The Seven Pillars of Wisdom was actually written twice. Lawrence lost the first manuscript, but immediately drafted it again from memory. It's a wonderfully drawn, personal account of his journey. One can well understand why Lawrence became so blood thirsty after this incident in Daraa.
Dan Berkey,what other book of Lawrence is a good one to read please!,I’ve read”A leaf in the wind”I love it because it was a story,I don’t want to read about him in Saudi Arabia”thanks”I been to Lawrence’s grave”overwhelming being there,and the church where he had his Service”Phenomenal”I’ve also seen the Trolly his Coffin was on”Lawrence has ALWAYS intrigued me,special place in my heart.❤️❤️
When I was fifteen, and living in West Wales and first drinking in pubs, I met a man who had served with 'Ross' in the Royal Tank Regiment in the early 1920s. Though they never spoke and it was never openly said, everyone knew that this man was T E Lawrence. I'd seen David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia and this mighty poem had instilled a kindred affinity with its subject. I never doubted the old soldier's narrative of his experience. He was old and had the air of truth, so I have had an encounter, once removed from the great man. Lawrence was many things, one of them a poet and a poet's account of his history is greater than its atomic facts and so an amalgam of what is and what should be, not necessarilly what actually was.
A remarkable man. Having served in the British Army, I worked alongside hundreds of officers. The majority were just career officers. Only a handful of occasions did I work with someone who was eccentric, different. Someone who was a deep thinker, but also a quick thinker. Friendly, warm, commanding, gentle and a thug when needed. I would have loved to have served alongside Lawrence. Rest in peace.
I heard of a book I would like to read but couldn’t find “Mailed Fist” by John Foley. I think it describes bravery of British officers standing in the line of fire oblivious to their own safety.
In his letters to some of his close friends, Lawrence did write he was raped in Deraa. Then he recanted. This also explains why he killed the retreating Turks.
A lot of people since his day have been curious about his sexuality . It's a shame really as in a way it has in part created more discussion than what he accomplished throughout his life. His was an extraordinary life and all that he wanted after the war was to be left alone and given some privacy . He seemed to thrive on it actually and he enjoyed a simple life with few possessions and money. His motorcycle (s) , his music, poetry, reading & writing, his bike,his life at Clouds End and the company of the few friends he found the pleasure in sharing company with. Whenever a reporter would show up he would hide , be evasive with their questions or if given a heads up that one was coming would leave. . He certainly didn't want a movie made about his life and intervened through some influential friends not to have one made. This was well before Peter O'tooles performance in 1962.. I believe he suffered from what we now call PTSD , shell shock back then and can certainly understand why after everything he went through.The thing about Lawrence is that everyone has an opinion about him and they all may be right or all wrong. All these years later the man remains an enigma and to some that's what fascinates people.
@@degsbabeI'd say any serious trauma that includes sexual abuse on top of what T.E. Lawrence experienced during the war would be considered PTSD . Like most things around Lawrence we will probably never know and myself, like so many others can only imagine . All the best my friend.
that academic Palestinian .. an Oxford ....considered T.E.Lawrence ...a person that could put ...the Arab head dress and then be with the British...? Others considered that aspect. With indifference...? lately I read..The War with Palestine...and that Oxford fellow...whom said ...that ,,Lawrence...was ..racist...?.....
Lawrence wasn't to blame if his body responded to the rape. It was something completely out of his control. Women sometimes get an orgasm when being raped (which is why they feel shame) but how our bodies respond to different stimuli is something we can't really control. 🙄
I think it was in his book that I learned that there was a Turk who threw men into a large furnace. And he would listen for the sound of the skulls exploding .
Wow... horrific, fascinating. It's said that those who came before our generations, were more tough... I'm not sure. Yet, they certainly seem more brave and cunning. Well, hard to use this example, this is T.E. Lawrence were speaking of here. ☀️😎🇺🇸☀️
In Robert Kaplan's book "The Arabists" he writes that Lawrence exaggerated this incident. Still, I imagine this scene has many times been committed in real life on true innocents. May their misery be redeemed and their souls be received in the next world.
Whether he exaggerated the incident, it did affect him, and this was noted by those around him. Whether he was 'just' sexual abused or raped the once, for that man, at that time (when sex was a very taboo subject) was enough to have a profound effect on his life from there on in.
