I was going to have this on in the background while I did some work (working at home currently). So far 95 percent of my attention has been on John Larsen and about 5 percent on my work.
2:04:06 I felt the spirit! Or whatever you want to call those "tender" feelings; when John is talking about the woman in Jesus's life. So cool! Such a great explanation on the book of Mark!
I absolutely love John Larsen! He’s exactly right. I have for years taught my children that Christ isn’t a Christian as defined by the actions of the so called Christian churches
Really fascinating episode, many choose to leave everything behind after a mormon faith crisis, and yet many have difficulty coming to terms with the inaccuracies and the possibility that Jesus wasn’t what they were taught about as we were truly taught to worship lds prophets in the mormon faith. Hence the negative comments as it challenges them to confront the possibility that religion in general has always been selling you something. I absolutely agree with what was put forth in this episode and love the evidence used and shared with us. I think its important to always question and challenge preconceived notions. Thank you Mormon Stories, John Dehlin, John Larson etc. for always encouraging us to do so as well. 🤗
I am finishing up the crisis in “Faith crisis”. Just a 📝. I was helped by listening to Dr. Jordan Peterson, reading all of “Rough Stone Rolling”, and just finishing up Book of Enoch. This has all been an intense work but so worth it
Love everyone you come in contact with as much as possible,take people out of there problems for a while . Everything outside this is trivial or not as important
I love John Larsen’s intellect and straight forward no BS-ing way of speaking. Right on about Jesus being anti-establishment and how far Christians have strayed from Jesus’ teachings.
Whew. My brain and heart hurt. Thank you, John for forcing me to look at myself. Your tender spirit made me weep for the last hour of your message. I am seeking knowledge and understanding of purpose. 🙏 thank you so much P.S. I am also a new follower of the sage, Jordan Peterson. Need I say more? 😊
If you're joking about Peterson, I apologize. Otherwise I would *strongly* encourage you to expand further out from Peterson if you want to get away from the traditional Patriarchal thought stopping techniques encouraged by his writings. There are some great responses to Peterson's most famous book on RUclips - Hannah and Jake for example did a chapter by chapter response to Peterson. But you do you, just be careful of not going from one high control group to another that can lead to such groups as QAnon.
Mr. Larsen nails it. The Church could use their wealth to do so much to help the world which was a main reason why I left. I told my Dad that I believed in a different Jesus then he did.
The fig tree discussion… utter gold. I always understood it as Jesus is human (and implies he isn’t divine) and he got hangry af like we all do from time to time. 😂
Uh, guys, I think you might have messed up the video somehow. It's now starting several minutes in, the sound cuts off at about 2:03:00, and it's stuck on a still image of John at about 2:12:00. Fix? EDIT: There we go. The timestamps are still pretty screwy, but the episode is at least here in its entirety. Thanks.
Back in ancient times--1970's--when I was in college, my old testament professor, who used the RSV (NRSV was not a thing then), pointed out the many ways words had changed and the KJV had not kept up with the times. He pointed out as well that the KJV was dumbed down from the start to be readable with most people's vocabulary of some 5,000 words as compared to Shakespeare's 20,000 words and tenses. The best advice he gave us as freshman was, "Please go to church, but don't check your mind at the door." Advice I have always followed much to the consternation of several clergy and bishops. 🙂
These John Larsen episodes are so valuable. Is there a transcript of this anywhere? So so good. Thanks John Larsen. These presentations ad charity, and make me want to be a better human. I'm on 12 hour shifts at work listening to MS episodes. Have had a bunch of teary moments. These are life changing. Thank you.
Many years ago after my wife and I left the morg, we put our temple clothes up on eBay. We had lots of photos and a very high buy it now price. The idea was that some church member would panic about the photos and do the buy it now to get it off. Worked within a few minutes.
I remember when I was in the process of leaving, a nevermo friend of mine said something like, “do you want to live your life picking flowers or do you want to live your life to the fullest?” His quote was better but it was one of those things like John said.
When I left Mormonism I found Jesus. Have always had a belief in God. I purchased a ESV Bible. Starting reading it with the eyes of a child. It is now where I find my truth.
I spent a significant amount of time on my mission trying to understand the "deeper meaning" of the fig tree story. It doesn't make any damn sense, it's so good to hear you say that!
@@brisingr4726 ...yet very firm and clear on his position. He does not mince his words and gives no slack to TSCC (and as we saw/heard today to Christianity as a whole).
Learned a lot from Timothy Frekes books at the beginning of my exodus (9yrs ago). Former seminary teacher- the NT Bible broke me; lost my believe in all manmade religion, the Mormon God and Jesus. Thanks John Larsen❤️
You can learn most of this by reading some wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, not everything John says here is quite accurate, for example, the council of nicea had nothing to do with forming biblical canon
Mark is my favorite of the gospels. It's the most raw and most unpolished. Mark's Jesus shows human emotions like fear, sadness, and anger. I love how John L can take an academic topic and make it interesting for a general audience. Question for John L: do we know for sure that Christians were heavily persecuted under Nero? If so, is there a good reference for that? John D, you should interview Richard Carrier and/or Robert Price. Their perspectives on Jesus are fascinating. I don't agree with all of their conclusions, but if you want a quick, interesting read, try Jesus from Outer Space by Richard Carrier. He and other "mythicist" scholars make a very compelling case that the entire book of Mark was written as an allegory. Paul, who lived decades before Mark was written (and whose epistles were written in the 50's), doesn't seem to know any of the biographical/historical details of Jesus' life that Mark knows about. Also, here's one common interpretation of Mark's fig tree story: Jesus curses the fig tree (even though it's not "in season"), then goes and drives out the moneychangers from the temple, and then comes back to find that the fig tree has withered. This was supposed to be symbolic of the Jewish temple being destroyed (it was no longer the "season" for temple sacrifice), therefore, Christians from that time forward could accept Jesus' sacrifice rather than having to perform animal sacrifice rituals at the temple. This is one of the ways scholars deduce that Mark was probably written after 70 CE, because at this time, Jews and Jewish-Christians were having to come up with excuses for the temple being destroyed by the Romans. 'See? Jesus predicted this was going to happen 40 years ago! His sacrifice made it so we don't need a temple anymore!'
Thanks John Larsen! You are a breath of fresh air! So, separate from religious stuff, For people that are isolated Hopeless and crushed by loneliness what can they do to help themselves?
I am a convert to the Mormon church and what bothered me was that they made me feel that the Bible wasn't important! They did not focus on the Bible even when we were studying the old and the New testament the prophet was in the background saying read your book of Mormon every day read your book of Mormon, why not say read the Old testament while we're studying it read the New testament while we're studying it, no it was read the book of Mormon so much, Like the prophet didn't want us focus on the Bible!!!
I'm sure that there are millions of Christians who are the kind of Christian my mother was. She grew up as a Southern Baptist in the south, moved to California when she was 24 and never again went to a Baptist church, or any other church except for weddings and funerals. She never talked with me about Jesus or God, but when she was dying in the hospital, a chaplain came into her room and asked if she wanted him to pray with her. He then asked her what church she belonged to and she answered "Baptist". I was watching this and had a strange feeling of how could a person still identify as a Baptist after living 45 years without ever having contact with that church or talking to her son, who she loved more than anything, about Jesus and God? My conclusion is that she really didn't know much about religion, never read the Bible, never saw the need for a church family, and lived a good moral and ethical life. She didn't think well of "religious" people who go around carrying a Bible and trying to "save" the lost souls as they see them. So I think there are countless "Christians" out there like my mother. Christianity is weaker than the stats indicate.
Lol just wanna say the preshow was thoroughly entertaining. I love Carahs confidence. I listened to her Mormons on mushroom interview earlier and was fascinated to learn how her descent into nihilism released her from desire so she could just do exmo content with no effs to give (the story about the book art of not giving a f is hilarious) ! Anyway- funny to watch this episode today after that background. I’m only 10 mins in and it’s so obvious that Carah pushed for the preshow, which made all the older white dudes uncomfortable lol. They kept making backhanded comments about how they didn’t think it was a good idea and it felt like Carah was literally pressing her lips together in professionalism and carrying the whole thing. Carah you rock. Push everyone outside of the comfort zone and make them squirm! You are grace under fire 🔥. Glad you got home safe last night ! Peace
Jonathan's question at the end, which came in the form, "How is (your position) any different from (undesired position)?" is a rhetorical device called shifting the burden of proof. John Larson had not asserted that his position was distinct from what Jonathan proposed. If Jonathan's position was that John's position was identical to an undesirable position, then he held the burden of proof, and it was his responsibility to support his position with a sound argument. Instead, he asked John to support a position John had not proposed and offered no defense for his own stance. This is dishonest rhetoric 101. The next time you hear someone ask, "How is X any different than Y?" when you haven't taken any related stance, tell them the burden of proof is on them to support their own claims.
