Mousse or TUbliss for hard enduro events?︱Cross Training Enduro shorty
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2022
- www.crosstrainingenduro.com Mousse or TUbliss for hard enduro events? Most top racers use mousses, but we chat with our favourite extreme enduro muppet, Coxy from the Muppets Inc channel, about why he uses TUbliss. This is his silver class lap of the Ironstone Extreme, part of the national hard enduro series run by Grassroots Enduro Australia. We discuss the enduro techniques, TUbliss setup, and preparation for racing silver class hard enduro with our Muppets Inc rider, Coxy. Extreme enduro is really starting to take off in Australia. Both rider and motorbike were put to the test during this all natural terrain hard enduro event. Into enduro riding? See all our dirt bike videos for dirt riding tips. Our channel now had hundreds of dirt bike videos covering reviews, and enduro riding techniques. Search our channel for dirt riding gear too. Our dirt riding tips also include wider topics such as the best dirt riding boots. Plenty of hard enduro action at the Ironstone Extreme run by Grassroots Enduro Australia! What does it take to become a silver class hard enduro rider? A big thanks to the Ironstone Extreme organisers for another great event. And thanks to the all the volunteers who make these events happen. The track creators.The Ironstone Extreme sweep riders. Marshals from Grassroots Enduro Australia. The unsung heroes. Like to see more of the Ironstone Enduro? More vids on the way.The Australian Hard Enduro Championship continues with Ironstone Extreme. Riders came from all over Australia to challenge themselves in this gruelling race. Rocks. Creekbeds. Rutted climbs. And constant climbs and descents at Mt Morgan in Queensland.
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To me the perk to tubliss over a mousse is the ability to run a harder, long lasting tire and still have grip.
At the pro level it's all mousses and super soft tires that only last a day or two, trail riders cant afford that.
Love the tubless system allso. I've been running it for around five years now. And I can't see myself changing.
I would listen to you guys on a sit down podcast discussing all these topics.
Mousse Front and Tubliss Rear is what I’ve settled on. Better traction with Tubliss and considerably lighter. Mousse less likely to fail but quite heavy and can’t run pressure as low. I can run my tires longer with Tubliss as the low pressure gives better traction.
I had Tubliss front and still dinged rim and multiple flats…
Flat on rear with Tubliss you can still ride out.
I run the same setup as you, another reason I switched from tubluss to mousse in the front is getting the front tubliss to seat the bead cam be annoying.
One thing I would add is it really depends on the terrain you’re riding as well. I did a race a few months ago and the terrain contained a lot of really sharp rocks, and tens of riders every day came with cut rear tires and punctures with Tubliss. That’s especially if you ride super soft tires in places like that.
100% agree. That's when you either run mousses, or use knobbies with a very stiff carcass and ride around at zero psi once you get punctures... not a great option anyway because a very hard impact on a sharp rock might puncture the high pressure tube.
Half the video is them literally explaining how it’s all about the terrain… you’re not adding anything.
Mousses are the only choice that lets you empty all the tire repair crap out of your pack. That alone is worth it. Here in the US dessert southwest between the cactus, rocks and the old barb wire, they are a wise choice. I think the learning curve is steep though especially if you are always sampling tires, always trying to figure out which size/ brand mousse at $130 a pop. In my case, Michelin tires, Michelin mousse, drilled out in the rear for a 6-8 lb feel.
I use 4mm thick tubes covered in rubber grease at 2.5-4.5psi depending on conditions, I really only ride tech and have only had one flat in the last 10 years with this setup, however I'm not an aggressive rider and don't do fast/big commitment moves.
If you too run thick tubes I'd suggest giving rubber grease a go, makes a huge difference in letting the tire conform to stuff.
Similar idea is to use a generous amount of armour-all silicone spray to fully lube the tube and inside of the tire (and/or all the parts of a TuBliss system). It also turns installing into an easy dream, everything slides like good sex. Just don't put any silicone lube on the treads of the tire, it can actually soak into the rubber and make the tires slippery for a long time. Full credit for this goes to the TuBliss guys, using armour-all was a pro-tip they shared during a lovely long phone chat (Motoz tires can be very hard to seal with TuBliss, but worth it).