Sounds a little like Lawrence was a bit of a masochist. Many British boys who went to school in those days were rather masochistic their entire lives or sadists. Maybe that's why they were the kind of people many of them were. I had no idea Lawrence was so blunt about the sexual pleasure he got from this experience. I always thought it was just a rumor much exaggerated over time. It almost sounds like something me off the porn of those days, like "Fanny Hill" or "Story of O".... or of course the writings of Marquis de Sade,
According to some of the men he served with, Lawrence always preferred to do recon himself, A) because he wanted to gain first hand knowledge of the area and B) because he preferred to put himself in danger rather than risk someone else's life.
From the film, I always thought that he had been raped by the soldiers, but it seems by what he described that he was tortured, which was a terrible this. 😢
There is a soldier's diary entry that seems to indicate that Lawrence was driving in Akaba at the time, however this evidence has been discredited by Jeremy Wilson (the date it was entered was not the actual day it occurred). It would be very odd/careless of Lawrence to lie about being in Deraa on November 20th if he'd been in Akaba/Cairo at the time, given that there would have been multiple people who could have easily disproven this.
If I remember correctly, Lawrence's entries for these dates were ripped out of his diary. The question is, why? It doesn't seem likely it was because he wanted to try and blot out all memory of the incident, because he later wrote about it in such detail. Was it because those entries could have proved that he wasn't in Deraa?
I really admire Lawrence and what he did as well as the man he was. Although I do not think this ever happened or at least in the way his words portray . I think few if any man could have accomplished what he did in that war.
During World War I British servicemen who were taken prisoner had to reveal their sufferings to the military intellient serrvices. Their testimonies are now in the National Archives. Lawrence's alleged miisortunes re not there: an otherwise zealous and diligent officer would not have shirked this duty.
HI No it's not! Read ' The Hadj' by Leon Uris! And my own brother was nearly kidnapped in Aden by Arabs at the age of 14 [ and very young and handsome ] during our stay there after we were shipwrecked on our way to Australia in 1958. Shalom to us only in Christ Yeshua
Not unsurprising in Turkey. It's gay in the mind of the Turkish military to be 'screwed' by a man, but if you're the one penetrating, you're straight in their view. In their mindset: the other man is the taking the position of a women - the penetrated.
Alot of people commenting how he was a sexual deviant after or during the war. So you know PTSD makes you hypo or hypersexual. Yes it wasn't a diagnosis before it was just much recent that psycologists included PTSD signs are but not limited to "shell shocked", violent tendencies, lack of sleep, sexual deviance and of course suicidal tendencies to name a few. So saying T.E. Lawrence suffered after the war is an understatement.
Yep there's a definite possibility he became more sexual after the war (prior to his service his life wasn't as documented since he was like anyone else and cared for his privacy clearly). Hence why there's less public records prior and after service.
Given the stigma that a male rape victim would have faced when this was written (loss of reputation, the assumption that he was weak for not defending himself, that he was homosexual etc.), why would he have made this up and shared it with the world? He had nothing to gain from fabricating a story like this.
Because it increases his fame and attracts sympathy when he has long gone. Plus don’t forget there would be no stigma attached because his alleged experience was totally out of his control and direction according to his story. The wounds he would have physically suffered, especially in those times and in that environment, he would have likely contracted other diseases and medical issues associated with his injuries resulting in possible death as a consequence, none of which he mentions. Listen to the whole ‘experience’ again and then tell me you would not require urgent immediate professional modern hospital care to stop these side effects occurring. The Man was a Narcissist. This was just another story to cement his name
@@GRACEORTLawrence was the most famous living person in the English speaking world before he even wrote the book. By the time he finished it, he was shunning fame, not seeking it. He did seek medical attention, I believe from Dr Marshall at Akaba. After being stabbed, flogged more than twenty times over ten minutes, severely kicked in the ribs etc his wounds would have been serious, but not necessarily life threatening. He was able to walk and ride afterwards. Stigma against male sexual assault victims persists to this day, and would have been much worse in Lawrences day. Elements of his account are consistent with what is now known about experiences of sexual assault: he seems to describe dissociation, involuntary arousal, and physical numbness, and heightened startle responses immediately after. Having read hundreds of Lawrence's own letters, (written from the time he was a child to just before his death), as well as the accounts of dozens of people from all walks of life who worked with him or were his close friends, I've found nothing to indicate that he was a narcissist.
