Copy pasted from desc^ Disclaimer: This video includes E1S2 JL, E1S0 Robin, E1S1 RM and E3S1 Bronya. I am not relatable and never claimed to be. I am not trying to dunk on other people's characters nor am I trying to gas up my own. I'm not trying to sway general opinion or "prove" a tier list wrong. I am simply playing with my favorite character, its not that deep. I'm just some guy who plays videos games, I have no agenda to push (Besides the Robin agenda). If you take anything away from this video is pull support Eidolons. Thanks for stopping by! Also the thumbnail is purely a meme, no shade at anyone EDIT: Seems like a lot of people like the Trails music lol. SoundteamJDK are the GOATs fr
@@lavievievie Nowadays but I am not that impressed by Ruan Mei's E1 anymore in terms of pure damage amp (in crit teams i must clarify, in Break teams its goated). It only really starts to get good when you can stack 90%+ def shred, similar to what was shown in the video with pela + pearls, JL LC and quantum set. Robin E1 on the other hand is the most overtuned early support eidolon in the game, even her E2 enables some really funny stuff. If i were to pick 1 it would be robin e1 every single time
the fact that you have to write this long ahh essay just to not get harassed by dumbforks on the internet is sad. I wish gacha players in general will stfu and love their characters as normal characters instead of acting as if it's their parents just got murdered. Anyways, nice cook. Gained a new sub. thank you for the show case and may the grandma whisper to your ear "young man..." XD
it’s sad that you’re obligated to make this disclaimer in the first place, cuz we all know the gacha audience attracts low attention, low IQ retards. Like how Xolze experiences the deniers/haters/charlatans who won’t/can’t read or think critically, it’s become necessary to explain that “no, I am not endorsing delusional strawmen just because I didn’t explicitly say so in my title” lol
I mean it's whatever really. JL clears easily with Ruan Mei as well. With no Bronya needed in the mix mind you as you saw in the video. At this point specially with how hoyoverse has been with 4* characters in banners it's easier to have either a Ruan or Robin than a E6 Tingyun for newer players. With a Ruan and/or Robin I'd say you're set for a good while. Most players don't even care about the 0 cycle challenge and just want the 10 cycle full star rewards.
@@dvvafngl if they made a support that helps characters that take away hp from themselves or other characters then jingliu and baldie can have a comeback 🙏 and firefly wouldn't be even more busted bc she heals during ult, not lose
1:35 gives soda to bronya, as if knowing kafka is about to dominate her Holds onto gallagher ult, knowing the 30% effect res won't be enough 1:44 bronya is dominated, immediately gallagher ult just so he can give her a soda Very cool guy 👏
Yup. I'm also planning to get E1 Robin with my guaranteed instead of Feixiao. Having a new DPS can be fun, but having a stronger support makes exploring older and newer teams even more fun. Either that or save for Lingsha cuz I could use a secondary limited sustainer.
I love that the way we play bronya and tingyun is now really different, from advance forwarding and battery for dps, into advance forwarding support (Robin specifically).
It's crazy when you think about it that Jingliu was no.1 top dps on the tier list for a year before acheron and other broken characters appeared.. also people used to just brace through the moc with her and still clear it.
Well I have her with her sig and nah she won't do that much damage but yeah supports matter and her e1 unlocks her true potential will try her with my e1 Robin later to see if some of nos come close to this or not
i really regret pulling feixiao first bro, look at robin carrying the damn team 😭 (im still a sorttt of a newbie so i didnt know robin was that OP 💀) Edit: I think it's been like 2 weeks now, and I finally got Robin! I failed 5050 by Welt, but hey, I got her in the end. I'm pretty sure getting her LC will be near impossible, but I'll try! Thanks for all of the support, btw, this helped alot with my perspective in things.
Supports >>>>> DPS ALWAYS. A DPS without the right supports is nothing. A support, on the other hand, will boost most DPS characters. You could make someone as weak as Arlan or Yanqing 0 cycle clear thanks to insane supports like Robin, Sparkle, Tingyun, Ruan Mei, and Pela. Even some of the sustainers, like HuoHuo, Fu Xuan, and Gallagher offer support benefits outside of just keeping the team alive. Hope your Robin pulls go well :)
Also tips for f2p : never ever pull cons for dps. Support is way better. I read somewhere people recomending vertical investment for dps is very misleading. Its clear that support is way more important.
