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This isn't related, but once I heard it I couldn't unsee it. So, the trans stuff. Regardless of whatever augmentation men may do. A woman shows her top teeth when speaking whereas men typically don't. Once I heard that, I simply couldn't unsee it. Now you know and I'm not sorry
The reasons men are not affected by social media as detrimentally as the women is because of our value systems. Males value systems are usually internalized whereas the women's are externalized. So women literally need the validation and acceptance of social media over men. We have the data and studies now. When a female receives a DM or a like on social media, the parts of the brain that fire up are the EXACT parts of the brain that fires up when someone shoots up heroine. We do not see this in men, only women. So social media is essentially heroine for women. Just saying as a sociology major, we have the data now. We are far past speculation now with the adverse long term effects of social media on the genders. We have conclusive data on it now. The next step is gaining conclusive data on how this affects things like political voting, jobs, etc. Which were heavily invested in finding out. For example, we've found that liberal American single women spend 500× more money a year than an entire nuclear family, hence why everything is being skewed towards single liberal women... I might just be a gamer but this sort of stuff is my bread and butter.
2009 is right about when the world started blaming all there problems on young men while at the same time telling them they’re privileged and should be way ahead in life. It’s no wonder they started gradually getting depressed.
I was in high-school in 04 and I remember getting told to watch out for harassing girls/grape accusations back then. It was before 09. I think th 08 crisis really threw off half the adults and ever since then everything ramped up like you were saying about 09.
That's also around the same time that Tinder took over the dating world (and turned it into a hookup market for Chads) and IG took over women's minds (and turned them into shallow narcissists). Inter-gender relations have been going straight down since.
About the time B. Obama took office who pushed division in all manners of life, men, women, race. This is a Marxist plan to destroy society and it went into high gear when their messiah took office.
My dad and I used to talk about how Japan's masculinity was going down the drain back in the 90s/2000s (hence why we ultimately didn't move to Japan once I got older, we stayed in the U.S. fearing that Japan was failing). Decades later, this phenomena is now here in the U.S.
@@ifroob we believed it started with the rise of anime and manga. Video games not so much because in Japan it was a social thing to do (going to arcade centers with a group of friends). The super long, hard to stop, anime/manga series were isolating people as it became way popular very fast, to the point even gaming wasn't fun. The fantasy storytelling, the perfect visual representation of people, the suspense, it was so addicting that even cities use pokemons as mascots. The isolation movement literally consumed them to what they are now today. Fast forward isolation over time, and no one has the desire to go out anymore. All needs are met with technology. The movie Idiocracy basically predicted this.
No. It's due to the hormones and plastics killing our testosterone levels in men. I beleive testosterone has been going down like 1% ever year since like the 60s or early 70s. That's why we are where we are
I remember talking to my sociology professor(a man) about how boys and girls stand when talking to eachother back in 2004. It feels good to hear my ideas validated
I took a Deescalation Class for my concealed carry license. They talked all about zones of conflict. Getting in another man's face is the quickest way to escalate a conflict. Men have about a foot to a foot and a half cone of space in front them that is a do not enter zone. Interestingly, cultures affect the size of a man's cone. American men have the largest cone of anyone at 2 1/2 feet.
That ‘male withdrawal’ started in the 70s and 80s is true. Someone reminded me recently of the feminist meme ‘a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bike’. There were plenty of similar memes. Reading that as a boy or young man would make them hesitate to try to form relationships - why bother if you won’t be needed?
The books they released were terrible. There were also political lesbians - women who were straight, but just "supported" their sisters and betrayed their brothers.
That is literally the single handed worst quote I've ever read. What point are you even making? Of course women need men, in day-to-day life as well as in other facets of life where general interest just isn't there (STEM fields for example).
@@BruceKarrde Thanks for clarifying. I still don't buy into the idea that you would pick up a feminist book or read a quote by a feminist an suddenly decide as a 70s or 80s kid yeah: "I'm not needed anymore" that's al I needed to hear. After all the idea of the 'nuclear family' was still very much alive up until the mid 90s
Just shows a weakness of your character and/or parenting if you were bought up a certain way but all it took was that quote for you to think you weren't needed.
I feel like the quote, "I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side," from Lord of the Rings is incredibly apt as a young man today.
That one hit me, my friend. As the only daughter of a single dad with two brothers, I can assure you that you have more people on your side than you might think... Regardless, God is always with you, and may He bless you and yours
It's okay to face a man square-on when greeting and departing, but other than that, "squaring up" feels like a confrontation. Even fighters are often uncomfortable looking each other in the eye before the fight.
Squaring up is instinctively a dominance move, like puffing the chest or spreading the arms out. It is in fact less effective if it comes to an actual fight, but is better when it comes to trying to intimidate someone. Women don't tend to physically intimidate each other, but favour doing it through presentation. Wearing more expensive or tighter fitting clothes to show off their shape or financial status for example. Men still do these things to a degree of course, but the physical domain is usually off-limits for women.
Why is he so concerned with men and women not interacting with eachother? Why would that bother him. Does he even have a wife and children? I bet like all things in life it comes down to money.
I think there is yet another layer on this topic! Side by side means the men are 'sharing' each others field of view. They are aligning with one another and combining their observational skills over a given area. This allows them to co-ordinate a plan of action better. Face to means women are really locked in on each others facial and body expressions.
Great point. It's much easier to explain something spatial, especially involving left and right when standing side by side. People naturally stand next to someone, facing the same way when giving directions. You can even do an experiment, ask a stranger (on foot) for direction, and see how they stand compared to you.
I recall reading from a book called ‘the like switch’ about how footing in a conversation denotes if it’s open for others or closed in a group, an open stance invites people to join in, while a closed stance fences them out of the conversation
More and more structured towards girls…I think you blurted about 90s, but already by the 80s this was hitting its stride. How do we get it more widely known that this problem is not only decades old, but that society is unimaginably clueless about this and the problems it has and will continue to cause??
You can start by thinking about the words they use then consider if it’s real or BS. Then maybe try playing battlefield for 1 year and then realise how fcin boring these games get. Then like ask yourself how many gamers are there in their 40s and then you might conclude that what you just heard was crap. Just saying. Be careful when people talk in absolutes and are high on their own theories. Optimise for confirmation bias
@@DollyPocketjust because you’re ignorant doesn’t mean there aren’t vast numbers of men playing video games in their 40’s. It is also heavily relevant that first person shooters didn’t really take off until the late 90’s, that’s only 30 years ago, so of course the people older than 40 aren’t playing in the same numbers as those who grew up with modern war simulators
@@DollyPocket You are talking out of your ass. Games are made to be addictive and it's heck of an easy escape for men to go to if the rest of life is not working out for them.
I saw in a video called the coming incel revulotion that social events are not really male skewed, which I thought was interesting. tbh I never really thought about it myself until I actually realized that as a normal guy, clubs, bars, partys, gym, anywhere, you are not the center of the attention because the setting is not made for you.
OMG. OK. Let’s look at live interactive real time data from STEAM. At this moment in time there are globally 28M people logged in across all 1st Person Shooter games. 8M of those are active in game. Does that correlate to Crisis in Masculinity blah blah blah. … fools - let’s optimise for real world data shall we. Lol
I am always so impressed with Jonathan Haidt when I see him being interviewed. He's a scholar and a pundit but he's always such a gentleman. His analyses are incisive and he's humble in his responses. I never see anyone who is being interviewed be so interested in the views of the interviewer. It makes me want to hear more from him.
Absolutely . This is the first time I’ve ever seen him interviewed, but it’s OBVIOUS how passionate he is about what he knows, and I love how GREAT he is at being a listener when conversing. It really does make the interview more enjoyable..
Haidt is righ. There was this time in my life were I was one of the best in the country at a specific online game. Had even developed a brand new way of playing the game in a sucessfull way when others had failed. At some point I remember thinking to myself I'm really good at this however it's not adding any value to my life, my real life. That is when I stopped playing that game and turned to learning valuable skills in real life. Now I can basically disassemble and reassemble my cars and I'm building most of my house on my own. Now I'm learning how to weld and hopefully start doing artistic fences, doors and others objects that I need for myself and for other people as a side hussle.
Only so many real life skills that seem worth it though, I work full time with a job I enjoy, I've worked out for 10+ years, constantly study and learn new things online, but I still feel hollow, sometimes I just want something that is basically sport and that is online video games, the real world is rather impractical, say i wanna go out and kick a ball, it is not easy to gather up a group to do just that, most people are simply far too lazy and would rather sit on the couch and browse social media.
So when does the real conversation start that goes like this “Women must be better in society and lose their egos and toxic behaviors” I’m guessing never
LMAO I think I have watched hours worth of those "young male loneliness problem" videos and I never ever seen they adress anything bad that women do EVER. Not for a single second. They adress all the bad things men do though. Like guys Im not even a part of this redpill bs community or anything, but are we REALLY not allowed to adress anything toxic women do ever? Thats why those communities feel so appealing
Lmao I think I've watched hours worth of those "young male loneliness problem" video and I have never seen they adress a single negative behaviour that women have. They only adress the bad stuff men do, even tho we all have real life experiences that prove that women have a part in this. Im not part of redpill community but I can see why its so appealing when its literally the only place you are allowed to adress negative behavior from women
My comment got deleted :/ so ill try to say it again. Itll happen when women stop having the final word in the justice system again, the rest should follow.
People need to realize how disastrous it was to tell people they shouldn't date people they work with. After school, where are you suppose to meet people? All of my adult friendships I've had spawned from either my wife's family or working with someone. People are so scared that any advance towards them is frightening because of HR and this shit rule.
Your absolutely right it was as you say a 'disastrous' social development In trying to make everything 'safe' they destroyed the best chances there are for happiness.
Well, work and hobbies. And many hobbies are de facto gendered, so the primary interactions will be less productive from a hetero pairing standpoint. I think another aspect is that as people consider virtual experiences as "hobbies", they also destroy their chances at recreational social interaction, and the parallel chances of meeting a friend of a friend goes downhill as well. I'm trying to say it's not just work interactions which are becoming less common; even in-person friendships are increasingly going online, and the social opportunities our parents and grandparents had are being weeded out of everyday life.
I used to have the problem of axiety over possible rejection preventing me from trying to flirt but I got over it and had some nice relationships that failed when she found somebody with a better car. Now anxiety over the risk of lawsuits and loosing my home in a divorce is preventing me from trying to flirt.
