Expert Surveyor Tips for Buying a Used Sailboat: Avoid Costly Mistakes - Part 4
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2024
- We're back topsides for more inspection tips this week - covering steering, lifelines, standing rigging, and a few other bits.
Jim's knowledge of used sailboats (and powerboats) is immense and in Part 4 of this multi-part series, Jim Dias will help you learn about things to pay attention to when buying a used sailboat.
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Jim Dias
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accreditedsurveyors@gmail.com
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==============Segments==============
00:00 Intro
01:14 Steering Systems
03:23 Throttle and Gear Shifter test
04:00 Bilge pump check
05:22 Stantion check
06:17 Winches
07:01 Locker lids
08:00 Wire standing rigging check
08:30 Swage & norseman inspection
11:00 Lifelines
13:22 Gooseneck & Corrosion
15:00 Furlers
16:15 Forestay extrusion
17:10 Gelcoat check
This video explained an exact issue I had on my boat but wasn't able to diagnose myself. Brilliant stuff RanDay!
great to know... what was the issue?
Tip for working on winches: Cut a hole in a box to slide it over the winch, to catch parts from going overboard.
A comment like this was learned with pain…. 😮. Great advice, thanks.
Outstanding idea
What an encyclopedia of boat knowledge Jim has.
agreed.... his love of boats is infectious... he wants everyone to be out there (safely)..
This series with Jim has been incredibly interesting, informative and helpful! Many thanks to everyone who helped bring this to us! It makes me think I know a little about what to look for in an old boat.
hopefully, by the end of this, you'll have a reference and a checklist to look for yourself... and know when it's time to call in a pro for a survey.... and then live the dream! cheers, paul!
I absolutely love that you included pictures and diagrams as visual aids. Hands down separates your videos from others! Keep it comin!
Thanks Aaron!
I've watched 4 of your vids with the surveyor. It honestly scares me to death (well, to not want to buy an old boat) when I see all the potential pitfalls. Wow.
Quickly becoming my favorite series to watch because of the surveyor tips. They are amazing!
I feel bad for the owner of that boat but it's a very good educational tool. Keep the good stuff coming Rnadall.
yeah, it happens... life events happen and it gets in the way of maintaining it properly... we have seen it many times and it's not because the owner doesn't want to take care of it... just that they don't have the time/resources. This one could be brought back by someone with some muscles, a healthy wallet, and some tenacity.... which might be a little rare. Jim's advice is to move onto another boat that doesn't need quite so much love... thanks JL
Hi guys, well what can I say Jim has so much knowledge about boats this yacht, you have to nearly get it for nothing to repair all life things that is wrong with It thank you for the series that you were doing. I really enjoyed them and hope Captain Q is okay and will catch up with him soon. Cliff from Logan City Queensland Australia 🇦🇺 from the big island 🏝️
Thanks Cliff! Yes, this would be a big and interesting project for the right person. cheers!
You buy new you get an immediate depreciation hit. Buy used you’re exposed to significant repairs. Rent or charter sounds very attractive. Thanks, great series.
that's definitely a great way to dabble in ownership. In New England, the season is short, and the costs are high so chartering can definitely make more economic sense... it depends on what you want your hobbies to look like... and where you might want to sail... great point!
@@YachtHunters I've raced sailboats most my adult life but my back has limited my sailing but more impacts my ability to work on and maintain a boat. Formally of Chicago and Connecticut, i live in the south now where there is limited sailing so i now have an 18' Center Console to play around with the grandkids. The water down here in the summer is clear and warm. So if I wanted to sail I would charter. Seeing Jim do a survey and your boat Ran Day brings back nightmares of wiring and plumbing on past boats i've owed. Im too old for that now. Thanks, great videos.
Rent or charter to see if you like a particular style of boat.
This series is worth a million bucks, thanks a lot & greetings from the north of Germany!
thanks very much for the kind words. glad you enjoyed them... we're working on more this coming season. cheers!
This whole series was extraordinarily good.
Thanks very much… we’re going to be continuing it later this year. Cheers
Great knowlegeable person Jim, lots of thanks to him!
im loving this series with Jim..Thanks for bringing him
thanks very much... glad you're liking them
Thanks guys I'm going to go get my topsiders wet right now! Ain't nothin cooler than an old pair of topsiders
Excellent
Excellent series of videos with this surveyor.
thanks!
