With ticket prices and the way that LiveNation/Ticketmaster have such a tight grip on live shows, the entire system needs to fail before there’s any improvement.
Back in the Pearl Jam rant days, TM was just a parasite draining an extra $20-30 bucks from every ticket buyer. Now TM is the goddam Galactic Empire and we're just serfs and servants in their factories
Some tried but the people voted against their interest. Those people put in ace a supreme court that ruined the chevron ruling that took any teeth from the government coming down on monoplolies like a live nation. Line Kahn the current head of the ftc tried but was unable, but once again the people voted against their interest. Now we're entering a new guilded age where the wealthy corporations are going to get bigger and richer and continue to fuck us.
For big bands its like that. Go see some local originals, buy a cd you'll never listen to but wants the live scene to grow. Small indie bands struggle here
3 дня назад+74
"When a mother can turn on the phonograph with the same ease that she applies to the electric light, will she croon her baby to slumber with sweet lullabies, or will the infant be put to sleep by machinery?" -from John Philips Sousa's 1906 document "The Menace of Mechanical Music"
This is beautiful. "The baby won't care, I bet it can't even tell if the lullaby is coming from a speaker or its mother". That's obviously rediculous, but it applies to live music as well
There’s a heart-to-heart connection with the mother to the child when she sings with her own voice you will not replace that. There’s also an intention in the mother’s heart when she sings to her baby that she cannot replace with a machine either. You cannot take both of these experiences away from humans. You can, but I don’t be the same
It depends. Back in the '80s, there was a band with a drum machine fronted by a guy named Steve Albini so powerful they might have taken you out of a performance by blasting you back onto the street outside.
@@YTPartyTonight well was it written with a drum machine in mind? if so, that's completely different, because that's a conscious decision and is part of the sonic aesthetic from the outset.
When I found your channel I was a teenager with big rockstar dreams and a band of dudes that have all moved away and got day jobs. I hold on to my music as I clock in for my 9 to 5 in IT. I play a show or release a song every once in a while but it’s never felt like it used to. It’s frustrating that this world of great live music seem like it’s dying. Thank you for keeping it alive Rhett. I will always look up to you for that.
I feel ya man. I'm older than you but have accepted that if I want to write and record music while playing the odd show AND have a family I had to join the rat race.
I saw that post. I agree with you 100% . He's also completely missing the point as to why we go see bands live . The spontaneity. Something different than what we've already heard. As a player, I can't imagine how boring it would get playing to the same stagnant track every night. The crowd would see it too.....because they do care.
@@headwinded1948 respectfully disagree. People like what they hear but they do not necessarily know "why" they like - so in a way they don't know, but they do. We as musicians, actually playing, know how to give/get that extra 10% in a live setting. Sure, you can "get away with" full backing tracks and digital rigs and it will get you 90% of the way there - but that extra 10% is where the magic is. Unless you're playing arenas or stadiums, people can tell whether they really know it or not. At arena/stadium level, you're hearing everything mic'd up or direct in to the PA and not hearing much of the stage - so you can do backing tracks and/or digital rigs with a silent stage. But do that at a small/medium club where the drummer is the only one playing on stage, and that front row of the audience is only going to hear the drummer when they're near the stage. Small and medium sized gigs/venues, where most musicians are playing, benefit from a full live band.
This. I grew up seeing (and playing in) punk and weird/experimental indie bands, where the joy of a live performance is the unpredictability. You hear things you didn't hear on the recorded version - it's an extra treat. And sometimes the performances were technically awful but entertaining in another light (sometimes crossing into comedy). It's the interaction between human beings that makes live performance more special than just having someone play songs to you. We're musicians, not DJs.
People totally care unless they’re going to a pop show for teeny boppers or to see certain bands like KISS who are known to fake their playing and people go for the spectacle. People can tell the difference in the way the songs are played and want interactions between band members and the crowd. I challenge the person who created that post to use a backing track to replace some of the live musicians night after night. He’ll find the crowd thinning out very quickly. He’s gonna be less profitable. He’d be better off performing a solo gig without a backing band than using backing tracks - because people who go to shows want authenticity and live music.
Saw Seal a few years ago in St. Pete, FL. With my wife. She was a complete Seal fan. He had a single guitar player, but a complete band-in-a-box. We left mid way through. It was essentially Karaoke. Mechanical. Lifeless.
That's sad. I mean, I get that he's not a huge draw like he was in the '90s and probably can't afford to have a string section, horn section, etc. But he can't at least bring a drummer, bass player, and someone to play synths/keys for the other parts? I've seen people play guitar to backing tracks, and I agree, it feels lifeless in most genres.
I have to completely disagree with what the guy said about nobody but bass players care if you don't have a bass player live. The bass player is the absolute most important person on the stage. (Then again..... I'm a bass player. 🤔)
They’re coming for us. We have to stand strong, bother. 😉 The irony of him being a drummer, when drum machines have been a thing since the 80’s, wasn’t lost in me.
@chrismn601 Hahahaha! Yeah. Very true. I used to play with a drummer who didn't want to play to a click track. I told him that I had a drummer named 'Al Esis' who could lay the tracks for him. After a few threats to his ego, he nailed the parts to the click. I then brought in an 80's Alesis drum module to show him who could've done it. 😆
I’m fine with having a bass player if the bass player knew their jobs. If not you better believe imma back track them myself since hell you gotta be better bassist then me if you’re playing with me.
@@redcomn That statement can cover a lot of ground. More than once, I’ve upset a guitar player by asking them if they’d like me to show them how to play a part.
So right, Rhett! It is harder and harder to make a living any more doing live music. I hope things change with the leadership change in our country because people are having a tough time just making ends meet. Even churches are filling in their musicians with tracks. However, there is nothing like it as a musician when you interact with other musicians and that is where the best creativity is born! Canned music is also a killer of improvisation. I like to hear new music and not covers of old tunes that are exact copies of the original. Sure bands that do covers live like The Analogues are cool and have a place in music doing exact copies of the Beatles, but they go to fantastic extremes to make it all live! Love it! It wouldn't be the same using a track!
Working cover band guy here. I gig a decent amount (100+ shows a year in 6-8 states). I’ve noticed the heavily tracked bands in our circuit have been losing crowds while we’ve continued to grow with a classic 2 guitar, bass, drum kit setup. We run tracks for maybe 30% of our songbook (random keys, horns, effects), but the idea of tracking an integral instrument to the band ex. bass is lunacy. People notice and can feel the difference with a band that sounds full and is actually playing live. I think authenticity (in a rock band environment especially) is really important to the overall experience of seeing a cover band. People love the songs cover bands play because of the bands and musicians that created them; cutting out members for a track loses that real experience.
100%, I think you nailed it. Having backing tracks for special parts that happen rarely is perfectly fine. And shoot, if everything you do incorporates some electronic pieces, then great! But when you replace things that are core and foundational…for profit or ease? No thanks. Even with my favorite bands if they lacked a member would be harder to enjoy. Understandable if there’s unforeseen circumstances, but it feels wrong to think they are merely swappable pieces.
Yep. No one wants to carry around $30,000 worth of percussion instruments and horns -- and the musicians to play them -- that are each used on one or two songs in a 20- or 30-song set. That's a perfect use of backing tracks. (To clarify, by "'percussion instruments" I don't mean a drum kit. I mean stuff like congas, bongos, tympani, etc. Stuff that your drummer can't play because he/she is too busy playing the actual drum part on the song.)
God, I hope you're right. I've accepted the fact that the golden age is over and has been for a couple of decades. But I want those who still carry the torch to be able to continue (I'll just quickly go past the 'cover band' thing, I need to adjust my attitude - at least you're playing!). And it not be just trustafarians and really, really poor musicians who still play. I know what we do needs to be for an audience to work. And I hope those audiences have their bullshit detectors well tuned. If they wanted to listen to backing tracks, they could go to a discotheque. Teenyboppers aside of course, they have been treated like sheep since Sinatra's people paid young women to scream at his concerts. But real musicians, people who want to be creative (even the cover bands!) are precious. I'm past the point in my life where I'd go touring. I had some success in the 80s, but not enough to pay for luxurious touring busses and guitar techs, so at my age the thought of touring fills me with horror. Sure, I'd enjoy it if all I had to do was play but as I said, my success, proud of it as I am, is just not at the level where I'd get big enough audiences to pay to make it liveable for an old bloke. Anyway, I digress. I really hope audiences are spotting the nonsense and not putting up with it. Maybe that's the good side of this cassette and VHS nostalgia, which I always lay shit on? We ditched those as soon as we could, just because it's analogue doesn't make it better! Yes, I know it's workflow, but a little bit of discipline and you can have that workflow with a sequencer that does audio, you just need to set your own limitations. I don't mean to be disparaging. Cover bands, particularly what used to be called 60/40, used to be the refuge of the same sort of people who want backing tracks because it's cheaper but I get that it's a way for actual musicians to play these days and I'd probably be doing it myself if I were 25 years younger. Good luck with it.
One of the main thing a working-band like yours has going for it is the live musicianship. Maybe I'm not the average live-music-attendee, but personally I think half the fun of seeing a cover band is hearing musicians that are good at their craft and can jam and have a good time. Bring the vibes! And I think the same can be said for working bands that aren't doing covers - being flexible musically is just one of the big strengths of smaller bands - and having all the basses (pun intended) covered, and played by real people is definitely essential to achieving that.
"Race to the bottom" is a good way of putting it. I understand the sentiment from the person posting though. If it comes down to making a profit or not making a profit, and you have other people in your life to think about, then backing tracks might have to be the way. Obviously the ideal is to have a full band on the road and play live shows. That's the way we all want to see it. If your 19 or 20 and that's your only responsibility then go for it and live in your van. If you're 35, married with a kid or two, and your tours are making less and less money you are faced with a tough choice: Go the backing tracks route or quit, get a regular job and do music as a side hussle so your kids can go to the dentist.
When many gigs are only paying the same amount of money that I made back in 1978 (literally), it's difficult to justify much. How music (live and recorded) became so devalued in the marketplace is totally heartbreaking. Today's average "fan" will stand in a packed room or even arena to watch a DJ...???!!! It is definitely disheartening.
I'm starting to think part of the devaluation came from the musicians not putting on a special enough show to make people want to see them no matter the price... Especially over the last decade. With putting half the show on tracks, we're kind of devaluing ourselves
@@josuastangl7140 The catch is that putting on a special show that gets people coming back these days especially takes a lot of money, time, and effort. Everyone's got time and effort, not a lot of money circulating tho. In an ideal world no one ever has to ever settle for backing tracks, everyone just shows up and does everything for free. The problem is no one is willing to do that, even at the amateur level. And they shouldn't be expected to tbf. No one expects you to go work for free, you shouldn't expect that from musicians either. Too many people feel entitled to musicians work and performances. If you want a show without any backing tracks start making one, stfu, or go offer to learn and play the parts then provide your own gear and show up and play them for no pay. If you can't do that then you shouldn't complain about backing tracks. Or just make your own music, but then normies and hobbyists would find out recording and making and album is just making backing tracks lmao it's classic, so annoying but a classic none the less
@@josuastangl7140 Most of the audience can't tell if *replacement* tracks are in use. Augmentation and "sweetening" tracks? Yes, because it's obvious there is no string orchestra or African percussion section on the stage, but even then a big chunk of today's audiences don't care - they're too busy streaming their experience live to social media, along with much of the audience. It's more about "look at where I am and what I'm doing" than "this is so good, I have to share it with you." Spectacle sells, so Carrie Underwood had her flying pickup truck; Tay-Tay (on the Push Play tour - aptly named?) had the flying "B Stage" that lifted off and took her back to the main stage; all the wardrobe changes, video, moving lights and lasers and pyro... it's all about putting up an experience that can't be replicated on a phone or even in a home theater. The live concert industry is back to doing dog and pony shows because everything else - the songs, the dancing, the general nature of a performance - is all over social media before the first show is over. Did musicians do this to themselves? I don't think so. It started when commercial radio stations became less and less relevant to the popularity of a song, artist, or genre. As far back as Sony's Walkman, digital portable players and the record company and publishing company concerns about digital piracy, to the smart phone and streaming. This broke the record company business model. Not having radio to "break" new songs and new acts, not having control and accounting over physical media sales, all new to them. They saw the train coming and decided to take a nap on the tracks instead of working up a new business plan. The result is that musicians are even more screwed than they were back in the good old days.
As the sound man for a classic rock 3 person band who are very good players, most of what I notice is people probably under the age of 40, don't know the genre or care that a band is even on stage playing, they gather in a group together and talk to each other for the entire time they are there, the music is simply just background noise. The older crowd that did grow up with the songs on the radio or who had the albums etc. Do very much appreciate and engage with the music and the band. We do about 30 gigs a year, definitely not for the money, we split it 4 ways, all have jobs that provide for our families. The younger crowd in general (there are exceptions) just barely care, and are just there because their friends are there, and they have a lot to talk about. Honestly its amazing how much and for how long they can talk.
this sums it up, for me: The Elwood Blues I know once said that no pharmaceutical product could ever equal the rush you get when the band hits that groove; the people are dancin', and shoutin', and swayin'; and the house is rockin'!
Not a pro, just open mics, solo with guitar, but you are right. I don't drink but after playing a set I feel really buzzed. Audience response is like a drug. To me that is the heart of my love for playing music for people. I play at all-acoustic and full-band-option open mics. Sometimes people use tracks but it is not pro and may be their only way to show their talent if they don't have a band to back them. At your level i am ambivalent. When you get to a stadium level gig, yea, full live set, people pay for that. I too want LIVE players if my ticket is expensive (lets destroy tickiemaster) but not at the corner bar with 40 seats, no cover. When bar receipts and tips pay the band that is a real thing, as you know. I have seen Moody Blues and Procol Harem with full orchestra and Keb Mo with solo guitar. Bar players with just a simple drum machine. Street busker musicians as good as any of them (Dovidas). All great. To each his own if it allows you to play and make a living. But I understand it is a real situation for those who cannot play solo too. Much like banjo and mandolin orchestras in the last century and movie theater piano players when the 'talkies' came along. Many continued to play but with a new instrument. That may be the future.
This is my ultimate pet peeve! Learning a craft, creating Music, can Never be Milli Vanilli. Music is Spiritual. Even if the general public IS clueless, They DO notice Less power & impact in the music they pay too much to witness Bring back LIVE MUSIC, before it completely dies!
I am a working musician - I agree with you BUT it would be a HUGE saving not just a couple of hundred bucks at the end of the tour...... Thats the temptation.
Personally as an independent artist, I play with backing tracks not because I want to make more money but because I don’t have anyone I can play with live. I record and play everything myself already but I hope someday soon I can play my music with other people.
I feel you on this. I even tried playing live with backing tracks hoping other musicians would like the music and come play live with me. Eventually had to pack it up as shows were costing too much. Would I have preferred live musicians with me? Absolutely. Could I afford to pay them a competitive rate? Not a chance. Producing music has become a black hole for my money and I am extremely thankful that by God's grace alone, I have a job that covers this cost.
Whether they realize it or not, people will ALWAYS prefer watching live musicianship over a pre recorded track at a live show. Yes, sometimes tracks have to be a part of it, but if you gave people the option to choose, they would always choose to see the music played live on the spot.
A good example of this is Ian Brown from the stone roses did a tour last year with just a laptop. People who bought tickets were unaware that he was doing this until they arrived expecting to see a band lets say it didn't go down verry well. As the word got out a lot of people didn't go. On top of that the tickets were still the same price as going to see a band. So it was watching someone do karaoke of their own music
"People don't care" - until they do. The nobody cares and nobody will ever notice person in the group what ruins so many things that started out great.
I’m a singer/songwriter. It’s hard t put a band together, t keep it together and t get paid. Rap artists sing t tracks and pack the house. Most casual fans don’t care imo.
At the other end of things you had John Mayer selling out arenas for his Solo tour where people knew if was just him and a guitar/piano and had an amazing night.
I write and record all my music with the mindset that I would want it to be performed live with as minimal of a band as possible. But that’s still 4 people needed to cover guitar, bass, drums and keys. I couldn’t see ever having anything less except for an acoustic gig.
Supporting yourself outside of your music is what most musicians do once they learn the economics of the road. To a young musician, that's a hard pill to swallow. But for a recent retiree like me, it's quite liberating. My correct decision to do it at age 21 has been reaffirmed throughout my life more times than I could count. Why? Because I don't have to perform to put food on the table. And now I can enjoy performing on MY terms. No contracts, no deadlines, no commitments. I stay as booked as I want and I'm not beholding to anyone. I sleep in my own bed every night and don't live on truckstop food. You seem to equate silent stage performing to mailing it in using backing tracks. The two are NOTHING alike. Backing tracks are like singing to the jukebox... or karaoke night. But I assure you, I still play my guitar on a silent stage. The only difference is less gear to carry and quicker setup/teardown. And people who say gigging with electronic drums is cheating, or is easier, have not gigged consistently using them. Learning how to express yourself with them is a challenge in itself. I'm not at all worried that live music will ever be replaced by backing tracks. Over and over again, young people see us play and their mouths drop open. Not because we're that magnificent, but because they're witnessing live music up close for the first time. And, often, they approach me during break with all kinds of questions. I try my best to foster their interest. Their reaction tells me the future of live music is bright.
