Limited projection tooling refers to how far a cutter is reasonably considered safe to project clear of the cutter mount/body. It's different for different cutter types. Flush/straight blades can be as little as 1 - 1.3mm to be "safe". Moulding cutters allow for more for obvious reasons but, the deepest part of the shaped cutter should still stand off no more than 1mm or so. The bit you're using complies no problem with that. Look at the part the carbide cutter seats in (not the valleys) and how the leadingblade edge stands off. It's kosher. More relevant might be bs en 847 - 2 on shank mounts specifically but even then, there's nothing about your bit that shouts non compliance. It's just a big bit. I've got a giant 52mm long by 28mm diacompression bit which should come with a warning - but doesn't an is readily available from Rutlands! I use it hand held too - video evidence of it in fact😂 Like the hsa state - and it goes as much for the home or commercial operator - competence and confidence is key. Don't operate something you feel is unsafe or beyond your current skill. To that end, these giant router bits, although legal, should carry a warning "only for experienced operators" or something. A rooky could come unstuck. One last thing in case anyone actually reads this: run these large heavy bits on equally heavyduty routers. 1800w +. They'll kill the electronic speed controllers on underpowered machines. 👍
Although I don't want to get into an argument about it, I personally don't think it's kosher. The carbide appears to be projecting more than 1.1mm from the body of the cutter which is the regulation for all router cutters over 16mm in diameter, as well as the gullet in front of the cutter being too large.
Thank you for this in-depth information. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for doing our own risk assessments and continue to until the job is finished or you stop. The knowledge to do that assessment, as you say, can be the problem. Knowledge such as cutting speeds of the timer, etc. Thank you!
Hello Peter, I have one of these bits, sourced from a local supplier (Australia). I have used it in my Jet Spindle Moulder and in a hand held Triton Router. It made short work of cleaning up a Redgum table top. Don't worry, the first time I spun it up, I hid below the table top of my SM.
Hi Peter! Thanks for showing and testing this router bit. I had to smile, seeing you hiding under the bench for the first spinning test. I thought I'd be the only one, doing things like this - better safe than sorry. The results were promising and I will order the bit for my router table (OK, I'm a dangerseeker, I also love dado-stacks 😉). When I found their webshop, I was even tempted, to buy a helical cutterhead for my Triton thickness planer, however the Triton is not on their large list (yet?). Thank you once more for this interesting find. Cheers from Germany Andreas
As a time served wood machinist , helical heads are great and, the torque on the torx machine screws that hold the scribing knives always overtighten during use. I have never had one fall out. I didnt know they existed for router flush trim and, now i am going to get one for sure! How annoying is it when you flush trim a load of formica-faced board and, within about 20metres the knife of the bit has a hollow worn into it? Well this solve the problem. And, the finish you got on the oak is unbeatable. Big fan, thanks for your insight and content.
Key insight indeed. Like bike pedals that screw as you pedal, these have threads oriented so they screw in as it spins. That makes sense and means the cutting squares won't fly off like shrapnel!
One way to tell if your cutting tool is sharp is that it produces tiny shavings not dust. I get those with my new saw blades too. The shavings look like they were made with a tiny handplane. And to translate for us Yanks, HSE functions a lot like our OSHA, with a little bit of the Consumer Safety Act blended in, not the same but similar. In USA Freud, Woodpecker, etc. make such bits. Lower RPM and 1/2-inch collet routers are required.
Interesting video, thanks. I have a number of carbide insert tools for my metal work machines, but so far not for my wood working machines. After getting a milling machine some years ago, I now try to use the milling machine instead of the router table where practical. I can run the milling cutter far slower and still get very good results. Cutting e.g., cherry on the table saw or shaping cherry on the router table can result in burn marks due to heat. On the milling machine at much slower cutting speeds I never get burn marks. I had not heard of this company before. Good to know they exist. I may have to give them a try. Dave.
I have a few smaller Amana bits that use inserts. Love them. Highly recommend. When I was a machinist, we used somr drill bits with 20 plus inserts. Had hundreds of different shapes, angles and finishes. Rowa of vending machines to store them in.
Hi Peter, Before you showed the clip I thought I've seen Keith ( Rag "n" bone Brown ) and you showed the clip. I do like the look of these router bits , good demonstration and great video catch you on the next one, Take care
Segmented cutters work great on almost all applications except one, end grain. If you notice while machining that the wood bounces slightly off the bit vs using an actual helical solid carbide where the bit is in constant contact. I recommend using Whiteside or CR Onsrud. When the bit absolutely has to perform, I always go to a new cutter and keep it aside for specific tasks.
Hi 👋, very interested router cutter, same principal, that is used on spindle moulders , it might be worth putting handles on your jig, better control when in feed and out feed, I have a dovetail router cutter for doing post/beam work, A Arunda, . Great review, looking forward to seeing more,
Mr Millard, I wish to thank you for this entairtaining video, as always. I would like to say that I disagree with the term "spiral" as the cutters "attack" the cut n a straight manner. I would think "segmented cutter head" would be more appropriate. the true spiral would cut in a shearing action. The advantage though, is that it does not engage the full thickness all at once which may result n a more controlled movement of the piece.
I use the 30mm x 55mm version of this from CSP Tooling and it is one of the most powerful yet smooth and quiet cutters I've ever used! Way less scary than using a panel cutter.
Very interesting Peter, what a beast that is, it seemed to do a great jobs though, a bit beyond my league anyway so not something I need to consider. Tbh many tools we use are potentially dangerous, we all have to decide what we're comfortable with and try to take sensible precautions ! You can't be too careful when trying something like that for the first time, on another channel I follow the guy repaired a vintage belt driven planer, the first time he started it up he did it from outside the shed, I think I might have done the same ! 😉
The pricing is astonishing! I would expect double that. Another advantage that if a blade chips, you can rotate only that, this more important in big, jointer blades though.
I saw thay but when I purchased a new head for my planer. It looked a bit scary to my eyes but I was curious, nice to see you made a video on it. I imagine in an industrial shaper that bit woud be awesome but I'm still hesitant on using it with a router.
I have a jointer with a spiral cutter head. After a year it started to leave a tiny ridge and investigating revealed one of the cutters was loose and a bit of trash was under it. I took it out, inspected it and the head and reinstalled it. I did not seat it perfectly and it cracked, broke into pieces remarkably easily. It just crumbled. The company had sent some spares and I replaced the broken one very carefully. If that had broken and I had not noticed, it could have been a disaster with pieces flying like bullets. Be careful.
When you say that the trend rotatip blades are as much as the cutter, you’re giving the impression of one blade instead of a pack of 10. Those bits are also double sided, so it’s equivalent to buying 20 router bits which works out a lot cheaper. I’ve been using the four sided router cutters for 30 years mainly leitz or trend
It is my understanding (and I could be wrong - I'm use to it) that "helical" blades have the edges of the cutters at a slight angle to the axis of the chassis. In the B roll of the planer it is obvious the cutters form a spiral as they are attached to blade holder chassis. Where as the router bit appears to my eye to have the cutting edges parallel to the axis (frankly, it's too short to attempt a true spiral e.g. helical, cutting pattern). I've recently splurged on some carbide up and down spiral router bits - with bearings and would think they would give a very nice cut (and have so far). At my age, I'll never wear them out. However; a commercial shop might get some serious pay back using this beast. Last year I converted my 6" jointer to a helical head - oh man, shoulda done that years ago.
Additionally, bits with straight blades can cause chatter, cause more burn marks, and tend to become dull quickly, especially the cheaper ones. If this bit is too intimidating, several brands offer spiral bit of about the same size. I highly recommend spiral bits. Less heat, less or no burn marks, smoother cutting, higher feed rates, time saved.
I bought a spiral compression flush trim bit this past year, and it was trying to throw the piece I was working on. I wonder if this bit would help. I also probably should have lowered the rpm except my router is single speed. I also should have used a template. I should probably learn how to make templates.
Yes, very interesting! As there are more cutting faces, like the planers, the cut should be finer and smoother. Thus, the stress should be lower, provided you limit the plung. If you have ever had a router bit into the work and breakup. Yes, I would be wearing a bullet-proof vest. The securing screws and torque must be critical to stop the breakup. It still is tempting!
I've been seeing these on AliExpress and have been really interested. I like the idea but not completely sold on the quality. Also, for end grain they probably do amazing
The best cutting heads for planers and the like have the square cutters tilted a bit, so they have a slicing cut through the wood, rather than the flat edge of the cutter hitting all at once. This router bit looks like the cutting edges are aligned so that the entire flat edge hits at once. Is that the case?
