The term "civil war" always bugged me considering while it's under the rule of a singular High King, Skyrim has historically been a union of individual KINGDOMS. It's very clear in the TESV we got that bethesda just wanted to do another Oblivion!Cyrodiil and its counts rather than honor the established canon as set by Arena and the lorebooks
...Nevermind the fact that Skyrim's kingdoms have essentially always been at war with one another and Nord culture practically revolves around conquest.
@@scorpiosystem8082 That sounds WAY more badass than what we got in the final product; Small kingdoms that look like villages, every Nord isn't a warrior and worship Cyrodillic pantheon, and only the Bandits seem to be of the old Nordic culture, good thing there's Mods
Your lore rewrites are always stellar and well thought out. Are you still mostly in agreement with your older lore vids? edit: Your vid immediately addresses my question.
To be fair I didn't assume that the nords in Skyrim generally follow the imperial cult. You hear stuff like "Ysmir's beard", "By Shor", "Shor's Bones". The old guy who gives you the Kyne's sacred trials quest says that only city folk follow the divines.
I’ve been playing through a nord character who worships Shor through using the Wintersun mod. Makes me happy I chose the more important god months ago.
I would love to see you redo the Oblivion crisis again based on Morrowind lore focusing more on the false heirs/succession aspect & jungle river valley stuff.
I love your writing / lore - discussion type videos, be it any game. Glad to see this kind of videos return to your channel, apart from the streams. Best Wishes.
14:00 By the time of Oblivion before the Empires decay the Nords held strongly to their pantheon. If anything the only legitimate excuse for the Cyrodillac Pantheon subsuming the Nordic one would be Akatosh physically manifesting in the most populated city on the content causing mass conversions Edit: The Greybeards still should've worshiped Kyne though if any place would be a hold out it should be the order of Monks not some rando Helgen survivor
The problem is that in the Elder Scrolls manifestations aren't really that big of a deal. The daedra do that all the time. The people of Elder Scrolls KNOW that all of these beings exist (aside from how the Altmer reject Talos), they don't need manifestations to prove it. The issue they have isn't whether they believe they exist its whether they are divine or worthy of devotion. Ex: Someone who is part of the AllFather faith would probably not reject the existence of the daedra or aedra but simply would consider them not divine and something else, like demons or something.
@@darken2417 I mean the All-Father faith has a specific place for Hermaous Mora for example. And as should be obvious the Daedra are a different beast (with the same origins) than the Aedra since they easily manifest and directly effect the world regularly due to not sacrificing their energies to create it. I mean so many of the religions are just "The same Aedra but slightly different". And Alduin is very different from Akatosh, to clarify its very doubtful that Mauloch exists as a separate entity to Malacath. The book of faiths (from which all pantheon lore we are talking about originated) OUTRIGHT STATED. That Nords viewed worshipers of Akatosh as misguided fools and that "the dragon"/Alduin is meant to be placated so that he stays asleep. In other words from their perspective as far as in game lore shows proved they were wrong. Hell Nords have their own separate and incompatible origin for Dragonborn/Ysmir (That they are the child of Shor and Kyne instead of Akatosh)
"If anything the only legitimate excuse for the Cyrodillac Pantheon subsuming the Nordic one would be Akatosh physically manifesting in the most populated city on the content causing mass conversions" And even then, you could argue that the Nords wouldn't see Martin becoming an avatar of Akatosh, they would have seen him, as a descendant of Tiber Septim and dragonborn, becoming an avatar for Ysmir, dragon of the North. A good reason for the Nords to convert, but a better reason for them to stick to their own faith
@@cyberninjazero5659 The Nords didn't consider Alduin and Akatosh to be the same being though, they regarded that as a misunderstanding. The worship of dragons would be viewed badly because of Alduin himself (his role to end the cycle) and the history of dragons dominating mankind. They didn't reject the idea that Akatosh might exist or manifest. By that reasoning the elves would be wrong to worship Auriel, even though his worship predated Akatosh's and we still have Gelebor around worshipping him certainly
Keep it simple stupid is an engineering term, not just a programming term. it comes from military machines needing to be able to be repaired in the field by people with a limited tool set. specifically coined by a higher up at lockheed skunk works named kelly johnson
To add on to this you should only start the civil war after dragon raising. Storm clock and imperial sympathisers send messages to each faction that you are dragon born then they send couriers to recruit you. The imperials want you because the emperor’s have always been Dragonborn and the storm clocks want you because you are the ultimate dragon and want you to help slay the dragon empire.
@@sweeners8950 killing the ice wraiths is less about combat ability and more about your commitment to their cause. "We aren't looking for adventurers or mercenaries, we want nords dedicated to our cause" is more how Galmar feels about it. He sends you to the furthest reaches of skyrim to kill a below average foe to see not IF you can kill it, but rather if you're devoted enough to their cause to go out of your way TO do it.
Interesting video, in regards to the nordic pantheon being absent in skyrim, i assumed it was from the empire "gentrifying" (for lack of a better word) the providence of skyrim, maybe in an attempt to try and unite the races of men? Thats why in the cities you see imperial gods but you go to a bandit camp and they shout "BY YSMIR YOU WONT LEAVE HERE ALIVE!"
There should have been a Massive Mead Hall for all the Bandits and Excommunicated in the epic expanse of nothingness between Whiterun and the Eastward brown land's. Filled with guys that told stories of old Skyrim.
@@chisasa9509 Some one needs to make this a mod. A "Barbarians of Skyrim" mod that adds Mead Halls in the wilderness of each hold of Skyrim that are inhabited by Nord warriors that worship the nordic pantheon and stay true to the old ways, would be amazing. Throw in a quest or two for each Mead Hall that is about each of the Nordic gods, add some lore books about the Nords that follow the old ways and maybe adds some Nord armor sets that were in Morrowind but absent in Skyrim, like bear fur, wolf fur, trollbone and you got a god tier mod.