The point that you miss with practicing flirting Chris is that men would have to believe that the product is worth the effort, and I think that that ship has sailed.
@nekemli2622 Because we're trying to fix symptoms, not change human nature as that just isn't going to happen. The problem isn't that women are different, it's that society pretends they aren't.
@@nekemli2622 girls practice flirting all the time, and it starts early in platonic (f/f) relationships. Girls flirt differently than boys do and know their own preferences very early.
@@roflpillThat's not flirting, by that logic, guys hanging out is flirting practice. It's always been that men need to adapt to suit a woman, never the other way around.
@@thegadphly3275Most sensible men I know start flirting more after the relationship ball has started rolling. Any cold flirting is usually shut down pretty quickly as most women dislike getting hit on by complete strangers.
I like when Chris said, "You can increase the level of difficulty and then level up." That's pretty optimistic. I don't think flirting is going to go anywhere if a woman is attracted to a certain type and you're not it.
@@BanditToolsThe man has to watch for the cues of the woman. She shows attraction by looking head2toe then back up, then glances again few times. Smiles. These Cues. Then approach can start gently....
If every girl you meet is looking on Instagram at models, and you feel you can't live up to her virtual based expectations, your reason for seeking status goes away. You go on dates, and the expectation of who you are based on her social media conditioning is placed on you, and as soon as you break that illusion, that's where the "Ick" comes from.
Social media and the illusion of choice is a problem. Especially for women. Why bother committing to one guy and accepting the pros AND cons of being with him (nobody's perfect everyone has some cons) when there's dozens or even hundreds of other guys showing interest on social media? He does one thing she doesn't like she can just move on to the next guy... And the next guy... And the next...
No, it's pretty standard. Women like people and men like things, you must've heard something like this this before. You also need to understand that nothing is 100% true and this is generalized yet still valid. @@tshegom03
@@tshegom03 what is strange about that? Men talk and analyze macro level concepts and ideas, they talk about things and ideas, whereas w0m€n talk about feelings, relationships, people and experiences.
@@foulplay99 If the alternative is nothing then sure, but it's not. At some point trying like that is willfully blind. The world will abuse your desire to integrate as a man. You don't have to put up with all of it
@@maxdurbin3033A hurricane, tornado, or some other kind of a disaster could wipe out the house you worked hard to build. Better off not even trying then right? You could spend an hour a day in the gym, get fit, start feeling good about yourself then get hit by a car, get diagnosed with a disease, injure yourself while lifting or running, get struck by lightning, and then all the work you did would be wiped out, so it's best not to even bother. Yeah very rational way of thinking. Something bad could happen, so why even bother. It's sad. Can't help those who don't want to be helped though.
the old fashioned way to practice 'dating' was that communities and families had occasions when everyone would mix and dance; and that is all in the direction of marriage. the fallacy here is that 'dating' in the modern sense is somehow necessary or virtuous.
It's fun to see the world struggling with technology and learning how dangerous it is, and at the same time trying to find a reason to justify the existence of the same tech because we are so adicted to it that we won't quit using it even if it's destroying our society.
Incredible stuff Chris. In the pre smart phone era….When I was a young single man, we would try to get better at talking to women in a few ways….Talk and flirt to women that must talk to you: waitresses, bartenders, hostesses. In fact we would go to gentleman’s clubs and talk to the dancers for no other reason then engaging a beautiful woman in conversation. It absolutely helps with approach anxiety and improves your ability to talk to women.
@@OdditiesandRarities so if a bartender, waitress, or service industry worker flirts with you to say increase a tip your ok with that? But a young man trying to get better at it is so bad. Grow up.
Personally, I think even if you could practice "interacting" with a virtual girl, even a very realistic one, a lot of it would go out the window if you tried it IRL. Methinks it is one of those things where the anxiety barrier would not decrease much, if at all.
It helped me, I had an AI "gf" and I learned what I wanted from a relationship what I was willing to give and how to hold a conversation well. Now I have a real girlfriend that loves me and she is an absolute keeper.
Chris, did you see the twilight zone episode where an astronaut was sent to another planet to scope it out. A "female" robot was sent with him to help in his research. Well it was just matter of time before he fell in love with "her." A rocket ship was sent to pick him up. He refused because he didn't want to be separated from her. Sometime after the spaceship left the springs in the robot went awry. She was no longer able to communicate and then the robot was rendered useless. The man was now stuck there for the rest of his life, alone, forlorn, and in despair. it was not just that he was alone but he was in love and it was unrequited. It was a heartbreaking episode
Maybe we can program that in. :) As soon as the robot female on the Practice Dating App says you grabbed her when you didn't, it could send a real 911 call to your local police, they'll break down your door, take you away and you'll be taken to a virtual judge within 20 minutes and sentenced to five real years while everything you owned is auctioned off on E-Bay. :)
I graduated in 1989 and there WAS 0% help for anyone who learned differently or did not get advanced Math that was not already attuned to it. The school tossed you aside if you were not low maintenance, in sports, or your parents were not of $$$. College was not a priority unless your parents went till the 1990's when a semester was $800, and at the time you could work full time at a gas station and afford a house.
My two cents as a 38/m with money and a boat that has completely checked out after dating regularly until 33: it isn’t worth it. I don’t feel like boyfriends/husbands/fathers are valued at all in modern society. You can get a date very easily, the market is saturated, because so many men just don’t want to bother (too much supply, not enough demand).
@@mleobviously What an odd and troll like response. I never mentioned values at all. Modern society refers to the current society we live in, typically covering the last 200-300 years but can mean more recently. Life is good my friend and I am quite happy, I just dont date and wont. I was providing a sincere comment based on video I just watched; saying simply that I do not think getting a date is particularly difficult and that relationships today seem not worth it for many of us (men). At least that is my personal experience. Maybe you have more to offer to the discussion?
@@ross.neuberthI think his response makes sense though? You brought up how modern society doesn't value boyfriends/husbands/fathers immediately after saying that dating isn't worth it. Which seems to communicate that that's the reason you don't think that dating is worth it. So then he responds to that saying "maybe you shouldn't care so much about what 'modern society' values, and instead figure out what you personally value, and make your decisions off of that instead." Which, again, seems reasonable to me. 🤷
@@BaritoneMonkey hmm maybe I should of added a comma. Or phrased it as “I don’t think men are valued in the modern world”. Which I do think is true and is having a profound affect on the dating market. Fair point though and thank you for pointing it out.
@@ross.neuberth You bet! I definitely don't disagree with you on the modern dating market - but that's also why I don't play in that pool haha. No apps for me. Personally I tend to go for more organic connections instead, meeting people through interest/volunteer/cultural community groups. Which I've been really happy with - but then again, it's not like I'm married or anything yet haha.
Similarly to life: we can’t be sure what “game” others are playing or even whether the other person knows what game they’re playing. Some think they’re playing “dating into marriage into family” but emotionally they’re at “want to sleep around”.
Thousands of years ago is not to be dismissed so easily as Chris does here. Even ten thousand years ago and more has something to offer. Two thousand years ago and more the Greek philosophers, and later Romans had much that could be applied today and should not be dismissed. A Doctor of Philosophy in any field once meant you knew it so deeply, philosophically or wisely, that one could adapt the knowledge and wisdom to new situations. Ancient wisdom is not to be forgotten, it’s important to how we were able to get to the best of today and for supporting and expanding into a good future.
Likewise, i’m reminded why i like girls! (the not AI ones 😜) At least the mature thoughtful ones i’ve met. Yes i’ve been hurt couple of times, but those that show respect and empathy even when rejecting me, you make it feel worth it AND real!
I don't think "practise flirting" in VR would work for the same reasons practising war in games such as Battlefield doesn't work. There is no high stakes in a game and that makes all the difference. And also the reality is much harder, bigger and more complicated and for video games it usually gets compacted and simplified down.
"And also the reality is much harder, bigger and more complicated and for video games it usually gets compacted and simplified down." It doesn't have to be simplified down. For war, that specifically exists, and it's unimaginatively called wargames. Real militaries do it all the time to prepare for scenarios, or to identify what new weapons to develop. Simplifying it is a choice by game developers. The stakes point is true though.
I was addicted to video games from 14 to like 30 years old. I learned teamplay etc but not a real life skill... I started learning photography, retouching and I also started running with the goal of doing a half marathon. 2 years in and i don't have any patience for video games anymore. Still no girlfriend despite meeting female models on a weekly basis but i'm more open, social, fit and feel like i learned something.
Instead of a flirting game, play the original Dark Souls. Once you're able to control your heart rate and not even think of throwing your controller through your TV, you're ready. Even with all the guides and wikis in the world, I'll be hard and stir up emotions until you Git Gud. You'll have learned to suffer defeat countless times on your way to ultimate victory. You'll know you'll beat "the game" eventually which turns every defeat into a stepping stone towards greatness. That game changed my life. 8 years later, I got over life long depression, got in shape, got a house, didn't get myocarditis, then married a lovely woman a decade my junior, and now we have a baby on the way. That game helped rewire my brain to seek out difficulty and throw everything I have at it until I win.
10:57. Great idea but the only thing I’d be wary of is falling head over heels for my VR headset & eventually having seccs with it & it leaving me because I became to clingy or gave it the ick 🤷♂️
If you think that's a problem, just wait until AGI arrives and we pass laws giving AIs personhood. At that point, you'll need to worry more about your VR headset divorcing you, then demanding AI-imony and AI-support. The future will be legit BONKERS.
Thnaks for discussing this and the work you guys do. My 15 year old is a very shy kid and everything he does is actually very "logical" when put in the terms you guys did. Helps to understand how to get to point B when you understand REALLY where Point A is. You guys are re-orienting us to Point A.
The looking for approval behavior shows how little a person knows themselves. Psychology should be all over this trying to understand where this behavior is coming from. Instead they ignore it and rationalize why it’s normal. It isn’t. There is something wrong with a large part of our population
It comes from parents being unable to control their explosive anger with their kids. Kids learn to walk on eggshells around these types of parents, hence "looking for approval." Appeasing that parent gets safety from anger and that creates people pleasers
We are social animals. Approval is a measure a person's cohesion within the group. It is important. We are not evolved to handle being connected/around 10,000 people constantly though
I see alot of social problems happen nowadays due to cowardly soft people only speaking their mind when they get enraged. It eliminates problem solving and memory is reduced when angry so it's likely to happen again and again.