I never comment on videos anymore but have been a “silent” supporter of yours for years now. I can’t believe the timing of you releasing this video. I quit a good job to give my dreams a go. I was a full time musician for the past almost two years now. It was sustainable right up until it wasn’t and I made the decision to go back to that job with a much better schedule that allows for me to still gig, network, record, etc. Even with that good schedule it’s tough to get past the feeling of “failure” at times. To hear your thoughts on that specifically was very helpful and I had to let you know you reached someone and made an impact. Thanks 🤘🏼 Ps. Totally agree on that mindset being trash.
@brannondurkin9522 I had to make the same decision as you in 1976. When Disco DJs replaced club bands I saw the writing on the wall. I metered that feeling of failure you mention against the reality of being able to make a living, as gigs became almost non-existent. Now that I'm retired I don't regret going to work in the printing & later IT worlds. I have a ton more benefits than I'd have had if I'd tried to 'beat a dead horse'.
Totally get it. Just remember how many amazing musicians have 'failed'. Count me as one of em. With that being said, if you can still make records and play gigs who says it has to be done for a living? Most of the bands we loved growing up would also be 'failures' if they didn't have the record companies marketing them to us. My guess is there are thousands of amazing artists out there who would be 'successful' if they had the money machine of the majors behind them. Maybe you're one of them? I think there will be a lot more incredibly talented 'failures' joining our ranks in the coming years.
I'm with you on this, too, Rhett. My era of doing traveling live dates was in the late 70's and all through the 80's. The total touring experience, from setup to striking the gear, along with everything in between was a necessary part of getting good at doing just that and working toward making an OK living at it. But by the time I came to L.A. in the 80s and learned how the sausage was really made, I began to see the beginnings of what you are addressing. Many of us died trying to make it, while myself and others took day jobs, which at that time was seen as betrayal in L.A. But after bad contracts, bad promoters, and bad management, we had to go back to playing because we loved it, and then go to the day job in the morning. Yes. I do sessions for clients at home, but my heart was always from the time I was in elementary school in the 60's was to be in front of an audience. I'm 66 years old now and the phone doesn't ring as much as it used to, but I have no regrets and havn't lost the love of playing my guitars. I'm not complaining, because I had my time in the lights. I didn't make it to the top, but my wife and I survived all that and learned a lot. I'm still teaching kids to play the guitar. My, how things have changed. Thanks for speaking truth, Rhett.
None of this would matter if people actually still cared about music. Sorry to piss in anyone’s Cheerios here….but the music industry has been destroyed and there is so much music being created by so many people that aside from the huge legacy bands that have been round for decades, the average person doesn’t care about music anymore. There are certainly very few people who seek out new music or get excited about new artists. I get no pleasure saying this as a guitarist who’s been playing out since the ‘80’s, but the art of making new music has been destroyed. There are many debatable reasons for this, but a saturation point has been reached when musicians are manipulating their art to try and fit any conceivable venue they can get paid to play and that is driving a “DJ” mentality in playing live. If society eventually shifts to be excited about music AS LISTENERS again….I will love it. But right now……the audience isn’t listening……….😢
The saturation point was reached and exceeded years ago. My son plays music and he’s worlds better than me but neither him or any of I friends are out new music. They are listening to Led Zeppelin and Van Halen.
100%. It's so tough for us musicians and writers to take because we all grew up being inspired by music to make music of our own. Not only is the music market oversaturated but it's become some kind of background app on someone's phone. Most young people don't throw headphones on or a good stereo and listen to somebody's record over and over again, reading the liner notes and getting absorbed in it like we used to. It's all playlist streaming and quick, short content like Tik Tok through phone speakers. And very few adults past the age of 30 actively seek out new music which is sad because there is a LOT of great new music out there. Most people in that age bracket listen to the sound track of their youth and only spend money on shows if it's one of those artists. Furthermore any 'new' musical success seems to be a Nepo baby, a Disney or TV star, or has the financial backing from rich parents.
The audience is still listening (and watching) but they are listening to a wider number of musical outlets. It used to be people only listened to a radio, then albums, then cassette tapes, then MTV and finally CD's. It's no coincidence that the music business changed when the computer/internet age arrived. All of a sudden people had many more outlets to consume music but they didnt just quit listening. They're just not getting it from a very confined few outlets like decades ago. There are so many places to hear music today and so many more people creating music today. The business is watered down with so many musicians and so many outlets to hear music. Live music is a bit different but it's still impacted by the conditions of the music industry. People went to live events in the past in great numbers because of how limited their music heroes were heard or seen. Nowadays you can hear or see almost anyone, anywhere at anytime with the click of a mouse or tap on a phone or tablet. I would argue that music listening is at least as great as it ever was but it's spread out so far and wide it might feel like there's less but I dont think so.
@@PennyAuctionI make music nearly daily but, honestly, I don't listen to new music at all. Really any music these days. When I do, it's something random on Amazon music, usually something I know. I've tried - I've saved a bunch of albums as a kind of pseudo record collection and only listen to those, forcing myself to listen to every album as if I'd bought it and only listening to something else as a replacement but it doesn't work. I just don't enjoy music much any more, as anything more than background. Can't tell you the last album I actually cared about.
Finally, someone who thinks the way I do. We need to bring back 50's, 60's, 70's, and early 80's rock and blues music performances when the artists and bands are the show, not a group of dancers and/or overbearing light shows!!!!!
Alternate perspective... I front a band a no-name band, in a small town, in a rural part of the state. I want nothing more (as a musician) to play with a live band. But our talent pool is microscopic. That means we get what we get for the band. Essentially, whoever shows up consistently, is willing to learn the songs, and has a little skill to work with, they're in the band. So think that thru... let's say the lead guitar player is quite talented, but determined to play like Eric Johnson on acid 83% of the time. Or the drummer refuses to stop including crazy fills that knocks off the song timing by 1-3 beats. Or the bass player wont... Or the singer don't... And on top of it all, there are only about 13 places to play in a 2hr radius. Point is, without real cohesion for "the music" a band isn't a band anyway. It's just a group of people playing the same songs at the same time, but pulling different directions. So if you want to propel YOUR OWN music forward, that band-of-misfits approach just doesn't work. Yes, I'm all about "collaboration" but not all "collaborators" are created equal. In my situation, the best way to propel forward my vision for my music is probably as a solo performer w/ backing tracks and a full PA system; with the sincere hope that players will hear me, like the music, and want to join my band. Your assumption is that a soloist-with-backing-tracks will further cheapen the music scene (race to the bottom) and displace real musicians who deserve work, purely for economy and convenience. I suppose that may be true in a place like Nashville, but not so much out here in BFE. Out here, playing with an invisible electronic band that I actually created in post to match my vision for the music, sounds like a pretty damn good idea. JM2C
I WAS alive in the 70s 80s and 90s as a professional studio musician. I got out of the music business in 2000 because I watched my livelihood, the studios I worked in and literally HUNDREDS of labels completely evaporate in the span of 10 years. And sadly, my jump to visual effects, where I've been for the last 26 years and almost 30 feature films... is failing in the exact same way. Its so utterly depressing to see musicians turn into dog-eat-dog soulless capitalists. The best live music is INTENSELY collaborative. The best shows I have ever seen were great because of the moments that happened on stage between the musicians... something that can NEVER happen with heavily produced and dehumanized backing tracks. I agree with you 1000%. Audiences pay (far too much) to see real, human musicians play music. They don't go to shows to watch someone play a computer.
@@RhettShull I got to see Isbell in Asheville unexpectedly, as a guest artist with the Allman tribute band called Trouble No More with Daniel Donato, etc. That show was *amaaaazing* .... Just looked up the 400 Unit tour dates, and of course they aren't coming to the PNW. Most of the things I want to see are too good for Seattle booking agents to know or care about them. I gotta move to the south. Sigh.
The point on "people don't care" is spot on. Having a great line up on stage is a huge privilege. People do care. They might not care about the effects etc being backing tracks but the instrumentation they do care about. The whole economy of the music industry is backwards though. It all relies on musicians, who are not making money, to spend money. I always laugh when people tell me how they "love" music or how "life wouldn't not be worth living without music" but complain when they have to pay to see bands etc.
I completely understand your frustration. And you are 200% correct. I remember two great articles about how things have changed. One was written by the guy who wrote Louie Louie. He described how making records was to inspire folks (kids), come to the shows which is how they made money. They supported themselves by playing live. Fast forward and it became about selling units i.e. records so the focus was on making the best record you could make to sell as many copies as possible. Completely different focus. And now lo and behold we are back to doing live shows to make a living. When Radiohead put out a record online effectively for free they asked their fans to pay what they felt it was worth. And some jackass from the Wall Street Journal wrote an editorial about how they were ripping off their fans. Stay with me here. His logic? The average fan paid x dollars for the record but it only cost Radio head a significant amount less to print the disc. Complete utter nonsense. The amount of training, practice, sacrifice, and serious real hard work it took those guys to get to the place where they could do what they did was completely ignored. Clearly the writer was incensed that the middle man was taken out of the equation. This needs to happen with the monopolistic companies like Live Nation and Ticketmaster who control not only the ticket sales but the venues as well. The other article was an editorial by Courtney Love. She broke down in great detail how bands back when could make a successful album, and tour, and still own money. It was quite an astonishing piece. I will end with Hunter's famous quote: “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”
Its not just a lame musical mindset, its the way of the world now. Its a massive shift in American mindset that literally everything needs to be 100% about making a profit
When whoever posted that says "Nobody cares", they're really saying that they don't care themselves - and that probably shows in their live performances. I get such a kick out of playing live with a band - the give and take between real musicians. I genuinely think that fun and spontaneity comes across to the audience.
I am not musician but I have been going to shows since 1979. I have seen everyone from the Eagles to Bad Religion, I can't even think of seeing a band that only using "Backing Tracks". This Dude is F'ing crazy, Most of us do care.... Thanks Rhett for setting the record straight
As an ex hired-gun guitar player, I can see both sides. It used to piss me off to no end to see how EVERY “Top-tier” artist that we opened up for, would be playing to tracks. ALL OF THEM!! We were proud of the fact that we had near perfect 4 part vocal harmonies, but these dudes just pressed play! And every time I asked why, I got the same reason….money. I get his comment that people don’t care, because he’s kinda right. Most of the people in the crowd were oblivious that there wasn’t a keyboard player, or there were tons of background vocals being sung by no one on stage. Now mind you, most of these were larger festival type shows, but I can honestly say, the people in the crowds were clueless…
Beardyman is an absolute genius Live Producer. He makes and remixes every sound with his voice and throws total raves. He tries to tell the audience every show “I’m doing this all with my voice” and hardly anyone cares. People just want to have a good time.
Yeah, noticing is maybe what we can discussed, but it's a bit pointless. I think nearly all of the advantage with real players is how it feels. Modern DAW grid convenience songwriting undynamic performances might never become really alive, but songs that are fuelled by the push and pull of a great band that are used to perform together is all about what live performances are. That came first; before songs on record that people listen to at home. Rock instrumentation is great because it fits as many people as can be defined and take place in a mix. It works audio wise but have it's advantage in humans performing like expressive humans. The sad thing is the disadvantage of not having as powerful and clean sounds as synthetic kicks and such. I love natural roomy sounding records with very defined performances but I think audioengineering nearly should become more radical to chase that clean and powerful sound programmed music, but with a great focus on highlighting expression; samples with velocity and such. People don't notice or don't even choose the right thing, but they absolutely love expressive playing. We, on gobal level, just need to fucking kill the loudness war mindset and straightness of music that has sufficated dynamics and minimised the room for expression for a while now.
@ I TOTALLY agree!!! Used to chap my ass that we worked hours on 4 part vocal harmonies, while “bigger” artists we opened up for just pressed play. But I’d still have done it ourselves ANY day…
For me, it has always been about the craft in musicianship. DIY. Learning to get better in controlling sounds, amps, instruments, getting better at expressing yourself. No automation, stomping on those pedals yourself. It is hard AF. All my heroes did it and that’s what I’m still going for.
What is so depressing Rhett is just how endemic this $$ profit disease is in our country. Boeing used to be the best of the best at building airplanes, but slowly financial heads took over the company and decided to move to Chicago; ever since it's not about making great aircraft by great Engineers, it is about profit, ever higher profit margins. Intel... they got to resting on their laurels and same thing, instead of relying on the Engineers who designed your best products, they let financial heads run the company into the ground. Referring to Uncle Larry, music is run by financial folks who demand it sound a certain way because that worked in the past and they are not musicians, it's all about the profit, THEIR PROFIT. If you try to compete they use their obscene money to buy you out and shut you down. Why compete when you can just put someone out of business? I could go on and on, but suffice to say we live in a world where money has poisoned every well of creativity, passion and equitable living.
As a 63 yesr old lead singer and guitarist in a covers band, we have a saying that’s as old as the hills. Definition of a professional musician: someone who puts £5000 worth of kit in a van costing £500 and drives it for 50 miles to then work for 5 hours and get paid fuck all. I have only ever done this for the love of it but I consider myself to be rich beyond my wildest dreams. I’m on a constant learning curve and the fruit of my labour is that I get to make some people happy on a Saturday night. I am doubly blessed that I am in a band with four other completely committed musicians. We are great friends, we never row or even get frustrated with each other, and it shows when we’re on stage. I also love going to gigs by the real professionals but I have noticed that the audiences are getting older too. Many of us grew up around musical instruments, church choirs, dance halls and school concerts. Most kids now are growing up with devices. As BTO used to sing, “you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet”. I hate to say it but AI is going to completely up end the whole music industry because the learning curve some of those kids will be on is bringing back to life long dead musicians, with new music that they never wrote when they were alive, with holographic performances created from original concerts. And the people won’t care.
It was not until I was 55 before I took up the guitar. I found the time for lessons and I have been in several small starter bands. Now I'm in a small duo (The Adjacents) with a vocalist/keyboard player. We have fun, but here in ABQ it is difficult to make much more than two beers and pizza. I don't play for food, not uppity, just would rather play for tips. After 13 years learning, and continuing to take weekly lessons, I love playing out, love being on stage. That's my payout. It would be better to be appreciated by venues and their managers to point of some level remuneration. We need to buy cables, picks, stage clothes, maybe a new rig. You cannot trade two beers and pizza or #25 split three ways with two other bands because the venue offers that as compensation. This post you offered is not the solution, in my mind. We are duo and make good music with the proper selection soul, blues, and rock adjacent (get it The Adjacents🤣) to the music work and entertain the audiences, and make us happy.
Dude, we need more people like you. I do have the perception some people don't care. I've been to concerts FULL on backing trakcs and no one seems to care paying hundres of bucks just to see the artist appear on state. WE NEED LIVE MUSIC!
When you said “I no longer tour because there’s no money in it” is exactly the reason why tours need to be profitable. I love you Rhett but you’re contradicting yourself. What other business model says it’s ok to lose money? This is the music “business” not the music “hobby”.
Exactly. It's the reason we no longer have 18-piece jazz orchestras, or 3 backup vocalists, multiple percussionists etc. Cutting members have been ongoing for generations. This solution is for the fans to pay more for their ticket, donate to the band, buy merch, follow the band to multiple venues etc. That doesn't happen anymore either. But why wouldn't they pay 3-4 times more for a ticket? Well, some people just "don't care" as much as they used to.
On the other hand I saw Dave Mason live in the early 80s. Full band but he also used an alesis hr6 drum machine for added percussion, congas etc. He did have a drummer, he also had some synth tracks on a couple of song. The majority of the audience didn't know or care. Also in the late 80s I played in a trio, with two great musicians. We couldn't find a drummer locally who could our material properly, so we programmed a drum machine and synth parts, to cover stuff we couldn't have done without a very large band. We broke many a sales record at local bars. Trick was the other two members of the band were monsters, and I was a great frontman. We even drummers come to hear us, and tell us they couldn't have played those parts. There is a middle ground here. Not to say I wouldn't rather play with a band comprised of all live musicians. However going the route we did, we could make a living.
The guy who posted the statement in question that Rhett mentions, is the guy I hire to play live drums, LD and build play back for my project. He is referring to my project. Heres the facts: We run a fully automated light show with LIVE drums, LIVE vocal, LIVE guitar (2 live guitars on songs I also play on) and a LIVE banjo (when needed to perform a certain piece), the rest is inside tracks (this includes bass, synths, strings, soundscape/sound design and some backups vox). This is not uncommon and this is something we have found sustainable for us at this point in our careers. That doesn't say that additional live musicians won't be added in the future when the budget is available to COMFORTABLY accommodate taking those additional musicians on the road (we will likely have a live bassist by next Fall). Obviously everyone wants to have a live musician to perform every single part of the music on stage, however on a case by case basis this isn't always possible. However not at one moment was this a decision to "put extra dollars in our pockets". Its a decision made to pay the players and crew I have top dollar, allow them to eat well and sleep in decent hotels and not be crammed into some small van. Happy players that are paid well = better players with better performance. Take it as you will.
Well that sounds quite different to "It's 2025 no one cares. The only people who care you don't have a bass player live are bass player." I see your point. That drummer of yours still is a giant arse.
