When I first met my CFI, he told me a story about a student he had that wouldn’t hand over controls and was about to stall the lane in the pattern. The CFI was yelling “my plane!” and trying to push forward. As it was starting to feel like the break into a spin was imminent, he stabbed the student in the leg with his pen. That was enough to get the student to release the controls.
Very true. In lifeguarding, we are taught that one of the most useful tools in trying to save someone in the water, who is panicking, so they won't drown you too, is a very hard elbow to the face, head, or somewhere else that will subdue them.
Reading the lifeguard comment brought me back! Had a few i stances where i had to be very agressive in tone to bring someone out of a self obsessed panic. Another time as a scuba i structor i had to punch a guy in the face (mask) to stop him from pulling everything off of my face while on the surface. All is well that ends well. It seems so strange to have to be scary to save someone's life. The recording is a bit chilling in this case. 😬
@@Cousin. I've never heard of that lol. I've heard of approaching them from behind if possible, to then grab them onto your chest and you swim on your back. There's no chance an elbow is gonna work, you'd have to be very close to them and by that range theyre probably already grabbing onto you
@@rykehuss3435 I agree, I've never heard of the elbow to the face/head either. One of my good friends was a lifeguard and collegiate swimmer and what he had told me was that if the person is panicking, you simply back away until they either calm down or are overcome by exhaustion/water intake. At that point, you're able to safely move in and rescue them.
@@rykehuss3435 That's what I'm referring to. And that is exactly how we were taught. Once you have them, if they are fighting, and not letting go, that's what you use. True, if you can see that they are already panicked, and you can't get near them, we have to wait until they go under, but again, once you have them, if they start grabbing you and taking you with them; pow! Are you a lifeguard? I'd be curious where you're getting your ideas from? Your comment sounds like something someone would think, without actually having done it, or having been in that situation.
Once again, a highly professional and non-emotional brief by an accomplished presenter. While the news is nearly always sad, the presentation is satisfying and thought-provoking.
The FAA should consider including this scenario as a required item in the CFI practical test, in the same way that spins, runway incursions and endorsements are. This situation can very likely be fatal to the unprepared CFI. It wasn't until my 2nd year as a CFI that I was asked what my strategy would be for handling a situation where the student wouldn't release the controls during a critical phase. (for those wondering- a quick chop to the nose or throat) I hadn't even really considered it until I was challenged on it, and in the moment is not a good time to figure something like that out.
Thank you for the warning before playing the tape. I already decided not to listen to it when it happened and I appreciated having the chance to skip it in your video as well.
Thank you for doing these early analysis videos. As a fresh CFI who does a lot of discovery flights and has a good bit of brand new PPL students this is a good reminder to always expect the unexpected. Students freezing up on the controls during critical phases of flight is certainly one of those situations I hope doesn't occur, and if it does I hope I can get them to relinquish controls before were in an irrecoverable situation.
Yeah it sounds like a good thing to make them aware of. They don't touch the controls. Maybe prepare an elbow if they go complete lockup. Such an unnecessary way to die.
@@DanFrederiksen Thankfully you can usually tell pretty quickly if you have a student who may have abnormal reactions to stress; however, you can never be 100% sure. On discovery flights if I feel comfortable with the student I'll have them "follow along" with me on the controls while I'm taking off and landing but if they show signs of stress or nervousness, or if they're jumpy I'll tell them to keep their feet on the floor and hands in their lap.
Yea def prepare the elbow, I heard from my colleague one guy had discovery flight with one young girl and she had heights fear that he didn't know about, on takeoff she grabbed the stick and froze, and he kicked her in the face to save the situation. I'm also doing discovery flights and thinking to myself I would do that definitely if encounter this kind of issue
The narrator here Richard McSpadden has recently passed away in an aircraft accident. Richard has been an invaluable source of knowledge with these accident reports, and I'm struggling to comprehend how this could happen. RIP to a wonderful human, thanks for all you've done for this community.
He didn’t follow his own advice by flying in an old plane and they did an impossible turn on engine out. Always find an airport with a lot of open space around the runways.
In two to three years the NTSB will say that the crash was due to the pilot exceeding the critical angle of attack. We already know that. They probably will not broach the root cause, the psychological state (fear) of the student. We need a major shift in the way the NTSB investigates GA accidents and the FAA needs to issue “real world” circulars in a TIMELY manner. Perhaps the insurance companies will need to step in.
During my training, my instructor simply let me know that she would hit me in the face to get me to release the controls if necessary. I appreciated the warning and, thankfully, never had to experience this type of correction first hand.
As a pro now, but have kept my CFI current all these years I never had a situation like that. I would have to say it’s terrifying to think about it. I have had some students do some really dumb things and yelling at them LOUDLY would get them to give up control. Sorry to hear this happen to this kid as he was just starting his life.