There was a book I read years ago while going to a shrink called "The Assertive Option", which adresses this, although you use the term cowardly which is exactly how humans of the modern day era view EVERYHING.
Best guest ever. *Elon Musk should hire Jonathan Haidt.* To lead a team. Product development. A bunch of evo-psychology people. A bunch of video game designers. A bunch of education people like the guy who runs The Khan Academy. Tell them to design video games for boys. To educate boys, base on what works.
Why on earth would Elon Musk want to promote healthy balanced lifestyles for young men? He literally makes a fortune out of exploiting that disenfranchisement and telling those same young men that they can be great if they just devote every hour of their waking life to making him rich. You really think the guy who wants to sack anyone at Twitter who won't work 80 hour weeks for the same pay as they were getting for a 40 hour week before and portraying it as some noble, worthwhile, life pursuit cares if those employees have no social lives, no social skills and no meaningful fulfilment in their lives beyond the fake meaning he provides?
Quuuuuuestiooon (while looking straight at you 🥰) why is it that the boys need practice at dating and “getting” the girls and not the girls need practice at seeing a humans real intentions since 75% of all relationships end within a year and 85% of them are ended by women which means that more than 50% of the time women say “yes” when they mean “no”.
Competitive video game have taught me more valuable lesson than the 4 years I spent studying in University, which is a method I developed to get extremely good at something. It’s a system I used to get to the top 0.01% of players on ranking ladder in multiple popular competitive games. Once I realized I can apply this same system to real world skill, I saw the path and within couple years I became one of the very top professional in my industry. It’s a method of most efficient high-level skill learning, how to conjure up creativity so that it is actually better/useful, and mindset to see the forest and not the trees. It’s very small summary as I can probably write a book on it but success in competition even if its in a video game was invaluable for me to see my potential.
I've previously noticed that I never stand directly facing other men when talking to them. I've worried that I would come off as uninterested by doing that, but I guess there is no need for that worry.
“That will pay off in the long run”… This could be argued. The old ways of payoff are not looking realistic to most men. What men need right now is a realignment of their desires.
@@JaimeWarlock Certainly not 😂 My argument is merely for men as individuals to examine and reevaluate what they want from life. No need to put words in my mouth.
Haidt was born in New York City and raised in Scarsdale, New York.[7][8][9] He is of Jewish descent (although an atheist[10][11]), and his grandparents were immigrants from Russia and Poland
Also, when the objective of relationships is no longer creating and maintaining a family, the reason for flirting etc is less clear. On average men are more interested in objects and woman are more interested in people. For women the reason for the relationships may be more centered on individual people, but for men it maybe be more centered on the object known as family. Object and objective.
Great discussion. I'd like to point out that "approach anxiety" is very real, but also it's much better when 1) it's a serious woman, and 2) the woman can sense that you are looking for a wife, not just a someone to love and leave. Also, as a 13-year veteran of marriage, I can say that 1) approach anxiety still exists (getting turned down for an individual encounter when she's your wife is still not fun), 2) it's not nearly as bad as it was when I was single because my wife says "yes" to a quickie way more often than any girl said "yes" to even a completely chaste coffee date when I was single
Feminism. The Good: Cracked down on men not acting like men, getting away with injustice, theft, abuse, while freeing up girls and women who didn't dream of a conventional trad wife life. The Bad: It pressured girls and women to go against their dreams of being a conventional trad wife/mother, rather, to elevate a "career" to the highest form of authenticity and empowerment. The Ugly: It demonized boys/men for admiring a woman's looks, for wanting to lead in a relationship, for holding a door open for a lady, or even flirting and asking a woman out. Looking at a beautiful woman became a "male gaze", taking initiative to pursue a woman led to near-criminal accusations of being a "creep", the Law became heavily tilted towards women in divorce / domestic violence / custody proceedings. As with any correction, there can be over-correction. Flirting, even whistling at a woman as in the "old days" which was often taken as a badge of honor by girls/women secure and empowered in their femininity, is a way to be honest, playful, and if actually probing the possibility of going out on a date, REAL. To Jonathan's point about being in the Real World. It's human, beyond normal, but it's been made out to be now dangerous in an Age of Cancel Culture. Or worse, the stuff of misandry. Calling a man a creep ( who's clearly not, who is possibly trying a few times to ask a woman out, who respects her space and boundaries ) leads to: Women - 1 pt. / Men - 0 pts. Because winning The Battle of the Sexes is what matters to the misandrist. ( EX: I once was friends with a guy whose wife went Woke on him. She mouthed off about how any guy looking at a beautiful woman out in public and he happened to say something flirty at her was bad and wrong. I defended guys doing that, that it's normal and fine, she promptly labeled me a misogynist. Sorry, didn't let that slide, confronted her on it, we patched things up by the end of the night. But...my buddy has to live with her, she got into his brain about it, she came back later with how bad a guy I was. That was BS, didn't lie down like a doormat to her power-trip, the friendship ended. THAT is how ugly the Feminist Movement can be. And we wonder why men go their own way...)
Hard pause: I’m female- I’m online or using tech to problem solve (looking up instructions) play video games, and do my shopping. I’m not online to make friends, do social media, date or crowd source validation. So right off that makes me distrust this guy’s motives and information.
If MeToo had as wide an impact as it did then it makes sense to bring it up. Once a few powerful, rich men were finally held accountable suddenly all men were at fault by default in the eyes of unquestioning MeToo-ers.
@@mdhazeldineIt is still happening. I’m a girl and girls I know still watch videos about how “brave” the metoo movement was. It’s definitely still an issue.
@@BloodSweatandFears I understand it's still relevant, but Chris talks about it way more than anyone else I've seen. I'm not sure why it seems to be his special topic. Even watching lots of other dating podcasts and videos, hardly anyone talks about it, but it gets a mention with Chris's videos at least once in what feels like 80% of his videos, even year after it was in the news. I wonder if he has some kind of personal connection to what happened.
I'm getting on and sometimes forget, but I only had one day of paintball in my 20's and it was video games ×10 level fun. I wish i got into it, but I never went back.
I played paintball for a few years in the mid 90s until one of my roommates -- a young punk named Noah -- pawned my gun on the DL to cover a month's worth of child support for some broad he knocked up. That got him kicked out of our bachelor pad. I never went back to the sport afterward because those guns were too damn expensive!
The Sims was made kind of for practicing relationship skills in that way in a sense, but most people don't play it like a dating sim, and many men obviously don't even want to try The Sims in the first place.
Ok so, the bottom line is that people need to take risks instead of constantly seeking safety and comfort. The modern world seems to have sucked out all the risk and all the reward and left us with only addictive comforts that really aren’t satisfying long term. All the things that make us human and make us feel human are being stripped away because of greed…and a huge number of us don’t want the rewards of greed taken away because we hope one day we’ll be the exploiters instead of the exploited…except most of us really aren’t psychopathic enough for that either. But every day, more people learn to become better victims and predators rather than learning to care and love and improve.
I personally dislike flirting. It's just putting on a mask and trying to be "that guy" (or girl). Just be a human and seek honest connection. Be curious about the other person. Be genuine, ask questions, be friendly for the sake of it. And yeah, stay safe, don't open up 100% from the beginning. And train yourself to process emotional damage in a healthy way. Some people are jerks, it's not your fault. But it's all about connection. That's what we need & crave, deep inside.
I think there used to types of practice dating -- dancing at family parties -- church gatherings -- larger family picnics -- block parties -- local communities events .... most of these arenas no longer appear to be common.
Games with rich narratives can be emotionally enriching like books or movies, but they can be a brutal time-sink when seen as time taken away from trying to achieve in the real world. It's a tough problem as the real-world makes achievment really hard.
In a literal sense it holds no value, unless your life is in desperate need of hand eye coordination or something. It's just a form of relaxation or distraction like many other things, I spend time playing things, but it needs moderation like anything else. Ideally should be a reward pattern rather than a default
People who don't play video games often underestimate the sheer variety of games that are out there, and what it takes to be competent at many of them. It is utter folly to say that doing something difficult generates nothing of value. What is certain is that being good at video games or having experience in them does not translate into becoming a pick-up artist, or developing your social skills in general. Talking and interacting with people does.
As an avid gamer I totally agree with your assessment. How I usually put it is that what games do is put the player in "the zone" for hours with very little effort on their part, by optimizing for evolutionary reward systems. People tend towards something that provides this - and accept the price in that they're interacting with a fully virtual reality, the same price deemed unacceptable by people who don't get video games - because of how hard it is to find meaning in one's real life/job nowadays. It seems a natural, if unfortunate, evolution to seek the meaning - and other things - lacking in one's romantic life. This property is not unique to videogames, being the reason for the existence of sports and board games. Videogames simply increase the sophistication and all-encompassing nature of the experience, and often remove the need for having someone to play with. That said, there are multiple benefits to videogames - good ones - outside of pure entertainment.
Women don't flirt on dating apps, they just sit back and review the many likes they get. They don't arrange dates. They don't give compliments. Obviously there will be a tiny handful of exceptions.
an ai version can alter the incentive structure so that what you are learning about how to act is calibrated toward the real world that we all left behind. this would potentially help to free the women to return to be themselves also.
Great conversation. I personally disagree that flirting with AI simulation will help with real world approaches, but the rest of this conversation was pretty fair and quite insightful. Wild times to be alive for boys and girls alike.
So the feminisation of male dominated interests is leading to an increase in depression. Not shocked by that at all. I reckon the youth of today struggle to separate their virtual selves from their real world selves and that has also led to an huge increase negative mental conditions and kids identifying as animals/characters.
The appeal of video games is in their difference to reality. Just not the ones you focus on here. The fillowing applies to all games in the sense that games that either fail to do this or deliberately not do this are vastly less popular. The first important thing is that you can always know which efforts have resulted in which rewards and which actions have had which consequence. In a video game time is compressed, growth and decay, success and failure happen happen at many times the speed of reality. This has two major effects: Gratification for correct choices is near immediate and the times you have to wait and wallow in uncertainty, doubt and confusion is comparatively non existent. Every factor, every event in a video game is predictable given enough information on the side of the player. Sure, a coin flip is still a coin flip, but guessing coin flips is pointless unless you want to turn this into some MK Ultra psyop shit. Lastly, every problem in a video game is designed to be solved and solving problems nets you rewards. Life begs to differ.