More power to you brother! Anyone actually going out on the road, playing their own music, and making a living at it deserves PRAISE, not criticism. You're the man in the arena actually doing the deed. Rhett is in the crowd criticizing you for RUclips content. Rhett makes money doing music-adjacent things on RUclips. You're actually making money performing music. Talking about music and giving your personal opinion about music on RUclips makes more money than ACTUALLY performing music. So the very fact that you're profitable from performing music deserves respect. Rhett is literally making money by generating content, specifically bashing a profitable touring Artist/Band. All it took was an hour of his time, and it's generating income for him. The title of his video is "The Mentality that will Kill Live Music". He already gave up on performing Live Music! So to him, it's already dead. If he could make as much money being a touring musician as being a RUclipsr, he wouldn't have started a RUclips channel! And he's knocking you for doing what you have to do while actually being profitable! Rhett is just upset that bandleaders like you have to make the types of decisions that left him without work. There's nothing stopping him from doing what you're doing and leading a profitable band. It's HARD to lead a band profitable or not. Rhett just wants to be a "hired gun" side man. You keep doing you. Obviously your audience likes what you're doing, which is why you're profitable from performing your music. I wouldn't EVER knock a musician for leading a profitable band, like Rhett did in this video. That's simply unbelievable.
I have work in bands for many years and have always been a fan of "Live" without backing tracks. I think we are in a dark place in the music industry where DJ shows out sell live performances. I agree that having actual amps and people onstage is part of the experience. We don't have a keyboardist but instead of resorting to backing tracks, I just play keys and guitar at the same time lol! It may not be as good but its a performance thing that the audience appreciates. Seeing a human play is much more satisfying than having backing tracks do it for you.
Sorry man, this is a lost argument. The only reason people are bothering to do music anymore is because they love making music. There's a generational shift happening and no, they don't care about the band anymore; they're just as happy hearing a song and seeing a light show. As for just saving "a few thousand dollars" you've been a working musician long enough to know that you're lucky these days if you make a few thousand dollars playing; you even said you stepped away because RUclips was more sustainable. It's a hard pill to swallow, I've played professionally since the mid 90's and watched the swan song of the record industry and it's over. People are not going to suddenly start buying records again now that music is basically "free" and between recording, touring and maintenance costs most musicians are bled dry by the time it comes to dole out the paychecks. You don't have to like it, agree with it and you have to admit as much as it sucks that it does make total sense...unless you want ai to be the only source of music because that's the next logical step if music continues to cost you more to make than you can make playing music.
Here’s a white pill for touring musicians: Once generative AI is good enough to make consistently high quality songs, the entire recording industry will die, and all that will matter is the live show and how good of a performer you are. I think we’ll start seeing this in about 5 years. We’re about halfway there with stuff like Suno and Udio
@@whwh7339 THIS. As for now, we see more and more strange mathrock shows on underground youtube channels, full of kids on youdontwantoknowwhat and lit by one trashy par can. Things like this will be the reason to make and listen to music in the future; the experience.
Exactly right. I don't do live shows anymore because I don't really find incentive whatsoever being around people like this comment section. At all. I don't care about their opinions. I don't care about what they think is and is not "genuine" or "legitimate" or otherwise, at all. They act like they're owed something when they should be glad that they're getting any music at all. Because you're absolutely right, it's a ridiculous, high investment low return HOBBY and they don't have to be included at all in the hobby, very honestly
@@neilpatrickhairlessthere‘s economical aspects, but also craftsmanship, art and humanity to consider. Music has lost much of its identity shaping meaning, being replaced by other media, culture, or „content“. That we have to accept. Still not everyone wants to consume ai generated goop, music is also a celebration of humans enjoying a moment together, that includes audience and interacting artists. Watching bands with digital rigs is always weird to me. Ofc there’s stuff like soft choir singing that wouldn’t be possible with amps on the stage, but the instruments sound and play differently. Part of playing is taking up the challenge of the instrument‘s limitations. Ofc I‘m not a neutral observer, but I‘ve seen people nodding along to modern pop bands,filming and texting, and I‘ve seen a completely stuffed airport terminal jumping in sync to a Primus gig…
You quite eloquently put into words what has been running through my mind about the music "industry" for a while now. There is no industry. I applaud the folk making it now (as musicians) but the only revenue stream is in the supply chain to the musician, very little to nothing in the product. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
40 years ago I saw a band singing with 3-part harmony with only two singers and mics onstage. The third singer and mic was at the soundboard. It was a little bit odd that not all the musicians were onstage, but at least they were all in the room performing live.
Once again you've nailed it! As a local gigging dive bar musician, I saw this coming. First, in the 70's the union lost the bars to "scabs" (or so the older guys told me). Then came karaoke and old school DJ's who were paid almost as much as a quartet ultimately driving down the amount the bars would pay for ANY entertainment. Sophisticated tech followed starting with loop stations and drum machines enabling solo and duo acts to collect the same $ as an actual band. Now with Ableton live, a laptop, and a triggering device, the pressure to go solo or duo is greater than ever. Bars are paying worse opening fewer slots to bands and they prefer not to give up the space it takes for a whole band. If a solo act, a duo, a karaoke night, or a modern DJ can get butts in the seats, most bar managers prefer them.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver Yikes. That is a sad statement on the value people are placing on live music. I guess I should quit whining about the low $$ and be thankful we get paid at all?
@@markgawry4873 It was the kiddie 'punk' bands who did in the scene here. They 'stuck it to the Man', as in the unions that would have protected and paid them through dues. Thus the union wilted while the club owners smiled and made up crowd losses by extracting cash from WASPy rich kids with 'punk bands' (aka amateurs). Moms with minivans lined up outside the stage door while the 'label guys' with 'artist development contracts' lined up behind the moms ...
@@markgawry4873 Oh yeah, a 'major label' here now extracts 25 percent of its artists' LIVE earnings on the basis that "we develop their albums so we recoup our loss that way."
@@markgawry4873 Oh yeah, and the 'labels' here extract their artists' live earnings on the reasoning that "we developed their album sound so we regain our loss from their live work."
I can confirm audiences care. I was in a cover band and we used backing tracks for keyboard parts. Guitar, Bass, and Drums were all us, but we didn't have a keyboardist so we created backing tracks. There were several times people would comment that we had backing tracks but at one particular bar we played weekly, there was a lady every week, that would yell at us at the top of her lungs, "YOU AREN"T PLAYING! THERE IS MUSIC BEHIND YOU! YOU AREN"T PLAYING!!!!" She was very, very angry about it. I suppose we should have explained that it was just the keyboard parts, but she was so angry about it she probably wouldn't have cared.
I just saw Slowdive when I was in Guadalajara, MX last Friday, and while they had some ambient tracks playing in the background, they had a full band playing, and they sounded, felt, and looked incredible. What really sold the experience for me was feeling the whole range of instruments, from the bass and drums thumping in my chest, to the guitars, keys and vocals tickling my ears. Everybody onstage looked like they were giving it their all, and the crowd nearly drowned them out at times with cheers and screams of adoration. I really admire their musicianship, and as someone who composes his own music, their performance truly inspired me more than any half-assed band with just a laptop and a guitar onstage ever could.
Oh, and another thing. It's not just here in the US that ticket prices have gone insane. Tickets to that show were about $42 USD per person, in a tiny, crowded venue. In Mexico.
They Might Be Giants and Ween both started as 2 guys and backing tracks on tour. They both eventually had full bands live, but that's when it was sustainable. You don't have to like it, but teh reality is that a lot of people will just not do it if they can't make it work financially. This isn't the 60s and 70s when record labels let bands gradually develop and the band actually pocketed everything from touring. This is the era of 360 contracts and the label milking every dollar from the band, plus the issues w/ticketmaster and live nation, not to mention clear channel owning so much of the radio in the US. If you can get on the road with a full band, awesome. If it's you doing a one man show, hey at least you're out there. This video feels like you're really just gatekeeping what musicians should be, and frankly, fuck that shit.
Being a full time musician, for 99% of everybody, will never be comfortably profitable, regardless of how many people are in the band. It’s just the way it is now, and it’s never going to change back. The best shows I’ve been to in the last few years were by bands of people with good day jobs, who have the money to support their passion and bring the heat (and gear) night after night. Real amps, punchy and full drum kits, real keyboards, etc. Gone are the days where a group of young talented kids with no money are going to catch the ear of some record exec and launch in to stardom, at least in any facet of rock music. The best thing a young aspiring musician can do is ensure they get a good education/trade and manage their finances properly, so they can actually pursue music in some capacity.
@@RhettShull facts, but there are also amazing performers who use nothing but digital means to promote their art. In the end, it's not that the audience couldn't care less, it's all about the music. If you can use your gear to your benefit, then more power to you.
Context I relation to the artist is important. I don’t expect Mike Dawes to have 16 instrument backing tracks. A few weeks back, we saw The Warning, Halestorm and Evanescence. Needed the musicians without a doubt (and two of rocks greatest female vocals….wow). Your friend Mary Spender just did a really cool tour. Her solo to start then the band for second half. Had she had prerecorded backing musicians for the second half there’d been no vibe. As long as you the audience knows what you’re in for it’s all good.
I was at one of those shows. I came particularly for The Warning but agree on the value of all of the musicians. I think you need the on-stage chemistry for that to work as well. Is it harder to pull together a good touring band if you are a newer act?
I'm a synth guitar player and I always get accused of using backing tracks. I take it as a compliment as I play everything live! The reason I've played like this for the last 30 years is when we used to use a backing track it would go out of sync or we couldn't hear it. They were a pain to programme and set up. The only reason we used them in the first place was we couldn't find a keyboard player (there was a huge lack of compitent keys players who could play Chick Corea in early 90's Scotland. If they could, they were already too busy). When I first played a brass part on my guitar synth at a rehersal the drummer luaghed so hard (in disbelief) he fell off his stool and knocked himself out on a metal radiator. I knew then it was a good thing!!! Most people don't realise what I'm doing. I'm constantly battling with sound engineers who treat the synth sounds like an afterthought because they don't see a keys player, but it does give the band something unique when people are told it's me playing the keyboards (and guitar at the same time). I'm not stealing the job of a keyboard player because most of the bands I play with don't use one, but they get one when I play with them. My original music is centred round the guitar synth (Nickjitsu-Hyperreal) and that is where I do occasionally have to use backing tracks. I hate them, but when your playing a modern music show, gear demo or doing a mastercass you can't not use them. However if I go out with a band, it's a band and not a backing track in sight...........and **** your silent stages!
Greetings from great Britain...long live the guitar synthesizer...its a steep learning curve getting to grips with one...but man it's rewarding...so much so that when I plug into my Vox valve amp I'm kinda underwhelmed...that said I still do it as if you cannot sound half decent on an acoustic or just plugged into an amp you've had it...that said reverb and digital delay are very addictive...The Edge has been an addict all his life..he started out on gateway standalone pedals and now he freebases entire racks of digital gear....he uses loads vintage classic guitars to offset his habit...but ultimately he could use a 600 quid Mexican fender strat and it wouldn't make a difference in the long run...lol....BTW...actually I love The Edge...im just trying to be droll
There are two groups of listeners. The ones who genuinely don’t care because music is just seen as a commodity. Then there are actual fans who love music and understand that music is a human creative process, and that the actual magic is in the spontaneous creative endeavour of truly live music. Musicians will always be at the heart of the latter.
My first concert was Van Halen in 1984. My ticket cost $13. I was a concert junkie in the 90's. For the price of a ticket today I want to feel the energy you bring not a recorded vibe. People play off each other, there is a beauty there that I seldom get from just music or a famous person on a stage.
That would be a $40 ticket today, and unless it absolutely sold out, Van Halen likely still lost money on the gig. But back then VH would have made millions from album, and single sales and radio play, touring was basically loss maker to help promote the album. The relationship has reversed in the new century, music sales, basically streaming, basically count for nothing unless you're a Taylor Swift or a Lady Gaga.
and guess what, Van Halen figured out how to perform songs that modern bands would use backing tracks for! They took sacrifices in regards to the instruments they would have to drop in order to execute it live (guitar, etc.), but that's the point of a semi spontaneous live performance. They also wrote music with the intention of performing live...
I saw Dire Straits in '92, full nine-piece stadium band, for $32. In 1997, Mark Knopfler solo comes through a small hall with his little pub band ... tickets $79 and $99. Yeah, right , NO.
Waiting in long lines for expensive tickets, expensive merch, expensive meet and greets. and still we come all excited for the show. Dam right that "bass player" better be there!
Well wtf do you think happened to horn players in the 80s up 'til now : yep, replaced with synths. I am sorry, but I will not be crying for other musicians being replaced. Stop being someone that no one cares about and be someone people care about : make your own music and be an artist as opposed to being someone's sideman. That is what I am teaching my students. Look at content creators, they're not sidemen.
Music as we know it only existed in the last years of humanity. Of course it's transforming. It's sad for us 90's kids but it's not a tragedy. Worse stuff happened to humanity. We just have to re adapt.
Sadly, he is right. Giant Popacts are lipsynching with autotune and people aren't even mad. People used to get so angry and would want their money back when they found out it was lipsynch. Just to clarify I think this sucks
The funny thing is the biggest pop acts (who can afford it to be fair) are going back to live bands, or at least a mix of both. They want to give people a good show. Acts like Harry styles, Chappell roan, Billie eilish. Gives me hope.
People are used to it with pop acts, hell they even expect it: you're now seeing criticism of some 'bedroom' pop acts like Gracie Abrams who are just 'standing there playing a guitar or piano' instead of big choreographed numbers or Billie Eilish who's 'just' singing. It's bizarre.
@5:48: "....these monopolies being able to set the system up to benefit only them at the expense of the artists...." I was around in the 70's and 80's. It's always been this way. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
It’s a harsh truth, and it’s heartbreaking when you work toward a dream of playing live only to be rendered ‘expendable’… really, really unfortunate. Ironically, I ‘do’ think that there’s an apetite for it… folks love live music, but it’s an uphill battle. Great conversation.
You haven't backed up your feelings with any facts or data. Younger people are going to open mics with karaoke on their phones and their friends love it. Touring bands are playing for meals and hotel rooms. That's one step above busking. And homelessness. Solo artists are playing with machines that harmonize and add drums. Folk artists are playing with foot things that add bass drum to their songs. This makes it really hard for us naked solo artists to compete. Reality sucks sometimes. Take it or leave it or be soooo good you can't be denied. That is a very high bar.
I'll never be known as a "prophet", but I said two decades ago, the future of live musical performances would be a handful of stagehands, an audio-visual tech, and a supervisor going from venue to venue setting up a stage for a holographic projection. The band would perform the show - edited, of course, in a studio - and that performance would be replayed in every city. It's getting closer and closer to becoming a reality.
The other side of that is bands around here. You go to a joint to see three bands ... but all three bands are in each others' bands just with a different singer.
"If being profitable as a touring artist is your #1 concern, I think you should find something else to do." -Rhett My guy, if being profitable as a "musician for hire" is your #1 concern, I think YOU should find something else to do. That cuts both ways.
You said it best Rhett; people care. They do, and they are not coming to show to listen to the music. They are paying to experience the music. Experience the energy in the room, the excitement of the band playing, it is all very palpable and that dude has no clue what he was talking about.
I think if you're putting virtual band members on tracks, then you can't complain that "people just don't seem to care about live music as much as they used to"
You’re simply wrong if you’re claiming the majority of people care. The numbers don’t lie. Artists like Taylor Swift aren’t really live and yet they’re the biggest around. Clearly the tens of thousands paying good money to see her night after night don’t care. Sure, some people do, but they’re in a niche, which isn’t going to make for a sustainable career for the vast majority of bands.
@@jonathanmarkham1998 Taylor Swift has the most intense marketing campaign we’ve ever seen behind her, I don’t think that’s a realistic comparison. Many of the biggest touring bands play without any tracks.
Like who? Even bands I love like Muse are undoubtedly using tracks somewhere in their live performances. I could name a few but they wouldn’t be the most mainstream ones on the whole.
I think the point isn't that no one cares. It's that musicians are now an added value, more than a necessity. I play with a pop artist that barely even has real guitar in his recordings, but he's starting to use a live band because it's cool. But no one is going to criticize you for playing on your own. It's better to play with tracks than to not play because you don't have the money to finance the show.
You'll see these comments about musician's cutting corners, and you can tell how much music means to them, THOSE types of musicians are making this all worse, and younger upcoming players are following this advice, which is very sad. Thank you, Rhett, you speak for a lot of real musicians out there!!
Last Summer I saw Styx and Foreigner and they were both using backing tracks. I noticed, because I'm a musician, but I don't know how much the rest of audience did.
Audiences don't care. Pitch correct, click tracks, auto-tune, and lip-syncing is becoming the standard for recordings and live performances. Everyone knows it and nobody cares but other musicians. In the old days, Milli Vanilli and Ashlee Simpson wrecked their careers when they got caught lip-syncing. Today people shrug so the practice grows. There are credible rumors that Don Henley mimed the singing during parts of the most recent Eagles tour. Where's the outrage and demand for refunds on expensive tickets? I play guitar and it saddens me but it's the future I see.
