Mr Pete, I just came across your channel. I spent forty plus years in a machine shop. They called me the old man cause the young fellas coming in were all about CNCs and some of them couldn't sharpen a drill bit or weld a bandsaw blade. I was going to do another six years but due to a back injury I was retired last year. I spent the last thirty years at the last shop as the Operations Manager that was supposed to be only till one was hired. I was there for thirty-two years. Always in trouble for not staying in my office and being out on the floor on a mill or lathe. But I was the one called at three am for a emergency. We offered 7/24 services for our customers. Did my office work in the morning and the end of the day and kept a scrap paper notepad at alltimes for making a list of tooling, material ect.. that was needed or we were low on stock needed. I went through every job package before I put them on the floor for any print issues and special tooling that may have been needed. The largest lathe I ran had a 72" chuck and I could run 100,000 lbs between centers and 200,000 lbs with a steady rest. That was when I did papermill roll repair. The truck drivers that did the hauling for the mills were amazed at the lathe as it was as long and taller than their rigs. I enjoyed working in a machine shop and made a good living at it. I turely enjoy your channel and I'll go back and watch every one from your first one. Your basement shop is amazing! If you ever decide to sell any of your equipment please contact me and I'll make a trip from South Carolina. I'd really enjoy just talking shop with you. Stay safe and keep those vids coming!
@@mrpete222 If I ever find some decent equipment maybe one day. I'm quite content watching yours but you have made shopping around back towards the front of the list. If you ever feel like a road trip down south I'll have to take you to the pond and see if we can catch some fresh supper. I'd make a trip up to you when this C19 is gone cause I'd love to see your basement shop and just chat with you. I'm also a single father of a Downs boy or I should say man. He turns 32 the 29th this month. And he's all about going .. anywhere. You take care my friend I've already started watching your vids from the beginning.
I thought it was surprising in the first half of the test. Didn’t move much. Yet adjusting that in small increments in a tight spot would be maddening. Better used to hold a mister or flood coolant nozzle.
I have a pile of the Starrett mag bases and they are ok for up to a 2' indicator before it gets too floppy. What drives me crazy is the center post unscrewing or guys adding a third 5/16" extension arm. Loose tips on the indicator seemed to be a big problem for folks where I used to work. Three things I always look for - repeatability, repeatability, and repeatability ... and if time allows I also look for repeatability. Interesting test - thanks for sharing with us!!!
I started with a Chinese bar type. Now have the medium size Noga with the adjustment on the base. Makes it so easy to adjust and doesn't wiggle the whole arm around.
Thanks Mr. Pete, Did not realize how important it was to have a good magnetic indicator base until I worked for a Japanese Mfg company. Had to perform machine wear set-up standardization after grinding 300K parts by resharpening the grinding stones and setting the bottom stone to a base distance in the bottom guides. The machine self adjusted going upwards by a program instruction set during this dial indicator calibration of the grinding wheel. Don't ask me to explain, just agreeing to the results of Numbers 1 & 2.
This morning I unboxed my new Noga after fussing with a cheap magnetic base. It’s the same one as #1 It appears there’s no need to save the box. Thanks for affirming that. The one I replaced had some stupid fine adjusment on the non-vertical arm. Thanks for producing this video. I wish it had come a week earlier so I wouldn’t have frittered around so much on this decision
Rigidity is an important factor, but so is the ability to get the indicator into position and adjust it precisely. That is where the Noga with base fine adjust kills the old fixed stand types and makes it worth the money in my opinion. I haven't tried any of the cheaper Noga kock offs (buy once cry once is a moto I've taken to heart.)
Proof the indicator base and indicator holding structure is as important as the indicator, all too many time I've seen people doing setups with indicator mounts a mile long made from flimsy small diameter rods, this video demonstrates the principal clearly.
Personally I would favor number 1 because of the experience shown by Mr. Pete and his knowledge of the decimal system, also I really like the way he put everything together for the experiment. Using the stick to point out certain properties could be from his teaching days, of course there is another reason which I am happy to leave to 'teacher' for now.
You should do this test on a flat bar with the indicator at a fixed distance say 8” from the base. Then flip the indicator over upside down and see how much the reading changes to show the deflection just from gravity. You should use the same indicator for every test though so the weight is the same.
My old professor in machine tool design told a story about a now defunct lathe manufacturer. They tested spindle runout using a 3 foot long indicator holder. Which flexed so much that the indicator didn't show almost any runout.
The main thing I “look for” is any video by Mr Pete. I get excited because I ALWAYS LEARN SOMETHING! And if we stop learning, we might as well be dead. Thank you sir❤
About twenty years ago I came upon the Noga. I have been a believer ever since. It is easy to adjust to a very tight tolerance. It is as sturdy as is needed and is very easy to use.
Any reason you didn't test a Fisso indicator holder? Their Strato U-Line claims to be the most rigid indicator holder on the market, and designed specifically to assist with measurements in microns.
