young age kids knew just how to pick on me. I can do others mind reading a bit but it still doesn't come naturally to me. Maybe this can help you understand some of your patients better?.
@@donnazasgoat2274 Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It really does help hearing this. I have talked to a few other autistic adult women and I love learning more. We are going to try very hard not to take notes in front of people. Thank you for that information! We need to take some notes because different funding sources require is as well as our science. But we can see how we can alter it to be more discrete or inclusive. Thank you!
Skip to 4:11 to actually start hearing about theory of mind
Thanks for that!
@@Intothespectrumvideos no problem :)
Will this work on a 13 yr old hf
Thanks for the education!
MORIAH Thanks for the comment! ☺️
I really like it
Thank you!
Blue shirt guy is so cute
You both are in love.
Lol!
@@Intothespectrumvideos save the last dance
Thank you for this. This is a complicated subject to make a video on. Theory of Mind is one of my favorite subjects. I thought that you made it simple and easy to understand the Sally-Ann Task. Love it!
Simon Baron-Cohen's work is absolutely mind blowing. I read "Mindblindness, An Essay on Autism and Theory of Mind" first in my undergrad, and that is what led me to work in ASD. Thanks for making this!
You are so welcome! Glad it was helpful! Thank you for watching!!!
He is great! Love his work!
I liked this video! I'd not heard of the Sally Anne test, so I'll read more about it. Thank you! :) Will also check out the books.
Thanks Judy!! The theory of mind stuff is really cool! It ties into the social domain very nicely!