My dad was a toolmaker. When I was a kid I found his bag of gauges, similar to this, took them to my room and painted them to look like tiny robots that could punch each other. At least he sees the funny side of it now. About forty years later..
It's always a tragedy when a good instrument dies. When I was about ten, my uncle gave me a vernier caliper (in fractional inches, no less) and my Mom insisted that my dad grind the points off the nibs. We lied to her and said he had, and fifty years later I still have it. Machinists are kinda nerdy about stuff like that.
I used to try and use snap gauges for cylinder bore work. I used to ride dirt bikes. I could never get an accurate measurement either. I knew from my machinist training, that engine machinists have specialized bore gauges, but I couldn't afford those. I swallowed my pride and asked a guy at work. He had worked on radial aircraft engines at the Curtis Wright facility during WWII. He served in Korea. I always watched him real close, but he was kind of grumpy and intimidating. When I asked him about measuring these bores, he looked at me kind of funny, like I said something that smelled bad. He went and got a metal box he had squirreled away. He explained that trying to use snap gauges won't work. The wear patterns in the bore make an accurate measurement impossible. He told me to take his personal bore taper indicator. It's really old, but accurate. Let him know if it worked for me. This tool has a kind of 'sled' (not sure what to call it) that an indicator sits on. There are different length tips in this kit, that are used depending on bore size. A rod attaches to the device so it can be easily slid down the bore. I used it, figured out the proper dimension to bore it oversize. Worked great! The machinist, Donald Andrews (RIP), gave me the tool. I've used it countless times. He didn't think it was doing anybody any good buried in his tool box. I got to know him well after that. We became good friends. I get to tell this story about a quiet man that helped me out, every time I show that tool off.
Yeah, looked at the timeline to notice it was halfway done when i was gettin into ToT mode. Sooo i’ll be watching the other episodes, again, for the third/forth time.
Hey This Old Tony: First of all - thank you! I basically got into metal fabrication and welding because of your videos. How about a shop tour video sometime?
I have asked for this too, I'm told it may be on the books later. Interestingly Tony said he moves kit about a fair bit, so it feels like it needs to be more than just a shop tour and more of a tour and mindset /process path video.
Shane K speaking of ballistic, one time I took apart a tool, not knowing there was a spring, and the thing exploded! I swear the spring and a few parts must of ended up in orbit and are there to this day because I've looked everywhere in my shop and can't find em.
That's how I take apart certain gun bolts. Just to be safe cause the shag carpet in my shop has enough small parts hiding as it is. No really it's a good thing to do .
Pro tip, when the surprise shooting spring threat is high, disassemble within a clear plastic bag. The bigger the better because if you can keep your hands way down in the bag while you disassemble, the springs have further to shoot to escape the bag. Drape a shop rag over the opening, hold it close to your chest, or do something else to try to minimize the opening. One more pro tip for when you've already lost a part. Grab a flashlight and turn off the overhead lights. Get down on the floor and shine the beam nearly parallel to the floor. Any dust, dirt, chips, or parts you're looking for will now cast a very long shadow, making them easy to see. I think the beam also helps to focus your attention on a distinct area instead of taking in an overall picture. Try it, you'll be surprised how dirty your floor is.
As I tell every new person in the shop, the difference between low quality and slightly better quality to good quality is if things are deburred. After deburring it's often all fit and finish. Good overview of this "deburring" of premium tools to make them work right... I think I will break mine down and give them a once over just for sanity sakes, and because TOT did it.
A couple years ago I treated myself to a starrett 91B tap wrench. I'd been eyeing one for a while and finally pulled the trigger on one. It was brand new in the box still in the plastic bag. I was so excited I could barely contain myself. I brought it to work with me and wanted to try it so bad that I grabbed a piece of CRW (can't remember what) stock, drilled a tap hole and grabbed a tap. This is where my excitement died. I went to close the wrench on the tap and got a gut churning crunching sound from inside of it. I stopped what I was doing and took the wrench apart to find metal shavings all through the insides. It took me about an hour to clean them all out. It broke my heart to spend all that money on it just to have to pick up where they left off.
I have a Starrett automatic center punch that works about a third of the time. A good whack against the table usually gets it working the rest of the time. Pulling it apart shows nothing too obvious, but my Chinese one works flawlessly.
And this is why I only buy used tools. They are generally cheaper because they are 'used', but as a whole, older tools are much better made... back when people gave a hoot about what they were making.
TOT: "We need to do what Brown and Sharpe failed to do" ME: "Wow, Tony is going to teach us how to end a prolonged labor dispute without destroying the company, and in about a minute of remaining video!"
Well, that would be an even shorter video. When you have a 100+ year-old company that is synonymous with quality precision instruments, you pay the people who make those instruments every penny they're worth and then some, even if it means your stock price dips for a month or two. People who need good instruments now go elsewhere at any cost and people like Tony will be one time customers, rather than the multi-generation customers B&S used to count on.
Did you say there's a new TOT video? I was very busy doing important things while working from home, but I'll set that all aside for some TOT! -- wait what day is it?
Those look about as well deburred as the hardened Starrett combination square head that i got a few years ago new. I could shave with the edges on that thing.
That is a shame. I have a set of Starrett snap gauges that are gritty also. I sent a brand new Starrett caliper back to the factory because the rack was made from two pieces and you could feel the transition between the two, could not stand it, it was better but not fixed when i received it back. I gave them away to a young man that was proud to own them.
My hardened Starrett is just fine. But then I got it 1974 or 5. Had to wait about 6 months for them to come up in the production rotation. As to the telescoping gates. I've always thought they should have a bigger radius on them. Maybe a drilled out steel ball.
Problem is that I don't keep any light oil around. I tried switching to light oil but my family just doesn't like the flavor as much as a full fat oil.
I bought a set at a used tool store years ago, no idea what they did. A few weeks later at work, I needed to figure a bored ID, not my usual kind of machining, and it occurred to me these things would work. Yep they worked. An old timer told me that is exactly what they were made for so he was less impressed with my brilliance than I was!
Only a machinist would buy a set of tools just because theyre old and well made even if they have no idea what they do. He who dies with the most and highest quality tools wins the game of life.
Wait, you narrate these LIVE?! Dude, your commentary is so tight I thought you had to be doing like a scripted dub pass over your videos. You're a freaking super hero.
