NOTE: This trick only applies to radial errors. It will NOT address axial run out. However, from my experience the most common collet errors are radial. Cheers Rob
nice video--I've noticed that the smaller the Workholding capacity...the harder to get the collet into the chuck--and the greater the accuracy---the "springiness" (real word?) seems to result in larger variance with larger diameters. Overall though--I would agree its still better than my best 3 jaw...
Interesting observation. I had never thought about it, and just put it down to machining variations between brands/makers. I have five ER32 collet chucks/blocks and collet insertion tightness varies between all the nose caps, regardless of collet size. Cheers Rob
Good job Rob, I love my little collet set, Mine use a Morse #3 taper adapter for my lathe and it makes life easier time to time. Nice to show they can be tweaked into submission. Cheers mate!
Collets are just the best thing you can add to a lathe. Unfortunately most people tend to think of them as high end tooling that only "experts" use. They couldn't be more wrong. You can see from my collet gear they get a lot of use. OK, the cheapie stuff may not be super accurate, but it still enables you to do work that would be an ordeal with standard chucks. Enjoy your collets. Cheers Rob
Hey Rob. Thanks for digging into this a little more. I like the way you measure the collet system as it was intended. ER collets and collet chucks are designed to work together as a system. I wonder if it would be beneficial to actually machine a sample piece and measure it between centers to evaluate the results outside of the lathe. Runout might not translate to the parts as one might expect.
Great information Robbie, thanks for sharing. Day's are starting to get longer here in the Pacific Northwest, USA, means day's down under are getting shorter. Today we had a 52 Degree (11.11°C.) Mother nature teasing us, now watch in a week or two, we'll get hit with the Canadian British Columbia, Fraser Valley ice box express. Grab a cold one, sit back enjoy, you earned it mate.
Excellent tip this is a must. So if you mark the chuck and mark the collet for the best result. You could do this for all your collets. You've just answered my question as I'm typing lol. Tony
Good stuff Rob! I bought a mess load of import ER25, ER32 collets, & MT2 adapters a while back and the machining on them is really good but I will check them out with a test indicator in the future just to double check them. Cheers, Doug
Good post, just been wrestling with run-out on a Chinese D1-4 ER 40 collet holder which when combined with the Chinese ER collets makes for similar run-out problems. After considering re-grinding the taper in the holder with a jury rig of some sort, I'll not bother!!
Some what like balancing an auto tire ,every tire has a heavy side,so does every wheel,by placing these heavy spots opposite each other the tire can be balanced with less added weight.but of course you knew that.lol . I said all that to let you know I understand the process. Thank you for your videos and the solutions they offer I find them very helpful. (And remember we are all ignorant just about different things. ) so said Will Rogers Thanks again Jim
G'Day Rob- have a look-see at Monaghan Tooling Group EasyZERO Compensation Nut. www.easyzeronut.com/home and monaghantooling.com/products/ They produce an adjustable collet nut which is pretty interesting. (no affiliation what-so-ever) They are a bit expensive but worth having a look at just to check them out. Someone else watching might have some experience with these and could chirp in.......
Hi Anthony, that's very interesting. I hadn't seen that before. I'd be interested to see comments from anyone who has used one. It doesn't say if it adjusts radially or axially or both. Cheers Rob
I do the same thing with my cheap ER's. If I need more wiggle-room on the lathe, I can loosen the backing-plate bolts and tap the collet chuck over a scosh. Your solution is the only thing that will help when I use the collets in my mill :(
Good stuff Rob. PS: Are you going to the machinists meet up in early October in Melbourne? Would be great to meet and shake your hand (and buy you a beer). Cheers, Craig
You make a good point about taking two runout errors and trying to get them 180 out of phase rather than in phase with each other to try cancelling the errors on install. Have you made a mark on the collet chuck with an engraver? It would be handy to engrave a line on the face of each collet to index to the chuck mark so you can quickly install the collet with the least error without having to try various positions.
@@Xynudu Rob, the blocks/collets were not concentric, I have a shop that is going to measure the square block and the hex block on their CMM unit and give me a report. It will be interesting if the blocks are not concentric where the issue is and if I can grind to correct....the collets are of course another issue....
