Civil Support Operations in Northern Ireland (Or how to mess up badly by doing the right thing)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- [Correction: Where I say "Short Falls", I should have said "Short Strand"]
Well, I figured I had to do something Irish for Paddy's Day. The initial British Army involvement in Northern Ireland is an excellent case study in how an adherence to a tactical mission without particular reference to the larger political or cultural issues managed to squander an opportunity for a positive outcome and turned an initially positive community reaction into violent hostility.
Link to British Army assessment.
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The chieftain has the testicular fortitude to tackle touchy subjects in a constructive manner, it's goddamn refreshing and gives me hope.
@Milo Aden
really? Do you honestly expect anyone to fall for that?
@Archer Alan who gives a shiny sxxt?
Im just sad that it was the 5th time we had invaded and we didnt just wipe them out and start again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result from the last 800 years shows either a foolhardiness or just plain stupidity.
The lights going off despite the best planning was the perfect euphemism for the topic.
So poetic it has to be Irish.
I thought it was intentional for a moment
Daamn. Never seen a man walk through a minefield like that before. Did it with style too. Somebody give him a whiskey and a pint will ya?
Best Comment !
As someone who is born and bred in Belfast I found this really interesting, congratulations and fair play for tackling such a potentially controversial topic... In a gaa top 😂
Hes bloody good at this RUclips thing :D
@@ThroneOfBhaal Agree.
As if he's actually checking the background and some real facts before opening his mouth... unlike most of humanity.
was it the top of the team
He left out the issue that a quarter of the Police was UDA or UVF, and that the British Army had a problem with loyalists as well. When I first looked over at the Snatch Landrover I thought they were pointing their rifles at me, only to discover that they were actually pointing their rifles the two-year in the pram that I was pushing, which was my introduction to the hate that my girlfriend had to deal with all her life...
@@davidhollenshead4892 hilarious😂can you provide a source to confirm your assertions?
"firearms and ammunition were not usually kept on open display"
*confused Texan noises*
LOL.
Tbf most ammo and firearms on display that aren't in a gun store are modified to never work again... Things such as tanks and artillery pieces as well, they close the breach and fill them with concrete... And ammo is made inert, you don't need to see the propellent just the case...
Insurgents, not citizens
I'm from Belfast. And I can say that this video gives the most neutral position you will ever find.
Things in N.I are not easy to understand (even to us locals) but the video makes a clear assessment. Things went wrong in ways no one though possible.
Thanks for giving such a respectful short talk on the issue.
@Lexington73300 The legitimate residents? Lol, yeah mate your voice is really needed.
@Lexington73300 how was your UC payment you dole living dosser.
@Lexington73300 I see. So you think it's okay to violate people's civil rights based on their ancestry or religion, as long as it's you doing it?
I have to admit having done 3 tours in the province in the mid-late 70's my hackles rode significantly when I saw the title and I started watching with full outrage mode locked and loaded.....
Biut fair play to you, my outrage mode deflated very quickly as you negotiated round the minefield that is any debate on NI with skill and tact
My assessment - fair, honest and neutral
Well done and some interesting points made too
As a Brit (Im younger and non army, but I have read a lot of the history) so did mine... and then they went down immediately as Chieftain did his talk. I was really impressed. Totally agree with you (and you have more right to outrage than I - serving there must have been grim).
What you have just seen is a rule that good historians have: it takes 50 years for objective history to be written. This is often longer. Mind you I'm protestant, my wife and her family are Irish Catholics, and I'm extremely neutral on the subject.
Did you realize that a quarter of the Police & many of your fellow servicemen were UDA, UVF, etc. ??? By the way, that was the crown's estimate...
@@davidhollenshead4892 Try learning the difference between UDF and UDA before you post snarkie comments the UDF were part of the Security Forces the UDA a lotalist terrorist paramilitary group
@@Easy-Eight Histoty takes on a differemt perspective when you played a small part in it, it becomes personal
Oh this is perfect timing, I'm taking a uni class on the history of modern ireland and we've just gotten to this point.
Well this is awkward.
Enjoy the class. It is fascinating as history, just tragic as news.
History BA Honours here. Lived in Northern Ireland all my life. If you need any advice, I'm here.
@@stephenmcmahon5833 Thanks! Very well might take you up on that offer, depending on what I write my final paper on!
@@thelordofcringe
Not a problem
Thanks for not being afraid to touch a hot-button issue.
The best interaction I have ever seen between military playing police and the populus: late 90's, Sweden. Got waived in to a huge parking lot with a gigantic tent, armored vehicles and lots of military personell. A guy greeted me with a salute and asked if they could do an inspection on my car, all while I was in the tent getting refreshments and cookies. Apparently, they trained on traffic control, finding contraband and how to get the locals on the good side. And for some reason, they pulled in civilan cars and gently asked if we would let them play with our vehicles. Very nice, with really nice people.
Were they looking for illegal M&M candies? I saw a YT video where one of the items was that because the "M" in M&M is the same font as the "M" of a Swedish candy bar, M&Ms are illegal in Sweden.
@@Ciborium never asked. Was to happy to get coffee with as much cookies and cinamon buns I could eat, a break and some nice conversation. And that was enough to me.
And what if you declined their hospitality?