It's funny that John can hold such a strong position against Santa, yet feel that weeping while reading the Bible is justified. It seems that if he were to fully synthesize those positions, he'd arrive at the viewpoint many of us that proudly call ourselves Atheists and those that bend over backwards to keep the magic of Christmas alive are at. When we take a step back, it's alot easier to see the big picture, rather than cast stones at your highly rational fellow man 😂 Loved this and all JL episodes.... Such a treat... Thank you!
@John Larsen "All this has a similar drift, for Simonides was not so ignorant as to say that he praised those who did no evil voluntarily, as though there were some who did evil voluntarily. For no wise man, as I believe, will allow that any human being errs voluntarily, or voluntarily does evil and dishonourable actions; but they are very well aware that all who do evil and dishonourable things do them against their will. And Simonides never says that he praises him who does no evil voluntarily; the word 'voluntarily' applies to himself. For he was under the impression that a good man might often compel himself to love and praise another, and to be the friend and approver of another; and that there might be an involuntary love, such as a man might feel to an unnatural father or mother, or country, or the like. Now bad men, when their parents or country have any defects, look on them with malignant joy, and find fault with them and expose and denounce them to others, under the idea that the rest of mankind will be less likely to take themselves to task and accuse them of neglect; and they blame their defects far more than they deserve, in order that the odium which is necessarily incurred by them may be increased: but the good man dissembles his feelings, and constrains himself to praise them; and if they have wronged him and he is angry, he pacifies his anger and is reconciled, and compels himself to love and praise his own flesh and blood."- Socrates
@John Larsen I dunno, can you love the sin [Santa Claus] but not the sinner[Santa Claus Fan Club]? Can you really say you LOVE Santa, yet condemn the reason he continues to exist?? 😂 If the Santa myth (or cult, as you called it) is a lie, then what is America, or Money? I mean, they are just as mythological and just as real as Santa, but without the harm... My point up on the chimney was just that, you can't expect us elves to accept that the mythological bible has a justified ability to make a grown man weep in his milk and cookies, and that's "good, acceptable, or commenable" But on the same mistletoe be able to condemn those naughty list worthy Santa propagandist liars, without catching a sliegh full of flack. "The Santa Lie" is evidence that not all lies are created equal and that some can create actual, real life magic. Also: If our kids aren't smart enough to figure it out eventually, then they shouldn't be allowed to leave your house in the first place. Come to think of it, maybe it should be re-framed from a "lie", as the Santa "Now you're ready to be an adult" Clause 😂🎅 Anyway, Happy Holidays to you and yours and keep the fodder filled content coming!
@John Larsen Hey John, I know you are a busy guy and, engaging with comments might be the only thing worse than sitting through an endowment session, so I appreciate it! So I'll just leave you with the thought that I started with up top which is that all "lies" aren't created equal. The Santa lie, vs. the lie of the bible was my first example, but as you go through life I believe it's possible to see that the difference between a harmful lie, a useful lie, and a fun lie. I also think it's simply a matter of narrative to say that it requires that you necessarily de-contruct your parents once you find out the truth, and some will argue, that the process is a good thing and some will say that's a bad thing. Saying that your kids had the ability to engage with the holiday at the same level isn't really measurable, but I have to believe that if you told a 5 year old that Santa isn't real, it'd affect their ability to engage with the holiday and it would definitely affect the way they interact with their peers....many would say to their detriment. As far as keeping "children naïve and shielded from reality" that is a really great conversation to be had and one of my biggest critiques about the Mormon religion and Western culture in general. What I do know is that as a parent, I want my children to be innocent, to an extent, and as I think about it, that is at the heart of this discussion. Where is the point on the spectrum that people should know the truth, unvarnished? Some say "From birth" ignoring the obvious folly. Others say "Never"; again, ignoring the obvious consequences. It really seems like and especially after having this conversation that what we need to do is figure out when we can all agree that the age of innocence should begin to fade? Once we figure that out, you can still weep at the bible and I can still enjoy the magic of Santa, and we can both be o.k. with it! :D Thank you again for the conversation and ability to articulate my position and I wish you the best his holiday season!
Wow!! One of my favorite episodes ever! Makes me frustrated I spent money getting indoctrinated instead of actually being taught like this. I see the same thing in Jesus that he tells us over and over to take care of each other and the poor...Mosiah 4 has been my favorite chapter for years.. I feel like I'm confused on what to believe about anything anymore, but I do know taking care of the poor and not making women awful people really resonates with me... I wish my religion classes had taught any of this. Would love to hear more from John Larson!!! I do believe in Christ (which I recognize seems stupid) but I agree with everything else John says
John Larsen's ideal of Jesus being perfectly universally empathetic is actually how I came to view Jesus. Also, my understanding of the fig tree incident is that he did it to show his followers how faith can make things happen, as Jesus himself says later in the chapter. Both of those concepts were taught to me in church lessons.
Wow! Great conversation. I’ve never been a Mormon, but I was involved with fundamentalism and also was in a cult. The material was very relatable. Kudos.
John Larsen, not all Bible scholars at BYU are clueless. Many of my colleagues are extremely knowledgeable about the languages, history, archaeology, and socio-political issues of the Bible. The fig episode was probably non historical. How do we know? Because they were enroute to Bethphage, a place which means "house of unripe figs." A fig tree in Ancient Isrealite literature was symbolic of the nation of Israel (look up references in OT prophets). This story was a lesson about the judgment upon Israel and it's Jerusalem temple leadership. So, the simplistic reading of, "Jesus was mean to the tree and, therefore, he was a jerk," isn't sound. I think you should give those of us at BYU who were classically trained in the world of the Bible some credit. The narrative that we are a bunch of sappy, untrained seminary teachers isn't fair.
@John Larsen I would love to dialog more about this sometime. When I teach, I approach the Bible from a very academic perspective in terms of who wrote these texts, when were they written, and how we can understand them better by knowing the socio-political contexts. I was trained to interpret Biblical stories and narratives by Jews, and I use that knowledge and those approaches with my students. Some of us are perfectly okay with claiming that a certain story didn't happen, but is an etiology. However, sometimes the more zealous faculty try to browbeat us into Evangelical-type conclusions. Our papers stop getting accepted, our Education Week proposals get highly criticized by Correlation (and many of our proposals are rejected). So, we need to pick our battles and avoid topics in the classroom that are just too jarring and scandalous for our students. Not to censor or bury difficult facts, but to keep a certain level of Orthodoxy that the Board of Trustees expects. It's a difficult tightrope sometimes. I think my most recent book on Jesus does a good job of sticking with the methods of Biblical studies and the evidence. The result is that my students have loved it and the more secular readers have also enjoyed it. I'm curious how you, an atheist, would react to it. It's pretty hard hitting. It's A Stranger in Jerusalem: Seeing Jesus as a Jew (not an LDS press).
I love learning about this. I like learning about the history of Jesus in a different way, and thinking that he was probably a real person, whether he was divine or not. I have been listening to this episode on Podcasts. I still have about 45 minutes left. I have 2 questions for John Larsen so far at the point I am in. 1. When you're commenting about how Jesus was rude with the fig tree, why do you think Mark would include that in his writings about Jesus if there was nothing to be learned from it? What do you think Mark's reasoning was for recording that moment? Why do you think it was important to him? 2. You talk a lot about how Christians will take some of the things Jesus taught as an allegory, and some as real stories based on what fits their narrative. I'm sure Mormon apologists would argue for the Book of Mormon and how it helps us make sense of Jesus' teachings in the Bible when things like that occur. What would your response be to that?
What I like about John Karsen is that he challenges everyone. Even though out of LDS organisation for a long time. As a child in the 1960s, I always equated the concept of Jesus with the student demonstratiors in 1960s. I now believe that there is a good side and an evil side in all of us. There are a number of lectures on the you tube channel for Gresham college ( a organisation that provides free lecturesin London) by professor Alec Ryie from Durham University. They deal with Christianity, including race and religion. There are about 23 I have to listen to these yet. Also, John - wishing you well with the move to Oregon.
59:29 The Council of Nicaea didn't discuss the canon of the bible, the council was called by Constantine mostly to discuss the heresy of Arias of Alexandria (Arianism). Arianism was essentially making in roads and there were many bishops that wanted it declared "heretical" . In regards to the New Testament canon, the NT by that point was never really officially mentioned until Athanasius's letter "39th Festal Epistle of A.D. 367 and the Council of Laodicea.