@@mrpete222 Fair enough! I know they have a "Classic" line in the USA now, but they are still a bit expensive. If i remember right its near $260 for one with an adjustment and base.
Another interesting experiment was done by Stephan Gotteswinter. He took supposedly rigid high quality indicator stands, zeroed them and then turned them upside down. The results were surprising to some. I was hoping Mr. Pete was going to do that as well with his collection of indicator stands. But none the less, an enlightening experiment. As Robin Renzetti regularly reminds us, "everything is made out of rubber".
I'm still watching. LOL Right to the end too. Crude setups BUT it proved the point. Well done and THANK YOU for spending so much of your VALUABLE Retirement Time in making these videos. Stay Safe and Well. Regards from Australia.
Still love my Starrett rigid post magnetic base with my Last Word indicator attached to it.😊 Of course, I have one of the import Noga's with a Intrepid indicator I beginning to like, too! Thanks for sharing!!! Ken
I admit I really like the articulated type. As long as I am the only one using it. We had knockoffs at work and the arms would fail after about 4 months. Primarily due to people not believing you can over tighten them. My go to for lathe work has always been the Starrett with the solid bars. The bases with the rotating switch I have never been happy with.
This was a great experiment. I am surprised how they all held up. The flex-bar really surprised me. It things like this that make one think about the rigidity of an indicator. Thank you for taking the time to make this video.
Mr Pete regarding Glare what kind of filter do you have between the light and objects being photographed if any at all. That will cut down glare as well as light angle to camera angle good luck
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I hadn't given it much thought, maybe because I only have one kind of magnetic base and setup. I like what the Noga had to offer, I'll be keeping an eye out for one of those.
As always, I watched to the end and learned a lot. Since I don't own that many indicator stands it's very helpful to see such a direct comparison between so many. Thanks for putting in the time and effort and for sharing.
Lyle I would add one more test, as we do for aligning couplings. Set up a bar in the lathe and set the indicator/magneton the top of the bar. then rotate 180 degrees and measure the sag of each setup, it is a very telling test , Enjoyed the test, although every setup is useable by a competent machinist and do exist out of necessity. Cheers!
One thing worth checking on the Chinese import mag bases is to see that the base contact area is truly flat to prevent the base rocking slightly. Easiest way to eliminate this is unscrew the stem from the base and with the base held in a milling vise take a light cut of both flat sections to flatten the bottom. Don't forget to switch the magnet to off position.
First test it on a surface plate. First see if it rocks. If not then go to the second step using a feeler gauge. 001 and poke it all around. If you mill the base I would try these tests again.
I know this is an old video but it would be interesting to see the rigidity difference between the noga holder and the direct import copy for that same size
Nice video MrPete, we use the USA made from our NOS inventory a Federal 1492B-10 as our finest stand in the house here. This is your personal more desired style the vertical post very ridged. We also like its only stock green color no longer offered as well, thank you Lyle for reminding us to be thankful to have such fine measuring tools. Lance & Patrick.
Great idea, Mr. Pete. This is the pinnacle of education and entertainment, thank you. PS I think neodymium magnets were not widely available until the 1980s
A clear polarizing lens filter could help reduce or eliminate glare off those dial indicators. You rotate the filter slowly and you adjust them for each shot.
@@mrpete222 it is tricky. There are situations where a polarizing filter only partially works. Something to do with the geometry of the light source, surfaces, and the orientation of the light waves themselves. I’m a new viewer of your channel but I have nothing but good things to say about how you film things.
I had a feeling that the Noga would be the most rigid. I have the upper fine adjustment and now plan to get the lower fine adjustment as shown in the video. Great video.
Not really surprised by the results, but the old Central and the Starrett stands did very well. A lot cheaper than a brand new Noga, and readily available used on Ebay!
Enjoyed your video Lyle found it very relevant. I can say since I upgraded to the noga I have not looked back. I appreciate the 6 hours you spent making it. Too.
Thanks Mr Pete, another good class, I still haven't got a surface plate yet, but working out to get one, it sure is a lot of money, getting there though. Again thanks for your videos Ron from minnesota.
What scenario would you see in use that the gauge would be stressed as you are with the weights? All stresses on those gauges are on the tip of the gauge itself not on the stems. The stems should see no stress at all in typical uses.
It tests the rigidity of the vertical post, the horizontal piece and the joints. Since the horizontal post is typically in compression or very close to it, most of the flex will come from the vertical post which this test loads very well. The actual load won't exceed the pressure exerted by the piston of the dial indicator.
It'd be interesting to see a test closer to how they are used, maybe put a large round bar in a 4-jaw with a 1" offset and an indicator running on it. Then use second indicator to read the movement of the first indicator. That way you would see the movement caused by the pressure of the indicator plunger. Might have to use a tenth indicator for the second one.