I watch either or all approaches, but have found that an aggressive approach gets the point across better than a sterile one. Sometimes you have to be blunt with people, especially when your goal is to keep them from killing themselves or others.
Im a CFI and was always afraid of this happening, and I heard an interesting tactic for this... if a student won't release controls, just reach over and cover their eyes with your hand. Apparently they will let go and reach up to remove your hand, and then you have controls again. Definitely a last resort but could help! :)
I always briefed my students on control transfer and told them very clearly that if they didn't relinquish controls in a timely manner and it was a safety of flight issue, I would punch them in the face. This wasn't hyperbolic or a joke, but rather a sober statement demonstrating the seriousness of the situation.
Possibly a sudden pitch up, human reaction is to grab on to something to not “fall backwards”.. if that thing happens to be the stick, you just keep pulling harder and harder. Reminds me of a seat sliding back on take off.
After hearing that very sad recording the firs thing I thought was that that the seat could have broken or slid back but just a sudden jolt backwards could give the illusion of falling and the first reaction from a non pro would be to grab onto something. Very tragic! My thoughts and prayers are with these two and their families!
@@JasonFlorida The seats in the PiperSport don't move, rather the rudder pedals can be moved back and forth. But regardless a jolt of turbulence could've had the same effect.
While this is an early analysis, could be wrong or correct, but what I am sure of, this video is opening pilot's eyes on the person siting in the next seat and the hazards associated if they get panicked or disoriented... Thanks for bringing this up... Rest in peace both.... Pilot.
I've twice flown with friends, non-pilot, non-student pilot, who froze on the controls. One was at altitude was finally distracted. The other was on the runway, landing, and had been doing a great job of following instructions until I said to use both feet and brake gently. "Brake" was interpreted as right foot only, and as the plane started to slide, she froze. I had to pinch her leg, hard, to get her to release. Apologies were accepted afterwards, but still....
Thanks for the respectful and considered reporting of this. I often fly a very similar aircraft (Evektor Harmony) with passengers who haven't ever been in a light aircraft before. Watching this has given me a little pause and I'm now considering what actions I'd take if a passenger, in a state of panic, grabbed at the controls during a critical phase of flight. Keep it up mate - it's really appreciated.
@Brandy Balloon This was the 3rd or 4th flight for this student, apparently. I personally think physical contact via an elbow to the ribs or even the temple is acceptable in instances where another party has taken control.
This is way I think Diamond making planes that have removable sticks for the right side is such a good idea. If you have a non pilot, not ever going to fly it, type passenger in the right seat it's safer to just not give them anything to grab.
As a CFI this is why I always do the first few takeoffs and landings. I may let a student do an approach, but that’s about it. Its hard for CFIs to remember their first time in an airplane, but I do remember my first time in a helicopter and how jarring it was. For certain people its pretty terrifying and filled with a lot of unusual sensations they haven’t had before, which will lead to unpredictable reactions. Me doing the first few takeoffs and landings helps with that. On top of that you get them a good feel at cruise(and if you can get them to do slow flight even better) at a safe altitude that gives you time to recover if they do something stupid.
The MKE-GADO POI who administered my initial CFIA way back when was debriefing mr after what turned out to be a successful flight check. During the debrief he told me, and I’m eternally grateful, how to get a students hands off the control yoke or stick. He told me there’s little time to be nice when the death grip means you’ve got a good chance to be dead. His advice- take your fist and hit the panicked student in the throat, the “Adams Apple” he noted on my throat. He said the student will let go, grab his throat and the two of us would live. Worry about any after effect consequences when you get on the ground is what he told me. That message was driven home about six months later when I had to do that to a primary student would pushed almost full forward on the yoke and throttle of a Cessna 150 during stall recovery exercises he’d done well at before. He was a burley guy who just zoned out, pushed full power and almost full down elevator. Did take long to go from a bit more than 4,000’ AGL to 2500. After my second command, “Let go of the controls!!!” I recalled the POI’s counsel. I gripped the yolk with my left hand and gave this guy a vicious punch into his Adams apple with my right hand. He let go of the yoke and throttle, grasping his throat, choking, just like the POI told me would happen. I was able to recover with the 150’s ASI needle resting against the little metal peg on it. I’ll never forget that as long as I live. I thank you, Lou L. from the Milwaukee FAA GADO for his good advice to a new CFI. It allowed me to live to a ripe old age and enjoy over 7,000-hours of flight instructing. That was the only serious, life threatening incident that ever happened to me and it was shortly after obtaining my CFIA. Oh yes, after we landed I was called numerous names and threatened with an assault charge. The student actually called the county sheriffs office and swore out a complaint. After hearing what occurred the deputy suggested the student withdraw his complaint. Never went to court or had any further action taken against me. The student never returned and the FBO owner wasn’t upset. Thankfully.
