Tool Test: 135 Split Point VS 118 Standard Point Drills | WW253
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2019
- Do 135 degree split point drills require spot before drilling to prevent walking?
Word on the street is that they don't! Let's put that theory to the test by pitting 135 degree split point drills against 118 degree standard point drills!
We'll test two different sizes [3/16" (4.76 mm) & 3/32" (2.38 mm)] of each drill in both 6061 aluminum and 1018 mild steel. Then, we'll bust out the metrology tools and measure for size and positional accuracy. I wonder who's going to walk the walk...
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The word on the street is wrong. Split point drills were designed to be used without a pilot hole, not to cut more accurately.
is that why split point bits have a thick web to increase stiffness?
@@ypaulbrownif you split a thinner web, you lose a lot of tip strength
Your test methods were not good enough to make any sort of actual conclusions. This was more a comparison of individual drill bits than it was a comparison of the two drill types.
Go to 9:24. That's basically what he said.
@@arminkeller It's certainly not reflected in the title of the video.
May be different in helix angle between the two drills. Steep angle walk less but perform bad on deep hole.
How close are the drills to spec? That's why they make reamers.
To get a better measurement of true position, drill a hole, then use a Co-Ax or test indicator to find that hole’s center. Then you can compare the machine’s position to the intended hole location in your program. That should eliminate variables like pin slop and size variation in your measurements. Enjoyed the vid!
This months most controversal nycnc video ;)
LMAO!
Controversy is good sometimes :)
greetings from America
I wonder why they kept silent on all these comments.
@@derinteriors Thats a hourlong job that somebody has to pay. I can fully understand that.
@@StefanGotteswinter well if you're in the full time RUclips video business like them they are you're not getting paid for anything else. Own it and learn so you can be better. Feels like a filler video in order to maintain weekly revenue going and not true to theirvfans.
What are the results? They mentioned using metrology but didn't post the numbers. They didn't specify why they chose the feeds and speeds that they did. No stick out measurements, no description of drilling cycle, and no spreadsheet. You need input from experts at major drill manufacturers that have R&D lab test results so you compare if your Tormach Mill test is accurate.This isn't the quality evaluation that we've come to expect from NYCCNC. Drilling properly is so important that I think more research and detailed analysis is warranted.
I also would love to see a spreadsheet of results, and a follow up on if that 135 was a bad grind or not. "Was a few thou out compared to 5 or 6 thou" doesn't really satisfy the itch that I thought this video would scratch. Is that the top of the hole that the position is out? Or the bottom of the hole?
Interesting comparison, would like to see more testing on this one. Video seemed to hint that the 3/16 split tip might have been a dud grind
Amazing videographic analysis👍 thank you
Hello, Could you make short video or a BOM of the chip cover for the Z? I originally made one but prefer yours to mine, thanks in advance.
You need to put some tape on the gauge pins so we can see it moving /going into the hole
The drill point angles are almost always only different for harder/softer materials, 135 degrees is more suited to stainless steels.
I actually work with stainless\heat resistant steels (X10CrNiTi18-10 the one i run now) most of the time on my lathe,so 135 without split but with "S" shaped point is kinda good,sometimes i grind on special grinder,sometimes it's free hand. Depends on steels' gumminnes if i can say so.
It's actually good (135) if u have a stub drill for short holes.
What is the CNC equivalent of a center punch? Is it a centering bit?
ut oh, Project Farm meets NYC CNC !
Did you rule out the straightness of your used bits?
Be nice to see a "real world " test without a fogbuster at 120psi. Love your channel keep up the great work!
How is this not a real world test. Why would you do this without cooling? This is a CNC channel you realise. Not a drill press or battery drill channel.
@@gusbisbal9803 let be just ask.... what VMC do you own? Not work on.... OWN.
@@kendesign3622 You know, when you get a question you have a weak answer for, what you do is you change the subject, and you answer the question with a question. You should try that.... oh wait.
(If you have something to say, say it. If not you're looking for an argument)
gus bisbal this is a real world test
@@kendesign3622 Pretty weak comeback. And totally irrelevant.
Nice informative video. Thanks.