It's obvious that T.E. Lawrence was gay and he got his sexual satisfaction from being beaten.,which he did later on as a civilian from young men. How else would one give such a detailed explanation of this so-called torture.
@@omerkaraman7564 The incident ocurred. Some of the details may be skewed, and the editor did tell him to tone it down a bit, but a significant amount of evidence points to it being real.
The Seven Pillars of Wisdom was actually written twice. Lawrence lost the first manuscript, but immediately drafted it again from memory. It's a wonderfully drawn, personal account of his journey. One can well understand why Lawrence became so blood thirsty after this incident in Daraa.
Dan Berkey,what other book of Lawrence is a good one to read please!,I’ve read”A leaf in the wind”I love it because it was a story,I don’t want to read about him in Saudi Arabia”thanks”I been to Lawrence’s grave”overwhelming being there,and the church where he had his Service”Phenomenal”I’ve also seen the Trolly his Coffin was on”Lawrence has ALWAYS intrigued me,special place in my heart.❤️❤️
He wrote, The Mint about his time in the RAF.
When I was fifteen, and living in West Wales and first drinking in pubs, I met a man who had served with 'Ross' in the Royal Tank Regiment in the early 1920s. Though they never spoke and it was never openly said, everyone knew that this man was T E Lawrence. I'd seen David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia and this mighty poem had instilled a kindred affinity with its subject. I never doubted the old soldier's narrative of his experience. He was old and had the air of truth, so I have had an encounter, once removed from the great man.
Lawrence was many things, one of them a poet and a poet's account of his history is greater than its atomic facts and so an amalgam of what is and what should be, not necessarilly what actually was.
Lawrence died at age 45, I believe.
Viewed through the eyes of a 15 year old, Lawrence might have appeared old.
@@Gypsy1194 That and going through the heat and active serving as a spy likely ages you.
How old are you
A remarkable man. Having served in the British Army, I worked alongside hundreds of officers. The majority were just career officers. Only a handful of occasions did I work with someone who was eccentric, different. Someone who was a deep thinker, but also a quick thinker. Friendly, warm, commanding, gentle and a thug when needed. I would have loved to have served alongside Lawrence. Rest in peace.
I heard of a book I would like to read but couldn’t find “Mailed Fist” by John Foley. I think it describes bravery of British officers standing in the line of fire oblivious to their own safety.
@@david2284180 'The Eton Fist' is an insightful read, it explores the sadomasochistic homosexuality common amongst the English officer class. 💐
@@Johnconno everybody's gay according to the left Amazing anyone had children
Thanks. It was the most interesting time, and I enjoyed your story.
@@Johnconno Thanks. I will find it, and read it.
In his letters to some of his close friends, Lawrence did write he was raped in Deraa. Then he recanted. This also explains why he killed the retreating Turks.
A lot of people since his day have been curious about his sexuality . It's a shame really as in a way it has in part created more discussion than what he accomplished throughout his life. His was an extraordinary life and all that he wanted after the war was to be left alone and given some privacy . He seemed to thrive on it actually and he enjoyed a simple life with few possessions and money. His motorcycle (s) , his music, poetry, reading & writing, his bike,his life at Clouds End and the company of the few friends he found the pleasure in sharing company with. Whenever a reporter would show up he would hide , be evasive with their questions or if given a heads up that one was coming would leave. . He certainly didn't want a movie made about his life and intervened through some influential friends not to have one made. This was well before Peter O'tooles performance in 1962.. I believe he suffered from what we now call PTSD , shell shock back then and can certainly understand why after everything he went through.The thing about Lawrence is that everyone has an opinion about him and they all may be right or all wrong. All these years later the man remains an enigma and to some that's what fascinates people.
Very Informative. But the man was viciously abused in Daraa. Much harder to recover from than mere ..'PTSD , shell shock...'.
A mystery is far more fetching than certainty.
@@degsbabe I'm a former soldier with ptsd. There is nothing " mere" about it...
@@jamesdean8669 I respect that. But I can't quite believe it compares to what Lawrence had to suffer .
@@degsbabeI'd say any serious trauma that includes sexual abuse on top of what T.E. Lawrence experienced during the war would be considered PTSD . Like most things around Lawrence we will probably never know and myself, like so many others can only imagine . All the best my friend.
What an incredible hero of a man.
Torture in Daraa. Somethings never change.