You might look for a polarizing filter that is used in photography to eliminate the glare off the glass surfaces of your dial indicators. Thanks for all your informative videos. I taught science classes in a former life and know how much work setting up a demonstration can be.
Good one mr pete. I've had my old Starrett "red block" I've always called it, for longer than I can remember. But I'm liking that Noga. Hey you still adding to your vise collection? I just picked up a vintage Eclipse #180 micro instrument vise no longer made in the UK. I thought of you right away. Look it up you'd like it.
I think u should put the load on the center(dail)of the indicator,if u put on the plunger deformation can be local(despute the connection between indicator and stand is solid, result a false positive)
Ya, I would try that too, you set up your lighting, then when viewing thru the viewfinder, rotate and watch the reflective surface... it won't be perfect, but might you might be able to correct for problem shots....
In order for the polarizing filter to work the light source must be polarized as well. The sun is a polarized light source so they work outside. When I made my living as a photographer I photographed a lot of art. I put polarizing filters on the lights and a rotating polarizing filter on the camera lens. It worked very well but it requires that every light source be equipped with a polarizing filter and they all have to be oriented in the same direction. Another solution is to use very diffuse light, like a big silk or scrim and place the light above the silk. That's just the name for them; synthetic fabrics replaced silk decades ago. I use the Dacron that sailmakers use to build sails attached to large PVC pipe frames, about 3'x6' (~1mx2m). A black paper disc is laid on top of the sailcloth to prevent the specular highlight from going from the light source off of the dial and back to the camera. It works very well for watches so I would expect the same results from dial indicators.
Love my NOGA and will order a second one soon. I have to wonder if 1 and 7 didn't get it easy on the first test because if the flexed the last arm just moved parallel to the plate.
excellent video mr. pete 👍 I was very surprised at the rigidity of the flex bar looking at its design I figured it would be the worst I was also impressed by the generic Chinese model
It seems to me that in actual practice the force on the indicator support system is the force generated by the spring of the plunger in the indicator and so the force is very small. What other source of force is there when the indicator measurment is taking place?
I would have loved to have been in one of Mr. Pete’s Shop Classes.... you sir are a marvelous teacher! It’s been 60 years, but I remember Mr Jones was more interested in his cigarette breaks, accompanied with a little(?) Libation with the Auto shop teacher next door... the stink when they returned inside was overpowering.
Really appreciate your time you spent creating this lesson. Excellent demonstration on the rigidity 👍👍. What sort of load can the magnetic base withstand before it becomes detached would be another good test. Hope you have a good weekend.
Love your videos. Been a fan for a long time. I'm actually about to purchase a noga. Do you think the results for 1 and 7 could be a little different than the rest because they are not directly inline with the plate like the rest. Kind of like a crows foot on a torque wrench value is different depending on the angle it is in comparison to the handle direction. Just curious your thoughts.
Personally I prefer the #6 flex arm because its fast to set up and I know its limits,I know its wonky but at the time the price was right,plus I have learned how to repair it when the crimped ends pull off the cable,that's another story.Thanks for another great video🤗🤗🤗
This is a special circumstance, but in lathes, a heavy indicator base with a solid post in the middle might not get the job done because it is common to put the indicator on the chuck and then rotate the chuck/indicator around a tool so that the tool is on center line. Since you are rotating the chuck you need a good magnet for when the indicator is under the chuck, and you need an arm that is both long, so that it clears potential aluminum jaws, but also a low profile to clear the bed of the lathe. Basically rigidity concerns give way to these things around lathes.
Determine the maximum force the dial indicator will exert on the support column and then decide if there will be any difference in deflection between the smallest diameter support and the largest diameter support. I'm sure you won't be able to measure the difference in deflection.
love the video's and the content. i use to work night shift doing maintenance on CNC and manual machines. the guy I worked with and I would watch your videos in the maintenance shop on breaks and over lunch. A quick question for you, what is the best way to make a two piece bronze bearing? bore it under sized, slit it and scrape it to fit or line bore it? Thanks for all the knowledge you are passing on.
Mr pete to make a long story short I finally found One, 1! and only one 12-20 tap but I have one. I cannot find a 12-20 die. I'm wondering even though It's 1/4-20 can I get away with old school 2 piece "adjustable" greenfield dies to create not just clean up 12-20 threaded rod?
an interesting video and certainly proving the NOGA served way above my expectations. I'm sure someone else would do this differently... People being people. So, friends of MR Pete, go out to your shop and do your own testing. Take your own suggestions for testing and use them to test. Then perhaps share your test standards and procedure with your results. Thanks MR Pete.
