Twins in Astrology: Born At the Same Time But Different Fates?
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
- A discussion about the issue of twins in astrology, and how astrologers deal with the birth charts of two people who are born at the same time, with astrologers Chris Brennan and Adam Elenbaas.
If the premise of natal astrology is that the alignment of the planets at the moment a person was born will indicate their character, future, and fate, then this naturally raises the question of what about people who were born close together in time and have essentially the same birth chart?
During the course of the discussion we explore this issue from both a technical and philosophical perspective, first explaining how even two charts born close in time are not always the same, and how even the same chart can have different manifestations depending on the context and environment a person was born into.
Later we delve into issues about how people with the same charts can manifest the placements in different ways based on the choices a person makes.
This is the video version of episode 167 of The Astrology Podcast, and you can download the higher quality audio version or read the full show notes here:
theastrologypodcast.com/2018/0...
Check out Adam's RUclips channel here:
/ humboyhum
Be sure to like, subscribe, and let us know what you think in the comments section below!
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Timestamps
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:19 Parameters of twins criticism of astrology
00:05:19 Twins issue helps astrologers dig deeper
00:06:36 Historical context of twins critique
00:13:06 Augustine's twins critique
00:16:33 Catholic difficulty with astrology
00:17:23 Establishing differences in twins' charts
00:19:52 Different term rulers of ascendant in twins
00:21:05 Ascendant degree moves rapidly
00:22:35 All the houses change when ascendant changes signs
00:24:12 Midheaven moves and could change signs
00:25:11 Planets becoming more or less angular
00:27:22 Sect can change
00:30:30 The Moon can change signs
00:34:13 Switch from applying to separating aspects
00:38:00 Enclosure that begins or ends
00:41:56 Changes in Lots
00:44:34 Subdivisions - decans, bounds, 12th parts
00:58:49 Indian subdivisions
01:07:34 3rd house for younger siblings and 11th house for older siblings
01:09:40 Changes in timing techniques
01:11:09 Changes in zodiacal releasing periods
01:14:40 Dividing the Chart technique
01:23:01 Context of the Chart
01:37:14 Archetypally similar manifestations
01:40:45 Fate, free will, and karma
01:49:15 Impact of synastry on development
01:55:34 The abundance of operable variables
01:59:30 Relocation astrology
02:02:54 Free Will vs. Fate
02:11:46 How much does the chart represent the soul?
02:18:38 Modern consultations
02:22:40 Adam's website and RUclips
02:25:39 Chris' course
02:25:50 Closing remarks
If anyone finds any interesting signatures in the charts of twins let me know!
1. Elvis Presley had a twin who was stillborn 35 minutes before him. There is no change of tropical angles, Fortune or Daimon, yet one is immensely popular, while the other is stillborn?
2. Although Ptolemy uses the context analogy, it is notable that people like Dorotheus and Valens would use astrological techniques to find out the gender of the child. There is a reference to relocational astrology in Olympiodorus where it says that a relevant significator in a given sign would make one travel in that country, it seems that it is also fated. I get the feeling they had a technique for explaining everything.
Synastry with the parents and other people is from my reading - irrelevant in the context of Hellenistic natal astrology as most people believed that everything is fated in the chart itself. Even those who used a hierarchy of universal and natal considerations, the natal would always be higher than the electional, horary and other stuff (for example there was an Arabic author that said that the length of life technique is lesser to the universal significations of war, which would take over the lives of many, I do not think that should be applied to elections as it would make natal astrology mostly irrelevant?)
3. The biggest problem of twins that was not mentioned in my opinion is the following - if one assigns too much importance to subdivisions and lots, then one must have a very precise birth time. If one assigns less importance to such points, the birth time is less problematic, but the issue of twins is absolutely unresolvable and makes any kind of astrology unviable. Therefore in my opinion, we need to attach more importance to the degree of the angles, the Lots and subdivisions, perhaps finding the right balance (attaching more importance to many lots rather than using the 20736th harmonic). It has to be sound in theory and practice.
The problem of 350000 people born every day was understated in this podcast because I have encountered it twice, and it is not as weak as it looks. My best response to that would be the following points:
1. Universal/Mundane significations come first - i.e. like Ptolemy says we should not assign ''marriage with a sister to one who is Italian by race, instead of to the Egyptian as he should, and a marriage with his mother to this latter, though it suits the Persian'' or I will add cousin marriages for Arabs. And he says not to assign white colour and blond hair for the Ethiopian either. I will also add that if an aborigine is distinguished at the nativity, it will be among his tribe. Gender and gender equality in the nation will also have an effect as a result.