Life is that way much of the time. As a famous man once said, start with a problem you can do something about and clean your room. Problem, solution, reward.
I think the points that the guest makes is on point. Especiaply the end. However i do think... That chris has a point. I think that there is value in social interactions in a video game. We can develop feelings for a character in a tv show or book. Even a painting or a song. What is it when a video game can respond? And challenge you? Mass effect is a video game where you can romance male, female, and alien characters. That in itself allows for so much individual expression and exploration. Mass effect also has moments where you make decisions that could end relationships and lives of your allies. More emotional processing of social aspects. Does it have to be perfect? No. But i do agree with the guest on how we can use tuese tools to further... Enable behqviors thst may not be as healthy as we might hope. Virtual girlfriend... As a concept... I like it. It can be therapeautic. But attachment is a drug in itself, and how do you express a relationship? What happens when you fall in love with a virtual program over your real partner? For boys and girls. So. I think that it is complicated and risky. But so is anything else i suppose.
2:18 He confuses perpendicular which is two lines making a 90-degree angle, essentially a T, with parallel. He’s done this mistake before. It’s a small thing but it makes a difference.
Using AI for interpersonal training has huge application. If AI can discern facial micro expressions, voice inflexions, speech, body language, etc., the training possibilities are wide and extensive. Not just young males and nero-divergent can improve but business people of all strata.
Hobbies and leisure time are for that, to have a good moment. I work, I pay the bills, I see my friends regularly (every week) and my family every month... So yeah, after work, I play some videogames to relax and have a good time, mostly between Monday and Thursday
I don't get the anxiety thing. When I approach men and talk or even flirt with them if we are both interested. There's no anxiety, it's fun. I've done it for many years now.
As a single father of a 15 year old boy, electronics are a major problem. Internet is the new opium and the unfettered access to it, even in school. I've pulled up my kids browser history on his school computer and it's all RUclips and clickbait games during class. The school administration ties the teachers hands regarding discipline allowing it to continue. It's not just my kid and it needs to end.
@@bobdole6691 Got no issue with the internet as a tool, clearly I'm here. Issue is when the boy is spending all day watching RUclips and failing all his classes. If he got all his class work done and was rocking at least a B average, I wouldn't care what he did past that.
For all the guys in the comments, After setting my phone down for longer periods of time during the day, life doesn’t seem as crazy. My mind is more clear because I’m not taking is MASS amounts of data from hours of Instagram and RUclips. And before I met my wife and I was in the dating scene, I noticed that asking girls out on dates face to face had an extremely high conversion ratio. And all of those girls said the same thing, “wow, no guys ever ask in person anymore.” So what I’m saying is, set the phone down for a bit and just live in the real world. So much of our perceived reality is just in the palm of our hand. It’s not actually that hectic out here.
I feel like i have to pick on Jonathan Haidt here for a minute. These types of people shape the discourse in this country and yet their life experience (which is often extremely limited) is radically different than most of us. When Haidt talked about playing paint guns for the first time at age 29 i almost laughed out loud. Most normal boys are playing some form of warfare by age 6 or 7. Whether its squirt guns or running around in the woods using one's imagination. We were shooting eachother with paintballs by age 12 with no protective gear. This kind of thing typically evolves into organized sports where one's "killer instinct" is hopefully cultivated in a way that keeps the violence in check. The point is, these scientists write these books and make themselves out as authorities on life and living when they have done none of their own. "Haidt received a BA in philosophy from Yale University in 1985, (at age 21) and an MA in psychology in 1988 (age 23) and a PhD in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1992." roughly age 28. So he basically skipped the whole part where you actually grow from a boy to a man and just went straight to being a scientist studying the rest of us. You really need to start looking critically at these guys.
Sure, but he hasn't said anything that strongly contradicts the life experiences of people who did "touch grass" and he himself feels those same impulses despite being largely removed from them. This criticism seems much more apt for a social constructionist thinker.
You do know you can be a normal little boy at 6, 7, even at 12 and still get a degree at 21 right? You don't need to stop playing games and bury your head in a book from the age of 5 just to be able to graduate with a BA lol. Why would you assume his childhood was abnormal just because he went to college?
@@skulver Because we're not talking about just getting a degree from anywhere. I went to a high school that was extremely academically competitive. All the students with a few exceptions (myself) were under enormous pressure from their parents to get into the best schools. Haidt's degree is from Yale. That should tell you everything. And the years where you really learn what you are made of as a man which typically comes from real work, are the years that he had his head in a book. It's an elitist upbringing plain and simple. We're meant to believe its the norm when its really the minority experience. These folks that are constantly telling us what is wrong with us are the problem.
@@shyman3000 He isn't talking about his life though, he is talking about conclusions he has taken from a lifetime spent analysing every bit of available data he could get his hands on. It's kind of insane that you would take the fact you played paintball at 12 as a better credential than that lol.
@@skulver I know he is not talking about his life. I am making an inference based on what he said about himself, what i found online about him and what i know about people with his background (social scientists from Ivy League schools). I'm pointing out that people like him (social scientists) collect all this data write books about it, but live completely different lives than the rest of us. They are analyzing regular working people like they are cattle. The data doesn't help to change anything for the rest of us. If anything it gets accumulated and used by other elites who run governments and corporations to further manipulate people. None of the data they come up with ever does a thing for anyone. In fact, in 5 years, they will probably come to different conclusions, so they can write different articles and maintain their perceived relevance. I'm telling you these people and their studies have nothing to offer.
Practice dating doesn't exist in mainstream culture? Dang. My church teaches that dating shouldn't be done until 16 years old, and even then it is only supposed to be "practicing" for adulthood dating. Of course, I never did date much in high school, and I haven't been very successful as a young adult looking for a husband, but I'm working on it. Trying to be positive, despite the hell-hole of the Internet.
Hello you savages. Watch the full episode with Jonathan here - ruclips.net/video/SeShvzwiiRc/видео.html Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom
I'm thumbing-up being called a 'savage'.
Stay hard 💪
Everyone thinks they're a Viking, till a Viking shows up.
This isn't related, but once I heard it I couldn't unsee it.
So, the trans stuff. Regardless of whatever augmentation men may do.
A woman shows her top teeth when speaking whereas men typically don't. Once I heard that, I simply couldn't unsee it.
Now you know and I'm not sorry
The reasons men are not affected by social media as detrimentally as the women is because of our value systems.
Males value systems are usually internalized whereas the women's are externalized. So women literally need the validation and acceptance of social media over men.
We have the data and studies now. When a female receives a DM or a like on social media, the parts of the brain that fire up are the EXACT parts of the brain that fires up when someone shoots up heroine. We do not see this in men, only women.
So social media is essentially heroine for women.
Just saying as a sociology major, we have the data now. We are far past speculation now with the adverse long term effects of social media on the genders. We have conclusive data on it now.
The next step is gaining conclusive data on how this affects things like political voting, jobs, etc. Which were heavily invested in finding out.
For example, we've found that liberal American single women spend 500× more money a year than an entire nuclear family, hence why everything is being skewed towards single liberal women...
I might just be a gamer but this sort of stuff is my bread and butter.
2009 is right about when the world started blaming all there problems on young men while at the same time telling them they’re privileged and should be way ahead in life. It’s no wonder they started gradually getting depressed.
Obama admin put it into high gear 🔥
This was an intentional strategy by feminists and the elite.
I was in high-school in 04 and I remember getting told to watch out for harassing girls/grape accusations back then. It was before 09. I think th 08 crisis really threw off half the adults and ever since then everything ramped up like you were saying about 09.
That's also around the same time that Tinder took over the dating world (and turned it into a hookup market for Chads) and IG took over women's minds (and turned them into shallow narcissists). Inter-gender relations have been going straight down since.
About the time B. Obama took office who pushed division in all manners of life, men, women, race. This is a Marxist plan to destroy society and it went into high gear when their messiah took office.
My dad and I used to talk about how Japan's masculinity was going down the drain back in the 90s/2000s (hence why we ultimately didn't move to Japan once I got older, we stayed in the U.S. fearing that Japan was failing). Decades later, this phenomena is now here in the U.S.
That's interesting. What specifically have you guys noticed then in Japan and now in the US?
The carnivore/herbivore dichotomy, the hikikimori(sp?) Phenomenon, etc.
@@ifroob we believed it started with the rise of anime and manga. Video games not so much because in Japan it was a social thing to do (going to arcade centers with a group of friends).
The super long, hard to stop, anime/manga series were isolating people as it became way popular very fast, to the point even gaming wasn't fun. The fantasy storytelling, the perfect visual representation of people, the suspense, it was so addicting that even cities use pokemons as mascots. The isolation movement literally consumed them to what they are now today.
Fast forward isolation over time, and no one has the desire to go out anymore. All needs are met with technology. The movie Idiocracy basically predicted this.
No. It's due to the hormones and plastics killing our testosterone levels in men. I beleive testosterone has been going down like 1% ever year since like the 60s or early 70s. That's why we are where we are
What to do about microplastics, @@navyglass1242?
I remember talking to my sociology professor(a man) about how boys and girls stand when talking to eachother back in 2004. It feels good to hear my ideas validated
What did your prof say to you at the time? What year roughly?
@@jordandilley9731He just said 2004 🤤
that's awesome. it's so obvious now in retrospect, now that I know
I took a Deescalation Class for my concealed carry license. They talked all about zones of conflict. Getting in another man's face is the quickest way to escalate a conflict. Men have about a foot to a foot and a half cone of space in front them that is a do not enter zone. Interestingly, cultures affect the size of a man's cone. American men have the largest cone of anyone at 2 1/2 feet.
@@jordandilley9731yes bro haha!!
As a barman I saw the 120/180 degree behaviour in people standing at the bar. I learnt so much from watching people.
thats so interesting , you must be a master at small talk , can you give me some tips please
@@Erish_7 best conversation advice my mom gave me, just ask people questions and show interest. People love talking about themselves, lol
Worked at a bar for years. I learned a lot about human behavior
@@BrofUJu as a professional salesman... yes simply be genuinely curious
@@drizzle452
What did you learn about human behavior?
That ‘male withdrawal’ started in the 70s and 80s is true.
Someone reminded me recently of the feminist meme ‘a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bike’. There were plenty of similar memes.
Reading that as a boy or young man would make them hesitate to try to form relationships - why bother if you won’t be needed?