So much good information conveyed! : - )
Great info
i love this video series. learned so much. maybe it would be cool to have a follow up video in a professional boatyard where you show how to solve the problems identified in the survey?
great thinking. we had a plan in place to do just that with a marina in Maine but they ended up canceling it on me.... i'll try to find another one that is more eager to participate.... just might take a little time. thanks!
Fantastic series with the surveyor. Thanks
I also agree, this series is fantastic, great job and thanks.
one of the best we've seen... thank you. wasn't planning on watching every single second... but did :)
sounds like a reasonable and practical approach. I'll definitely take a look. Watching the flaking come on and then trap the water in is frustrating... thanks!!
For me watching these small details sure does show the importance of having a good survey!!
Great things to know for everyone 👍
thanks for a lovely, entertaining and informative episode....
The very best presentation. Thank you, Jim.
discovered this channel with this amazing series of video. Really super usefull !
Thanks so very much for producing this content. I know of no one else that is doing the same. Highly important information that is so hard to get!! Many thanks 🙏
much appreciated... thanks!!
This is amazing. Thank you so much Jim. Ran-day, thank you these are some of the best new boat videos I have seen
So much useful information and very well explained
Thanks Raaanday!
Thanks for the great insight.
Our pleasure! thanks!
Great information guys! Worth seeing.
Glad you think so!
Love your content. What a blessing it is for the both of you to have known and know each other. Thanks fo sharing such a lifelong friendship. Prayers.
Another video for the library for sure!
great to hear. thanks!
This has been a wonderful series for potential buyers, thanks for providing such great content.
awesome information thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you Randall great info 👍🇬🇧
thanks mark!
Thanks Jim and Ran-Day! Enjoyed how much can be derived from non intrusive/ gentle man handling of the SV. Top info again.
Another informative and entertaining video.
Glad you enjoyed it thanks!
Well done Randall!!
thanks very much!
Another excellent episode. Thank you again Randay. Have a good weekend.
Thank you for watching... glad you liked it!
Lived this series. More of Jim please
We’re working on it! Jim was sidelined for a bit and then had to heed the siren of the sea and took off for a few months… we’re picking this up in the next few months
Great little series of instructional videos, such generosity in the sharing of knowledge seems typical to sailing types...must be the rules;-)
Thanks again! I'll be able to practice these guidelines over the weekend, really good content Randall.
great to hear. thanks
Again, very informative with great visuals and detailed information.
Glad you enjoyed it! thanks very much!
Thank you for such an informative and entertaining video. I learned more in the first three parts than all my previous sailing experience and education.
Great set of videos. I've only seen 1 written survey previously and thought it was ....basic. Now I know I was right ;-)
Thanks for another great video with Jim. It's actually great that you both looked at this boat with all its problems, since it serves as a perfect example of what those problems look like.... So this was a perfect teaching tool, compared to if you were on a new boat without any issues to see...
Unfortunately the owner of that boat now knows he's going to have to scrap it or give it away...
Best video Ive seen on this topic thanks.
wow... thanks very much. that's great to hear
Thanks for this video series... Excellent 👌👍
thanks for watching. We have more in the works so stay tuned. cheers!
Thank's you both for these 4 very useful videos.
There’s more on the way… just need to find some time when Jim isn’t in high demand (not that often!) and we’ll pick up where we left off. Glad you enjoyed them! Thank you
Good morning! The greatestest part is seeing experts/craftsman that spent their entire life becoming experts. America needs this in many industries. Quick question. Did Capt Q retire?
great video series! I learned so much. This is really useful stuff to help immediately determine if a boat is worth your time.
Great to hear! We’re going to continue the series as soon as Jim’s schedule allows 👍👍
Fantastic tips! Never heard anything like this before. Of cause I am a newbie
Glad it was helpful! Cheers there’s more stuff in the pipeline from Jim.
I got one for you guys. The Stearns twin stay had no internal forestay but was a heavy extrusion with fore and grooves and crazy bearings top and bottom. Some were furling some not was a precursor of head foils.
Great episode
The particular furler that's shown looks like a Hyde Stream Stay. It is one of two brands that were available in the US that used a solid aluminum rod (extrusion) instead of Hood's approach: A tubular aluminum extrusion with a SS 1x 19 (or "rod") headstay inside which remains stationary while the hollow extrusion rotates around it.