I expected him to test a modern "Harbor Freight" holder (like mine) $12.99 {SKUs 63663, 5645} which I use to adjust runout on miter saw & tile saw blades and such. None the less interesting. Ron W4BIN
The blown-out highlights on the dial indicator faces in the wide view is because of the much lower average luminosity of the scene and how the auto-exposure on the camera reads it. The camera averages the overall scene to a "normal value" representing an "average" skin-tone, which in monochrome is about 18% grey. The majority of the scene is quite dark, so the exposure adjusts accordingly to give detail to the plate and the background behind the machine. Note how readable the closeups of 6 & 7 are. If, say, the plate was paper-white, all of the indicators would be much more readable, but the machine table and the background would be nearly black. People would (reasonably) opine using a darkening film on the indicators, but all this does is reduce the white indicator faces to a grey more in line with the background. A polarising filter will only kill bright specular reflections , of which there are not many in this setup, so all it really does is reduce the overall luminosity the camera sees and makes almost no difference because the auto-exposure will compensate.(unless the indicator crystals are polarised - which is unlikely - then we're back to a simple darkening effect).
neutral density filter sheet or window tint will give warm colors (3200k). Sunglasses for bright white things. Same for any shop windows, window film that is friendly with the color space you are recording in and fluorescent tube or LED it should color match (3200k) Not all LED products switch temperatures LTBBW. Anyhoo, cut some circles out and see if just a little bit of ND/tint, it should equalize the brightness. Apart from gauge blindness, there are also tweaks in software for fighting that. Black Magic Design's DaVinci Resolve editing software. The HD version is free and when it comes to color space control for clips, shows, remote segments. I say stay away from rental software. The idea being stick with one color temp. (5600k) is an option
and further more.... the real culprit is that cameras do averaging and open/close the manual/digital iris to expose for that. If you can adjust that iris in MANUAL mode or if there is a toggle, you expose for the gauges, then pan/tilt the camera to the scene shot. If still in manual, you will be able to read the dials on a monitor. Good cameras allow for control of these things just like good gauges! Thank you!
Thanks for a very interesting video. The number 4 type reaches everyware but the type 2 doesn't but it's more rigid in my opinion from my own equipment. They all bring the same question to me, the torque, the force needed to lock and make them rigid. How long will they last before being done? That could be a second video, a follow up, to compare the tightening force needed to make them deflect the same small amount. What do You think?
I LOVE the way Mr Pete taps on each one with his pointer! This man has a true Teacher's Heart !!
lol
@Clay Johnathan yea, I've been using Kaldrostream for since december myself :)
Mr Pete, I just came across your channel. I spent forty plus years in a machine shop. They called me the old man cause the young fellas coming in were all about CNCs and some of them couldn't sharpen a drill bit or weld a bandsaw blade. I was going to do another six years but due to a back injury I was retired last year. I spent the last thirty years at the last shop as the Operations Manager that was supposed to be only till one was hired. I was there for thirty-two years. Always in trouble for not staying in my office and being out on the floor on a mill or lathe. But I was the one called at three am for a emergency. We offered 7/24 services for our customers.
Did my office work in the morning and the end of the day and kept a scrap paper notepad at alltimes for making a list of tooling, material ect.. that was needed or we were low on stock needed. I went through every job package before I put them on the floor for any print issues and special tooling that may have been needed. The largest lathe I ran had a 72" chuck and I could run 100,000 lbs between centers and 200,000 lbs with a steady rest. That was when I did papermill roll repair. The truck drivers that did the hauling for the mills were amazed at the lathe as it was as long and taller than their rigs. I enjoyed working in a machine shop and made a good living at it.
I turely enjoy your channel and I'll go back and watch every one from your first one. Your basement shop is amazing! If you ever decide to sell any of your equipment please contact me and I'll make a trip from South Carolina. I'd really enjoy just talking shop with you. Stay safe and keep those vids coming!
Wow, you had quite a career. Far more diverse than mine. You should be making the videos, LOL. Keep watching.
@@mrpete222 If I ever find some decent equipment maybe one day. I'm quite content watching yours but you have made shopping around back towards the front of the list. If you ever feel like a road trip down south I'll have to take you to the pond and see if we can catch some fresh supper. I'd make a trip up to you when this C19 is gone cause I'd love to see your basement shop and just chat with you. I'm also a single father of a Downs boy or I should say man. He turns 32 the 29th this month. And he's all about going .. anywhere. You take care my friend I've already started watching your vids from the beginning.
And for your Sir! THANK YOU for YOUR SERVICE .
You built the economy.
I highly recommend the Flex-Bar type of indicator holder if your objective is to curse and get angry.
Yes
Me too!....bloody useless device😬
We often refer to them as a 'snake' indicator stand.
That is probably the only tool that I was happy when it broke.
agree
I thought it was surprising in the first half of the test. Didn’t move much. Yet adjusting that in small increments in a tight spot would be maddening. Better used to hold a mister or flood coolant nozzle.
I have a pile of the Starrett mag bases and they are ok for up to a 2' indicator before it gets too floppy. What drives me crazy is the center post unscrewing or guys adding a third 5/16" extension arm. Loose tips on the indicator seemed to be a big problem for folks where I used to work. Three things I always look for - repeatability, repeatability, and repeatability ... and if time allows I also look for repeatability. Interesting test - thanks for sharing with us!!!