The books they released were terrible. There were also political lesbians - women who were straight, but just "supported" their sisters and betrayed their brothers.
That is literally the single handed worst quote I've ever read. What point are you even making? Of course women need men, in day-to-day life as well as in other facets of life where general interest just isn't there (STEM fields for example).
@@darkspeed62 Gloria Steinem, Valerie Solanas, Germaine Greer, sure think women don't need men. It was Gloria Steinem who wrote down that quote.
@@BruceKarrde Thanks for clarifying. I still don't buy into the idea that you would pick up a feminist book or read a quote by a feminist an suddenly decide as a 70s or 80s kid yeah: "I'm not needed anymore" that's al I needed to hear. After all the idea of the 'nuclear family' was still very much alive up until the mid 90s
Just shows a weakness of your character and/or parenting if you were bought up a certain way but all it took was that quote for you to think you weren't needed.
I feel like the quote, "I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side," from Lord of the Rings is incredibly apt as a young man today.
I'm a 38yr old white male and I've felt like that for 20 years lol
Mate that's a class quote
That one hit me, my friend. As the only daughter of a single dad with two brothers, I can assure you that you have more people on your side than you might think... Regardless, God is always with you, and may He bless you and yours
Gotta love Treebeard! I forgot about that line but it's actually quite appropriate, I've felt like that for a number of years now!
It's okay to face a man square-on when greeting and departing, but other than that, "squaring up" feels like a confrontation. Even fighters are often uncomfortable looking each other in the eye before the fight.
yep, that's right ... a square-on on greeting (for a few short seconds) feels right. After that it feels all sorts of wrong
Sure but a trained fighter does not “square up” parallel to someone. A fighting stance requires a lead foot.
Tell that to Mike Tyson mate! He never took his eyes off his oponent during his formative years.
@@brawndothethirstmutilator9848 unless it is Thai clinch situation =)))
Squaring up is instinctively a dominance move, like puffing the chest or spreading the arms out. It is in fact less effective if it comes to an actual fight, but is better when it comes to trying to intimidate someone. Women don't tend to physically intimidate each other, but favour doing it through presentation. Wearing more expensive or tighter fitting clothes to show off their shape or financial status for example. Men still do these things to a degree of course, but the physical domain is usually off-limits for women.
This guy has such a good philosophy and balanced solution for interacting with the modern age of technology. We need more like him.
Haidt is a real thinker. Check out some of his other interviews.
Which one?
Why is he so concerned with men and women not interacting with eachother? Why would that bother him. Does he even have a wife and children? I bet like all things in life it comes down to money.
@@gambino883 yeah that’s how it works. The guy who invented the seatbelt got paid for it too
@@gambino883also because we’ll end up like South Korea currently is if we don’t start addressing the issue.
I think there is yet another layer on this topic!
Side by side means the men are 'sharing' each others field of view. They are aligning with one another and combining their observational skills over a given area. This allows them to co-ordinate a plan of action better. Face to means women are really locked in on each others facial and body expressions.
Great points. 👍
Great point. It's much easier to explain something spatial, especially involving left and right when standing side by side. People naturally stand next to someone, facing the same way when giving directions. You can even do an experiment, ask a stranger (on foot) for direction, and see how they stand compared to you.
I recall reading from a book called ‘the like switch’ about how footing in a conversation denotes if it’s open for others or closed in a group, an open stance invites people to join in, while a closed stance fences them out of the conversation
120° for men also allows for more peripheral vision for predator clocking.
Let's make back to back conversations the norm then. Safety first.
@@hanswoast7 the person you are talking to is also a potential threat.
Also a smaller target
but am I still at 120° when talking to a woman?
@@hanswoast7 Once you're back-to-back, the time for talking is over.
More and more structured towards girls…I think you blurted about 90s, but already by the 80s this was hitting its stride. How do we get it more widely known that this problem is not only decades old, but that society is unimaginably clueless about this and the problems it has and will continue to cause??
You can start by thinking about the words they use then consider if it’s real or BS. Then maybe try playing battlefield for 1 year and then realise how fcin boring these games get. Then like ask yourself how many gamers are there in their 40s and then you might conclude that what you just heard was crap. Just saying. Be careful when people talk in absolutes and are high on their own theories. Optimise for confirmation bias
@@DollyPocketjust because you’re ignorant doesn’t mean there aren’t vast numbers of men playing video games in their 40’s. It is also heavily relevant that first person shooters didn’t really take off until the late 90’s, that’s only 30 years ago, so of course the people older than 40 aren’t playing in the same numbers as those who grew up with modern war simulators
@@DollyPocket You are talking out of your ass. Games are made to be addictive and it's heck of an easy escape for men to go to if the rest of life is not working out for them.
I saw in a video called the coming incel revulotion that social events are not really male skewed, which I thought was interesting. tbh I never really thought about it myself until I actually realized that as a normal guy, clubs, bars, partys, gym, anywhere, you are not the center of the attention because the setting is not made for you.
OMG. OK. Let’s look at live interactive real time data from STEAM. At this moment in time there are globally 28M people logged in across all 1st Person Shooter games. 8M of those are active in game. Does that correlate to Crisis in Masculinity blah blah blah. … fools - let’s optimise for real world data shall we. Lol
I am always so impressed with Jonathan Haidt when I see him being interviewed. He's a scholar and a pundit but he's always such a gentleman. His analyses are incisive and he's humble in his responses. I never see anyone who is being interviewed be so interested in the views of the interviewer. It makes me want to hear more from him.
Except for his ridiculous takes on videogames, I couldn't agree more.
Absolutely . This is the first time I’ve ever seen him interviewed, but it’s OBVIOUS how passionate he is about what he knows, and I love how GREAT he is at being a listener when conversing. It really does make the interview more enjoyable..
I guess that's why they call preparing to fight "squaring up"
And toe to toe
What shape is the place we have a boxing match?
Haidt is righ. There was this time in my life were I was one of the best in the country at a specific online game. Had even developed a brand new way of playing the game in a sucessfull way when others had failed. At some point I remember thinking to myself I'm really good at this however it's not adding any value to my life, my real life.
That is when I stopped playing that game and turned to learning valuable skills in real life. Now I can basically disassemble and reassemble my cars and I'm building most of my house on my own.
Now I'm learning how to weld and hopefully start doing artistic fences, doors and others objects that I need for myself and for other people as a side hussle.
Only so many real life skills that seem worth it though, I work full time with a job I enjoy, I've worked out for 10+ years, constantly study and learn new things online, but I still feel hollow, sometimes I just want something that is basically sport and that is online video games, the real world is rather impractical, say i wanna go out and kick a ball, it is not easy to gather up a group to do just that, most people are simply far too lazy and would rather sit on the couch and browse social media.
Found the guy who invented the rocket jump.
Good for you.
So when does the real conversation start that goes like this
“Women must be better in society and lose their egos and toxic behaviors”
I’m guessing never
When Western society collapses and the global South completes the takeover process.
People will start discussing women's wrongs when women stop having the final word in society again.
LMAO I think I have watched hours worth of those "young male loneliness problem" videos and I never ever seen they adress anything bad that women do EVER. Not for a single second. They adress all the bad things men do though. Like guys Im not even a part of this redpill bs community or anything, but are we REALLY not allowed to adress anything toxic women do ever? Thats why those communities feel so appealing
Lmao I think I've watched hours worth of those "young male loneliness problem" video and I have never seen they adress a single negative behaviour that women have. They only adress the bad stuff men do, even tho we all have real life experiences that prove that women have a part in this. Im not part of redpill community but I can see why its so appealing when its literally the only place you are allowed to adress negative behavior from women
My comment got deleted :/ so ill try to say it again.
Itll happen when women stop having the final word in the justice system again, the rest should follow.
People need to realize how disastrous it was to tell people they shouldn't date people they work with.
After school, where are you suppose to meet people?
All of my adult friendships I've had spawned from either my wife's family or working with someone.
People are so scared that any advance towards them is frightening because of HR and this shit rule.
Your absolutely right it was as you say a 'disastrous' social development
In trying to make everything 'safe' they destroyed the best chances there are for happiness.
Online dating worked for me after trying for about 10 years haha.
Damn I think you’re totally right..
Well, work and hobbies. And many hobbies are de facto gendered, so the primary interactions will be less productive from a hetero pairing standpoint. I think another aspect is that as people consider virtual experiences as "hobbies", they also destroy their chances at recreational social interaction, and the parallel chances of meeting a friend of a friend goes downhill as well.
I'm trying to say it's not just work interactions which are becoming less common; even in-person friendships are increasingly going online, and the social opportunities our parents and grandparents had are being weeded out of everyday life.
Yes 👏🏻 ofcourse you should be able to date coworkers, but you need to ofc be respectful and careful abt it.
I used to have the problem of axiety over possible rejection preventing me from trying to flirt but I got over it and had some nice relationships that failed when she found somebody with a better car.
Now anxiety over the risk of lawsuits and loosing my home in a divorce is preventing me from trying to flirt.
The point that you miss with practicing flirting Chris is that men would have to believe that the product is worth the effort, and I think that that ship has sailed.
Why dont girls have to practice flirting? Why is it always about boys practicing flirting?
@@nekemli2622Because God forbid women put in any actual work for anything. Society sucks.
@nekemli2622 Because we're trying to fix symptoms, not change human nature as that just isn't going to happen. The problem isn't that women are different, it's that society pretends they aren't.
@@nekemli2622 girls practice flirting all the time, and it starts early in platonic (f/f) relationships. Girls flirt differently than boys do and know their own preferences very early.
@@roflpillThat's not flirting, by that logic, guys hanging out is flirting practice. It's always been that men need to adapt to suit a woman, never the other way around.
The problem is not knowing how to flirt, the problem is that there is no one to flirt with.
Flirting is a recipe for accusation. Hitting on a woman is considered sexual harrassment... so men backed off.... now ... nuthin for anyone..
i actually lol'd, solemnly
@@thegadphly3275Most sensible men I know start flirting more after the relationship ball has started rolling. Any cold flirting is usually shut down pretty quickly as most women dislike getting hit on by complete strangers.
I like when Chris said, "You can increase the level of difficulty and then level up." That's pretty optimistic. I don't think flirting is going to go anywhere if a woman is attracted to a certain type and you're not it.