I reviewed a BG square collet block a while back and it was quite OK. The sides were parallel and the collets could be clocked in OK in a 4 jaw chuck. There was no longitudinal divergence. I use it very often for a multitude of work holding requirements. Much later I relented and reviewed some of their supposedly improved, high accuracy collets and they were just as bad as the earlier ones (50% of them were) as reviewed by a few other trustworthy channels who tell it how it is. I also have grave reservations about those Sanou chucks they and everyone else sells. from what I've heard Sanou is an offshoot of Fuerda. and they made some real crap when they moved to China. I made the mistake of buying a Fuerda scroll chuck for the Scaublin and promptly returned it. Total junk. The reviews I see on Sanou don't inspire me at all, especially when you have to de-burr one to get it half decent. Banggood do sell some excellent tooling, but collets and lathe chucks don't seem to be among them ;) I review their gear, they respect my opinion, and I am always very selective about what I check over. No one wants to buy crap. Cheers Rob
You know Rob, there are people that complain about the Sun coming up. My wife refers to those types of people as ducks, they squawk alot and peck at you but don't do any harm. To them I always point out that accuracy comes at a high cost, how much are they willing to pay. I'm a hobbyists so accuracy of 0.06mm is will within my means but then again I'm not Boeing building a rocket that lives are depend on, I only make models and toys.
Hi Craig, yes, we tend to get carried away with this stuff and forget how suitable it is for most jobs. We don't live in a perfect world and trying to make it that way can send you crazy. In the end, provided it does the job is all that matters. Cheers Rob
Have you considered that maybe the inside surface of your nut doesn't close perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the lathe? Just for kicks, I'd apply some bluing on the face of the collect, tighten the nut some, and see where you actually have contact.
I should add another comment Rob--those square collet blocks that you use in the 4 jaw-the opposing sides have to be parallel and on the 4 jaw chuck the same..If not its trouble..I have gone to the trouble to fix both..
sometimes you can stone the taper with an extra fine Arkansas stone just find the high spots not to remove material. also break the edges on the slots helps. yes it sounds wrong, but i have had to do it to brand new collets, i run 4mm drills 20xD and need the run out down to .0005" at the tip.
Not really Raymond. The quality/machining of the nut will. Any errors in that will throw out the collet reading, even a loose thread is not good. The ball nuts reduce effort and get things tighter, but that's the only difference. I find the standard nut quite OK with a decent half circle collet spanner. The single point pin wrenches that usually come as standard are not so good. Cheers Rob
There is most certainly run-out between the collet's outside taper and the inner bore. There is a good possibility that the inner bore isn't parallel to the center line of the outside taper. There also is a possibility that the inner taper of the chuck isn't concentric with the chuck shaft. All these things need to be verified.
@@Xynudu Brother, unfortunately many people can't afford to buy decent tools (I'm one) and therefore resort to buying cheap Chinese trash. I purchased many of these items, and I can guaranty that 99% of it is pure trash. Virtually all had some defect. For example, it's soft, or the quality of the product is seriously low class, or a person has to modify the trash to make it work, etc. A friend and myself just bought ballscrew sets. A child would know that this trash came from China. The angular contact bearings in the one end support was replaced with standard cheap trash Chinese bearings. On mine the bearings just dropped out when you shake the end support. I had to machine the one end of the ballscrew shafts (where the coupler would fit) which had a 0.3 mm run-out. This is what we sit with now. We will buy angular contact bearings from Amason to replace the Chinese trash.
I haven't seen anyone use ER collets for wood work. But that's not to say it's not done. They may be used for pen making and if so then you would want good accuracy, same as for metal. Cheers Rob
Only thing Rob if its not repeatable without mucking around its a liability,you waste so much work time.. Those DIN standard collets you advised me to buy have arrived and I have been using them with great pleasure--they repeat with great accuracy over and over again..My first set were trash,the collet chuck had to be adjusted with every piece of new material and annoying as hell..It was the reason I made a collet chuck that could be adjusted in the 4 jaw..
Another thing to consider is that your measurement is from the center of the extending work piece. If you measure from the root of the piece (that portion closest to the collet) and then again from the farthest part of the workpiece from the collet you may find that you have different readings, even though you have what looks like little runout at the center of the workpiece.
I may not have shown it. I did the video quite a while back. You always check axial runout with any chuck. The main issue with most cheap collets is radial run out and the remedy shown is only for that. From memory I did mention this in the comments or video description. Cheers Rob
I seem to remember mentioning this in a previous video. I do this with most tooling, and them mark everything as to where it’s best. It’s repeatable. Do this with table saw blades as well. Always tighten by the same amount.
