Great video Eric, The Weiand and Summit have the identical runners so the gasket match makes the difference. The Sioux is awesome and a steal. I have had mine since the 90's and cost me $1000 then just to get it back in action. Thanks.
Yup they are both the same design & both overseas cast. So are some of the generic overseas ebay/amazon dual planes, even the vortec bolt pattern ebay intakes I have are the same design. Even the vortec GM 12676887 is the same runner/plenum design and also cast overseas. It's a good design.
I ran those Tork Link manifolds in the early/mid 2000s on street stock circle track engines. Had great success with them. There were about three other engine builders In competition with me, they ran Victor jr and air gap manifolds and there's not much difference when the competition was so tight across the field. I was making around 360hp to the rear tires with a 500cfm 2bbl. However, my engines always had higher torque and the cars actually ran a slightly higher gear(numerically lower) which was beneficial to drive off because the car wouldn't want to step the rear out allowing the driver to get in the gas just a little sooner. So for me they worked. We were not allowed any porting that you could visually see.
I haven't watched the video yet but I'll say thanks for paying some attention to the dual plane. After all, it's touted by most as the go to intake for your average, or even above average racer/street "racer". Thanks in advance.
Eric, thanks for all the education and flow bench info. Your channel is one of my favorites. Would love to see what you could do with combining your flow bench results with a dyno. That would be awesome.
I currently have a large small-block running a RPM qjet intake manifold. It is ported. I'm in the process of porting a Speedmaster single-plane intake. The motor has gobs of low-end torque. just put on an open spacer and it pulls hard at higher RPM. Gonna try to bring it to a chassis Dyno to try both intakes. Love to see a test on a performer RPM q-jet manifold. The overall volume of air that the bigger dual-planes move would help larger cubic inch small blocks. Thank you for all the great content!!
Before I 5.3 swapped my 82Gmc I had a 350sb with this same Street Warrior intake Edelbrock avs2 650cfm carb Msd distributor. 416 305 heads on it. With a 5speed and I was happy with the set up for awhile. Good intake but the heads ran outta breath round 4k rpm
the surprises on the over/under cylinder flow differences seem like one is giving the air a chance to straighten out before it enters the head. reminds me of a quote from a David Vizard Book on sbc heads. let the air flow where it wants to flow, not where you think it should.
Stick with your old Sioux valve grinder! My uncles is from the 50s & still works perfectly! It still looks like new because it’s always covered! It’s great you now have a backup anyway, but you will probably never need it 😂😂😂😂! I know that those Weind intakes on a 383 pickup motor my boss did was down about 20hp compared to the performer rpm! Dual plain intakes 😂😂😂😂😂! Like I said it was going in a truck that pulls a car trailer & plows snow ⛄️! Other than that I really haven’t bolted any of them on in a long time, like I said pickup trucks, heavy cars & stupid circle track rules! The circle track stuff still only allows either the cast iron 2 barrel crap 💩, or the old style non air gap performer with the Canton 4 Barrel to 2 barrel adapter! The faster classes use big single plains, except with a tiny 4 barrel carburetor! It’s still amazing that those cast iron 2 barrel 355/358 engines will run 7500rpm, it’s really amazing that they still have a top end yank, right before they chop throttle for the turns! Again another great video! It would be so much easier if most morons just trusted a good engine builder! Instead of listening to internet supreme morons who never really built or dynoed or actually raced competitively! Just love those professional test & tuners 🙄🙄🙄🙄! 😂😂😂😂
Even for road you are better of getting a Torker instead of a Performer RPM, your going to make at least 15 - 20 foot pound more and if you want the power you are going to rev it up high will driving anyway and you wont notice any less torque, in fact they often feel torqueier
I spent a lot of time studying pictures of all the different manifolds. It looks like the summit intakes are Weiand. I get this from the rubber shape and the vacuum port location.