Definitely not to be used with a collet extension. My dad was the machinist for many years. His scary story was of using a milling machine a bit breaking flying across the workshop going through a 45 gallon oil drum and lodging into the wall. That bit had flown between two colleagues working on lathes 😬……
I recall years ago as an apprentice a joiner using a spindle moulder in the workshop, a cutter broke away, shot across the shop and went through three three quarter inch sheets of blockboard and embedded itself in the wall😱😱😱
As an apprentice we had to learn metall routing as well. One of the big bits (Schruppfräser) got cought/or the metall piece loose. There was a big bang, an on the other side of the hall about 30meters away, the broken of piece of the cutter got stuck in the speadcover of the drillpress. It nearly embedded itself surface flush within the nearly 1,5mm sheet metall cover. On its way the shrapnell passed several work mates. No harm done. But easy to imagine what it would have done to an Eye - protection gear wouldn't helped here.
I have the shaper version of that and it's truly wicked and deserving of extra respect. Freehanding with close-cut templates is not enough, i've found I need to extend my templates so that they touch the bearing at least an inch before the material piece that needs to be trimmed. Much safer that way.
The individual cutting faces mounted in a spiral pattern must put a lot less strain on the router, it's bearings etc and should also be quieter. But it looks like a cudgel...think I'll carry on with the noisy twin flute TCT stuff.
Revolutionary! I was surprised and impressed by how little burning occurred given the understandably conservative rate of feed. I assume you were not stung for excise duty, etc?
Hi Peter an interesting tool. I wonder if regarding legality (have not read the rules) if it would fall under some variation of "use only as intended" after all the bearing will by definition limit the chip load. also the insert that has just left the cut will also provide an amount of dept control. Having been in and around the metal working industry for almost 40 years, inserts do tend to stay in place provided that everything is maintained correctly . I would definitely have extra screws as you would want to discard any that are not perfect. oh and no loctite or the like correct torque is all you need.
I bought one of these recently and used it today for the first time. My router table has a Triton router in it, which I suspect has a bit more runout in the collet than your Festool! It’s a very long bit, so any collet runout is amplified at the top of the bit. Vibration didn’t seem too bad, but there was evidence of chatter in the finish. Next time I’ll follow your lead and run it at half speed.
Bourbon Moth Woodworking on RUclips had a similar video about router bits, and he really liked and recommended a compression bit. Have you ever tried one of those? Haven't seen too many people using either this or his recommended one, also guess because those are pretty expensive too. Would love to set up a workshop like this one day. Thank you for another great video!
The concept behind a chip-limiting cutter is to reduce the cutter’s “bite.” Anything intended for manual use has chip-limiting design incorporated; it’s mandatory. The bit you have is no exception.
Any router bit that you get your hands into is going to do serious damage. So I don't see how this bit would be any more dangerous than any other bit of similar size. However, if it cuts cleaner and with less effort, then it might actually be safer if it take less force to on the wood to keep the bit cutting flush against the template and so less likely that something will slip and your hands end up in the bit.
The staggered cutting edges require less power to remove the same amount of material as straight cutting edge. Conversely, the staggered cutting edge can remove more material with the same amount of power as needed with a straight cutting edge on a shallower cut. This is why this cutter geometry is often seen in cutters for machining steel. Also, helical staggered cutters generate less noise.
Interesting, I use insert tools on my hobby metal lathe and have never been scared of them. Probably because the speeds are low (workpiece rotating at 1000 rpm or less) and if a insert comes free it'll be thrown downwards into the lathe bed . At 12,000 to 24,000 rpm in a router with a loose insert travelling horizontally I'll pass on this.
Greetings, I always enjoy your take on things! I am interested in the adjustable speed switch on your router table. I followed the link, but cannot find one with a U.S. plug. Do you know if one exists? Thanks again for helping excellent videos and information.
Thank you. AUK is a brand from Woodworkers Workshop; to the best of my knowledge their motors are 240v, but I’m sure they’d be happy to advise if you contact them directly. 👍
Great Video Peter and thanks for taking the time to do it , Out of interest . I use a lot of the Titmans dual replaceable cutters ( like the Trend one you showed ) how did the helical bit feel compared to that blade ? especially doing template /copy work . Thanks Karl
As a complete amateur: I'm seeing two things. 1) the helical arrangement ensures that the small blades overlap when cutting so no material is missed between each of the teeth. 2) the title of the legislation suggests to me that the biggest issue would be using the motor end bearing and having a huge amount of spinning death projecting beyond the workpiece. This equally applies to any bit though, and not just these monsters. Especially as a diy user the incentive to buy one bit and use it for everything can easily lead to working thin material with a long cutter. That's clearly less finger friendly and so on. Question: how do you get your template curve so smooth and accurate? Is that just 20-40 years of practice or are there methods that would help us newbies?
Thanks. No, the ‘cutter projection’ in the title refers to how far the sharp bits project away from the body of the tooling, not the distance that they stick up out of the bench. Re the template, I used a large holesaw to make the curve, and a lot of sanding - though I am considering a simple handle cut-out template as a product, so watch this space. 👍
As a woodworker with limited legal expertise, I've reviewed the document and believe the cutter could fall under the regulation. Whether they're legal depends on construction details. If legal, they should be guaranteed by the manufacturer and highly doubt it's able to follow the standard from what I've seen. Would also be wary of random Chinese products. (ofc no legal advice here :P) So would stay away unless from a well known brand. Regarding the cutter quality, it's impressive. Excited to experience that quality in table mounted routers too, not just on the spindle moulder. (updated to mean table mounting)
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks for noting that, I'll update the text accordingly. Out of curiosity, have you tried using it handheld? I've personally used spiral bits and straight with replaceable blades, and they've all performed well, but never a spiraled with replaceable blades like that one and it sure looks more aggressive that my spiral bits been. I'm wondering if this type of bit might be more prone to grabbing or not?
Hi John, (if that's your real name! 😂) I'm probably more paranoid than most. I've seen inexpensive unbranded spinning blades on Amazon, and I've always run the other way. I only use Trend or CMT bits on the router, for me it's just not worth the risk.
@@Mikey__R Hey Mikey, no clue why you'd question if that's my real name. :P I totally agree with only buying brand names (not that I really got an option in a professional shop). Even then, I've had a cutter explode on me once. I think it must've been dropped or had a crack for somewhere else. Luckily, it was just a small bit and only part of it, but it still managed to hit my chest with enough force to pierced through thick work clothing and get stuck in my stomach, thankfully, it only pierced through a few millimeters, so no hospital needed, just a change of underwear. :P
@@_john_doe_ that definitely sounds scary! I'm worried now about the new CMT cutter I just bought, the plastic box has been cracked, probably in shipping. It doesn't look like the cutter got hit, but I don't know for sure.
Hey, what's the double-sided tape you use in this vid, and does it come off easily? I'm looking for something for exactly what you use it for. Sticky enough to use for template trimming, but not so sticky it becomes hard to peel off when you're done.
Links are in the video description, as always. 👍 Here you go:- Useful links: Browse the 10MW Everyday Workshop Essentials list here - amzn.to/3KLNIaM Visit my Amazon store here - 10MinuteAmazon.com 3M strong double-sided tape - amzn.to/3u2Ekqw ‘Everyday’ double-sided tape - amzn.to/3th16eL
Thanks! Honestly, I think it's unlikely - it's just the unbranded, direct from China nature of the tool that sparks the little bit of hesitance. If it was from a known brand then I'd probably feel more comfiortable about giving it a recommendation, but I've had no issues with it in the use it's had.🤷♂
Peter, why do you consider it only suitable for "bench" use? I have an OF1400 festool router and use it for a bunch of template work with a 1/2 shank bit and bearing or template guide. Also, for Peter or other readers, when is it "OK" to use the router to hog out material (say for a interior open segment of a template for a brace) instead of cutting out the majority first? I always cut then route the remainder but having a 1/2" and more powerful machine now I am curious since some people on the commercial Festool group talk about not doing gross removal with a jigsaw and only routing. Thanks as always for your wonderful content Peter.
The manufacturer says ‘not for hand held use’ so I’ll go along with that. Of course, I am not responsible for decisions you may choose to make. 🤷♂️ As for hogging out with a router vs clearing the waste with eg a jigsaw & drill, the benefit of using a router is that you don’t need to move the jig, though I have seen some folks use a jigsaw with the jig or template in place, which is a little sketchy to say the least. 👍
OSHA, you have an OSHA too!!! OSHA stands for( Occupational Safety and Health Administration) here in the States. Glad you specified that this bit was in your own shop. For fun bits like that, I think I'll be finding my starter pin to swing the bit into action.
This is a long overdue edge working router bit. Thanks for featuring it. Watching the handle cuts reminds me of my Carbatec spiral cutter, quiet and smooth. The typical straight blade is not nice on hardwoods. Edge jointing is the perfect use for this tool. I don't understand all the carry on
Should have proof read the above post a couple more times. I was talking about my spiral cut planer thicknesser. They aren't cheap but i would never go back to straight blades.
I have one of these. I'm in the states and use it in my hobby shop. I love it! I would never use this free hand . It is far too much metal to control in my opinion.