@@Bos_Meong this isnt quite true for the big meta dps's like firefly acheron and feixiao. they give you so much return on investment that its worth it.
I don't get why ppl think a character needs to 0 cycle or else they suck. Just play the game how you want and play whoever you want/like. Not like the world is judging you based on how fast you clear MoC, and well if you do have ppl that are then maybe you shouldn't be talking to them as you know how they view the real world just based on that.
Don't care about 0 cicyling anything, but i will see how much worse my E0S1 JL perform (And sure, a E0 robin). Maybe i learn something from your gameplay My favorite character as well 🤝 shes so stunning
JL ain't Blade tier. Not even close. I really think they messed up with Blade though. His damage is just so underwhelming for what you're investing on him. He's not a DPS, he's not a sustain, what the hell is he now? He's a wasted slot unfortunately. It sucks because I really like the character. At least he's still somewhat decent in Pure Fiction in some situations I guess.
@@eduardomiguel4773 Blade got 0 cycle clear on first side with the same team but 2 less costs (e0s0 blade) and without her e1 JL would take 5 business days to beat aventurine (if only blade's e1 was that busted) also grandma's kit is kinda bad for a hypercarry, I can't really think of possible support that would significantly boost her performance (I'd really like to hear some ideas) while Blade has a huge room for improvement in terms of possible supports
Well it certainly isn't the most relatable stats considering he has an S2 signature lightcone. The damage output potential is also influenced by E1. He also has E1S1 Ruan Mei, E1S0 Robin and E6 DDD Tingyun. But it's gonna be the same story for players pulling Feixiao now and Acheron. They will eventually get power crept too and that's scary to think about. If the likes of Acheron get powercrept what does that mean for DHIL and JL?
Maybe with the rumours about the new rememberance path, we will get more ice dps (or ice characters in general) cause Jingliu is the only 5* dps so far... And Mika the 4* one
The fact that in the new trailblaze continuance i failed to defeat hoolay using firefly break team(my build sucks)then i just use random bullshit go team with jingliu as dps and actually win it easily😂
hah, and people were saying single target damage wasn’t as important and blast is everything back then lol. Her ST damage is worse than Misha if not E1.
Low ahh scaling high self buff which in turn get diminishing return from support buff
Месяц назад+19
It mostly about her low scaling and turn duration based buff like Bronya, Sparkle, Tingyun doesn't work that well on her yet they're among her best teammates (if she were to have a special turn gimmick that keep the buff when she enter her state instead of action advance she would work quite lot better and would arguably be the best of “mid tier” dps or whatever tf the community want to call it) Another thing is her own self buff is so big to the point where her best relic at a high end investment is a freaking quantum set Tldr incompatibility with the support, no actual relics made for her is what hurt her but at the end of the day if the character can still clear with a reasonable amount of time and investment then they're fine
Aventurine mechanic counters her kit, with the dices wasting her precious enhanced turn, that takes half if not a full cycle to regain. Additionally, without E1 her single target damage just isnt amazing. Her team is mostly just hypercarry focus, meaning only herself is doing dmg (with downtime) while superbreak/follow up team have everyone contributing non negligible dmg.
her uptime is low, her cooldown is too long. only have 2 hit(+1) then need 2 turn to gain her uptime made her fell off. If u compared it to unit with similar kit like Firefly for ex, she has 4-5 hits before went on cd, u can also shorten FF's downtime with QPQ. Jingliu also doesnt have SPD buff like FF, and her advance forward after getting 2 stack counted as another turn, so u gonna waste Sparkle/Bronya's buff, while FF's E2 doesnt reduce any buff's turn. Even if u compared her to DHIL, at least DHIL got Sparkle to fix his flaw. But there s not yet a harmony that able to synergies really welll with JL.
she lacks a dedicated support. if she were to get her own 5* support she would shoot right back up to meta tier just like we have seen before. the only 5* dps that is a serious high tier contender without specialized support is archeron.
You know how JL is really cursed to play with shielders because her self action advance ticks down the shield duration? Yea same concept with E2 bronya, really cursed to play around so I didn't bother. Blade could prob abuse it much better
with the power of 100% DEF shred/ignore and 37% RES PEN/reduction I'll 0 cycle Aventurine -Jingliu prob. my Jingliu lack a little bit of dmg as I only have 90% def shred/ignore without Genius set sad.