Brother is right on. I am a Christian by the way or Bible Thumper or whatever. Then I left my little area where I grew up. My parents did NOT bring me to church as a kid. When I asked why, they said they wanted me to choose. I chose everything and studied lots of churches or went in their doors and saw just normal people who dressed up on Sunday, then went to fancy restaurants and ordered waitresses around and treated them bad. That was my first sign. I saw movies with the crosses burning in people's yards. I had nightmares about that or one burning in my own yard. But the real thing was later, when I became a social worker and took story after story of church leaders taking in kids or being in charge of kids and treating them very bad. Oh so very bad. So many kids that are adults now that will probably never ever ever ever ever step foot in a church because of the horrible things done to them. Sorry, I can't disclose but HORRIBLE. I had to write all the details, word for word, play by play to be read in court. I still go to church, but y'all, I have traveled to so many countries via the Army and this guy speaks TRUTH, we are horrible to other countries and I clearly see the Muslim ways, the Buddhist ways, other ways as well. I am Christian but giving others a pass, I used to feel that way - but no more. Nope. That's like telling me you are an athlete, then walking up all fat. I need to see what you've got on the field, or telling me you are a musician. Well, let's hear you play. You don't get a pass just because you own a guitar, get it out, let's hear how well you play. So when you meet someone who is a so called Christian (like me) watch how I live my life day to day. See if I got what it takes. Measure me. Put me thru stuff and see how I act during and after. Yeah, I am human and am not perfect. I curse sometimes, I say, God, are you kidding me, maybe too much, but give me a week and I am singing praise songs and trying to be good to everyone and serve because it is better than joining with those that don't or those that harm others. But that is just where I am right now. I pick churches now where people don't go treat waitresses bad - while wearing crosses and all dressed up. No Country Club churches for me.
Last year I read Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Reza Aslan and it completely blew my mind. I highly suggest it for anyone interested in a historical take on Jesus and the gospels.
Reza's book is not great. He's not classically trained in the world of the Bible, and he doesn't employ recognizable research methods. He overstates his case over and over again. People like Bart Ehrman don't like Zealot.
Thanks to the readability produced by the prose, tension and pacing, the odds of completing Zealot make it a much better bang for the buck, than the drivel produced by academia.
I loved that book. The point he makes about how Jesus pronounced people cleaned and didn’t charge them money. How he upset the money making business of the temple. It made me think of the Mormons how they also sell access to saving ordinances .
I think it might help to note that I think John L, is referring to the book of Mark being the oldest as the oldest book, not the oldest documents of the New Testament. The 7 authentic epistles of Paul are older than Mark, but they are letters; just a side note that could confuse someone.
@John Larsen love your work John, and I only know that bit from other scholars like yourself. Thanks for this episode. It's very nice to have contextual Christian history in relation the documents that made the Bible. I was shocked to know how long contextual criticism of the Bible had been around having grown up Mormon and how oblivious the Mormon tradition as a doesn't ever really let the members know about the hundreds of year of research that has gone into knowing how we got the Bible.
John Larsen, I would highly recommend the book or audiobook “the immortality key” There’s good evidence early sacraments were spiked with hallucinogens like mushrooms. Jesus may have been the most famous adopter of Dionysus. Even the marriage of Cana was taken from Dionysus. That book also catalogs the benefits of psilocybin, how those on death beds no longer fear death, and it being among the top 5 most important experiences of one’s life, who, have never taken it prior
"No one is good but God alone." What a destructive statement. How characteristic of a cult that believes that wiping out humanity with a flood could be a good thing.
I LOVE JOHN LARSON! I love his genuine authenticity! God doesn't care if we say 'bad words.' He doesn't care if we call him names. He cares if we treat each other with love. If he exists, he can't possibly care about those things. It's a random set of letters , people mean the same thing with different words they substitute and Jesus would call that hypocrisy. Why would he care about our language. Why would he care if we call him how we see him? He loves the truth! He wants us to be REAL with him. John tells it like it is, and I came to the same conclusion as John.
Love it! The Jesus of the Bible was a rebel, he would have rejected the Mormon church and most Christian faiths. He is very similar to Buddha. I don’t know if I need belief in the man to be saved. Edit: yes I agree with John Larsen and Cara on Jesus.
Hi, I agree with John on much of what he is saying! He is correct about the message that Christian religions today are not living up to these words of Jesus. They are too involved in collecting money and too uninvolved in spending money to end suffering. They are to proud, pounding their chests saying they are the only true religion and are rich, and too calused to demonstrate compassion or empathy even on their members when its wealth is self-sustainable! Christian religions want a free pass for what they are encouraged to do in the writings on Jesus, but are not doing now! That's not how it works! One doesn't receive an "A" in a class without doing the work, unless corruption is present! And assuming God exists, one is lying to God in this matter, thus if one is unwilling to do as Jesus taught, one is hard pressed to claim the mantel of Christian! Christians can claim nobody is perfect and humans are sinful, to which i'd like to ask how long are they going to nurse that drink! As Yoda said, "do or do not... there is no try!". One is either a follower of Jesus or one is not! There is no free pass!
John is more a follower of Jesus than many Christians! He's informing people on what they are doing wrong and what they need to do to do it right! Not using his own words, but the writings on Jesus! It's tough to accept when Moses can commit Genocide against the Midianites as per Gods command in the Bible while Christians are expected to love their enemy with Jesus! As Both are acceptable by God, which do Christians choose? John is also correct about the mistreatment of indigenous people by the Jewish government in Israel!
Another thing that is important to scriptural canon development - The Gospels were written *_AFTER_* the Epistles of Paul. Also the majority of non-Evangelical scholars agree that not ALL of the Epistles were written by Paul. There are 3 epistles which are contested by scholars : @nd Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. There are epistles that scholars agree were NOT written by Paul, 1st & 2nd Timothy & Titus. The Book of Hebrews is not an Epistle and is also NOT attributed to Paul by most scholars.
This comment is going to seem like it doesn't fit here but it's about freedom of religion. TLDR: religious freedom and LGBTQ+ identity are both bulwarks against tyranny. one of the things that stands as a barrier to tyranny is when there are multiple valid identities recognized for the people to inhabit. When people only have a few valid life paths then tyrants can more easily propagandize and control them, and the "subversives" are automatically driven underground by the society at large. Having multiple valid identities to try to influence increases the overhead of maintaining tyranny for tyrants. For many years freedom of religion in the US did this. It gave the people more than one valid way to be accepted as an American. Contrast this with the wars of religion in Europe before the treaty of Westphalia in 1648 where the monarchs agreed to stop killing the subjects in their borders that shared the religion of a neighboring king and not the religion of their own king (among other things). When progressive movements come along to advocate recognizing the civil rights of women, and immigrants, and internal racial minorities, and LGBTQ+ folks they are multiplying the number of life paths that the society recognizes as valid ... and by doing so they make that bulwark against tyranny that is called "diversity" even stronger than the founding fathers did in the first amendment. Tyrannical states don't oppress religions because of any ideological commitment. They do it for the practical purpose of lowering their overhead. And that's the same reason they oppress LGBTQ+ people and ethnic minorities. To stay free in the wake of religious collapse, societies will be well served to be accepting of these various identities and life paths. Bigotry makes a people vulnerable to tyranny.
Something IMPORTANT to remember when reading ANY of the gospels - these books were written _at least_ 50 years after Jesus's death by anonymous authors that were likely NOT alive when Jesus was alive (they had shorter life spans in the 1st Century). It is like you writing a book about a grandparent when they were in their 20's and they aren't there for you to interview. The "quotes" of what Jesus said - are *most likely* not direct quotes or even paraphrases. Every time Mr. Larsen says "Jesus said..." or "Jesus's words" he is actually quoting what common tradition accepts as the author of The Book of Mark's words were. I never met my grandfather - he died before I was born, I certainly can't write a book that (in good conscience I can claim) *directly and unerringly* quotes his words from his life based on oral tradition. I don't have direct knowledge of any conversations my grandpa had, only retellings of those conversations. Food for thought: Given the education level of the region where Jesus supposedly lived, it is extremely unlikely he had someone with a notepad running around behind him scribbling down his words verbatim. The words attributed to Jesus are the words of the author and then we have no way of knowing how much they changed over the decades and centuries before the first books of the Gospels were actually recorded. We do NOT have access to ANY original manuscripts. Only copies of copies. Google Earliest New Testament Manuscript P52 to learn about the largest piece of one of the oldest surviving writings - which came from the 2nd Century NOT the 1st. I say "supposedly lived" because Mark doesn't get the geography of Galilee correct and the travels of Jesus around the region just don't make sense, especially for someone travelling by foot. I urge you to do you're own research and be mindful of reading apologetics websites. I'm not saying don't read them, just remember that they have an agenda when it comes to "proving" scholars wrong. Kinda like the BYU archeological department has a vested interest in proving non LDS North American archeology wrong.
According to tradition, John the Revelator would have lived until around the time the last gospel (named and attributed to him, but likely not written by him) was being written, a couple of decades after Mark was likely formed. That would overlap with the apostolic fathers, such as clement of Rome. Some of the earliest Christian writings were written by people who knew and corresponded with apostles, which I think is just neat history.
Jesus was explicitly not a preacher of peace and stated that he came not to bring peace but a sword. He went on to belabor all of the familial bonds he came to sever and call for his cultists to be prepared to die for him. None of this is even related to peace.