I don't understand why the bit is not linked, just because it may or may not be used in a commercial UK workshop. Yes, I found the shop website right away. Unfortunately, they only seem to sell imperial bits. Have you seen 8mm shank bits like this one? Is the total router bit size the only reason it is not recommended for hand held routers or is there another reason for it?
As I explain in the video, the bit isn't linked to because I don't want this video to be regarded as a recommendation or in any way promoting something that isn't 100% compliant with Health and Safety Regulations. As an adult hobby woodworker, or someone residing in another country where UK Health & Safety Regulations don't apply, then you can use your own judgement; the bits are widely available and easy enough to find in metric and imperial sizes. But in all seriousness, if you don't understand why a bit like this isn't available in an 8mm shank or why it isn't recommended for hand-held use, then you really shouldn't be going anywhere near it. Stick with UK-sourced brands that state compliance with BS EN 847-1 - the Trend bits that I mention, for example. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop As far as I understand your video, you don't understand the regulation itself 100%, hence you are not even sure if it applies. That is one of the reasons I don't understand why you have not linked the bit. The other reason, as you said yourself: It just does not apply for home users and probably for other countries. I just don't get the way of thinking "I don't link it, but here is the name of the shop where you can get it!". It's nice to know that the bits are widely available and easy to find. Maybe I am using the wrong search terms and shops. I have not seen such a bit before and do have trouble finding metric sizes. And no I do not understand why it's or to be more precise "something like it" is not available in 8mm or could be used in a handheld router. For me that information would have been more helpful than the presentation of general (flush trimming) router bits. That part I did know before. I imagined something like the blade insert trend (?) bit of your video. But as a double bearing. I know that there are 8mm bits of that type. Have not seen double bearing on them though. Also, I was wondering why those actually have long blades all the time and are not equipped with those small blades. Furthermore, a longer (insert blade) trimming bit with bearing on the shaft, which could be used for drilling into the wood would be nice as well - have not seen that either. But as I said: maybe it's just me, the shops I know and search terms I use...
That bit looks mean. With all the benefits you mentioned I think this would work perfectly for a commercial shop, or anywhere where it would get a lot of use. I hope the screws stay tight.
Yes, and I have seen them used on electric guitar bodies, I've not used one personally though. I would guess they'd be great in a production environment, where your Saturday staff could be trusted to not sand divots into the body.
The carbide cutters are made to cut Hard metals, and i have seen them chop off a 100thou cut in a pass on hard steel, then send red hot chips flying. That wood is no where close to as hard as steel is like a 4140 stressproof. You can crank up the speed and feed rate, just slow down on the last pass.
I've seen them advertised on the inter web and knew they were Chinese so didn't look any further. Rather novel idea and would expect excellent cut quality if they were of good quality. However, flying carbide blades in the shop is something to consider, nod to the spin up test!!
Hi Peter, I love your videos and have learned a lot from you. On a separate subject, I’m about to purchase a quiet Hyundai oil free air compressor for my home woodwork shop to run air nailers, staplers and for paint spraying. I’m happy with my choice of air compressor but a bit bewildered by the wide selection of air nailers, ranging in price from tens to hundreds of pounds. I know you are always frugal in your choice of tools, always looking for value/performance at an affordable price point. Can you recommend a good brand of air nailers at a reasonable price? Steve
Thanks! Try this one - My cheap nailer and compressor, ruclips.net/video/eJo3JMkv3JE/видео.html and this one Nailer and Stapler Basics [video 485], ruclips.net/video/nVta5PEetzE/видео.html FWIW my two most used nailers are cheap Silverline ones, and they work great. 👍
Thanks Peter, very helpful. I presume with an oil free compressor you need to add an oiler to the air tool line. What diameter air hoses do you use and do they typically come complete with the end connectors for both the nailer and the compressor? From where would source them (and an oiler)? Steve
You get a much better idea of the sound difference of these helical bits on a router than a thicknesser being exposed, sounds like an air-raid siren on the spin down 😂 I don't really see it being any more dangerous than any other replacable blade bit, as long as everything is torqued down correcly (and it's a quality tool!) it shouldn't be any worse.
I'm always scared of using no-name router bits, especially bigger ones. And for the price of this one you can actually get 2 CMT compression flush trim bits from xtreme series (7/8/906.41B), which are very nice.
Aaaah! I saw the thumbnail and it reminded me of something - it was a disassembled planer I saw once. For the planer, the argument was actually noise - what's your opinion Peter, does it make less noise than your usual bit?
I was once told in the 90’s i was not allowed to use a broom that had a snapped off top end of about 3”. The reason? ‘I could trip over and the handle could impale my heart’ An actual thing that actually happened. 🤷🏻♀️👀
They have been hogging metals from aluminum to all the carbon steels for over 15 years with bits like this. Wood is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.
I go through the whole video explaining why I'm not linking to it, and I tell you where I bought mine from at around the 9:30 mark, and how easy it is to search for. 👍
I do all my woodworking while hiding under the bench, it's the only way to be truly safe. (until I hit my head on the underside of the bench getting out again)
Obvious advantage with any spiral cutter,is,the,minimised load on the tool motor because less of the cutting blade is ever in contact with the work surface
A lot of issue raised in this video. Is that router bit legal? Working alone in a private (non commercial) workshop, the relevant Law really doesn’t apply. In a commercial workshop, the HSE does come into play. In my experience, few tools are themselves illegal - although your position would be weakened if you had bought tools for others to use which do not carry the relevant British Standard. I have copied and paste at the end the headline page on that for people with insomnia to read. So your tool may or may not carry that standard; in itself neither way makes it legal or illegal. Where the Law comes into play is the training for its use and the risks associated with its use. For each task (from washing the mugs to spindle Moulder) the employer is required to produce a Site Specific Risk Assessment (SSRA) with that being readily available for all to read. Plus, if any chemical is used (from washing up liquid to adhesives), the employer must produce a document outlining the properties and risk of that chemical in line with the COSHH regulations. That SSRA will cover what training the operator must have gone through and exactly how the task is to be carried out, with what PPE, chemicals etc. In the case of washing up (I’ve done those), the SSRA is quite simple; for complex, high risk tasks using chemicals, the COSHH and SSRA are going to be equally complex. All of this is for the health and safety of the employees. I used to tell my managers that nobody had a greater responsibility than to ensure their workers were safe and went home as healthy as when they came in. The tabloids like to talk about ‘elf and safety’ to spark off indignation. Well, I have yet to find such a story which is actually accurately reported. I don’t forget that the whole H&S culture along with the HSE was borne out of the Flixborough disaster where people died as a result of working practices which risked, and cost them, their lives. So, is this bit legal in a private, no-employee, workshop? I can’t see why not. Is this bit safe to use in that private workshop? I don’t know. The British Standard would give me some assurance but, shock, even these have been counterfeited. Does made in China mean it’s bad, good or indifferent? Not by itself. Many of the tools we buy are either made in China or using tools made in China. In my experience, China will make anything to whatever standards the buyer wants. If the buyer wants throwaway, then China will make it. Trusted organisations such as Axminster Tools buy a lot from China. I’m happy to take it that Axminster define the quality they want and quality check the conformity. I have bought many measuring tools made on China with the Veiko brand and I’m very happy with quality and accuracy. When compared to, say, Woodpecker, the same accuracy at a fraction of the price. Given that the overwhelming majority of the costs in making a square or a ruler are the aluminium (global resource) and the CNC (global product) I don’t know how that price difference can be justified other than they charge it because people still buy it. A spindle Moulder is not illegal. Without the proper training and SSRA, the employer would be breaking the law if it were used in a commercial shop. A bucket, detergent and sponge are not illegal. Without the proper training and SSRA, using them to clean the outside windows 100ft in the air, would be be. Part 1 - BS ENs for woodworking machines BS EN 847-1 Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Milling tools, circular saw blades BS EN 847-2 Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Requirements for the shank of shank-mounted milling tools. BS EN 847-3 Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Clamping devices BS EN 848-1 Safety of Woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Single spindle vertical moulding machines BS EN 848-2 Safety of woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Single spindle hand fed/integrated fed routing machines. BS EN 848-3 Safety of Woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Numerically controlled (NC) boring and routing machines. BS EN 859 Safety of Woodworking Machines - Hand fed surface planning machines BS EN 860 Safety of Woodworking machines. One side thickness planing machines. BS EN 861 Safety of Woodworking machines. Surface planing and thicknessing machines. BS EN 940 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Combined Woodworking Machines. BS EN 1218-1 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Single & tenoning machines with sliding table. BS EN 1218-2 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Double end tenoning and/or profiling machines fed by chain or chains BS EN 1218-3 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Hand fed tenoning machines with sliding table for cutting structural timbers BS EN 1218-4 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Edge banding machines fed by chain(s) BS EN 1218-5 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. One side profiling machined with fixed table and feed rollers or fed by chain. BS EN 1807-1 Safety of Woodworking machines. Band sawing machines. Table band-saws