Would you rather be tortured in Pakistan or Guantanamo?
Flown there by the Americans or English?
Being tortured is the same anywhere in the world.
Thank you for sharing this. It is hard to hear but it helped my understanding.
Any way you look at it, T.E. Lawrence was one stupendous human being. He put many others to shame. May his memory always be bright.
that academic Palestinian .. an Oxford ....considered T.E.Lawrence ...a person that could put ...the Arab head dress and then be with the British...?
Others considered that aspect. With indifference...? lately I read..The War with Palestine...and that Oxford fellow...whom said ...that ,,Lawrence...was ..racist...?.....
I go to Lawrence’s Grave often as I can(Moreton Village Dorchester Dorset),and what an honour to be there,beautiful village to visit..
Lawrence wasn't to blame if his body responded to the rape. It was something completely out of his control. Women sometimes get an orgasm
when being raped (which is why they feel shame) but how our bodies respond to different stimuli is something we can't really control. 🙄
I think it was in his book that I learned that there was a Turk who threw men into a large furnace. And he would listen for the sound of the skulls exploding .
speechless.
Powerful writing, is that an exerpt from the 7 pillars? If so, I'm buying it! If not, what is it?
Wow... horrific, fascinating. It's said that those who came before our generations, were more tough... I'm not sure. Yet, they certainly seem more brave and cunning.
Well, hard to use this example, this is T.E. Lawrence were speaking of here.
☀️😎🇺🇸☀️
God poor Lawrence,what awful pain he was in,what Beasts they were to him*upsets me terrible*..🙏♥️🙏♥️
Caroline Smith Upsets me also Still remembered in 21st century rip to him Regards from Australia
In Robert Kaplan's book "The Arabists" he writes that Lawrence exaggerated this incident. Still, I imagine this scene has many times been committed in real life on true innocents. May their misery be redeemed and their souls be received in the next world.
Whether he exaggerated the incident, it did affect him, and this was noted by those around him. Whether he was 'just' sexual abused or raped the once, for that man, at that time (when sex was a very taboo subject) was enough to have a profound effect on his life from there on in.
He had scars all over his back from the beatings and torture. He didn’t lie about the rape that took place.
Sounds a little like Lawrence was a bit of a masochist. Many British boys who went to school in those days were rather masochistic their entire lives or sadists. Maybe that's why they were the kind of people many of them were. I had no idea Lawrence was so blunt about the sexual pleasure he got from this experience. I always thought it was just a rumor much exaggerated over time. It almost sounds like something me off the porn of those days, like "Fanny Hill" or "Story of O".... or of course the writings of Marquis de Sade,
Not what he said in the book.
Well, this version wasn't in the movie.
Theon Greyjoy idk if I’m crazy or not but I think George saw this at some point
why didn't he just send someone else to gather the needed intelligence? I did like how the sergeant had to pleasure the bey because TEL was too bloody
Exactly. It appears that at that point he made the nearly fatal error in believing in his own mythology. I think that his mind fragmented.
According to some of the men he served with, Lawrence always preferred to do recon himself, A) because he wanted to gain first hand knowledge of the area and B) because he preferred to put himself in danger rather than risk someone else's life.
Valid & astute notes ref tribal ascendency still unchanged in "far Arabia"
From the film, I always thought that he had been raped by the soldiers, but it seems by what he described that he was tortured, which was a terrible this. 😢
Thank you
Incredible.
I've read that the date that Lawrence gave for this incident, he was documented as being in Cairo. So, who knows?
There is a soldier's diary entry that seems to indicate that Lawrence was driving in Akaba at the time, however this evidence has been discredited by Jeremy Wilson (the date it was entered was not the actual day it occurred). It would be very odd/careless of Lawrence to lie about being in Deraa on November 20th if he'd been in Akaba/Cairo at the time, given that there would have been multiple people who could have easily disproven this.
If I remember correctly, Lawrence's entries for these dates were ripped out of his diary. The question is, why? It doesn't seem likely it was because he wanted to try and blot out all memory of the incident, because he later wrote about it in such detail. Was it because those entries could have proved that he wasn't in Deraa?
I really admire Lawrence and what he did as well as the man he was. Although I do not think this ever happened
or at least in the way his words portray . I think few if any man could have accomplished what he did in that war.