Pros: Mousses
Amateur: tubliss
I love Tubliss ☝🏻
Chears from Argentina 🇦🇷
Amateurs that don't want to mess with checking pressures and/or risking the fallouts of punctures/cuts/slashes, and can justify the additional cost: Mousses.
I personally run mousses because I highly dislike dealing with tubes and air pressures. They've allowed me to reduce the size of my toolkit and run worry-free down trails.
I've had the same rear mousse for 3 rear tires now and it is about time to replace, front has lasted 2 tires now (about the same time as rear, I just rear steer and spin that one a lot).
Not bad considering the peace of mind and ease of use (I never have to check pressures)... but you do have to pop one side of the tire off and re-lube about half-way through the tire's life, not difficult at all.
So since I'm fortunate to have the money for a mousse every 2-3 tires, I love them.
That's a great run on those mousses, Matt. What brand? And with what tyres? I hear that part of getting good life out of them is matching them to the right size tyre...
Been seeing plenty of reviews of guys saying they just use the Syringe method to add grease through the valve stem instead of removing the tire.
Undersized mousse with Tubliss is the way to go in the rear. I believe Nutech is working on their own system, but otherwise get an undersized soft mousse, trim the inside of the mousse by 3/4, install inside a standard tubliss setup. So you get a low pressure but flat proof setup that will let you run more delicate carcass tires like the IBEX or Michelins.
@@jacobnelson2480 yes it is, the mousse ultimately holds the tire, the tubliss is only there to secure the bead (you can add pressure if you wanted, say for DS). So losing the tubliss system bladder pressure only makes the setup a bit softer (especially for corners), but ultimately you can ride it with very little compromise. Think of it as a mousse system that you can tune.
One of our guys has been doing this for two years now, Mat. He's riding silver class events and soon to go into gold, he'll keep the same system as he's been very happy with it. The mousses last for ages too as the bit of air pressure in there takes a fair bit of stress and strain off the mousse....
@@crosstrainingenduro Barry, that's the GilMousse system. Patent Pending.
😂
Great but very heavy. Unless you only ride extreme enduro there is no need for mousse with tubliss
I like to run solid rubber tires. Never get a flat but my bones and joints are still aching 😂
For racing I can see how mousse bibs are the better choice. Though, I will be switching from tubes to Tubliss on my next tire change
I run tubliss here in the hard rocks of Colorado. Never had any issues with it and do like the feel of it for my riding and trail videos.
Mousses are my go to. If you’re 30 miles in on a 70 mile ride, getting a flat is a pain in the… watched tubliss fail on my husbands bike due to riding some gnarly and puncturing tires in a way that they can’t be repaired.
In any kind of race, I’d use mousse. But are a pain to install! For my bitty arms at least.
More choice now in mouses, I have used tubes, tubliss & mouses and am a tubliss fan but you do get punctures - the only real fail safe is a mouse, but they can be too hard! Now you can get some enduro mouses equivalent to 5 to 7 psi it’s much better
I run tubliss in the rear and mousse in the front. Front mousee will last a long time since it is not under power. And I like the adjustability of PSI in the rear for differant types of terrain. I don't have any sharp rocks here in Central Canada so no worries about slicing a tire.
I use both. Both are brilliant and Tubliss advantage is the pressure can be changed while riding/racing. I use mousse front and Tubliss here. Tubliss is not a corporation LOL. It is NUETECH...
I still just run heavy duty tubes. If I get a flat I just ride back to the truck but It’s been many years since that has happened and it’s just all hard enduro riding. Ive seen more tubliss go flat than tubes. Maybe new nitro mousse might be good to try if it can mimic low pressure well enough.
Excellent! I am 100% tubliss since 2015. I have had on 3 occasions had a puncture from the inside from the rim-lock. Curious to hear if anyone else has had trouble. I have since rounded the sharp corners with a flap wheel on a hand grinder and have had no problems. I run them in all our bikes. cheers.