Both the Hyde Stream Stay and Timmy Stearns' "Twin Stay" were born in the same place: Ohio at Grand River Marine (don't quote me on that, I never look things up lol), and both were solid aluminum rods without the now "de rigeur" headstay inside. The Hyde had a single luff groove slot and was round section. The Twin Stay was an elliptical section with two grooves (essentially one fwd, one aft) primarily for quick headsail changes but I guess you could rig it to accept two downwind sails simultaneously. They were very difficult and expensive to ship, being upwards of 55 or so feet long. They were considered very "high end" and were on many successful racing boats. It's pretty clear the drums were still flintstone back then, but this one is intact because they never used a wire rope furling line on it.
Being solid aluminum, they could really take a beating; they were one piece top to bottom and would just shrug off impacts or bending worries.
Were the rods threaded into the (316) Terminal ends? Nope. They came with an aluminum wedge that pinned into a "hacksaw-cut" that split the ends in half lengthwise. They were set into the terminals with lots of epoxy. If we had been less interested in following the instructions verbatim we probably would have used LifeCaulk, which is my personal favorite SS-to-AA insulator bar none. Or maybe polyurethane caulk except it wasn't well known or available in the stone age.
imho, those are pretty immortal. The Head swivel is living proof. The end terminals use off-the-shelf steel thrust bearings and the only weak link is the Terminal cap shaft eyes (which can get crevice corrosion in the "bolt" part), which any machine shop could create, they're just eyebolts which connect to the clevis pin outside, go through the threaded disc terminal cap, through the inside 3-bearing stack, to a locknut.
The aluminum rod isn't going to pull out of the terminals, it can't.
Downside: Dinky size (frictiony) luff tape sizes, and there's no real way to keep water out of the top bearing terminal stack once the o-ring on the eyebolt starts leaking rainwater. I believe the top (water damaged) bearings are what's giving this furler a chunky roll.
All good things got to come to an end and it's the same with the solid rod furlers. By the 80's even Hyde had gone to a hollow extrusion, with the Stream Stay Two, which if you have one it's past time to replace the lower t bar toggle with any stock t-bar that fits. The Hyde t bars are longer than std so you may need an extra toggle or two as well.
Thank You.
Great series. Having an old boat, i still find it helpful to hear these tips. I have noticed some pitting on my mast. Is there anything i can do to keep further pitting? Is it a concern?
HalleluYAH Hahahaha "Let's get off this boat!" Excellent video full of tips. Thank you so much for sharing.
🎉always good points. Happy 4th🎉🎉🎉🎉
thanks! happy 4th to you as well!
Stopped by to see if there was a new video posted. I hope the Captain is okay Randal. Please give him my best & best to you too.
Mike on the North Coast of Northern Ireland.
Great information in this four part series! Any plans to continue the survey inside a boat? I’d love to hear more about repairing some of the issues found, as well. This boat’s deck is obviously gone, but what would it take to fix more minor deck moisture? Every issue on a boat sounds scary, but some are simple and some are show stoppers. Folks watching these videos don’t always know the difference. Thanks!
Start with insurance! My underwriter stated; No Boats over thirty years old! Yearly Survey required at twenty five years old! No Insurance for Florida, Louisiana, Hawaii and Alaska! No Live Aboards! Must have a home port! However there are speciialty Insurance Companies. Also, the Insured's Sailing Resume and accident history. Limits to boat length and tonnage etc! Maybe limited to less than 35 feet.
It’s fairly limiting (and also annoying).I’d add one other concern - most marinas won’t haul you without insurance… so it really becomes quite a pickle if you have an older boat… a speciality insurer seems to be the only way to go… I wasn’t happy with mine
I have a question for Jim, What do you suggest is better for the long term - gelcoat or paint for the hull? Ran-day thank you for another important video.
What do you think about a 73 Hillyard 13 ton , mahogany on oak . With a replacement Iroko & Iron keel with new bolts ? I am wanting this boat . THANKS Phil.
Thanks for another good post. In a future installment, would Captain Q consider doing a comparison between the designers Ted Hood and Ron Holland? And maybe German Frers for good measure. Thanks again, and keep up the good work. Take care.
these videos are cool and helpful but it would really be nice to get some numbers and hear the estimated value of each thing.
great idea... I'll see what we can do for the next episode in the series. thanks!
