I think it’s an important point to recognize that there are TWO roads being distinguished between the ministry of Jesus by the Spirit and the ministry of Legalism by those leaders opposing him and sending him to his death. The paths of Legalism and Love are two very different paths. Legalism wants justice. Love wants compassion. Legalism wants punishment. Love wants to heal. Sonship is about KNOWING the Love of the Father. That restoration of relationship is not about permissiveness, true. Every good parent wants to see their child grow up into maturity, integrity, and excellence. But good parents are not legalistic, they are loving. Eternal Torment, as well as violent atonement theologies, throw out this paradigm of good parenting, in exchange for some warped concept of God’s Justice and Holiness. But in doing so, they turn God into a wicked parent, not a good one. But Jesus restores our understanding of God as a Good Father, by showing us that God is a Healer, not a Vengeful Judge. And full of Compassion, not condemnation and wrath. How do we not see this in the gospels, this contrast between legalism and love? Why are we allowing folks to re-introduce the legalism of the Pharisee, rather than the Love of the Father that Jesus modeled for us? Eternal Torment is wicked! There is no justice in that idea. Nor kindness. Nor Love. Nor Gentleness. Nor hope. Nor life. Such is obviously not of God. For God is Love! Eternal Torment is not just. And it is definitely NOT loving! It is simply the warped heart of legalism worked out to its worst end. It models the same Spirit that denied the ministry of Jesus and sent him to his death. In his death, Jesus exposes for us the ugliness of legalism, and triumphs over it by speaking forgiveness even from the cross. How do we not see here Mercy TRIUMPHING over judgment, and Love over legalism! Two paths indeed...choose LOVE! Good work! Keep the messages coming!!
Death is the only being in Revelation who is said to pass away in the lake of fire. People are suffering in the fire until death has passed away from them.
Not to mention Revelation is full of cryptic imagery and metaphor that only a madman or a liar would claim to be able to build a theology on. The people to whom it was written may have understood it better, but the best we can do is compare it to Josephus history of the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD (the preterist view), and have the hope that in some way the Kingdom of God will be firmly established on earth forever, amen.
Our God is in heaven and does whatever he wills/hapes. Psalm 115:3 Lexicon, Strong's, hapes: Outline of Biblical Usage:- To delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with etc. Who wills/thelo all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4 Lexicon, Strong's, thelo: Outline of Biblical Usage:- To will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish, to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing, to take delight in, have pleasure etc. The word thelo is in verb form, and it doesn’t lend itself to some form of wishful thinking, it speaks of action and purpose [ie] God intends to save “all” men, or purposes for “all” men to be saved. If it's true that God achieves “all” he wills/desires, and God wills/desires “all” to be saved, then the saving of “all” is what must surely happen. As far as scripture is concerned, If I can't trust the above then what can I trust. Yet, I also have to take into consideration all the scriptures that talk about the destruction and cessation of the wicked. How do I reconcile the two opposing views? Well, the wicked will suffer destruction and they will cease to be when they become a new creation in Christ and have been reconciled back to God. What I haven't worked out is, how the above can be true in the view of permanent annihilation or eternal conscious torment. Peace.
That article isn’t even arguing against s actually CU, it’s arguing against its own made up idea. How very sad. In general, I like to explain CU using the metaphor of parenthood, since God is our Heavenly Father, after all. If my child misbehaves, I would discipline them, but even if they get grounded or even spanked or given a heated lecture, it is for discipline, not merely punishment. What kind of father would decide that since they won’t be good or recognize his love, he would lock them in the basement and torture them forever? It is no less illogical to apply such mortality to God, since he is the one through whom we understand what is good and is THE Good, ultimately.
McClymond does not understand the type of Universalism that Robin Perry and others advocate. He has written hundreds of pages refuting his own warped understanding.
So where does personal responsibility come in? God is good but imo if one chooses not to accept him and constantly sins against him, YOU are choosing eternal damnation not him. What is the point of Theosis in this life if you can just achieve it after death? What is the point in obeying him? What about unrepentant murderers, rapists, pedos? Honest questions, thanks for the videos.
Great questions! In regard to personal responsibility, indeed, eternal damnation is still to be expected. It’s a reality, just not one that lasts forever and ever. Are only trillions of endless years of punishment enough motivation to avoid it? Where do we draw the line? A thousand years? A hundred thousand? A million? Punishment is a reality to be expected, but “ages” (Nyssen) is still enough motivation, I think, to avoid it. In regard to Theosis, is the only motivation for embracing the life of God to avoid an endless life in hell? Which is a greater motivator: avoiding hell or attaining the adventure of unity with God? The most heinous crimes will not be forgotten by God, but neither will the evil that dominates the minds of the men that commit them. Evil will be extinguished, allegiance will be won. Thanks so much for the feedback and questions.
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Thank you again. I love the George MacDonald quote you used. God is Love.. an unyielding Love. So true
And “Love never fails,” 1 Cor 13:8.