I think that explanation is more likely than others I have heard so far. I want to believe that anyone wanting to learn to fly would not have ignored the pilot's command to let go or even took command of the aircraft in such an aggressive way. Do we know the age of the student?
As part of my CFI training, my instructor grabbed controls and tried to forced a spin. I did not let him. I had to put in some serous muscle into the controls. He had a point, you must do whatever to protect yourself and the student. Students and passengers are not to be trusted ever.
Why during my 1st pre-flight briefing I go over exchange of flight controls and explain that if something unsafe happens, I will take the controls and they will let go or I will punch them in the throat. Unfortunately not a lot of time to do that in this case.
My friend was the student pilot. I believe this was his first flight. And that is not him saying “let go” fyi. It haunts me to hear what I think is him panicking. 😢
I was friends with the instructor. What do you think happened here? Why would he pull aft on the stick like that so close to the ground? Was he serious about becoming a pilot?
@@deucemeister sorry for your loss Mike.. Guessing something happened that caused my friend to grab the stick, hearing Christian yell "Let go" makes me think thats what happened... Not sure if he panicked because of an event, his seat came undone, some medical issue... who knows... but thats my guess after watching this video and hearing the audio... And no, I don't think he had serious ambitions to become a pilot... This flight was originally booked by a family member who as i understand couldn't go and offered it to him last minute...
I believe I experienced wake turbulence from a King Air that made a touch and go before I departed in my Mooney. Not serious, but sufficient to make me wary of that size aircraft in the future. Very sad story.
Would in this case ATC had to cater for a longer distance? That was one of the lessons of AA 587. It depends of course on whether the airport was busy etc but maybe ATC and / or the CFI could have factored that in in their decision-making.
@kenj Thank you - Most likely both ATC and the pilots underestimated wake turbulence? To the defense of ATC, they are not pilots themselves. I have found two other CA accidents related to wake turbulence: (a) The first was on 4 Nov 2008, a Learjet 45 was on landing approach to Mexico City when it encountered wake turbulence from a B727. It then crashed, and investigation found out the crew did not even have proper certification. (b) The second happened over the Indian Ocean on 7 January 2017, a Challenger 604 flew 1000 ft. below an A380 of Emirates who was travelling into the opposite direction. The Challenger got into the A380's wake turbulence, rolled over 3 - 5 times, with both engines flaming out and losing 10.000 ft before the pilot could somehow regain control. The plane was so badly damaged it had to be written off.
This wake turbulence was probably heard (on the radio), by the student and contributed to the panic to yank back on the stick with a death grip. The CFI was unable to overpower the student here. I’ve flown this exact model and it is a two finger sensitive stick; instant response and very nice plane.
I brief passengers that Hollywood is inaccurate…and pulling back in an emergency will result in certain death. I also state that I will not hesitate to knock them out if they grab the yoke in an emergency. Not enough time or altitude here unfortunately.
I have a stomach for trauma, but that audio makes me sick. Happens So quick with so little time to react. Pure terror in the instructors voice. He knew exactly what this meant.
@@kewkabe Yeah I don't think you know stall recovery. Stalls are the exact opposite of what you think. The nose of the plane is usually pointed upward at a steep angle beyond whats called the critical angle of attack (AOA) for the wings (airfoil). In an unwanted stall you are trying to pitch the nose down. They went up at a steep angle, got into an unrecoverable stall and rolled towards terrain.
@@BeAManPodkast That's the initiation of the stall. The aircraft then rolls and the nose drops. If you keep the stick held back as the nose drops, you worsen the situation. But a non-pilot like the passenger would probably hold the stick back like he did in response to the nose dropping.
@@kewkabe this is the same as driving in a car, panicking due to the speed, and someone grabbing the wheel and driving it toward a tree. Panicking does not make it excusable. You are on a training mission for a reason, because you trust the pilot. They even explain this situation before the flight in most cases, to release the controls and let the pro handle it. Personally I would have a small bat or something on me, something to incapacitate the student. People can control panic to some degree. I panic in water. When I almost drowned, I was told to quit fighting, which I did. Panic or not, if that's what happened, its on the student. It will continue to happen, even though its inexcusable.
As a flight instructor I always carried a large flashlight and instructed the student that I would knock him unconscious if he failed to relinquish control when I told him it was “MY PLANE”! Looks like the light sport hit “prop wash” from the departing King Air and someone panicked (presumably the student). So sad!
I’d like to think I’d never just yank back on the controls out of panic, but I might just tell my CFI he has my blessing to throat chop me if I ever do lol. Better than the alternative I suppose.