James became king in 1603, and he commissioned the translation in reaction to the Geneva Bible, because the margin notes in the Geneva Bible were critical of monarchies.
I think Larson should have placed more emphasis on the fact that the KJV was primarily commissioned to validate the divine right of kings. Also said it was commissioned in the 1570's. These erroneous dates and mispronunciations are getting a bit tiresome, but where else can we get this kind of content?
It was just brought up that the Catholic Church changed female names that were disciples to male names. I am not able to find confirmation of this, can someone help me out? And I'm talking about an actual source material or research to confirm
I burned the whole set in 92. Leather bound standard work set I was suppose to use on my mission. I danced around it like a wild man. They could see the flames for miles. But fear not, they’ll print more. I am a son of Amasa!!!!
The oldest scrap of the NT dates from 125-150. It’s from John 18. The oldest scrap of mark is from around 200. There was a recent claim that a markan fragment was discovered dating from the first century is bogus.
Once you decide that the gospels aren’t true, all you have is the beautiful language of the KJV. It’s poetic. So is Shakespeare Let me at least have the poetry after I decide the meaning is valueless
Love this one, so thought provoking. . We actually learn a ton of this as JWs if you read the literature, which a mass of them don't, I found out. But lots of interesting perspectives here, and added information as well. the older I get the more I realize how silly the New Testament is (only mentioning that, simply because that's the topic.)
Literally no one is a sinner. It's not even possible to sin. A sin is not any act that some deems "wrong." A sin is specifically an affront to a deity like not keeping the Sabbath holy or blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. What's harmful is distinct from what's sinful, because the Bible prescribes the death penalty for disobedient children and allows for one human to own another as their slave, both of which are harmful. These things are not considered affronts to the Biblical god, however, and are therefore not sins. While it may be said that humans inevitably cause harm, even if that harm is breathing out carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, harm is not coequal to sin. Sin requires a deity to affront, and no deity evidently exists. Sin is possible only to the extent that it is possible for an American to commit regicide against the King of the United States.
As Prophet, Seer and Revelator in this last dispensation, I will accept John Larson into my fold but first he has to learn to play the FUCKING THEREMIN!!!
Just so you are aware, I checked out your recommendation for the NRSV translation of the Bible, and it FAILED THE TEST. Let me explain: Some time ago while reading through the KJV New Testament, I ran across the passage of Romans 1:18-32 which is commonly used as a Batter Text against the LGBT. Reading carefully so as to be open to its divine message, it became evident that this passage is _not even about homosexuality_! And that it constitutes a highly offensive degradation of women to assume it is. At someone’s recommendation of the NIV, I compared them and realized for the first time that there were (popular!) mistranslations out there that could not be interpreted any other way but as a bash to LGBT. It didn’t pass the test either, and I attributed this to it being a thought for thought translation which would seem to be more susceptible to the biases of modern interpreters. But the NRSV _is_ a word for word translation, just like the KJV… and the fact that it fails this test is highly concerning. The example passage you used to discredit the KJV translation in this podcast was hardly significant as translation discrepancies go, and becomes absolutely meaningless in comparison to the NRSV’s modern mistranslation that cannot be taken any other way but to fuel the fires of social injustice. I could not have discerned the true/divine meaning of the passage by using any of these bible versions that failed the test. And that makes them (very!) dangerous, since so many people trust in them. The wording of the KJV, though undoubtedly flawed in its own way, at least DID allow the true message to come through… one that is consistent with a God that is Love. Please don’t discredit the KJV anymore, and rethink your recommendation for the NRSV. If there is a better translation than the KJV to recommend, I would be glad to consider it. But it has to pass the test. Just thought you should know. Thank you for bringing so much good insight to your Mormon Stories podcasts!
Comadre in Spanish is a Godmother, or a very important female friend who holds a special place in your life; however, it can have a more pejorative meaning of a woman who gossips a lot and thus you can't trust her with secrets.
I'd encourage John Larsen to ponder a more generous view towards Paul. There is no shortage of scholars who think letters such as Timothy were written in his name just as John and John acknowledged Matthew didn't write Matthew and Mark didn't write Mark. I offer the following "poem" for what is worth. I, Paul I’d like to go on record. Whoever put my name on the letters to Timothy did so for their own purposes. I do not endorse their views. I did, after all, say that there shall no longer be male or female, and I was known in my life to work closely with a number of women whom I would consider every bit as much a part of apostolic succession as any man. And apostolic succession, in my mind, has everything to do with grace in discipleship and nothing to do with bishops legitimizing each other. I was pretty informal in most matters of the community. I did hold a few strong values, that is, to be loving, patient, kind-you know the list. Being among the orthodox earlier in my life had left me pretty scarred. I had bought into their rigidity, even to the point of approvingly killing anyone who might be a threat. That was before being struck by Love. While I might occasionally be coaxed into pondering right belief or mercy, after the scales fell from my eyes, mercy would, in all ways, prevail. Some of the other boys thought I was a bit too inclusive. But even they budged on some things regarding ritual practices. I don’t know why they thought they had to draw straws to replace Judas. Twelve was no magic number when the charge was to go make disciples. As far as their confined notion goes, they would have been better off appointing the Marys who had proven, beyond a doubt, their fidelity. I never knew these women personally. But I did know they walked the walk! My vocation was to the gentiles. My wise counsel on staying single (as I was) to free one for service, it seems to me, remains good advice. That it was used to enforce celibacy as a requirement and not a charism is most unfortunate. I wasn’t a prude. If you are passionate, be passionate. If you can forgo sexual passions for service, then wonderful-serve wholeheartedly. You won’t find me in the shadows trying to shame human sexuality, and neither should you. Such decisions were never meant to be imposed by group-think or the male hierarchy of the letter to Timothy. (What does a bishop know of another’s heart?) Whatever you think of me, I’d say this: I don’t much care these days who you sleep with. My one rant on temple orgies has been used to cast the condemning net far too widely. I was calling out the blatant evil that was passing for the status quo. It comes down to this: Are your fruits evil or of the Spirit? The evil fruit is covetousness, malice, consuming envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossiping, slandering, hating, insolence, haughtiness, boastfulness-shall I go on? While the Spirit bestows love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Against such things there is no law! What part of this do you not get? Stop using me to condemn others. Stop using me to keep women silent and subservient. Those are your hang-ups. Not mine. And to whoever wrote those instructions on church management to Timothy, I really wish you’d have taken credit. Once the scales fell, I was far more egalitarian than you represented in my name. The fruits of deceit and craftiness. Not good. From "August Kibler's Stories for Tyler" by TP Graf
I was going to have this on in the background while I did some work (working at home currently). So far 95 percent of my attention has been on John Larsen and about 5 percent on my work.
Find your people and dance. The best wisdom from JohnLarsen.
Yes! Great advice even for people not going through a faith change.
2:04:06 I felt the spirit! Or whatever you want to call those "tender" feelings; when John is talking about the woman in Jesus's life. So cool! Such a great explanation on the book of Mark!
I always anxiously wait for John Larsens segments. Always a passionate and insightful program. Thank you for your presentations.
I absolutely love John Larsen! He’s exactly right. I have for years taught my children that Christ isn’t a Christian as defined by the actions of the so called Christian churches
Christ isn't a Christian because he is dead
Jesus also never called his followers Christian and it's possible that Jesus never intend to start a church
I was a homeschooled Mormon, so my math, science, and history is very spotty. Appreciated the great insights and explainations!
God bless you
Truly a gift! So freakin FASCINATING!!! Thanks John Larsen & thanks to John Dehlin & Carah & team!!!
Learning about the Gospel of Mark being written long before the other gospels is very valuable to me. Thank you John Larsen,
Really fascinating episode, many choose to leave everything behind after a mormon faith crisis, and yet many have difficulty coming to terms with the inaccuracies and the possibility that Jesus wasn’t what they were taught about as we were truly taught to worship lds prophets in the mormon faith. Hence the negative comments as it challenges them to confront the possibility that religion in general has always been selling you something. I absolutely agree with what was put forth in this episode and love the evidence used and shared with us. I think its important to always question and challenge preconceived notions. Thank you Mormon Stories, John Dehlin, John Larson etc. for always encouraging us to do so as well. 🤗
I am finishing up the crisis in “Faith crisis”. Just a 📝. I was helped by listening to Dr. Jordan Peterson, reading all of “Rough Stone Rolling”, and just finishing up Book of Enoch. This has all been an intense work but so worth it
@@patricianoel7782 I’ll definitely have to check these out! Rough Stone Rolling has been on my list for awhile 🤗
Love everyone you come in contact with as much as possible,take people out of there problems for a while . Everything outside this is trivial or not as important
I love John Larsen’s intellect and straight forward no BS-ing way of speaking. Right on about Jesus being anti-establishment and how far Christians have strayed from Jesus’ teachings.