I don't want to sound like an ass, but you guys are better than this video.
which tool has the lower temperature, 130 or 118 degree
FWIW, years ago when I worked in the process equipment field for a well known global manufacturer we solved a similar accuracy issue by undercutting the first 4mm of the drill OD when the hole needed to be "right" every time, spotting was still used and the undercut allowed the location and size to held, drawback was naturally the special bit modification vs off the shelf tooling.
So true !
try the same test with larger drills that have a more pronounced chisel point. Those tiny drills have such a small chisel point that there is less reason for any wobble on entry.
Why are the 118 uncoated and the 135 TiN coated?
Also the 135 points should have an increased feed rate of ~ 30% over the 118 points.
~50% feed increase with the TiN coating vs the uncoated.
You don’t HAVE to increase speed. The coatings allow increased feeds and speeds.
Coatings can effect drill performances as well. I noticed that the two tools differ in coating,
That's true. Don't run a TIN coated drill in Aluminium. Aluminum and titanium have an affinity to each other, which leads to diffusion processes and thus increased friction.
In addition, the Tin coating is quite thick and prevents a sharp edge, which is used for Alumnium.
@@Suzaru87 Any insight on using it on brass? (copper + zinc)
I guess, from what you wrote that on bronze (copper + tin) we should not use Tin coating. ?
For brass, coating or no coating? Or, you can say "I don't know". :)
Dan L. Cobalt or carbide non coated
When you tested with the spot drill. What diameter did you spot to?
Edge Precision
Id also ask how true was it in the holder before you drilled the holes in each.
That spot should be at least as wide as the chisel if it's actually going to do anything.
What is your go to for drilling, 118/135 spotting/no spotting?
I would have like to see an analysis of the actual drill bit size and runout. I also would have liked to see a more apples to apples comparison by using as near identical drills as possible with the bits themselves coming from the same manufacturer. You should reach out to norseman drill. I bet they could get you some good bits to compare.
You should take a look at your 3/16” split point with that fancy tool presetter you have too see if the grind is even on both flutes. I would guess they are uneven based on the oversized holes and burr.
This! What is the point of that tool if they don't use it for something this obvious.....
Would be interesting to see witch drill would preform better if you grind the flutes slightly off center... to simulate a hand grind
This is CNC. It’s not likely they will use hand ground bits, likely a CNC sharpener.
I've been told that you should use just a 80° tip for aluminum, 118 for mild steel and 135 for harder materials.
What also matters is the flute angle: steep for soft materials so the chips can get out better.
I've been told that 118° works fine for normal(mild steels) and harder materials. And for softer stuff(aluminimum) 130° is better. And i've been told the same thing about the flute angle. Steeper ist better for hard stuff. And it makes the edge stronger and not so grabby in brass for example so you dont have to dull your drills before you use them.
@@MrLembnau u've been told wrong, 130° will reduce the load on the tool since the cutting lips are shorter... everything ''works'' in mild steel and aluminium
@@traitretrudeau2367 And for brass?
Dan L. 118. As soon as you get some hard stuff, 40 rockwell C and over or some stainless and nickel alloys could benefit from a 135 drill
Interesting comparison, but if you're looking for tolerances < .005" in size and location, then spotting, drilling undersized and reaming would seem more appropriate. Expecting any twist drill to create a hole on dimension is asking a lot. Especially after some use or resharpening.
They were testing the differences between the types, not absolute accuracy.
It looks to me like the 3/16" 118° drill seems like it has a higher helix angle than the rest.
What about carbide drills ?
Aluminium has a tendency to stick to tin coatings, especially when you don't flood cool.
Are the drills from the same manufacturer?
You can visually see the steel one move down in the vice xP
Was that a fresh drill or same drill into steel as Al? (I was thinking similar that the Al had fouled the cutting edge.
TiN coatings are designed for aluminum and non-ferrous metals ... it has lower affinity for welding than uncoated does.
It only sticks if you’re not putting enough of a chip load into the tool and you end up rubbing.
The following is what I understand to be true when using TiN in aluminum. I have read the same recommendations elsewhere and this reflects what I've seen when using TiN coated cutters in aluminum.
www.ruko.de/en/blog/tin-the-titanium-nitrite-coating
"Can I use TiN in aluminum?