@@bozo5632 Then you just had to wait until you no longer declined......though not in the tent with the coffee and cookies but standing next to your car, in the rain, watching the line of vehicles, whose occupants accepted, pass you.
"Then I would just pull out my gun and force my way through", you might reply. No you wouldn't - not with a platoon of Leopard 2's pointing their cannon at you.
Don't mistake politeness with inability to enforce.
@@noremorsewoodworking2258 No, I'm not the "just pull out my gun" type.
And I value politeness. But I wouldn't like to be politely seized and searched without good cause.
Having served in Northern Ireland when I was 20 I wanted to know more about why I was there. I learned about part of the population almost living a white on white apartheid, in my country where all people should have had equal rights. That was wrong. But this was the community trying to kill my mates and me. That seemed wrong as well. Over the years I have learned more about the build up to the troubles looking at both sides. Nicholas has presented a very good assessment of where the British army went from peace keepers to the enemy in a very short time.
I still have a hatred for the actions taken by the IRA against my mates who didn't come home but at the same time I understand why the local population supported them. Likewise I try to understand why the likes of the UDA and UVF were formed by the unionist.
The majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to be an independent EU Nation as that is the only "political solution". As for your fallen mates, keep in mind that a quarter of the Police were members of the UDA, UVF, etc. Some of your fellow Soldiers were also in Loyalist Paramilitaries as well. Both the Police & Security Forces were involved in retaliation killings, for example:
A friend of my girlfriend's had family who were in the PIRA, and an uncle of hers was involved in some of the bombings. However, he was last seen in Gibraltar and couldn't be apprehended. So the Police or Security Forces executed her cousin, who was from the other side of the family and was in the Seminary to become a Catholic Preist. They filled him with bullets, shooting him in the back, and little effort was made to investigate, even though the murder weapons were British and not AKs. THIS INDISCRIMINATE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IS EXACTLY WHY YOUR MATES GOT KILLED BY THE PROVOS...
Had the UK made certain that there were no Loyalist Paramilitary Members in the Security Forces or Police, you and your mates wouldn't have been a target. Instead, you unknowingly served with members of the UDF, UDA, etc. The Loyalists now run most of the organized crime in Northern Ireland because they were running most of it during the Troubles...
The reason that the IRA hunted down some of their own men is because they couldn't get them to stop killing. So to support the Good Friday Accords, the IRA had to find and kill their own, men that had seen their family executed as a child by the Loyalists, as they would keep killing until they were imprisoned or executed. This is the mess you walked into, unfortunately, you were unaware that some of the men you served with were killing Irish Catholics or members of mixed families, as well as diverting weapons & ammo to the Loyalists...
@@davidhollenshead4892 Before taking your anger out on me read what I wrote. " I learned about part of the population almost living a white on white apartheid, in my country where all people should have had equal rights. That was wrong. "
@@davidhollenshead4892 boyo, nobody wants independence here. The unionists want the status quo, and we want reunification
Speaking as someone from the Irish half of the population, born after the troubles, it wasn’t so much that people supported the IRA, as they were seen as the least bad option. Growing up here, even after everything leaves you very bitter about certain things. But Quite frankly if the Provos had done what the old IRA did, and not kill civilians then I doubt anyone would have had any objections. Ireland as a whole voted to leave in 1918 and 1920. All of this has been because the British state refused to accept that
@@johnlavery3433 I feel had Brexit not happened over time the Irish and British who live in Northern Ireland could maintain their historical identities in a peaceful united Europe. Sadly for everyone the pillocks see national identity as being more important than all humans working together to make a better world.
Solid, unbiased analysis. Excellent work.
The issue of Irish independence is one that I am sure Mr Moran is very passionate about - so I am impressed with the commitment to being objective displayed in this video. It is clear to me, as a Brit, that he has taken care to produce a well researched and well measured analysis of this difficult time. When I visited the museums in Dublin and elsewhere, it was interesting to see the general disinterest the Nationalist population had in independence in 1916 - it took a level of brutality and insensitivity by the British army to turn a serious but relatively small uprising into an unstoppable movement for independence. The analogy with the welcome of British troops and then alienating Nationalist communities is obvious. So thanks again for this insightful analysis.
The experience of Ireland and other former colonies of britain has always been that british people can never stop being british people.
Well done, as an English guy my first thought as I started listening was 'oh dear here we go again', but no, that was an interesting and balanced vlog thank you. As I mentioned I'm English and I know my country and indeed the UK as a whole has been responsible for some despotic and ruthless deeds during its history, so it was nice not to get bashed by the Chieftain. Happy St Patrick's Day!!
The man's a pro.
As a US Army Civil Affairs soldier, it was pleasantly surprising to see you talking about such a subject. A lot of people overlook Civil Military Operations and I love my job, and love when people show interest in my job, and love when people talk about my job.
It is a very complex, delicate, and flexible aspect of military operations, and in an ideal world, CMO will solve all issues and put an end to conflict, but realistically it only goes so far, and we often have to give up on CMO in order to actually accomplish a mission. There's a reason we haven't been replaced by unarmed civilians from the state department, after all.
Lol
Iraq a perfect example of why you’re needed. Only there the internecine fighting is with tanks and rockets instead of petrol bombs and pistols.