Hey Eric, Tim here, ya know back in 1982, when i was learning to re-do heads, our valve grinder was similar to ur new addition.......they ways we had though, were kinda coarse, and it was tough to go back and forth to grind properly.......not as smooth at all... smooth ways on a valve grinder, allow a better finish on our seat faces (or back cuts for that matter)......my point is, even if ur new dude has issues, if its ways are smooth, you can do articulate cutting of angles, and be confident of its ability to do it right.....i always like to wipe down the ways with WD40, and go from there.....BOY i miss re-doin heads......wish i didnt have to do wiring on a '66 Continental conv top, (Nitemare) and just work on doin heads rite!!.......my point: ur new valve grinder sounds like a GREAT aquisition for the $ (and ur shop).....if the machine has good bones, good ways, accurate dials, u shud be able to do nice work!!....kinda wish i cud do heads only, and not have to find out why the '66 Lincoln's top dont work.....I DONT CARE, gimmee a set of heads to work on, and i'm happy!!.......I gotta do what I gotta do......LOVE all you do!!...btw, i am wearin my Weingartner Racing t-shirt today!!!.........PEACE!!......look fwd to next vid!!
Erik the felpro one piece permadry oil pan gasket will help with the crappy fit. In the past I used the Motorcraft gray silicone for diesel engines on the pan side of the gasket.once thats set up you can't remove the gasket from the pan without tearing it.the gasket also might help with the clearence issues on the mains.the dart little m with the billit caps uses all 4 bolt main format with front and rear outside bolts 3/8
Eric one question for you can the air flow from the intake to the valve be manipulated with epoxy and turtle's and have you ever tried these thoughts thank you Richard
Might b that carb ? I tried the 850, avs, the motor pulled the carb gasket ,& caused a base gasket leak , I put a proform on the ram air 4, , you want to buy a nice new cheap avs ?? What a difference , will actually flow air & gas at same time
On a previous video you commented about a replacement blast cabinet gun/hose that you used on your Harbor Freight blast cabinet. What was the brand name of the gun you used a liked so much over the HF orginal? Thanks.
I’m curious if you look deeper in the runners if the castings of the new manifolds are just not as good as they older ones. Some casting being done in other countries are very poor quality. Just a question
Great work again Always interesting and informative Love to see you do older Cain intake from Australian manufacturer When they designed the Holley hi rise Would that have been flow calculated from the first initial cad drawings and found there algorithms useless as per the actual test results Why would they keep producing a low flow hi rise intake .
Are there any streetable tunnel rams for big or small block Chevys that make superior power to single 4 manifolds and are not fuel distribution nightmares? Not everyone has Steve Brule as a neighbor.
Eric, all the blocks with the extra bolts in the front main have had pan issues from the early Hawks to the modern Donovans like We currently run. The extra 3/8 bolts they put in there don't do enough to warrant the hassle, a damned dowel pin would work better to stabilize the cap.
Thanks for the great video Eric! Did you try stacking washers on the ends of the oil pan and torquing it down in the middle? That might take some of the warp out. Also, that Holley Stealth Ram was made for stock TPI heads, so porting it will definitely help. I have seen guys scallop the the top of the runners to make a point in the center and get a lot of better air flow. Speedway not makes this lower for Vortec heads. I am considering it for my '83 Z28 if I can get an upper. Holley also still sells the fuel rails and line kits.
Hey Eric really enjoy your videos, there very knowledgeable. Did you ever find out why those heads that punched thru the intake and exhaust made power with nitrous, and why there's no exhaust carbon in the intake ports. Thanks Dan Russo nyc
Ok so something I never tried and can no longer try it but flow numbers on a head NA and with say 15psi push... What I am wondering is if the percentage of flow increase with port work is linear with a boosted head.. say 5% increase NA and then boosted to 2bar does that increase relate to 5% still ? or 10% because of the extra bar? I am thinking that porting on a boosted application may be more a waste of time? Dunno.... can you see?