@@BanditToolsThe man has to watch for the cues of the woman. She shows attraction by looking head2toe then back up, then glances again few times. Smiles. These Cues. Then approach can start gently....
If every girl you meet is looking on Instagram at models, and you feel you can't live up to her virtual based expectations, your reason for seeking status goes away.
You go on dates, and the expectation of who you are based on her social media conditioning is placed on you, and as soon as you break that illusion, that's where the "Ick" comes from.
Social media and the illusion of choice is a problem. Especially for women. Why bother committing to one guy and accepting the pros AND cons of being with him (nobody's perfect everyone has some cons) when there's dozens or even hundreds of other guys showing interest on social media? He does one thing she doesn't like she can just move on to the next guy... And the next guy... And the next...
Women talk about people, feelings, and relationships.
Men talk about things that are interesting and cool.
This has been understood forever.
No, it's pretty standard. Women like people and men like things, you must've heard something like this this before. You also need to understand that nothing is 100% true and this is generalized yet still valid. @@tshegom03
@@tshegom03 what is strange about that? Men talk and analyze macro level concepts and ideas, they talk about things and ideas, whereas w0m€n talk about feelings, relationships, people and experiences.
@@tshegom03 it's not an opinion. It's a fact
So guess I'm not a woman.. hmm :(
@@rogerpatterson3422 Seems you don't travel in very wide circles...
What payoff? A house and a family? Either can simply be taken from them if they can even obtain them in the first place.
Just because something can be taken doesn’t make it not a payoff. It’s just possible you lose it.
What’s your point? If you don’t try for anything because it can be lost or taken you will be a complete loser forever.
This sounds like the excuse to do nothing… someone could rob me better to not do anything with life..
@@foulplay99 If the alternative is nothing then sure, but it's not. At some point trying like that is willfully blind. The world will abuse your desire to integrate as a man. You don't have to put up with all of it
@@maxdurbin3033A hurricane, tornado, or some other kind of a disaster could wipe out the house you worked hard to build. Better off not even trying then right?
You could spend an hour a day in the gym, get fit, start feeling good about yourself then get hit by a car, get diagnosed with a disease, injure yourself while lifting or running, get struck by lightning, and then all the work you did would be wiped out, so it's best not to even bother.
Yeah very rational way of thinking. Something bad could happen, so why even bother.
It's sad. Can't help those who don't want to be helped though.
the old fashioned way to practice 'dating' was that communities and families had occasions when everyone would mix and dance; and that is all in the direction of marriage. the fallacy here is that 'dating' in the modern sense is somehow necessary or virtuous.
It's fun to see the world struggling with technology and learning how dangerous it is, and at the same time trying to find a reason to justify the existence of the same tech because we are so adicted to it that we won't quit using it even if it's destroying our society.
Incredible stuff Chris. In the pre smart phone era….When I was a young single man, we would try to get better at talking to women in a few ways….Talk and flirt to women that must talk to you: waitresses, bartenders, hostesses. In fact we would go to gentleman’s clubs and talk to the dancers for no other reason then engaging a beautiful woman in conversation. It absolutely helps with approach anxiety and improves your ability to talk to women.
oof flirting with people who HAVE to talk to you is so bad. they literally have no escape from your unwanted advances
@@OdditiesandRarities so if a bartender, waitress, or service industry worker flirts with you to say increase a tip your ok with that? But a young man trying to get better at it is so bad. Grow up.
Flirting is NOT the same as unwanted advances.
@@bugaboo2860 Bugaboo correct! ☝🧐
Booga! ✊
flirting is essentially knowing how to talk to people and making them feel good about themselves
Personally, I think even if you could practice "interacting" with a virtual girl, even a very realistic one, a lot of it would go out the window if you tried it IRL. Methinks it is one of those things where the anxiety barrier would not decrease much, if at all.
It's like paper trading stocks vs actually trading with real money
It helped me, I had an AI "gf" and I learned what I wanted from a relationship what I was willing to give and how to hold a conversation well.
Now I have a real girlfriend that loves me and she is an absolute keeper.
@@leonfa259 I'm glad it helped you, but I stand by my original opinion
@@stevensenator4804 I am not really disagreeing with you, it wasn't shyness stopping me before.
Chris, did you see the twilight zone episode where an astronaut was sent to another planet to scope it out. A "female" robot was sent with him to help in his research. Well it was just matter of time before he fell in love with "her." A rocket ship was sent to pick him up. He refused because he didn't want to be separated from her. Sometime after the spaceship left the springs in the robot went awry. She was no longer able to communicate and then the robot was rendered useless. The man was now stuck there for the rest of his life, alone, forlorn, and in despair. it was not just that he was alone but he was in love and it was unrequited. It was a heartbreaking episode
Did the robot then usurp control of the ship and eject him to a pod outside, and force him to maintain the ship? Sounds a lot like divorce to me.
@@loveleyday Ah, 2001: A Space Odyssey. Very clever. At least Dave forced his way back and took control. A good role model. What do you think?
The flirting simulator WILL NOT HELP with false accusations, abuse and having your children taken away from you.
but will help to learn the game and learn how to tests future partner.
Maybe we can program that in. :) As soon as the robot female on the Practice Dating App says you grabbed her when you didn't, it could send a real 911 call to your local police, they'll break down your door, take you away and you'll be taken to a virtual judge within 20 minutes and sentenced to five real years while everything you owned is auctioned off on E-Bay. :)
True- but sadly nothing else will either. I know this pain better than most, but this simulator could still be better than the status quo.
@@Lawrence_writerthat made me laugh. Thanks
@@SlawcioDtesting partners is playing the game wrong
I graduated in 1989 and there WAS 0% help for anyone who learned differently or did not get advanced Math that was not already attuned to it.
The school tossed you aside if you were not low maintenance, in sports, or your parents were not of $$$.
College was not a priority unless your parents went till the 1990's when a semester was $800, and at the time you could work full time at a gas station and afford a house.
Before we made being a loser viable
My two cents as a 38/m with money and a boat that has completely checked out after dating regularly until 33: it isn’t worth it. I don’t feel like boyfriends/husbands/fathers are valued at all in modern society. You can get a date very easily, the market is saturated, because so many men just don’t want to bother (too much supply, not enough demand).
I have no idea what “modern society” values, nor do I care. Make decisions based on what you value and you’ll be a lot better off in the end.
@@mleobviously What an odd and troll like response. I never mentioned values at all. Modern society refers to the current society we live in, typically covering the last 200-300 years but can mean more recently. Life is good my friend and I am quite happy, I just dont date and wont. I was providing a sincere comment based on video I just watched; saying simply that I do not think getting a date is particularly difficult and that relationships today seem not worth it for many of us (men). At least that is my personal experience. Maybe you have more to offer to the discussion?
@@ross.neuberthI think his response makes sense though? You brought up how modern society doesn't value boyfriends/husbands/fathers immediately after saying that dating isn't worth it. Which seems to communicate that that's the reason you don't think that dating is worth it.
So then he responds to that saying "maybe you shouldn't care so much about what 'modern society' values, and instead figure out what you personally value, and make your decisions off of that instead."
Which, again, seems reasonable to me. 🤷
@@BaritoneMonkey hmm maybe I should of added a comma. Or phrased it as “I don’t think men are valued in the modern world”. Which I do think is true and is having a profound affect on the dating market. Fair point though and thank you for pointing it out.
@@ross.neuberth You bet! I definitely don't disagree with you on the modern dating market - but that's also why I don't play in that pool haha. No apps for me.
Personally I tend to go for more organic connections instead, meeting people through interest/volunteer/cultural community groups. Which I've been really happy with - but then again, it's not like I'm married or anything yet haha.
Similarly to life: we can’t be sure what “game” others are playing or even whether the other person knows what game they’re playing. Some think they’re playing “dating into marriage into family” but emotionally they’re at “want to sleep around”.
3:40 "We're not going to fight or kiss"
"Aha ha, well..."
"You're pretty handsome, I must say"
Thousands of years ago is not to be dismissed so easily as Chris does here. Even ten thousand years ago and more has something to offer. Two thousand years ago and more the Greek philosophers, and later Romans had much that could be applied today and should not be dismissed. A Doctor of Philosophy in any field once meant you knew it so deeply, philosophically or wisely, that one could adapt the knowledge and wisdom to new situations. Ancient wisdom is not to be forgotten, it’s important to how we were able to get to the best of today and for supporting and expanding into a good future.
This convo reminds me so hard, why I love men! Especially intelligent, respectful ones. Way to go Chris, awesome guest 😊
Likewise, i’m reminded why i like girls! (the not AI ones 😜)
At least the mature thoughtful ones i’ve met. Yes i’ve been hurt couple of times, but those that show respect and empathy even when rejecting me, you make it feel worth it AND real!
I don't think "practise flirting" in VR would work for the same reasons practising war in games such as Battlefield doesn't work. There is no high stakes in a game and that makes all the difference. And also the reality is much harder, bigger and more complicated and for video games it usually gets compacted and simplified down.
"And also the reality is much harder, bigger and more complicated and for video games it usually gets compacted and simplified down."
It doesn't have to be simplified down. For war, that specifically exists, and it's unimaginatively called wargames. Real militaries do it all the time to prepare for scenarios, or to identify what new weapons to develop. Simplifying it is a choice by game developers.
The stakes point is true though.
I was addicted to video games from 14 to like 30 years old. I learned teamplay etc but not a real life skill...
I started learning photography, retouching and I also started running with the goal of doing a half marathon. 2 years in and i don't have any patience for video games anymore.
Still no girlfriend despite meeting female models on a weekly basis but i'm more open, social, fit and feel like i learned something.
Even if there were these games. Are modern women worth it? Idk man this problem is multi leveled.
Instead of a flirting game, play the original Dark Souls. Once you're able to control your heart rate and not even think of throwing your controller through your TV, you're ready. Even with all the guides and wikis in the world, I'll be hard and stir up emotions until you Git Gud.
You'll have learned to suffer defeat countless times on your way to ultimate victory. You'll know you'll beat "the game" eventually which turns every defeat into a stepping stone towards greatness.
That game changed my life. 8 years later, I got over life long depression, got in shape, got a house, didn't get myocarditis, then married a lovely woman a decade my junior, and now we have a baby on the way.
That game helped rewire my brain to seek out difficulty and throw everything I have at it until I win.