Whew. My brain and heart hurt. Thank you, John for forcing me to look at myself. Your tender spirit made me weep for the last hour of your message. I am seeking knowledge and understanding of purpose. 🙏 thank you so much
P.S. I am also a new follower of the sage, Jordan Peterson. Need I say more? 😊
If you're joking about Peterson, I apologize. Otherwise I would *strongly* encourage you to expand further out from Peterson if you want to get away from the traditional Patriarchal thought stopping techniques encouraged by his writings. There are some great responses to Peterson's most famous book on RUclips - Hannah and Jake for example did a chapter by chapter response to Peterson. But you do you, just be careful of not going from one high control group to another that can lead to such groups as QAnon.
I love Jordan Peterson. I wonder what growing up in his household was like.
"If the Mormon church was really a Christian church the Mormon Church would be broke!" No truer words have ever been spoken!!
Mr. Larsen nails it. The Church could use their wealth to do so much to help the world which was a main reason why I left. I told my Dad that I believed in a different Jesus then he did.
Wow... Thank you so much. I love hearing John Larsen. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and time.
The fig tree discussion… utter gold. I always understood it as Jesus is human (and implies he isn’t divine) and he got hangry af like we all do from time to time. 😂
Uh, guys, I think you might have messed up the video somehow. It's now starting several minutes in, the sound cuts off at about 2:03:00, and it's stuck on a still image of John at about 2:12:00. Fix?
EDIT: There we go. The timestamps are still pretty screwy, but the episode is at least here in its entirety. Thanks.
Back in ancient times--1970's--when I was in college, my old testament professor, who used the RSV (NRSV was not a thing then), pointed out the many ways words had changed and the KJV had not kept up with the times. He pointed out as well that the KJV was dumbed down from the start to be readable with most people's vocabulary of some 5,000 words as compared to Shakespeare's 20,000 words and tenses. The best advice he gave us as freshman was, "Please go to church, but don't check your mind at the door." Advice I have always followed much to the consternation of several clergy and bishops. 🙂
These John Larsen episodes are so valuable. Is there a transcript of this anywhere?
So so good. Thanks John Larsen. These presentations ad charity, and make me want to be a better human.
I'm on 12 hour shifts at work listening to MS episodes. Have had a bunch of teary moments. These are life changing. Thank you.
Many years ago after my wife and I left the morg, we put our temple clothes up on eBay. We had lots of photos and a very high buy it now price. The idea was that some church member would panic about the photos and do the buy it now to get it off. Worked within a few minutes.
I am so happy to be on a John Larsen binge.
Great interview. Great guest. Great audio great lighting. Congrats on the totally professional production.
I remember when I was in the process of leaving, a nevermo friend of mine said something like, “do you want to live your life picking flowers or do you want to live your life to the fullest?” His quote was better but it was one of those things like John said.
When I left Mormonism I found Jesus. Have always had a belief in God. I purchased a ESV Bible. Starting reading it with the eyes of a child. It is now where I find my truth.
I spent a significant amount of time on my mission trying to understand the "deeper meaning" of the fig tree story. It doesn't make any damn sense, it's so good to hear you say that!
Loved this episode! Thanks again John Larsen!
John Larsen hits it out of the park again!
He's so funny lol
@@brisingr4726 ...yet very firm and clear on his position. He does not mince his words and gives no slack to TSCC (and as we saw/heard today to Christianity as a whole).
Love John Larsen and his knowledge and perspective. These episodes are great!
Learned a lot from Timothy Frekes books at the beginning of my exodus (9yrs ago). Former seminary teacher- the NT Bible broke me; lost my believe in all manmade religion, the Mormon God and Jesus. Thanks John Larsen❤️
So much of what I learned today about the Bible is so different from what I was taught my whole life. How do I learn more?
Bart Ehrman
You can learn most of this by reading some wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, not everything John says here is quite accurate, for example, the council of nicea had nothing to do with forming biblical canon
Mark is my favorite of the gospels. It's the most raw and most unpolished. Mark's Jesus shows human emotions like fear, sadness, and anger.
I love how John L can take an academic topic and make it interesting for a general audience. Question for John L: do we know for sure that Christians were heavily persecuted under Nero? If so, is there a good reference for that?
John D, you should interview Richard Carrier and/or Robert Price. Their perspectives on Jesus are fascinating. I don't agree with all of their conclusions, but if you want a quick, interesting read, try Jesus from Outer Space by Richard Carrier. He and other "mythicist" scholars make a very compelling case that the entire book of Mark was written as an allegory. Paul, who lived decades before Mark was written (and whose epistles were written in the 50's), doesn't seem to know any of the biographical/historical details of Jesus' life that Mark knows about.
Also, here's one common interpretation of Mark's fig tree story:
Jesus curses the fig tree (even though it's not "in season"), then goes and drives out the moneychangers from the temple, and then comes back to find that the fig tree has withered. This was supposed to be symbolic of the Jewish temple being destroyed (it was no longer the "season" for temple sacrifice), therefore, Christians from that time forward could accept Jesus' sacrifice rather than having to perform animal sacrifice rituals at the temple. This is one of the ways scholars deduce that Mark was probably written after 70 CE, because at this time, Jews and Jewish-Christians were having to come up with excuses for the temple being destroyed by the Romans. 'See? Jesus predicted this was going to happen 40 years ago! His sacrifice made it so we don't need a temple anymore!'
Fascinating!!!! You should be hosting Mormon Stories Podcast….not me!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 Right. sarcasm
I loved the raw setup of this! Feels very warm, comfortable and familiar.
Yay! I so enjoy he John Larson episodes!
Thanks John Larsen! You are a breath of fresh air! So, separate from religious stuff, For people that are isolated Hopeless and crushed by loneliness what can they do to help themselves?
Audio cuts out at 2:02:48 - will finish listening on Spotify but wanted to leave the heads up.
I am a convert to the Mormon church and what bothered me was
that they made me feel that the Bible wasn't important! They did not focus on the Bible even when we were studying the old and the New testament the prophet was in the background saying read your book of Mormon every day read your book of Mormon, why not say read the Old testament while we're studying it read the New testament while we're studying it, no it was read the book of Mormon so much,
Like the prophet didn't want us focus on the Bible!!!
Enjoyed watching this episode with John Larsen. Great input
Love the pre-show banter!
I love this! Thank you!
It would be interesting to hear a conversation on Mormon Stories between Larsen and RFM on the religion of American exceptionalism.
Yes!!!
I'm sure that there are millions of Christians who are the kind of Christian my mother was. She grew up as a Southern Baptist in the south, moved to California when she was 24 and never again went to a Baptist church, or any other church except for weddings and funerals. She never talked with me about Jesus or God, but when she was dying in the hospital, a chaplain came into her room and asked if she wanted him to pray with her. He then asked her what church she belonged to and she answered "Baptist". I was watching this and had a strange feeling of how could a person still identify as a Baptist after living 45 years without ever having contact with that church or talking to her son, who she loved more than anything, about Jesus and God? My conclusion is that she really didn't know much about religion, never read the Bible, never saw the need for a church family, and lived a good moral and ethical life. She didn't think well of "religious" people who go around carrying a Bible and trying to "save" the lost souls as they see them. So I think there are countless "Christians" out there like my mother. Christianity is weaker than the stats indicate.
Haven't listened yet, just dropped by to say a John Larsen episode is better than Christmas
Truth is always 1000% better than a lie.
Lol just wanna say the preshow was thoroughly entertaining. I love Carahs confidence. I listened to her Mormons on mushroom interview earlier and was fascinated to learn how her descent into nihilism released her from desire so she could just do exmo content with no effs to give (the story about the book art of not giving a f is hilarious) !
Anyway- funny to watch this episode today after that background. I’m only 10 mins in and it’s so obvious that Carah pushed for the preshow, which made all the older white dudes uncomfortable lol. They kept making backhanded comments about how they didn’t think it was a good idea and it felt like Carah was literally pressing her lips together in professionalism and carrying the whole thing. Carah you rock. Push everyone outside of the comfort zone and make them squirm! You are grace under fire 🔥. Glad you got home safe last night ! Peace
We do know all that, don’t over do it . She’s already a STAR .
@torrenceire what is this in reference to? Where can I watch this?
I loved this-thank you!!
Wow!! Thank you
Jonathan's question at the end, which came in the form, "How is (your position) any different from (undesired position)?" is a rhetorical device called shifting the burden of proof. John Larson had not asserted that his position was distinct from what Jonathan proposed. If Jonathan's position was that John's position was identical to an undesirable position, then he held the burden of proof, and it was his responsibility to support his position with a sound argument. Instead, he asked John to support a position John had not proposed and offered no defense for his own stance. This is dishonest rhetoric 101. The next time you hear someone ask, "How is X any different than Y?" when you haven't taken any related stance, tell them the burden of proof is on them to support their own claims.
It's funny that John can hold such a strong position against Santa, yet feel that weeping while reading the Bible is justified.
It seems that if he were to fully synthesize those positions, he'd arrive at the viewpoint many of us that proudly call ourselves Atheists and those that bend over backwards to keep the magic of Christmas alive are at.