Porting is never a waste of time on a boosted deal. Boost is just a measure of restriction. In most cases after porting the heads you make more power with less boost. At the same boost level you make considerably more power. Sure you could turn up the boost to match that on a non ported head but you would have to turn it up a lot and thats more stress on the engine and harder to tune. Eventually you hit a wall and the ported head will not hit that wall until several hundred horsepower more.
@@WeingartnerRacing very good.... Our BAE heads you could reach down the intake runners and polish the tops of the pistons... So bigger was better, I was just completely dumb to how NA numbers ramped compared to boosted flows.. Reason I ask is that I am doing an LS setup on 210 as cast... It is a world away from KB fuel motors... We were doing turbo setups in the 70s and 80s with success (well til NHRA stepped in) and was when I went to work on fuel cars..
@@WeingartnerRacing is the de-atomized fuel in the bendy dual plane worth switching to a single plane (until I save up for port injection intake that is?)
How would an FE head flow with a PortOSonic intake attached to the head, A CJ head that flows 285 without the intake manifold and I would really like to what the extreme difference with a head like an FE really short alone. , but I have seen the PortOSonic increase the flow of the head and I wonder if it is an issue of velocity vs flow or a snap shot of the port as it was engineered to be. I am excited for when you flow some FE stuff. I want to turbocharge a 416 cube engine with a pair of GT35s and the head alone flows 285 at .500- and goes to 292 at .600. The PortOSonic improved it by 10 cfm from .300 at each data point to .700 ending up at 306 at .700. 302 at .600 etc. I am excited to see how you do completeing the port..
Wow. I've been holding on to my Tork Link manifold for 25 years thinking is was the greatest with the long huge runners, but apparently not........It worked great on a 383 with iron Dart heads but that was 25 years ago.
Summit is knock off of weiand The summit air gap vortec stile has terrible looking port casting The ports on the head side look almost staggered up and down Like the one I had .100 to .150 up and down on the ports might of just been the one I got
Great video Eric, The Weiand and Summit have the identical runners so the gasket match makes the difference. The Sioux is awesome and a steal. I have had mine since the 90's and cost me $1000 then just to get it back in action. Thanks.
Yup they are both the same design & both overseas cast. So are some of the generic overseas ebay/amazon dual planes, even the vortec bolt pattern ebay intakes I have are the same design. Even the vortec GM 12676887 is the same runner/plenum design and also cast overseas. It's a good design.
Great job showing what’s involved flowing heads with the manifold bolted up . Cheers
I ran those Tork Link manifolds in the early/mid 2000s on street stock circle track engines. Had great success with them. There were about three other engine builders In competition with me, they ran Victor jr and air gap manifolds and there's not much difference when the competition was so tight across the field. I was making around 360hp to the rear tires with a 500cfm 2bbl. However, my engines always had higher torque and the cars actually ran a slightly higher gear(numerically lower) which was beneficial to drive off because the car wouldn't want to step the rear out allowing the driver to get in the gas just a little sooner. So for me they worked. We were not allowed any porting that you could visually see.
Lol 😂 yep those old manifolds covered in grime always win. Great info Eric
I haven't watched the video yet but I'll say thanks for paying some attention to the dual plane. After all, it's touted by most as the go to intake for your average, or even above average racer/street "racer". Thanks in advance.
Eric, thanks for all the education and flow bench info. Your channel is one of my favorites. Would love to see what you could do with combining your flow bench results with a dyno. That would be awesome.
I currently have a large small-block running a RPM qjet intake manifold. It is ported. I'm in the process of porting a Speedmaster single-plane intake. The motor has gobs of low-end torque. just put on an open spacer and it pulls hard at higher RPM. Gonna try to bring it to a chassis Dyno to try both intakes. Love to see a test on a performer RPM q-jet manifold. The overall volume of air that the bigger dual-planes move would help larger cubic inch small blocks. Thank you for all the great content!!