and band re-saws. BS EN 1807-2 Safety of Woodworking machines. Band sawing machines. Log sawing machines. BS EN 1870-3 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Down cutting cross-cut saws and dual purpose down cutting cross-cut saws/circular saw benches BS EN 1870-4 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Multiblade rip sawing machines with manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-5 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular sawbenches/up cutting cross-cut sawing machines. BS EN 1870-6 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular sawing machines for firewood and dual purpose circular sawing machines for firewood/ circular saw benches with manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-7 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Single blade log sawing machines with integrated feed table and manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-8 Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Single blade edging circular rip sawing machines with power driven saw unit and manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-9 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular Sawing Machines. Double blade circular sawing machines for cross-cutting with integrated feed and with manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-10 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular Sawing Machines. Single blade automatic and semi-automatic up-cutting cross-cut sawing machines. BS EN 1870-11 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Semi-automatic and automatic horizontal cross-cut sawing machines with one saw unit (radial arm saws) BS EN 1870-12 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Pendulum cross-cut sawing machines. BS EN 1870-13 Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Horizontal beam panel sawing machines BS EN 1870-14 Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Vertical panel sawing machines. BS EN 1870-15 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Multiblade cross-cut sawing machines with integrated feed of the workpiece and manual loading and/or unloading. BS EN 1870-16 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Double mitre sawing machines for V-cutting. BS EN 1870-17 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Manual horizon cutting cross-cut sawing machines with one saw unit (manual radial arm saws). BS EN 1870-18 Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Dimension saws BS EN 1870-19 Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular saw benches (with and without sliding table) and building site saws. BS EN 12750 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Four sided moulding machines Part 2 - General relevant BS ENs and BSs BS 4163 Health and Safety for design and technology in schools and similar establishments. Code of practice BS EN 12779 Safety of Woodworking Machines. Chip and dust extraction systems with fixed installation. Safety related performances and safety requirements. BS EN 13850 Safety of machinery - Emergency Stop - principles of design BS EN ISO 13857 Safety of machinery - Safety distances to prevent hazard zones being reached by upper and lower limbs BS EN 144916 Dust explosion venting protective systems BS EN 1037 Safety of machinery - Prevention of unexpected start-up
@@riba2233 any tool, just as any toy, has to be safe for its purpose. You see Trading Standards do raids for unsafe electric scooters and then take the importer or whoever to Court. If the bit were to cause an accident (eg explode), then the HSE would ask the employer what did they do to ensure that the bit was made properly eg to the British standard. If the employer could not show due diligence then the HSE may well take the employer to Court. They would also, I presume, go after the importer but that would be difficult if there was no UK importer. It’s in that sense that I would describe the bit as not legal
@@theofarmmanager267 ok but I am wondering what could specifically be wrong with this exact bit, why are we talking about the safety of it compared to every other tool accessory which we use daily
@@riba2233 I can only think it is because it is quite large; has pieces that could lessen; is usually quite exposed when working. Those issues increase the risk to the user and therefore the question of whether it is safe (would meet the H&S Acts; failure to do so would infer its illegality) is probably enhanced. Compared to the blades in my planer, it’s a small cutting tool but I can see something of why people might be more concerned. Would I use one? Would I think it’s safe to use? I would look at the certification if I didn’t know the manufacturer
great bit. the only concern i would have is that its a no name import job . if it was made by one of the big name manufactures i would trust it a lot more. those kinds of insert cutters give amazing finish and tear out less cuts
@@10MinuteWorkshop I’d be concerned with each cutter just being retained with a single fastener. The other router bit with replaceable blades (the one shown at least) had multiple. That potential single point failure in an exposed bit could be more of an issue than with a planer or jointer where the shaft and cutters are with in the machine. If designed properly with good quality fasteners, it should be ok, but fasteners can be very suspect and poor quality if not from a reputable supplier. Even then counterfeit fasteners are a real problem in some industries. It was in shipbuilding which I was involved with.
I don't see why this is any more dangerous than any other router bit? Replaceable cutting edges have been around for decades. What you didn't mention was how an expensive router bit can be ruined by a nicked edge, in this case you can just turn the damaged edge out of the way?
Not a true helix bit as it is not shearing the material at an angle less than 90 degrees, so potentially will suffer from tear out the same as a non-spiral bit. Stiil good if you get a knick though and can rotate the offending edge.
Love the spinup test, but you also need to figure out a way to test it under load -- that seems the most likely moment for one of those things to chip off, etc. I personally recommend using a tough leather shop apron, as well as a polycarbonate face shield, rather than just safety glasses. This should offer considerably more protection against any kind of catastrophic failure for something like this -- e.g., one of the squares shatters and flies off in bits and piece at high speeds. ANY power tool can be dangerous, but, in increasing order: Drill Press Miter Saw Table Saw Planer Jointer Band Saw Router Hand-held Angle Grinder (this can vary *_a lot_* with the head you're putting onto it. There is an insane attachment that is basically a chain saw disk that I think you're an idiot to use) Is about how I'd rank them. The last two are particularly dangerous because they operate at much higher speeds, so are even more likely to grab something faster than you'd expect and toss it in some random direction -- sometimes pulling your hand with it into a danger zone. The Jointer and the Band Saw *§* are easier to protect yourself against -- but peeps do stupid things failing to consider what is happening with the wood and the nature of the cut. This is where understanding the setup of all the tools is very important -- every one of them can grab a work piece and do something unexpected with it that can have a body-damaging level of force. Yes, even the drill press can do this, by binding with the work piece and spinning it, which can break fingers and hands and even arm bones if the piece is not properly clamped in place. ============= *§* There is a video of a popular woodworking youtuber who self-admittedly got sloppy, and almost suffered a much more serious event when his bandsaw grabbed something he was working on and threw it around, bouncing off the bandsaw itself and then hitting him in the head. Thanks to the fact that it was a deflection, it had lost much if its power, but he acked he had a serious lump. *He was honest enough to detail it, along with the footage of the event, just to make people think about the danger of getting careless and complacent when doing a repeated activity.*
![Tricky Tracksaw Cuts [video 460]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ybSSZ5R31aI/mqdefault.jpg)
Love the spin up test at the end. Thanks for the video, always a pleasure to watch.
Thanks! 👍
Limited projection tooling refers to how far a cutter is reasonably considered safe to project clear of the cutter mount/body. It's different for different cutter types. Flush/straight blades can be as little as 1 - 1.3mm to be "safe". Moulding cutters allow for more for obvious reasons but, the deepest part of the shaped cutter should still stand off no more than 1mm or so.
The bit you're using complies no problem with that. Look at the part the carbide cutter seats in (not the valleys) and how the leadingblade edge stands off. It's kosher.
More relevant might be bs en 847 - 2 on shank mounts specifically but even then, there's nothing about your bit that shouts non compliance.
It's just a big bit. I've got a giant 52mm long by 28mm diacompression bit which should come with a warning - but doesn't an is readily available from Rutlands! I use it hand held too - video evidence of it in fact😂
Like the hsa state - and it goes as much for the home or commercial operator - competence and confidence is key. Don't operate something you feel is unsafe or beyond your current skill.
To that end, these giant router bits, although legal, should carry a warning "only for experienced operators" or something. A rooky could come unstuck.
One last thing in case anyone actually reads this: run these large heavy bits on equally heavyduty routers. 1800w +. They'll kill the electronic speed controllers on underpowered machines.
👍
Although I don't want to get into an argument about it, I personally don't think it's kosher. The carbide appears to be projecting more than 1.1mm from the body of the cutter which is the regulation for all router cutters over 16mm in diameter, as well as the gullet in front of the cutter being too large.
Thank you for this in-depth information. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for doing our own risk assessments and continue to until the job is finished or you stop. The knowledge to do that assessment, as you say, can be the problem. Knowledge such as cutting speeds of the timer, etc.
Thank you!
That sure looks like a medieval weapon of some sort 😯. Thanks for a great video!
as soon as I saw it, only one name came to mind "peter molyneux"
Hello Peter, I have one of these bits, sourced from a local supplier (Australia). I have used it in my Jet Spindle Moulder and in a hand held Triton Router. It made short work of cleaning up a Redgum table top.
Don't worry, the first time I spun it up, I hid below the table top of my SM.
Can you share the supplier please .. also in Australia and looking for a templating bit
Hi Peter! Thanks for showing and testing this router bit. I had to smile, seeing you hiding under the bench for the first spinning test. I thought I'd be the only one, doing things like this - better safe than sorry.
The results were promising and I will order the bit for my router table (OK, I'm a dangerseeker, I also love dado-stacks 😉).
When I found their webshop, I was even tempted, to buy a helical cutterhead for my Triton thickness planer, however the Triton is not on their large list (yet?).
Thank you once more for this interesting find.