When we take a step back, it's alot easier to see the big picture, rather than cast stones at your highly rational fellow man 😂
Loved this and all JL episodes.... Such a treat... Thank you!
@John Larsen "All this has a similar drift, for Simonides was not so ignorant as to say that he praised those who did no evil voluntarily, as though there were some who did evil voluntarily. For no wise man, as I believe, will allow that any human being errs voluntarily, or voluntarily does evil and dishonourable actions; but they are very well aware that all who do evil and dishonourable things do them against their will. And Simonides never says that he praises him who does no evil voluntarily; the word 'voluntarily' applies to himself. For he was under the impression that a good man might often compel himself to love and praise another, and to be the friend and approver of another; and that there might be an involuntary love, such as a man might feel to an unnatural father or mother, or country, or the like. Now bad men, when their parents or country have any defects, look on them with malignant joy, and find fault with them and expose and denounce them to others, under the idea that the rest of mankind will be less likely to take themselves to task and accuse them of neglect; and they blame their defects far more than they deserve, in order that the odium which is necessarily incurred by them may be increased: but the good man dissembles his feelings, and constrains himself to praise them; and if they have wronged him and he is angry, he pacifies his anger and is reconciled, and compels himself to love and praise his own flesh and blood."- Socrates
@John Larsen I dunno, can you love the sin [Santa Claus] but not the sinner[Santa Claus Fan Club]? Can you really say you LOVE Santa, yet condemn the reason he continues to exist?? 😂
If the Santa myth (or cult, as you called it) is a lie, then what is America, or Money? I mean, they are just as mythological and just as real as Santa, but without the harm...
My point up on the chimney was just that, you can't expect us elves to accept that the mythological bible has a justified ability to make a grown man weep in his milk and cookies, and that's "good, acceptable, or commenable"
But on the same mistletoe be able to condemn those naughty list worthy Santa propagandist liars, without catching a sliegh full of flack.
"The Santa Lie" is evidence that not all lies are created equal and that some can create actual, real life magic.
Also: If our kids aren't smart enough to figure it out eventually, then they shouldn't be allowed to leave your house in the first place. Come to think of it, maybe it should be re-framed from a "lie", as the Santa "Now you're ready to be an adult" Clause 😂🎅
Anyway, Happy Holidays to you and yours and keep the fodder filled content coming!
@John Larsen Hey John, I know you are a busy guy and, engaging with comments might be the only thing worse than sitting through an endowment session, so I appreciate it!
So I'll just leave you with the thought that I started with up top which is that all "lies" aren't created equal. The Santa lie, vs. the lie of the bible was my first example, but as you go through life I believe it's possible to see that the difference between a harmful lie, a useful lie, and a fun lie.
I also think it's simply a matter of narrative to say that it requires that you necessarily de-contruct your parents once you find out the truth, and some will argue, that the process is a good thing and some will say that's a bad thing. Saying that your kids had the ability to engage with the holiday at the same level isn't really measurable, but I have to believe that if you told a 5 year old that Santa isn't real, it'd affect their ability to engage with the holiday and it would definitely affect the way they interact with their peers....many would say to their detriment.
As far as keeping "children naïve and shielded from reality" that is a really great conversation to be had and one of my biggest critiques about the Mormon religion and Western culture in general. What I do know is that as a parent, I want my children to be innocent, to an extent, and as I think about it, that is at the heart of this discussion. Where is the point on the spectrum that people should know the truth, unvarnished? Some say "From birth" ignoring the obvious folly. Others say "Never"; again, ignoring the obvious consequences. It really seems like and especially after having this conversation that what we need to do is figure out when we can all agree that the age of innocence should begin to fade? Once we figure that out, you can still weep at the bible and I can still enjoy the magic of Santa, and we can both be o.k. with it! :D
Thank you again for the conversation and ability to articulate my position and I wish you the best his holiday season!
Wow!! One of my favorite episodes ever! Makes me frustrated I spent money getting indoctrinated instead of actually being taught like this. I see the same thing in Jesus that he tells us over and over to take care of each other and the poor...Mosiah 4 has been my favorite chapter for years..
I feel like I'm confused on what to believe about anything anymore, but I do know taking care of the poor and not making women awful people really resonates with me... I wish my religion classes had taught any of this. Would love to hear more from John Larson!!! I do believe in Christ (which I recognize seems stupid) but I agree with everything else John says
Did the sound cut out at around 2 hours and 3 minutes for anyone else?
Indeed, can this be remedied?
@@palousetrance2823 they'd probably have to re-upload 😕
John Larsen's ideal of Jesus being perfectly universally empathetic is actually how I came to view Jesus.
Also, my understanding of the fig tree incident is that he did it to show his followers how faith can make things happen, as Jesus himself says later in the chapter.
Both of those concepts were taught to me in church lessons.
Wow! Great conversation. I’ve never been a Mormon, but I was involved with fundamentalism and also was in a cult. The material was very relatable. Kudos.
John Larsen, not all Bible scholars at BYU are clueless. Many of my colleagues are extremely knowledgeable about the languages, history, archaeology, and socio-political issues of the Bible.
The fig episode was probably non historical. How do we know? Because they were enroute to Bethphage, a place which means "house of unripe figs." A fig tree in Ancient Isrealite literature was symbolic of the nation of Israel (look up references in OT prophets). This story was a lesson about the judgment upon Israel and it's Jerusalem temple leadership.
So, the simplistic reading of, "Jesus was mean to the tree and, therefore, he was a jerk," isn't sound.
I think you should give those of us at BYU who were classically trained in the world of the Bible some credit. The narrative that we are a bunch of sappy, untrained seminary teachers isn't fair.
@John Larsen I would love to dialog more about this sometime.
When I teach, I approach the Bible from a very academic perspective in terms of who wrote these texts, when were they written, and how we can understand them better by knowing the socio-political contexts. I was trained to interpret Biblical stories and narratives by Jews, and I use that knowledge and those approaches with my students.
Some of us are perfectly okay with claiming that a certain story didn't happen, but is an etiology. However, sometimes the more zealous faculty try to browbeat us into Evangelical-type conclusions.
Our papers stop getting accepted, our Education Week proposals get highly criticized by Correlation (and many of our proposals are rejected). So, we need to pick our battles and avoid topics in the classroom that are just too jarring and scandalous for our students. Not to censor or bury difficult facts, but to keep a certain level of Orthodoxy that the Board of Trustees expects. It's a difficult tightrope sometimes.
I think my most recent book on Jesus does a good job of sticking with the methods of Biblical studies and the evidence. The result is that my students have loved it and the more secular readers have also enjoyed it.
I'm curious how you, an atheist, would react to it. It's pretty hard hitting.
It's A Stranger in Jerusalem: Seeing Jesus as a Jew (not an LDS press).
Are you related to Elvin Hatch, a retired anthropology professor at U.C. Santa Barbara? He's from an LDS background.
Carrah (Carl) you are absolutely priceless! Your humor makes difficult topics easier to swallow
binging all the Larson episodes--this man is 🏆
I knew I liked you but when you shared your love for linguistics, you got me bruh!
I love learning about this. I like learning about the history of Jesus in a different way, and thinking that he was probably a real person, whether he was divine or not. I have been listening to this episode on Podcasts. I still have about 45 minutes left. I have 2 questions for John Larsen so far at the point I am in.
1. When you're commenting about how Jesus was rude with the fig tree, why do you think Mark would include that in his writings about Jesus if there was nothing to be learned from it? What do you think Mark's reasoning was for recording that moment? Why do you think it was important to him?
2. You talk a lot about how Christians will take some of the things Jesus taught as an allegory, and some as real stories based on what fits their narrative. I'm sure Mormon apologists would argue for the Book of Mormon and how it helps us make sense of Jesus' teachings in the Bible when things like that occur. What would your response be to that?
What I like about John Karsen is that he challenges everyone. Even though out of LDS organisation for a long time. As a child in the 1960s, I always equated the concept of Jesus with the student demonstratiors in 1960s. I now believe that there is a good side and an evil side in all of us. There are a number of lectures on the you tube channel for Gresham college ( a organisation that provides free lecturesin London) by professor Alec Ryie from Durham University. They deal with Christianity, including race and religion. There are about 23 I have to listen to these yet. Also, John - wishing you well with the move to Oregon.
59:29 The Council of Nicaea didn't discuss the canon of the bible, the council was called by Constantine mostly to discuss the heresy of Arias of Alexandria (Arianism). Arianism was essentially making in roads and there were many bishops that wanted it declared "heretical" . In regards to the New Testament canon, the NT by that point was never really officially mentioned until Athanasius's letter "39th Festal Epistle of A.D. 367 and the Council of Laodicea.