Restricted.
Chemically speaking, titanium has a special affinity for aluminum. During the drilling process, under the influence of pressure and heat, chemical and physical diffusion processes are triggered especially at the cutting edges and in the chip flutes. These processes cause aluminum to bind into the coating, aluminizing the surface of the drill. This leads to an increase of friction between the tool and the material. At the same time, chip removal or chip discharge is so decisively impaired that further work becomes impossible.
For this reason, you have to use cooling and machining aluminum is only possible with stationary machine tools using forced liquid cooling."
Nice work.
The accuracy of the ground point on the drill will change the diameter of the hole ‘ meaning , how centered is the point.
I would like to see the same test run with larger diameter drill bits without pilot holes.
its hard to say that its strictly geometry if you arent grinding them yourself. go get a darex drill grinder, those are awesome for playing with drill geometry
I only use YG DLGP195 at work, works great. Even in 316 stainless. And they are pretty cheap
I´ve seen such problems because the Drill bit was also too long , when you see a wobbling
f/s were off, chip not breaking due to rpm too high. ipm was fine, nothing outta the ordinary. 3k rpm on those little drills at such modest speeds? why? slower imo, you'll then get the chips that you should.
Did you measure the diameter of each of the drills? That's just as important as wobble.
Is it possible that the 135 degree Split point drill was Tin coated they run under way others speed like an uncoated ? Or was is just a cheap one which was painted Gold to look like an expensiv drill ? And who uses 2019 in production HSS drills they are way to slow . I think with tools from a better company like Gühring , Sandvik , Mitsubishi the test would be better for the 135 degrees drill you need to make a second video :)
From which company were the drills ?
I would like to see more drill specified companies. Like widia and maykestag. Heck doing a compilation of all of these companies would be amazing.
Ex gold is the go to at my shop for drills without thru spindle coolant
You did not show that the tools were bang on so what have you really shown.
You should try OSG EX-SUS hss-co drills they work great .
virtually any name brand tooling supplier will have good drills. i've been using the house brand from the industrial supplier pts. but ya, the cobalt ones are worth the minimal increase in cost. anything that goes to production i'll do with carbide, but everything thats in my personal index has been switched to hss co at this point.
A couple of observations: 1) Very likely the larger 135° was not ground correctly. I would like to have seen an extreme close up of the tip. 2) It appears from the chips that PERHAPS a 135° could be run at a different speed or a feed for a better cut... Interesting video though.
Thought the og only reason to use 135 was for harder steels.
yup, he tested a tool hes not supposed to use, 118 split point would have been a more useful test
Also for plastics that have a tendency to crack. The shallower angle wedges less
Exactly. Nice to see you caught that. 135 is for harder metals. Since they require a tone of pressure to get the big going the angle was made wider to prevent walking.
Why doesn't this video even try to explain the actual difference between the 2 bits?
Let alone which brands were used.
Why no spot drill comparison too?
140 degrees are my favorite. No need to spot, just send it. Seems more stable upon entry into the material. I’ll drill through a part and part it off leaving the raw stock in a path with remnants of the drill cycle, adjust the stock for the next part and send the drill again. I’ll do that with 3’ long bars of material. No walking of the 140 drill.
I believe a split point drill is designed for no spot drill the non split point is better with a spot drill. I think the 118deg VS 135deg is more for material type being drilled and how it likes to cut.
The quality of the grind on the drill has more effect on hole quality than the style.
Have had good results drilling 17-PH with coated solid carbide 135 degree, onsize holes and all no spotting... But on a swiss with high pressure coolant :0
Very interesting , too many variables at this test, usually only 1 variable at the time otherwise ,,Who is the Culperate,, further more love to see you,re conclusion , greetings piet !!!
Who makes the best drill bit?
Collin McCallum Guhring
dont use TiN coatings on aluminum, they will weld and oversize your hole after the first couple inch drilled
True. I prefer Uncoated drills in aluminimum. Its not like your tools wear out super fast anyway. and we are just talking about some holes.