Cheers from Germany
Andreas
As a time served wood machinist , helical heads are great and, the torque on the torx machine screws that hold the scribing knives always overtighten during use. I have never had one fall out.
I didnt know they existed for router flush trim and, now i am going to get one for sure!
How annoying is it when you flush trim a load of formica-faced board and, within about 20metres the knife of the bit has a hollow worn into it?
Well this solve the problem.
And, the finish you got on the oak is unbeatable.
Big fan, thanks for your insight and content.
I'm a big fan and really enjoy your insight and content.
Thank you! 👍
Key insight indeed. Like bike pedals that screw as you pedal, these have threads oriented so they screw in as it spins. That makes sense and means the cutting squares won't fly off like shrapnel!
pay twice as much, get four times as much benefit-----seems like a winner to me! rick
One way to tell if your cutting tool is sharp is that it produces tiny shavings not dust. I get those with my new saw blades too. The shavings look like they were made with a tiny handplane. And to translate for us Yanks, HSE functions a lot like our OSHA, with a little bit of the Consumer Safety Act blended in, not the same but similar. In USA Freud, Woodpecker, etc. make such bits. Lower RPM and 1/2-inch collet routers are required.
Interesting video, thanks.
I have a number of carbide insert tools for my metal work machines, but so far not for my wood working machines.
After getting a milling machine some years ago, I now try to use the milling machine instead of the router table where practical. I can run the milling cutter far slower and still get very good results. Cutting e.g., cherry on the table saw or shaping cherry on the router table can result in burn marks due to heat. On the milling machine at much slower cutting speeds I never get burn marks.
I had not heard of this company before. Good to know they exist. I may have to give them a try.
Dave.
I have a few smaller Amana bits that use inserts. Love them. Highly recommend. When I was a machinist, we used somr drill bits with 20 plus inserts. Had hundreds of different shapes, angles and finishes. Rowa of vending machines to store them in.
Hi Peter, Before you showed the clip I thought I've seen Keith ( Rag "n" bone Brown ) and you showed the clip. I do like the look of these router bits , good demonstration and great video catch you on the next one, Take care
Segmented cutters work great on almost all applications except one, end grain. If you notice while machining that the wood bounces slightly off the bit vs using an actual helical solid carbide where the bit is in constant contact. I recommend using Whiteside or CR Onsrud. When the bit absolutely has to perform, I always go to a new cutter and keep it aside for specific tasks.
I've been waiting for you to show this one. Thanks!
Hi 👋, very interested router cutter, same principal, that is used on spindle moulders , it might be worth putting handles on your jig, better control when in feed and out feed, I have a dovetail router cutter for doing post/beam work, A Arunda, .
Great review, looking forward to seeing more,
Great video definitely would like to look into one of these. Thanks for sharing
Mr Millard, I wish to thank you for this entairtaining video, as always. I would like to say that I disagree with the term "spiral" as the cutters "attack" the cut n a straight manner. I would think "segmented cutter head" would be more appropriate. the true spiral would cut in a shearing action. The advantage though, is that it does not engage the full thickness all at once which may result n a more controlled movement of the piece.
love the clamps... they do look a little in excess! 😉 great vid and thanks...
I use the 30mm x 55mm version of this from CSP Tooling and it is one of the most powerful yet smooth and quiet cutters I've ever used! Way less scary than using a panel cutter.
Very interesting Peter, what a beast that is, it seemed to do a great jobs though, a bit beyond my league anyway so not something I need to consider.
Tbh many tools we use are potentially dangerous, we all have to decide what we're comfortable with and try to take sensible precautions !
You can't be too careful when trying something like that for the first time, on another channel I follow the guy repaired a vintage belt driven planer, the first time he started it up he did it from outside the shed, I think I might have done the same ! 😉
The pricing is astonishing! I would expect double that. Another advantage that if a blade chips, you can rotate only that, this more important in big, jointer blades though.
I saw thay but when I purchased a new head for my planer. It looked a bit scary to my eyes but I was curious, nice to see you made a video on it.
I imagine in an industrial shaper that bit woud be awesome but I'm still hesitant on using it with a router.
I have a jointer with a spiral cutter head. After a year it started to leave a tiny ridge and investigating revealed one of the cutters was loose and a bit of trash was under it. I took it out, inspected it and the head and reinstalled it. I did not seat it perfectly and it cracked, broke into pieces remarkably easily. It just crumbled. The company had sent some spares and I replaced the broken one very carefully. If that had broken and I had not noticed, it could have been a disaster with pieces flying like bullets. Be careful.
Great vid. Not so sure about the square cutter style, but the two-replacable blade cutters from CMT (via Scott + Sargent) are my go-to flush trimers.
Really cool and I would have considered this bit if I wasn’t already invested in a similar-sized compression bit from Whiteside.
When you say that the trend rotatip blades are as much as the cutter, you’re giving the impression of one blade instead of a pack of 10. Those bits are also double sided, so it’s equivalent to buying 20 router bits which works out a lot cheaper. I’ve been using the four sided router cutters for 30 years mainly leitz or trend
Thank you, that wasn’t clear from the site I visited. I’ll add that to the description. 👍
It is my understanding (and I could be wrong - I'm use to it) that "helical" blades have the edges of the cutters at a slight angle to the axis of the chassis. In the B roll of the planer it is obvious the cutters form a spiral as they are attached to blade holder chassis. Where as the router bit appears to my eye to have the cutting edges parallel to the axis (frankly, it's too short to attempt a true spiral e.g. helical, cutting pattern).
I've recently splurged on some carbide up and down spiral router bits - with bearings and would think they would give a very nice cut (and have so far). At my age, I'll never wear them out. However; a commercial shop might get some serious pay back using this beast. Last year I converted my 6" jointer to a helical head - oh man, shoulda done that years ago.
Additionally, bits with straight blades can cause chatter, cause more burn marks, and tend to become dull quickly, especially the cheaper ones. If this bit is too intimidating, several brands offer spiral bit of about the same size. I highly recommend spiral bits. Less heat, less or no burn marks, smoother cutting, higher feed rates, time saved.
I bought a spiral compression flush trim bit this past year, and it was trying to throw the piece I was working on. I wonder if this bit would help. I also probably should have lowered the rpm except my router is single speed. I also should have used a template. I should probably learn how to make templates.
Haha I’ve been wanting one of these. Oddly enough, my scariest looking bit actually feels the safest of all my bits. Even the noise is scary
Yes, very interesting! As there are more cutting faces, like the planers, the cut should be finer and smoother. Thus, the stress should be lower, provided you limit the plung. If you have ever had a router bit into the work and breakup. Yes, I would be wearing a bullet-proof vest. The securing screws and torque must be critical to stop the breakup. It still is tempting!
I recently bought a compression flush trim and was absolutely amazed and if I had seen this bit,maybe would have bought one instead
I've been seeing these on AliExpress and have been really interested. I like the idea but not completely sold on the quality. Also, for end grain they probably do amazing
The best cutting heads for planers and the like have the square cutters tilted a bit, so they have a slicing cut through the wood, rather than the flat edge of the cutter hitting all at once. This router bit looks like the cutting edges are aligned so that the entire flat edge hits at once. Is that the case?
Definitely not to be used with a collet extension.
My dad was the machinist for many years. His scary story was of using a milling machine a bit breaking flying across the workshop going through a 45 gallon oil drum and lodging into the wall. That bit had flown between two colleagues working on lathes 😬……
I recall years ago as an apprentice a joiner using a spindle moulder in the workshop, a cutter broke away, shot across the shop and went through three three quarter inch sheets of blockboard and embedded itself in the wall😱😱😱
@@leecromer3289 spindle moulder....one of the few machines that scares the living daylights out of me!
As an apprentice we had to learn metall routing as well. One of the big bits (Schruppfräser) got cought/or the metall piece loose. There was a big bang, an on the other side of the hall about 30meters away, the broken of piece of the cutter got stuck in the speadcover of the drillpress. It nearly embedded itself surface flush within the nearly 1,5mm sheet metall cover. On its way the shrapnell passed several work mates. No harm done. But easy to imagine what it would have done to an Eye - protection gear wouldn't helped here.
I have the shaper version of that and it's truly wicked and deserving of extra respect. Freehanding with close-cut templates is not enough, i've found I need to extend my templates so that they touch the bearing at least an inch before the material piece that needs to be trimmed. Much safer that way.
This looks like something that more belongs on a shaper due to the mass of the cutter. For routers I’d think only the 3+ HP ones in a table.
The individual cutting faces mounted in a spiral pattern must put a lot less strain on the router, it's bearings etc and should also be quieter.
But it looks like a cudgel...think I'll carry on with the noisy twin flute TCT stuff.
Revolutionary! I was surprised and impressed by how little burning occurred given the understandably conservative rate of feed.
I assume you were not stung for excise duty, etc?