I heard they changed the shape of the rim lock after the first generation, Kevin. I've only had the 2nd gen gear and no issues so far.
I had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago. Instead of rounding the corners I tighten the rim lock about 3/4 of a full turn tighter then recommended torque to seat it deeper. Haven't had an issue since.
I was on a Turkey run with tubliss, due to my own install error I got a flat front tire. Rode the last 50 miles on completely flat front tire, and the last 5 miles at 50mph on asphalt, held on only by tubliss. It was practically miraculous, I wasn't digging tubliss until then due to my own leaky bad install. Went ahead and redid both with new tires and now bullet proof. That was last year. This year I was on another turkey run, and there was a guy with mousse off-trail, somehow his bead came off outside the rim. Had to be his own error, but it was definitely a failure while running mousse.
I would like to share an incident / tech note. My buddy was running mousse (90% of us do) and he had one of those blue, motion pro, hard plastic rim locks in his front. We were changing his tire and discovered that the rim lock had sliced the mousse in half there. So personally I would advise the other type of rimlock with the wide black rubber pad.
He didn’t really notice anything riding. But it happened.
Tubliss is not suitable for every rubber, some tires simply release air and cannot be used without tubes. Mousse does not allow you to regulate the pressure... Therefore, I use a combined version of tubliss and mousse.
DIY😁
I cut the smooth mousse 0.4 (mousse without tits)... was cut approximately in half lengthwise and inserted the outer half of the mousse into the splint with tublis.
In my wheel there is both mousse and tubliss at the same time, and if necessary, you can even pump up the pressure
IMHO, Picked up the perfect option for enduro😉
I know two guys using that system as well, they love it. 👍
For me one of the big things is how hostile is the environment. I ride in the desert and some areas have cactus with 3-4" thorns that can nick the inner tube of a tubliss. Sliced sidewalls from high-speed rock encounters are also not uncommon for me. I ride year round, and having to fix a tire in 105+ degree heat can be a chore. I've used tubliss and mousses and have grown to love the near indestructible nature of mousses. The trade off in traction when mousses are new is worth it for me. Ive found the platinum Nitromousses to be very durable. I re-wedge my mousses and get a lot of high-speed desert hours out of them. It also saves me from carrying around tire inflation tools.
From my experience I think tubliss works great if you're ok with the occassional flat fix. You can save a good amount of money by riding rear tires almost until they are bald while still getting good traction.
I'd go for mousses too with those thorns around! It sounds a bit tricky to fit, but I know quite a few guys are cutting a groove on the inside of the mousse and using it with TUbliss to try and get the best of both worlds.... most say it works well but I'd still say with thorns the mousses alone are going to be best in the long run.
Rode full Romaniacs on Lucioli rear and loved it. Too heavy for the front for my liking (big inertia not easy to turn) to race it so I stay with mousse in front for racing.
I checked the Italian and USA sites, Mikhail. There doesn't seem to be much info on either. It sounds interesting but I'd want to know how much they weigh and other details.... lucioli-italia.com/
@@crosstrainingenduro consider + 2kg (or 2.3) vs mousse on the rear and approx plus 1 - 1.5kg vs mousse on the front. Rear Lucioli is 3.5kg, Front is arount 2.5kg. Rode front and rear and you simply need to get used to it and adjust the riding which I think happens in 1 ride. but you feel the weight in front for sure. For riding with friends i think it is the best option still. When using rear only I didnt feel the weight at all and it also feels like it absorbs hits on low pressure better than tubliss. Rode 0.15bar 3rd day in the high mountains, was smashing rocks full speed without mercy, didnt take care about the lines as I usually have to do when riding Tubliss (to avoid puncture) and found no bends on the rim.
@@crosstrainingenduro Check out the Lucioli reports from Robbo Robinson (Eurotek UK)
Installed tubliss and a new for motoz hybrid arena for the great alipne ride with AMTRA and got a split in the tyre from a rock and kept riding the whole weekend around 200ks
no problem and plenty of traction. no damage to the tubliss and on to my fifth hybrid..
Do you get good mileage from the Motoz, Graeme? Some of the guys in our group have been thinking about trying them...