You're using a mechanical drill press what kind of walking do you expect?
thats what I was thinking he is measuring individaul drill bit detsils
drill bits are not meant to be used for accuracy or precision. Using a pin gage on a drilled hole is basically useless as the snaked (helically drilled) hole, even if oversized badly, will feel tight on the pin gage of the same size. A small diameter pin gage will flex to try and fit the oscillated bore
Go on your tool suppliers website and get recommendations speeds and feeds then check it again....boosh!
walking is much more apparent on larger drills because the chisel point is much larger. Try a 1/4" or larger jobber drill. Of course machine rigidity is a factor. Drilling in steel is worse. You are also mixing walking and wandering at times.
This is not accurate. Walking is due to a ration of drill bit thickness to stick out.
@@gusbisbal9803 Sorry, but I don't agree. That is wandering which causes out of round holes. Split points don't help wandering. They do help walking.
@@juliejones8785 please define your difference between wandering and walking. It sounds like you are defining wandering as drill bit run out.
@@gusbisbal9803 Actually I would describe run out as the drill bit not being straight and concentric, which will cause an out of round hole. What I a trying to describe with wandering it the drill bit following a not straight path through the material caused by deflection as it penetrates deeper. I'll try to find some references as I am just using my memory from machinist school.
I have so many questions after watching this, but I'm mainly thinking that you'd get a more consistent result using a brand that make high quality drills across there entire range. Those didn't look like high quality drills to me. I pretty much only use drills between 130-140 degrees and the poor quality holes you were getting is definitely because of the drill quality not the point angle.
Hey very interesting video with some very educated comments too.
Guess after over a 100 years of drilling steel man has settled on 118 degrees for a reason ? Very interesting anyway 👍🏻
My holes are not critical, I have used a hand drill and got within .010" of an inch. I find that 1/8"or .125" walks all over the place, but I have an arm and wrist that can and will move. My final drill would be 3/8" or 1/2" as I walk up on my final drill size. On a Haas where the arm is rock solid and weighs over a hundred pounds it's not going to move, period. Being perfectly square to the work and the drill arm is not going to move I would still would be leery with an 1/8" drill, but with a 3/16" I am more confident that it will not walk. I would be more surprised if a 3/8" or 1/2" drill walked at all. Try a carbide drill and see what happens before mine flex's it will shatter, just a thought. Thank you for your time. Later.
Split point works great with 304
The part moved at 3:57
Did you guys check runout on the drills before you started?
They tell you that runout was checked within the first minute.
@@thegribbs He didn't get that far into the video.... ;)
beautifull!
Interesting video, but as noted in these comments, it doesn't seem like this was a well-controlled experiment.
Position accuracy requires center drilling.... Precision on diameter =drill point , material, drill length drilling style speeds and feeds. Drills always Over cut. Ream to size ....Interesting trivia the idea that speed kills comes from the cutting tool industry"..... Great subject matter .... Peace
I think you mean spot drilling. Center drills are for drilling lathe centers.
Cheapo 135s...try OSG EX-SUS-GDS or feeds and speeds are not the best. Kinda makes the test null and void.
OSG SUS drills drill on size every time all day everyday .
I have to agree, I use Triumph Twist drill "Thunderbits" on a manual machine, and they cut better and require less feed pressure.
want to see bit walk, try a chinesium drill press, they'll dance a jig and probably snap off :))
Still interesting.
Just use carbide and be done with it. They even have tight tolerance drills so you dont have to ream.
Never seen a carbide drill that would eliminate reaming. Maybe for certain applications you meant to say.
@@chuckphilpot7756 nope I meant eliminate. I use them everyday
@@anthonyjones657 The is not a 2 flute carbide drill in the world that will eliminate the need for reaming or boring in all applications. You just have very relaxed surface finish/circularity/true position callouts.
@@anthonyjones657 I agree, they can solve alot of situations but there are most definitely situations where they will not work. I am glad they work for your situation however, that saves a ton of time for you I'm sure!
They are 3 flute made and sold by gurhing
First, realize that drilling is a roughing application
If you want a hole "On size", you should drill undersize, then ream the hole
If you want a hole on position, you drill undersize, and then BORE for location
If you want a hole that is BOTH, the proper way is to drill undersize, then bore to STILL undersize, THEN ream, preferably with a "Jig bore reamer"
Life is full of complications, eh?