Great tip best of all the tips I've seen!🤙
i ll add color marks on collet and chuck
You failed to show or mention your spindle run out.
WE JUST TAPPED THE HIGH SIDE OF THE COLLET WITH A SOFT MALLETT
Can you grind a collet
Yes, provided you have a suitable stone of sufficient length with the correct diameter.
NOTE: This trick only applies to radial errors. It will NOT address axial run out. However, from my experience the most common collet errors are radial. Cheers Rob
nice video--I've noticed that the smaller the Workholding capacity...the harder to get the collet into the chuck--and the greater the accuracy---the "springiness" (real word?) seems to result in larger variance with larger diameters. Overall though--I would agree its still better than my best 3 jaw...
Interesting observation. I had never thought about it, and just put it down to machining variations between brands/makers. I have five ER32 collet chucks/blocks and collet insertion tightness varies between all the nose caps, regardless of collet size. Cheers Rob
That's a great tip, Rob! More accuracy from your ER collets at no cost.
Good job Rob, I love my little collet set, Mine use a Morse #3 taper adapter for my lathe and it makes life easier time to time. Nice to show they can be tweaked into submission. Cheers mate!
Collets are just the best thing you can add to a lathe. Unfortunately most people tend to think of them as high end tooling that only "experts" use. They couldn't be more wrong.
You can see from my collet gear they get a lot of use. OK, the cheapie stuff may not be super accurate, but it still enables you to do work that would be an ordeal with standard chucks.
Enjoy your collets.
Cheers Rob
G'day Rob. Thanks for the video.
Hey Rob. Thanks for digging into this a little more. I like the way you measure the collet system as it was intended. ER collets and collet chucks are designed to work together as a system. I wonder if it would be beneficial to actually machine a sample piece and measure it between centers to evaluate the results outside of the lathe. Runout might not translate to the parts as one might expect.
Great information Robbie, thanks for sharing. Day's are starting to get longer here in the Pacific Northwest, USA, means day's down under are getting shorter. Today we had a 52 Degree (11.11°C.) Mother nature teasing us, now watch in a week or two, we'll get hit with the Canadian British Columbia, Fraser Valley ice box express. Grab a cold one, sit back enjoy, you earned it mate.
Thanks Rob, I will give it a try. I use ER32 and ER11 collets both sets are bought from Aliexpress and I am sure they all come from the same place.
Excellent tip this is a must. So if you mark the chuck and mark the collet for the best result.
You could do this for all your collets. You've just answered my question as I'm typing lol. Tony
Good stuff Rob! I bought a mess load of import ER25, ER32 collets, & MT2 adapters a while back and the machining on them is really good but I will check them out with a test indicator in the future just to double check them. Cheers, Doug
Thanks
Good post, just been wrestling with run-out on a Chinese D1-4 ER 40 collet holder which when combined with the Chinese ER collets makes for similar run-out problems. After considering re-grinding the taper in the holder with a jury rig of some sort, I'll not bother!!
Some what like balancing an auto tire ,every tire has a heavy side,so does every wheel,by placing these heavy spots opposite each other the tire can be balanced with less added weight.but of course you knew that.lol . I said all that to let you know I understand the process. Thank you for your videos and the solutions they offer I find them very helpful. (And remember we are all ignorant just about different things. ) so said Will Rogers Thanks again Jim
Brilliant
Thank you for this video Rob. Smart approach!
Great tip , I have been thinking of using gage pins as test piece.
G'Day Rob- have a look-see at Monaghan Tooling Group EasyZERO Compensation Nut. www.easyzeronut.com/home and monaghantooling.com/products/
They produce an adjustable collet nut which is pretty interesting. (no affiliation what-so-ever)
They are a bit expensive but worth having a look at just to check them out. Someone else watching might have some experience with these and could chirp in.......
Hi Anthony, that's very interesting. I hadn't seen that before. I'd be interested to see comments from anyone who has used one. It doesn't say if it adjusts radially or axially or both. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu No worries - If you talk them into sending some for you to do a review, just remember me , I'd love to get one too :)
That would be nice, but unlikely. Most retailers are pretty tight fisted. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Yeah I hear you....
....and the "TIP OF THE YEAR" award goes to.... XYNUDU!!!