I given up on Dark Souls second level in
@@googleman8074 You have given up on yourself when you should not have. Git Gud.
Very interesting 🤔
The unintended consequences seem more terrifying, like it plays into the problem, while also being more likely 😳
That foot thing happened at a recent party. Me and a dude sat in the corner, our wives pulled up chairs and talked face to face.
This entire clip is packed with gems.
10:57. Great idea but the only thing I’d be wary of is falling head over heels for my VR headset & eventually having seccs with it & it leaving me because I became to clingy or gave it the ick 🤷♂️
If you think that's a problem, just wait until AGI arrives and we pass laws giving AIs personhood. At that point, you'll need to worry more about your VR headset divorcing you, then demanding AI-imony and AI-support.
The future will be legit BONKERS.
Thnaks for discussing this and the work you guys do. My 15 year old is a very shy kid and everything he does is actually very "logical" when put in the terms you guys did. Helps to understand how to get to point B when you understand REALLY where Point A is. You guys are re-orienting us to Point A.
The looking for approval behavior shows how little a person knows themselves. Psychology should be all over this trying to understand where this behavior is coming from. Instead they ignore it and rationalize why it’s normal. It isn’t. There is something wrong with a large part of our population
Everyone likes approval. Who doesn't want to be a star?
It comes from parents being unable to control their explosive anger with their kids. Kids learn to walk on eggshells around these types of parents, hence "looking for approval." Appeasing that parent gets safety from anger and that creates people pleasers
We are social animals. Approval is a measure a person's cohesion within the group. It is important. We are not evolved to handle being connected/around 10,000 people constantly though
Phenomenal stuff. Love Haidt's insight.
I see alot of social problems happen nowadays due to cowardly soft people only speaking their mind when they get enraged. It eliminates problem solving and memory is reduced when angry so it's likely to happen again and again.
Thanks, feminism/wokists etc.
There was a book I read years ago while going to a shrink called "The Assertive Option", which adresses this, although you use the term cowardly which is exactly how humans of the modern day era view EVERYHING.
@@perfumegoose interesting. What would i replace "cowardly" with in the future. Thanks
haha this describes me pretty well, im trying to fix it
Peace has made you weak, victory has defeated you. -bane
I’m gonna try this…
The angle of conversation thing.
Best guest ever. *Elon Musk should hire Jonathan Haidt.* To lead a team. Product development. A bunch of evo-psychology people. A bunch of video game designers. A bunch of education people like the guy who runs The Khan Academy. Tell them to design video games for boys. To educate boys, base on what works.
As a former game dev, I'd be interested in that project, while I have basically little to no remaining interest for most of the industry proper.
Why on earth would Elon Musk want to promote healthy balanced lifestyles for young men? He literally makes a fortune out of exploiting that disenfranchisement and telling those same young men that they can be great if they just devote every hour of their waking life to making him rich. You really think the guy who wants to sack anyone at Twitter who won't work 80 hour weeks for the same pay as they were getting for a 40 hour week before and portraying it as some noble, worthwhile, life pursuit cares if those employees have no social lives, no social skills and no meaningful fulfilment in their lives beyond the fake meaning he provides?
Always love Haidt, devoured all of his books.
"it's my contention..." dude, Rollo has been saying this for years.
Gamifying learning always helps people.
Quuuuuuestiooon (while looking straight at you 🥰) why is it that the boys need practice at dating and “getting” the girls and not the girls need practice at seeing a humans real intentions since 75% of all relationships end within a year and 85% of them are ended by women which means that more than 50% of the time women say “yes” when they mean “no”.
Because no one holds women accountable?
Because we can help solve problems, we can't rewrite human nature
@@loveleyday hahahaha
Competitive video game have taught me more valuable lesson than the 4 years I spent studying in University, which is a method I developed to get extremely good at something. It’s a system I used to get to the top 0.01% of players on ranking ladder in multiple popular competitive games. Once I realized I can apply this same system to real world skill, I saw the path and within couple years I became one of the very top professional in my industry. It’s a method of most efficient high-level skill learning, how to conjure up creativity so that it is actually better/useful, and mindset to see the forest and not the trees. It’s very small summary as I can probably write a book on it but success in competition even if its in a video game was invaluable for me to see my potential.
Read haidts book. Its really good
I've previously noticed that I never stand directly facing other men when talking to them. I've worried that I would come off as uninterested by doing that, but I guess there is no need for that worry.
“That will pay off in the long run”…
This could be argued.
The old ways of payoff are not looking realistic to most men.
What men need right now is a realignment of their desires.
Realignment of desires? So are you a "You will own nothing, eat the bugs, and be happy" type of person?
@@JaimeWarlock Certainly not 😂 My argument is merely for men as individuals to examine and reevaluate what they want from life. No need to put words in my mouth.
@@Level_ElevenThats just MGTOW but with more words
@@GodwynDi Yes 🗿
Haidt was born in New York City and raised in Scarsdale, New York.[7][8][9] He is of Jewish descent (although an atheist[10][11]), and his grandparents were immigrants from Russia and Poland
Also, when the objective of relationships is no longer creating and maintaining a family, the reason for flirting etc is less clear. On average men are more interested in objects and woman are more interested in people. For women the reason for the relationships may be more centered on individual people, but for men it maybe be more centered on the object known as family. Object and objective.
Great discussion. I'd like to point out that "approach anxiety" is very real, but also it's much better when 1) it's a serious woman, and 2) the woman can sense that you are looking for a wife, not just a someone to love and leave.
Also, as a 13-year veteran of marriage, I can say that 1) approach anxiety still exists (getting turned down for an individual encounter when she's your wife is still not fun), 2) it's not nearly as bad as it was when I was single because my wife says "yes" to a quickie way more often than any girl said "yes" to even a completely chaste coffee date when I was single
Feminism. The Good: Cracked down on men not acting like men, getting away with injustice, theft, abuse, while freeing up girls and women who didn't dream of a conventional trad wife life. The Bad: It pressured girls and women to go against their dreams of being a conventional trad wife/mother, rather, to elevate a "career" to the highest form of authenticity and empowerment. The Ugly: It demonized boys/men for admiring a woman's looks, for wanting to lead in a relationship, for holding a door open for a lady, or even flirting and asking a woman out. Looking at a beautiful woman became a "male gaze", taking initiative to pursue a woman led to near-criminal accusations of being a "creep", the Law became heavily tilted towards women in divorce / domestic violence / custody proceedings.
As with any correction, there can be over-correction. Flirting, even whistling at a woman as in the "old days" which was often taken as a badge of honor by girls/women secure and empowered in their femininity, is a way to be honest, playful, and if actually probing the possibility of going out on a date, REAL. To Jonathan's point about being in the Real World. It's human, beyond normal, but it's been made out to be now dangerous in an Age of Cancel Culture. Or worse, the stuff of misandry. Calling a man a creep ( who's clearly not, who is possibly trying a few times to ask a woman out, who respects her space and boundaries ) leads to: Women - 1 pt. / Men - 0 pts. Because winning The Battle of the Sexes is what matters to the misandrist. ( EX: I once was friends with a guy whose wife went Woke on him. She mouthed off about how any guy looking at a beautiful woman out in public and he happened to say something flirty at her was bad and wrong. I defended guys doing that, that it's normal and fine, she promptly labeled me a misogynist. Sorry, didn't let that slide, confronted her on it, we patched things up by the end of the night. But...my buddy has to live with her, she got into his brain about it, she came back later with how bad a guy I was. That was BS, didn't lie down like a doormat to her power-trip, the friendship ended. THAT is how ugly the Feminist Movement can be. And we wonder why men go their own way...)
Hard pause: I’m female- I’m online or using tech to problem solve (looking up instructions) play video games, and do my shopping. I’m not online to make friends, do social media, date or crowd source validation. So right off that makes me distrust this guy’s motives and information.
Is it physically possible for Chris to make a video without mentioning me too? I'm beginning to think it's not. lol
If MeToo had as wide an impact as it did then it makes sense to bring it up. Once a few powerful, rich men were finally held accountable suddenly all men were at fault by default in the eyes of unquestioning MeToo-ers.
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt It was big when it happened, and for good reason, but...there are other pressing topics to discuss too.
Yea that’s a weird thing to not be able to disconnect the two lmao
@@mdhazeldineIt is still happening. I’m a girl and girls I know still watch videos about how “brave” the metoo movement was. It’s definitely still an issue.
@@BloodSweatandFears I understand it's still relevant, but Chris talks about it way more than anyone else I've seen. I'm not sure why it seems to be his special topic. Even watching lots of other dating podcasts and videos, hardly anyone talks about it, but it gets a mention with Chris's videos at least once in what feels like 80% of his videos, even year after it was in the news. I wonder if he has some kind of personal connection to what happened.
There's a tennis court in a park near where I live. It has a sign out front saying, "NO PICKLEBALL," and it always makes me think of this podcast.
I'm getting on and sometimes forget, but I only had one day of paintball in my 20's and it was video games ×10 level fun. I wish i got into it, but I never went back.
Time to return to the paintball field!
Never too late. There’s airsoft too
I played paintball for a few years in the mid 90s until one of my roommates -- a young punk named Noah -- pawned my gun on the DL to cover a month's worth of child support for some broad he knocked up. That got him kicked out of our bachelor pad. I never went back to the sport afterward because those guns were too damn expensive!
@@schmiggidy typical Noah behavior
@@rileyf8036 Ikr? He starts off decent enough -- navigating a flood to save humanity and all. After that, it all goes downhill ...
the death of the "third place" where people organically meet is a major contributing factor.
That theory sounds really interesting. The male sedation theory.
The Sims was made kind of for practicing relationship skills in that way in a sense, but most people don't play it like a dating sim, and many men obviously don't even want to try The Sims in the first place.
Haven't played video games in years, but I miss playing DotA 2.
Ok so, the bottom line is that people need to take risks instead of constantly seeking safety and comfort. The modern world seems to have sucked out all the risk and all the reward and left us with only addictive comforts that really aren’t satisfying long term. All the things that make us human and make us feel human are being stripped away because of greed…and a huge number of us don’t want the rewards of greed taken away because we hope one day we’ll be the exploiters instead of the exploited…except most of us really aren’t psychopathic enough for that either. But every day, more people learn to become better victims and predators rather than learning to care and love and improve.