@@smuggrog9821 the Main Quest is Actually a quest for the world's Strongest Mead. It is said to be created by giant's to the north. One sip gets you so drunk you can't move, your game visual gets that mixed effect from the Blood Skooma/ but also buffs your character to take 90% less damage for 30 seconds.
Who's up for a skyrim total conversion mod? Immersive The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Special Edition: Lore-Friendly Edition Seriously, it would be easier to make than Skywind, and those guys made an astounding amount of work in a short time.
I concur. There should be a team that would recreate Skyrim using Zaric's better lore from scratch. People have made mods that repurposed assets like Enderal, so I would like to think that Zaric's vision of Skyrim could be done in the same engine.
"Which unironically makes Alduin his own grandpa." Well, one would imagine that a god of time has the power to make a LOT of bad decisions and confusing-to-explain mistakes. But you really bonked the granny this time, Mr. Evil Dragon Jesus!
its kind of sad that the mediocrity of skyrim has trained us to hate Talos, as the conflict from banning his worship does raise excellent points of storytelling. It gives Imperials a greater reason to be sympathetic to the Stormcloaks, to doubt their own mission of maintaining peace, as their founding God is being spat on. Nords are able point this out, to bring even greater doubt to the political repercussions of maintaining relations with the Empire as the great leader they united under is no longer revered, which then again creates more foundation for the political tear between the two peoples. The more you muddy the waters on who is completely right the more compelling a story like this would be.
always felt it odd how they scrapped the entire pantheon of old nordic gods. one fun element would be adding a 3rd faction that believes that the return of the dragons and a re-establishment of dragon rule to be a good thing, there are probably plenty that look at the massive ruins of the past and want that again
haven't checked Zaric's channel in a few years. Got to the bit about replacing Talos in the WG concordat with Shezzar and then the Thalmor coming back and saying it covers Shor as well. so the whole thing rides on a Snidley Whiplash level moustache-twirly misdirection in a contract like some kind of vaudeville melodrama. like the imperials wouldn't have thought of that with the blend and overlap of imperial and Nordic culture, and the depository of information the empire has access too. makes more sense than the outlaw of Talos worship we get in TES 5 but still not great imo
Yeah, it never made sense to me why the Nords would be upset about the banning of Talos worship at all. They're _supposed_ to be worshippers of Shor in particular and the Nordic pantheon in general. Talos was never really a big deal to the Nords of Skyrim (or, he wasn't until _Skyrim_ made him so); he was the divinized Tiber Septim (similar to how the Roman Senate would honorarily divinize its recently deceased great leaders), and was a part of the Imperial pantheon only.
I do wish they had stuck to the Nordic pantheon in Skyrim, at least for the most part. I play the main questline regarding Alduin, and learn that Kynareth/Kyne gave Men the ability to shout to save them from Dragon rule. I find out that Akatosh gave me a dragon soul, so he's the reason I'm dragonborn in the first place. Then I start the civil war questline, and everyone is on about Tiber Septim/Talos. Who did what? Conquered Tamriel, and probably became a god? He was revered because he was dragonborn, which is awesome, but so am I. I could end up as great or even greater than Talos if I played my cards right, so what do I care about Talos worship? Why is he the top god in Skyrim's eyes all of a sudden? Because he stole Shor's seat? So he's both Shor and Ysmir somehow? I've got other gods I can worship. I don't need to kill Skyrim's countrymen because the Empire was forced to ban one of their nine gods, so the Thalmor are rounding up Talos worshipers and killing them. I'm sure half of Skyrim will be real grateful the Stormcloaks kicked the Thalmor out, right after they killed the other half of Skyrim's citizens.
Ironically, nowhere is it stated that you need to worship Shor to enter Sovngarde. Only 1) be a Nord and 2) die in honorable combat. Before Morrowind, no one had any idea how to enter Sovngarde in the first place.
@@ZhakaronI don't think Sovngarde was originally even meant to be a general afterlife. The guy mentioned in "Sovngarde, a Reexamination", Rolf the Large, was just as clueless as Ulfgar and thought Sovngarde was a physical place. He only discovered the truth by accident. Sovngarde is described as an object of questing for a brave warrior, like the Holy Grail or the Fountain of Youth, not an afterlife everyone wants to enter. It was only Skyrim that changed it to Valhalla.
@@Zhakaron Yeah, I know. I'm honestly not even arguing; just noting changes between the games. My headcanon is that Sovngarde isn't even in Aetherius (and I can't find a source for it being there) because Lorkhan is bound to Mundus (see Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi). He started it because he wanted to gather an army for the final battle against the Aldmer.
Can't believe I never thought about this. This idea would make the whole civil war feel WAY more impactful. Banning Talos always seemed like arbitrary pettiness in the original game to me "We don't like the idea that a human could become a god!" but banning a god that once marched against them and is specifically in charge of there afterlife? Now that makes a lot more sense given there endgame and would infuriate the Nords FAR more than banning Talos because "Humie god bad!"
The problem with modern Bethesda writers is that they want to take the fantasy out of the game, going for the "who knows if Gods are even real" when in both the lore and previous games you were literally aided by the very literal manifestation of said gods. Basically, they want to turn the lore into their "edgy atheist" version of them, regardless of if the lore supports this or not Same as with Dragon Age and how now everything is about the great elven gods, who are not actually gods, and who knows if the Maker exists etc etc when you have spirits marching around, etc. They reduced everything to "the elves did it" rational explanation, erasing the Grey Warden's importance, the eldritch body horror of the highly infectious Taint and the Qunari's identity and unique view of life, the mystery of magic the dwarves origins, the mystery of if the Maker's city and if the Taint were actually curses/originated from it. They just turned it into boring fantasy MMORPG hidding inside the corpse of what was Dragon Age. Basically, they forgot that in fantasy it is allowed to not have all the answers
Considering prayer to them grants you actual literal boons (not even counting the Daedra whom are most DEFINITELY real to the point of talking to you and giving you fancy gubbins) and some, like Dibella and Mara, have entire questlines where at the end you're granted a permanent power-up of the God's favour? I'm pretty sure the games still firmly take the stance that the Gods are real, just because they don't descend from on high to personally present you with help or directly speak to you doesn't mean they're not present.