It’s not just the cost it’s the headache. Bad attitudes, lazy during setup and tear down, unwilling to take feedback, too freaking loud with no feel, inconsistent performance, drunks, stoners, and skirt chasers make having a band miserable. The egos and know it all attitude is unbearable. I won’t join a band because I am not spending my free time messing with talented a$$holes jeopardizing my hearing and impacting my quality of life to play to people that pay attention to 15% of what you do. I can play in my music room with a backing track and enjoy it just as much. If I can do a solo show with backing tracks at a Marina a couple times a month and actually make money using backing tracks I’d do that. Were I lucky enough to be able to tour on my own music I’d hire a backing band if I could and use backing tracks when I can’t. A trio would be the max I’d try to keep together as a unit. Two guitarist and a keyboard player. Split the bass lines. Have the drums programmed or hire a recommended local drummer. I’m too old and too jaded to deal with the drama of a band especially when venues don’t pay any more for a a band than I made as a roadie in the 80’s and 90’s.
I partially disagree on what you say, because, if you are young (or old but you’re starting something musically speaking) and trying to make your way up, having the backing track is a huge difference for you economically speaking - cos you can’t pay live musicians - but if you already managed to get all the way up: totally, hire musicians.
there are ways to perform your music without it needing it sound like the studio recorded track. Plenty of people perform alone with just an acoustic guitar. maybe with a looper even. It's way more engaging to watch a musician execute a song in a different way than just hitting the play button and playing over it.
So just get a whole band together where everybody is involved creatively and performance-wise, no need to get 'hired guns' - no need to pay anybody - no need to get backing tracks
Unfortunately, you can't discount the tastes of the audience. Once upon a time, every town had dozens of live music venues all playing original music, but the audiences shifted over to DJs in the 80's and just kept going more and more in that direction. Today, mainstream audiences simply cannot bear going and listening to songs they've never heard to experience new music. They just don't want to do it.
@@jarrodhrobersonthe difference with him is that people aren’t expecting to see a band, they are expecting to see Bucket Head play guitar. In his position, I understand just using backing tracks because it really wouldn’t make sense to have a full band with him. It only makes a difference if you were to show up to see a rock band, but there’s only a guitar player, a singer, and a drummer, but you hear two guitar parts, a bass, and a keyboard being played.
i generally agree with the sentiment of everything here, but i will note that i have seen a very cool artist that relied on tracks and didn't tour with any other musicians. it was this french dude, touring around with his mom, playing tiny little DIY venues around the US. his show was a multimedia situation with video projections and an entire storyline. he had a custom built playback system and used triggers on his drum kit to play back video and audio cues, and for the guitar and bass tracks he sent them out to real amps in the room. it was incredibly powerful and engaging, and LOUD as all hell. so it can be done, it just really needs to be in the right context and you need to make up for the lack of energy from real musicians via other means.
The only thing I care about when watching live music is hearing musicians rip on their instruments. I sold merch at a theater for bands... The bands that got above average reactions and sales were the ones playing their instruments hard and well.
Hey folks. Check out Fil at Wings Of Pegasus. He’s currently calling out famous “artists” for using backing tracks and pre-recorded vocals. Don Henley/Eagles, Celine Dion, Taylor Swift. Those fans DON’T CARE. They just come for a “performance”. Live, backing tracks, autotune, pitch correction, miming. Their fans are being duped, and when Fil points it out they accuse him of hating the artist, and that they don’t care anyway. It’s disgusting. We have to fight it.
I get your frustration, but how exactly do you intend to fight it? Unless people en masse start to care about it, musicians from the highest to the lowest level are going to keep doing it, because it's a practical solution. I feel at the moment, for people like us who do kind of care about it and miss the way things used to be, we're just becoming old men shouting at clouds as the expression goes.
The market will decide if people care or not. There's an audience that doesn't care.... and there's a audience that does (Anybody watching this channel probably cares). People pay to listen to DJs spin a record and are okay with it.. it's not 100 miles away from that. Rhett talks about a friend that goes and plays music on his own terms is honorable.... but someone else that does it in a way that he doesn't like, is in a race to the bottom, even though they're still playing their music and might be able to support a family. People.... decide with your wallet.... if it matters to you, don't give your money.... if it doesn't... enjoy the show.
This is the correct take. The market will figure itself out. If the show is good enought, great. Playing everything live without tracks is simply another way to enhance the experience.
Believing that all a DJ does is “spin a record” is a mentality preventing many musicians from putting on better shows. Go watch a Carl Cox show and tell me all he does is push play. Arrogance is an obstacle to understanding.
@@JumboDubby Obviously not, great DJs are worth a lot. Reading the room and seemlessly bringing the appropriate vibe is a massive skill. But live music is a completely different category. I don't think @Zappalrl's intent was to talk down on DJs.
I was recently waiting for a plane, and I saw a bunch of men with horn cases and Marc Anthony tour T-shirts. They told me they were all musicians on his traveling show. That shows the dedication to quality and authenticity, he could have one keyboard player, playing horn parts with one hand. Hats off to Mark Anthony, and performers and artists like him who keep other artists working and preserving the beauty of the authentic music. This is a very important video Rhett, and I’m glad you did it. I am part a three-piece band in upstate South Carolina called 27 Birds… we have one musician who sings lead and backing vocals as well as playing keyboards. He can play various parts, such as bass with one hand and other keyboard parts with the other hand, at other times he plays on a five string electric bass and trombone. He recently bought a accordion, and we may add that to the act, too. Our lead guitar player also sings lead in backup vocals, and plays rhythm guitar, mandolin, banjo, and acoustic guitar, as well as harmonica and trumpet. I am the drummer, I also use Annalisa’s drum pad, system with triggers on my drums, so I played other musical parts on the pads that are not drum, sounds, including keyboard “washes” and bass parts. I also sang, lead them back up, vocals and play harmonica at the same time that I play the drums. The point is, we have a small band, but we are doing a lot of different things to add interest to the music, and interest for ourselves, as well as the audience. Are used to love to go see Carlos Santana because he had a big band.
I agree with Rhett regarding the point of cost savings being really a bad motivation of using backing tracks and replacing amps. On the other hand: I just started using pads and additional vocals on backing tracks because we don’t have a keyboard player and more harmonies are just great. Like that, I just have more artistic options.
Yeah like, many artists don't have infinite budget and many venues don't have support for an entire orchestra so you can enhance the live experience, it's supposed to be a show in the end. Of course, I still think it's very important to prioritize live playing and use live players cause that's also the charm of the live experience, if I want to hear exactly what is in the album I just listen to the album, so it's a fine balance to not race to the bottom but also enhance the experience
I just feel that you have to be smart & adaptable to make the numbers work. I play guitar & sing in a 5 piece 80's rock cover band. However, the keyboardist & I have the ability to play the same sets with drum & bass tracks. This allows smaller venues that typically would not be able to fit a full band have a rock show & offer more to their patrons than your standard solo act. We also have full control over the volume allowing folks to converse while we entertain. Occasionally, a fellow musician may make a disapproving comment, but generally the response is positive as we are not trying to fool anyone. Just adapting to earn a few more bucks & utilizing technology to deliver a small stage show.
CORRECT! People do not care. Social skills have deteriorated to the point where half of an audience can be having a private conversation during a live show as if they were at home. They have to shout because of all the noise that the band is making. Then there's all those frigging phones in the air so that I can't see the stage. It's generally acknowledged that our attention span has dramatically dropped to a few seconds. The majority of people use their phone to listen to music and have no idea what it is supposed to sound like. None of those people care enough to be watching this and you're only preaching to the believers 😢
Agree 100%. Also realized that crowds and crowd reactions are getting more lame with every tour/show. People are starting to use their phones within the first minute of a show or movie, no more attention span. Also tired of paying a 25 to 30% convenient fee for tickets. Things are still a little better in Europe where people actually go to see the band, most Americans on the other hand go to a show to be with friends and have a good time, drink a lot and get high. Sometimes talk is so loud that you can barely hear the band.
@@poolman3693 Is that even an excuse? Have you heard a Beatles concert? If the performance is engaging enough, people won't need to be on their phones. Be the change you want to see. The audience being drunk and high makes it more fun.
The reality is for a lot of touring artists its not about being a "little more profitable" ... its the difference between making enough to live on, or losing money. I thinks it okay for you to choose to stop touring for whatever reason, but I think if anyone can write original music and manage to make a living touring it, regardless of the techniques employed, that's an achievement. (I prefer live instruments myself)
Totally agree with the rant - people want to see the music unfold from the stage and they don't want to see someone press play on their laptop. I played a gig last night, and I'm at my day job this morning (albeit goofing off watching RUclips videos). It took a while to be able to make both work and music fit into my life, but it was totally worth the the hard work to make it happen. Now, work is work, and music is joy and I can love making music and performing without worrying about paying rent. Keep up the good work!
As a young teen, seeing Taylor Hawkins, Chris Chaney, Nick Lashley, and Jessie Tobias get Alanis Morrisette's Jagged Little Pill album and elevate those songs live was incredible! I felt flat having to go back and listen to the album versions. That's got to be worth every penny of having a band with you. They brought those songs alive. I know that's big money in a different era... but people care, the young version of me had his mind blown by those session musicians.
A large amount of us live in rural or smaller communities where we are VERY limited to having access to other musicians and almost no access to hirable musicians for live gigs long term like more than one or two shows, and backing tracks are our best options to get the ball rolling for our music. Yes we WANT to have a bass player, and a live drummer on stage, we just don't have the option. To say it's wrong, or a race to the bottom because they are not on stage and you want to play and share your music and an audiences won't like that is just an oversimplification. What your saying is not wrong when you say focusing on the "wrong mentality" by focusing on the money, but your lumping ALL of us in together under using backing tracks and ONLY addressing this with one throw away line at 10:42 seconds into a 11 minute video is not ok. It's not right and you should know better. The "stray bullets" fired on this take are negligent. This should have been in the beginning of your "hot take" in my small and humble opinion. Just look at your comments and how fast every diehard rock musicians ran to exclaim things like "Great Rant! Thank you Rhett. Let’s make live music great again." Or another example, "Yeah! Completely right. Real musicians are the thing. Amen." I have fought to make using backing tracks for newer acts and musicians trying to transition from a solo act to a full band ensemble, and the amount of backlash you take from the old guard for using ANY backing track ever in a live show is harsh and tough to overcome. The technology has come so far with backing tracks that playing live shows, even as a rock/metal/blues/guitar musicians you can put on a good show, and it can be used to go and recruit the right band members and still be growing a musicians skills in a live environment. Thanks for listening and you make some of the best content for modern musicians and guitar players out there. Your work is appreciated. This should have been at the top of the comment, but I think it make my point a little better, being at the end.
agreed, this is the most privileged blues dentist coded video I have seen in awhile, but then checked out this dude's channel and he seems to have that mindset.
Rhett, you nailed it. The race to the bottom in live music is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Take the life out of your live performance to save money, then price gouge fans, and eventually people will stop showing up. The artists that are using backing tracks today will make boat loads of money on a couple tours, but after a decade or two of this, the live music scene will just die a slow, painful death.
Putting "an extra hundred dollars" and not putting anything in your pocket is a big difference. I do understand the original poster, it's not about replacing musicians when you can already make some money touring, but about starting touring when you can easily go broke by doing it. Playing something live is better than not playing live at all.
Agree completely. Rhett started his RUclips channel by himself without all the fancy production he has now. He worked with what he had to get started and improved his production when he could. I guess that logic of working with what you have doesn't apply to live music, though? I'd rather see a great musician use tracks until they build an audience, network for band members, or get themselves in a financial situation to hire the personnel that they want, rather than put off their dreams of performing or give up on them entirely. We may lose a lot of great artists if they felt like they couldn't get started or make the art they want to make without meeting a certain budget threshold required to do it "the right way" in the eyes of elitists.
@@jakestewartmusic oh yeah, what worked for him though should be ignored because being a RUclipsr apparently is just a whole separate thing that has nothing to do with markets or customers or satisfying people’s needs or demands like bands do.
This entire take is so gatekeepy and revealing IMO. Rhett doesnt even think to consider that the poorest of bands freaking struggle to find musicians to fill spots. Im seeing artists in my local area get forgotten about because they cannot play live because they cannot replace the band member who just left, and cannot afford to hire another person. Not to mention self produced acts who dont have connections or the money to hire other musicians to begin with. Rhett is a guitarist for hire, of course he is going to rail against something that can replace him. Until you find a person to fill that spot, you might as well continue to play live with a backing track. Dont let having less musicians stop you from playing live. Thats what i got from the thread he shared.
I’m a half decent guitarist but am often asked to play keys as well In the last 6 months I’ve gone from guitars/tube amps/helix. Multi keyboards mixer etc etc To now using a sp 404 Mkii. It’s all me actually playing but now pushing buttons to fire parts in real time People don’t care overall. Even the band I’m in prefer it because I can bring more sounds from daw set up, keys, guitar, vocals, sound fx It’s been a one way road to the bottom since I started in the eighties I have beautiful gear for me now, it matters to me but rarely to anyone else
I get the point idealistically. But if you're a touring act unless you're still a baby band supported by your parents, maximizing profit has to be your main concern. Otherwise what's the point of touring? Having done it forever, sure the thrill of playing and sharing your music drives you, but if there's nothing left at the end of the tour to pay your rent or mortgage or feed your kids then it's pointless.
From someone whos been to a number of concerts. Your spot on Rhet. There is a huge presence to having all the members of a band on stage. It's fine to add things that might be hard to cover but most of the time those can be done without. Keep going Rhet. Love your work.
Boomer rant ..As a survivor of touring in the 70s my mind is scrambled by all of this. Like many others in the industry we were a band who had fire in our bellies and the ambition to knock the audience sideways from the first chord. Just lads with big amps, instruments and voices to storm the beaches. People came to see a band and many had their own favourite members of that band due to the music they made. They knew more about the bass player than we did but he made most of it up. We fecked around and It made it all fun and that showed in the music. We constantly challenged the songs themselves which is something a digital track can't do. What I'm saying is that if people pay to see a band and only get two people with tracks, which isn't a band, then its feels like a plastic fake. An Ableton track can't drag you up off the floor when the world is rough and put you back together like a band can. Loyalty meant we made money on gigs and records which I know isn't possible now and I feel so sorry for working musicians who deserve better. End of boomer rant.
With ticket prices and the way that LiveNation/Ticketmaster have such a tight grip on live shows, the entire system needs to fail before there’s any improvement.
This is the actual answer. This rant is pointing the fingers at the wrong folks as the problem.
Back in the Pearl Jam rant days, TM was just a parasite draining an extra $20-30 bucks from every ticket buyer. Now TM is the goddam Galactic Empire and we're just serfs and servants in their factories
Sad, but true.
Some tried but the people voted against their interest. Those people put in ace a supreme court that ruined the chevron ruling that took any teeth from the government coming down on monoplolies like a live nation. Line Kahn the current head of the ftc tried but was unable, but once again the people voted against their interest. Now we're entering a new guilded age where the wealthy corporations are going to get bigger and richer and continue to fuck us.
For big bands its like that. Go see some local originals, buy a cd you'll never listen to but wants the live scene to grow.
Small indie bands struggle here
"When a mother can turn on the phonograph with the same ease that she applies to the electric light, will she croon her baby to slumber with sweet lullabies, or will the infant be put to sleep by machinery?"
-from John Philips Sousa's 1906 document "The Menace of Mechanical Music"
This is beautiful.
"The baby won't care, I bet it can't even tell if the lullaby is coming from a speaker or its mother".
That's obviously rediculous, but it applies to live music as well
Ouch ......... !!
There’s a heart-to-heart connection with the mother to the child when she sings with her own voice you will not replace that. There’s also an intention in the mother’s heart when she sings to her baby that she cannot replace with a machine either. You cannot take both of these experiences away from humans. You can, but I don’t be the same
He would have loved AI music generators. 😂
Nothing takes me out of a performance more than not having live drums.
It depends. Back in the '80s, there was a band with a drum machine fronted by a guy named Steve Albini so powerful they might have taken you out of a performance by blasting you back onto the street outside.
the choice isnt just drummer or drum machine. there's lots of percussion in-between.@@YTPartyTonight
@@YTPartyTonight well was it written with a drum machine in mind? if so, that's completely different, because that's a conscious decision and is part of the sonic aesthetic from the outset.
Drums are essential even there’s drum tracks to augment.
@@YTPartyTonight I believe it. I never saw Big Black live but I saw Shallac live and the drummer was my favorite part.
When I found your channel I was a teenager with big rockstar dreams and a band of dudes that have all moved away and got day jobs. I hold on to my music as I clock in for my 9 to 5 in IT. I play a show or release a song every once in a while but it’s never felt like it used to. It’s frustrating that this world of great live music seem like it’s dying. Thank you for keeping it alive Rhett. I will always look up to you for that.
I feel ya man. I'm older than you but have accepted that if I want to write and record music while playing the odd show AND have a family I had to join the rat race.
I saw that post. I agree with you 100% . He's also completely missing the point as to why we go see bands live . The spontaneity. Something different than what we've already heard. As a player, I can't imagine how boring it would get playing to the same stagnant track every night. The crowd would see it too.....because they do care.