Well it's actually easy if you know what you are doing (havent tried it as in making youtube videos myself but noticed when I explain something, how it works etc) this is also how I choose to look "how to" or other sort of technical videos if it is dubed/scripted I assume that the one making the video doesnt really know what he is doing and just googled the basics for the topic of his video.
The amount of joy i derive from learning about deburring bore gauges is inversely proportional to the chance of me ever needing them. Such is the magic of ToT.
eh, who cares. With modern Nikasil bores they rarely wear and when they do wear enough there's a ridge at the top thats enough to catch a fingernail on. The coating is very thin, any serious damage is noticeable with the eye
I just took the head off mine and mashed a sheet of foam down on it then measured the imprint. Turns out the 80cc bicycle engine I bought was really 200cc's! Until I remembered it's pi*r^2 not pi*d^2.
Aidan Gillett seems like I ran into a company that could reapply the nikasil coating on 2stroke cylinders. They specialized in old Yamahas , but I don’t think they were too picky about it.
Great call, TOT. I have a set of Tee gauges I bought over fifty years ago, and I always assumed the crunchiness was just a manifestation of interference between the spring coils and keepers. Now I know it can be fixed. I plan to clean them with mineral spirits, as alcohol has suddenly become precious in my house.
Every other TOT video: Here's a quick tip... 26 minutes later. I feel like I've been cheated out of 20 solid minutes of meandering around said quick tip on this one. I have no recourse but to pull out my bore gauges and a stone. In protest.
“Shame we have to do this to ‘premium’ tools”. I bought a brand new set of B&S parallels- had to grind the 1/2” pair so they’d match. A brand new pair of B&S v-blocks I had to grind one side to put the vees on center. Went from referring to Brown and sharpe as B&S to just BS!
B&S just isn't what they used to be. They lost quite a few of their older established skilled craftspeople during a labor dispute in the early 80's and it was more or less downhill from there.
Had a set of moore and wright telescopic bore gauges they served me well for 30 years.they were second hand when i got them ,probly made in the 1940s keep up the good work
Learning that you can pull these bore gauges apart and clean and do "Minor" rework on them. . . thanks! Now to go get some and see what needs to be done!
I was just thinking the same thing. I have a set of pure Chinesium bore gauges from Harbor Freight that could do with having a bit of poking and polishing...
TOT I want my money back on this episode!! You brought back one of those suppressed memories of mine. I was training a newbie on how to measure a bore. The first few measurements went fine, but then the lock got really tight on them. With some decent effort, it freed up. Unfortunately they didn’t realize that just the tip is the lock and inadvertently loosened the handle shaft. The proper term for the “plungers” are “projectiles”. After that, it was just one of those bad days. To account for all the parts, I took apart another gauge to see what was in it. I can’t ever use my gauge set without noticing that two of them have different thread sealant on the handle shafts. You made me go look at them just so I could shake my head again.
I bought a set from harbor freight. After trying them only once with no good results I threw them in back of a drawer never to be seen again until I watched abom79 using them on a video. He, by far has the best method of using them with repeatable results I’ve ever seen. Now, thanks to him I didn’t waste my money. They were also very gritty feeling. I took em apart and cleaned em up and now they’re a good, frequently used tool. Finally, I can cut some precise bores.
I follow way too many channels, but TOT always grabs my attention first. It's got to the stage that is 3rd season re-runs from the start in preference to watching new content on other channels . You sir are what all educators, lectures and teachers should aspire to be, informative, educational, entertaining and able to hold the attention of your audience. Stay safe mate, you improve the lives of 793k people on this Earth.
Someone once told me that This Old Tony’s videos were boring, I said, Yes, yes they are. You can now even measure how boring to a precise measurement 👌🏼
And the main reason I clicked on this video got answered. And that is how the bore gauge actually worked. Seems like a fairly simple and elegant solution.
Isolation beginning to bite huh? Stripping and filing bore gauges . Same here, screw boxes in order, argon bottle finally strapped to bench, hell I've even swept the floor!
Best Present ever. You posted this on my Birthday. After dealing with NO ONE because of the current Blah blah blah, I got this!!! Love your vids Tony. Admittedly I have watched all your videos. Thank you for the teachings and the laughs.
I wish I watched this earlier. You have to try to post your videos before I need them. I mean, how hard can it be. I bought a set of telescoping bore gauges from perhaps Enco some 10 years ago when I was first starting to throw my son's inheritance into this hobby. About a month ago I was annoyed by the "crunchiness" of their action so it took to disassembling one to see what I could do to fix the problem. Well, needless to say, I didn't pull up the carpet in my garage and now I have fo find a home for 16 boxes of spring wire and time to learn how to wind springs.
Finally up close, I get to see what Abom pulls out of his pocket and peels/pulls down( like he is about to break into a dance) out of a part. Then magically has a measurement. I knew I could count on you. Stay healthy and acne.
Thanks Ken! We need to preserve these industry names, otherwise we look like idiots trying to explain to the wife why it took two beers, I mean HOURS, to *fix* our precision whatsidoodles.
Careful about the language...this is a sorta family garage channel. Talk about repairing your precision personal whatsadoodie with the reverence it deserves!🤪😁😲😄👽👍😎
Changed over from an imported set to a set of original Sheffield-made Moore & Wright single-plunger items obtained from a retired toolmaker up near Colchester. Light years apart in quality, the M&Ws are a trustworthy joy to use....
I made the same point in another comment. Chinesium tools are not the greatest, but, for the most part, they are perfectly usable, and orders of magnitude cheaper than the likes of Starrett and Brown & Sharp. So the big names have to cut production costs to stay in business. I mentioned Stanley with their mexico production plant. Stanley tools are not what they used to be, but with a wee bit of a fettle they can be.
@@aserta B&S was a pillar of machines and tools in Providence for decades until the 1970s. Where the domestic and European competition got fierce. Margins slowly and surely went down and CEOs made some bad decisions. Japan quality started to rise. Labor union issues and cost of living kept rising. Don't forget that B&S was a fierce competitor and may have caused the demise of many machine tool companies itself. There is customer loyalty but when another product at half the cost does the job then you can't compete. Just my 0.02.
So glad you took on this small project, I have wanted to attempt it in the past every time I reach for mine. Now I feel I have what it takes to be successful. Thank you Tony!