I completely agree that context matters, but there should be simple astrological techniques that find the mundane effects on the nativity - for example I personally use the location of the nativity for estimating the direction of travelling locations or paranatellonta. Universal and natal and inceptional astrology should be viewed as harmonious hierarchy pointing to the same thing rather than one being contrary to each other, and one category being overemphasized to the point it makes another limb obsolete.
2. There are 12 signs, but that still leaves us with 29166! people for each rising sign on average (this is very crude, because of point 5).
3. The Moon can't be at the same place at every meridian. That includes the other planets, but not to the same extent.
4. There is also the difference of parallels, which makes for completely different paranatellonta.
5. There are some signs that short (rise fast), others that are long (rise slow). That means that some nativities are rare or will have different Time Lords in the circumambulation through the bounds and thus in the Length of Life. (Or in primary directions if one favors that.) Note that some countries are more populuous with specific rising times - like China and India.
6. And in each sign, there are 30 degrees, that on average 972 people for each degree (crude estimate, see point 5). If one uses 12 lots on average, he has 12 hour-markers. That would mean that some hundred people may have on average similar charts without taking into account universals (point 1), degree of the Moon, paranatellonta or the differences in the minutes of birth.
7. Every individual is unique there and this 350000 argument is valid only for specific forms of astrology that ignore the above.
Twin of a friend of mine, 2 minutes away from each other, 2 different ASc., when thinking about Liz Greene's theory about dividing the chart: both Saturn in the 6th House in Taurus, one having health problem at birth, the other one not.
Even as a die hard believer and a student I have such a hard time with this. I married an identical twin. They have the same rising same degree and look identical but behave like they are two planets is opposing one another. I can not wrap my head about this and I am glad I found this . Hoping for clarity. Thank you I’m advance😊
my two favorite astrologers in one video this is so excitingg
Me too 🤭 I have such an astrology nerd crush on these guys!
Chris, in my studies of astrology charts and numerology charts, what makes twins different are the birth names they are given which makes them have different lives in a lot of ways. I have found that both charts work together to have circumstances play out in their lives, at times very differently. I love your podcasts by the way!
Yes! Great point.
Your point is that if they had identical names they would share identical fates?
I'm one of a triples ... And it's very interesting podcast 🎉
So happy to see Adam on a podcast episode 🙏
Please do more interview on this topic! It's super interesting. Could you interview Ernst Wilhelm, he also has a twin and astrologer too?
I have also understood the given birth name can be the difference but even with twins it is rare the children were brought into the world at the exact same moment so there are astrological differences but also how the parents respond to each child (based on triggers etc) can also craft the learned behaviors that are mistakenly considered the childs "personality", but in actuality it is learned behavior not their true "personality".
💯💯💯💯
I found this quite interesting.
But a question is roaming in my mind.
If there is so much variation and if context affects even twins so greatly, to the point where they can literally become complete opposite personalities. Why even try to define personality according to star signs? Isn't the individual always affected by context and his own life experience to an extent that will make him completely different from another person with the same star sign?
If all requires context, then simply there is no need to assume star signs even affect a person in a specific way since we all are different and can be completely opposites even when we are born at the same time / in the same place / from the same mother etc etc
Wonder twins activate! Form of my two fave astro podcast guys!
This upload made my weekend! I've been curious about this topic for a long time.
Chris, we need more people like you in Classics and the history of philosophy. If you ever wanna jump ship to academia, you'd make a big contribution there as well. :) Thank you for such a strong show, especially for the discussion about Augustine.
Loved this episode, the discussion was fascinating, thanks. Definitely one of my favourites so far and I've been listening to a lot of episodes.
Wonderful discussion! Thanks. I hope someday you'll add a Part 2. I would also be interested in more talks that discuss the Nature vs. Nurture opinion which comes often come up in philosophical conversations regarding levels of education. 💫
My nieces were born last Friday with just one minute difference (caesarean).
But I guess there are many ways a chart can play out depending on what the soul needs to master…that’s how I see it…😋
My two favorite astrologers in one podcast! Chris, your thought at 1:17:53... I am, as you are, sensitive to the the treatment of ancient sciences being treated as folklore, or superstition. The serious study of astrology by an open-minded 'respected scientist' would really help us all. Oh, and watching this 10 days before the 2020 election... what Adam said about the death of the U.S in 2016...
oh, and about 2:15 timestamp and you both are so tired, but so engaged... like an 'all night talk between friends" which induces the "ideas hangover" the next morning. =.)