Your average listener is fairly oblivious to the authenticity of what they hear through a PA, don't kid yourself.
@@headwinded1948 respectfully disagree. People like what they hear but they do not necessarily know "why" they like - so in a way they don't know, but they do. We as musicians, actually playing, know how to give/get that extra 10% in a live setting. Sure, you can "get away with" full backing tracks and digital rigs and it will get you 90% of the way there - but that extra 10% is where the magic is. Unless you're playing arenas or stadiums, people can tell whether they really know it or not. At arena/stadium level, you're hearing everything mic'd up or direct in to the PA and not hearing much of the stage - so you can do backing tracks and/or digital rigs with a silent stage. But do that at a small/medium club where the drummer is the only one playing on stage, and that front row of the audience is only going to hear the drummer when they're near the stage. Small and medium sized gigs/venues, where most musicians are playing, benefit from a full live band.
He not only misses the point as to why we go see bands live, but also why we ourselves go and play live music in a band. Because it's fuken hilarious.
This. I grew up seeing (and playing in) punk and weird/experimental indie bands, where the joy of a live performance is the unpredictability. You hear things you didn't hear on the recorded version - it's an extra treat. And sometimes the performances were technically awful but entertaining in another light (sometimes crossing into comedy). It's the interaction between human beings that makes live performance more special than just having someone play songs to you. We're musicians, not DJs.
People totally care unless they’re going to a pop show for teeny boppers or to see certain bands like KISS who are known to fake their playing and people go for the spectacle. People can tell the difference in the way the songs are played and want interactions between band members and the crowd.
I challenge the person who created that post to use a backing track to replace some of the live musicians night after night. He’ll find the crowd thinning out very quickly. He’s gonna be less profitable. He’d be better off performing a solo gig without a backing band than using backing tracks - because people who go to shows want authenticity and live music.
Saw Seal a few years ago in St. Pete, FL. With my wife. She was a complete Seal fan. He had a single guitar player, but a complete band-in-a-box.
We left mid way through. It was essentially Karaoke. Mechanical. Lifeless.
That's sad. I mean, I get that he's not a huge draw like he was in the '90s and probably can't afford to have a string section, horn section, etc. But he can't at least bring a drummer, bass player, and someone to play synths/keys for the other parts? I've seen people play guitar to backing tracks, and I agree, it feels lifeless in most genres.
I have to completely disagree with what the guy said about nobody but bass players care if you don't have a bass player live. The bass player is the absolute most important person on the stage. (Then again..... I'm a bass player. 🤔)
They’re coming for us. We have to stand strong, bother. 😉
The irony of him being a drummer, when drum machines have been a thing since the 80’s, wasn’t lost in me.
@chrismn601 Hahahaha! Yeah. Very true. I used to play with a drummer who didn't want to play to a click track. I told him that I had a drummer named 'Al Esis' who could lay the tracks for him. After a few threats to his ego, he nailed the parts to the click. I then brought in an 80's Alesis drum module to show him who could've done it. 😆
I’m fine with having a bass player if the bass player knew their jobs.
If not you better believe imma back track them myself since hell you gotta be better bassist then me if you’re playing with me.
@@redcomn That statement can cover a lot of ground. More than once, I’ve upset a guitar player by asking them if they’d like me to show them how to play a part.
@@Metalbass1979 I’m not a huge fan of click tracks, myself. But, the threat of a metronome, or a drum machine can be effective.
So right, Rhett! It is harder and harder to make a living any more doing live music. I hope things change with the leadership change in our country because people are having a tough time just making ends meet. Even churches are filling in their musicians with tracks. However, there is nothing like it as a musician when you interact with other musicians and that is where the best creativity is born! Canned music is also a killer of improvisation. I like to hear new music and not covers of old tunes that are exact copies of the original. Sure bands that do covers live like The Analogues are cool and have a place in music doing exact copies of the Beatles, but they go to fantastic extremes to make it all live! Love it! It wouldn't be the same using a track!
Working cover band guy here. I gig a decent amount (100+ shows a year in 6-8 states). I’ve noticed the heavily tracked bands in our circuit have been losing crowds while we’ve continued to grow with a classic 2 guitar, bass, drum kit setup. We run tracks for maybe 30% of our songbook (random keys, horns, effects), but the idea of tracking an integral instrument to the band ex. bass is lunacy. People notice and can feel the difference with a band that sounds full and is actually playing live. I think authenticity (in a rock band environment especially) is really important to the overall experience of seeing a cover band. People love the songs cover bands play because of the bands and musicians that created them; cutting out members for a track loses that real experience.
100%, I think you nailed it. Having backing tracks for special parts that happen rarely is perfectly fine. And shoot, if everything you do incorporates some electronic pieces, then great!
But when you replace things that are core and foundational…for profit or ease? No thanks. Even with my favorite bands if they lacked a member would be harder to enjoy. Understandable if there’s unforeseen circumstances, but it feels wrong to think they are merely swappable pieces.
Toan is in the crocs and sweatpants.
Yep. No one wants to carry around $30,000 worth of percussion instruments and horns -- and the musicians to play them -- that are each used on one or two songs in a 20- or 30-song set. That's a perfect use of backing tracks. (To clarify, by "'percussion instruments" I don't mean a drum kit. I mean stuff like congas, bongos, tympani, etc. Stuff that your drummer can't play because he/she is too busy playing the actual drum part on the song.)
God, I hope you're right. I've accepted the fact that the golden age is over and has been for a couple of decades. But I want those who still carry the torch to be able to continue (I'll just quickly go past the 'cover band' thing, I need to adjust my attitude - at least you're playing!). And it not be just trustafarians and really, really poor musicians who still play.
I know what we do needs to be for an audience to work. And I hope those audiences have their bullshit detectors well tuned. If they wanted to listen to backing tracks, they could go to a discotheque. Teenyboppers aside of course, they have been treated like sheep since Sinatra's people paid young women to scream at his concerts. But real musicians, people who want to be creative (even the cover bands!) are precious. I'm past the point in my life where I'd go touring. I had some success in the 80s, but not enough to pay for luxurious touring busses and guitar techs, so at my age the thought of touring fills me with horror. Sure, I'd enjoy it if all I had to do was play but as I said, my success, proud of it as I am, is just not at the level where I'd get big enough audiences to pay to make it liveable for an old bloke. Anyway, I digress. I really hope audiences are spotting the nonsense and not putting up with it. Maybe that's the good side of this cassette and VHS nostalgia, which I always lay shit on? We ditched those as soon as we could, just because it's analogue doesn't make it better! Yes, I know it's workflow, but a little bit of discipline and you can have that workflow with a sequencer that does audio, you just need to set your own limitations.
I don't mean to be disparaging. Cover bands, particularly what used to be called 60/40, used to be the refuge of the same sort of people who want backing tracks because it's cheaper but I get that it's a way for actual musicians to play these days and I'd probably be doing it myself if I were 25 years younger. Good luck with it.
One of the main thing a working-band like yours has going for it is the live musicianship. Maybe I'm not the average live-music-attendee, but personally I think half the fun of seeing a cover band is hearing musicians that are good at their craft and can jam and have a good time. Bring the vibes! And I think the same can be said for working bands that aren't doing covers - being flexible musically is just one of the big strengths of smaller bands - and having all the basses (pun intended) covered, and played by real people is definitely essential to achieving that.
"Race to the bottom" is a good way of putting it. I understand the sentiment from the person posting though. If it comes down to making a profit or not making a profit, and you have other people in your life to think about, then backing tracks might have to be the way. Obviously the ideal is to have a full band on the road and play live shows. That's the way we all want to see it. If your 19 or 20 and that's your only responsibility then go for it and live in your van. If you're 35, married with a kid or two, and your tours are making less and less money you are faced with a tough choice: Go the backing tracks route or quit, get a regular job and do music as a side hussle so your kids can go to the dentist.
When many gigs are only paying the same amount of money that I made back in 1978 (literally), it's difficult to justify much. How music (live and recorded) became so devalued in the marketplace is totally heartbreaking. Today's average "fan" will stand in a packed room or even arena to watch a DJ...???!!! It is definitely disheartening.
I'm starting to think part of the devaluation came from the musicians not putting on a special enough show to make people want to see them no matter the price...
Especially over the last decade.
With putting half the show on tracks, we're kind of devaluing ourselves
@@josuastangl7140 The catch is that putting on a special show that gets people coming back these days especially takes a lot of money, time, and effort. Everyone's got time and effort, not a lot of money circulating tho. In an ideal world no one ever has to ever settle for backing tracks, everyone just shows up and does everything for free. The problem is no one is willing to do that, even at the amateur level. And they shouldn't be expected to tbf. No one expects you to go work for free, you shouldn't expect that from musicians either. Too many people feel entitled to musicians work and performances. If you want a show without any backing tracks start making one, stfu, or go offer to learn and play the parts then provide your own gear and show up and play them for no pay. If you can't do that then you shouldn't complain about backing tracks. Or just make your own music, but then normies and hobbyists would find out recording and making and album is just making backing tracks lmao it's classic, so annoying but a classic none the less
@@josuastangl7140Nailed it.
McDonald’s is hiring.
@@josuastangl7140 Most of the audience can't tell if *replacement* tracks are in use. Augmentation and "sweetening" tracks? Yes, because it's obvious there is no string orchestra or African percussion section on the stage, but even then a big chunk of today's audiences don't care - they're too busy streaming their experience live to social media, along with much of the audience. It's more about "look at where I am and what I'm doing" than "this is so good, I have to share it with you." Spectacle sells, so Carrie Underwood had her flying pickup truck; Tay-Tay (on the Push Play tour - aptly named?) had the flying "B Stage" that lifted off and took her back to the main stage; all the wardrobe changes, video, moving lights and lasers and pyro... it's all about putting up an experience that can't be replicated on a phone or even in a home theater. The live concert industry is back to doing dog and pony shows because everything else - the songs, the dancing, the general nature of a performance - is all over social media before the first show is over.
Did musicians do this to themselves? I don't think so. It started when commercial radio stations became less and less relevant to the popularity of a song, artist, or genre. As far back as Sony's Walkman, digital portable players and the record company and publishing company concerns about digital piracy, to the smart phone and streaming. This broke the record company business model. Not having radio to "break" new songs and new acts, not having control and accounting over physical media sales, all new to them. They saw the train coming and decided to take a nap on the tracks instead of working up a new business plan. The result is that musicians are even more screwed than they were back in the good old days.
As the sound man for a classic rock 3 person band who are very good players, most of what I notice is people probably under the age of 40, don't know the genre or care that a band is even on stage playing, they gather in a group together and talk to each other for the entire time they are there, the music is simply just background noise.
The older crowd that did grow up with the songs on the radio or who had the albums etc. Do very much appreciate and engage with the music and the band. We do about 30 gigs a year, definitely not for the money, we split it 4 ways, all have jobs that provide for our families.
The younger crowd in general (there are exceptions) just barely care, and are just there because their friends are there, and they have a lot to talk about. Honestly its amazing how much and for how long they can talk.
this sums it up, for me: The Elwood Blues I know once said that no pharmaceutical product could ever equal the rush you get when the band hits that groove; the people are dancin', and shoutin', and swayin'; and the house is rockin'!
Not a pro, just open mics, solo with guitar, but you are right.
I don't drink but after playing a set I feel really buzzed.
Audience response is like a drug. To me that is the heart of my love for playing music for people.
I play at all-acoustic and full-band-option open mics. Sometimes people use tracks but it is not pro and may be their only way to show their talent if they don't have a band to back them.
At your level i am ambivalent. When you get to a stadium level gig, yea, full live set, people pay for that. I too want LIVE players if my ticket is expensive (lets destroy tickiemaster) but not at the corner bar with 40 seats, no cover. When bar receipts and tips pay the band that is a real thing, as you know.
I have seen Moody Blues and Procol Harem with full orchestra and Keb Mo with solo guitar. Bar players with just a simple drum machine. Street busker musicians as good as any of them (Dovidas). All great.
To each his own if it allows you to play and make a living.
But I understand it is a real situation for those who cannot play solo too. Much like banjo and mandolin orchestras in the last century and movie theater piano players when the 'talkies' came along. Many continued to play but with a new instrument. That may be the future.
Jake would have agreed 🤘🏻
This is my ultimate pet peeve!
Learning a craft, creating Music, can Never be Milli Vanilli. Music is Spiritual. Even if the general public IS clueless, They DO notice Less power & impact in the music they pay too much to witness
Bring back LIVE MUSIC, before it completely dies!
Race to the bottom sums it up perfectly.
I am a working musician - I agree with you BUT it would be a HUGE saving not just a couple of hundred bucks at the end of the tour...... Thats the temptation.
Personally as an independent artist, I play with backing tracks not because I want to make more money but because I don’t have anyone I can play with live. I record and play everything myself already but I hope someday soon I can play my music with other people.
I feel you on this. I even tried playing live with backing tracks hoping other musicians would like the music and come play live with me. Eventually had to pack it up as shows were costing too much. Would I have preferred live musicians with me? Absolutely. Could I afford to pay them a competitive rate? Not a chance. Producing music has become a black hole for my money and I am extremely thankful that by God's grace alone, I have a job that covers this cost.
Whether they realize it or not, people will ALWAYS prefer watching live musicianship over a pre recorded track at a live show.
Yes, sometimes tracks have to be a part of it, but if you gave people the option to choose, they would always choose to see the music played live on the spot.
A good example of this is Ian Brown from the stone roses did a tour last year with just a laptop. People who bought tickets were unaware that he was doing this until they arrived expecting to see a band lets say it didn't go down verry well. As the word got out a lot of people didn't go. On top of that the tickets were still the same price as going to see a band. So it was watching someone do karaoke of their own music
"People don't care" - until they do. The nobody cares and nobody will ever notice person in the group what ruins so many things that started out great.
I’m a singer/songwriter. It’s hard t put a band together, t keep it together and t get paid.
Rap artists sing t tracks and pack the house.
Most casual fans don’t care imo.
@@ProbableCauseBluesBand I think this is where the caveat that Rhett provided: Rock/Rock adjacent. Rap and Pop artists don't qualify.
@@rsplines12 People forgot about Milli Vanilli - huge until they were banished.
At the other end of things you had John Mayer selling out arenas for his Solo tour where people knew if was just him and a guitar/piano and had an amazing night.
I write and record all my music with the mindset that I would want it to be performed live with as minimal of a band as possible. But that’s still 4 people needed to cover guitar, bass, drums and keys. I couldn’t see ever having anything less except for an acoustic gig.
When I go to a show I want to see a musician behind every sound I hear
Prepare to be disappointed.
What if that's all one person?
@@Orchestructive Are you referring to Steve Hill ?
Preach it cuz
Not feasible for a lot of artists these days. You will be disappointed if you go in with that mindset.
Supporting yourself outside of your music is what most musicians do once they learn the economics of the road. To a young musician, that's a hard pill to swallow. But for a recent retiree like me, it's quite liberating.
My correct decision to do it at age 21 has been reaffirmed throughout my life more times than I could count. Why? Because I don't have to perform to put food on the table. And now I can enjoy performing on MY terms. No contracts, no deadlines, no commitments. I stay as booked as I want and I'm not beholding to anyone. I sleep in my own bed every night and don't live on truckstop food.
You seem to equate silent stage performing to mailing it in using backing tracks. The two are NOTHING alike.
Backing tracks are like singing to the jukebox... or karaoke night. But I assure you, I still play my guitar on a silent stage. The only difference is less gear to carry and quicker setup/teardown.
And people who say gigging with electronic drums is cheating, or is easier, have not gigged consistently using them. Learning how to express yourself with them is a challenge in itself.
I'm not at all worried that live music will ever be replaced by backing tracks. Over and over again, young people see us play and their mouths drop open. Not because we're that magnificent, but because they're witnessing live music up close for the first time. And, often, they approach me during break with all kinds of questions. I try my best to foster their interest. Their reaction tells me the future of live music is bright.
I never comment on videos anymore but have been a “silent” supporter of yours for years now. I can’t believe the timing of you releasing this video. I quit a good job to give my dreams a go. I was a full time musician for the past almost two years now. It was sustainable right up until it wasn’t and I made the decision to go back to that job with a much better schedule that allows for me to still gig, network, record, etc. Even with that good schedule it’s tough to get past the feeling of “failure” at times. To hear your thoughts on that specifically was very helpful and I had to let you know you reached someone and made an impact. Thanks 🤘🏼
Ps. Totally agree on that mindset being trash.
@brannondurkin9522 I had to make the same decision as you in 1976. When Disco DJs replaced club bands I saw the writing on the wall. I metered that feeling of failure you mention against the reality of being able to make a living, as gigs became almost non-existent. Now that I'm retired I don't regret going to work in the printing & later IT worlds. I have a ton more benefits than I'd have had if I'd tried to 'beat a dead horse'.
Totally get it. Just remember how many amazing musicians have 'failed'. Count me as one of em. With that being said, if you can still make records and play gigs who says it has to be done for a living? Most of the bands we loved growing up would also be 'failures' if they didn't have the record companies marketing them to us. My guess is there are thousands of amazing artists out there who would be 'successful' if they had the money machine of the majors behind them. Maybe you're one of them? I think there will be a lot more incredibly talented 'failures' joining our ranks in the coming years.