@@legateelizabeth But the thing is, they DID come back as literal physical beings to help you sometimes, even talked to you. Now is all "Oh Dibella wants me to thank you!" "Did you see the priest who thinks the goddess speaks to her? The nerve!" Like the Aedra talked with people all the time, they literally fought against each other's pantheon, we SEE THEM in some games, people shouldn't be reacting as if it's thats rare or wondering if gods actually talk with people. The fact that we can battle Tsun but not talk to Shor or other Aedra to put the "oOoOoO mystery, does the high Aedra like Shor or Akatosh really exist?" in Skyrim is just stupid.
@@Artemisarrowzz As I said, their powers are definitely here. They just don't appear physically, that's not trying to 'atheistify' the setting it's just... not having the Aedra speak to you directly. Which might have more to do with writing conventions than a religious stance. If you're the Last Dragonborn, and the Aedra can manifest, why doesn't Talos just show up to fix it himself? He's a Dragonborn, he could do it. Now sure there _are_ lore explanations behind this but think of your average consumer: they know what a Deus Ex Machina is, if the Deus-es are here why wouldn't they be Machina-ing? In the last game someone turned into a Dragon God to beat the snot out of Mehrunes Dagon, why can't Akatosh just manifest through me to beat the snot out of Alduin? It's easier to avoid these questions that would need answering through more exposition by just having the Gods be a little more hands-off (save for literally you, of course) than having to tackle them in a game where a lot of people are entering the series for the first time and are already needing to learn an entire world, history both of prior games and generally, and learn a lot of Proper Nouns. Maybe this is more an "eye of the beholder" type thing though, where the reasons we imagine say more about the person than the work. I'm an actual irl polytheist so "the Gods' effects are here, doubly so if you do works for them" (though unfortunately no amount of dedication is going to give me +15% damage against the opposite sex) is pretty in-line with how I *actually* experience religion and my (to me, at least) very real Gods.
@@legateelizabeth Dude, in earlier games we talked to aspects Talos, to Akatosh, to Mara etc. Literally. Face to face. They sent us themselves to quests, gave us the rewards themselves. NOBODY questioned their power or existance because just like the Daedra, they were just there. They don't show up themselves for the same reason the Daedra don't do their own quests, even being able to perfectly do such thing: the point of the adventure (in lore) is to free people from the chains of their existance. To love everything and everyone, to understand that the people in the world aren't "real" so much as playing a role inside a game, but still love them and understand who and why they are, finally escaping and becoming a word themselves. That's why Lorkhan created the world, to help them CHIM, that's why suffering is allowed, to become stronger than it. If the gods did their quest themselves and everything was done for mortals, then how would mortals ever understand that they are in a game or that their existance isn't real, just like Vivec and so many others did? How would they grow and escape reality to give birth to more life, instead of perpetually breaking down into lesser souls until nothing remains like the Aedra? Making the gods of TES leave the scene for the sake of the "new players", instead of properly writing them in the lore is just an excuse to be lazy, rush their prodruct and make it as generic as possible. But what you have to understand is that Tamriel is not our world. It's fantasy. Let fantasy be fantasy, with it's own rules, capricious gods and evil demons.
@@Artemisarrowzz Yeah, I'm fully aware, that's why I said "there _are_ explanations for why they don't", you don't need to explain that to me; but most people don't want to snort enough moon sugar to deal with understanding literally otherworldy metaphysics and theology in their fantasy romp, they won't WANT the answers to those questions. Yeah, it's watering it down for lowest common denominator, sure, be mad about that, there's a thousand videos on that for both gameplay and story. But I highly doubt it's for some nefarious "divine erasure" type reasons; like you said here, probably more just "more easily consumed product", which is the point I was trying to get across.
Here's an idea: - to add even more cultural variety to Skyrim, let's make Markarth mostly Breton with Imperial and Nord influences, also add Dunmer influences to Windhelm
The Reach should be the most cosmopolitan hold in Skyrim as described in the 1st pocket guide, where nords barely hold the majority. There should be villages of reachmen instead of just forsworn, who are essentially reskinned bandits
Talos/Tiber Septim wronged the Altmer, it makes sense for them to hate him and want him to not be worshipped. He is a more modern enemy than Shor/Shezzar so it makes sense that the humiliation is fresh on their minds. I am not saying your idea is wrong but it should include the banning of worship of Talos.
@@Zhakaron I think if you are going to have that concept then you have to actually come up with the clever bit of language or terms that players could find convincing. I'd be interested to know what specifically you'd come up with, as if anyone would have the depth of knowledge on the lore it would be you.
I played through the civil war with my first character and again years later...only twice in 600+ hours for the original release and 300 for the special edition, I've replayed everything else so many time except the main quest and civil war, the main quest I think I did a hand full of times I dunno i just started ignoring it. Your version sounds much more personal for a Nord story.
talking about thalmor... got thinking... was ancano right? would he really be able to unmake the world with the eye of magnus... just didn't got convinced...
Is there anyone in the game, or any book, that mentions Shor, while talking about the Talos ban? I know the community believes that Tiber Septim became Shor, but I'm not sure that's common knowledge in universe. Hiemskr isn't preaching in Whiterun about how Nords need to keep worshiping Shor, or they might not enter Sovngard.