Here to learn, Chris. Thank you.
Very interesting! I’m a twin, 45min apart. My twin was born first and she is an Aries ascendant and I’m a Taurus ascendant. We share commonalities and commonalities in life experiences (kids, she teaches HS and coaches, I teach yoga and work 1-1 with people).
Thanks you guys. I have identical twins in my array of siblings. I'll take a fresh look. I found especially interesting the last section about twins dividing up their chart. Seems totally plausible! One thing I have always observed about these two, my younger brothers, when thinking of their character, (they are born very close indeed to the Gemini/Cancer cusp; they fall on the Cancer side by the hair of their chinny chin-chins. One grew up and chose his opposite sign for a mate (twice he's done this), while the other chose a Gemini and has stuck with that choice long term (with lots of vocal complaint from time to time). The one married to Capricorn(s) never complained widely at all, but the rest of my large family has had plenty of complaints about both of the ladies he's married.
My daughter's twin girls were born 2 minutes apart. They used to have their own language and it took a lot of work to get them to speak French. Even today, 18 years later, you can feel their closeness being so deep it is intimidating. Amazing girls I love to the Moon and back. I am blessed to have them in my life. They were born on July 3, 2000 at 4:22 pm and 4:24 pm.
my sister and i were also born two minutes apart and we feel the same way 2002, 11:55am and 11:57.
My identical twin daughter's are what's known as mirror twins- zygote splitting around 12 days after conception. One left handed, one right. Fingerprints and hair swirls opposite. They have very similar personalities and are close as can be. Born 4/28/01 11:00/11:01 pm. And they are budding astrologers to boot!
Should listen to it first, but me and my brother are something like yin & yang. When i was good in school, he wasn't. We never had at the same time a partner. He is sporty and realistic, a down to earth personality and i am the dreamy, sensual, romantic, spiritual one. Sun-Pisces born on the Leo/Virgo-Cusp. Sadly they wrote for both of us as time of birth 6 PM.
lovd this ep
I think the issue of twins in astrology isn't even the biggest issue, a way bigger issue is that more than 250 babies are born every minute. So non of us have a unique chart. There is no way to distinguish all those people and their fate via astrology alone. All astrology does is give us a framework of possibilities and opportunities and the different fate pattern can only play out within this framework but how they will play out depends on the environment, genes, different experiences, desires and probably (a bit) of free will. Perhaps some fated things are just not indicated anywhere, maybe we are not meant to know everything.
That is such a great point! I am an identical twin (born 13min apart) which was enough to change our ascendant mine Aquarius my sis Pisces. I guess studying twins would give more insight as to how certain placements actually do play out! From personal experience my sister and I have had major and minor events happen in the same way at the same time...or at the same time but caused by different events.. eg: we both met our first bf on the same night at the same party...this party happened to be 3hrs away from where we lived and my sister decided at the last minute to even go. We both had a (close to) breakdown at the same time (emotional exhaustion) and were put on a sickness benefit literally in the same week.
Excellent discussion on twins. I’m looking at the chart of twins now. As a relatively, new student of astrology I haven’t quite fleshed out my thoughts of how retrograde planets in a natal chart plays out in people’s lives. However, I was wondering with some astrologers speaking to retrograde planets allowing the native to be more introspective or allowing the native to have more of a choice in those areas could it be possible that retrograde planets might speak to twins playing things out differently in that area of their lives?
great topic..i would also love to learn more about rectification and terms and bounds as a person with a questionable birth time. One interesting observation i have made with a set of twins that i am friends with, is the notion that the "older" twin being more dominant or alpa in regards to "birth time", but that concept being interrupted by C Section. For instance, my friend who is older by C section by 2 minutes, is actually the less dominant twin in their relationship but if they were to have had a natural birth, she would have been the youngest. Perhaps this is explained in the concepts of terms and bounds but just another twig in the spokes and I know the issue of C section brings up a whole other can of worms.
Very interesting
According to childbirth educator Robin Elise Weiss, PhD:
"The average time between the birth of the first and second baby is generally about 17 minutes. However, as long as the monitor shows the second baby is doing well there's no great need to speed things along. Sometimes during this phase of waiting, you will have an ultrasound to confirm the position of the second twin and your practitioner will decide how it is best to deliver him or her."