Isn't the idea a contradiction, policemen are what they are because the core of the job is actually investigation. A soldier is a soldier because he follows orders, inline with a ROE.
beyond this a copper is just s working man who knows his community to a point. A soldier knows his squad platoon company regiment and so on.
@@chrisspencer6502 there is always going to be a border zone between policing and military. SWAT teams are police near the boundary, this is about the military guys just on the other side of that line. Ideally it would be handled by specially trained military police, but inevitably they need more people so regular units are deployed and they need to adapt quickly.
@@chrisspencer6502 So that depends on the mission and the scope. In Afghanistan for instance, a large focus of DSCA was the border with Pakistan since we knew a lot of destabilizing elements were traveling back and forth across that border. In fact, we even had a DSCA operation on the Pakistani side of the border, so we were training and supporting both Afghan and Pakistan border patrol. In that scenario, it was much more militaristic. There was not a lot of investigations, there was still some civil interfacing as there always will be on modern battlefields but not to any great extent, and it was not something you'd expect your average municipal cop to do. It leaned way more heavily into the military side.
Comparing that to, say, the deployment of the National Guard in the US during unrest, and that's where you have soldiers supplanting police. When talking to civilians, I like to simplify CMO as any operation where the military are doing a job that is normally the responsibility of a civilian entity. In the case of the US riot response, National Guard units were being deployed to protect property and minimize the presence of rioters as a kind of back-up to the police. In these cases, if the police needed help with anything that actually dealt with law enforcement, the military would take a back seat rather than being the driving force themselves like in the Afghanistan border security scenario. They will do the basics of protecting life and property, and basically just be a presence. If they sense a crime, they would simply point it out to the police and let the police handle it as that would be outside the scope of their authority and outside their level of expertise.
Again, CMO is complex, delicate, and flexible. Just like any other military mission, a commander would have to assess the situation, determine a course of action, develop a plan, and apply their resources. That's part of the reason Trump was pushing for a smaller, more educated force. The US Army is looking for soldiers that are more adaptable and more capable of operating in any number of environments across all the phases of operations from deterrence to combat to reconstruction and stabilization.
An excellent objective reflection on a very tricky subject. I was living in Belfast and turned 11 in 1969 when it all kicked off, stayed Until 1988 then ran far far away.
smartest move you ever made, it's a dump.
"Anybody in the area with a gun or a petrol bomb showed up..."
Ah christ I forget where my petrol bombs are why cant a man find his petrol bombs when you need them
But were they self-igniting, lighting those annoying rags are dangerous! Geoff Who forgot most of his "improvised weaponry" training..it's been forty years.
I understand you can get a petrol bomb from lawyers in New York City.
@@Ciborium spicy
@@Ciborium Readily available in Portland DA even drops charges.
Have you looked under the sink in the bathroom next to the toilet bowl cleaner?
Here in Brazil whenever the military is called to replace or support the local police, most of the population support's them and would rather have them do the police work than the regular police.
Why is that? :)
Is local police considered more corrupt, or something?
@@MrNicoJac since the military isn't local to wherever it is used, corruption is way less present. On one hand that's a pro for using military units in criminal hotspots. On the other hand, if you let military units stay in place for too long, you will face the same problems regarding corruption as in a local police force. It's a blade that gets blunt over time so to speak. Use of the military for policing is a stop gap measure, not a viable solution.
The difference here my friend is that it was an occupying force,I’m sure when the Brazilian gov.call on the army it’s the Brazilian army.this was British troops in Ireland.
@Albert Fels and before it was British for centuries who owned it.you answered you own question.
It is the same in India, central forces (military, militarised police and other investigative agencies) are considered more competent than state and local forces, and apart from the investigative agencies, are also considered impartial.
Well done, I wasn't sure how that would go but very clearly explained backed up with proper research. Unbiased and very Informative.
A simplistic yet clear and balanced explanation of a really horrific situation. Military rather than political, which is only to be expected ... and lauded.
Might I ask that you (periodically) do videos like this, i.e. military actions and a general overview of what led to said military actions, such as the Cyprus Conflict which involved the UN? I know you obviously want to concentrate on the materiel used in these events but you did this 'un so well, it also illustrates the real situations that influenced military development and policy.
If you think this overrated antifa protest was horrific or dangerous to talk about then the 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus following the Pro-Greek coup with all the ethnic cleansing and war crimes would be a goddamn atom bomb
What started as a normal operation to seize some weapons and ammunition devolved into armed conflict with revolutionaries.
Hmm, WHERE HAVE I HEARD THIS BEFORE?!
246 years ago this month
The British really suck at this kinda mission
10:54 There was more than one cordon and search that went down like this in Baghdad, and with the same result.
Turns out door kickers who don't understand the local situation or even worse the language and culture are not likely to lead to positive outcomes in the long term.
Who woulda thought? /s
@@Bochi42 I've found its largely a leadership thing. Depending on whether or not a unit's leadership understands the bigger picture the unit will either be successful or do their best impersonation of a Waffen SS unit. There are exceptions, of course, and how much of the chain of command/NCO support chain gets it and imparts the bigger picture on the lower enlisted will determine this as well.