👍👍👍
I have 2 NOGA type holders, a medium size one like yours and the larger one... I find them brilliant to use and so well made...
NOGA - bar none ~
I also find the NOGA fine adjustment scew in the base very useful.
Thank you for the Videos Mr Pete. I wish I had more time to watch all of them. I appreciate the time you put into them.
I started with a Chinese bar type. Now have the medium size Noga with the adjustment on the base. Makes it so easy to adjust and doesn't wiggle the whole arm around.
Thanks
Thanks Mr. Pete,
Did not realize how important it was to have a good magnetic indicator base until I worked for a Japanese Mfg company.
Had to perform machine wear set-up standardization after grinding 300K parts by resharpening the grinding stones and setting the bottom stone to a base distance in the bottom guides. The machine self adjusted going upwards by a program instruction set during this dial indicator calibration of the grinding wheel.
Don't ask me to explain, just agreeing to the results of Numbers 1 & 2.
👍👍
This morning I unboxed my new Noga after fussing with a cheap magnetic base. It’s the same one as #1
It appears there’s no need to save the box. Thanks for affirming that. The one I replaced had some stupid fine adjusment on the non-vertical arm. Thanks for producing this video. I wish it had come a week earlier so I wouldn’t have frittered around so much on this decision
👍
Came along just at the right time as I am looking to buy a new stand. Thanks 👍😀
I strongly recommend NOGA. MSC carries them online and usually has good stock and pricing.
Rigidity is an important factor, but so is the ability to get the indicator into position and adjust it precisely. That is where the Noga with base fine adjust kills the old fixed stand types and makes it worth the money in my opinion. I haven't tried any of the cheaper Noga kock offs (buy once cry once is a moto I've taken to heart.)
I have a Noga knockoff from Amazon and it is absolutely useless. I could duct tape the indicator to a twig and get more rigidity.
Lyle, This Time - You Measured Up - 5 Stars - Thanks, For Teaching Us...God Bless...
Proof the indicator base and indicator holding structure is as important as the indicator, all too many time I've seen people doing setups with indicator mounts a mile long made from flimsy small diameter rods, this video demonstrates the principal clearly.
Personally I would favor number 1 because of the experience shown by Mr. Pete and his knowledge of the decimal system, also I really like the way he put everything together for the experiment.
Using the stick to point out certain properties could be from his teaching days, of course there is another reason which I am happy to leave to 'teacher' for now.
You should do this test on a flat bar with the indicator at a fixed distance say 8” from the base. Then flip the indicator over upside down and see how much the reading changes to show the deflection just from gravity. You should use the same indicator for every test though so the weight is the same.
Good idea, but too late the job is done
Tubalcain meets Project Farm! I love it.
My old professor in machine tool design told a story about a now defunct lathe manufacturer. They tested spindle runout using a 3 foot long indicator holder. Which flexed so much that the indicator didn't show almost any runout.
The main thing I “look for” is any video by Mr Pete. I get excited because I ALWAYS LEARN SOMETHING! And if we stop learning, we might as well be dead. Thank you sir❤
👍👍🎄🎄
About twenty years ago I came upon the Noga. I have been a believer ever since. It is easy to adjust to a very tight tolerance. It is as sturdy as is needed and is very easy to use.
Thanks
Any reason you didn't test a Fisso indicator holder? Their Strato U-Line claims to be the most rigid indicator holder on the market, and designed specifically to assist with measurements in microns.
Yes, there was a darn good reason why I didn’t use fisso holder.
They cost four or $500
@@mrpete222 Fair enough! I know they have a "Classic" line in the USA now, but they are still a bit expensive. If i remember right its near $260 for one with an adjustment and base.
Another interesting experiment was done by Stephan Gotteswinter. He took supposedly rigid high quality indicator stands, zeroed them and then turned them upside down. The results were surprising to some. I was hoping Mr. Pete was going to do that as well with his collection of indicator stands. But none the less, an enlightening experiment. As Robin Renzetti regularly reminds us, "everything is made out of rubber".
I will have to watch that one
Or as I like to say, "Everything I touch is deformed".
I'm still watching. LOL Right to the end too. Crude setups BUT it proved the point. Well done and THANK YOU for spending so much of your VALUABLE Retirement Time in making these videos. Stay Safe and Well. Regards from Australia.
Still love my Starrett rigid post magnetic base with my Last Word indicator attached to it.😊 Of course, I have one of the import Noga's with a Intrepid indicator I beginning to like, too! Thanks for sharing!!! Ken
Not being a machinist leaves me to say, "that was entertaining," thank you sharing this video.
Great analysis and fun to watch...and your selecting the Noga and Central tool as most solid matches my experience for sure,
Love my Nogas.. My go-to. Thanks for sharing
I admit I really like the articulated type. As long as I am the only one using it. We had knockoffs at work and the arms would fail after about 4 months. Primarily due to people not believing you can over tighten them. My go to for lathe work has always been the Starrett with the solid bars. The bases with the rotating switch I have never been happy with.