Thanks! No, came straight though without any additional charges. 👍
Hi Peter an interesting tool. I wonder if regarding legality (have not read the rules) if it would fall under some variation of "use only as intended"
after all the bearing will by definition limit the chip load. also the insert that has just left the cut will also provide an amount of dept control.
Having been in and around the metal working industry for almost 40 years, inserts do tend to stay in place provided that everything is maintained
correctly . I would definitely have extra screws as you would want to discard any that are not perfect. oh and no loctite or the like
correct torque is all you need.
Nice wood and film work. Interesting routerbit.
I bought one of these recently and used it today for the first time. My router table has a Triton router in it, which I suspect has a bit more runout in the collet than your Festool! It’s a very long bit, so any collet runout is amplified at the top of the bit. Vibration didn’t seem too bad, but there was evidence of chatter in the finish. Next time I’ll follow your lead and run it at half speed.
Thanks. Just FYI the router bench is an AUK motor in a Jessem lift, so pretty solid. 👍
Bourbon Moth Woodworking on RUclips had a similar video about router bits, and he really liked and recommended a compression bit. Have you ever tried one of those? Haven't seen too many people using either this or his recommended one, also guess because those are pretty expensive too. Would love to set up a workshop like this one day. Thank you for another great video!
The concept behind a chip-limiting cutter is to reduce the cutter’s “bite.” Anything intended for manual use has chip-limiting design incorporated; it’s mandatory. The bit you have is no exception.
Any router bit that you get your hands into is going to do serious damage. So I don't see how this bit would be any more dangerous than any other bit of similar size. However, if it cuts cleaner and with less effort, then it might actually be safer if it take less force to on the wood to keep the bit cutting flush against the template and so less likely that something will slip and your hands end up in the bit.
The staggered cutting edges require less power to remove the same amount of material as straight cutting edge. Conversely, the staggered cutting edge can remove more material with the same amount of power as needed with a straight cutting edge on a shallower cut.
This is why this cutter geometry is often seen in cutters for machining steel.
Also, helical staggered cutters generate less noise.
Interesting, I use insert tools on my hobby metal lathe and have never been scared of them. Probably because the speeds are low (workpiece rotating at 1000 rpm or less) and if a insert comes free it'll be thrown downwards into the lathe bed .
At 12,000 to 24,000 rpm in a router with a loose insert travelling horizontally I'll pass on this.
Greetings, I always enjoy your take on things! I am interested in the adjustable speed switch on your router table. I followed the link, but cannot find one with a U.S. plug. Do you know if one exists? Thanks again for helping excellent videos and information.
Thank you. AUK is a brand from Woodworkers Workshop; to the best of my knowledge their motors are 240v, but I’m sure they’d be happy to advise if you contact them directly. 👍
Great Video Peter and thanks for taking the time to do it , Out of interest . I use a lot of the Titmans dual replaceable cutters ( like the Trend one you showed ) how did the helical bit feel compared to that blade ? especially doing template /copy work . Thanks Karl
Thanks! It felt great TBH - no issues with it at all, and a really top quality finish straight off the cutter. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks for the prompt reply Peter, good to know . rather tempted !
Why not going climbcut with a bit like this? I would expect it to kick less than straight bits, because each bite is smaller.
As a complete amateur: I'm seeing two things. 1) the helical arrangement ensures that the small blades overlap when cutting so no material is missed between each of the teeth. 2) the title of the legislation suggests to me that the biggest issue would be using the motor end bearing and having a huge amount of spinning death projecting beyond the workpiece. This equally applies to any bit though, and not just these monsters. Especially as a diy user the incentive to buy one bit and use it for everything can easily lead to working thin material with a long cutter. That's clearly less finger friendly and so on.
Question: how do you get your template curve so smooth and accurate? Is that just 20-40 years of practice or are there methods that would help us newbies?
Thanks. No, the ‘cutter projection’ in the title refers to how far the sharp bits project away from the body of the tooling, not the distance that they stick up out of the bench. Re the template, I used a large holesaw to make the curve, and a lot of sanding - though I am considering a simple handle cut-out template as a product, so watch this space. 👍
That's a very scary looking bit, but great value @£81 looked a great cut too would like to see that catch on a trench cut............................
As a woodworker with limited legal expertise, I've reviewed the document and believe the cutter could fall under the regulation. Whether they're legal depends on construction details. If legal, they should be guaranteed by the manufacturer and highly doubt it's able to follow the standard from what I've seen. Would also be wary of random Chinese products. (ofc no legal advice here :P) So would stay away unless from a well known brand. Regarding the cutter quality, it's impressive. Excited to experience that quality in table mounted routers too, not just on the spindle moulder. (updated to mean table mounting)
To clarify, these are absolutely not for handheld use! Strictly for table-mounted routers and milling motors. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thanks for noting that, I'll update the text accordingly. Out of curiosity, have you tried using it handheld? I've personally used spiral bits and straight with replaceable blades, and they've all performed well, but never a spiraled with replaceable blades like that one and it sure looks more aggressive that my spiral bits been. I'm wondering if this type of bit might be more prone to grabbing or not?
Hi John, (if that's your real name! 😂) I'm probably more paranoid than most. I've seen inexpensive unbranded spinning blades on Amazon, and I've always run the other way. I only use Trend or CMT bits on the router, for me it's just not worth the risk.
@@Mikey__R Hey Mikey, no clue why you'd question if that's my real name. :P
I totally agree with only buying brand names (not that I really got an option in a professional shop). Even then, I've had a cutter explode on me once. I think it must've been dropped or had a crack for somewhere else. Luckily, it was just a small bit and only part of it, but it still managed to hit my chest with enough force to pierced through thick work clothing and get stuck in my stomach, thankfully, it only pierced through a few millimeters, so no hospital needed, just a change of underwear. :P
@@_john_doe_ that definitely sounds scary! I'm worried now about the new CMT cutter I just bought, the plastic box has been cracked, probably in shipping. It doesn't look like the cutter got hit, but I don't know for sure.
Hey, what's the double-sided tape you use in this vid, and does it come off easily? I'm looking for something for exactly what you use it for. Sticky enough to use for template trimming, but not so sticky it becomes hard to peel off when you're done.
Links are in the video description, as always. 👍 Here you go:-
Useful links:
Browse the 10MW Everyday Workshop Essentials list here - amzn.to/3KLNIaM
Visit my Amazon store here - 10MinuteAmazon.com
3M strong double-sided tape - amzn.to/3u2Ekqw
‘Everyday’ double-sided tape - amzn.to/3th16eL
Great camera work on the cuts 👍
Thanks 👍
You can also get bearing compression bit.
That would be my choice👍
Great conversation, any thoughts on the possibility of one of those replacement bits chipping off during use?
Thanks! Honestly, I think it's unlikely - it's just the unbranded, direct from China nature of the tool that sparks the little bit of hesitance. If it was from a known brand then I'd probably feel more comfiortable about giving it a recommendation, but I've had no issues with it in the use it's had.🤷♂
Peter, why do you consider it only suitable for "bench" use?
I have an OF1400 festool router and use it for a bunch of template work with a 1/2 shank bit and bearing or template guide.
Also, for Peter or other readers, when is it "OK" to use the router to hog out material (say for a interior open segment of a template for a brace) instead of cutting out the majority first?
I always cut then route the remainder but having a 1/2" and more powerful machine now I am curious since some people on the commercial Festool group talk about not doing gross removal with a jigsaw and only routing.
Thanks as always for your wonderful content Peter.
The manufacturer says ‘not for hand held use’ so I’ll go along with that. Of course, I am not responsible for decisions you may choose to make. 🤷♂️ As for hogging out with a router vs clearing the waste with eg a jigsaw & drill, the benefit of using a router is that you don’t need to move the jig, though I have seen some folks use a jigsaw with the jig or template in place, which is a little sketchy to say the least. 👍
OSHA, you have an OSHA too!!! OSHA stands for( Occupational Safety and Health Administration) here in the States. Glad you specified that this bit was in your own shop. For fun bits like that, I think I'll be finding my starter pin to swing the bit into action.
Fantastic review, Peter! Thanks! 😃
Really impressive bit indeed!!!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks! You too! 👍
This is a long overdue edge working router bit. Thanks for featuring it.
Watching the handle cuts reminds me of my Carbatec spiral cutter, quiet and smooth.
The typical straight blade is not nice on hardwoods.
Edge jointing is the perfect use for this tool.
I don't understand all the carry on
Should have proof read the above post a couple more times.
I was talking about my spiral cut planer thicknesser. They aren't cheap but i would never go back to straight blades.
I just got one of these with an 80mm cut. Cutting 3” oak on a curve and the thing snagged, split the timber and bent the shaft. Scary moment 😫
😬👍
love that first turn-on :)
It makes nice shavings rather than dust
It does! 👍
The defensive spin up routine was both sensible and amusing.😉👍
Thanks Norman! I thought it was worthwhile, either way... 👍
If one needs legal guidance on every little option like router bits to use, one has bigger problems than choosing which router bits to use.