That calls for a beer ;)
Great tip--Thanks for sharing!
I do the same thing with my cheap ER's. If I need more wiggle-room on the lathe, I can loosen the backing-plate bolts and tap the collet chuck over a scosh. Your solution is the only thing that will help when I use the collets in my mill :(
Hi Thanks for the tip, perfect!
Good stuff Rob. PS: Are you going to the machinists meet up in early October in Melbourne? Would be great to meet and shake your hand (and buy you a beer). Cheers, Craig
Hi Craig, No I will have to pass on that. I've done a RSVP on it. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Ok, no worries. Perhaps some other time - one day we'll get around to exploring Barossa and McLaren Vale!
That is a great tip thanks
You make a good point about taking two runout errors and trying to get them 180 out of phase rather than in phase with each other to try cancelling the errors on install. Have you made a mark on the collet chuck with an engraver? It would be handy to engrave a line on the face of each collet to index to the chuck mark so you can quickly install the collet with the least error without having to try various positions.
I suggested that in the video. I haven't done it to my cheap set as I swap between lathes. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu My apologies, I must have missed it - was watching it while trying to feed my toddler son his lunch (which is an adventure in itself . . .)
Great info...just got a BG er32 set and will be doing a review on the square/hex block and collets
I will be interested to see how the collets clock up. BG don't have a good reputation for their collets being accurate ;) Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Rob, the blocks/collets were not concentric, I have a shop that is going to measure the square block and the hex block on their CMM unit and give me a report. It will be interesting if the blocks are not concentric where the issue is and if I can grind to correct....the collets are of course another issue....
I reviewed a BG square collet block a while back and it was quite OK. The sides were parallel and the collets could be clocked in OK in a 4 jaw chuck. There was no longitudinal divergence. I use it very often for a multitude of work holding requirements.
Much later I relented and reviewed some of their supposedly improved, high accuracy collets and they were just as bad as the earlier ones (50% of them were) as reviewed by a few other trustworthy channels who tell it how it is.
I also have grave reservations about those Sanou chucks they and everyone else sells. from what I've heard Sanou is an offshoot of Fuerda. and they made some real crap when they moved to China. I made the mistake of buying a Fuerda scroll chuck for the Scaublin and promptly returned it. Total junk. The reviews I see on Sanou don't inspire me at all, especially when you have to de-burr one to get it half decent.
Banggood do sell some excellent tooling, but collets and lathe chucks don't seem to be among them ;)
I review their gear, they respect my opinion, and I am always very selective about what I check over. No one wants to buy crap.
Cheers Rob
You know Rob, there are people that complain about the Sun coming up. My wife refers to those types of people as ducks, they squawk alot and peck at you but don't do any harm. To them I always point out that accuracy comes at a high cost, how much are they willing to pay. I'm a hobbyists so accuracy of 0.06mm is will within my means but then again I'm not Boeing building a rocket that lives are depend on, I only make models and toys.
Hi Craig, yes, we tend to get carried away with this stuff and forget how suitable it is for most jobs.
We don't live in a perfect world and trying to make it that way can send you crazy. In the end, provided it does the job is all that matters. Cheers Rob
Have you considered that maybe the inside surface of your nut doesn't close perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the lathe? Just for kicks, I'd apply some bluing on the face of the collect, tighten the nut some, and see where you actually have contact.
That would cause axial run out. This is radial run out.
love it... thank you
You're welcome Jim. Cheers Rob
Good one Rob
Simple and effective
That's a great tip Rob, I would never have thought of doing that. Cheers, Alan.
I should add another comment Rob--those square collet blocks that you use in the 4 jaw-the opposing sides have to be parallel and on the 4 jaw chuck the same..If not its trouble..I have gone to the trouble to fix both..
Yes. I did mention in the video that you may have to shim the jaws for any axial run out. Cheers Rob
sometimes you can stone the taper with an extra fine Arkansas stone just find the high spots not to remove material. also break the edges on the slots helps. yes it sounds wrong, but i have had to do it to brand new collets, i run 4mm drills 20xD and need the run out down to .0005" at the tip.
Good tips Corey. Some of the really cheap and bad collets I've seen could certainly benefit from edge breaking and a deburr. Cheers Rob
Hello I love tip and tricks that don’t cost.