Brother is right on. I am a Christian by the way or Bible Thumper or whatever. Then I left my little area where I grew up. My parents did NOT bring me to church as a kid. When I asked why, they said they wanted me to choose. I chose everything and studied lots of churches or went in their doors and saw just normal people who dressed up on Sunday, then went to fancy restaurants and ordered waitresses around and treated them bad. That was my first sign. I saw movies with the crosses burning in people's yards. I had nightmares about that or one burning in my own yard. But the real thing was later, when I became a social worker and took story after story of church leaders taking in kids or being in charge of kids and treating them very bad. Oh so very bad. So many kids that are adults now that will probably never ever ever ever ever step foot in a church because of the horrible things done to them. Sorry, I can't disclose but HORRIBLE. I had to write all the details, word for word, play by play to be read in court. I still go to church, but y'all, I have traveled to so many countries via the Army and this guy speaks TRUTH, we are horrible to other countries and I clearly see the Muslim ways, the Buddhist ways, other ways as well. I am Christian but giving others a pass, I used to feel that way - but no more. Nope. That's like telling me you are an athlete, then walking up all fat. I need to see what you've got on the field, or telling me you are a musician. Well, let's hear you play. You don't get a pass just because you own a guitar, get it out, let's hear how well you play. So when you meet someone who is a so called Christian (like me) watch how I live my life day to day. See if I got what it takes. Measure me. Put me thru stuff and see how I act during and after. Yeah, I am human and am not perfect. I curse sometimes, I say, God, are you kidding me, maybe too much, but give me a week and I am singing praise songs and trying to be good to everyone and serve because it is better than joining with those that don't or those that harm others. But that is just where I am right now. I pick churches now where people don't go treat waitresses bad - while wearing crosses and all dressed up. No Country Club churches for me.
I love this guy Larsson
Last year I read Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Reza Aslan and it completely blew my mind. I highly suggest it for anyone interested in a historical take on Jesus and the gospels.
Reza's book is not great. He's not classically trained in the world of the Bible, and he doesn't employ recognizable research methods. He overstates his case over and over again. People like Bart Ehrman don't like Zealot.
@@trevanhatch8717 thanks for the response - that’s good to know!
Thanks to the readability produced by the prose, tension and pacing, the odds of completing Zealot make it a much better bang for the buck, than the drivel produced by academia.
@@jamesrussell3975 interesting comment. I wouldn't say that my work, or Bart Ehrman, or a number of other scholars write in overly complicated prose.
I loved that book. The point he makes about how Jesus pronounced people cleaned and didn’t charge them money. How he upset the money making business of the temple. It made me think of the Mormons how they also sell access to saving ordinances .
💛 OMGee I loved this. I need more.
Tough straight talk. Telling like it is is refreshing.
I think it might help to note that I think John L, is referring to the book of Mark being the oldest as the oldest book, not the oldest documents of the New Testament. The 7 authentic epistles of Paul are older than Mark, but they are letters; just a side note that could confuse someone.
@John Larsen love your work John, and I only know that bit from other scholars like yourself. Thanks for this episode. It's very nice to have contextual Christian history in relation the documents that made the Bible. I was shocked to know how long contextual criticism of the Bible had been around having grown up Mormon and how oblivious the Mormon tradition as a doesn't ever really let the members know about the hundreds of year of research that has gone into knowing how we got the Bible.
Could someone provide a link to the oldest book of Mark as referenced by John Larsen?
2:36:15 Let them all say AMEN!
John Larsen, I would highly recommend the book or audiobook “the immortality key” There’s good evidence early sacraments were spiked with hallucinogens like mushrooms. Jesus may have been the most famous adopter of Dionysus. Even the marriage of Cana was taken from Dionysus.
That book also catalogs the benefits of psilocybin, how those on death beds no longer fear death, and it being among the top 5 most important experiences of one’s life, who, have never taken it prior
"No one is good but God alone." What a destructive statement. How characteristic of a cult that believes that wiping out humanity with a flood could be a good thing.
I LOVE JOHN LARSON! I love his genuine authenticity! God doesn't care if we say 'bad words.' He doesn't care if we call him names. He cares if we treat each other with love.
If he exists, he can't possibly care about those things. It's a random set of letters , people mean the same thing with different words they substitute and Jesus would call that hypocrisy. Why would he care about our language. Why would he care if we call him how we see him? He loves the truth! He wants us to be REAL with him.
John tells it like it is, and I came to the same conclusion as John.
Love it! The Jesus of the Bible was a rebel, he would have rejected the Mormon church and most Christian faiths. He is very similar to Buddha. I don’t know if I need belief in the man to be saved. Edit: yes I agree with John Larsen and Cara on Jesus.
Hi,
I agree with John on much of what he is saying! He is correct about the message that Christian religions today are not living up to these words of Jesus. They are too involved in collecting money and too uninvolved in spending money to end suffering. They are to proud, pounding their chests saying they are the only true religion and are rich, and too calused to demonstrate compassion or empathy even on their members when its wealth is self-sustainable! Christian religions want a free pass for what they are encouraged to do in the writings on Jesus, but are not doing now! That's not how it works! One doesn't receive an "A" in a class without doing the work, unless corruption is present! And assuming God exists, one is lying to God in this matter, thus if one is unwilling to do as Jesus taught, one is hard pressed to claim the mantel of Christian! Christians can claim nobody is perfect and humans are sinful, to which i'd like to ask how long are they going to nurse that drink! As Yoda said, "do or do not... there is no try!". One is either a follower of Jesus or one is not! There is no free pass!
John is more a follower of Jesus than many Christians! He's informing people on what they are doing wrong and what they need to do to do it right! Not using his own words, but the writings on Jesus! It's tough to accept when Moses can commit Genocide against the Midianites as per Gods command in the Bible while Christians are expected to love their enemy with Jesus! As Both are acceptable by God, which do Christians choose? John is also correct about the mistreatment of indigenous people by the Jewish government in Israel!
John, there is no need to apologize to Christians for criticizing Jesus. Christians don't apologize for Jesus criticizing us.
Where is the thrive event in Houston? I see online where you can get tickets, but I don’t see much other information.
Worth reading;
Misquoting Jesus, the Story behind Who changed the Bible and Why. By Bart D. Ehrman
The movie Zeitgeist is also excellent!
Another thing that is important to scriptural canon development - The Gospels were written *_AFTER_* the Epistles of Paul. Also the majority of non-Evangelical scholars agree that not ALL of the Epistles were written by Paul. There are 3 epistles which are contested by scholars : @nd Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. There are epistles that scholars agree were NOT written by Paul, 1st & 2nd Timothy & Titus. The Book of Hebrews is not an Epistle and is also NOT attributed to Paul by most scholars.
Jews are also indigenous to the Holy Land. Doesn’t excuse any violence, I’m just saying.
This pre-show is gold. You can tell John D. is skeptical, but I think it was a great call Carah 😁
This comment is going to seem like it doesn't fit here but it's about freedom of religion. TLDR: religious freedom and LGBTQ+ identity are both bulwarks against tyranny.
one of the things that stands as a barrier to tyranny is when there are multiple valid identities recognized for the people to inhabit. When people only have a few valid life paths then tyrants can more easily propagandize and control them, and the "subversives" are automatically driven underground by the society at large. Having multiple valid identities to try to influence increases the overhead of maintaining tyranny for tyrants.
For many years freedom of religion in the US did this. It gave the people more than one valid way to be accepted as an American. Contrast this with the wars of religion in Europe before the treaty of Westphalia in 1648 where the monarchs agreed to stop killing the subjects in their borders that shared the religion of a neighboring king and not the religion of their own king (among other things).
When progressive movements come along to advocate recognizing the civil rights of women, and immigrants, and internal racial minorities, and LGBTQ+ folks they are multiplying the number of life paths that the society recognizes as valid ... and by doing so they make that bulwark against tyranny that is called "diversity" even stronger than the founding fathers did in the first amendment.
Tyrannical states don't oppress religions because of any ideological commitment. They do it for the practical purpose of lowering their overhead. And that's the same reason they oppress LGBTQ+ people and ethnic minorities. To stay free in the wake of religious collapse, societies will be well served to be accepting of these various identities and life paths. Bigotry makes a people vulnerable to tyranny.
Something IMPORTANT to remember when reading ANY of the gospels - these books were written _at least_ 50 years after Jesus's death by anonymous authors that were likely NOT alive when Jesus was alive (they had shorter life spans in the 1st Century).
It is like you writing a book about a grandparent when they were in their 20's and they aren't there for you to interview. The "quotes" of what Jesus said - are *most likely* not direct quotes or even paraphrases. Every time Mr. Larsen says "Jesus said..." or "Jesus's words" he is actually quoting what common tradition accepts as the author of The Book of Mark's words were.
I never met my grandfather - he died before I was born, I certainly can't write a book that (in good conscience I can claim) *directly and unerringly* quotes his words from his life based on oral tradition. I don't have direct knowledge of any conversations my grandpa had, only retellings of those conversations.