I have one of these. I'm in the states and use it in my hobby shop. I love it! I would never use this free hand . It is far too much metal to control in my opinion.
I don't understand why the bit is not linked, just because it may or may not be used in a commercial UK workshop. Yes, I found the shop website right away. Unfortunately, they only seem to sell imperial bits. Have you seen 8mm shank bits like this one? Is the total router bit size the only reason it is not recommended for hand held routers or is there another reason for it?
As I explain in the video, the bit isn't linked to because I don't want this video to be regarded as a recommendation or in any way promoting something that isn't 100% compliant with Health and Safety Regulations. As an adult hobby woodworker, or someone residing in another country where UK Health & Safety Regulations don't apply, then you can use your own judgement; the bits are widely available and easy enough to find in metric and imperial sizes. But in all seriousness, if you don't understand why a bit like this isn't available in an 8mm shank or why it isn't recommended for hand-held use, then you really shouldn't be going anywhere near it. Stick with UK-sourced brands that state compliance with BS EN 847-1 - the Trend bits that I mention, for example. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop As far as I understand your video, you don't understand the regulation itself 100%, hence you are not even sure if it applies. That is one of the reasons I don't understand why you have not linked the bit. The other reason, as you said yourself: It just does not apply for home users and probably for other countries. I just don't get the way of thinking "I don't link it, but here is the name of the shop where you can get it!".
It's nice to know that the bits are widely available and easy to find. Maybe I am using the wrong search terms and shops. I have not seen such a bit before and do have trouble finding metric sizes.
And no I do not understand why it's or to be more precise "something like it" is not available in 8mm or could be used in a handheld router. For me that information would have been more helpful than the presentation of general (flush trimming) router bits. That part I did know before. I imagined something like the blade insert trend (?) bit of your video. But as a double bearing. I know that there are 8mm bits of that type. Have not seen double bearing on them though. Also, I was wondering why those actually have long blades all the time and are not equipped with those small blades. Furthermore, a longer (insert blade) trimming bit with bearing on the shaft, which could be used for drilling into the wood would be nice as well - have not seen that either. But as I said: maybe it's just me, the shops I know and search terms I use...
That bit looks mean. With all the benefits you mentioned I think this would work perfectly for a commercial shop, or anywhere where it would get a lot of use. I hope the screws stay tight.
I just had an interesting thought - would it make sense to have a bearing template spindle sander?
Depends on what you’re doing with it. Can’t think of a benefit personally?? 🤷♂️👍
Yes, and I have seen them used on electric guitar bodies, I've not used one personally though. I would guess they'd be great in a production environment, where your Saturday staff could be trusted to not sand divots into the body.
The carbide cutters are made to cut
Hard metals, and i have seen them chop off a 100thou cut in a pass on hard steel, then send red hot chips flying. That wood is no where close to as hard as steel is like a 4140 stressproof. You can crank up the speed and feed rate, just slow down on the last pass.
Just like the helical head in my planer only much scarier🤣 I am sure it's a good idea to make sure everyone of those carbide inserts is tight!
I've seen them advertised on the inter web and knew they were Chinese so didn't look any further. Rather novel idea and would expect excellent cut quality if they were of good quality. However, flying carbide blades in the shop is something to consider, nod to the spin up test!!
Hi Peter, I love your videos and have learned a lot from you. On a separate subject, I’m about to purchase a quiet Hyundai oil free air compressor for my home woodwork shop to run air nailers, staplers and for paint spraying. I’m happy with my choice of air compressor but a bit bewildered by the wide selection of air nailers, ranging in price from tens to hundreds of pounds. I know you are always frugal in your choice of tools, always looking for value/performance at an affordable price point. Can you recommend a good brand of air nailers at a reasonable price? Steve
Thanks! Try this one - My cheap nailer and compressor, ruclips.net/video/eJo3JMkv3JE/видео.html and this one Nailer and Stapler Basics [video 485], ruclips.net/video/nVta5PEetzE/видео.html
FWIW my two most used nailers are cheap Silverline ones, and they work great. 👍
Thanks Peter, very helpful. I presume with an oil free compressor you need to add an oiler to the air tool line. What diameter air hoses do you use and do they typically come complete with the end connectors for both the nailer and the compressor? From where would source them (and an oiler)? Steve
Similar to the larger heads I have on my shaper. Insert heads are the way to go, IMO.
You get a much better idea of the sound difference of these helical bits on a router than a thicknesser being exposed, sounds like an air-raid siren on the spin down 😂 I don't really see it being any more dangerous than any other replacable blade bit, as long as everything is torqued down correcly (and it's a quality tool!) it shouldn't be any worse.
I'm always scared of using no-name router bits, especially bigger ones. And for the price of this one you can actually get 2 CMT compression flush trim bits from xtreme series (7/8/906.41B), which are very nice.
Compression bits are excellent - I have some myself - but they’re not generally available with replaceable tips/cutters. 👍
Interesting router bit. What do you think to spiral up/down router bits?
Spiral/down and compression bits are excellent. But you don’t get them with replaceable tips/ blades.
When your router bit looks like it belongs in a horror movie, you might want to double-check if it's allowed in your workshop! 😱
Aaaah! I saw the thumbnail and it reminded me of something - it was a disassembled planer I saw once. For the planer, the argument was actually noise - what's your opinion Peter, does it make less noise than your usual bit?
I haven’t tried a stand flush cut trimmer in the router bench tbh, so hard to say; this certainly wasn’t a noisy bit though. 👍
I was once told in the 90’s i was not allowed to use a broom that had a snapped off top end of about 3”.
The reason?
‘I could trip over and the handle could impale my heart’
An actual thing that actually happened.
🤷🏻♀️👀
I'd make sure I was stocked up on loctite, would hate to have one of those with a loose screw.
what would be the problem if used on a handheld router?
Potential for personal injury if the bit snatches or kicks back, lots of exposed bit if those cutter tips ever let go. 👍
Nice clean cut.
Very! 👍
Thanks for sharing.
Do you have a link to your router table if you’ve made one👍🏻
👍 Torsion Box Router Bench Build - ruclips.net/video/Q-Vyq4ShHT0/видео.html
AUK Router and Jessem Lift [*Gifted/Ad][video 511] - ruclips.net/video/h47fFhhohgs/видео.html
Excellent. Much appreciated 👍🏻
They have been hogging metals from aluminum to all the carbon steels for over 15 years with bits like this. Wood is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.
Think I would wear a full face shield with that monster cutter.
Game Of Thrones style router bit 🤣 Well done for controlling that bad boy Peter!
Thanks! Game of thrones, mad max, gladiator, Ben hur - it’s been around, this bit! 😂👍
@10MinuteWorkshop Oh yeah Ben Hur!!! 😂
Where can you get theses from
I go through the whole video explaining why I'm not linking to it, and I tell you where I bought mine from at around the 9:30 mark, and how easy it is to search for. 👍
Wow. I need one of those. 👍
Espectacular Peter
Premier League
saludos
Gerardo
I do all my woodworking while hiding under the bench, it's the only way to be truly safe. (until I hit my head on the underside of the bench getting out again)
Obvious advantage with any spiral cutter,is,the,minimised load on the tool motor because less of the cutting blade is ever in contact with the work surface
Saw these on Amazon and thought that’s a nice mini ninja star launcher 😂
Awesome tool!
A lot of issue raised in this video. Is that router bit legal? Working alone in a private (non commercial) workshop, the relevant Law really doesn’t apply. In a commercial workshop, the HSE does come into play. In my experience, few tools are themselves illegal - although your position would be weakened if you had bought tools for others to use which do not carry the relevant British Standard. I have copied and paste at the end the headline page on that for people with insomnia to read.
So your tool may or may not carry that standard; in itself neither way makes it legal or illegal. Where the Law comes into play is the training for its use and the risks associated with its use. For each task (from washing the mugs to spindle Moulder) the employer is required to produce a Site Specific Risk Assessment (SSRA) with that being readily available for all to read. Plus, if any chemical is used (from washing up liquid to adhesives), the employer must produce a document outlining the properties and risk of that chemical in line with the COSHH regulations. That SSRA will cover what training the operator must have gone through and exactly how the task is to be carried out, with what PPE, chemicals etc. In the case of washing up (I’ve done those), the SSRA is quite simple; for complex, high risk tasks using chemicals, the COSHH and SSRA are going to be equally complex.
All of this is for the health and safety of the employees. I used to tell my managers that nobody had a greater responsibility than to ensure their workers were safe and went home as healthy as when they came in. The tabloids like to talk about ‘elf and safety’ to spark off indignation. Well, I have yet to find such a story which is actually accurately reported. I don’t forget that the whole H&S culture along with the HSE was borne out of the Flixborough disaster where people died as a result of working practices which risked, and cost them, their lives.