I took a look at an Irwin 37 yesterday, I shall return
outstanding... keep us updated ... and best of luck!
It appears that the captain has retired. Well deserved, he and Randy have produced some excellent sailboat videos. We have seen a variety of sailboats in all sizes and price ranges. My pick of the litter is still the Puffin 42.
CQ never retires :-)
What do you think of rod type stays? Internal or external chain plates?
I'm sure that Jim could add insight but stainless (like Nitronic 50 or similar 17-4's) are wonderful as long as they're already installed.
But many riggers have a special place (look under the club) that they hide in until an owner finds Someone Else to replace it when the time comes. You just need to pull the rig and lay everything out in a yard when it's replacement time. Because why do it at all unless you're replacing everything from tangs to turnbuckles? That means take it all apart. Preferably before you find out that none of the stuff you have is being made anymore.
It is so much more of a hassle than 1x19 that this particular job tends to get postponed until someone new comes along and buys the boat. So it is not uncommon to see 30 year old rod, or 40 year old rod with the same turnbuckles that were supposedly all recalled by the 80's.
Fortunately, if you're just updating a furler, you can sneak a 1x19 headstay in there and not tell your friends.
You asked about "stays". That would technically mean Headstay/ Forestay('s) or Backstays. But loosely speaking "stays" is commonly used to describe All the standing rigging, including "shrouds". Rod stays are relatively easy to replace in most cases, if you don't mind the huge new coils that need straightening out. But replacing rod shrouds will test your mettle, especially (non-articulated) shrouds with spreader bends.
I'm mentioning this because replacing the rod on a used boat (for sale) could easily run $10k or more. Using the standard Boatyard formulas that is 2 to 3x more than a boat rigged with wire. Standard Boatyard Formulas are common pricing tools used by Professionals.
Like:
Any job will take 3x longer than anyone's wildest guess.
Any job will cost 3x more than the highest bid, usually due to the wild card "whileyeratits".
or the time tested:
You will never see more than 20% ROI for money spent on a (ski)boat. For larger vessels divide that percentage by 2 for every 10' of LOA.
So, a used boat with rod that needs replacing could be a deal breaker.
Personally, I don't see Anything about this particular boat that would be overwhelming, including the SHOT side deck lams. This boat is a gem as long as the new owner is aware that there's a lot to fix.
External chainplates are nice and strong and visible and exposed to oxygen. But they can snag on things like floats or OPBs (Ex-friend's topsides).
Inboard chainplates rock. But Anything made of stainless needs a close look at 20 years old.
Bronze chainplates are usually good to go, regardless of age.
Oh, btw never, never, never re-use any turnbuckle when re-rigging.
Thank You, not trying to hijack Jim's show; I would call him the last word on any situation.
Unfortunately, nine out of ten boats have one or two major problems.
That's a reason you see cheap sailboats out there. But short of structural issues most can be repaired or replaced. I've done all standing and running rigging, electrical, stantions, and other items on my boat, and the costs have been reasonable. But you need to itemize them first to see what the final cost of the boat will be. But dont be afraid to put a little sweat equity into a sound foundation.
well said.... having a boat with solid bones and prioritizing the big/safety items... then progressing from there... and go sailing along the way too!
Good point . I have a 38 Catalina Sparkman and Stevans. It is built like a tank but there are issues. I have owned it for 5 years and most things have been fixed. The catch, I bougt it for 24K...
I, like many are really enjoying this series. I also really enjoyed the series with Captain Q. Will the original Captain Q return?
sure. we're mixing it up a bit to get some different perspectives :)
What happened to captain q?. I liked his upbeat analysis of boats on the hard and their potential to sail again... Pure talent!
17:25 Even heavily oxidized gelcoat is not a big deal. As long as it's thick enough, you can wet sand, machine (or by hand if you are so inclined) polish, and get a great shine and correct color. There's a nice finish hiding under there. To my mind, it's a huge mistake to paint over otherwise undamaged gelcoat.
The sheet winches, which may be Barient 22's, and the halyard winches, which may be Barient 10H's, should not be thrown away because you will never find anything half as good to replace them with. Soak them in kero, wonder white grease on the bearings and 90wt on the pawls, and you're in business. Late-model "Barients" were not the same thing as these winches. These are the well-engineered Barients.