This was a great experiment. I am surprised how they all held up. The flex-bar really surprised me. It things like this that make one think about the rigidity of an indicator. Thank you for taking the time to make this video.
Thanks
Mr Pete regarding Glare what kind of filter do you have between the light and objects being photographed if any at all. That will cut down glare as well as light angle to camera angle good luck
After being frustrated with the number 2 style in allowing me get a proper setup I bought a medium size Noga. I love it.
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I hadn't given it much thought, maybe because I only have one kind of magnetic base and setup. I like what the Noga had to offer, I'll be keeping an eye out for one of those.
As a worker in the QA field I found it very informative. My biggest problem is the tips on indicators getting busted and nobody knows what happened.
Great test! I use a flex bar and a starrett and an import like a noga.
As always, I watched to the end and learned a lot. Since I don't own that many indicator stands it's very helpful to see such a direct comparison between so many. Thanks for putting in the time and effort and for sharing.
Great test, Nice to see the results. Thank you for sharing.
Lyle I would add one more test, as we do for aligning couplings. Set up a bar in the lathe and set the indicator/magneton the top of the bar. then rotate 180 degrees and measure the sag of each setup, it is a very telling test , Enjoyed the test, although every setup is useable by a competent machinist and do exist out of necessity. Cheers!
VERY interesting. You answered the question I was afraid to ask. Now, I know. Thanks, teach
Thanks very much for your contribution very interesting. I am pleased to know that I purchased the right sort of indicator holder.
One thing worth checking on the Chinese import mag bases is to see that the base contact area is truly flat to prevent the base rocking slightly. Easiest way to eliminate this is unscrew the stem from the base and with the base held in a milling vise take a light cut of both flat sections to flatten the bottom. Don't forget to switch the magnet to off position.
First test it on a surface plate. First see if it rocks.
If not then go to the second step using a feeler gauge. 001 and poke it all around.
If you mill the base I would try these tests again.
I'm saving for a Noga. Great demonstration!
I know this is an old video but it would be interesting to see the rigidity difference between the noga holder and the direct import copy for that same size
Nice video MrPete, we use the USA made from our NOS inventory a Federal 1492B-10 as our finest stand in the house here. This is your personal more desired style the vertical post very ridged. We also like its only stock green color no longer offered as well, thank you Lyle for reminding us to be thankful to have such fine measuring tools. Lance & Patrick.
Wow! Must be really busy lately! Haven't seen new Active Atom content since Barney Rubbles' son Bambam joined the Pterodactyl Air Force!
Thank you sir. I wasn't aware of the Noga. I'll be keeping an eye out for one.
Great idea, Mr. Pete. This is the pinnacle of education and entertainment, thank you. PS I think neodymium magnets were not widely available until the 1980s
A clear polarizing lens filter could help reduce or eliminate glare off those dial indicators. You rotate the filter slowly and you adjust them for each shot.
I have been struggling with that glare for years. I even took the crown off of an indicator, but it did not help.
@@mrpete222 it is tricky. There are situations where a polarizing filter only partially works. Something to do with the geometry of the light source, surfaces, and the orientation of the light waves themselves. I’m a new viewer of your channel but I have nothing but good things to say about how you film things.
Thanks for all your work. It’s really appreciated :)
#2, and have had my Central for 4 yrs, and is my only holder at presentt. Thx Pete, will give her a test using your method. Bear.
I had a feeling that the Noga would be the most rigid. I have the upper fine adjustment and now plan to get the lower fine adjustment as shown in the video. Great video.
👍
I think I'm gonna do a test like this with my stands when I get a chance. Thanks for the video.
Not really surprised by the results, but the old Central and the Starrett stands did very well. A lot cheaper than a brand new Noga, and readily available used on Ebay!
Noga always use, flexible one I use to hold a chip shield pretty much all it's good for.
Yes
Enjoyed your video Lyle found it very relevant. I can say since I upgraded to the noga I have not looked back.
I appreciate the 6 hours you spent making it. Too.
Thanks
Thanks Mr Pete, another good class, I still haven't got a surface plate yet, but working out to get one, it sure is a lot of money, getting there though. Again thanks for your videos Ron from minnesota.
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I hate to suggest this, but cheap aerosol hairspray (White Rain, Suave, etc.) will dull reflections. Removable with denatured alcohol.
What scenario would you see in use that the gauge would be stressed as you are with the weights? All stresses on those gauges are on the tip of the gauge itself not on the stems. The stems should see no stress at all in typical uses.
It tests the rigidity of the vertical post, the horizontal piece and the joints. Since the horizontal post is typically in compression or very close to it, most of the flex will come from the vertical post which this test loads very well. The actual load won't exceed the pressure exerted by the piston of the dial indicator.