So, is this bit legal in a private, no-employee, workshop? I can’t see why not.
Is this bit safe to use in that private workshop? I don’t know. The British Standard would give me some assurance but, shock, even these have been counterfeited.
Does made in China mean it’s bad, good or indifferent? Not by itself. Many of the tools we buy are either made in China or using tools made in China. In my experience, China will make anything to whatever standards the buyer wants. If the buyer wants throwaway, then China will make it. Trusted organisations such as Axminster Tools buy a lot from China. I’m happy to take it that Axminster define the quality they want and quality check the conformity. I have bought many measuring tools made on China with the Veiko brand and I’m very happy with quality and accuracy. When compared to, say, Woodpecker, the same accuracy at a fraction of the price. Given that the overwhelming majority of the costs in making a square or a ruler are the aluminium (global resource) and the CNC (global product) I don’t know how that price difference can be justified other than they charge it because people still buy it.
A spindle Moulder is not illegal. Without the proper training and SSRA, the employer would be breaking the law if it were used in a commercial shop.
A bucket, detergent and sponge are not illegal. Without the proper training and SSRA, using them to clean the outside windows 100ft in the air, would be be.
Part 1 - BS ENs for woodworking machines
BS EN 847-1
Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Milling tools, circular saw blades
BS EN 847-2
Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Requirements for the shank of shank-mounted milling tools.
BS EN 847-3
Tools for Woodworking. Safety requirements. Clamping devices
BS EN 848-1
Safety of Woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Single spindle vertical moulding machines
BS EN 848-2
Safety of woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Single spindle hand fed/integrated fed routing machines.
BS EN 848-3
Safety of Woodworking machines. One side moulding machines with rotating tool. Numerically controlled (NC) boring and routing machines.
BS EN 859
Safety of Woodworking Machines - Hand fed surface planning machines
BS EN 860
Safety of Woodworking machines. One side thickness planing machines.
BS EN 861
Safety of Woodworking machines. Surface planing and thicknessing machines.
BS EN 940
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Combined Woodworking Machines.
BS EN 1218-1
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Single & tenoning machines with sliding table.
BS EN 1218-2
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Double end tenoning and/or profiling machines fed by chain or chains
BS EN 1218-3
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Hand fed tenoning machines with sliding table for cutting structural timbers
BS EN 1218-4
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. Edge banding machines fed by chain(s)
BS EN 1218-5
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Tenoning machines. One side profiling machined with fixed table and feed rollers or fed by chain.
BS EN 1807-1
Safety of Woodworking machines. Band sawing machines. Table band-saws and band re-saws.
BS EN 1807-2
Safety of Woodworking machines. Band sawing machines. Log sawing machines.
BS EN 1870-3
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Down cutting cross-cut saws and dual purpose down cutting cross-cut saws/circular saw benches
BS EN 1870-4
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Multiblade rip sawing machines with manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-5
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular sawbenches/up cutting cross-cut sawing machines.
BS EN 1870-6
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular sawing machines for firewood and dual purpose circular sawing machines for firewood/ circular saw benches with manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-7
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Single blade log sawing machines with integrated feed table and manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-8
Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Single blade edging circular rip sawing machines with power driven saw unit and manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-9
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular Sawing Machines. Double blade circular sawing machines for cross-cutting with integrated feed and with manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-10
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular Sawing Machines. Single blade automatic and semi-automatic up-cutting cross-cut sawing machines.
BS EN 1870-11
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Semi-automatic and automatic horizontal cross-cut sawing machines with one saw unit (radial arm saws)
BS EN 1870-12
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Pendulum cross-cut sawing machines.
BS EN 1870-13
Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Horizontal beam panel sawing machines
BS EN 1870-14
Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Vertical panel sawing machines.
BS EN 1870-15
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Multiblade cross-cut sawing machines with integrated feed of the workpiece and manual loading and/or unloading.
BS EN 1870-16
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Double mitre sawing machines for V-cutting.
BS EN 1870-17
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Circular sawing machines. Manual horizon cutting cross-cut sawing machines with one saw unit (manual radial arm saws).
BS EN 1870-18
Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Dimension saws
BS EN 1870-19
Safety of Woodworking machines. Circular sawing machines. Circular saw benches (with and without sliding table) and building site saws.
BS EN 12750
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Four sided moulding machines
Part 2 - General relevant BS ENs and BSs
BS 4163
Health and Safety for design and technology in schools and similar establishments. Code of practice
BS EN 12779
Safety of Woodworking Machines. Chip and dust extraction systems with fixed installation. Safety related performances and safety requirements.
BS EN 13850
Safety of machinery - Emergency Stop - principles of design
BS EN ISO 13857
Safety of machinery - Safety distances to prevent hazard zones being reached by upper and lower limbs
BS EN 144916
Dust explosion venting protective systems
BS EN 1037
Safety of machinery - Prevention of unexpected start-up
Why wouldn't it be legal, what is the risk exactly?
@@riba2233 any tool, just as any toy, has to be safe for its purpose. You see Trading Standards do raids for unsafe electric scooters and then take the importer or whoever to Court. If the bit were to cause an accident (eg explode), then the HSE would ask the employer what did they do to ensure that the bit was made properly eg to the British standard. If the employer could not show due diligence then the HSE may well take the employer to Court. They would also, I presume, go after the importer but that would be difficult if there was no UK importer. It’s in that sense that I would describe the bit as not legal
@@theofarmmanager267 ok but I am wondering what could specifically be wrong with this exact bit, why are we talking about the safety of it compared to every other tool accessory which we use daily
@@riba2233 I can only think it is because it is quite large; has pieces that could lessen; is usually quite exposed when working. Those issues increase the risk to the user and therefore the question of whether it is safe (would meet the H&S Acts; failure to do so would infer its illegality) is probably enhanced. Compared to the blades in my planer, it’s a small cutting tool but I can see something of why people might be more concerned.
Would I use one? Would I think it’s safe to use? I would look at the certification if I didn’t know the manufacturer
great bit. the only concern i would have is that its a no name import job . if it was made by one of the big name manufactures i would trust it a lot more. those kinds of insert cutters give amazing finish and tear out less cuts
Alot of potential for parts coming loose with all of those separate bits and screws spinning 😮
About the same potential as for the planer blocks, but with fewer bits. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop I’d be concerned with each cutter just being retained with a single fastener. The other router bit with replaceable blades (the one shown at least) had multiple. That potential single point failure in an exposed bit could be more of an issue than with a planer or jointer where the shaft and cutters are with in the machine. If designed properly with good quality fasteners, it should be ok, but fasteners can be very suspect and poor quality if not from a reputable supplier. Even then counterfeit fasteners are a real problem in some industries. It was in shipbuilding which I was involved with.
I don't see why this is any more dangerous than any other router bit? Replaceable cutting edges have been around for decades. What you didn't mention was how an expensive router bit can be ruined by a nicked edge, in this case you can just turn the damaged edge out of the way?
Not a true helix bit as it is not shearing the material at an angle less than 90 degrees, so potentially will suffer from tear out the same as a non-spiral bit. Stiil good if you get a knick though and can rotate the offending edge.
Love the spinup test, but you also need to figure out a way to test it under load -- that seems the most likely moment for one of those things to chip off, etc.
I personally recommend using a tough leather shop apron, as well as a polycarbonate face shield, rather than just safety glasses. This should offer considerably more protection against any kind of catastrophic failure for something like this -- e.g., one of the squares shatters and flies off in bits and piece at high speeds. ANY power tool can be dangerous, but, in increasing order:
Drill Press
Miter Saw
Table Saw
Planer
Jointer
Band Saw
Router
Hand-held Angle Grinder (this can vary *_a lot_* with the head you're putting onto it. There is an insane attachment that is basically a chain saw disk that I think you're an idiot to use)
Is about how I'd rank them. The last two are particularly dangerous because they operate at much higher speeds, so are even more likely to grab something faster than you'd expect and toss it in some random direction -- sometimes pulling your hand with it into a danger zone.
The Jointer and the Band Saw *§* are easier to protect yourself against -- but peeps do stupid things failing to consider what is happening with the wood and the nature of the cut. This is where understanding the setup of all the tools is very important -- every one of them can grab a work piece and do something unexpected with it that can have a body-damaging level of force. Yes, even the drill press can do this, by binding with the work piece and spinning it, which can break fingers and hands and even arm bones if the piece is not properly clamped in place.
=============
*§* There is a video of a popular woodworking youtuber who self-admittedly got sloppy, and almost suffered a much more serious event when his bandsaw grabbed something he was working on and threw it around, bouncing off the bandsaw itself and then hitting him in the head. Thanks to the fact that it was a deflection, it had lost much if its power, but he acked he had a serious lump.
*He was honest enough to detail it, along with the footage of the event, just to make people think about the danger of getting careless and complacent when doing a repeated activity.*