*m i g h t y t a l o s* 🤣🤣🤣 This video was gr8. (And so he returns! With lore! xD) Nordic Skyrim and Jungle Cyrodiil will exist forever in my heart. BGS why. That lore was so cool, why'd you not use it... ; _ ;
Zaric, I remember a video where you broke down the Skyrim Civil War and how ultimately both sides are screwed unless there was another Dragonborn emperor or leader. What is the name of this video? It’s been years and I’d love to listen again
One thing im thinking about The common man Wouldnt care about shezzar, but shezzar is Probably very important for the nibense battlemage class and the Colovians worship Shor so I'm not sure the imperial ruling class Would be United in thinking its an easy concession. The trader aristocracy would Probably be for it and they could be in the majority and most powerful at the time so the new concordat could still be made, but I think many powerful people in Cyrodiil would try to resist before they find the small print and think they'd find it out quickly as well because of Colovias nordic heritage and that they worship Shezzar as Shor so I think the issue would come up. Does not matter that much for the story of Skyrim I guess and you could just change details like the Return of the Colovian estates or at least a major rebellion kinda like in Skyrim and a Nibenese battlemage guerrilla or Something like that. Think that would also be a decent reason for the Justicar to enter the empire to protect the concordats upholding because the imperial government isn't able to in any of their regions according to the Thalmor, and they would be kinda correct because there would be violent conflicts pretty much everywhere in the empire except in High Rock
It’s funny how people really think ‘imperialization’ just explains the disappearance of a religion. Like we still remember religions that existed millions of years ago and guess what? The ethnic people of those religions still worship those old religions! They are just no longer the majority, religion doesn’t just disappear.
Alduin veing his own grandfather makes perfect sense with him being one part of the free faced time god of cyclical creation sustainment and desteuction actually. But that would be cool lore, so Betheshda couldnt possibly write it.
Hi man, wish you'd do more of these kinds of videos. I really like the and they make whole lot of sense than what we got in the vanilla ESV. Dunno if you do these kind of talk/rant on stream as I don't watch live streams.
Didn't Mannimarco intentionally achieve partial Chim evidenced with the creation of the Necromancer's Moon as part of the Lunar cycle? And the Champion of Cyrodil mantling Sheogorath and also achieving Chim?
The aspects of Shezarr, Shezarrines like Zurin Arctus, Tiber Septim and Wulfharth combined into a oversoul Talos which was able to mantle his place as the Ninth divine in the Imperial Pantheon.
This rewrite is a lot more interesting than the "muh talos" stuff. It places a lot more importance on the man vs mer predicament, influencing the races to remember their old traditions, and to deviate from the Imperial pantheon. Bethesda should seriously hire you to fix the lore.
In few words:
- Let's turn the civil war into an holy war.
- Actual Nordic Nords
Well to me it is "lets make the whole civil war grounded and based on the reality of people in Skyrim".
Also in few worths: MAIGHTY THALOS
The impassioned Zharic lore rants vs the "Skyrim is about dragons" Bethesda.
The term "civil war" always bugged me considering while it's under the rule of a singular High King, Skyrim has historically been a union of individual KINGDOMS. It's very clear in the TESV we got that bethesda just wanted to do another Oblivion!Cyrodiil and its counts rather than honor the established canon as set by Arena and the lorebooks
...Nevermind the fact that Skyrim's kingdoms have essentially always been at war with one another and Nord culture practically revolves around conquest.
@@scorpiosystem8082 That sounds WAY more badass than what we got in the final product; Small kingdoms that look like villages, every Nord isn't a warrior and worship Cyrodillic pantheon, and only the Bandits seem to be of the old Nordic culture, good thing there's Mods
Sounds kinda like America. How it used to be "these United States" but then you call it the American Civil War.
I didn't know that the nine holds were originally supposed to be different kingdoms. That would definitely change things.
the nord kings I mean jarls
THE LORE RETURNS :)
But... I MuSt HoNoR mIgHtY tAlOs
Should be a 👕 from Zaric.
sHOr haVE MeRcY oN yOU!
I heard it as migThy Ttalos. For some reason it is the T's that is capitalized in my head 🤣
SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS
bY ySmIr YoU wOnT lEaVe HeRe AlIvE
As pedantic and thorough as usual. Good to see you're getting back into the essay style videos, they've always been my main draw to your channel.
The fact you can replace Talos with Shor and it makes 108% more sense shows how stupid skyrim writing is.
@JL Km Zaric looks like a high elf? XD
@@jamesmccloud7535 he didn't till I read the comment. Can't unsee it now
@@djayramos2331 Funnily enough, I've always thought this back then as well
Oh crap, now I can't unsee it too 😆
Where did you get that profile pic? I like it, it looks nice.
"Keeping It Simple Stupid" is the difference between greeting card art and Picasso.
Nordism with Imperial characteristics.
Anarco-ulfricism
Your lore rewrites are always stellar and well thought out. Are you still mostly in agreement with your older lore vids?
edit: Your vid immediately addresses my question.
To be fair I didn't assume that the nords in Skyrim generally follow the imperial cult. You hear stuff like "Ysmir's beard", "By Shor", "Shor's Bones". The old guy who gives you the Kyne's sacred trials quest says that only city folk follow the divines.
I’ve been playing through a nord character who worships Shor through using the Wintersun mod.
Makes me happy I chose the more important god months ago.
I would love to see you redo the Oblivion crisis again based on Morrowind lore focusing more on the false heirs/succession aspect & jungle river valley stuff.
THE LOREBEARD (old reference anyone?) HAS RETURNED TO US!
I love your writing / lore - discussion type videos, be it any game.
Glad to see this kind of videos return to your channel, apart from the streams.
Best Wishes.
14:00 By the time of Oblivion before the Empires decay the Nords held strongly to their pantheon. If anything the only legitimate excuse for the Cyrodillac Pantheon subsuming the Nordic one would be Akatosh physically manifesting in the most populated city on the content causing mass conversions
Edit: The Greybeards still should've worshiped Kyne though if any place would be a hold out it should be the order of Monks not some rando Helgen survivor
Oh, definitely.