@@crosstrainingenduro I'm in victoria and ride about 6 + times a year and often 30 to 40 k's over 5 hours 2 to 3 years before changing. Loads of grip even when its well worn. I need all the grip I can get. Exellent for rock climbing and steep climbs.
I have standard nitromousse with medium compound mitas tires. They last forever and I've had decent traction everywhere, with gummy tires it's even better by far but I can't afford them all the time. When it comes down to it proper clutch control and momentum will get you out of nearly all situations. Pros of mousse outweigh the cons by far
Pros will outweigh the cons for some riders definitely
I tried Tubliss but now use mousses, I wouldn't go back to Tubliss. An interesting question would be that if money wasn't an issue what would you use.
Good point. I know some guys won't use mousses due to the cost or replacing it with each new knobby (mind you, some mousses are actually lasting quite a while now). Same with TUbliss, at least in Australia... the price has gone up quite a bit so some riders are shying away. I think the Aussie dollar was a lot stronger a few years back.
I’ve been considering using mouse for a while. However, this weekend, during an enduro race, I witnessed a mouse user tore his rear tire. I’m not so sure anymore.
I think it's most reliable setup for racing, but you can still hit problems. I remember footage of one of the top riders where his rear tyre somehow came off the rim on one side and his race was over... I assume he was using an ultra soft mousse .
@@crosstrainingenduro I have no idea what he used. For my slow pace of riding, I thing tubliss is a great fit. Thanks for the reply.
I understand that low air pressure in the back tire helps traction. What is the benefits of low air in the front?
Discussed this briefly in our vid about the best air pressures, Brian
I run tubeless but for competition they aren’t the best option
If you have a HP tube failure with tubeless they take far too long to repair
I’ve spoken to Chris Birch about this too and he was of the same view, he said he wouldn’t run tubeless 👍
I've raced several hard enduros (ameture level) and had no problems with Tubliss. It's recommended to change the high pressure tube every year, although you probably wouldn't have any issues running it for two years. They are like $12 so not a huge expense. I regularly run down to 2 PSI cold (usually comes to 3-4 while riding) with no issues. Punctures do happen when riding at any speed and hitting rocks at that pressure but I've had really good luck running Stan's Race sealant with the small punctures and tears that sometimes come along with this. This sealant cannot be added through the valve core, but seems to seal really well and does not seem to be drying out fast either, I've had 8 oz in a tire for close to 9 months now and it's still holding up well. So I think Tubliss can be very reliable, just not quite as reliable as mousses. Another big mistake people make with tubliss is tightening the high pressure valve stem nut to the rim, causing high pressure tube tears.
I must admit we are very slack with updating the inner high pressure tube, Chris. These are six years old on one of our bikes. Mine were four years old on the Beta Xtrainer when I sold it. The rest of the guys have had them for between two to four years. No failures as yet except in one hard enduro event when a sharp rock pierced right through...
@@crosstrainingenduro agreed! I’ve seen some last a very long time. I had one front high pressure tube failure on a tube that was 5 years old. After speaking with Neutech I got the 1-2 replacement recommendation. Since I’ve been doing some competing with them I’ve been sticking to it. Love the channel! Happy supporter here.
I thought I would try the tubliss system it does seem to work pretty good ...that is once I get it installed but man I'm no good at mounting these things the first bead on the tire no sweat I don't even need tools the tire just falls on but once I install the tubliss I can't seem to collapse it enough get the tire into the center dish to pull up enough rubber to finish spooning the tire on even when I use the aid of clamps to smash the thing flat (which does make a difference ) but even with good tire irons I end up damaging that last tire bead quite a bit not to mention the valve stems always seem to get a little caddy wonked and lose their time a little bit once the tire finally goes on ...from what I see pretty much stuck with however they settle in the real bummer is the second time I ventured out on it I hit a big rock hiding under some leaves that the road grader man pulled out of the ditch and it pinched the bladder and I had to ride home on a flat I had 110 lb in the bladder and 8 lb in the tire what's your secret sauce formula to mounting these things Barry ?!