Copy pasted from desc^
Disclaimer: This video includes E1S2 JL, E1S0 Robin, E1S1 RM and E3S1 Bronya. I am not relatable and never claimed to be. I am not trying to dunk on other people's characters nor am I trying to gas up my own. I'm not trying to sway general opinion or "prove" a tier list wrong. I am simply playing with my favorite character, its not that deep. I'm just some guy who plays videos games, I have no agenda to push (Besides the Robin agenda). If you take anything away from this video is pull support Eidolons. Thanks for stopping by! Also the thumbnail is purely a meme, no shade at anyone
EDIT: Seems like a lot of people like the Trails music lol. SoundteamJDK are the GOATs fr
Which E1 would you say is stronger from your experience RM or Robin?
@@lavievievie Nowadays but I am not that impressed by Ruan Mei's E1 anymore in terms of pure damage amp (in crit teams i must clarify, in Break teams its goated). It only really starts to get good when you can stack 90%+ def shred, similar to what was shown in the video with pela + pearls, JL LC and quantum set. Robin E1 on the other hand is the most overtuned early support eidolon in the game, even her E2 enables some really funny stuff. If i were to pick 1 it would be robin e1 every single time
@@xdunderscore thanks for your opinion, I guess the 24% res pen is as good as it seems
the fact that you have to write this long ahh essay just to not get harassed by dumbforks on the internet is sad. I wish gacha players in general will stfu and love their characters as normal characters instead of acting as if it's their parents just got murdered.
Anyways, nice cook. Gained a new sub. thank you for the show case and may the grandma whisper to your ear "young man..." XD
it’s sad that you’re obligated to make this disclaimer in the first place, cuz we all know the gacha audience attracts low attention, low IQ retards. Like how Xolze experiences the deniers/haters/charlatans who won’t/can’t read or think critically, it’s become necessary to explain that “no, I am not endorsing delusional strawmen just because I didn’t explicitly say so in my title” lol
that thumbnail killed me lmfao
Ikrrr
rest in peace. i'll always rember u😢😢
Grandma catching the works 😂😂
JL : friendship with ruan mei ended, robin is my new wheelchair
I mean it's whatever really. JL clears easily with Ruan Mei as well. With no Bronya needed in the mix mind you as you saw in the video. At this point specially with how hoyoverse has been with 4* characters in banners it's easier to have either a Ruan or Robin than a E6 Tingyun for newer players. With a Ruan and/or Robin I'd say you're set for a good while. Most players don't even care about the 0 cycle challenge and just want the 10 cycle full star rewards.
@@eduardomiguel4773 why did bro go on a yap session for
@@eduardomiguel4773ain't reading allat + JL fell off 😂😂😂
@@dvvaf this 1800 years old Jingliu still serves ice damage the old-fashioned way
@@dvvafngl if they made a support that helps characters that take away hp from themselves or other characters then jingliu and baldie can have a comeback 🙏 and firefly wouldn't be even more busted bc she heals during ult, not lose
This shows why Hoolay is scared of Jingliu
1:35 gives soda to bronya, as if knowing kafka is about to dominate her
Holds onto gallagher ult, knowing the 30% effect res won't be enough
1:44 bronya is dominated, immediately gallagher ult just so he can give her a soda
Very cool guy 👏
This was my fav part of the vid man
Cycle: you've 1 turn left
Robin and Bronya: nuh uh
my jaw dropped on adventurine side, very very nicely done
The thumbnail is funny as hell lmao
Glad I got E1 Robin over Feixiao I love seeing my old favorites like Clara and Jingliu dominate the content.
Same man, having Robin E1 making my older DPS work better is a delight
Yup. I'm also planning to get E1 Robin with my guaranteed instead of Feixiao. Having a new DPS can be fun, but having a stronger support makes exploring older and newer teams even more fun. Either that or save for Lingsha cuz I could use a secondary limited sustainer.
Sameeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Like my argenti and blade became sooooo much better with her around
I love that the way we play bronya and tingyun is now really different, from advance forwarding and battery for dps, into advance forwarding support (Robin specifically).