You know, one thing I love about the videos you make is the tools you use. Back in a Small Engine class in highschool, we learned about these various measuring tools while we learned about tearing down a single cylinder Briggs motor, and reassembling it. I haven't touched, nor heard anything about the bore gauges in years. Back then I wasn't too keen on learning anything so I never fully understood how to read an analog Micrometer but seeing this has brought back those memories and kind of makes me want to buy some of these just to measure random stuff around my home.
I am a blacksmith (advanced hobbyist) but your videos over the years have opened up a whole new dimension to my home-work-hobby Thank you very much, Sir.
Thank you for showing how to disassemble them. Mine have always bothered me, but I was reluctant to take them apart because I didn't know the procedure. I'm guessing that Mitutoyo telescopic gages are better, but they are also $170 for a six piece set.
@@karlkunkle9233 I'm surprised to hear that. I have the utmost respect for their products. You saved me some money, and I don't blame you for being disappointed ;-)
I've had this problem for years but never had the khunas to take them apart. I'd used expensive ones supplied by employers and when I became a contractor I bought cheap (ish) Draper ones and assumed the roughness was "built in". I think the roughness also affects the operation to a degree, so now I will attack the little beggars, Thanks! PS. I shall slightly warm the thread-lock as that reduces the chances of damaging the parts especially the small ones. Please keep the great videos coming I've loved them all,
I've got an ancient pair of snap gauges that are well built, but they still slip if you try to use a ratchet thimble or clutch on the mic. The trick is just not to do that lol.
The locking pin dimensions likely determine how well they lock. If the point of the pin is too short, the smaller rod won't lock unless you tighten the piss out of it.
Yeah, I thought the rough finish might actually be intended on the floor of the keying slot at least, if that is smooth and the whole thing is oiled as well I can see it needing a serious tighten to hold properly.
I was thinking the same. I have two sets, Starrett and Mit, and the Mitutoyo is what I reach for every time. I want to love Starrett, but they're just not made as well as they used to/should be.
@@kosir1234All inferred/transposed measurements are up to the skill of the operator, but second hand Mitutoyo set in good shape will last your lifetime.
This video couldn't have come at a better time for me. Just got a set second hand with some surface rust and tried to tear into them...knew they come apart, but was afraid of bending/breaking them. Thanks This (not so) Old Tony...you are a scholar and a gentleman.
So... you made me rush out and dismantle one of my inherited seventy year old Moore & Wright bore gauges. I have always been happy with them; they certainly lock OK, (only have one moving anvil). Guess what... they have had minimal use, and they too have a slightly "gritty" feel! :o( I'd never noticed... you've broken my heart! Mine did not need deburring, but as with yours, the pin-slot has been made with an end-mill or similar, resulting in uneven walls. If the slot had been made with a keyway cutter, it would have been smoother on the walls, but would have needed stop-pins or holes at the ends. Alternatively, a shoe in the slot would be good, but either way, would you pay for the finished product! Keep up the good work... we need you in these times.
It's the chrome plating. He could easily make a nifty set if he cared to spent the time, but they'd rust because blueing isn't gonna get it for that kind of tool, and for some reason nobody even entertains the option of nickel plating even though its dirt simple and effective.
@@somebodyelse6673 Hard Chrome plating (not just "flash chrome") beats the hell out of nickel plating as far as wear resistance is concerned. FWIW, Starrett telescoping gauges aren't plated or stainless. They are made of tool steel though, likely containing a fair bit of either chromium or nickel. (They will rust, but not easily.)
I would just go back to the tried and true.. I have the exact same set in the blue vinyl case and they have worked great for 30 years. In this time of covid 19 your videos are goto vids for virtual school. Great job!
Where i used to work i had a telly gauge jam on me one day so i loosed everything up and still couldn't get it open. Finally i gave it a little tap on the wooden bench and bang off all the parts went!! Found everything but the spring, fortunately i kept the gauge because a year later at Christmas we were having a big clean and in all the swarf (chips) under the work bench there was the spring. 20 years later its still going strong!! I also worked with some animals who would tighten them up so much they dented the bottom face where the anvil lands.
Thank You!!! I’ve had a set for quite a while and have wanted to smooth them out to perform better. Hats off to you good sir for this demonstration on safe disassembly. 👍👍👍👍👍
Being a quality manager at a CNC lathe shop I get to purchase a lot of gages. When I arrived 22 years ago there were several sets of these around. I wish there was a stronger word than hate. Now we use either tri-mics, Diatest split ball gages, or the amazing Sunnen bore gage. Measuring ID's well is expensive.
I have an old set of Starretts bought new, with essentially the same problems. I may use this opportunity to smooth things out. Wonderfully nice hardened materials, but really notchy to use. Usually engine builders use feeler gauges to check piston clearances. You should know where on the piston the mfg wants you to measure the clearance since pistons expand from uneven heating when in use. Air cooled cylinders may be choke-bored to allow for combustion chamber heat in the upper cylinder. Instructions for fitting new pistons to a cylinder on your engine would likely do just fine. Make sure to check end-gaps on piston rings to match cylinder bore so they are not too tight.
Tony, Glad to have you bring this up and what the fix is. I’ve owned a Starrett set for years and thought all telescoping gauges were “crunchy.” Crazy. Be well, Will
I've always wondered how you can get an accurate bore reading with gauges that are flat and not round or pointy??? Maybe we need to investigate this!!!
As an automotive engineer.. never used this kind of gauges. My tool is an internal telescoping dial indicator. Similar to your style but dedicated to engine diagnosis. It has a dial indicator instead of the screw-a-ma-thingy on top, and the anvils are more rounded (almost ball bearings) and they have on one side two spring loaded flaps, or another sleeve with two funky bearings to center the whole thing on exact diameter. And usually only one side is springloaded and with measurement to dial. The other side is just a threaded hole in the body and it comes with a full set of longer threaded extensions each with a ball shaped anvil and a locknut to finetune this fixed size. Mine can measure from 40mm up to 300mm with all those extensions. The length of the extensions is irrelevant since it's a dial indicator and will zero it against a known referece inside a normal micrometer. The dial indicator is most important to make sure you are measuring the minmal diameter of the bore. And for absolute measurement, i just set my nominal value in a micrometer and zero the dial while resting between micrometer anvils. Also is noted that the dial indicator has a very short travel (mine has 3mm travel.. around 1/8th inch) in order not to ding the surface while inserting the tool. This tools is suposed to be rocked back and forth to find the absolute minimum diameter. Tool is always diametral (springloaded flaps/bearings), and the rocking will find the true plane of the circle you are measuring (by watching the dial and stop as it starts the other way). It's doable with your setup but not optimal. Tool can scarpe the wall while inserting due to huge travel of both plungers, will not ensure dead diametral but it's easy enough to just feel it (self centering sort off), and it will cetrainly not sit in circle plane.. so this may need lots of rocking/locking/repeat.. and by the time is done you potentially done a few scrapes in the area you were rocking to find the correct value. Either way, for correct measurement, do at least 3 points vertically (near TDC where the 1st ring stop, about 20mm down form that spot where most powerstroke is done, and near the BDC to have a relevant wear on whole cylinder) and 2 diameters (on wristpin axis and perpendicular to wristpinaxis). If TDC value is way higher than the other two heights it's a sticktion/adhesion wear problem on 1st ring, if there is almost same wear at TDC and 20mm down, it's oiling problem (hone marks gone, lots of wear, bad diluted oil with gasoline). Feel free to ask me any question.