Each Sgt. Bales serves as a recruiter for the enemy. Had I been his Commanding Officer I would have made him put his blood-covered uniform back on, cuffed him, and dragged him back to the village he shot up. Once the villagers confirmed that he was the one who killed women, children, etc. I would have used an AK to render his lifeless face utterly unrecognizable and left the body for the Villagers, Taliban, etc. to see. That would have prevented the reprisal killings of American Forces & his actions assisting the enemy's recruitment efforts...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bales
@@davidhollenshead4892 it also might earn you a m67 sans pin in your hooch. Have you watched a little Australian film called “Breaker Morant”? Good way to lose the trust of your men.
The enclave with St Matthews church is called the Short Strand
Enclave here, why isn't your video feed working?
A huge problem that reverberated far and wide. Even to here in Australia. Thank you for the brief and concise brief.🇦🇺🐨🇦🇺
I like the look with the Film Noir lighting. It gives your presentation a whole new avenue!
I come back to this video so many times. I loved the delivery, the information and the insights. Please feel free to do more of this kind of thing
"Tactical success, strategic disaster" sums up so many Greek riot police operations I've witnessed. Like the RUC back in the day, they too, lack discipline and proper oversight but do have a penchant for tear gas and violence.
Thanks Cheif! Your short, fair assessment of these historical events answered a few nagging questions that I have held for many years.
Nice to have a documenter who has both a sense of humor and real-world experience in Counter-Insurgency.
Well-written and well-delivered, sir. Thank you.
The Chieftain touching on NI stuff.... Feels great when my favourite channels mention us here, not sure why but hey!
As a subbie 9months out of Sandhurst serving with a Gunner Regiment in BAOR in 1969, we went on an "emergency" tour in Ulster. The training was quite amusing we unrolled the banner we had been given which we assumed said "go home or else" but it could have said "aim here" as it was in Arabic. We were greeted by the "Catholic" population with tea and cake and trying to explain to the blokes why the loyalists with Union Flags were trying to kill them was quite taxing and eventually, the answer I came up with was "because they are c***s" seemed to sum it up quite well. When the situation changed we went from hero's to zero overnight, and sadly we lost the first British soldier killed on duty during Op Banner. I would heartily recommend "Pig in the Middle" by Desmond Hamill. I always thought that in the early days we should have only used English County Regiment in Ulster as they had none of the sectarian problems you had with Scottish Regiments and the Paras are bad enough in Aldershot much less LondonDerry (Derry in capitals so as not to be biased).
Thanks for the book recommendation.
After some searching, I don't think there is any option to get this as an ebook, if someone finds some, please let me know.
@@llllib Not sure how I could contact you but happy to loan you my copy.
@@williamtraynor-kean7214 It may not be worth the trouble sending it between the UK and Czech Republic :-) But thank you very much for that generous offer. If I would ever go to the isles again, I would try to remember to contact you, I was there as a teenager three times in the late nineties(once with school and twice with my dad, we have visited places like Portsmouth, Hendon airfield, IWM, HMS Belfast of course...). Or who knows, maybe someday EU military will conscript me to do counter-insurgency in UK against the British separatists :-D
Canadian Forces would have been even better...
The Crown discovered that the Police Forces were about 25% Loyalist Paramilitary members. The numbers for the Security Forces were unknown, however. All it took was for a few members of the Security Forces to murder Irish Catholics as the Police had been doing and you & your mates became targets...
Because the Loyalist Paramillitarys controlled the organizec crime, they really didn't want the Troubles to end, as it was very profitable for them...
@@davidhollenshead4892 Both paramilitaries were involved with the criminal activity in the Province if you think only the "loyalist" were in evolved in drug dealing and protection I can only say I admire your naivety.
You are a brave man Nicholas :). But that was an excellent assessment, speaking as a Belfast person. "Mistakes were made".
Thanks for the link to that British Army document - just reading through it and it’s refreshingly honest ! Absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in Northern Ireland.
Another great History lesson. I was a teenage at that time and I remember the turmoil. Thank You for the research.
Well Chieftain, I was wondering on this auspicious day how is your supply of almond fingers??
Low. Tragically low.
@@TheChieftainsHatch www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/raspberry-bakewell-slice
Try this recipe 2nd time was a charm for me.
Do highly recommend reading A Long Long War by Ken Wharton.
It's stories from the average British squaddie serving in NI, running the gauntlet from the tragic through to the hilarious.
chieftain can the Welsh get a shoe in next year with a welsh regiment special for st davids day 1st march
Mmm.. Fair question. I'll see what I can dig up.
@@TheChieftainsHatch The two obvious options are the Welsh Guards in Cromwells during 44-45 or Queen's Dragoon Guards more recently (eg CVR(T) during Telic 1)
Looking forward to watching this, the history of the Troubles and full of missed opportunities.
Happy Saint Urho's Day! Urho saved Finland from a plague of grasshoppers. I learned about Urho whilst living at Duluth, Minnesota. Not many Irish folks there. Plenty of expat Finlanders.
Same here in the UP of michigan...
There are a *lot* of Scandahooligans in the northern midwestern US.
I'd actually suspect more than the current populations of all the Scandanavian countries.
@Lawofimprobability friend of mine was in the US Navy in the 1980s, ended up getting in much trouble for showing up at the wrong concert (with free beer) sponsored by Sinn Fein while in uniform.
And stopped by the IRA at a checkpoint they had set up on one of the major highways.
And...