I wonder if Martin became a Saint in Cyrodiil, after... you know.
;(
The problem is that in the Elder Scrolls manifestations aren't really that big of a deal. The daedra do that all the time.
The people of Elder Scrolls KNOW that all of these beings exist (aside from how the Altmer reject Talos), they don't need manifestations to prove it.
The issue they have isn't whether they believe they exist its whether they are divine or worthy of devotion.
Ex: Someone who is part of the AllFather faith would probably not reject the existence of the daedra or aedra but simply would consider them not divine and something else, like demons or something.
@@darken2417 I mean the All-Father faith has a specific place for Hermaous Mora for example. And as should be obvious the Daedra are a different beast (with the same origins) than the Aedra since they easily manifest and directly effect the world regularly due to not sacrificing their energies to create it. I mean so many of the religions are just "The same Aedra but slightly different". And Alduin is very different from Akatosh, to clarify its very doubtful that Mauloch exists as a separate entity to Malacath. The book of faiths (from which all pantheon lore we are talking about originated) OUTRIGHT STATED. That Nords viewed worshipers of Akatosh as misguided fools and that "the dragon"/Alduin is meant to be placated so that he stays asleep. In other words from their perspective as far as in game lore shows proved they were wrong. Hell Nords have their own separate and incompatible origin for Dragonborn/Ysmir (That they are the child of Shor and Kyne instead of Akatosh)
"If anything the only legitimate excuse for the Cyrodillac Pantheon subsuming the Nordic one would be Akatosh physically manifesting in the most populated city on the content causing mass conversions"
And even then, you could argue that the Nords wouldn't see Martin becoming an avatar of Akatosh, they would have seen him, as a descendant of Tiber Septim and dragonborn, becoming an avatar for Ysmir, dragon of the North. A good reason for the Nords to convert, but a better reason for them to stick to their own faith
@@cyberninjazero5659 The Nords didn't consider Alduin and Akatosh to be the same being though, they regarded that as a misunderstanding. The worship of dragons would be viewed badly because of Alduin himself (his role to end the cycle) and the history of dragons dominating mankind. They didn't reject the idea that Akatosh might exist or manifest. By that reasoning the elves would be wrong to worship Auriel, even though his worship predated Akatosh's and we still have Gelebor around worshipping him certainly
I love these so effing much! Thank you Zaric!!!
Keep it simple stupid is an engineering term, not just a programming term. it comes from military machines needing to be able to be repaired in the field by people with a limited tool set. specifically coined by a higher up at lockheed skunk works named kelly johnson
"Stupid simple writing" seems like a good way to describe the current TES lore situation.
To add on to this you should only start the civil war after dragon raising. Storm clock and imperial sympathisers send messages to each faction that you are dragon born then they send couriers to recruit you. The imperials want you because the emperor’s have always been Dragonborn and the storm clocks want you because you are the ultimate dragon and want you to help slay the dragon empire.
You can literally kill alduin and the stormcloaks will still make you go and kill an ice wraith before you can join the army, it's bizzare
I don't think they would want you for being the ultimate dragon, they would want you for being Ysmir.
@@sweeners8950 killing the ice wraiths is less about combat ability and more about your commitment to their cause. "We aren't looking for adventurers or mercenaries, we want nords dedicated to our cause" is more how Galmar feels about it. He sends you to the furthest reaches of skyrim to kill a below average foe to see not IF you can kill it, but rather if you're devoted enough to their cause to go out of your way TO do it.
The return
Interesting video, in regards to the nordic pantheon being absent in skyrim, i assumed it was from the empire "gentrifying" (for lack of a better word) the providence of skyrim, maybe in an attempt to try and unite the races of men? Thats why in the cities you see imperial gods but you go to a bandit camp and they shout "BY YSMIR YOU WONT LEAVE HERE ALIVE!"
There should have been a Massive Mead Hall for all the Bandits and Excommunicated in the epic expanse of nothingness between Whiterun and the Eastward brown land's. Filled with guys that told stories of old Skyrim.
@@chisasa9509 Some one needs to make this a mod. A "Barbarians of Skyrim" mod that adds Mead Halls in the wilderness of each hold of Skyrim that are inhabited by
Nord warriors that worship the nordic pantheon and stay true to the old ways, would be amazing. Throw in a quest or two for each Mead Hall that is about each of the Nordic gods, add some lore books about the Nords that follow the old ways and maybe adds some Nord armor sets that were in Morrowind but absent in Skyrim, like bear fur, wolf fur, trollbone and you got a god tier mod.
@@smuggrog9821 the Main Quest is Actually a quest for the world's Strongest Mead. It is said to be created by giant's to the north. One sip gets you so drunk you can't move, your game visual gets that mixed effect from the Blood Skooma/ but also buffs your character to take 90% less damage for 30 seconds.
Who's up for a skyrim total conversion mod?
Immersive The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Special Edition: Lore-Friendly Edition
Seriously, it would be easier to make than Skywind, and those guys made an astounding amount of work in a short time.
I would totally help if more people cared and we could make a team
I concur. There should be a team that would recreate Skyrim using Zaric's better lore from scratch.
People have made mods that repurposed assets like Enderal, so I would like to think that Zaric's vision of Skyrim could be done in the same engine.
already being done
@@somethingidk5792 by whom?
@@somethingidk5792 Can you tell us more?
The lore of the rings: An unexpected party.
You're hitting a home run with this lore change. The varying layers allows for many paths and can encompass all.
"Which unironically makes Alduin his own grandpa." Well, one would imagine that a god of time has the power to make a LOT of bad decisions and confusing-to-explain mistakes.
But you really bonked the granny this time, Mr. Evil Dragon Jesus!
I honestly love listening to you rant about lore and world design, it is always a good time for me. Ty Zaric :)
Hi Zaric, was checking if you had recently posted and stumbled on this video. Love your lore analyses and prospectives. Hope to see you back!