@ Very well said, I agree! A big portion is just the right mindset.
I'm with you on this, too, Rhett. My era of doing traveling live dates was in the late 70's and all through the 80's. The total touring experience, from setup to striking the gear, along with everything in between was a necessary part of getting good at doing just that and working toward making an OK living at it. But by the time I came to L.A. in the 80s and learned how the sausage was really made, I began to see the beginnings of what you are addressing. Many of us died trying to make it, while myself and others took day jobs, which at that time was seen as betrayal in L.A. But after bad contracts, bad promoters, and bad management, we had to go back to playing because we loved it, and then go to the day job in the morning. Yes. I do sessions for clients at home, but my heart was always from the time I was in elementary school in the 60's was to be in front of an audience. I'm 66 years old now and the phone doesn't ring as much as it used to, but I have no regrets and havn't lost the love of playing my guitars. I'm not complaining, because I had my time in the lights. I didn't make it to the top, but my wife and I survived all that and learned a lot. I'm still teaching kids to play the guitar. My, how things have changed. Thanks for speaking truth, Rhett.
None of this would matter if people actually still cared about music. Sorry to piss in anyone’s Cheerios here….but the music industry has been destroyed and there is so much music being created by so many people that aside from the huge legacy bands that have been round for decades, the average person doesn’t care about music anymore. There are certainly very few people who seek out new music or get excited about new artists. I get no pleasure saying this as a guitarist who’s been playing out since the ‘80’s, but the art of making new music has been destroyed. There are many debatable reasons for this, but a saturation point has been reached when musicians are manipulating their art to try and fit any conceivable venue they can get paid to play and that is driving a “DJ” mentality in playing live. If society eventually shifts to be excited about music AS LISTENERS again….I will love it. But right now……the audience isn’t listening……….😢
The saturation point was reached and exceeded years ago. My son plays music and he’s worlds better than me but neither him or any of I friends are out new music. They are listening to Led Zeppelin and Van Halen.
100%. It's so tough for us musicians and writers to take because we all grew up being inspired by music to make music of our own. Not only is the music market oversaturated but it's become some kind of background app on someone's phone. Most young people don't throw headphones on or a good stereo and listen to somebody's record over and over again, reading the liner notes and getting absorbed in it like we used to. It's all playlist streaming and quick, short content like Tik Tok through phone speakers. And very few adults past the age of 30 actively seek out new music which is sad because there is a LOT of great new music out there. Most people in that age bracket listen to the sound track of their youth and only spend money on shows if it's one of those artists. Furthermore any 'new' musical success seems to be a Nepo baby, a Disney or TV star, or has the financial backing from rich parents.
The audience is still listening (and watching) but they are listening to a wider number of musical outlets. It used to be people only listened to a radio, then albums, then cassette tapes, then MTV and finally CD's. It's no coincidence that the music business changed when the computer/internet age arrived. All of a sudden people had many more outlets to consume music but they didnt just quit listening. They're just not getting it from a very confined few outlets like decades ago. There are so many places to hear music today and so many more people creating music today. The business is watered down with so many musicians and so many outlets to hear music. Live music is a bit different but it's still impacted by the conditions of the music industry. People went to live events in the past in great numbers because of how limited their music heroes were heard or seen. Nowadays you can hear or see almost anyone, anywhere at anytime with the click of a mouse or tap on a phone or tablet. I would argue that music listening is at least as great as it ever was but it's spread out so far and wide it might feel like there's less but I dont think so.
@@PennyAuctionI make music nearly daily but, honestly, I don't listen to new music at all. Really any music these days. When I do, it's something random on Amazon music, usually something I know. I've tried - I've saved a bunch of albums as a kind of pseudo record collection and only listen to those, forcing myself to listen to every album as if I'd bought it and only listening to something else as a replacement but it doesn't work. I just don't enjoy music much any more, as anything more than background. Can't tell you the last album I actually cared about.
Finally, someone who thinks the way I do. We need to bring back 50's, 60's, 70's, and early 80's rock and blues music performances when the artists and bands are the show, not a group of dancers and/or overbearing light shows!!!!!
Alternate perspective... I front a band a no-name band, in a small town, in a rural part of the state. I want nothing more (as a musician) to play with a live band. But our talent pool is microscopic. That means we get what we get for the band. Essentially, whoever shows up consistently, is willing to learn the songs, and has a little skill to work with, they're in the band. So think that thru... let's say the lead guitar player is quite talented, but determined to play like Eric Johnson on acid 83% of the time. Or the drummer refuses to stop including crazy fills that knocks off the song timing by 1-3 beats. Or the bass player wont... Or the singer don't... And on top of it all, there are only about 13 places to play in a 2hr radius. Point is, without real cohesion for "the music" a band isn't a band anyway. It's just a group of people playing the same songs at the same time, but pulling different directions. So if you want to propel YOUR OWN music forward, that band-of-misfits approach just doesn't work. Yes, I'm all about "collaboration" but not all "collaborators" are created equal. In my situation, the best way to propel forward my vision for my music is probably as a solo performer w/ backing tracks and a full PA system; with the sincere hope that players will hear me, like the music, and want to join my band. Your assumption is that a soloist-with-backing-tracks will further cheapen the music scene (race to the bottom) and displace real musicians who deserve work, purely for economy and convenience. I suppose that may be true in a place like Nashville, but not so much out here in BFE. Out here, playing with an invisible electronic band that I actually created in post to match my vision for the music, sounds like a pretty damn good idea. JM2C
"Point is, without real cohesion for "the music" a band isn't a band anyway."
This is an excellent point.
Can I join your band? 😂
@@BeefNEggs057 sure, if you can make the commute every week for practice, LOL !!!
I WAS alive in the 70s 80s and 90s as a professional studio musician. I got out of the music business in 2000 because I watched my livelihood, the studios I worked in and literally HUNDREDS of labels completely evaporate in the span of 10 years.
And sadly, my jump to visual effects, where I've been for the last 26 years and almost 30 feature films... is failing in the exact same way.
Its so utterly depressing to see musicians turn into dog-eat-dog soulless capitalists. The best live music is INTENSELY collaborative. The best shows I have ever seen were great because of the moments that happened on stage between the musicians... something that can NEVER happen with heavily produced and dehumanized backing tracks.
I agree with you 1000%. Audiences pay (far too much) to see real, human musicians play music. They don't go to shows to watch someone play a computer.
We're seeing Jason Isbell tomorrow night (Antwerp, BE) and we are so glad he's touring with a real musicians - will buy some merch to support them
The 400 Unit is one of the best bands touring today, you’re going to have a great time.
@@RhettShull I got to see Isbell in Asheville unexpectedly, as a guest artist with the Allman tribute band called Trouble No More with Daniel Donato, etc. That show was *amaaaazing* .... Just looked up the 400 Unit tour dates, and of course they aren't coming to the PNW. Most of the things I want to see are too good for Seattle booking agents to know or care about them. I gotta move to the south. Sigh.
I got to see Jason at the Ryman last October, full band, 59LP & Dumble, amazing night
@@RhettShull It was fab! Also heaven for guitar-nerds 🙂
The point on "people don't care" is spot on. Having a great line up on stage is a huge privilege. People do care. They might not care about the effects etc being backing tracks but the instrumentation they do care about. The whole economy of the music industry is backwards though. It all relies on musicians, who are not making money, to spend money. I always laugh when people tell me how they "love" music or how "life wouldn't not be worth living without music" but complain when they have to pay to see bands etc.
I completely understand your frustration. And you are 200% correct. I remember two great articles about how things have changed. One was written by the guy who wrote Louie Louie. He described how making records was to inspire folks (kids), come to the shows which is how they made money. They supported themselves by playing live. Fast forward and it became about selling units i.e. records so the focus was on making the best record you could make to sell as many copies as possible. Completely different focus. And now lo and behold we are back to doing live shows to make a living. When Radiohead put out a record online effectively for free they asked their fans to pay what they felt it was worth. And some jackass from the Wall Street Journal wrote an editorial about how they were ripping off their fans. Stay with me here. His logic? The average fan paid x dollars for the record but it only cost Radio head a significant amount less to print the disc. Complete utter nonsense. The amount of training, practice, sacrifice, and serious real hard work it took those guys to get to the place where they could do what they did was completely ignored. Clearly the writer was incensed that the middle man was taken out of the equation. This needs to happen with the monopolistic companies like Live Nation and Ticketmaster who control not only the ticket sales but the venues as well. The other article was an editorial by Courtney Love. She broke down in great detail how bands back when could make a successful album, and tour, and still own money. It was quite an astonishing piece. I will end with Hunter's famous quote:
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”
Its not just a lame musical mindset, its the way of the world now. Its a massive shift in American mindset that literally everything needs to be 100% about making a profit
When whoever posted that says "Nobody cares", they're really saying that they don't care themselves - and that probably shows in their live performances. I get such a kick out of playing live with a band - the give and take between real musicians. I genuinely think that fun and spontaneity comes across to the audience.
Authentic creativity is called “art.” It’s unpredictable and exhilarating because it’s new.
I am not musician but I have been going to shows since 1979. I have seen everyone from the Eagles to Bad Religion, I can't even think of seeing a band that only using "Backing Tracks". This Dude is F'ing crazy, Most of us do care.... Thanks Rhett for setting the record straight
Well, backing tracks and lip synching for the Eagles now. They’ve sold out too.
As an ex hired-gun guitar player, I can see both sides. It used to piss me off to no end to see how EVERY “Top-tier” artist that we opened up for, would be playing to tracks. ALL OF THEM!! We were proud of the fact that we had near perfect 4 part vocal harmonies, but these dudes just pressed play! And every time I asked why, I got the same reason….money.
I get his comment that people don’t care, because he’s kinda right. Most of the people in the crowd were oblivious that there wasn’t a keyboard player, or there were tons of background vocals being sung by no one on stage. Now mind you, most of these were larger festival type shows, but I can honestly say, the people in the crowds were clueless…
Beardyman is an absolute genius Live Producer. He makes and remixes every sound with his voice and throws total raves. He tries to tell the audience every show “I’m doing this all with my voice” and hardly anyone cares. People just want to have a good time.
@ Yup……oblivious
Yeah, noticing is maybe what we can discussed, but it's a bit pointless. I think nearly all of the advantage with real players is how it feels. Modern DAW grid convenience songwriting undynamic performances might never become really alive, but songs that are fuelled by the push and pull of a great band that are used to perform together is all about what live performances are. That came first; before songs on record that people listen to at home.
Rock instrumentation is great because it fits as many people as can be defined and take place in a mix. It works audio wise but have it's advantage in humans performing like expressive humans. The sad thing is the disadvantage of not having as powerful and clean sounds as synthetic kicks and such. I love natural roomy sounding records with very defined performances but I think audioengineering nearly should become more radical to chase that clean and powerful sound programmed music, but with a great focus on highlighting expression; samples with velocity and such.
People don't notice or don't even choose the right thing, but they absolutely love expressive playing. We, on gobal level, just need to fucking kill the loudness war mindset and straightness of music that has sufficated dynamics and minimised the room for expression for a while now.
@ I TOTALLY agree!!! Used to chap my ass that we worked hours on 4 part vocal harmonies, while “bigger” artists we opened up for just pressed play. But I’d still have done it ourselves ANY day…
For me, it has always been about the craft in musicianship. DIY. Learning to get better in controlling sounds, amps, instruments, getting better at expressing yourself. No automation, stomping on those pedals yourself. It is hard AF. All my heroes did it and that’s what I’m still going for.
What is so depressing Rhett is just how endemic this $$ profit disease is in our country. Boeing used to be the best of the best at building airplanes, but slowly financial heads took over the company and decided to move to Chicago; ever since it's not about making great aircraft by great Engineers, it is about profit, ever higher profit margins. Intel... they got to resting on their laurels and same thing, instead of relying on the Engineers who designed your best products, they let financial heads run the company into the ground.
Referring to Uncle Larry, music is run by financial folks who demand it sound a certain way because that worked in the past and they are not musicians, it's all about the profit, THEIR PROFIT. If you try to compete they use their obscene money to buy you out and shut you down. Why compete when you can just put someone out of business?
I could go on and on, but suffice to say we live in a world where money has poisoned every well of creativity, passion and equitable living.
…..and that’s why Airbus has overtaken Boeing in manufacturing quality commercial jets.
The point everyone misses, is how the FED has destroyed the value of the dollar throughout its history.
As a 63 yesr old lead singer and guitarist in a covers band, we have a saying that’s as old as the hills. Definition of a professional musician: someone who puts £5000 worth of kit in a van costing £500 and drives it for 50 miles to then work for 5 hours and get paid fuck all. I have only ever done this for the love of it but I consider myself to be rich beyond my wildest dreams. I’m on a constant learning curve and the fruit of my labour is that I get to make some people happy on a Saturday night. I am doubly blessed that I am in a band with four other completely committed musicians. We are great friends, we never row or even get frustrated with each other, and it shows when we’re on stage. I also love going to gigs by the real professionals but I have noticed that the audiences are getting older too. Many of us grew up around musical instruments, church choirs, dance halls and school concerts. Most kids now are growing up with devices. As BTO used to sing, “you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet”. I hate to say it but AI is going to completely up end the whole music industry because the learning curve some of those kids will be on is bringing back to life long dead musicians, with new music that they never wrote when they were alive, with holographic performances created from original concerts. And the people won’t care.
It was not until I was 55 before I took up the guitar. I found the time for lessons and I have been in several small starter bands. Now I'm in a small duo (The Adjacents) with a vocalist/keyboard player. We have fun, but here in ABQ it is difficult to make much more than two beers and pizza. I don't play for food, not uppity, just would rather play for tips. After 13 years learning, and continuing to take weekly lessons, I love playing out, love being on stage. That's my payout. It would be better to be appreciated by venues and their managers to point of some level remuneration. We need to buy cables, picks, stage clothes, maybe a new rig. You cannot trade two beers and pizza or #25 split three ways with two other bands because the venue offers that as compensation. This post you offered is not the solution, in my mind. We are duo and make good music with the proper selection soul, blues, and rock adjacent (get it The Adjacents🤣) to the music work and entertain the audiences, and make us happy.
Dude, we need more people like you. I do have the perception some people don't care. I've been to concerts FULL on backing trakcs and no one seems to care paying hundres of bucks just to see the artist appear on state. WE NEED LIVE MUSIC!
When you said “I no longer tour because there’s no money in it” is exactly the reason why tours need to be profitable. I love you Rhett but you’re contradicting yourself. What other business model says it’s ok to lose money? This is the music “business” not the music “hobby”.
Any business that pays 80% of the people in the business less than a dishwasher in a restaurant isn't a business, it's a scam
Exactly. It's the reason we no longer have 18-piece jazz orchestras, or 3 backup vocalists, multiple percussionists etc. Cutting members have been ongoing for generations. This solution is for the fans to pay more for their ticket, donate to the band, buy merch, follow the band to multiple venues etc. That doesn't happen anymore either. But why wouldn't they pay 3-4 times more for a ticket? Well, some people just "don't care" as much as they used to.
On the other hand I saw Dave Mason live in the early 80s. Full band but he also used an alesis hr6 drum machine for added percussion, congas etc. He did have a drummer, he also had some synth tracks on a couple of song. The majority of the audience didn't know or care.
Also in the late 80s I played in a trio, with two great musicians. We couldn't find a drummer locally who could our material properly, so we programmed a drum machine and synth parts, to cover stuff we couldn't have done without a very large band. We broke many a sales record at local bars. Trick was the other two members of the band were monsters, and I was a great frontman. We even drummers come to hear us, and tell us they couldn't have played those parts.
There is a middle ground here. Not to say I wouldn't rather play with a band comprised of all live musicians. However going the route we did, we could make a living.
The guy who posted the statement in question that Rhett mentions, is the guy I hire to play live drums, LD and build play back for my project. He is referring to my project. Heres the facts: We run a fully automated light show with LIVE drums, LIVE vocal, LIVE guitar (2 live guitars on songs I also play on) and a LIVE banjo (when needed to perform a certain piece), the rest is inside tracks (this includes bass, synths, strings, soundscape/sound design and some backups vox). This is not uncommon and this is something we have found sustainable for us at this point in our careers. That doesn't say that additional live musicians won't be added in the future when the budget is available to COMFORTABLY accommodate taking those additional musicians on the road (we will likely have a live bassist by next Fall). Obviously everyone wants to have a live musician to perform every single part of the music on stage, however on a case by case basis this isn't always possible. However not at one moment was this a decision to "put extra dollars in our pockets". Its a decision made to pay the players and crew I have top dollar, allow them to eat well and sleep in decent hotels and not be crammed into some small van. Happy players that are paid well = better players with better performance. Take it as you will.
Well that sounds quite different to "It's 2025 no one cares. The only people who care you don't have a bass player live are bass player." I see your point. That drummer of yours still is a giant arse.
The thing is - I'm 100% sure people would not care about any of you playing guitar or banjo, same as you said for bass players. 😂
@ honestly probably 1000% true.
@ hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.
More power to you brother! Anyone actually going out on the road, playing their own music, and making a living at it deserves PRAISE, not criticism.
You're the man in the arena actually doing the deed. Rhett is in the crowd criticizing you for RUclips content.
Rhett makes money doing music-adjacent things on RUclips. You're actually making money performing music. Talking about music and giving your personal opinion about music on RUclips makes more money than ACTUALLY performing music.
So the very fact that you're profitable from performing music deserves respect.
Rhett is literally making money by generating content, specifically bashing a profitable touring Artist/Band. All it took was an hour of his time, and it's generating income for him.
The title of his video is "The Mentality that will Kill Live Music". He already gave up on performing Live Music! So to him, it's already dead. If he could make as much money being a touring musician as being a RUclipsr, he wouldn't have started a RUclips channel!
And he's knocking you for doing what you have to do while actually being profitable!
Rhett is just upset that bandleaders like you have to make the types of decisions that left him without work. There's nothing stopping him from doing what you're doing and leading a profitable band. It's HARD to lead a band profitable or not. Rhett just wants to be a "hired gun" side man.
You keep doing you. Obviously your audience likes what you're doing, which is why you're profitable from performing your music.
I wouldn't EVER knock a musician for leading a profitable band, like Rhett did in this video. That's simply unbelievable.
I have work in bands for many years and have always been a fan of "Live" without backing tracks. I think we are in a dark place in the music industry where DJ shows out sell live performances. I agree that having actual amps and people onstage is part of the experience. We don't have a keyboardist but instead of resorting to backing tracks, I just play keys and guitar at the same time lol! It may not be as good but its a performance thing that the audience appreciates. Seeing a human play is much more satisfying than having backing tracks do it for you.
Sorry man, this is a lost argument. The only reason people are bothering to do music anymore is because they love making music. There's a generational shift happening and no, they don't care about the band anymore; they're just as happy hearing a song and seeing a light show. As for just saving "a few thousand dollars" you've been a working musician long enough to know that you're lucky these days if you make a few thousand dollars playing; you even said you stepped away because RUclips was more sustainable. It's a hard pill to swallow, I've played professionally since the mid 90's and watched the swan song of the record industry and it's over. People are not going to suddenly start buying records again now that music is basically "free" and between recording, touring and maintenance costs most musicians are bled dry by the time it comes to dole out the paychecks. You don't have to like it, agree with it and you have to admit as much as it sucks that it does make total sense...unless you want ai to be the only source of music because that's the next logical step if music continues to cost you more to make than you can make playing music.
Here’s a white pill for touring musicians:
Once generative AI is good enough to make consistently high quality songs, the entire recording industry will die, and all that will matter is the live show and how good of a performer you are.
I think we’ll start seeing this in about 5 years. We’re about halfway there with stuff like Suno and Udio
@@whwh7339 THIS. As for now, we see more and more strange mathrock shows on underground youtube channels, full of kids on youdontwantoknowwhat and lit by one trashy par can. Things like this will be the reason to make and listen to music in the future; the experience.
Exactly right. I don't do live shows anymore because I don't really find incentive whatsoever being around people like this comment section. At all. I don't care about their opinions. I don't care about what they think is and is not "genuine" or "legitimate" or otherwise, at all. They act like they're owed something when they should be glad that they're getting any music at all. Because you're absolutely right, it's a ridiculous, high investment low return HOBBY and they don't have to be included at all in the hobby, very honestly
@@neilpatrickhairlessthere‘s economical aspects, but also craftsmanship, art and humanity to consider. Music has lost much of its identity shaping meaning, being replaced by other media, culture, or „content“. That we have to accept. Still not everyone wants to consume ai generated goop, music is also a celebration of humans enjoying a moment together, that includes audience and interacting artists. Watching bands with digital rigs is always weird to me. Ofc there’s stuff like soft choir singing that wouldn’t be possible with amps on the stage, but the instruments sound and play differently. Part of playing is taking up the challenge of the instrument‘s limitations. Ofc I‘m not a neutral observer, but I‘ve seen people nodding along to modern pop bands,filming and texting, and I‘ve seen a completely stuffed airport terminal jumping in sync to a Primus gig…
You quite eloquently put into words what has been running through my mind about the music "industry" for a while now. There is no industry. I applaud the folk making it now (as musicians) but the only revenue stream is in the supply chain to the musician, very little to nothing in the product. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
40 years ago I saw a band singing with 3-part harmony with only two singers and mics onstage. The third singer and mic was at the soundboard. It was a little bit odd that not all the musicians were onstage, but at least they were all in the room performing live.
Once again you've nailed it!
As a local gigging dive bar musician, I saw this coming.
First, in the 70's the union lost the bars to "scabs" (or so the older guys told me).
Then came karaoke and old school DJ's who were paid almost as much as a quartet ultimately driving down the amount the bars would pay for ANY entertainment.
Sophisticated tech followed starting with loop stations and drum machines enabling solo and duo acts to collect the same $ as an actual band.
Now with Ableton live, a laptop, and a triggering device, the pressure to go solo or duo is greater than ever. Bars are paying worse opening fewer slots to bands and they prefer not to give up the space it takes for a whole band.
If a solo act, a duo, a karaoke night, or a modern DJ can get butts in the seats, most bar managers prefer them.
We have pay-to-play around here. Whoever forks over the most cash gets a show and 'exposure'.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver
Yikes.
That is a sad statement on the value people are placing on live music.
I guess I should quit whining about the low $$ and be thankful we get paid at all?
@@markgawry4873 It was the kiddie 'punk' bands who did in the scene here. They 'stuck it to the Man', as in the unions that would have protected and paid them through dues. Thus the union wilted while the club owners smiled and made up crowd losses by extracting cash from WASPy rich kids with 'punk bands' (aka amateurs). Moms with minivans lined up outside the stage door while the 'label guys' with 'artist development contracts' lined up behind the moms ...
@@markgawry4873 Oh yeah, a 'major label' here now extracts 25 percent of its artists' LIVE earnings on the basis that "we develop their albums so we recoup our loss that way."
@@markgawry4873 Oh yeah, and the 'labels' here extract their artists' live earnings on the reasoning that "we developed their album sound so we regain our loss from their live work."
Nothing bores me more than seeing an artist with backing tracks. One step away from a jukebox.
Love the dynamic of a full band
I can confirm audiences care. I was in a cover band and we used backing tracks for keyboard parts. Guitar, Bass, and Drums were all us, but we didn't have a keyboardist so we created backing tracks. There were several times people would comment that we had backing tracks but at one particular bar we played weekly, there was a lady every week, that would yell at us at the top of her lungs, "YOU AREN"T PLAYING! THERE IS MUSIC BEHIND YOU! YOU AREN"T PLAYING!!!!" She was very, very angry about it. I suppose we should have explained that it was just the keyboard parts, but she was so angry about it she probably wouldn't have cared.
I just saw Slowdive when I was in Guadalajara, MX last Friday, and while they had some ambient tracks playing in the background, they had a full band playing, and they sounded, felt, and looked incredible. What really sold the experience for me was feeling the whole range of instruments, from the bass and drums thumping in my chest, to the guitars, keys and vocals tickling my ears. Everybody onstage looked like they were giving it their all, and the crowd nearly drowned them out at times with cheers and screams of adoration. I really admire their musicianship, and as someone who composes his own music, their performance truly inspired me more than any half-assed band with just a laptop and a guitar onstage ever could.
Oh, and another thing. It's not just here in the US that ticket prices have gone insane. Tickets to that show were about $42 USD per person, in a tiny, crowded venue. In Mexico.
They Might Be Giants and Ween both started as 2 guys and backing tracks on tour. They both eventually had full bands live, but that's when it was sustainable. You don't have to like it, but teh reality is that a lot of people will just not do it if they can't make it work financially. This isn't the 60s and 70s when record labels let bands gradually develop and the band actually pocketed everything from touring. This is the era of 360 contracts and the label milking every dollar from the band, plus the issues w/ticketmaster and live nation, not to mention clear channel owning so much of the radio in the US.
If you can get on the road with a full band, awesome. If it's you doing a one man show, hey at least you're out there. This video feels like you're really just gatekeeping what musicians should be, and frankly, fuck that shit.
This guy gets it.
Being a full time musician, for 99% of everybody, will never be comfortably profitable, regardless of how many people are in the band.
It’s just the way it is now, and it’s never going to change back.
The best shows I’ve been to in the last few years were by bands of people with good day jobs, who have the money to support their passion and bring the heat (and gear) night after night.
Real amps, punchy and full drum kits, real keyboards, etc.
Gone are the days where a group of young talented kids with no money are going to catch the ear of some record exec and launch in to stardom, at least in any facet of rock music.
The best thing a young aspiring musician can do is ensure they get a good education/trade and manage their finances properly, so they can actually pursue music in some capacity.
When he described the performer as someone in their crocs and pyjamas, with nothing but a laptop on stage, he basically described a DJ 😂😂😂
Not all DJ's there are some amazing artists out there spinning vinyl or running DAWless setups performing amazing live sets.
@@RhettShull facts, but there are also amazing performers who use nothing but digital means to promote their art. In the end, it's not that the audience couldn't care less, it's all about the music. If you can use your gear to your benefit, then more power to you.
True! 😄 also, why can't I see Rhett's reply here
Don't talk about Jacob Collier like that 🤣
Context I relation to the artist is important. I don’t expect Mike Dawes to have 16 instrument backing tracks. A few weeks back, we saw The Warning, Halestorm and Evanescence. Needed the musicians without a doubt (and two of rocks greatest female vocals….wow). Your friend Mary Spender just did a really cool tour. Her solo to start then the band for second half. Had she had prerecorded backing musicians for the second half there’d been no vibe. As long as you the audience knows what you’re in for it’s all good.
I was at one of those shows. I came particularly for The Warning but agree on the value of all of the musicians. I think you need the on-stage chemistry for that to work as well. Is it harder to pull together a good touring band if you are a newer act?
I'm a synth guitar player and I always get accused of using backing tracks. I take it as a compliment as I play everything live!
The reason I've played like this for the last 30 years is when we used to use a backing track it would go out of sync or we couldn't hear it. They were a pain to programme and set up. The only reason we used them in the first place was we couldn't find a keyboard player (there was a huge lack of compitent keys players who could play Chick Corea in early 90's Scotland. If they could, they were already too busy).
When I first played a brass part on my guitar synth at a rehersal the drummer luaghed so hard (in disbelief) he fell off his stool and knocked himself out on a metal radiator. I knew then it was a good thing!!!
Most people don't realise what I'm doing. I'm constantly battling with sound engineers who treat the synth sounds like an afterthought because they don't see a keys player, but it does give the band something unique when people are told it's me playing the keyboards (and guitar at the same time).
I'm not stealing the job of a keyboard player because most of the bands I play with don't use one, but they get one when I play with them. My original music is centred round the guitar synth (Nickjitsu-Hyperreal) and that is where I do occasionally have to use backing tracks. I hate them, but when your playing a modern music show, gear demo or doing a mastercass you can't not use them.
However if I go out with a band, it's a band and not a backing track in sight...........and **** your silent stages!
Greetings from great Britain...long live the guitar synthesizer...its a steep learning curve getting to grips with one...but man it's rewarding...so much so that when I plug into my Vox valve amp I'm kinda underwhelmed...that said I still do it as if you cannot sound half decent on an acoustic or just plugged into an amp you've had it...that said reverb and digital delay are very addictive...The Edge has been an addict all his life..he started out on gateway standalone pedals and now he freebases entire racks of digital gear....he uses loads vintage classic guitars to offset his habit...but ultimately he could use a 600 quid Mexican fender strat and it wouldn't make a difference in the long run...lol....BTW...actually I love The Edge...im just trying to be droll
god I want a guitar midi controller so bad but they’re so expensive…
Why do the sound engineers not see you playing keys?
There are two groups of listeners. The ones who genuinely don’t care because music is just seen as a commodity.
Then there are actual fans who love music and understand that music is a human creative process, and that the actual magic is in the spontaneous creative endeavour of truly live music. Musicians will always be at the heart of the latter.
My first concert was Van Halen in 1984. My ticket cost $13. I was a concert junkie in the 90's. For the price of a ticket today I want to feel the energy you bring not a recorded vibe. People play off each other, there is a beauty there that I seldom get from just music or a famous person on a stage.
That would be a $40 ticket today, and unless it absolutely sold out, Van Halen likely still lost money on the gig. But back then VH would have made millions from album, and single sales and radio play, touring was basically loss maker to help promote the album. The relationship has reversed in the new century, music sales, basically streaming, basically count for nothing unless you're a Taylor Swift or a Lady Gaga.
and guess what, Van Halen figured out how to perform songs that modern bands would use backing tracks for! They took sacrifices in regards to the instruments they would have to drop in order to execute it live (guitar, etc.), but that's the point of a semi spontaneous live performance.
They also wrote music with the intention of performing live...
@@DylanPank71 is Van Halen still in the Guinness Book of world records for the most money made on stage?
I saw Dire Straits in '92, full nine-piece stadium band, for $32. In 1997, Mark Knopfler solo comes through a small hall with his little pub band ... tickets $79 and $99. Yeah, right , NO.
Waiting in long lines for expensive tickets, expensive merch, expensive meet and greets. and still we come all excited for the show. Dam right that "bass player" better be there!
Well wtf do you think happened to horn players in the 80s up 'til now : yep, replaced with synths. I am sorry, but I will not be crying for other musicians being replaced. Stop being someone that no one cares about and be someone people care about : make your own music and be an artist as opposed to being someone's sideman. That is what I am teaching my students. Look at content creators, they're not sidemen.
Music as we know it only existed in the last years of humanity. Of course it's transforming. It's sad for us 90's kids but it's not a tragedy. Worse stuff happened to humanity. We just have to re adapt.
Sadly, he is right. Giant Popacts are lipsynching with autotune and people aren't even mad. People used to get so angry and would want their money back when they found out it was lipsynch.
Just to clarify I think this sucks
The funny thing is the biggest pop acts (who can afford it to be fair) are going back to live bands, or at least a mix of both. They want to give people a good show. Acts like Harry styles, Chappell roan, Billie eilish. Gives me hope.
People are used to it with pop acts, hell they even expect it: you're now seeing criticism of some 'bedroom' pop acts like Gracie Abrams who are just 'standing there playing a guitar or piano' instead of big choreographed numbers or Billie Eilish who's 'just' singing. It's bizarre.
Just a slight correction, if they’re lip-singing there’s no need for auto tune and yes I agree it does suck
@5:48: "....these monopolies being able to set the system up to benefit only them at the expense of the artists...."
I was around in the 70's and 80's. It's always been this way. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
It’s a harsh truth, and it’s heartbreaking when you work toward a dream of playing live only to be rendered ‘expendable’… really, really unfortunate.
Ironically, I ‘do’ think that there’s an apetite for it… folks love live music, but it’s an uphill battle.
Great conversation.
Dawless Live set dudes here mad that we get lumped in with Ableton Session bros thinking we just hit play 😭
Y'all are a whole another category. I recently got to see Look Mum No Computer live and it was a great show
You haven't backed up your feelings with any facts or data. Younger people are going to open mics with karaoke on their phones and their friends love it. Touring bands are playing for meals and hotel rooms. That's one step above busking. And homelessness. Solo artists are playing with machines that harmonize and add drums. Folk artists are playing with foot things that add bass drum to their songs. This makes it really hard for us naked solo artists to compete. Reality sucks sometimes. Take it or leave it or be soooo good you can't be denied. That is a very high bar.
I'll never be known as a "prophet", but I said two decades ago, the future of live musical performances would be a handful of stagehands, an audio-visual tech, and a supervisor going from venue to venue setting up a stage for a holographic projection. The band would perform the show - edited, of course, in a studio - and that performance would be replayed in every city. It's getting closer and closer to becoming a reality.
It’s part of the “I got mine (I don’t care about yours)” mentality. As musicians, creatives, we have to support each other a bit more.
The other side of that is bands around here. You go to a joint to see three bands ... but all three bands are in each others' bands just with a different singer.
"If being profitable as a touring artist is your #1 concern, I think you should find something else to do." -Rhett
My guy, if being profitable as a "musician for hire" is your #1 concern, I think YOU should find something else to do. That cuts both ways.
Zing!
You said it best Rhett; people care. They do, and they are not coming to show to listen to the music. They are paying to experience the music. Experience the energy in the room, the excitement of the band playing, it is all very palpable and that dude has no clue what he was talking about.
I think if you're putting virtual band members on tracks,
then you can't complain that "people just don't seem to care about live music as much as they used to"
@ facts. True passion and artistry is a dying art and we need as many committed people keeping it alive as possible.
You’re simply wrong if you’re claiming the majority of people care. The numbers don’t lie.
Artists like Taylor Swift aren’t really live and yet they’re the biggest around. Clearly the tens of thousands paying good money to see her night after night don’t care.
Sure, some people do, but they’re in a niche, which isn’t going to make for a sustainable career for the vast majority of bands.
@@jonathanmarkham1998 Taylor Swift has the most intense marketing campaign we’ve ever seen behind her, I don’t think that’s a realistic comparison.