Now that you've de-burred them, they're only "Brown". You have removed the "Sharp". Just sayin...
More a gray than brown. Person who named them must be color blind.
Well what do you know, I came up with the same joke. So, we're both geniuses.
You comment right here. 🤣
@@ambsquared give it time.
So now it's the "Brown and Blunt" set of Telescoping gauges?
My dad was a toolmaker. When I was a kid I found his bag of gauges, similar to this, took them to my room and painted them to look like tiny robots that could punch each other.
At least he sees the funny side of it now. About forty years later..
Oh lord
I'll bet he was hoping you'd develop a different kind of interest in his tools.
😂😂😂Like scrubbing a cast iron skillet or Brillo pad scrubbing a car to clean it. Best of intentions, but oh boy.
What? Your dad doesn't like robots?
It's always a tragedy when a good instrument dies. When I was about ten, my uncle gave me a vernier caliper (in fractional inches, no less) and my Mom insisted that my dad grind the points off the nibs. We lied to her and said he had, and fifty years later I still have it. Machinists are kinda nerdy about stuff like that.
I used to try and use snap gauges for cylinder bore work. I used to ride dirt bikes. I could never get an accurate measurement either. I knew from my machinist training, that engine machinists have specialized bore gauges, but I couldn't afford those. I swallowed my pride and asked a guy at work. He had worked on radial aircraft engines at the Curtis Wright facility during WWII. He served in Korea. I always watched him real close, but he was kind of grumpy and intimidating. When I asked him about measuring these bores, he looked at me kind of funny, like I said something that smelled bad. He went and got a metal box he had squirreled away. He explained that trying to use snap gauges won't work. The wear patterns in the bore make an accurate measurement impossible. He told me to take his personal bore taper indicator. It's really old, but accurate. Let him know if it worked for me. This tool has a kind of 'sled' (not sure what to call it) that an indicator sits on. There are different length tips in this kit, that are used depending on bore size. A rod attaches to the device so it can be easily slid down the bore. I used it, figured out the proper dimension to bore it oversize. Worked great! The machinist, Donald Andrews (RIP), gave me the tool. I've used it countless times. He didn't think it was doing anybody any good buried in his tool box. I got to know him well after that. We became good friends. I get to tell this story about a quiet man that helped me out, every time I show that tool off.
Great story
It just feels weird when a This Old Tony video isn't 20 or 30 minutes long.
I was expecting him to re-machine the arms seeing how atrocious they were. I guess even ToT has his limits when there's an actual job to do 😜
Yeah, looked at the timeline to notice it was halfway done when i was gettin into ToT mode. Sooo i’ll be watching the other episodes, again, for the third/forth time.
Wierd times we live in man.... Wierd times
or it doesn't involve cutting pipes with scissors, and kittens shitting nuts n bolts
and isnt about tig welding
We need more of this during quarantine. Please, God Tony.
"God Tony" is a redundant statement; just call him Shop Jesus.
I'm confident that he was thinking about each one of us individually when he decided to record this one.
More auto related stuff pls.. TIA
@@leeterthanyou "I'm beginnin' to feel like a Shop God, Shop God"
Edmond Belliveau i think he is bald
Hey This Old Tony: First of all - thank you! I basically got into metal fabrication and welding because of your videos.
How about a shop tour video sometime?
yes please
Would love a shop tour. We don't need special edits for that. Just walk through sometime
I have asked for this too, I'm told it may be on the books later. Interestingly Tony said he moves kit about a fair bit, so it feels like it needs to be more than just a shop tour and more of a tour and mindset /process path video.
I second
Million sub special shop tour sounds about right to me
Take it apart in a gallon ziplock bag for when the springs go ballistic
Shane K speaking of ballistic, one time I took apart a tool, not knowing there was a spring, and the thing exploded! I swear the spring and a few parts must of ended up in orbit and are there to this day because I've looked everywhere in my shop and can't find em.
That's a good tip. Thanks.
You sound like someone who has done some gun smithing.
The problem is... I always pass out before I'm finished
That's how I take apart certain gun bolts. Just to be safe cause the shag carpet in my shop has enough small parts hiding as it is. No really it's a good thing to do .
Pro tip, when the surprise shooting spring threat is high, disassemble within a clear plastic bag. The bigger the better because if you can keep your hands way down in the bag while you disassemble, the springs have further to shoot to escape the bag. Drape a shop rag over the opening, hold it close to your chest, or do something else to try to minimize the opening.
One more pro tip for when you've already lost a part. Grab a flashlight and turn off the overhead lights. Get down on the floor and shine the beam nearly parallel to the floor. Any dust, dirt, chips, or parts you're looking for will now cast a very long shadow, making them easy to see. I think the beam also helps to focus your attention on a distinct area instead of taking in an overall picture. Try it, you'll be surprised how dirty your floor is.
Plastic bag!!! Well that's a great idea
Those Brown n Sharp gages look like they were made in the same factory as the ones you got for your 4th birthday.
Looks like ?counterfeit? B & S
I think they are offshore BS for sure
probably made with the same exact tools too. That's why the finish was so poor
With the same tooling and end mills LOL
I’m guessing counterfeit too. If they actually are real, that is some piss poor machining. I’d be pissed if I bought those I’d send them back
As I tell every new person in the shop, the difference between low quality and slightly better quality to good quality is if things are deburred. After deburring it's often all fit and finish.