Of course the Nords wouldn't worship Arrielle.
He's just an Altmer tradehouse owner in Seyda Neen.
Yeah
You are one the only TES lore content creator I can watch. Your take on the elder scrolls is great, please make more content like this.
14:03
S T R U T
Anyone else notice Zaric’s B O U L D E R of a jawline?
Yes.
High T nerd jaw lmao
Chadric
its kind of sad that the mediocrity of skyrim has trained us to hate Talos, as the conflict from banning his worship does raise excellent points of storytelling. It gives Imperials a greater reason to be sympathetic to the Stormcloaks, to doubt their own mission of maintaining peace, as their founding God is being spat on. Nords are able point this out, to bring even greater doubt to the political repercussions of maintaining relations with the Empire as the great leader they united under is no longer revered, which then again creates more foundation for the political tear between the two peoples. The more you muddy the waters on who is completely right the more compelling a story like this would be.
Nice house Khajit you have there.
always felt it odd how they scrapped the entire pantheon of old nordic gods.
one fun element would be adding a 3rd faction that believes that the return of the dragons and a re-establishment of dragon rule to be a good thing, there are probably plenty that look at the massive ruins of the past and want that again
Yeah, THAT would be a very relatable cult to me. I always felt like that, mainly when collecting tu Dragon Priest masks
I'd love to see a total conversion based on your ideas. They're so good.
Thank you for this Zaric . I enjoyed the live stream 👍.
Always love these videos! Your ideas are very well thought out and well put together.
HOLY SHIT LORD ZARIC IS BACK
New lore video pog
Amazing! Mission complete. That right there, is why you're the best, Boss!
I always enjoy your hot takes and ideas. You passion is clearly displayed.
haven't checked Zaric's channel in a few years. Got to the bit about replacing Talos in the WG concordat with Shezzar and then the Thalmor coming back and saying it covers Shor as well.
so the whole thing rides on a Snidley Whiplash level moustache-twirly misdirection in a contract like some kind of vaudeville melodrama. like the imperials wouldn't have thought of that with the blend and overlap of imperial and Nordic culture, and the depository of information the empire has access too. makes more sense than the outlaw of Talos worship we get in TES 5 but still not great imo
A new rant by Zaric. By Shor's chest wound
Thanks for doing TES content again dude, i appreciate the discussion.
Yeah, it never made sense to me why the Nords would be upset about the banning of Talos worship at all. They're _supposed_ to be worshippers of Shor in particular and the Nordic pantheon in general. Talos was never really a big deal to the Nords of Skyrim (or, he wasn't until _Skyrim_ made him so); he was the divinized Tiber Septim (similar to how the Roman Senate would honorarily divinize its recently deceased great leaders), and was a part of the Imperial pantheon only.
Fantastic!
every time i see emil saying KISS i wanna commit seppuku
Same :/
I’m glad your back. You should make more great videos like this.
I love all your vids related to lore or gameplay. Wish to see more sir!
What happened to your who's right in the civil war conflict video.
Can't find it.
I just count every Elder Scrolls game as an alternate universe with similar yet very different history
@0:28 - Be careful! That is not a cat... that is a Flerken!
I do wish they had stuck to the Nordic pantheon in Skyrim, at least for the most part. I play the main questline regarding Alduin, and learn that Kynareth/Kyne gave Men the ability to shout to save them from Dragon rule. I find out that Akatosh gave me a dragon soul, so he's the reason I'm dragonborn in the first place. Then I start the civil war questline, and everyone is on about Tiber Septim/Talos. Who did what? Conquered Tamriel, and probably became a god? He was revered because he was dragonborn, which is awesome, but so am I. I could end up as great or even greater than Talos if I played my cards right, so what do I care about Talos worship?
Why is he the top god in Skyrim's eyes all of a sudden? Because he stole Shor's seat? So he's both Shor and Ysmir somehow? I've got other gods I can worship. I don't need to kill Skyrim's countrymen because the Empire was forced to ban one of their nine gods, so the Thalmor are rounding up Talos worshipers and killing them. I'm sure half of Skyrim will be real grateful the Stormcloaks kicked the Thalmor out, right after they killed the other half of Skyrim's citizens.
Ironically, nowhere is it stated that you need to worship Shor to enter Sovngarde. Only 1) be a Nord and 2) die in honorable combat. Before Morrowind, no one had any idea how to enter Sovngarde in the first place.
@@ZhakaronI don't think Sovngarde was originally even meant to be a general afterlife. The guy mentioned in "Sovngarde, a Reexamination", Rolf the Large, was just as clueless as Ulfgar and thought Sovngarde was a physical place. He only discovered the truth by accident. Sovngarde is described as an object of questing for a brave warrior, like the Holy Grail or the Fountain of Youth, not an afterlife everyone wants to enter. It was only Skyrim that changed it to Valhalla.
@@Zhakaron Yeah, I know. I'm honestly not even arguing; just noting changes between the games. My headcanon is that Sovngarde isn't even in Aetherius (and I can't find a source for it being there) because Lorkhan is bound to Mundus (see Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi). He started it because he wanted to gather an army for the final battle against the Aldmer.
It’s a such a small tiny change that has massive implications, and it improves the story dramatically.
Return of the king we’ve all missed you zaric
super intelligent takes. liking this re-write a lot!
I feel like in these videos where he has a jacket and is taking about lore he doesn’t have pants on
@@Zhakaron you’re wearing denim shorts aren’t you?
When you play Skyrim and say MiGhTy TaLoS! Your pant falls off like wearing the Amulet of Kings without Dragon Blood. He's just like the rest of us.