Food for thought: Given the education level of the region where Jesus supposedly lived, it is extremely unlikely he had someone with a notepad running around behind him scribbling down his words verbatim. The words attributed to Jesus are the words of the author and then we have no way of knowing how much they changed over the decades and centuries before the first books of the Gospels were actually recorded. We do NOT have access to ANY original manuscripts. Only copies of copies. Google Earliest New Testament Manuscript P52 to learn about the largest piece of one of the oldest surviving writings - which came from the 2nd Century NOT the 1st.
I say "supposedly lived" because Mark doesn't get the geography of Galilee correct and the travels of Jesus around the region just don't make sense, especially for someone travelling by foot. I urge you to do you're own research and be mindful of reading apologetics websites. I'm not saying don't read them, just remember that they have an agenda when it comes to "proving" scholars wrong. Kinda like the BYU archeological department has a vested interest in proving non LDS North American archeology wrong.
According to tradition, John the Revelator would have lived until around the time the last gospel (named and attributed to him, but likely not written by him) was being written, a couple of decades after Mark was likely formed. That would overlap with the apostolic fathers, such as clement of Rome. Some of the earliest Christian writings were written by people who knew and corresponded with apostles, which I think is just neat history.
No one can really throw out the Old Testament, that dates back pre-Jesus.
Damn JD let JL off the chain at the end! JD was speechless! Not a safe space for the christians today on mormon stories! I love it haha
Jesus was explicitly not a preacher of peace and stated that he came not to bring peace but a sword. He went on to belabor all of the familial bonds he came to sever and call for his cultists to be prepared to die for him. None of this is even related to peace.
Yes John, comadre is a word 😅
Not camaraderie?
James became king in 1603, and he commissioned the translation in reaction to the Geneva Bible, because the margin notes in the Geneva Bible were critical of monarchies.
I think Larson should have placed more emphasis on the fact that the KJV was primarily commissioned to validate the divine right of kings. Also said it was commissioned in the 1570's. These erroneous dates and mispronunciations are getting a bit tiresome, but where else can we get this kind of content?
It was just brought up that the Catholic Church changed female names that were disciples to male names. I am not able to find confirmation of this, can someone help me out? And I'm talking about an actual source material or research to confirm
I burned the whole set in 92. Leather bound standard work set I was suppose to use on my mission. I danced around it like a wild man. They could see the flames for miles. But fear not, they’ll print more.
I am a son of Amasa!!!!
I love John and John, no question. But, I choose to believe in Christ. There is sufficient evidence for me.
Would you mind sharing some of the evidence you found convincing?
Jesus: He that believeth not shall be damned.
John Larsen: I actually like Jesus quite a bit!
i just love when you have John Larsen on.
The oldest scrap of the NT dates from 125-150. It’s from John 18. The oldest scrap of mark is from around 200. There was a recent claim that a markan fragment was discovered dating from the first century is bogus.
Once you decide that the gospels aren’t true, all you have is the beautiful language of the KJV. It’s poetic. So is Shakespeare Let me at least have the poetry after I decide the meaning is valueless
Love this one, so thought provoking. . We actually learn a ton of this as JWs if you read the literature, which a mass of them don't, I found out. But lots of interesting perspectives here, and added information as well. the older I get the more I realize how silly the New Testament is (only mentioning that, simply because that's the topic.)
Literally no one is a sinner. It's not even possible to sin. A sin is not any act that some deems "wrong." A sin is specifically an affront to a deity like not keeping the Sabbath holy or blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. What's harmful is distinct from what's sinful, because the Bible prescribes the death penalty for disobedient children and allows for one human to own another as their slave, both of which are harmful. These things are not considered affronts to the Biblical god, however, and are therefore not sins. While it may be said that humans inevitably cause harm, even if that harm is breathing out carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, harm is not coequal to sin. Sin requires a deity to affront, and no deity evidently exists. Sin is possible only to the extent that it is possible for an American to commit regicide against the King of the United States.
As Prophet, Seer and Revelator in this last dispensation, I will accept John Larson into my fold but first he has to learn to play the FUCKING THEREMIN!!!
How would you find good from a coin? By using it to pay for food for your children.
Just so you are aware, I checked out your recommendation for the NRSV translation of the Bible, and it FAILED THE TEST. Let me explain:
Some time ago while reading through the KJV New Testament, I ran across the passage of Romans 1:18-32 which is commonly used as a Batter Text against the LGBT. Reading carefully so as to be open to its divine message, it became evident that this passage is _not even about homosexuality_! And that it constitutes a highly offensive degradation of women to assume it is.
At someone’s recommendation of the NIV, I compared them and realized for the first time that there were (popular!) mistranslations out there that could not be interpreted any other way but as a bash to LGBT. It didn’t pass the test either, and I attributed this to it being a thought for thought translation which would seem to be more susceptible to the biases of modern interpreters.
But the NRSV _is_ a word for word translation, just like the KJV… and the fact that it fails this test is highly concerning. The example passage you used to discredit the KJV translation in this podcast was hardly significant as translation discrepancies go, and becomes absolutely meaningless in comparison to the NRSV’s modern mistranslation that cannot be taken any other way but to fuel the fires of social injustice.
I could not have discerned the true/divine meaning of the passage by using any of these bible versions that failed the test. And that makes them (very!) dangerous, since so many people trust in them. The wording of the KJV, though undoubtedly flawed in its own way, at least DID allow the true message to come through… one that is consistent with a God that is Love.
Please don’t discredit the KJV anymore, and rethink your recommendation for the NRSV. If there is a better translation than the KJV to recommend, I would be glad to consider it. But it has to pass the test.
Just thought you should know.
Thank you for bringing so much good insight to your Mormon Stories podcasts!
Comadre in Spanish is a Godmother, or a very important female friend who holds a special place in your life; however, it can have a more pejorative meaning of a woman who gossips a lot and thus you can't trust her with secrets.
Fuuuuck yes! 🙌🏻 🙌🏻
I'd encourage John Larsen to ponder a more generous view towards Paul. There is no shortage of scholars who think letters such as Timothy were written in his name just as John and John acknowledged Matthew didn't write Matthew and Mark didn't write Mark. I offer the following "poem" for what is worth.
I, Paul
I’d like to go on record.
Whoever put my name on the
letters to Timothy did so for
their own purposes.
I do not endorse their views.
I did, after all, say that there shall no
longer be male or female, and I
was known in my life to work closely
with a number of women whom I
would consider every bit as much
a part of apostolic succession
as any man.
And apostolic succession, in my
mind, has everything to do with grace
in discipleship
and nothing to do with bishops
legitimizing each other.
I was pretty informal in most matters
of the community. I did hold a few
strong values, that is, to be loving, patient,
kind-you know the list.
Being among the orthodox earlier
in my life had left me pretty scarred.
I had bought into their rigidity, even
to the point of approvingly killing
anyone who might be a threat.
That was before being struck by Love.
While I might occasionally be coaxed
into pondering right belief or mercy,
after the scales fell from my eyes,
mercy would, in all ways, prevail.
Some of the other boys thought
I was a bit too inclusive. But even they
budged on some things regarding
ritual practices. I don’t know why
they thought they had to draw straws
to replace Judas.
Twelve was no magic number when
the charge was to go make disciples.
As far as their confined notion goes,
they would have been better off appointing
the Marys who had proven,
beyond a doubt, their fidelity.
I never knew these women personally.
But I did know
they walked the walk!
My vocation was to the gentiles.
My wise counsel on staying single
(as I was) to free one for service, it seems
to me, remains good advice.
That it was used to enforce
celibacy as a requirement and not a
charism is most unfortunate.
I wasn’t a prude.
If you are passionate,
be passionate. If you can forgo
sexual passions for service, then
wonderful-serve wholeheartedly.
You won’t find me in the shadows
trying to shame
human sexuality, and neither should you.
Such decisions were never meant
to be imposed by group-think or the
male hierarchy of the letter to Timothy.
(What does a bishop know of
another’s heart?)
Whatever you think of me, I’d say this:
I don’t much care these days who you sleep with.
My one rant on temple orgies has been used
to cast the condemning net
far too widely.
I was calling out the blatant evil
that was passing for the status quo.
It comes down to this:
Are your fruits evil or of the Spirit?
The evil fruit is covetousness, malice,
consuming envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness,
gossiping, slandering, hating, insolence,
haughtiness, boastfulness-shall I go on?
While the Spirit bestows love, joy, peace,
forbearance, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
Against such things there is no law!
What part of this do you not get?
Stop using me to condemn others.
Stop using me to keep women
silent and subservient.
Those are your hang-ups.
Not mine.
And to whoever wrote those instructions
on church management to Timothy,
I really wish you’d have taken credit.
Once the scales fell,
I was far more egalitarian than
you represented in my name.
The fruits of deceit and craftiness.
Not good.
From "August Kibler's Stories for Tyler" by TP Graf
The eye of the needle was a small gate in Jerusalem hence the quote