The blue rubber rings, "le Walders", were more of a gimmick than anything you really needed. I would cut those off.
Seems like they needed to mount the throttle upside down to clear the cupholders. Does that mean that you pull it to speed up?
THANK YOU Jim, we are all benefitting from your generosity. Maybe you didn't get the memo but youtube videos are supposed to be: "I've never done this before but I'm going to teach everyone else how to do it assuming I can figure it out".
You're right about that, Marty... some of these things are so well made when philosophies about longevity were different. Yes, pull up for speed in order to accommodate those cupholders ;) your comments are always good for some education and a good chuckle. thanks, my friend!
Where is the Captain? Miss him on the used boat adventures! Hope he is well. Rob
At what point do you decide to paint the boat rather than try to polish the gelcoat?
probably right at this point where the gelcoat is deteriorating so much that it's not serving much purpose other than creating more work (this is right around that point) thanks
So if Jim surveyed a dozen 40 yr old boats on your behalf, how many would be worth buying, how many would be seaworthy, and what would be the average amount of money you would have to spend on say, a 30 footer???
At the end of life on a boat, what do you do? How do you do it economically and safely? Does insurance help?
Consider donation- a lot of old boats are bought out of donation go be stripped for parts or salvage- even a boat in fairly poor shape has a lot of good salvage parts. There are boat recyclers out there but they usually charge a lot unless there is a lot of salvage value as the fiberglass can’t be economically recycled and landfill costs are fairly high.
Question.....should one be cautious of a wooden mast sailboat, example older Cheoy Lee for example?
You should be cautious of all manner of construction of masts on a sailboat, but that caution should go hand in hand with respect garnered by knowledge and not fear garnered by lack of knowledge. This goes for all systems large and small on a boat. Best wishes in the increase of your knowledge. Take care. Delve into specific inquiries to increase your understanding.
I was just reading a review for another Taiwanese boat titled: " Vagabond 47 Used Boat Review". In it, it states:
"Last but not least, the Vagabond 47 was offered with either wood or aluminum mast. Wood masts were generally painted rather than varnished, because it is easier and less expensive. Spotting potential problems can be very difficult even for very experienced surveyors and riggers. Boats with wood masts are generally less expensive than those with aluminum, but the savings aren’t worth it if the masts are in poor condition."
For your next series you can help me buy my first sail boat. 😂
I totally understand why a new owner especially would be all about having a quality survey done by a professional however it seems like some of the things they point out aren't a big deal and would result in a new owner being scared away.
Ran-dayy did you have a survey done on your boat before you bought it and where's Capt Q?? Sure pray hes doing well.
What organization offers a accreditation to marine surveyors?
SAMS and NAMS are two of the main marinine surveyor accreditation groups up to 50 tons.
❤
So are old boats really better built than newer ones ?
it really depends... it's tough to beat the solid fiberglass hulls from back in the early days... they are bomb-proof and also will outlast us all if cared for. Some of the builds back in the day were experimenting with efficiencies (like spraying in chop strand fiberglass) so there are some older boats out there that won't hold up as well as others. The new stuff is higher tech and designed with efficiencies in mind... we prefer the classics with the heavy builds... but others may prefer the wider beams and more luxury accommodations. cheers
Excellent series! I see a lot of real nice older sailboats in the North East online. In your opinion are there better deals up there compared to say, Florida? I came from MA originally and was on the ocean early on, was driving the boat at 9 or so, while dad hooked our lobster pots. The sailboats were mostly off the water by Nov or and covered, so I figured they were used less and maybe many are in better shape? Great show.
As a yacht broker of 30 some years I'd say that NE boats are some of the best. To many absentee owners in Florida. Also depending on type of boat a NE boat is often better than a Great Lakes boat where I'm at. Maintenance schedule in NE is often way better
Also FL boats tend to get used for a much longer season per year in much stronger sunlight compared to NE boats stored and covered in winter.
Yes... used for fewer months on the water, covered or stored for the majority of the year... less sun beating, less wear and tear... means that you get some older boats in pretty great condition in the Northeast region... cheeers
can you save vinyl covered lifelines by stripping off the vinyl?
you certainly could... although it might make more sense to start fresh. i'd check for rust and any burrs that might be problematic first... starting with some fresh stainless cable might be easier than stripping off the housing.