I'm a fan of the Performer RPM Q-Jet intake, I think it's often overlooked and folk go with a square bore intake because they think they have to.
Thanks for the great information. Love your videos!
I'd love to see how the old Holley 300-36 would stack up to these manifolds. That intake was a badass dual plane.
Love all the help and info. Thank you
Great video.I always watch to the end
Thanks for doing dual planes. Love the info but I'm just a street guy.
Would love to see some stuff on the gen 2 LT1 chevys. Probably not enough market for it though.
I’d like to see a factory quadrajet manifold as part of this comparison, just for the fun of it.
Like my 1976 L-82 (350) Quadrajet
Keep up the the good work. Excellent video!!!!! Everyone pay attention!!!!
Before I 5.3 swapped my 82Gmc I had a 350sb with this same Street Warrior intake Edelbrock avs2 650cfm carb Msd distributor. 416 305 heads on it. With a 5speed and I was happy with the set up for awhile. Good intake but the heads ran outta breath round 4k rpm
No reversion at or below 1.00" lift and continuous gains ? Very nice work Sir. I don't think I have ever seen that on SB heads. Amazing.
I wish someone would bring back the Torqlink intake, I've been looking for one for two years with no luck, I know my truck would love it.
Is the other side of the manifold blocked off??
Is it flowing air bypassing the carb and drawing air from other ports?
the surprises on the over/under cylinder flow differences seem like one is giving the air a chance to straighten out before it enters the head. reminds me of a quote from a David Vizard Book on sbc heads. let the air flow where it wants to flow, not where you think it should.
Stick with your old Sioux valve grinder! My uncles is from the 50s & still works perfectly! It still looks like new because it’s always covered! It’s great you now have a backup anyway, but you will probably never need it 😂😂😂😂! I know that those Weind intakes on a 383 pickup motor my boss did was down about 20hp compared to the performer rpm! Dual plain intakes 😂😂😂😂😂! Like I said it was going in a truck that pulls a car trailer & plows snow ⛄️! Other than that I really haven’t bolted any of them on in a long time, like I said pickup trucks, heavy cars & stupid circle track rules! The circle track stuff still only allows either the cast iron 2 barrel crap 💩, or the old style non air gap performer with the Canton 4 Barrel to 2 barrel adapter! The faster classes use big single plains, except with a tiny 4 barrel carburetor! It’s still amazing that those cast iron 2 barrel 355/358 engines will run 7500rpm, it’s really amazing that they still have a top end yank, right before they chop throttle for the turns! Again another great video! It would be so much easier if most morons just trusted a good engine builder! Instead of listening to internet supreme morons who never really built or dynoed or actually raced competitively! Just love those professional test & tuners 🙄🙄🙄🙄! 😂😂😂😂
Even for road you are better of getting a Torker instead of a Performer RPM, your going to make at least 15 - 20 foot pound more and if you want the power you are going to rev it up high will driving anyway and you wont notice any less torque, in fact they often feel torqueier
Very well done. I have a tork link and i couldnt feel the difference in a dirt stock car.
I spent a lot of time studying pictures of all the different manifolds. It looks like the summit intakes are Weiand. I get this from the rubber shape and the vacuum port location.
you can use GM PAN rails supports w a thick 1 piece pan gasket
5👍's up EWR thanks for sharing
differrent length runners softens up the torque same deal with headers
Hey Eric,
Tim here, ya know back in 1982, when i was learning to re-do heads, our valve grinder was similar to ur new addition.......they ways we had though, were kinda coarse, and it was tough to go back and forth to grind properly.......not as smooth at all... smooth ways on a valve grinder, allow a better finish on our seat faces (or back cuts for that matter)......my point is, even if ur new dude has issues, if its ways are smooth, you can do articulate cutting of angles, and be confident of its ability to do it right.....i always like to wipe down the ways with WD40, and go from there.....BOY i miss re-doin heads......wish i didnt have to do wiring on a '66 Continental conv top, (Nitemare) and just work on doin heads rite!!.......my point: ur new valve grinder sounds like a GREAT aquisition for the $ (and ur shop).....if the machine has good bones, good ways, accurate dials, u shud be able to do nice work!!....kinda wish i cud do heads only, and not have to find out why the '66 Lincoln's top dont work.....I DONT CARE, gimmee a set of heads to work on, and i'm happy!!.......I gotta do what I gotta do......LOVE all you do!!...btw, i am wearin my Weingartner Racing t-shirt today!!!.........PEACE!!......look fwd to next vid!!