Many of the biggest touring bands play without any tracks.
Like who?
Even bands I love like Muse are undoubtedly using tracks somewhere in their live performances.
I could name a few but they wouldn’t be the most mainstream ones on the whole.
I think the point isn't that no one cares. It's that musicians are now an added value, more than a necessity. I play with a pop artist that barely even has real guitar in his recordings, but he's starting to use a live band because it's cool. But no one is going to criticize you for playing on your own. It's better to play with tracks than to not play because you don't have the money to finance the show.
(4:27) "This industry has basically always been set up to benefit the people at the top." Isn't this the way EVERYTHING has always been set up?!?!?!?!
That’s anti-symmetric!
You'll see these comments about musician's cutting corners, and you can tell how much music means to them, THOSE types of musicians are making this all worse, and younger upcoming players are following this advice, which is very sad. Thank you, Rhett, you speak for a lot of real musicians out there!!
Last Summer I saw Styx and Foreigner and they were both using backing tracks. I noticed, because I'm a musician, but I don't know how much the rest of audience did.
well, how full was that room. How many people bought T-shirts? How many people followed them and saw them at multiple tour dates on that tour?
Again, blame the consumer. People vote with their dollars.
Come see us play live this Saturday in Madison NJ. Ask as us about it.
Let’s go!
Audiences don't care. Pitch correct, click tracks, auto-tune, and lip-syncing is becoming the standard for recordings and live performances. Everyone knows it and nobody cares but other musicians. In the old days, Milli Vanilli and Ashlee Simpson wrecked their careers when they got caught lip-syncing. Today people shrug so the practice grows. There are credible rumors that Don Henley mimed the singing during parts of the most recent Eagles tour. Where's the outrage and demand for refunds on expensive tickets? I play guitar and it saddens me but it's the future I see.
credible rumors? There's scientific proof that Don is miming, and yes the majority of people don't care. :(
Ed Sheeran fills stadiums with a guitar, a mic and a looper. The world has changed.
It’s not just the cost it’s the headache. Bad attitudes, lazy during setup and tear down, unwilling to take feedback, too freaking loud with no feel, inconsistent performance, drunks, stoners, and skirt chasers make having a band miserable. The egos and know it all attitude is unbearable.
I won’t join a band because I am not spending my free time messing with talented a$$holes jeopardizing my hearing and impacting my quality of life to play to people that pay attention to 15% of what you do. I can play in my music room with a backing track and enjoy it just as much. If I can do a solo show with backing tracks at a Marina a couple times a month and actually make money using backing tracks I’d do that.
Were I lucky enough to be able to tour on my own music I’d hire a backing band if I could and use backing tracks when I can’t. A trio would be the max I’d try to keep together as a unit. Two guitarist and a keyboard player. Split the bass lines. Have the drums programmed or hire a recommended local drummer.
I’m too old and too jaded to deal with the drama of a band especially when venues don’t pay any more for a a band than I made as a roadie in the 80’s and 90’s.
That's why power trios will forever reign.
I partially disagree on what you say, because, if you are young (or old but you’re starting something musically speaking) and trying to make your way up, having the backing track is a huge difference for you economically speaking - cos you can’t pay live musicians - but if you already managed to get all the way up: totally, hire musicians.
there are ways to perform your music without it needing it sound like the studio recorded track. Plenty of people perform alone with just an acoustic guitar. maybe with a looper even. It's way more engaging to watch a musician execute a song in a different way than just hitting the play button and playing over it.
@@tanneryordan But if that's not what your audience wants to see, then that's kinda moot
So just get a whole band together where everybody is involved creatively and performance-wise, no need to get 'hired guns' - no need to pay anybody - no need to get backing tracks
Unfortunately, you can't discount the tastes of the audience. Once upon a time, every town had dozens of live music venues all playing original music, but the audiences shifted over to DJs in the 80's and just kept going more and more in that direction. Today, mainstream audiences simply cannot bear going and listening to songs they've never heard to experience new music. They just don't want to do it.
100%. Nothing makes live music cheesier than playing to a track!
True!
tell that to Buckethead
@@jarrodhrobersonthe difference with him is that people aren’t expecting to see a band, they are expecting to see Bucket Head play guitar. In his position, I understand just using backing tracks because it really wouldn’t make sense to have a full band with him. It only makes a difference if you were to show up to see a rock band, but there’s only a guitar player, a singer, and a drummer, but you hear two guitar parts, a bass, and a keyboard being played.
This isnt the point of the video but you get a c- for the attempt
@@parkerkenney6859 True. It really depends on what people are paying to see
i generally agree with the sentiment of everything here, but i will note that i have seen a very cool artist that relied on tracks and didn't tour with any other musicians.
it was this french dude, touring around with his mom, playing tiny little DIY venues around the US. his show was a multimedia situation with video projections and an entire storyline. he had a custom built playback system and used triggers on his drum kit to play back video and audio cues, and for the guitar and bass tracks he sent them out to real amps in the room. it was incredibly powerful and engaging, and LOUD as all hell. so it can be done, it just really needs to be in the right context and you need to make up for the lack of energy from real musicians via other means.
The only thing I care about when watching live music is hearing musicians rip on their instruments. I sold merch at a theater for bands... The bands that got above average reactions and sales were the ones playing their instruments hard and well.
Hey folks. Check out Fil at Wings Of Pegasus. He’s currently calling out famous “artists” for using backing tracks and pre-recorded vocals. Don Henley/Eagles, Celine Dion, Taylor Swift. Those fans DON’T CARE. They just come for a “performance”. Live, backing tracks, autotune, pitch correction, miming. Their fans are being duped, and when Fil points it out they accuse him of hating the artist, and that they don’t care anyway.
It’s disgusting. We have to fight it.
@@SeekerGoOn2013 fight it how exactly?
@ Don’t buy the fake product, whatever form it takes. Shout it down when you recognize it. Tell others that it’s happening now, they may not know.
I get
your frustration, but how exactly do you intend to fight it? Unless people en masse start to care about it, musicians from the highest to the lowest level are going to keep doing it, because it's a practical solution. I feel at the moment, for people like us who do kind of care about it and miss the way things used to be, we're just becoming old men shouting at clouds as the expression goes.
@@SeekerGoOn2013 I don't buy it, and I do tell people about it, for what it's worth. But,as pointed out, millions of people don't care.
The market will decide if people care or not. There's an audience that doesn't care.... and there's a audience that does (Anybody watching this channel probably cares). People pay to listen to DJs spin a record and are okay with it.. it's not 100 miles away from that. Rhett talks about a friend that goes and plays music on his own terms is honorable.... but someone else that does it in a way that he doesn't like, is in a race to the bottom, even though they're still playing their music and might be able to support a family. People.... decide with your wallet.... if it matters to you, don't give your money.... if it doesn't... enjoy the show.
Exactly.
Bingo
This is the correct take.
The market will figure itself out.
If the show is good enought, great.
Playing everything live without tracks is simply another way to enhance the experience.
Believing that all a DJ does is “spin a record” is a mentality preventing many musicians from putting on better shows. Go watch a Carl Cox show and tell me all he does is push play. Arrogance is an obstacle to understanding.
@@JumboDubby Obviously not, great DJs are worth a lot.
Reading the room and seemlessly bringing the appropriate vibe is a massive skill.
But live music is a completely different category.
I don't think @Zappalrl's intent was to talk down on DJs.
I was recently waiting for a plane, and I saw a bunch of men with horn cases and Marc Anthony tour T-shirts. They told me they were all musicians on his traveling show. That shows the dedication to quality and authenticity, he could have one keyboard player, playing horn parts with one hand. Hats off to Mark Anthony, and performers and artists like him who keep other artists working and preserving the beauty of the authentic music. This is a very important video Rhett, and I’m glad you did it.
I am part a three-piece band in upstate South Carolina called 27 Birds… we have one musician who sings lead and backing vocals as well as playing keyboards. He can play various parts, such as bass with one hand and other keyboard parts with the other hand, at other times he plays on a five string electric bass and trombone. He recently bought a accordion, and we may add that to the act, too. Our lead guitar player also sings lead in backup vocals, and plays rhythm guitar, mandolin, banjo, and acoustic guitar, as well as harmonica and trumpet. I am the drummer, I also use Annalisa’s drum pad, system with triggers on my drums, so I played other musical parts on the pads that are not drum, sounds, including keyboard “washes” and bass parts. I also sang, lead them back up, vocals and play harmonica at the same time that I play the drums. The point is, we have a small band, but we are doing a lot of different things to add interest to the music, and interest for ourselves, as well as the audience.
Are used to love to go see Carlos Santana because he had a big band.
I agree with Rhett regarding the point of cost savings being really a bad motivation of using backing tracks and replacing amps. On the other hand: I just started using pads and additional vocals on backing tracks because we don’t have a keyboard player and more harmonies are just great. Like that, I just have more artistic options.
Yeah like, many artists don't have infinite budget and many venues don't have support for an entire orchestra so you can enhance the live experience, it's supposed to be a show in the end. Of course, I still think it's very important to prioritize live playing and use live players cause that's also the charm of the live experience, if I want to hear exactly what is in the album I just listen to the album, so it's a fine balance to not race to the bottom but also enhance the experience
I just feel that you have to be smart & adaptable to make the numbers work. I play guitar & sing in a 5 piece 80's rock cover band. However, the keyboardist & I have the ability to play the same sets with drum & bass tracks. This allows smaller venues that typically would not be able to fit a full band have a rock show & offer more to their patrons than your standard solo act. We also have full control over the volume allowing folks to converse while we entertain. Occasionally, a fellow musician may make a disapproving comment, but generally the response is positive as we are not trying to fool anyone. Just adapting to earn a few more bucks & utilizing technology to deliver a small stage show.
CORRECT! People do not care. Social skills have deteriorated to the point where half of an audience can be having a private conversation during a live show as if they were at home. They have to shout because of all the noise that the band is making. Then there's all those frigging phones in the air so that I can't see the stage. It's generally acknowledged that our attention span has dramatically dropped to a few seconds. The majority of people use their phone to listen to music and have no idea what it is supposed to sound like. None of those people care enough to be watching this and you're only preaching to the believers 😢
oh yeah man, the choir is all wrapped up in what my man Rhett The preacher is saying here, but it’s not the reality. People don’t care.
Agree 100%. Also realized that crowds and crowd reactions are getting more lame with every tour/show. People are starting to use their phones within the first minute of a show or movie, no more attention span. Also tired of paying a 25 to 30% convenient fee for tickets. Things are still a little better in Europe where people actually go to see the band, most Americans on the other hand go to a show to be with friends and have a good time, drink a lot and get high. Sometimes talk is so loud that you can barely hear the band.
@@poolman3693 Is that even an excuse? Have you heard a Beatles concert? If the performance is engaging enough, people won't need to be on their phones. Be the change you want to see. The audience being drunk and high makes it more fun.
The reality is for a lot of touring artists its not about being a "little more profitable" ... its the difference between making enough to live on, or losing money. I thinks it okay for you to choose to stop touring for whatever reason, but I think if anyone can write original music and manage to make a living touring it, regardless of the techniques employed, that's an achievement. (I prefer live instruments myself)
Totally agree with the rant - people want to see the music unfold from the stage and they don't want to see someone press play on their laptop. I played a gig last night, and I'm at my day job this morning (albeit goofing off watching RUclips videos). It took a while to be able to make both work and music fit into my life, but it was totally worth the the hard work to make it happen. Now, work is work, and music is joy and I can love making music and performing without worrying about paying rent. Keep up the good work!
As a young teen, seeing Taylor Hawkins, Chris Chaney, Nick Lashley, and Jessie Tobias get Alanis Morrisette's Jagged Little Pill album and elevate those songs live was incredible! I felt flat having to go back and listen to the album versions. That's got to be worth every penny of having a band with you. They brought those songs alive. I know that's big money in a different era... but people care, the young version of me had his mind blown by those session musicians.
A large amount of us live in rural or smaller communities where we are VERY limited to having access to other musicians and almost no access to hirable musicians for live gigs long term like more than one or two shows, and backing tracks are our best options to get the ball rolling for our music. Yes we WANT to have a bass player, and a live drummer on stage, we just don't have the option. To say it's wrong, or a race to the bottom because they are not on stage and you want to play and share your music and an audiences won't like that is just an oversimplification. What your saying is not wrong when you say focusing on the "wrong mentality" by focusing on the money, but your lumping ALL of us in together under using backing tracks and ONLY addressing this with one throw away line at 10:42 seconds into a 11 minute video is not ok. It's not right and you should know better. The "stray bullets" fired on this take are negligent. This should have been in the beginning of your "hot take" in my small and humble opinion.
Just look at your comments and how fast every diehard rock musicians ran to exclaim things like "Great Rant! Thank you Rhett. Let’s make live music great again." Or another example, "Yeah! Completely right. Real musicians are the thing. Amen."
I have fought to make using backing tracks for newer acts and musicians trying to transition from a solo act to a full band ensemble, and the amount of backlash you take from the old guard for using ANY backing track ever in a live show is harsh and tough to overcome.
The technology has come so far with backing tracks that playing live shows, even as a rock/metal/blues/guitar musicians you can put on a good show, and it can be used to go and recruit the right band members and still be growing a musicians skills in a live environment.
Thanks for listening and you make some of the best content for modern musicians and guitar players out there. Your work is appreciated. This should have been at the top of the comment, but I think it make my point a little better, being at the end.
agreed, this is the most privileged blues dentist coded video I have seen in awhile, but then checked out this dude's channel and he seems to have that mindset.
Rhett, you nailed it. The race to the bottom in live music is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Take the life out of your live performance to save money, then price gouge fans, and eventually people will stop showing up. The artists that are using backing tracks today will make boat loads of money on a couple tours, but after a decade or two of this, the live music scene will just die a slow, painful death.
Putting "an extra hundred dollars" and not putting anything in your pocket is a big difference. I do understand the original poster, it's not about replacing musicians when you can already make some money touring, but about starting touring when you can easily go broke by doing it. Playing something live is better than not playing live at all.
You get it.
Agree completely.
Rhett started his RUclips channel by himself without all the fancy production he has now. He worked with what he had to get started and improved his production when he could. I guess that logic of working with what you have doesn't apply to live music, though?
I'd rather see a great musician use tracks until they build an audience, network for band members, or get themselves in a financial situation to hire the personnel that they want, rather than put off their dreams of performing or give up on them entirely. We may lose a lot of great artists if they felt like they couldn't get started or make the art they want to make without meeting a certain budget threshold required to do it "the right way" in the eyes of elitists.
@@jakestewartmusic oh yeah, what worked for him though should be ignored because being a RUclipsr apparently is just a whole separate thing that has nothing to do with markets or customers or satisfying people’s needs or demands like bands do.
This entire take is so gatekeepy and revealing IMO. Rhett doesnt even think to consider that the poorest of bands freaking struggle to find musicians to fill spots. Im seeing artists in my local area get forgotten about because they cannot play live because they cannot replace the band member who just left, and cannot afford to hire another person. Not to mention self produced acts who dont have connections or the money to hire other musicians to begin with. Rhett is a guitarist for hire, of course he is going to rail against something that can replace him.
Until you find a person to fill that spot, you might as well continue to play live with a backing track. Dont let having less musicians stop you from playing live. Thats what i got from the thread he shared.
@ oh yeah, elitism is a cancer. No idea what this guy’s actually talking about in this video in response to my thread.
I’m a half decent guitarist but am often asked to play keys as well
In the last 6 months I’ve gone from guitars/tube amps/helix. Multi keyboards mixer etc etc
To now using a sp 404 Mkii.
It’s all me actually playing but now pushing buttons to fire parts in real time
People don’t care overall. Even the band I’m in prefer it because I can bring more sounds from daw set up, keys, guitar, vocals, sound fx
It’s been a one way road to the bottom since I started in the eighties
I have beautiful gear for me now, it matters to me but rarely to anyone else
I get the point idealistically. But if you're a touring act unless you're still a baby band supported by your parents, maximizing profit has to be your main concern. Otherwise what's the point of touring? Having done it forever, sure the thrill of playing and sharing your music drives you, but if there's nothing left at the end of the tour to pay your rent or mortgage or feed your kids then it's pointless.
Bingo
From someone whos been to a number of concerts. Your spot on Rhet. There is a huge presence to having all the members of a band on stage. It's fine to add things that might be hard to cover but most of the time those can be done without. Keep going Rhet. Love your work.
Boomer rant ..As a survivor of touring in the 70s my mind is scrambled by all of this. Like many others in the industry we were a band who had fire in our bellies and the ambition to knock the audience sideways from the first chord. Just lads with big amps, instruments and voices to storm the beaches. People came to see a band and many had their own favourite members of that band due to the music they made. They knew more about the bass player than we did but he made most of it up. We fecked around and It made it all fun and that showed in the music. We constantly challenged the songs themselves which is something a digital track can't do. What I'm saying is that if people pay to see a band and only get two people with tracks, which isn't a band, then its feels like a plastic fake. An Ableton track can't drag you up off the floor when the world is rough and put you back together like a band can. Loyalty meant we made money on gigs and records which I know isn't possible now and I feel so sorry for working musicians who deserve better. End of boomer rant.