Phiwise_ yeah. If you want super accurate stuff, talk to the guys who run/used to run jig bore machines
That is true. Later.
“On size” is relative to the tolerances of the part. A drill is more than adequate for +\- .005 in size and position. A good drill will hit +\-.003 without an issue
Reamers and jig borers are only needed if you’re talking a +\- .001 or tighter.
@@occamssawzall3486 Yeah, but if you are going to do vids of size and positions of holes...
try it on a lathe with chinese collets
When you're dealing with crazy true positions you really should spot when using a 135 drill. I do it no matter what.
I stick with standard positions when drilling so I can avoid having a spotter. Threesomes aren't really my thing.
Why can't drill bits just drill an accurate round hole? Life's never simple. Thanks for a great video!
My new Drill Doctor only sharpens to 118 degrees, glad to know I am not losing anything because of that.
If you're not drilling hard metal you don't need 135
I guess Tormach is outa Z way covers even you guys don't have one...
Tip: to nail both position and size, drill, then, plunge with an end mill and finish with a reamer.
Drill for rough, bore for straight, ream for size.
This is an excellent demonstration of how to convince yourself of something when you haven't considered even half of the variables which could completely change the outcome. Please read the masterpiece How to Lie With Statistics. It's an afternoon read and teaches you how to spot the logical errors people use with statistics, and how to avoid making them yourself. It's not a master class, but it's an excellent overview.
if you have to drill accurately, i will usually use a carbide drill, or a drill bit i've check the bend in and then reground with an aggressive split point.
We got you the first two times. :D
@@danl.4743 lol from my desktop it's been doing multiple posts lately. I usually catch it and fix it
@@salvadorebertolone lol
Why dont you try it on a dewalt cordless drill 120v. I mean come on, most drilling gets done out in the field on a job somewhere. You guys in the shop or with fancy drill presses dont need a split point drill bit, you have a drill press doing all the precision drilling. Give me a break
You should not be using coded drills when drilling aluminum
now try peck drilling with an end mill
Huh?
@@danl.4743 peck drilling with a center-cutting end mill, should be very interesting to see if the hole is is on size like it should be.
It's a thought. Later.
IMO unless you using a solid carbide/thru coolant carbide drilling without a center drill is a bad idea. Note I work mostly with stainless and super alloys. Even with carbide there are situations where I still use a center drill. With correct feeds and speeds 135 drills perform very well in stainless steel compared to 118. Often I'm drilling 6 to 8 times D. The bellmouthing and locational issues are on a level I would expect to see after 100's of holes in stainless. I would try a different drill manufacturer.
just spot each hole, why not?
I guess if you do sub part work or don't really know how to hold spec. Don't spot drill worthless test.
If you’re going to spot - Cobalt and hss drills should be spotted with a steeper point (120-130 deg for the 135 drill) to control center position. Carbide drills don’t handle the shock of having the edges catch before the tip so you have to spot with a shallower point.
So spotting the 135 with a 140 shouldn’t have changed anything.
Well stated. This is crucial when spotting.
The spot drill angle should always be larger than the drill point angle.
That ensures the center tip engages first and is guided to the center of the spot.
or chisme point..thinning the web...removeing the hook..oh forgot..cnc guys
I just found out that I make a living drilling wily nilly style. Shucks.
yournot gonna see walking with a drill press
That's a really good test . Personally i am not a fan of split point drills .
This is not a replacement for a proper DOE. Great test otherwise.
ever heard of a Stub drill?
Well, I learned absolutely nothing here.....
135 degree bits are overrated I’ve been told over and over
How good they are faster drilling etc. they are shit any depth to a hole
They’ll burn up at least in 1018 maybe there better for stainless or exotics?
Save you’re money 118 are the standard for a reason there overall the best hands down.
Yeah testing , on real materials
Not to be rude but you guys have a habit of buying cheapo tools. I've seen plenty of discount split point drills that have a butchered grind.
All these drills are too long anyways. I would have used a Spot Drill on principle.
He was trying to force drill walking I think.
the mighty stubby win's again lol
metric system
laundry basket
failed test
first
Don't forget to put that in your resume.