Lube all the parts with a generous amount of armour-all spray (it's a light silicone, there are generic equivalent products). Everything will slide together like fine sex. I got this directly from the TuBliss guys, gave them a phone call for help tips while fighting with a Motoz front tire that would not seal. The armour-all works so good that I do it for bicycle tires too, including with Tannus tire armour foam inserts (the closest thing to TuBliss for bicycles). Warning: keep the silicone off the tire treads, it can soak in and make them slippery for a long time. Caveat: just guessing but it seems likely: the silicone might make it hard or impossible to bond patches onto soaked inner tubes. Thankfully this shouldn't matter for tire plugs on TuBliss, but I don't expect my bicycle tubes to be repairable.
We've got one of those tyre changer doodads... the big round metal hoop looking thing. And those little alloy things that you can screw on to the rim to help push the tyre off the bead, if that makes sense. And lots of soapy water or lube spray to make rubber slip easier. And follow the instructions precisely! Seems to be working for us... so far.
Hey Mark, after many, many tyre changes with Tubliss I've found that the brand and type of tyre makes a huge difference with what you are experiencing - namely the front tyre due to the narrower rim width. Shinko "Fatty" front tyres I found almost impossible to get on as the wall thickness of the bead didn't allow enough room. I've been running standard sized Mitas fronts for the last year or so and have found these to be far easier to mount.
@@muppets_inc right on man!! I kind of suspected that might be a lot of my problem I've got an IRC Battle Rally TR8 3.00 up on the front side now been my favorite all around tire I guess it just doesn't work so well with the tubiss system as it is pretty thick in the bead section ! Appreciate the info man ! 😁👍
Been reading tons of these reviews between mousse & tubliss. And the main concern I have that isn’t getting mentioned is which is better to dampen the shock and risk of smashing the endless bowling balls in the trail at high speed here in the pacific north west. Tubliss allowed great traction but it’s still a soft front tire allowing that CRACK every time you come hot in to a bolder section.
The specific effect of you get from smashing in to things seems understated in these comparisons.
Our full video about mousse v TUbliss does cover the fact TUbliss will protect your rims more than tubes, but a mousse will protect your rims the best. And we concluded that very aggressive riders and/or serious racers will be best off with mousses. Links to that vid during this one and at the end.
@@crosstrainingenduro Thanks for the reply. But that’s kind of my point, these reviews are typically only comparing them on the basis of protection from damage, not the actual ride quality. Although I understand that if one is better at protecting your rim, it means you can smash harder, my point is specifically the ride quality and performance of each at their limits.
Blowing through a front tire with 6-8psi and safely hitting the high pressure tube will feel and perform much different then taking that exact bump on a nitrogen filled doughnut in a tire with no air pressure at all.
My curiosity for these reviews would be to see both compared at max performance on the same section of rutted or Stoney trail and see which inspires more confidence, comfort etc.
just a thought because nobody seems to be actually test comparing them in most of these reviews.
Appreciate the content though.
Gotcha. The actual 'feel' is very subjective. I know plenty of riders hate the 'dead' feel of mousses especially on the front wheel. But it is great to slam into a tree root and be more confident about way less chance of denting rims. It's probably something a rider has to actually try for themselves and see what they think. Me? I can see what they mean but it certainly doesn't bother me. I'm used to running only 2 to 4 psi in my TUbliss to get maximum grip in our slow technical terrain. But it does mean no slamming hard into rocks and tree roots of course.... something I don't do anyway.
This was a livestream from a few years ago comparing tubes, tubliss, mousses and air balls. It’s fairly long but there’s some decent information throughout. ruclips.net/video/4bFYD3jwSNk/видео.html
yo is a 2001 wr250f good for enduro and what should I do to make it better
Sure
Any enduro bike is good for enduro usually. And it's usually the rider we need to improve, not the bike. 😊
ok thanks I hope one day I can meet you
Was this part of a podcast? What podcast?
These 'shorty' vids are just highlights from the longer videos for supporters. This bit was taken from a half hour video for our supporters.