Good overview of this "deburring" of premium tools to make them work right... I think I will break mine down and give them a once over just for sanity sakes, and because TOT did it.
A couple years ago I treated myself to a starrett 91B tap wrench. I'd been eyeing one for a while and finally pulled the trigger on one. It was brand new in the box still in the plastic bag. I was so excited I could barely contain myself. I brought it to work with me and wanted to try it so bad that I grabbed a piece of CRW (can't remember what) stock, drilled a tap hole and grabbed a tap. This is where my excitement died. I went to close the wrench on the tap and got a gut churning crunching sound from inside of it. I stopped what I was doing and took the wrench apart to find metal shavings all through the insides. It took me about an hour to clean them all out. It broke my heart to spend all that money on it just to have to pick up where they left off.
I had to make a new anvil for mine when it cracked about 1 month after buying it. That was my first and last Starrett.
I have a Starrett automatic center punch that works about a third of the time. A good whack against the table usually gets it working the rest of the time. Pulling it apart shows nothing too obvious, but my Chinese one works flawlessly.
@@matthewdupuis232 Put more bend into the spring!
Wouldn't this be covered under warranty? Here in Europe that would be the case at least. Maybe it is different in US or wherever you are.
And this is why I only buy used tools. They are generally cheaper because they are 'used', but as a whole, older tools are much better made... back when people gave a hoot about what they were making.
nowt wrong with carpet in the shop lol..........fancy eh.
😂🤣
And good on the knees
@2aesthetic4me sss It is interesting. ToT has even made some videos with/about/for Furze.
TOT: "We need to do what Brown and Sharpe failed to do" ME: "Wow, Tony is going to teach us how to end a prolonged labor dispute without destroying the company, and in about a minute of remaining video!"
TIL about the longest-lasting labor strike in US history.
He really is a master of his craft.
That comment right there. Oof.
@@SethKotta inorite, where is teh mic drop
Well, that would be an even shorter video. When you have a 100+ year-old company that is synonymous with quality precision instruments, you pay the people who make those instruments every penny they're worth and then some, even if it means your stock price dips for a month or two. People who need good instruments now go elsewhere at any cost and people like Tony will be one time customers, rather than the multi-generation customers B&S used to count on.
"Uploaded 22 seconds ago"
You're damn right I'm gonna drop everything I'm doing for a new tot video..
you're goddamn right
Did you say there's a new TOT video? I was very busy doing important things while working from home, but I'll set that all aside for some TOT! -- wait what day is it?
@@abu_khattab92 You are clearly someone who has been married for a while.
Hey @Coffee, manual sex doesn't count!
Whips screen with thumb but makes things worse...
Sorry I couldn't help myself.
Wow that’s crazy how unfinished those parts looked 😟
Right. It really is frustrating. You might as well buy cheap crap. Prob the same quality in finishing. Truly sad
I agree. That's disappointing. Maybe China ones are just as good.:(
@@LouSalamone As a new owner of some dirt cheap bore gauges, I can confirm this.
The cheap ones from HF were no worse
watch out for the "springen-sproingen."
and the partzgerflingen
This old Swedish Chef.
Those look about as well deburred as the hardened Starrett combination square head that i got a few years ago new. I could shave with the edges on that thing.
Then why didn't you Stefan? (Just kidding, my beard is longer than your stubble👍)
That is a shame. I have a set of Starrett snap gauges that are gritty also. I sent a brand new Starrett caliper back to the factory because the rack was made from two pieces and you could feel the transition between the two, could not stand it, it was better but not fixed when i received it back. I gave them away to a young man that was proud to own them.
I've noticed the same thing, Stefan. The quality just isn't the same any more. Unglaubisch bullenscheisse.
@@joecnc3341 Everything is a kit nowadays.
My hardened Starrett is just fine. But then I got it 1974 or 5. Had to wait about 6 months for them to come up in the production rotation. As to the telescoping gates. I've always thought they should have a bigger radius on them. Maybe a drilled out steel ball.
Problem is that I don't keep any light oil around. I tried switching to light oil but my family just doesn't like the flavor as much as a full fat oil.
I had some but my lights need a lot of it and I've used it all up.
@@WeighedWilson
I solved that. I just use dark oil
@@WeighedWilson : Yup, just can't get proper whale oil these days for the lamps.
I only have headlight oil sitting around
@@BrooksMoses Whale oil beef hooked.
"De burr those until you're happy, or you've given up" - I really like how realistic this is!! And can relate to it very well.
I bought a set at a used tool store years ago, no idea what they did. A few weeks later at work, I needed to figure a bored ID, not my usual kind of machining, and it occurred to me these things would work. Yep they worked. An old timer told me that is exactly what they were made for so he was less impressed with my brilliance than I was!
Only a machinist would buy a set of tools just because theyre old and well made even if they have no idea what they do. He who dies with the most and highest quality tools wins the game of life.
Tony, you're making me not want the quarantine to end. I'm loving the frequency.
I used to tell seasons by ToT releases. This is screwing me up. It feels like Summer 2023 right now...
You listening Brown & Sharp?! You’ve been called out! Shots fired by my boy Tony. And he always shoots true.
Wait, you narrate these LIVE?!
Dude, your commentary is so tight I thought you had to be doing like a scripted dub pass over your videos. You're a freaking super hero.
Well it's actually easy if you know what you are doing (havent tried it as in making youtube videos myself but noticed when I explain something, how it works etc) this is also how I choose to look "how to" or other sort of technical videos if it is dubed/scripted I assume that the one making the video doesnt really know what he is doing and just googled the basics for the topic of his video.
The amount of joy i derive from learning about deburring bore gauges is inversely proportional to the chance of me ever needing them. Such is the magic of ToT.
Surprisingly, there’s little difference between being happy and giving up.
The real story here is someone actually measuring piston/bore clearance on a 2-stroke.
When I had my old HD I used a tape measure for.
@@perrylc8812 You must have had a precision built HD. Usually just rattle the piston about in the bore and think "that'll do" 😄
eh, who cares. With modern Nikasil bores they rarely wear and when they do wear enough there's a ridge at the top thats enough to catch a fingernail on. The coating is very thin, any serious damage is noticeable with the eye
I just took the head off mine and mashed a sheet of foam down on it then measured the imprint. Turns out the 80cc bicycle engine I bought was really 200cc's! Until I remembered it's pi*r^2 not pi*d^2.