Thanks for all you do, lot of time tied up making this video
Thanks for sharing with us 👍
Sent you an E-mail
Erik the felpro one piece permadry oil pan gasket will help with the crappy fit. In the past I used the Motorcraft gray silicone for diesel engines on the pan side of the gasket.once thats set up you can't remove the gasket from the pan without tearing it.the gasket also might help with the clearence issues on the mains.the dart little m with the billit caps uses all 4 bolt main format with front and rear outside bolts 3/8
Eric one question for you can the air flow from the intake to the valve be manipulated with epoxy and turtle's and have you ever tried these thoughts thank you Richard
I like open plenum intakes with a four barrel tapered one inch four hole spacer with a double pumper hOLLEY carb
do you know if the present summit manifolds are the same as the older one you tested?
Might b that carb ? I tried the 850, avs, the motor pulled the carb gasket ,& caused a base gasket leak , I put a proform on the ram air 4, , you want to buy a nice new cheap avs ?? What a difference , will actually flow air & gas at same time
I know this is a year old but I was wondering why you didn't tape the runners on the open side of the intakes. Wouldn't it draw air through them?
I'm surprised that hi tech manifold made so little numbers. My guess is low velocity due to large runner size. If I'm wrong let me know please.
I would like to see if filling in the giant divider cut out in the torque link would make a difference on a dyno.
On a previous video you commented about a replacement blast cabinet gun/hose that you used on your Harbor Freight blast cabinet. What was the brand name of the gun you used a liked so much over the HF orginal? Thanks.
I’m curious if you look deeper in the runners if the castings of the new manifolds are just not as good as they older ones. Some casting being done in other countries are very poor quality. Just a question
Great work again
Always interesting and informative
Love to see you do older Cain intake from Australian manufacturer
When they designed the Holley hi rise
Would that have been flow calculated from the first initial cad drawings and found there algorithms useless as per the actual test results
Why would they keep producing a low flow hi rise intake .
Are there any streetable tunnel rams for big or small block Chevys that make superior power to single 4 manifolds and are not fuel distribution nightmares? Not everyone has Steve Brule as a neighbor.
I have a brand new still in the box Edelbrock RPM Air gap intake for sbc!!
Eric, all the blocks with the extra bolts in the front main have had pan issues from the early Hawks to the modern Donovans like We currently run. The extra 3/8 bolts they put in there don't do enough to warrant the hassle, a damned dowel pin would work better to stabilize the cap.
Nothing beats the old holley strip dominator
You should watch the video we’re I flowed several single plane manifolds. Many beat it.
Great video
Thanks for the great video Eric! Did you try stacking washers on the ends of the oil pan and torquing it down in the middle? That might take some of the warp out. Also, that Holley Stealth Ram was made for stock TPI heads, so porting it will definitely help. I have seen guys scallop the the top of the runners to make a point in the center and get a lot of better air flow. Speedway not makes this lower for Vortec heads. I am considering it for my '83 Z28 if I can get an upper. Holley also still sells the fuel rails and line kits.
Thanks!
Thank you.
Hey Eric really enjoy your videos, there very knowledgeable. Did you ever find out why those heads that punched thru the intake and exhaust made power with nitrous, and why there's no exhaust carbon in the intake ports. Thanks Dan Russo nyc
No but I will try it on the dyno mule.
👍
Any chance on doing a video on lessons learnt at engine masters?