Skill issue. I got both
ngl i wish they showed Jingliu in the new quest, i wanted to see Hoolay , getting humiliated by her
so true i desperately need more of her story in game
@@tovarasunoirshe is literally inprisoned what do you want she to do
We got something better
A second Jingliu arising
Yanqing gets the coolest character development in hsr imo
5:50 BRO THE RAW DMG IS INSANE💀💀💀
Holy shit
2 buffer + 1 debuffer... If they not die then u die... Simple
Rare well built Jingliu, good job.
ROBIN IMPACT
Sir, this is star rail
@@ibal4004which is a honkai game.
>Every single DPS I own suddenly doing no damage when Robin's ult is down😭
@@xdunderscore
My future E6 ROBIN can make my QIQI deal 100k physical atk only by use a normal atk 🥶👍
Robin Star Rail*
Time for grandma to put Hoolay back in his place if he shows up next MOC
I love how Jing just refuses to stop being a good choice
Jingliu will never suffer the same fate as Dilic.... I pray
It's crazy when you think about it that Jingliu was no.1 top dps on the tier list for a year before acheron and other broken characters appeared.. also people used to just brace through the moc with her and still clear it.
Is that Falcom Music i hear??!! BASED
What's the soundtrack called?
@@SmashTheAdam Kuro no kiseki OST - Open The Shard!
There are other renditions of this beat, but i think the one used is that one^
@@AzyYusry thanks a lot
@@SmashTheAdamlike a whirlwind for the second side
Yessir love their games and their music. Daybreak 2 and Kai no kiseki can't come soon enough
Okay... Why is no one talking about the 180 speed
I am like dang that Pela speed. It's more difficult to get and roll speed stats than crits.
@@jyusatsui rolled 3 times into speed on my relic with both cr,cd,atk i just gave up on it
@@X10Z24i have a duke crit rate chest with 12 spd😅😅
@@jyusatsutrue it feels like speed is the most rare substat
@@mitchszit actually is according to data
This actually makes me want Jingliu because that’s impressive
Well I have her with her sig and nah she won't do that much damage but yeah supports matter and her e1 unlocks her true potential will try her with my e1 Robin later to see if some of nos come close to this or not
I am very happy to see Robin's power because she is my favorite character and I started playing for her without knowing if she was strong
Alternate title - e3 bronya and e1 Robin carry granny one more time before she stays in the nursing home for good 😭
i really regret pulling feixiao first bro, look at robin carrying the damn team 😭
(im still a sorttt of a newbie so i didnt know robin was that OP 💀)
Edit: I think it's been like 2 weeks now, and I finally got Robin! I failed 5050 by Welt, but hey, I got her in the end. I'm pretty sure getting her LC will be near impossible, but I'll try! Thanks for all of the support, btw, this helped alot with my perspective in things.
Supports >>>>> DPS ALWAYS. A DPS without the right supports is nothing. A support, on the other hand, will boost most DPS characters. You could make someone as weak as Arlan or Yanqing 0 cycle clear thanks to insane supports like Robin, Sparkle, Tingyun, Ruan Mei, and Pela. Even some of the sustainers, like HuoHuo, Fu Xuan, and Gallagher offer support benefits outside of just keeping the team alive. Hope your Robin pulls go well :)
Good luck, hope you get her early :)
Also tips for f2p : never ever pull cons for dps. Support is way better. I read somewhere people recomending vertical investment for dps is very misleading. Its clear that support is way more important.
Feixiao has very respectable F2P options, she's by no means a bad pick (but Robin will definitely help her a lot)
@@Bos_Meong this isnt quite true for the big meta dps's like firefly acheron and feixiao. they give you so much return on investment that its worth it.
NICELY DONE BRO. Low key want to just go back and work on blade
Am I hearing bangers from Trails OST? Totally based 💯
Excellent thumbnail btw. You play super well great job !!!!
Jingliu meta is eternal. 😊❤❤
that rotation is killing me PLEASE
@@ayafan8432 my scuffed rotation has claimed another victim 😔
based RUclipsr listening to good trails music
This thumbnail is so peak
Thanks, I will try to use the 2nd line up.