My folks always took a long vacation trip overseas on their vacation. In the late 70’s mom and dad also in their late 70’s took a tour of Ireland which included both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland. Their experience in the Irish Republic was enjoyable. However, when the tour crossed into the north they were frequently asked, “what side are you on”. The question was most frequently asked by those who identified themselves as Protestants. Wherever the folks were on Sunday they always went to church. My family is Episcopalian, which is Protestant. If there was no episcopal or Church of England church available it was their habit to go to the nearest Protestant church. They found that, in Northern Ireland, a Protestant worship service consisted solely of a diatribe against Catholics and the Pope in particular, so they attended Sunday Mass at whatever Catholic Church was nearest.
Nonsense...no Church of Ireland congregation behaved like that...your parents must have somehow found themselves attending whorship in some sort of Free Presbyterian or Methodist outlet.
When members of the opposite religion are actively trying to kill you your family and your friends and undermine and overthrow the lawful government of the country you live in do you really blame people for being cautious with strangers?
@@derekmcmanus8615 my folks were old American tourists on a tour bus. I don’t know which denomination Protestant church they attended. I do know what they heard first-hand and saw. They had no ax to grind, nor do I. Two words one can never use to describe human behavior are always and never.
The core of N.I. unionist/loyalist culture is a hatred of Irish Catholics and very little else. It defines who they are.
An excellent analysis. I spent time in NI both before and after The Good Friday Agreement and now I am totally baffled why the UK government seems to be working hard to open the Irish can of worms again.The British Army in the late 1960's was used to "policing" in places like Aden, I imagine that it was seriously confused by the complexity of the situation in Belfast.
I would love to hear his dissertation about the Arabs and Israelis.
I’m not that insane
The Jewish Population which had been living with the Arabs, Christians & Muslim Palestinians, Druze, etc. were also displaced in Palestine by Jews from Europe. As far as Isreal vs. its neighbors, it is Isreal's Thermonuclear Weapons that threaten its neighbors which are preventing another war but only for a while.
The conflict can be resolved, but only if everyone comes to terms with the history...
@@TheChieftainsHatch Well concentrate on access to water rights and it will be somewhat less volatile/incendiary in nature?
@@TheChieftainsHatch LOL
Happy St Patrick Day
Are you wearing the Dublin jersey just to remind us that ye got the 5 in the row before Kerry? Great video, always love when you do some stuff focused on Ireland.
The presence of a tactical night sight was desired
While all that was happening. The delorean was being built in Ulster too.
As well has FGR2 Phantoms being maintained and Missile test sites.. quite a mad little area when you know what's going on .. along with all the Freemason halls. This year Mark's a 100 years of Stormount too I believe.
The North is known for having a highly skilled workforce & manufacturing base...
A topic I totally do not understand... I appreciate the effort to help educate me on what was happening. As an American this was a conflict that didn't seem to make much sense from across the ocean.
It doesn't make much sense to the population of Northern Ireland as well...
Monty Python reference was well played!
Heroic attempt to be unbiased, and yet honest. Shows it can be done.
this is the most concise and respectful way anyone could tackle this subject. I myself am from belfast and appreciate the delicate way you discussed our violent history. Also, it's very possible that within my lifetime Irish defence force soldiers will be trying to keep the peace in a vain attempt if there is a referendum in Northern Ireland. All Irish history has a sad undertone
Thanks Chieftain and way to stay graceful when things take a ...ya know.
I briefly covered the troubles at university as part of a counterterrorism module (it was 2005 and in vogue). I had a vague understanding of the history in general but hadn't appreciated the initial reception of the British army. The squandering of that initial goodwill was truly tragic, and had tragic consequences for a lot of Irishmen. It was understandable why army officers found themselves by default on the side of the authorities as you point out, but it was so depressing to see it play out knowing what came next.
At the time it was also very hard as an Englishman not to feel deeply aggrieved by the manipulation that resulted in the collusion. I suspect if more people in England understood what happened at the beginning of the deployment to Northern Ireland there would be considerably less support for the unionists.
The majority of the people in the North want an independent EU Nation, as that is the only real compromise. The big reason for the Troubles was that a quarter of the Police were members of the UDA, UVF, etc. Soon the Army's Security Forces were also infiltrated by the Loyalists, which is part of the reason the Army was viewed as a tool of the Loyalists. Too many Catholics were executed with British weapons, without an investigation into how & why...
The Loyalists had control of most of the Economy, Organized Crime, and actually profited from the Troubles. Since the Crown had to cover the costs of the Troubles as no insurance company would, the Loyalists were involved in most of the firebombing for profit. For example: if you wanted your club remodeled, you could arrange with the local paramilitary to have it firebombed when empty. And since the Protestants owned most of the businesses, it was local Loyalists Paramilitaries who did most of the Firebombing for Profit. Now the Loyalists are controlling most of the Organized Crime in the North...
@@davidhollenshead4892 an independent Northern Ireland isn't popular at all lol
@@davidhollenshead4892 What a load of nonsense.
@@36thulsterdiv72 This bloke keeps repeating the same shit. If NI wants anything it’s to remain in the UK like it has for the last two centuries.
@@noodlyappendage6729 I'd hazard he couldn't point to dear old Ulster on a map ffs.
Thanks for the link
Very nice, thanks for sharing. Most Irish people have no idea of what went on and your average Brit knows even less.
Sad but true...