Been there. I found the wire thinner and not as good to hold so I went with plain wire. It’s also a tedious job to strip the white off the wire.
@@mikepitzer6062 thanks
Haven't see the skipper. Is he ok? Prayers
Thank you Albert I’m fine. Just waiting for a CNN low to pass
Oops. Don’t know where CNN came from. Regardless
Thanks for your note
CQ
@@YachtHunters You're in a low? Depressed? Barometric pressure got you done? Huh?
So sad that , that boat is only good for the junk pile. Thanks for the series , it has been very informative .
one viewer commented that this wouldn't deter him... so perhaps every pot has a lid. This might be a ton of work to bring back (and a good chunk of $) but maybe some industrious soul would love to save her. We hate to see great boats get sent to salvage (by the way, the boat from our episode #1 was recently spotted at a salvage yard missing the ballast... very sad moment). thanks stephen
@CaptainQYachtHunter: Sorry to hear this. That boat looked better than many newer boats. Too many people interested in instant gratification these days, I guess.
I don't know where this Randall business came from but everyone knows that the name is Ran-dayy
I’m not sure how you service an injector ?
If you take them out to test them for spray pattern and cleaning you might as well buy new or rebuilt for the money to do the checks.
It injects , atomizes fuel and has a break open pressure poppet .
They work or they don’t .
If there is a build up of carbon the fuel still sprays out. But there is a heat issue because the fuel burns by heat of compression. If your engine is overcooling or at little to no load Carbon build up occurs.
It also leaves unburnt fuel residue in the cylinder and that removes the oil film needed to lube the piston and rings . This causes extra wear fast.
Usually engine manufacturers have hours of use replacement guidelines .
X amount of hours , replace with new or certified rebuilt.
Check your cooling system operates at proper temp .
Don’t idle a diesel too long. Better at higher idle rpm’s. Keeps the heat and uses less fuel too.
It’s a pressure over time fuel delivery relationship .
This is good content, but, did you kill Captain Q on the last voyage? What's the deal with this???
looking to mix it up and get some different perspectives... and learn a little along the way :)
Don't get me wrong, I like Ran Day n'all, and I like watching his trials and tribulations, but I've been watching since episode one, and without the captain and sea dog, it's "becalmed" .
you seem to always have issues with your exports. the video is missing p frames. try to add more
adobe tools (editing/etc) has been very buggy for months... so apologies if it's annoying. sometimes it just has to ship out the door even if it's got some ugly bits ;)
hope he tells us when to walk away.
Just bought my boat but I was doing the reverse. Find a boat that has a problem that would make most buyers run for the hills. If you can fix it you get the boat at half price or less, especially with winter coming on and berthing fees due. So if you want a cheap boat what are your skills? woodwork, structural fibreglass, rigging, making sails and canvas, electrical, mechanical? Don't look for a derelict that has stood at the back of the boatyard for years because it will take years and a ton of money to fix up. Look for something with one or two RECENT significant problems that match you skill set. The owner does not know how to fix it and does not want to face the yard bill for doing it so they are stuck with a boat they can't use and don't want to afford to repair. Worse it is costing storage fees and continuing to deteriorate. Offer them 25% of what the boat would be worth in reasonable condition. You may need to do some bargaining but you might be surprised. P.S. make sure you can move the boat without a truck, they get expensive real fast!
🤔 ... an affordable way to go sailing? You don't want my answer then.
did you see that $6,000 Bristol we toured? it was a pretty reasonabe deal... so it's possible... but not always easy to find! cheers
So sad, the last good job the boat did was provide and example of possible neglect, age and material failure.
it is always sad to see a boat in a state of disrepair or neglect.... but I always (quietly) hold out hope someone will come along and save it. thanks
Steering is definately important on a boat. Worst case: you can kill someone and/or sink the boat.
for a naval vessel, it's #2 of importance. #1 propulsion, without it, you're a sitting duck. with no steering, you get Bismarked. the absolute minimum necessary to flee, or simply be another moving target so that you get shot at instead of those who can shoot back. Some battles hasd some... unique circumstances.
Poor boat. Owner clearly didn't take care of it properly.
Tip #1: Don't lmfaoooo
good tip :)