Glad I got jingliu e1 now I only need her s1 and rm e1 and Robin e1 and Sunday e1
I clicked on the video just because of the thumbnail lol
Robin casually going any team possibly exists
the 2.8 million hp hoolay in question:
My god I love jing liu so much 😍😍😍
Your first half is perfect 👍 I could never 😂
180 spd Pela with actual relic sets (not rainbow) is fucking cracked. I don't have the patience to grind that shit jeez louise
I have e1s1 jl/rm/robin so I declare this video relatable ;)
based trails and jingliu enjoyer spotted
I don't get why ppl think a character needs to 0 cycle or else they suck. Just play the game how you want and play whoever you want/like. Not like the world is judging you based on how fast you clear MoC, and well if you do have ppl that are then maybe you shouldn't be talking to them as you know how they view the real world just based on that.
Jingliu probably dominated Hoolay when she was on the Jail with him
I knew it was E1 the moment I saw the st dmg, hello fellow e1 enjoyer
Don't care about 0 cicyling anything, but i will see how much worse my E0S1 JL perform (And sure, a E0 robin). Maybe i learn something from your gameplay
My favorite character as well 🤝 shes so stunning
huge balls to waste damage to get the kafka kill 👍
That was absolutely beautiful
4:03 wait - I recognize this music from a certain series of heroes by falcom; excellent taste 👍
Robin: nah i'm the queen of 0 cycle
Back than we couldn't even imagine JL would become Blade tier
JL ain't Blade tier. Not even close. I really think they messed up with Blade though. His damage is just so underwhelming for what you're investing on him. He's not a DPS, he's not a sustain, what the hell is he now? He's a wasted slot unfortunately. It sucks because I really like the character. At least he's still somewhat decent in Pure Fiction in some situations I guess.
@@eduardomiguel4773 Blade got 0 cycle clear on first side with the same team but 2 less costs (e0s0 blade) and without her e1 JL would take 5 business days to beat aventurine (if only blade's e1 was that busted) also grandma's kit is kinda bad for a hypercarry, I can't really think of possible support that would significantly boost her performance (I'd really like to hear some ideas) while Blade has a huge room for improvement in terms of possible supports
shoutout to the hard working supports 🙏🙏
10/10 thumbnail 60/10 robining out
Me with E6 Jingliu just yeetus deletus everything😂
W music choice! Kiseki bros rise . . .
you've shown me i could potentially get 40 more crit dmg on jing liu...thank you
Damn that damage… I thought it was e6 jingliu at first haha ❤
50% crit rate 270% crit damage with 3k attack. So this is what Jingliu needs to be nowdays to get a good run.
Well it certainly isn't the most relatable stats considering he has an S2 signature lightcone. The damage output potential is also influenced by E1. He also has E1S1 Ruan Mei, E1S0 Robin and E6 DDD Tingyun. But it's gonna be the same story for players pulling Feixiao now and Acheron. They will eventually get power crept too and that's scary to think about. If the likes of Acheron get powercrept what does that mean for DHIL and JL?
Imagine Jingliu does not crit with 99.9% crit rate 😂😂😂
99.9% cr Jingliu goes hard
1:33 is their a reason you used skill instead of did burst because I usually use burst first to get the energy
looks like they were saving burst for bronya buff
Correct answer. @@zamn4842
well done
Kakie Lyudi UwU
Based Kuro enjoyer
Bruh my Seele has maxed ultimate trace and still only does like 25k damage💀
Ur relics substats problem
@@dumptrash7579no seele just sucks unfortunately
imo eng VA of hers nailed it
TRAILS OST GOATED
Remember when this granny + Bronya was the most op shit this game had
Holy shit Falcom music, based as fuck
The thumbnail make me click your video😂
how much time u farmed 180 spd pela bro
this crazy
Fire dmg 5%
Ice dmg 30%
Phys dmg 65%
Maybe with the rumours about the new rememberance path, we will get more ice dps (or ice characters in general) cause Jingliu is the only 5* dps so far... And Mika the 4* one
Honestly HSR lacks enemies with ice and quantum weakness
came to see grandma showcase but it was Robin's showcase lol
Did you see that nutty damage on Ruan Mei's team though? That Pela DEF shred plus Tingyun 👌
180 spd on pela in char screen is insane
Peak thumbnail 😂
i Main Jingliu, our life is hard😭
aight that thumbnail is funny lmao
Wow never though you used daybreak ost
W trails ost
Hopefully, you don't have to farm that much when the new Artifacts sets (BiS for JL) release
Nice thumbnail 👍
High Cloud Quintet Jingliu 🫡🫡🫡
The fact that in the new trailblaze continuance i failed to defeat hoolay using firefly break team(my build sucks)then i just use random bullshit go team with jingliu as dps and actually win it easily😂
yo what's the soundtrack on aventurine's side it's fire
@@sacrificialscapegoat209 "Like a Whirlwind" from Trails into Reverie (Hajimari no Kiseki)
You got E1 Jingliu tho, I was kinda expecting it to be an E0 Run..