The majority of the people of the Republic of Ireland & of the United Kingdom just wanted to ignore the Troubles. The catch was that in the North, you couldn't ignore the situation, knowing where you can't go, etc. ...
As an army veteran with many tours in N. Ireland, you now have me as a subscriber this was well done.
The Scottish regiments would have been perfectly happy if they had never been deployed to Ireland.. if we wanted to hang around a shitty place we would have stayed at home. . Plenty of overseas postings in the 60s...
I just spat my coffee out over this!
I was shocked to find out that there were still regiments from single locations. The U. S. gave up a similar practice after some bad results during WWII that resulted in too many casualties from a single location.
Britain mostly gave up very localised units after experiences in WWI with "pals" units which resulted in all the men from one town or village being killed in a single action. However there is a level of regional spirit that still exists in a number of regiments. You've got to remember too that Scotland is a different country to England so it's not that weird that there are majority Scots regiments.
@@craigbenz4835 we had county Regiments at the time and even today Regiments get most of their recruitment from certain areas, though those areas are wider than before.
The British Army did have a similar, if not worse experience of what you describe in WW1 when they formed "pals battalions" where people signed up from the same villages, towns and Boroughs to serve alongside one and other in the battlefields of France and Belgium. I think the general idea was that it would make the situation as harmonious as could be and that men would fight harder for one and other because they were long friends and acquaintances. I'm not sure if that worked out to be true but wouldn't be surprised, however any positives were countered by the fact that when a Regiment got wiped out, those same villages, towns and Boroughs lost most of their young men which had terrible consequences back home. To this day the evidence remains when you pass through small villages and towns in rural UK and see war memorials with long lists of young men and boys who never came home. The discontinued pals battalions in order to spread the pain a bit thinner over the nation.
@@craigbenz4835 That lesson was learnt with the Pals Battalions in WWI and by WWII regimental depots endeavoured to spread out a specific area's recruits through the regiment's battalions (which were independent and might well be deployed to different theatres). It was still felt though that there were benefits to having shared regimental and regional backgrounds in cohesion, communication (accents and dialects...) and acceptance.
It's worth remembering that attempts to introduce anything like a US style "pipeline" system met with resistance and in at least one case outright mutiny so in the main the system of depots sending out drafts of men who had trained or recuperated together to battalions (or armoured regiments) was preferred.
A nice one. Again :) Thanks. I had similar issues with my batteries and just gave up on them unless I have no other way to power them, but even then - I go with just a normal car battery and inverter instead of light and camera batteries. Car battery works like charm (even the smallest / lightest one).
Completely unbiased attire lol
May as well be honest about where I was raised!
@@TheChieftainsHatch there's just something hilarious about a serious somber video about Operation Banner being done by someone in that top.
And in any case your accent tends to give away your location of origin anyway mate
You could do more videos on northern Ireland from 69-98 anyway. There's definitely am audience for Irish related stuff on RUclips from our beloved "Irish American" friends
Fantastic scratch in the surface. And thanks for the link as well. Keep it up!
Love the Dublin Jersey.
Well, if you donated me a Limerick one, I might wear it in your honor. Then again, I may also use it for target practice...
Greetings from Co. Antrim & thanks for the Operation Banner document. :-)
The Troubles are the only conflict where the more I learned, the LESS impartial and nuanced I found myself becoming - while I deplore the terrorism of the PIRA and their constituent factions, I’ve never encountered a more belligerently self-defeating group than the hardcore Ulster unionists.
These are the same people who gathered the day before Brexit to rally in support of it, and then rallied literally the next day to protest it because they learned of how it would be implemented, seemingly not having thought much about the consequences of such a thing. These are the same people who threaten to pull out of the GFA, seemingly unaware that they’d already lost the conflict demographically decades ago and the Good Friday agreement protects THEM more than anyone else. They go from loving the government to hating it like a moody teenager. They test the limits of my impartiality with their collective impetuousness and sense of entitlement.
Look at a map of demographic projection of NI in the coming years, you cannot out-procreate the Catholics - your only hope is to ingratiate them and welcome them into the fold away from nationalist tendencies of old - and you have failed to do that, in fact you have aided London in making things so much worse and alienating them further with your policies and temperament.
How can a group threaten to once again pick up arms with such a history of shooting themselves in the foot?
Kudos for tackling one of the most sensitive problems in recent British/Irish history.
I’d love to see more videos from you about Ireland. We never get taught about it in the UK and its totally on purpose.
The education system would rather inform you about diversity and LGBTQ plus issues than anything as prosaic as 20th century history.
@@derekmcmanus8615 Have you been in a school history class in the last 10 years? I can assure you that's not the case. You bringing up that non-sequitur definitely shows your political motives on your sleeve though.
@@derekmcmanus8615they even ignore the obvious diversity issues caused by the sectarianism that had been part of British and Irish history since the Reformation of which the Troubles are just one facet.
@@MonotoneCreeper I've seen what my children have been taught over the last 10 years and quite frankly I'm unimpressed. Why don't you go and virtue signal somewhere else? 🤔
@@neiloflongbeck5705 Indeed
As always, informative and interesting!
Happy Saint Patrick’s Day! :)
superb content as usual
That was fascinating. Need more Irish history to be honest, its woefully lacking for a country with a rich history.