Can't believe I never thought about this. This idea would make the whole civil war feel WAY more impactful. Banning Talos always seemed like arbitrary pettiness in the original game to me "We don't like the idea that a human could become a god!" but banning a god that once marched against them and is specifically in charge of there afterlife? Now that makes a lot more sense given there endgame and would infuriate the Nords FAR more than banning Talos because "Humie god bad!"
That's not a good reason to ban Talos worship because Saint Alessia and Reman Cyrodiil were both humans and they both ascended to godhood.
The problem with modern Bethesda writers is that they want to take the fantasy out of the game, going for the "who knows if Gods are even real" when in both the lore and previous games you were literally aided by the very literal manifestation of said gods. Basically, they want to turn the lore into their "edgy atheist" version of them, regardless of if the lore supports this or not
Same as with Dragon Age and how now everything is about the great elven gods, who are not actually gods, and who knows if the Maker exists etc etc when you have spirits marching around, etc. They reduced everything to "the elves did it" rational explanation, erasing the Grey Warden's importance, the eldritch body horror of the highly infectious Taint and the Qunari's identity and unique view of life, the mystery of magic the dwarves origins, the mystery of if the Maker's city and if the Taint were actually curses/originated from it. They just turned it into boring fantasy MMORPG hidding inside the corpse of what was Dragon Age. Basically, they forgot that in fantasy it is allowed to not have all the answers
Considering prayer to them grants you actual literal boons (not even counting the Daedra whom are most DEFINITELY real to the point of talking to you and giving you fancy gubbins) and some, like Dibella and Mara, have entire questlines where at the end you're granted a permanent power-up of the God's favour? I'm pretty sure the games still firmly take the stance that the Gods are real, just because they don't descend from on high to personally present you with help or directly speak to you doesn't mean they're not present.
@@legateelizabeth But the thing is, they DID come back as literal physical beings to help you sometimes, even talked to you. Now is all "Oh Dibella wants me to thank you!" "Did you see the priest who thinks the goddess speaks to her? The nerve!" Like the Aedra talked with people all the time, they literally fought against each other's pantheon, we SEE THEM in some games, people shouldn't be reacting as if it's thats rare or wondering if gods actually talk with people.
The fact that we can battle Tsun but not talk to Shor or other Aedra to put the "oOoOoO mystery, does the high Aedra like Shor or Akatosh really exist?" in Skyrim is just stupid.
@@Artemisarrowzz As I said, their powers are definitely here. They just don't appear physically, that's not trying to 'atheistify' the setting it's just... not having the Aedra speak to you directly. Which might have more to do with writing conventions than a religious stance.
If you're the Last Dragonborn, and the Aedra can manifest, why doesn't Talos just show up to fix it himself? He's a Dragonborn, he could do it. Now sure there _are_ lore explanations behind this but think of your average consumer: they know what a Deus Ex Machina is, if the Deus-es are here why wouldn't they be Machina-ing? In the last game someone turned into a Dragon God to beat the snot out of Mehrunes Dagon, why can't Akatosh just manifest through me to beat the snot out of Alduin?
It's easier to avoid these questions that would need answering through more exposition by just having the Gods be a little more hands-off (save for literally you, of course) than having to tackle them in a game where a lot of people are entering the series for the first time and are already needing to learn an entire world, history both of prior games and generally, and learn a lot of Proper Nouns.
Maybe this is more an "eye of the beholder" type thing though, where the reasons we imagine say more about the person than the work. I'm an actual irl polytheist so "the Gods' effects are here, doubly so if you do works for them" (though unfortunately no amount of dedication is going to give me +15% damage against the opposite sex) is pretty in-line with how I *actually* experience religion and my (to me, at least) very real Gods.
@@legateelizabeth Dude, in earlier games we talked to aspects Talos, to Akatosh, to Mara etc. Literally. Face to face. They sent us themselves to quests, gave us the rewards themselves. NOBODY questioned their power or existance because just like the Daedra, they were just there.
They don't show up themselves for the same reason the Daedra don't do their own quests, even being able to perfectly do such thing: the point of the adventure (in lore) is to free people from the chains of their existance. To love everything and everyone, to understand that the people in the world aren't "real" so much as playing a role inside a game, but still love them and understand who and why they are, finally escaping and becoming a word themselves. That's why Lorkhan created the world, to help them CHIM, that's why suffering is allowed, to become stronger than it. If the gods did their quest themselves and everything was done for mortals, then how would mortals ever understand that they are in a game or that their existance isn't real, just like Vivec and so many others did? How would they grow and escape reality to give birth to more life, instead of perpetually breaking down into lesser souls until nothing remains like the Aedra?
Making the gods of TES leave the scene for the sake of the "new players", instead of properly writing them in the lore is just an excuse to be lazy, rush their prodruct and make it as generic as possible.
But what you have to understand is that Tamriel is not our world. It's fantasy. Let fantasy be fantasy, with it's own rules, capricious gods and evil demons.
@@Artemisarrowzz Yeah, I'm fully aware, that's why I said "there _are_ explanations for why they don't", you don't need to explain that to me; but most people don't want to snort enough moon sugar to deal with understanding literally otherworldy metaphysics and theology in their fantasy romp, they won't WANT the answers to those questions.
Yeah, it's watering it down for lowest common denominator, sure, be mad about that, there's a thousand videos on that for both gameplay and story. But I highly doubt it's for some nefarious "divine erasure" type reasons; like you said here, probably more just "more easily consumed product", which is the point I was trying to get across.
This is the content I subscribe for!
the return of the king
Here's an idea:
- to add even more cultural variety to Skyrim, let's make Markarth mostly Breton with Imperial and Nord influences, also add Dunmer influences to Windhelm
The Reach should be the most cosmopolitan hold in Skyrim as described in the 1st pocket guide, where nords barely hold the majority.
There should be villages of reachmen instead of just forsworn, who are essentially reskinned bandits
Talos/Tiber Septim wronged the Altmer, it makes sense for them to hate him and want him to not be worshipped. He is a more modern enemy than Shor/Shezzar so it makes sense that the humiliation is fresh on their minds. I am not saying your idea is wrong but it should include the banning of worship of Talos.