Aidan Gillett seems like I ran into a company that could reapply the nikasil coating on 2stroke cylinders. They specialized in old Yamahas , but I don’t think they were too picky about it.
Great call, TOT. I have a set of Tee gauges I bought over fifty years ago, and I always assumed the crunchiness was just a manifestation of interference between the spring coils and keepers. Now I know it can be fixed. I plan to clean them with mineral spirits, as alcohol has suddenly become precious in my house.
Every other TOT video: Here's a quick tip... 26 minutes later.
I feel like I've been cheated out of 20 solid minutes of meandering around said quick tip on this one. I have no recourse but to pull out my bore gauges and a stone. In protest.
“Shame we have to do this to ‘premium’ tools”. I bought a brand new set of B&S parallels- had to grind the 1/2” pair so they’d match. A brand new pair of B&S v-blocks I had to grind one side to put the vees on center. Went from referring to Brown and sharpe as B&S to just BS!
Were both V blocks off center by the same amount? What made you check to see if they were on center to begin with?
You probably ordered a set of perpendiculars accidentally.
B&S just isn't what they used to be. They lost quite a few of their older established skilled craftspeople during a labor dispute in the early 80's and it was more or less downhill from there.
That crunchy sound hurt my soul and my teeth somehow.
It was not ASMR that is for sure.
Had a set of moore and wright telescopic bore gauges they served me well for 30 years.they were second hand when i got them ,probly made in the 1940s keep up the good work
I just bought a new set of gauges and they're super crunchy. Thanks for the tips, going to fix them now!
Learning that you can pull these bore gauges apart and clean and do "Minor" rework on them. . . thanks! Now to go get some and see what needs to be done!
I was just thinking the same thing. I have a set of pure Chinesium bore gauges from Harbor Freight that could do with having a bit of poking and polishing...
Always amazing content. Even unrehearsed while wearing one shoe. My channel is growing slowly but surely, thanks to your inspiration!
TOT I want my money back on this episode!! You brought back one of those suppressed memories of mine. I was training a newbie on how to measure a bore. The first few measurements went fine, but then the lock got really tight on them. With some decent effort, it freed up. Unfortunately they didn’t realize that just the tip is the lock and inadvertently loosened the handle shaft.
The proper term for the “plungers” are “projectiles”. After that, it was just one of those bad days. To account for all the parts, I took apart another gauge to see what was in it. I can’t ever use my gauge set without noticing that two of them have different thread sealant on the handle shafts. You made me go look at them just so I could shake my head again.
I bought a set from harbor freight. After trying them only once with no good results I threw them in back of a drawer never to be seen again until I watched abom79 using them on a video. He, by far has the best method of using them with repeatable results I’ve ever seen. Now, thanks to him I didn’t waste my money. They were also very gritty feeling. I took em apart and cleaned em up and now they’re a good, frequently used tool. Finally, I can cut some precise bores.
I follow way too many channels, but TOT always grabs my attention first.
It's got to the stage that is 3rd season re-runs from the start in preference to watching new content on other channels .
You sir are what all educators, lectures and teachers should aspire to be, informative, educational, entertaining and able to hold the attention of your audience.
Stay safe mate, you improve the lives of 793k people on this Earth.
Someone once told me that This Old Tony’s videos were boring, I said, Yes, yes they are. You can now even measure how boring to a precise measurement 👌🏼
This video was burring.
@@kellerrobert80 so he could do boring
And the main reason I clicked on this video got answered.
And that is how the bore gauge actually worked. Seems like a fairly simple and elegant solution.
Never in my life do I anticipate using the information I have learned today.
Great video.
@Dan K very much
Isolation beginning to bite huh? Stripping and filing bore gauges . Same here, screw boxes in order, argon bottle finally strapped to bench, hell I've even swept the floor!
But did You sweep behind the press?
You could also order your gas cylinders alphabetically, once your are *really* bored: Argon, acetylene, carbon dioxide...
I had to finally sweep last week. Finally got tired of climbing up into the shop.
F. D. Um ... Acetylene *before* Argon ... 👍
@@f.d.6667 You had better check your alphabet, Acetylene comes before Argon;-))
Just grabbed a shirt, trying to support the RUclips creators that I enjoy the most.. your one of them!
Best Present ever. You posted this on my Birthday. After dealing with NO ONE because of the current Blah blah blah, I got this!!! Love your vids Tony. Admittedly I have watched all your videos. Thank you for the teachings and the laughs.
Why is it I enjoy watching Tony tackle machinist world problems so much! Anyway keep up the good work.
Premium precision instruments: now shipping with free RUclips channel content ideas.
I wish I watched this earlier. You have to try to post your videos before I need them. I mean, how hard can it be.
I bought a set of telescoping bore gauges from perhaps Enco some 10 years ago when I was first starting to throw my son's inheritance into this hobby. About a month ago I was annoyed by the "crunchiness" of their action so it took to disassembling one to see what I could do to fix the problem. Well, needless to say, I didn't pull up the carpet in my garage and now I have fo find a home for 16 boxes of spring wire and time to learn how to wind springs.
Finally up close, I get to see what Abom pulls out of his pocket and peels/pulls down( like he is about to break into a dance) out of a part. Then magically has a measurement. I knew I could count on you. Stay healthy and acne.
Just checked... my Mitutoyos are “Silver & Smooth”. Your video has belatedly relieved my premium purchase guilt! Thanks TOT!!
Tony, you where so close. The tee part is called a Boonsie swoop and the handle insert is called a Jutnumb bar. 👍
Thanks Ken! We need to preserve these industry names, otherwise we look like idiots trying to explain to the wife why it took two beers, I mean HOURS, to *fix* our precision whatsidoodles.
Careful about the language...this is a sorta family garage channel. Talk about repairing your precision personal whatsadoodie with the reverence it deserves!🤪😁😲😄👽👍😎
I just told my girlfriend "tot upload a new vid, talk you later, love you!"
I've the proof😭😂
Proof as her reply lol
Well let’s see/hear it?!
@@gearloose703 I was thinking more like proof as a black eye.
Don't you mean your ex-girlfriend?
Changed over from an imported set to a set of original Sheffield-made Moore & Wright single-plunger items obtained from a retired toolmaker up near Colchester. Light years apart in quality, the M&Ws are a trustworthy joy to use....
This crunching sound made my shop cat go on high alert...on my lap. Comfy.
It's sad how poor the quality is on many good names in tools these days... I've even seen Chinese Starrett tape measures recently... Sad.