Great discussion. And bless you Chris for standing up for the teenage girl astrologers 🩷🩷🩷
This is interesting. Always loved the show so I'm surprised that three years after this airing, I am just now seeing it, especially since I have twins.
I have identical twins who were born just 14 minutes apart and yet they are like night and day.
They are both Sadge rising, both have pluto conjunct moon on their ASC. One has pluto moon before the ASC, one has them below the ASC. It fascinates me how where the planets fall near the ASC really plays out.
Thank you for this video as there is not that much information on twins
Thank you so much 🙏 ❤️
Hi guys! I’ve had this argument with myself and came to the conclusion that twins by definition will 99% of the time make a search for individuation at some point in their lives. Also that the socialisation aspect of the twins experiencing any situation on their own subjective interpretation is going to have some effect. “2 bodies can not share the same space at the same time”. Which I believe is a physic quote. It’s pretty basic when you think about it. Can you step into my shoes? And I yours...
One thing about the sidereal astrology practiced in India is that they have charts which reveal differences between twin births, even twins born mere minutes apart. In india they have 'varga' charts, theyrr divisional or sub charts. Any birth chart in Indian astrology has an additional 20 to 30ish(forgot) varga charts. And the 60th varga chart for example changes every 60 seconds i believe? Maybe less. The point being that these charts can notice the differences between twins more overtly
Would love to share so much on charts.. I've been married 25 years to Rick, my husband. Hope to share light on twins in astrology.
Hi Chris! I have just recently gotten into astrology and I was doing for fun a comparison of my and my partners natal charts. They almost perfectly align - what could this mean?? Any insight would be helpful! Cheers!
-Jenna from NJ
Great topic, I have identical twin sons born 1 minute apart, I had to have the c section as one son was getting to much and other not hardly any( there is a name I just forget ) Both on the autism spectrum. In some ways they are very similar but other ways completely different to the point of being opposite of each other.
In Vedic astrology there is a chart of a mathematical division of 1 zodiac into 60 zodiacs. The ascendant of that chart changes every 120 seconds.
Yes...I was told to look at the D60 chart to see the differences in twins. But then you have to know how to interpret the D60 🤯🙄... (I’m an identical twin)
My sisters were born just two minutes apart form each other. They have the same ascendant, but their lives and personalities really went opposite ways. One is married with a child and husband and became very responsible, and one is having a very difficult time struggling with alcoholism and struggling pretty bad.
oooo Fancy thumbnail! You're going places. I really want to see that Triplets documentary, I wish they didn't just release it in theaters. Boo.
I am an identical twin born exactly 15 minutes after my twin so do we have the same chart ? When i did natal chart we were both libra sun scorpio moon and aquarius rising i watced tbis podcast and did not vet an anzwere to my queztion
Hate to be that guy, but I def heard "The Sacred Hole" instead of "The Sacred Whole" and perked right up
I wish I had exact times of my father and his twin's birth because they had overall different lives but the thread was they both moved away from their hometown and married difficult people and both had 2 children each.
Vedic D9 chart is the self of the native after 36 years of age or the life after marriage.
This is very interesting! I have a twin. One hour and 27 minutes apart. Literally night and day. I was born with a full moon ascending in Taurus conjunct the ascendant within one degree.
Hank Roest vedic or tropical? In tropical, libra.
If you do a google search it appears that the average time between the birth of twins is 17 minutes, which equates to about 3.33 degrees in my 41 degree latitude birth chart. I'm not sure if that would change based on latitude...
And conjoined twins?
I have a lot of thoughts since my boyfriend is an identical twin. When I met their twin over the holidays, it was like seeing the same chart in a different font
The Barnum effect is real here
My husband is a twin. Know the birth times. His twin sister was in an accident at age 12. They are9:57 and 10:04
🙏🔥💚
For any reason, if there is a cesarean done, the twins will tend to be close at the time of birth. My twins are 1 min apart.
John Anthony West "The Case for Astrology" published sometime in the 70s
I have an identical twin brother.
I have twins are completely different when they were 4 i started getting into astrology i was not wanting to criticize astrology bc their birth chart did not match them an being the life path 7 i am i navigated like crazy my boys were born 10:06 and 10:09 am feb 15 2013 an going into the moon it changed from aries to taurus at 10:08am my first child is a red head karate loving gotta be first selfish aries moon and my baby is a calm, cuddly, emotional ladies man lazy taurus moon totally resignates..plus they are a 29 degree aries asc which could of changed
The url for this tho... lol.