More Lore in Store For us Historians, Tour and Explore Word's Course Nailed and Board by Zaric Zahakran.
time for some good old h o n o r i n g m i g h t y t a l o s
It's very unbelievable that an empire as large and sophisticated as the Imperials would be tricked by legalese.
@@Zhakaron I think if you are going to have that concept then you have to actually come up with the clever bit of language or terms that players could find convincing. I'd be interested to know what specifically you'd come up with, as if anyone would have the depth of knowledge on the lore it would be you.
Looking good friend, nice to see you back. I recommend you to just upload some highlights of your streams, maybe more people will watch those?
Bethesda needs you
Man that cat at the start of the video is getting lovingly but aggressively petted
Skyrim belongs to the MIGHTY TALOS
Why did i never notice before that you made Elisif look like Annahenrietta from Witcher 3 XD.
My theory is that Talos pretty much is Fourth Era Shezzar because Tiber Septim merged with Wulfarth (an incarnation of Shor) and Zurin Arctus
I played through the civil war with my first character and again years later...only twice in 600+ hours for the original release and 300 for the special edition, I've replayed everything else so many time except the main quest and civil war, the main quest I think I did a hand full of times I dunno i just started ignoring it.
Your version sounds much more personal for a Nord story.
Off topic: Not sure what mod you are using but Elisif in you game looks stunningly regal.
talking about thalmor... got thinking... was ancano right? would he really be able to unmake the world with the eye of magnus... just didn't got convinced...
Ironically, one area where Skyrim did imperialization as zaric describes better was the forsworn vs. the Nords 🤣
I enjoy your creativity in your what if Skyrim was good don’t be hard on urself
This is such a good concept. It would've made the Civil War at the very least a far more compelling story to experience.
I'm pretty sure the "rejection of Shor meaning rejecting your afterlife" was kind of already in the game
Is there anyone in the game, or any book, that mentions Shor, while talking about the Talos ban? I know the community believes that Tiber Septim became Shor, but I'm not sure that's common knowledge in universe. Hiemskr isn't preaching in Whiterun about how Nords need to keep worshiping Shor, or they might not enter Sovngard.
*m i g h t y t a l o s* 🤣🤣🤣
This video was gr8. (And so he returns! With lore! xD)
Nordic Skyrim and Jungle Cyrodiil will exist forever in my heart. BGS why. That lore was so cool, why'd you not use it... ; _ ;
Hey; just remember, there are still hardcore gamers out there. Big fan and appreciator of all of your work sir! Have a wonderful day!
Love the cat, love your content Keep it up good sir👍
Zaric, I remember a video where you broke down the Skyrim Civil War and how ultimately both sides are screwed unless there was another Dragonborn emperor or leader. What is the name of this video? It’s been years and I’d love to listen again
LETS GOOO
Good ass vid hell yeah
One thing im thinking about
The common man Wouldnt care about shezzar, but shezzar is Probably very important for the nibense battlemage class and the Colovians worship Shor so I'm not sure the imperial ruling class Would be United in thinking its an easy concession. The trader aristocracy would Probably be for it and they could be in the majority and most powerful at the time so the new concordat could still be made, but I think many powerful people in Cyrodiil would try to resist before they find the small print and think they'd find it out quickly as well because of Colovias nordic heritage and that they worship Shezzar as Shor so I think the issue would come up. Does not matter that much for the story of Skyrim I guess and you could just change details like the Return of the Colovian estates or at least a major rebellion kinda like in Skyrim and a Nibenese battlemage guerrilla or Something like that. Think that would also be a decent reason for the Justicar to enter the empire to protect the concordats upholding because the imperial government isn't able to in any of their regions according to the Thalmor, and they would be kinda correct because there would be violent conflicts pretty much everywhere in the empire except in High Rock
Yes! I love these types of videos
The TES lore king has returned
It’s funny how people really think ‘imperialization’ just explains the disappearance of a religion. Like we still remember religions that existed millions of years ago and guess what? The ethnic people of those religions still worship those old religions! They are just no longer the majority, religion doesn’t just disappear.
With that concept you can add more factions too. Fighters gulid vs Companions, College vs synod.
I get so confused by this. If Akatosh and Auriel are one and the same, then why is Akatosh sympathetic to men. While Auriel hates them?
@@Zhakaron I see, kinda makes sense now. "I think" I get it. XD
Alduin veing his own grandfather makes perfect sense with him being one part of the free faced time god of cyclical creation sustainment and desteuction actually. But that would be cool lore, so Betheshda couldnt possibly write it.
Love this series.
Heck yeah!
Hi man, wish you'd do more of these kinds of videos. I really like the and they make whole lot of sense than what we got in the vanilla ESV. Dunno if you do these kind of talk/rant on stream as I don't watch live streams.
You're overlooking one major thing about Talos and why the Thalmor hate him. He IS the one and only mortal to achieve Chim.
Didn't Mannimarco intentionally achieve partial Chim evidenced with the creation of the Necromancer's Moon as part of the Lunar cycle? And the Champion of Cyrodil mantling Sheogorath and also achieving Chim?
@@tonts5329 Well Mannimarco is altmer IIRC
The aspects of Shezarr, Shezarrines like Zurin Arctus, Tiber Septim and Wulfharth combined into a oversoul Talos which was able to mantle his place as the Ninth divine in the Imperial Pantheon.
I don’t really think many people besides Vivec know about Chim or even understand it.
@@Sehtlimbo Huh?
What if TalOS was open source? 🤔
This rewrite is a lot more interesting than the "muh talos" stuff. It places a lot more importance on the man vs mer predicament, influencing the races to remember their old traditions, and to deviate from the Imperial pantheon.
Bethesda should seriously hire you to fix the lore.