I made the same point in another comment. Chinesium tools are not the greatest, but, for the most part, they are perfectly usable, and orders of magnitude cheaper than the likes of Starrett and Brown & Sharp. So the big names have to cut production costs to stay in business. I mentioned Stanley with their mexico production plant. Stanley tools are not what they used to be, but with a wee bit of a fettle they can be.
I was recently shown the faces of the anvils on new Starrett micrometers using optical flatness, they aren't flat!
@@aserta B&S was a pillar of machines and tools in Providence for decades until the 1970s. Where the domestic and European competition got fierce. Margins slowly and surely went down and CEOs made some bad decisions. Japan quality started to rise. Labor union issues and cost of living kept rising. Don't forget that B&S was a fierce competitor and may have caused the demise of many machine tool companies itself. There is customer loyalty but when another product at half the cost does the job then you can't compete. Just my 0.02.
P.S. My unknown vintage Starretts work just fine.
More sad, some of the Chinesium is actually acceptable.
2:28 And here I imagined ToT ASMR was a patreon exclusive.
Its better than his only fans exclusives to be fair.
Did you predict the future here....
@@chazphot It literally happened haha. Perhaps he saw my comment but that was a quick turnaround!
So glad you took on this small project, I have wanted to attempt it in the past every time I reach for mine. Now I feel I have what it takes to be successful.
Thank you Tony!
You know, one thing I love about the videos you make is the tools you use. Back in a Small Engine class in highschool, we learned about these various measuring tools while we learned about tearing down a single cylinder Briggs motor, and reassembling it. I haven't touched, nor heard anything about the bore gauges in years. Back then I wasn't too keen on learning anything so I never fully understood how to read an analog Micrometer but seeing this has brought back those memories and kind of makes me want to buy some of these just to measure random stuff around my home.
LOL. I just said out loud (gasped really) "oh! Tony Video" and my family looked at me funny.
Do I know what a bore gauge is? No. Will I watch the video? Absolutely.
Tony, I like the way that you think, organize, investigate, analysis, process and explain. 👍 For Tony.
I am a blacksmith (advanced hobbyist) but your videos over the years have opened up a whole new dimension to my home-work-hobby Thank you very much, Sir.
Thank you for showing how to disassemble them. Mine have always bothered me, but I was reluctant to take them apart because I didn't know the procedure. I'm guessing that Mitutoyo telescopic gages are better, but they are also $170 for a six piece set.
E Designs my new set of mitutoyo are just as crunchy, was severely disappointed.
@@karlkunkle9233 That is interesting, maybe manufacturing has moved from Taiwan to wherever is the cheapest this week.
@@karlkunkle9233 I'm surprised to hear that. I have the utmost respect for their products. You saved me some money, and I don't blame you for being disappointed ;-)
Surprisingly insize are well finished
wow, this is the earliest I've been to TOT in a while
Quarantine things
My father passed down 3 Starrett bore gauges to me. probably bought in early 70s. They are still silky smooth and work great to this day.
I've had this problem for years but never had the khunas to take them apart. I'd used expensive ones supplied by employers and when I became a contractor I bought cheap (ish) Draper ones and assumed the roughness was "built in". I think the roughness also affects the operation to a degree, so now I will attack the little beggars, Thanks! PS. I shall slightly warm the thread-lock as that reduces the chances of damaging the parts especially the small ones. Please keep the great videos coming I've loved them all,
Do they still lock firmly or did you just make another set of slippy gauges? What makes the other set slip?
tinncan is the real MVP asking the real questions instead of subtly brainwashing "premium vip deluxe expensive items gooood, china baaad"
I've got an ancient pair of snap gauges that are well built, but they still slip if you try to use a ratchet thimble or clutch on the mic. The trick is just not to do that lol.
The locking pin dimensions likely determine how well they lock. If the point of the pin is too short, the smaller rod won't lock unless you tighten the piss out of it.
Seems to me that the roughness would help them lock.
Yeah, I thought the rough finish might actually be intended on the floor of the keying slot at least, if that is smooth and the whole thing is oiled as well I can see it needing a serious tighten to hold properly.
Finaly the weekend makes sense.
I have to say that this amazing comedy channel is also pretty good with tools and machines, love it.
While only a ~7-minute video, it had a good hours worth of entertainment value.
Why does my brain keeps repeating the word "Mitutoyo" over and over again?? Oh .. it wants me to be happy ;)
I was thinking the same. I have two sets, Starrett and Mit, and the Mitutoyo is what I reach for every time. I want to love Starrett, but they're just not made as well as they used to/should be.
@@davidb6576 how accurate do you think you can be with this gauges(mitutoyo)? i am in the market for something to measure bores, hobby ofcorse :D
@@kosir1234All inferred/transposed measurements are up to the skill of the operator, but second hand Mitutoyo set in good shape will last your lifetime.
"First the corona virus, now I have to rip up the carpet in my garage.." Colin Furze 2020..
This video couldn't have come at a better time for me. Just got a set second hand with some surface rust and tried to tear into them...knew they come apart, but was afraid of bending/breaking them. Thanks This (not so) Old Tony...you are a scholar and a gentleman.
So... you made me rush out and dismantle one of my inherited seventy year old Moore & Wright bore gauges. I have always been happy with them; they certainly lock OK, (only have one moving anvil). Guess what... they have had minimal use, and they too have a slightly "gritty" feel! :o(
I'd never noticed... you've broken my heart!
Mine did not need deburring, but as with yours, the pin-slot has been made with an end-mill or similar, resulting in uneven walls. If the slot had been made with a keyway cutter, it would have been smoother on the walls, but would have needed stop-pins or holes at the ends. Alternatively, a shoe in the slot would be good, but either way, would you pay for the finished product!
Keep up the good work... we need you in these times.
The B&S's sound like my cheapy Chinesium set.
My cheapy Chinesium set has both sets of problems, don't lock properly without insane levels of force, and the plungers are crunchy.
For sure will skip this brand! ONLY OLD TOOLS, like TOT
:))))
How are we to know with certainty that the B&S instruments aren't also made there?
Nowadays, they probably are just the same. Just labelled differently.
@@QuadMochaMatti if they work smoothly lmao
As simple as those things appear to be, I’m surprised he didn’t just fire up the lathe and make his own set from scratch. Future video maybe?.