How would the flow vary if the other ports were taped off when flowing?
Watch part 2. I do just that.
Ok so something I never tried and can no longer try it but flow numbers on a head NA and with say 15psi push... What I am wondering is if the percentage of flow increase with port work is linear with a boosted head.. say 5% increase NA and then boosted to 2bar does that increase relate to 5% still ? or 10% because of the extra bar? I am thinking that porting on a boosted application may be more a waste of time? Dunno.... can you see?
Porting is never a waste of time on a boosted deal. Boost is just a measure of restriction. In most cases after porting the heads you make more power with less boost. At the same boost level you make considerably more power. Sure you could turn up the boost to match that on a non ported head but you would have to turn it up a lot and thats more stress on the engine and harder to tune. Eventually you hit a wall and the ported head will not hit that wall until several hundred horsepower more.
@@WeingartnerRacing very good.... Our BAE heads you could reach down the intake runners and polish the tops of the pistons... So bigger was better, I was just completely dumb to how NA numbers ramped compared to boosted flows.. Reason I ask is that I am doing an LS setup on 210 as cast... It is a world away from KB fuel motors... We were doing turbo setups in the 70s and 80s with success (well til NHRA stepped in) and was when I went to work on fuel cars..
If you look at the plenum on your Summit intake you will see the bulge on the plenum just like the Weiand.
Eric, help me understand how fuel doesn’t fall out of suspension with the turns in dual plane intakes vs. straight shot singles?
It does.
@@WeingartnerRacing is the de-atomized fuel in the bendy dual plane worth switching to a single plane (until I save up for port injection intake that is?)
I have a 406 sbc with the old edelbrock 450hp kit with upgraded full roller cam 280H. What can be done to make it have over 500hp or better.
Nitrous
Go to a 305 cam
@@hallwest9650 thank you
i had problems with my made in America moroso oil pan as well,as well as my shp block
I have been told " intake port volume should be between 85% - 105% of cylinder volume........... any truth to that statement ?
It’s based off of rpm and engine size.
How would an FE head flow with a PortOSonic intake attached to the head, A CJ head that flows 285 without the intake manifold and I would really like to what the extreme difference with a head like an FE really short alone. , but I have seen the PortOSonic increase the flow of the head and I wonder if it is an issue of velocity vs flow or a snap shot of the port as it was engineered to be. I am excited for when you flow some FE stuff. I want to turbocharge a 416 cube engine with a pair of GT35s and the head alone flows 285 at .500- and goes to 292 at .600. The PortOSonic improved it by 10 cfm from .300 at each data point to .700 ending up at 306 at .700. 302 at .600 etc. I am excited to see how you do completeing the port..
The summit intake manifold is a weiand Eric
Curious if you have ever done any work on a Buick Nailhead? The head flow is abysmal to say the least and I plan to port mine myself (carefully).
Have you done a flow test on the old edelbrock crossram intakes? I have the xc-8 for small block chevy.
If you want I can send you one of my old 2nd gen LT1 intake manifold lol
I would be interested in seeing the results of that intake as well!!
Please add the flow at 0.050" lift...
I don’t do that.
Wow. I've been holding on to my Tork Link manifold for 25 years thinking is was the greatest with the long huge runners, but apparently not........It worked great on a 383 with iron Dart heads but that was 25 years ago.
Do you block off the other runners while flowing?
Wouldnt it draw air through them otherwise?
Not on the dual plane I didn’t.
@@WeingartnerRacing maybe it doesnt make any difference. 🤔
Does all nos plates slow one dwn a 10th
Summit is knock off of weiand
The summit air gap vortec stile has terrible looking port casting
The ports on the head side look almost staggered up and down
Like the one I had .100 to .150 up and down on the ports might of just been the one I got
What for
Summit is Weiand
I seen one just like that on Facebook marketplace for sale
Not sure this is test is valid and that torque-link intake is dumb and shouldn’t work well.