Guys, just run Slime in the tyre with a tubeless system then it's bullet proof. No need for plugs. Works for me and you only need to put about 150ml per tyre.
Bullet proof?
I’ve had an 1/12” screw go through the tire. My guess is the Slime initially sealed.
Unfortunately the screw poked its way through the liner and punctured the bladder.
I think very robust is a better description. Still on long trips, it’s good to carry a spare 21” tube as a back up.
Any reason Enduro bikes don’t come with tubeless rims like Trials bikes?
I guess mousses would still be the pro choice to save worrying about punctures but for the rest of us it would beat tubes or Tubliss.
I suspect a trials rim would be too weak, Jon? And the BMW adv style would be too vulnerable to damage?
@@crosstrainingenduro I guess having the spokes raised away from the rim doesn’t allow as much flex and could cause cracks when used hard.
Thanks for your reply, I really enjoy your videos.
And fucioli?
Its just a better feeling to have the certainty of no issues with mousse on longer rides and/or in competition and you have no tools for tyre repair you have to carry.
I have used tubes, tubliss and mousse over many years and still use all. All systems have revealed points, I hate.
There's certainly no perfect system yet. I know some guys have been happy with TUbliss and using a trimmed mousse which kind of has the benefits of both. A bit heavy though.
We ride deep into wilderness terrain in western north America, so to pack less and worry less, mousse tubes are the way. We run worn out plushies with double bead locks and gummy tires. Makes plenty of traction.😂
😎👍
Sorry guys, but you're being unintentionally hilarious with all the qualifiers you have to make for Tubliss, "as long as you carry the right tools, as long as you have the glue and plugs, it only takes 5 minutes (but there was the one ride where I had 3 plugs), as long as the inner bladder doesn't fail, and as long as the liner doesn't fail, you'll be able to ride out..." I'll take the certainty of a mousse, thanks.
Sure. But then you need to add all the qualifiers for a mousse lol. Horses for courses. There's no one size fits all. 😁 I know a few guys who were disappointed with mousses for hard enduro so worked out a combination of mousses and TUbliss....
Most of us mere mortals won't use neither Mousse or TUbliss, because we ride our bikes at highway speeds to get to our off-road destinations. Not saying it can't be done, but not being DOT rated, it may not be wise doing so. That coupled with the fact they're pricey and complicated to install, and it's recommended you replace both systems with every new tire. it's Heavy duty tubes and rim-locks for me.
Definitely not wasting a tire using it on paved roads. I've been using Nitro Mousse for quite a few years, and there's no way I'll use anything different. Flats are a thing of the past.
@@michaelwendler5589 Yeah, if I were 100% off-road, the Mousse or TUbliss would be the way to go. They definitely serve their purposes. But I would worry that either system would fail at prolonged highway speeds. Most of us true 50/50 riders are okay with burning a little rubber on the pavement just to have the grip off-road.
TuBliss is widely used on road, and has no problems with sane dual sport "highway" speeds. Worst case you want to balance the tire if it shakes too much without. I'm about 99.9% certain the only reason TuBliss isn't DOT certified, is because that would cost a bajillion dollars they could never afford. It's just too weird of a product (there's nothing else like it in the whole tire industry), and they are a genuine small company / cottage industry, really just a few people trying to make an honest living. If some huge company used a similar system in some mainstream application, they could afford the certification and the liability. But I think if the TuBliss guys showed up at the DOT, they would be looked at like horns guy on jan 6.
@@exploder69 Well, a very large percentage of people have difficulty seating the bead, and the system regularly throws tires. Not to mention It's probably not DOT rated because it's not designed to take the centrifugal force, not because regulations are too steep or insurmountable to pass. The rubber compounds in tires (and tubes) are indeed speed rated. The simple fact is, it's just not designed to take prolonged highway speeds. It is just a bicycle innertube after all.
Yep, I read somewhere the TUbliss CEO said it was just too expensive to get DOT certified. Plenty of guys use tubes with a very low rate of punctures... there's definitely no 'one size fits all' when it comes to mousses, tubes and TUbliss.
only mousses, racing or not - don't have time for BS.