It'd be interesting to see a test closer to how they are used, maybe put a large round bar in a 4-jaw with a 1" offset and an indicator running on it. Then use second indicator to read the movement of the first indicator. That way you would see the movement caused by the pressure of the indicator plunger. Might have to use a tenth indicator for the second one.
I agree. This would tell way more!
Good morning Mr Pete! Did i miss the answer video to the what is it series 65a??
You might look for a polarizing filter that is used in photography to eliminate the glare off the glass surfaces of your dial indicators. Thanks for all your informative videos. I taught science classes in a former life and know how much work setting up a demonstration can be.
Thanks
No. 2 is my pick simple less moving parts and both rods are a good diameter
Hi Lyle, I like the number 4 stand it is so easy to maneuver, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, another great video, Cheers from magicbytes 😷
Thanks 👍
Good one mr pete. I've had my old Starrett "red block" I've always called it, for longer than I can remember. But I'm liking that Noga.
Hey you still adding to your vise collection? I just picked up a vintage Eclipse #180 micro instrument vise no longer made in the UK. I thought of you right away. Look it up you'd like it.
Thanks
I think u should put the load on the center(dail)of the indicator,if u put on the plunger deformation can be local(despute the connection between indicator and stand is solid, result a false positive)
Yay NOGA! My go to, also, but I have more Central holders, glad they did well.
For the glare try using a polarizing filter (that can rotate) on your camera.
Ya, I would try that too, you set up your lighting, then when viewing thru the viewfinder, rotate and watch the reflective surface... it won't be perfect, but might you might be able to correct for problem shots....
a Circular Polarizer lens would do the treat. you can rotate it to hone in the glare reduction.
In order for the polarizing filter to work the light source must be polarized as well. The sun is a polarized light source so they work outside. When I made my living as a photographer I photographed a lot of art. I put polarizing filters on the lights and a rotating polarizing filter on the camera lens. It worked very well but it requires that every light source be equipped with a polarizing filter and they all have to be oriented in the same direction.
Another solution is to use very diffuse light, like a big silk or scrim and place the light above the silk. That's just the name for them; synthetic fabrics replaced silk decades ago. I use the Dacron that sailmakers use to build sails attached to large PVC pipe frames, about 3'x6' (~1mx2m). A black paper disc is laid on top of the sailcloth to prevent the specular highlight from going from the light source off of the dial and back to the camera. It works very well for watches so I would expect the same results from dial indicators.
Love my NOGA and will order a second one soon. I have to wonder if 1 and 7 didn't get it easy on the first test because if the flexed the last arm just moved parallel to the plate.
I don't buy many new machine tools. but I bought a new noga about a year ago & I love it
Yes
I have a Mitutoyo 7033 which is very similar to the Noga but it has steel arms rather than aluminium. That thing is super rigid! 👍
Thanks for sharing
My only suggestion would be to roll the audio clip from the Hindenburg disaster at about 11m34s.
Great comparison thanks Mr Pete! If you ever feel up to a rematch I have one of those big 3/4 inch post Heavy Duty Starrett 659's.
Watched all the way to the end, will clean up after breakfast.
excellent video mr. pete 👍 I was very surprised at the rigidity of the flex bar looking at its design I figured it would be the worst I was also impressed by the generic Chinese model
It seems to me that in actual practice the force on the indicator support system is the force generated by the spring of the plunger in the indicator and so the force is very small. What other source of force is there when the indicator measurment is taking place?
I would have loved to have been in one of Mr. Pete’s Shop Classes.... you sir are a marvelous teacher! It’s been 60 years, but I remember Mr Jones was more interested in his cigarette breaks, accompanied with a little(?) Libation with the Auto shop teacher next door... the stink when they returned inside was overpowering.
Really appreciate your time you spent creating this lesson. Excellent demonstration on the rigidity 👍👍. What sort of load can the magnetic base withstand before it becomes detached would be another good test. Hope you have a good weekend.
Use a circular polarizing filter on your camera lens to control the glare.
Love your videos. Been a fan for a long time. I'm actually about to purchase a noga. Do you think the results for 1 and 7 could be a little different than the rest because they are not directly inline with the plate like the rest. Kind of like a crows foot on a torque wrench value is different depending on the angle it is in comparison to the handle direction. Just curious your thoughts.
Personally I prefer the #6 flex arm because its fast to set up and I know its limits,I know its wonky but at the time the price was right,plus I have learned how to repair it when the crimped ends pull off the cable,that's another story.Thanks for another great video🤗🤗🤗
I have a Noga MG 71003 with the fine adjustment at the top. It's expensive but worth every penny
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Sad to hear Johnny Crawford passed away last week. The Rifleman is still my favourite western series.
Yes, I watched it yesterday
I thought he got killed in a John Wayne movie.