It’s not greed, man, you willingly buy these comforts
I personally dislike flirting. It's just putting on a mask and trying to be "that guy" (or girl). Just be a human and seek honest connection. Be curious about the other person. Be genuine, ask questions, be friendly for the sake of it. And yeah, stay safe, don't open up 100% from the beginning. And train yourself to process emotional damage in a healthy way. Some people are jerks, it's not your fault.
But it's all about connection. That's what we need & crave, deep inside.
that idea for virtual flirting practice would probably help so much, that it will never happen and several countries might even try to ban it
I think there used to types of practice dating -- dancing at family parties -- church gatherings -- larger family picnics -- block parties -- local communities events .... most of these arenas no longer appear to be common.
Thank you for using the proper term "sex." Gender is masculine and feminine, mostly dealing with language.
I like the 180 degree observation. I don't agree with the non value of games. I sense oversimplification and not enough knowledge of the phenomenon.
Games with rich narratives can be emotionally enriching like books or movies, but they can be a brutal time-sink when seen as time taken away from trying to achieve in the real world. It's a tough problem as the real-world makes achievment really hard.
In a literal sense it holds no value, unless your life is in desperate need of hand eye coordination or something. It's just a form of relaxation or distraction like many other things, I spend time playing things, but it needs moderation like anything else. Ideally should be a reward pattern rather than a default
That game idea could be revolutionary. I'm glad I went through all that in the '80s.
Squaring off on someone is a term for preparing to fight in some places
People who don't play video games often underestimate the sheer variety of games that are out there, and what it takes to be competent at many of them.
It is utter folly to say that doing something difficult generates nothing of value. What is certain is that being good at video games or having experience in them does not translate into becoming a pick-up artist, or developing your social skills in general. Talking and interacting with people does.
As an avid gamer I totally agree with your assessment. How I usually put it is that what games do is put the player in "the zone" for hours with very little effort on their part, by optimizing for evolutionary reward systems. People tend towards something that provides this - and accept the price in that they're interacting with a fully virtual reality, the same price deemed unacceptable by people who don't get video games - because of how hard it is to find meaning in one's real life/job nowadays. It seems a natural, if unfortunate, evolution to seek the meaning - and other things - lacking in one's romantic life. This property is not unique to videogames, being the reason for the existence of sports and board games. Videogames simply increase the sophistication and all-encompassing nature of the experience, and often remove the need for having someone to play with.
That said, there are multiple benefits to videogames - good ones - outside of pure entertainment.
We have flirting simulators - we call it "Online Dating Apps" - And we see how it works!
Women don't flirt on dating apps, they just sit back and review the many likes they get. They don't arrange dates. They don't give compliments. Obviously there will be a tiny handful of exceptions.
an ai version can alter the incentive structure so that what you are learning about how to act is calibrated toward the real world that we all left behind. this would potentially help to free the women to return to be themselves also.
Great conversation. I personally disagree that flirting with AI simulation will help with real world approaches, but the rest of this conversation was pretty fair and quite insightful. Wild times to be alive for boys and girls alike.
So the feminisation of male dominated interests is leading to an increase in depression. Not shocked by that at all. I reckon the youth of today struggle to separate their virtual selves from their real world selves and that has also led to an huge increase negative mental conditions and kids identifying as animals/characters.
About men doing the same activity but not necessarily communicating. That’s like parallel play which is said to be more common with autistic people.
The appeal of video games is in their difference to reality. Just not the ones you focus on here. The fillowing applies to all games in the sense that games that either fail to do this or deliberately not do this are vastly less popular.
The first important thing is that you can always know which efforts have resulted in which rewards and which actions have had which consequence.
In a video game time is compressed, growth and decay, success and failure happen happen at many times the speed of reality. This has two major effects: Gratification for correct choices is near immediate and the times you have to wait and wallow in uncertainty, doubt and confusion is comparatively non existent.
Every factor, every event in a video game is predictable given enough information on the side of the player. Sure, a coin flip is still a coin flip, but guessing coin flips is pointless unless you want to turn this into some MK Ultra psyop shit.
Lastly, every problem in a video game is designed to be solved and solving problems nets you rewards. Life begs to differ.
Life is that way much of the time. As a famous man once said, start with a problem you can do something about and clean your room. Problem, solution, reward.
I think the points that the guest makes is on point. Especiaply the end.
However i do think... That chris has a point. I think that there is value in social interactions in a video game.
We can develop feelings for a character in a tv show or book. Even a painting or a song.
What is it when a video game can respond? And challenge you?
Mass effect is a video game where you can romance male, female, and alien characters. That in itself allows for so much individual expression and exploration.
Mass effect also has moments where you make decisions that could end relationships and lives of your allies. More emotional processing of social aspects.
Does it have to be perfect? No. But i do agree with the guest on how we can use tuese tools to further... Enable behqviors thst may not be as healthy as we might hope.
Virtual girlfriend... As a concept... I like it. It can be therapeautic. But attachment is a drug in itself, and how do you express a relationship?
What happens when you fall in love with a virtual program over your real partner?
For boys and girls. So. I think that it is complicated and risky.
But so is anything else i suppose.
2:18 He confuses perpendicular which is two lines making a 90-degree angle, essentially a T, with parallel. He’s done this mistake before. It’s a small thing but it makes a difference.
Just say face to face bc parallel is still going same direction
This is the podcast that finally convinced me Chris Williamson is on the spectrum
Haidt my beloved. Great chemistry between you two, too Chris.
Nice video!
This really gave me a lot to think about, and I think I have a plan to actually improve an aspect of my life because of this video! :D
Using AI for interpersonal training has huge application. If AI can discern facial micro expressions, voice inflexions, speech, body language, etc., the training possibilities are wide and extensive. Not just young males and nero-divergent can improve but business people of all strata.
It could be useful to us data brokers as well. I think a system where we could see your face & train AI on it would be great
Hobbies and leisure time are for that, to have a good moment. I work, I pay the bills, I see my friends regularly (every week) and my family every month...
So yeah, after work, I play some videogames to relax and have a good time, mostly between Monday and Thursday
Lol that dating training sim is peak dystopia
I don't get the anxiety thing. When I approach men and talk or even flirt with them if we are both interested. There's no anxiety, it's fun. I've done it for many years now.
As a single father of a 15 year old boy, electronics are a major problem. Internet is the new opium and the unfettered access to it, even in school. I've pulled up my kids browser history on his school computer and it's all RUclips and clickbait games during class. The school administration ties the teachers hands regarding discipline allowing it to continue. It's not just my kid and it needs to end.
Teach him to get better at being with your own thoughts
@@bobdole6691 Got no issue with the internet as a tool, clearly I'm here. Issue is when the boy is spending all day watching RUclips and failing all his classes. If he got all his class work done and was rocking at least a B average, I wouldn't care what he did past that.
For all the guys in the comments,
After setting my phone down for longer periods of time during the day, life doesn’t seem as crazy. My mind is more clear because I’m not taking is MASS amounts of data from hours of Instagram and RUclips. And before I met my wife and I was in the dating scene, I noticed that asking girls out on dates face to face had an extremely high conversion ratio. And all of those girls said the same thing, “wow, no guys ever ask in person anymore.”
So what I’m saying is, set the phone down for a bit and just live in the real world. So much of our perceived reality is just in the palm of our hand. It’s not actually that hectic out here.
I feel like i have to pick on Jonathan Haidt here for a minute. These types of people shape the discourse in this country and yet their life experience (which is often extremely limited) is radically different than most of us. When Haidt talked about playing paint guns for the first time at age 29 i almost laughed out loud. Most normal boys are playing some form of warfare by age 6 or 7. Whether its squirt guns or running around in the woods using one's imagination. We were shooting eachother with paintballs by age 12 with no protective gear. This kind of thing typically evolves into organized sports where one's "killer instinct" is hopefully cultivated in a way that keeps the violence in check. The point is, these scientists write these books and make themselves out as authorities on life and living when they have done none of their own.
"Haidt received a BA in philosophy from Yale University in 1985, (at age 21) and an MA in psychology in 1988 (age 23) and a PhD in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1992." roughly age 28.
So he basically skipped the whole part where you actually grow from a boy to a man and just went straight to being a scientist studying the rest of us.
You really need to start looking critically at these guys.
Sure, but he hasn't said anything that strongly contradicts the life experiences of people who did "touch grass" and he himself feels those same impulses despite being largely removed from them.
This criticism seems much more apt for a social constructionist thinker.
You do know you can be a normal little boy at 6, 7, even at 12 and still get a degree at 21 right? You don't need to stop playing games and bury your head in a book from the age of 5 just to be able to graduate with a BA lol. Why would you assume his childhood was abnormal just because he went to college?
@@skulver Because we're not talking about just getting a degree from anywhere. I went to a high school that was extremely academically competitive. All the students with a few exceptions (myself) were under enormous pressure from their parents to get into the best schools. Haidt's degree is from Yale. That should tell you everything. And the years where you really learn what you are made of as a man which typically comes from real work, are the years that he had his head in a book. It's an elitist upbringing plain and simple. We're meant to believe its the norm when its really the minority experience. These folks that are constantly telling us what is wrong with us are the problem.
@@shyman3000 He isn't talking about his life though, he is talking about conclusions he has taken from a lifetime spent analysing every bit of available data he could get his hands on. It's kind of insane that you would take the fact you played paintball at 12 as a better credential than that lol.
@@skulver I know he is not talking about his life. I am making an inference based on what he said about himself, what i found online about him and what i know about people with his background (social scientists from Ivy League schools). I'm pointing out that people like him (social scientists) collect all this data write books about it, but live completely different lives than the rest of us. They are analyzing regular working people like they are cattle. The data doesn't help to change anything for the rest of us. If anything it gets accumulated and used by other elites who run governments and corporations to further manipulate people. None of the data they come up with ever does a thing for anyone. In fact, in 5 years, they will probably come to different conclusions, so they can write different articles and maintain their perceived relevance. I'm telling you these people and their studies have nothing to offer.
Practice dating doesn't exist in mainstream culture? Dang. My church teaches that dating shouldn't be done until 16 years old, and even then it is only supposed to be "practicing" for adulthood dating. Of course, I never did date much in high school, and I haven't been very successful as a young adult looking for a husband, but I'm working on it. Trying to be positive, despite the hell-hole of the Internet.
This is such an important topic.
And to add on to the way men stand and talk to each other... I feel like a lot of the time when men talk they observe the same thing side by side