During World War I British servicemen who were taken prisoner had to reveal their sufferings to the military intellient serrvices. Their testimonies are now in the National Archives. Lawrence's alleged miisortunes re not there: an otherwise zealous and diligent officer would not have shirked this duty.
I have been in in derha four three and a. Half years
This is poetry
it is suprising the the muslim soldiers were ok with the leader's homosexual tendencies.
HI
No it's not! Read ' The Hadj' by Leon Uris! And my own brother was nearly kidnapped in Aden by Arabs at the age of 14 [ and very young and handsome ] during our stay there after we were shipwrecked on our way to Australia in 1958. Shalom to us only in Christ Yeshua
@@toosiyabrandt8676 Sounds pretty 'fantastical'
Ever seen a Prison movie? Male Rape seldom has anything to do with sexual orientation.
It's about Power. And shaming the Victim.
Not unsurprising in Turkey. It's gay in the mind of the Turkish military to be 'screwed' by a man, but if you're the one penetrating, you're straight in their view. In their mindset: the other man is the taking the position of a women - the penetrated.
@downunderrob Yep rape rarely is sexual attraction (it does exist but often it's to dominate and lessen someone by 'breaking' the victim).
Oh ive lerned allright trust your own peaple
Alot of people commenting how he was a sexual deviant after or during the war. So you know PTSD makes you hypo or hypersexual. Yes it wasn't a diagnosis before it was just much recent that psycologists included PTSD signs are but not limited to "shell shocked", violent tendencies, lack of sleep, sexual deviance and of course suicidal tendencies to name a few. So saying T.E. Lawrence suffered after the war is an understatement.
Yep there's a definite possibility he became more sexual after the war (prior to his service his life wasn't as documented since he was like anyone else and cared for his privacy clearly). Hence why there's less public records prior and after service.
If it was the Czar and his family Anastasia and her sisters would have been in Lawrence's position poor Lawrence would be forced to watch
You can understand why he was considered one of the Great Storytellers. This account being such a thing. A marvellous Story of his imagination
...or a fluent recollection of a real event
Given the stigma that a male rape victim would have faced when this was written (loss of reputation, the assumption that he was weak for not defending himself, that he was homosexual etc.), why would he have made this up and shared it with the world? He had nothing to gain from fabricating a story like this.
Because it increases his fame and attracts sympathy when he has long gone. Plus don’t forget there would be no stigma attached because his alleged experience was totally out of his control and direction according to his story. The wounds he would have physically suffered, especially in those times and in that environment, he would have likely contracted other diseases and medical issues associated with his injuries resulting in possible death as a consequence, none of which he mentions. Listen to the whole ‘experience’ again and then tell me you would not require urgent immediate professional modern hospital care to stop these side effects occurring. The Man was a Narcissist. This was just another story to cement his name
@@GRACEORTLawrence was the most famous living person in the English speaking world before he even wrote the book. By the time he finished it, he was shunning fame, not seeking it.
He did seek medical attention, I believe from Dr Marshall at Akaba. After being stabbed, flogged more than twenty times over ten minutes, severely kicked in the ribs etc his wounds would have been serious, but not necessarily life threatening.
He was able to walk and ride afterwards.
Stigma against male sexual assault victims persists to this day, and would have been much worse in Lawrences day.
Elements of his account are consistent with what is now known about experiences of sexual assault: he seems to describe dissociation, involuntary arousal, and physical numbness, and heightened startle responses immediately after.
Having read hundreds of Lawrence's own letters, (written from the time he was a child to just before his death), as well as the accounts of dozens of people from all walks of life who worked with him or were his close friends, I've found nothing to indicate that he was a narcissist.
That’s funny. Btw how did the choice of your username come to be?
الصور التي التقطت الى لورنس بدرعا
It's obvious that T.E. Lawrence was gay and he got his sexual satisfaction from being beaten.,which he did later on as a civilian from young men. How else would one give such a detailed explanation of this so-called torture.
He detailed it because it affected him for the rest of his life. It was a crucial moment.
@@UnpleasantlyPeasantly is this incident actually occured ? or T.E. Lawrance made it up as a sexual fantasy of him?
@@omerkaraman7564 The incident ocurred. Some of the details may be skewed, and the editor did tell him to tone it down a bit, but a significant amount of evidence points to it being real.
So what if he was*you sound so JEALOUS OF HIM..🙄🙄
It's obvious if you yourself are gay and find the man attractive...