This is a special circumstance, but in lathes, a heavy indicator base with a solid post in the middle might not get the job done because it is common to put the indicator on the chuck and then rotate the chuck/indicator around a tool so that the tool is on center line. Since you are rotating the chuck you need a good magnet for when the indicator is under the chuck, and you need an arm that is both long, so that it clears potential aluminum jaws, but also a low profile to clear the bed of the lathe. Basically rigidity concerns give way to these things around lathes.
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I thought the Flexbar one did a lot better than expected. The NOGA performed very well.
I was going to add that the Flex put up a good show. I have one that works well, but Mr. Pete one must have been a dud or faulty.
Are those all lug back indicators? Are you using some sort of adapter to mount them to the holders?
Determine the maximum force the dial indicator will exert on the support column and then decide if there will be any difference in deflection between the smallest diameter support and the largest diameter support. I'm sure you won't be able to measure the difference in deflection.
Thanks Mr Pete. Not perfectly scientific but a very good guide to what's most rigid - definitely useful!
This.man is a treasure. I wish I could meet him in person some day.
Thanks
I'd like to see Stefan's indicator stand in the comparison!
For very strong magnet
You can use approximately strong coil of contactor
12 volt 24 volt d c
And use it with small portable battery
Good morning Mr Peterson. ☕🙋♀️👩🔧🧰. Ready to learn, Sir!
That was interesting Lyle.
Thanks for sharing.
love the video's and the content. i use to work night shift doing maintenance on CNC and manual machines. the guy I worked with and I would watch your videos in the maintenance shop on breaks and over lunch. A quick question for you, what is the best way to make a two piece bronze bearing? bore it under sized, slit it and scrape it to fit or line bore it? Thanks for all the knowledge you are passing on.
Try a polarizing filter over the camera lens to eliminate the glare.
Mr pete to make a long story short I finally found One, 1! and only one 12-20 tap but I have one. I cannot find a 12-20 die. I'm wondering even though It's 1/4-20 can I get away with old school 2 piece "adjustable" greenfield dies to create not just clean up 12-20 threaded rod?
an interesting video and certainly proving the NOGA served way above my expectations. I'm sure someone else would do this differently... People being people. So, friends of MR Pete, go out to your shop and do your own testing. Take your own suggestions for testing and use them to test. Then perhaps share your test standards and procedure with your results.
Thanks MR Pete.
I expected him to test a modern "Harbor Freight" holder (like mine) $12.99 {SKUs 63663, 5645} which I use to adjust runout on miter saw & tile saw blades and such. None the less interesting. Ron W4BIN
Flat black paint will smash that glare. Paint the dial lens or the camera lens depending on how much glare your looking to rid.
The blown-out highlights on the dial indicator faces in the wide view is because of the much lower average luminosity of the scene and how the auto-exposure on the camera reads it. The camera averages the overall scene to a "normal value" representing an "average" skin-tone, which in monochrome is about 18% grey. The majority of the scene is quite dark, so the exposure adjusts accordingly to give detail to the plate and the background behind the machine. Note how readable the closeups of 6 & 7 are. If, say, the plate was paper-white, all of the indicators would be much more readable, but the machine table and the background would be nearly black. People would (reasonably) opine using a darkening film on the indicators, but all this does is reduce the white indicator faces to a grey more in line with the background. A polarising filter will only kill bright specular reflections , of which there are not many in this setup, so all it really does is reduce the overall luminosity the camera sees and makes almost no difference because the auto-exposure will compensate.(unless the indicator crystals are polarised - which is unlikely - then we're back to a simple darkening effect).
neutral density filter sheet or window tint will give warm colors (3200k). Sunglasses for bright white things. Same for any shop windows, window film that is friendly with the color space you are recording in and fluorescent tube or LED it should color match (3200k) Not all LED products switch temperatures LTBBW. Anyhoo, cut some circles out and see if just a little bit of ND/tint, it should equalize the brightness. Apart from gauge blindness, there are also tweaks in software for fighting that. Black Magic Design's DaVinci Resolve editing software. The HD version is free and when it comes to color space control for clips, shows, remote segments. I say stay away from rental software. The idea being stick with one color temp. (5600k) is an option
and further more.... the real culprit is that cameras do averaging and open/close the manual/digital iris to expose for that. If you can adjust that iris in MANUAL mode or if there is a toggle, you expose for the gauges, then pan/tilt the camera to the scene shot. If still in manual, you will be able to read the dials on a monitor. Good cameras allow for control of these things just like good gauges! Thank you!
Good Morning Mr Pete
I'm also not a metrologist; that's why I use the AccuWeather app.
_Parallax error._
12:25 I’m dying from laughter 🤭
😀😀
Thanks for a very interesting video. The number 4 type reaches everyware but the type 2 doesn't but it's more rigid in my opinion from my own equipment.
They all bring the same question to me, the torque, the force needed to lock and make them rigid. How long will they last before being done?
That could be a second video, a follow up, to compare the tightening force needed to make them deflect the same small amount. What do You think?