bad single target dmg
Is jingliu, she can't do that anymore, the powercreep is crazy in hsr
e0 jingliu has fallen off long ago lol, needs e1 robin and e1 ruanmei to carry her😂
hah, and people were saying single target damage wasn’t as important and blast is everything back then lol. Her ST damage is worse than Misha if not E1.
@@Eclin things change
Just yesterday I took out Robin and did cycle 0 too, but my jingliu is E4
I still don’t get why JL falls off like there’re still some ice weakness foes, right? Her kit isn’t being countered, right?
Low ahh scaling high self buff which in turn get diminishing return from support buff
It mostly about her low scaling and turn duration based buff like Bronya, Sparkle, Tingyun doesn't work that well on her yet they're among her best teammates (if she were to have a special turn gimmick that keep the buff when she enter her state instead of action advance she would work quite lot better and would arguably be the best of “mid tier” dps or whatever tf the community want to call it)
Another thing is her own self buff is so big to the point where her best relic at a high end investment is a freaking quantum set
Tldr incompatibility with the support, no actual relics made for her is what hurt her but at the end of the day if the character can still clear with a reasonable amount of time and investment then they're fine
Aventurine mechanic counters her kit, with the dices wasting her precious enhanced turn, that takes half if not a full cycle to regain. Additionally, without E1 her single target damage just isnt amazing.
Her team is mostly just hypercarry focus, meaning only herself is doing dmg (with downtime) while superbreak/follow up team have everyone contributing non negligible dmg.
her uptime is low, her cooldown is too long. only have 2 hit(+1) then need 2 turn to gain her uptime made her fell off. If u compared it to unit with similar kit like Firefly for ex, she has 4-5 hits before went on cd, u can also shorten FF's downtime with QPQ. Jingliu also doesnt have SPD buff like FF, and her advance forward after getting 2 stack counted as another turn, so u gonna waste Sparkle/Bronya's buff, while FF's E2 doesnt reduce any buff's turn.
Even if u compared her to DHIL, at least DHIL got Sparkle to fix his flaw. But there s not yet a harmony that able to synergies really welll with JL.
she lacks a dedicated support. if she were to get her own 5* support she would shoot right back up to meta tier just like we have seen before.
the only 5* dps that is a serious high tier contender without specialized support is archeron.
My jingliu is defected hahahahah
Is jinglu is this crazy?
I would like to see Bladie like Jinglu
Grandma why do you use blind fold, you are already blind, deaf, old, not long until you dead and join your friend
Just a joke 😅don't take it seriously
Did u try playing around bronya e2 with jinliu ? is it worth it ?
You know how JL is really cursed to play with shielders because her self action advance ticks down the shield duration? Yea same concept with E2 bronya, really cursed to play around so I didn't bother. Blade could prob abuse it much better
Like and subbed just for the thumbnail
huo huo is better there imo for the energy
I don't have her lmao. The last sustain i pulled was Fu Xuan which was over 10 months ago at this point
@@xdunderscore sadge
What's the music (both I guess) that's used?
Side 1: "Open the Shard!" from Trails Through Daybreak (Kuro No Kiseki)
Side 2: "Like a Whirlwind" from Trails into Reverie (Hajimari No Kiseki)
NICE
We still out here
with the power of 100% DEF shred/ignore and 37% RES PEN/reduction I'll 0 cycle Aventurine -Jingliu prob.
my Jingliu lack a little bit of dmg as I only have 90% def shred/ignore without Genius set sad.
jingliu is still the best ice dps tho, it's not like she's jing yuan or blade
Probably because she's the only limited 5* ice DPS
Question: why do you always save your bronya ult for so long?
I didn't need the extra damage for wave 1 so I just saved for the start of wave 2
I barely could see ur build at the slowest speed... Atleast shows the stat for one second.
180 SPEED??????