The role of Irish troops on UN Peacekeeping missions would be of interest
The sauce of Jadotsville is epic
@@johnlavery3433 Damn fine sauce.
Near as I can tell the troubles started in 1171 under Henry II.
As a tie in to AFV's ,you should discuss a vehicle that became a symbol of "The Troubles" (same way that the "Huey" symbolized Vietnam), the Humber Pig
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humber_Pig
www.warwheels.net/HumberPigINDEX.html
Let's not forget the Saracen, though that vehicle saw use in other conflicts.
They deployed Saladins for the first few years, wonder what use they had in mind for them, also some Ferrets, also why?
Growing up here, I remembered seeing sand coloured humber pigs etc. Was only very later in life I found out they came from use in the Aden conflict or Emergency as it's politely referred to. Have 1 or 2 pictures in the house somewhere.
@@classifiedad1 I drove mine through your garden.
Not to mention the snatch landrovers...
Spent several years in the Provence. Well explained there without any political bias.
My uncle was in the bogside when the battle kicked off and it was a massive failure on the RUC to not realize that tempers where hot and backing off was a good idea.
The weeks leading up to the battle saw milk bottles and and beer bottles enter the bogside and never returned, people gathering large amounts of gasoline for no reason and the most glaring issue was members of the RUC got told about the coming storm and failed to send it up the chain or just when they did where told "it's not a problem we want to waste time on ".
My uncle used to say the British failed because
"You can't put Scots and Irish on the same rock and not be expecting them to fight, you kill a catholic you've made a martyr. You lose a battle you've made a song. You can't win against them unless you kill them all".
Thanks for the link to the report, as well as the video. Both were extremely informative.
You have to be seen as impartial in peacekeeping/peacemaking or you are doomed to failure. Returning to Canada after a stint in Bosnia, one of my neighbours (Serbian who immigrated in the 80s) asked what I thought. I responded there's more then enough blame for all sides. He responds " good. You're with us". If you can't even been seen as impartial, you will be in trouble.
Excellent assessment, Chief. Thank you.
I think one extra tit bit of information is that the army was so unprepared for the operation their riot gear was still stenciled in Arabic from the operations in Palestine.
Er I think you will find it was from operations in Aden (Yemen)
@@PaulAJohnston1963 still it's a lesson to any army don't do civil policing. Tom Clancy has a great side speak about it when he did a guest lecture somewhere.
@@chrisspencer6502 Indeed just pointing out British Military operations in Palestine ended in the late 1940s whereas actions in what is now the Yemen went up until just before the events discussed by the Chieftan.
@@PaulAJohnston1963 no I checked it you're correct. The next think that's curious is the term 'civil support operation' I love jargon like this.
I've heard it described as a;
Asymptomatic conflict
Counter insurgency
Low intensity conflict and other things never a civil support operation
@@chrisspencer6502 it's a civil support action when it's within ones own borders.
And, in my own country it's illegal to use military forces in civilian policing.
Nicely done. Very respectful of a very touchy subject with no leanings toward either side of the 3.
You should cover Military Reaction Force in another NI oriented video, that'll stir up a right bloody hornets nest.
Excellent video as ever, sir. I would like to accompany this with a pint of Guiness but I don't have any. Happy Saint Patrick's Day from a greek viewer.
Two points:
* Ireland hadn't been ruled from london for hundreds of years, it had been ruled from Dublin castle by the lord lieutenant. This made the transition of power relatively smooth (or at least smoother) since all the people who had been running Ireland (along with most of the laws, judges and regulators) just kept doing everything they had been doing up until that point.
* The war of independence wasn't over the north, it was over swearing the oath of allegiance to the crown. The anti-treatyite forces refused to take the oath and abandoned the dáil in favour of continuing the fight. Seems silly now, but at the time it was considered something worth fighting over.
By the time of the 19th century, the position of the lord lieutenant was a "symbolic quasi-monarchical figure who reigned, not ruled, over the Irish administration". It was the Chief Secretary for Ireland who became the central figure of British rule in Ireland and was answerable to the British cabinet. In effect he was a secretary of state for Ireland. The lord lieutenant was more a viceroy, a representative of the British king in Ireland.
You're also wrong about the war of Independence (or really the revolutionary war as it should be called, as it did not gain Independence from Britain). The revolutionary war was absolutely about achieving the end of British rule in the entire country of Ireland. The civil war was not about the oath of allegiance. It was a very minor factor within some of the ranks in the republican movement that was seized on and played up by the Free state, their church/establishment/media allies to be used as propaganda to try and denigrate and reduce the impact of the real argument that republicans had, namely the war was about national liberation throughout the entire island and so must continue until that goal was achieved. For this very reason, Collins backed the IRA (which initially stayed loyal to Collins and out of the civil war in the southern commands) in the north and continued to supply them with military/financial aid right up to his death and in turn almost all the IRA units in the north stayed loyal to Collins and the pro treaty side believing wrongly Collins' own adage, that the treaty would be used as a stepping stone to all Ireland freedom.
@@EmRon1968 Ruled by the civil service in the castle. Either way the substantive is correct: we weren't effectively ruled from London and the people who did rule us largely transitioned over to the new administration.
Sorry, I meant the civil war, been talking to yanks too much. Funny, the propaganda I grew up with was very much that the war was over the north. The idea that it was over the oath of allegiance came to me from the people who lived through it.