I think it’s an important point to recognize that there are TWO roads being distinguished between the ministry of Jesus by the Spirit and the ministry of Legalism by those leaders opposing him and sending him to his death. The paths of Legalism and Love are two very different paths.
Legalism wants justice. Love wants compassion. Legalism wants punishment. Love wants to heal.
Sonship is about KNOWING the Love of the Father. That restoration of relationship is not about permissiveness, true. Every good parent wants to see their child grow up into maturity, integrity, and excellence. But good parents are not legalistic, they are loving.
Eternal Torment, as well as violent atonement theologies, throw out this paradigm of good parenting, in exchange for some warped concept of God’s Justice and Holiness. But in doing so, they turn God into a wicked parent, not a good one.
But Jesus restores our understanding of God as a Good Father, by showing us that God is a Healer, not a Vengeful Judge. And full of Compassion, not condemnation and wrath. How do we not see this in the gospels, this contrast between legalism and love? Why are we allowing folks to re-introduce the legalism of the Pharisee, rather than the Love of the Father that Jesus modeled for us?
Eternal Torment is wicked! There is no justice in that idea. Nor kindness. Nor Love. Nor Gentleness. Nor hope. Nor life. Such is obviously not of God. For God is Love!
Eternal Torment is not just. And it is definitely NOT loving! It is simply the warped heart of legalism worked out to its worst end. It models the same Spirit that denied the ministry of Jesus and sent him to his death.
In his death, Jesus exposes for us the ugliness of legalism, and triumphs over it by speaking forgiveness even from the cross. How do we not see here Mercy TRIUMPHING over judgment, and Love over legalism! Two paths indeed...choose LOVE!
Good work! Keep the messages coming!!
Death is the only being in Revelation who is said to pass away in the lake of fire.
People are suffering in the fire until death has passed away from them.
Not to mention Revelation is full of cryptic imagery and metaphor that only a madman or a liar would claim to be able to build a theology on.
The people to whom it was written may have understood it better, but the best we can do is compare it to Josephus history of the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD (the preterist view), and have the hope that in some way the Kingdom of God will be firmly established on earth forever, amen.
Our God is in heaven and does whatever he wills/hapes. Psalm 115:3
Lexicon, Strong's, hapes: Outline of Biblical Usage:- To delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with etc.
Who wills/thelo all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
Lexicon, Strong's, thelo: Outline of Biblical Usage:- To will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish, to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing, to take delight in, have pleasure etc.
The word thelo is in verb form, and it doesn’t lend itself to some form of wishful thinking, it speaks of action and purpose [ie] God intends to save “all” men, or purposes for “all” men to be saved.
If it's true that God achieves “all” he wills/desires, and God wills/desires “all” to be saved, then the saving of “all” is what must surely happen.
As far as scripture is concerned, If I can't trust the above then what can I trust. Yet, I also have to take into consideration all the scriptures that talk about the destruction and cessation of the wicked. How do I reconcile the two opposing views? Well, the wicked will suffer destruction and they will cease to be when they become a new creation in Christ and have been reconciled back to God. What I haven't worked out is, how the above can be true in the view of permanent annihilation or eternal conscious torment.
Peace.
The Saul in all of us is destined to be destroyed so the Paul can be born.
@@orthodoxuniversalist Indeed. Nicely put.
That article isn’t even arguing against s actually CU, it’s arguing against its own made up idea. How very sad.
In general, I like to explain CU using the metaphor of parenthood, since God is our Heavenly Father, after all. If my child misbehaves, I would discipline them, but even if they get grounded or even spanked or given a heated lecture, it is for discipline, not merely punishment. What kind of father would decide that since they won’t be good or recognize his love, he would lock them in the basement and torture them forever? It is no less illogical to apply such mortality to God, since he is the one through whom we understand what is good and is THE Good, ultimately.
McClymond does not understand the type of Universalism that Robin Perry and others advocate. He has written hundreds of pages refuting his own warped understanding.
Where did you get those images of Christ in the background from?
So where does personal responsibility come in? God is good but imo if one chooses not to accept him and constantly sins against him, YOU are choosing eternal damnation not him. What is the point of Theosis in this life if you can just achieve it after death? What is the point in obeying him? What about unrepentant murderers, rapists, pedos? Honest questions, thanks for the videos.
Great questions! In regard to personal responsibility, indeed, eternal damnation is still to be expected. It’s a reality, just not one that lasts forever and ever. Are only trillions of endless years of punishment enough motivation to avoid it? Where do we draw the line? A thousand years? A hundred thousand? A million?
Punishment is a reality to be expected, but “ages” (Nyssen) is still enough motivation, I think, to avoid it.
In regard to Theosis, is the only motivation for embracing the life of God to avoid an endless life in hell? Which is a greater motivator: avoiding hell or attaining the adventure of unity with God?
The most heinous crimes will not be forgotten by God, but neither will the evil that dominates the minds of the men that commit them. Evil will be extinguished, allegiance will be won.
Thanks so much for the feedback and questions.