Great tips to make cheap work for the home workshop. I was told that no matter how worn or out the kit is, if you know about, you can work around it.
Yes, there are plenty of worn machines out there that people still get good results out of.
Thanks Rob
Do you think the style of collet nut could effect readings? I see the bearing style of nuts being used, what’s your thoughts?
Cheers
Not really Raymond. The quality/machining of the nut will. Any errors in that will throw out the collet reading, even a loose thread is not good.
The ball nuts reduce effort and get things tighter, but that's the only difference.
I find the standard nut quite OK with a decent half circle collet spanner. The single point pin wrenches that usually come as standard are not so good. Cheers Rob
Thanks, very good tip
Outstanding, many thanks.
There is most certainly run-out between the collet's outside taper and the inner bore. There is a good possibility that the inner bore isn't parallel to the center line of the outside taper. There also is a possibility that the inner taper of the chuck isn't concentric with the chuck shaft. All these things need to be verified.
All things are possible.
@@Xynudu Brother, unfortunately many people can't afford to buy decent tools (I'm one) and therefore resort to buying cheap Chinese trash. I purchased many of these items, and I can guaranty that 99% of it is pure trash. Virtually all had some defect. For example, it's soft, or the quality of the product is seriously low class, or a person has to modify the trash to make it work, etc. A friend and myself just bought ballscrew sets. A child would know that this trash came from China. The angular contact bearings in the one end support was replaced with standard cheap trash Chinese bearings. On mine the bearings just dropped out when you shake the end support. I had to machine the one end of the ballscrew shafts (where the coupler would fit) which had a 0.3 mm run-out. This is what we sit with now. We will buy angular contact bearings from Amason to replace the Chinese trash.
nice tip. but before buy hve to know if you buying ER collets for woodworking or metalworking - big differance on accuracy needs
I haven't seen anyone use ER collets for wood work. But that's not to say it's not done. They may be used for pen making and if so then you would want good accuracy, same as for metal. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu I have cnc router what have ER collets. Grizzly makes woodworking shapers with ER colletc in axles.
Hi Rob. A while ago you demonstrated how to braze with propane gas. my question is , is that torch available from Bunnings?
No. It is only available from a few specialized gas supply outlets in Oz. Search Ebay or Google and you will see a couple. Cheers Rob
thanks for the quick come back Rob.
Great tip Rob, love my collet set. It got a work out on my lathe over the Christmas break. Keep the tips coming, really enjoy your videos 👍🏻
Collets are the best.
Only thing Rob if its not repeatable without mucking around its a liability,you waste so much work time..
Those DIN standard collets you advised me to buy have arrived and I have been using them with great pleasure--they repeat with great accuracy over and over again..My first set were trash,the collet chuck had to be adjusted with every piece of new material and annoying as hell..It was the reason I made a collet chuck that could be adjusted in the 4 jaw..
Another thing to consider is that your measurement is from the center of the extending work piece. If you measure from the root of the piece (that portion closest to the collet) and then again from the farthest part of the workpiece from the collet you may find that you have different readings, even though you have what looks like little runout at the center of the workpiece.
I always do that. It's standard procedure for checking axial runout.
@@Xynudu I guess I missed it in this video. 👍
I may not have shown it. I did the video quite a while back. You always check axial runout with any chuck.
The main issue with most cheap collets is radial run out and the remedy shown is only for that. From memory I did mention this in the comments or video description.
Cheers Rob
I seem to remember mentioning this in a previous video. I do this with most tooling, and them mark everything as to where it’s best. It’s repeatable. Do this with table saw blades as well. Always tighten by the same amount.
Yes, it's basic error stacking/correction, but most hobbyists don't consider the effect. Worth a video. Cheers Rob
xynudu yes, it is. More people should know about it.
Tolerance stacking increases!!! ^^
Great tip Rob. Thank you.
Interesting video Rob.
you can also bump the back plate of any chuck ,sometimes gives you a more accurate reading.
Bump ?
@@Xynudu loosen the mounting bolts and use a soft blow hammer.used this method on collet and normal chucks
hit the chuck,rotate,hit,check the dial guage.it will move.re-tighten chuck bolts to backing plate.
Always nice to see how the master does it!
Cheers Rob,
ATB,
Cliff
Try tapping stock in collect to adjust run out. Same principle.
Not really. That is a totally different principle. It has nothing to do with machining error compensation. Cheers Rob