@You are correct But I agree. Apologies if I came across as denigrating those who fought and refused to take the oath. By "seems silly to fight over now" I meant to emphasise it absolutely did not seem silly at the time.
Also, maybe if we had more respect for lines in the sand like that we wouldn't have as many problems today.
@You are correct But the British Parliament had passed a law in 1914 that gave Home Rule (the thing the majority of Irish wanted) to Ireland despite Protestants in the north threatening all sorts of violence. A bigger problem intervened and it was delayed which leads to Easter Uprising, Irish Civil War and eventually the Troubles.
That Jersey The Chieftain is wearing is fucking sick dude.
So, 7-in-a-row for the Boys in Blue?
Oh... yet another great video, by the way.
And Happy St. Patrick Day, to all concerned. 🥳
The Operation Banner analysis, which Nick mentions, is available online as a PDF, as I’ve found.
Never thought I'd hear the Chieftain talk about Rangers & Celtic
I recall many years ago, as a student watching highlights of an “an old firm” football match on TV in Manchester. Others present (more knowledgable on the subject ) pointed out that the views of the crowd were edited out and the camera was focused on the centre of the pitch during half time. Flags emblazoned with IRA at one end and UVF/UDA at the other were apparently the norm then.
@@pf824 been going to watch rangers for 20 years now, but for the first 8 or so of those years, me being young, my dad wouldn't let me go to the old firm games due to the atmosphere. Seasoned veteran now. I love it, when we win. Looking forward to getting back post pandemic
Outstanding video. Clears some things up. Thank you Sir!
Watching documentary footage from the time, it seemed to me that the Army performed their duties with professionalism and fairness to both sides. Their mistake was in aiding a civil authority that had lost any moral right to weld any power what so ever.
A still and maybe even heating up topic good presented, well done!
Perhaps the more accurate statement would be how the politicians screwed up, as usual.
It is forgotten, that the original purpose was to protect the catholic minority, who suffered from decades of discrimination in housing/education/employment to name but a few.
Happy Pat day Chief!!!!!!!
Happy Saint Patrick's Day!
Excellent analysis
Slainte! Happy St. Patrick's Day!
I always found it interesting that no one wants to talk about the article published by the Irish Times about the Irish Army training members of the provisional IRA in what was known at the time called FIBUA.
If you check the date when this article was published, it was carried out roughly a year before the Troubles went hot.
So question is, how else the Government of the Irish Republic support PIRA ?
By jailing them, shooting their members, acting as a buffer on the border...if the Irish government were helping the IRA, they were some shite allies.
"All necessary steps" in domestic deployment of the actual military.
What could go wrong? >_
An excellent piece.
Thanks for the link to the Op BANNER paper I had not seen it before..
It makes salutary reading as it is contemporary with the balls up in Basra and just before the wasted years in Helmand.
The Paras in Londonderry are given an slightly easy ride but Gen Jackson who commissioned the paper was adjutant of the battalion involved.
At 07:50 wasn't it the Short Strand not Short Falls? My father was a volunteer ambulance driver and picked up a lot of wounded over several nights.
your right been in the short strand a lot of times ex ardoyne man.
Yep. My error.
In my mind (probably missing something here but this is my theory) the biggest issue that started the troubles is that the British government saw that policing in an area had failed and sent in the army. While the army was competant in a fight, they had not been trained to uphold the law. What was needed was essentially a complete overhaul of policing and oversight in the region with those responsible for abusing power being brought to justice. While the reports mentioned here sounded like they identified the issues clearly enough, it doesn't sound like they were acted on with the speed and thoroughness needed.
As an English Catholic I honestly don’t know how to feel about any of it
That's ok. It's a messy issue tied ultimately up in several hundred years of politics, English dominance of subjects, and people trying to protect themselves. Plenty of nationalists and loyalists took up arms because they thought no one else would help them, not because of some desire to go kill someone else.
I read that report as part of my degree - British army 1950 to 2000
This makes me think of the whole CHAZ situation in Seattle where the police, in the face of overwhelming public protest decided that instead of trying to maintain control (like the British did here) that instead they would pull out of the region temporarily. They left on June 8th, this created the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone where there was no police. Then they left the situation (despite pressure from Trump tweeting about it) for several days before slowly reclaiming the space over the span from June 16th to July 1st. They did so in steps and in responce to shootings in and around the area before finally reclaiming the original precinct building after a shooting left a 16 year old dead.
It is my personal opinion that the police did the right thing in removing themselves from the situation to deescalate it and then returning in incremental steps in response to events that demonstrated the need for their presence. For example the protesters gave up the encampment at Cal Anderson Park after it became a political liability and they struggled to maintain security. Had the police tried to forcefully retake the space it probably would have been a mess but instead they simply came in to fill the vacuum. Had the police tied to stay in the area from the start by force the protests that drove them out would have kept escalating leading to both potential for physical harm and further damage to the reputation of the police force. Sometimes it is strategically valuable to give ground both literal and metaphorical in response to opposition with the aim to take it back at a later date.
This is exactly what happened with the "Free Derry" area. Protesters put up barricades saying no British forces could come in.
The troubles just boggles my mind, some of these adversaries where on a nickname basis with the bloke looking to kill them.