It's the chrome plating. He could easily make a nifty set if he cared to spent the time, but they'd rust because blueing isn't gonna get it for that kind of tool, and for some reason nobody even entertains the option of nickel plating even though its dirt simple and effective.
@@somebodyelse6673 Hard Chrome plating (not just "flash chrome") beats the hell out of nickel plating as far as wear resistance is concerned. FWIW, Starrett telescoping gauges aren't plated or stainless. They are made of tool steel though, likely containing a fair bit of either chromium or nickel. (They will rust, but not easily.)
I'm still waiting for the diy gauge block video.
Also oil is a thing that exists still.
I too was amazed. Not what I have come to expect from this channel. He should also build many additional jigs and tools to build them.
I would just go back to the tried and true.. I have the exact same set in the blue vinyl case and they have worked great for 30 years. In this time of covid 19 your videos are goto vids for virtual school. Great job!
Where i used to work i had a telly gauge jam on me one day so i loosed everything up and still couldn't get it open. Finally i gave it a little tap on the wooden bench and bang off all the parts went!! Found everything but the spring, fortunately i kept the gauge because a year later at Christmas we were having a big clean and in all the swarf (chips) under the work bench there was the spring. 20 years later its still going strong!!
I also worked with some animals who would tighten them up so much they dented the bottom face where the anvil lands.
Was there any 'brown' in there that needed to be dealt with - too?
Having brown stuck in a tube is always a problem.
Heh, you beat me by 41 minutes :(
Says Sharpe right on the package. Guess you were after the Round and Smoothe model.
Ya, get the Brown and Smooth next time. Feel like there is a joke here.
Thank You!!! I’ve had a set for quite a while and have wanted to smooth them out to perform better.
Hats off to you good sir for this demonstration on safe disassembly.
👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks a lot for these videos. You singlehandedly made taking my courses in technology and metrology on university a couple of times easier
0:02 "Just the tip and only for a minute."
"Trying to measure my cylinder wear" thats what she said.
Diamond file bonus tip: They cut in any direction so they work great in a tight spot where a regular file wouldn't cut effectively.
Being a quality manager at a CNC lathe shop I get to purchase a lot of gages. When I arrived 22 years ago there were several sets of these around. I wish there was a stronger word than hate.
Now we use either tri-mics, Diatest split ball gages, or the amazing Sunnen bore gage. Measuring ID's well is expensive.
I have an old set of Starretts bought new, with essentially the same problems. I may use this opportunity to smooth things out. Wonderfully nice hardened materials, but really notchy to use.
Usually engine builders use feeler gauges to check piston clearances. You should know where on the piston the mfg wants you to measure the clearance since pistons expand from uneven heating when in use. Air cooled cylinders may be choke-bored to allow for combustion chamber heat in the upper cylinder. Instructions for fitting new pistons to a cylinder on your engine would likely do just fine. Make sure to check end-gaps on piston rings to match cylinder bore so they are not too tight.
I don’t know I you can hear what I’m feeling 🤣
Tony, Glad to have you bring this up and what the fix is. I’ve owned a Starrett set for years and thought all telescoping gauges were “crunchy.” Crazy. Be well, Will
Just want to say I really appreciate these shorter and more often "update" video during this lock-in.
"How ragged that slot is"
I thought this was a good christian channel
Eerie. Just this afternoon, I thought to myself, "I wonder how these work inside" Was that premonition or coercion? And on whose part?
Always a pleasure watching your videos! Knowledge combined with humor is best for good entertainment!!! Love it!!!
You know what I hate about your videos? You don’t do enough of them. Thank you for doing them.
I could feel them with my ears, and it tickles, stop it!
I've always wondered how you can get an accurate bore reading with gauges that are flat and not round or pointy??? Maybe we need to investigate this!!!
The ends of these gauges are rounded
Great recommendation for fixing. I have encountered this problem before, now I know what to do to fix. Thanks Tony.
A Thumbs Up from that guy that deburred his deburring tool. The struggle is real my friend.
So you're saying, we should not trust tools just because its a name brand? That branded tools might be garbage?
*Gasp* I was lied to!
what used to be good years ago, might not be good today... sadly.
I’ll be back again to read the comments about 6:11
As an automotive engineer.. never used this kind of gauges. My tool is an internal telescoping dial indicator. Similar to your style but dedicated to engine diagnosis. It has a dial indicator instead of the screw-a-ma-thingy on top, and the anvils are more rounded (almost ball bearings) and they have on one side two spring loaded flaps, or another sleeve with two funky bearings to center the whole thing on exact diameter. And usually only one side is springloaded and with measurement to dial. The other side is just a threaded hole in the body and it comes with a full set of longer threaded extensions each with a ball shaped anvil and a locknut to finetune this fixed size. Mine can measure from 40mm up to 300mm with all those extensions. The length of the extensions is irrelevant since it's a dial indicator and will zero it against a known referece inside a normal micrometer.
The dial indicator is most important to make sure you are measuring the minmal diameter of the bore. And for absolute measurement, i just set my nominal value in a micrometer and zero the dial while resting between micrometer anvils.
Also is noted that the dial indicator has a very short travel (mine has 3mm travel.. around 1/8th inch) in order not to ding the surface while inserting the tool. This tools is suposed to be rocked back and forth to find the absolute minimum diameter. Tool is always diametral (springloaded flaps/bearings), and the rocking will find the true plane of the circle you are measuring (by watching the dial and stop as it starts the other way).
It's doable with your setup but not optimal. Tool can scarpe the wall while inserting due to huge travel of both plungers, will not ensure dead diametral but it's easy enough to just feel it (self centering sort off), and it will cetrainly not sit in circle plane.. so this may need lots of rocking/locking/repeat.. and by the time is done you potentially done a few scrapes in the area you were rocking to find the correct value.
Either way, for correct measurement, do at least 3 points vertically (near TDC where the 1st ring stop, about 20mm down form that spot where most powerstroke is done, and near the BDC to have a relevant wear on whole cylinder) and 2 diameters (on wristpin axis and perpendicular to wristpinaxis). If TDC value is way higher than the other two heights it's a sticktion/adhesion wear problem on 1st ring, if there is almost same wear at TDC and 20mm down, it's oiling problem (hone marks gone, lots of wear, bad diluted oil with gasoline). Feel free to ask me any question.
Show off lma0
You do a great job of explaining the problems so many people overlook, such a great teacher. Thanks T.O.T.