When starting flight training 20+ years ago I don’t remember that my instructor broached the subject. He could have, but it didn’t make enough of an impression on me that I remembered. He did take the controls once, to land the plane (C172) because of very high crosswind and turbulence, but he didn’t use any standard phrase like “my plane.”
My instructor told about a pupil who had done everything correctly during the flight, and then when about to start the flare, pulled up to about 30ft and into a stall. They both survived, but the poor Grob got somewhat bent.
UPDATE: The National Transportation Safety Board has released its preliminary report (WPR22FA338) regarding the investigation into the Santa Monica Training Flight accident with a CSA PiperSport (N126WK). data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/105890/pdf
I had a passenger pull back on the yolk just after takeoff because they were trying to scoot their seat forward and needed something to pull against. Luckily was a small woman and she let go quickly.
I agree with some hesitation. Instead, it might be wiser to somehow screen potential students, or new students. Possibly by subjecting them to abnormal attitudes in a simulator prior to flight.
@@Richard-nq5pj It's just not practical. People just show up at small aviation outfits and decide right there and then they want to go on an orientation flight. Perhaps though a strict briefing and review could be used for instance like for first timers at shooting ranges.
@@Richard-nq5pj except that, if you watch the videos on this channel, you'll see A LOT of crashes from very experienced pilots who got disorientated in the clouds. Maybe the training doesn't go far enough?
This is why I'm a very strong advocate for all CFI's to carry tazers. When the student grabs the yoke in an aggressive manner, the CFI simply screams "TAZER TAZER TAZER" and lets him have 1,000,000 volts to think about until his next lesson. Screaming "STOP RESISTING STOP RESISTING" also helps, but isn't often necessary. And as an added bonus, you'd be surprised how quickly your students will clean up their sloppy pattern and radio work under the threat of a tazing. Every CFI flight bag should have this versatile tool, fully charged and ready for action.
That is really not a well thought out recommendation. You really think in the kind of scenario/sequence @ KSMO, that the CFI would have time to pull a Taser and deploy it?
There's a sound during the second series of "Let go!" Interspersed with those shouts is a lower-pitched rhythmic "Nnnn" that reminds me of a sound I once heard someone make when they were having a seizure. Of course, we can't know. But if one of them was seizing inside that small cockpit...
Wow. 3 of my kids have done discovery flights. I was up there for one of them and the guy let my son have a little stick time at cruising altitude. Never thought about how dangerous they could be for the CFI.
As an instructor, one thing I had always tried to do was to get the student involved in the orientation flight as much as I could since that is the biggest source of allure that gets the student to commit. Some students were so talented and had flight sim experience to the point where I was tempted to let them land the airplane on the first flight, at most I let them feel what I was doing. I had heard horror stories of instructors trusting talented students too early and getting themselves and/or the student killed. Many instructors die in stall and landing training because of students panicking or because the instructor was late to recognize that the student was in trouble and couldn't overpower or react in time. My guess, is that the instructor was letting the student practice landing and the student hit some low level turbulence and pulled on the stick by instinct and stalled the plane before the instructor could intervene.
Trim works wonders. Just got to use trim slowly and be ready to "untrim". Also stiffening your arm or "locking" your elbows in front of yoke to prevent someone from pulling back. When a student panics and pulls back, the yoke hits the palm of of hand which are "gaurding" the yoke and their hands will usually fall off the yoke as they pull back in such a hurry. With a yoke my palms of one hand are between me and the yoke and usually i close my thumb and pointing finger around the yoke making a hole. With a stick I have both hands (unless I need a free hand to perform a task) in a shape of a donut or hole and is placed around the stick limiting the sticks overall movement. This allows me to keep the student from over correcting and getting into bad situations . Over time as the student progresses I make the hole bigger and then eventually a casual but ready guarding of the yoke or stick. I use this techniques regularly and works well to keep us out of these bad situations. I have quite a few stories of how each method worked flawlessly. Last ditch effort would be to bring my hands very quickly up to the student's face. The natural reaction would be for the student to let go and gaurd /defend their face. I fortunately have never got that far to use this method. This is so unfortunate and seems like a lack of experience. Lite sports (especially the piper) are very pitch sensitive and not something to let your gaurd down.
@@sigbauer9782 hard to believe the student was yelling let go. If he was, the most likely outcome was that the instructor intentionally pitched up to stall the plane in a murder-suicide.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 compare the "let go" to the previous ATC comms, not dissimilar. Then note the other voice overlapping "let go", an unintelligible grunt/effort noise which sounds quite different from previous ATC comms
@@gumbyshrimp2606 Not unheard of to have a pilot deliberately crash a plane because of personal issues. I can't believe WX or WT could even have been an issue. They flew a pretty good distance without incident and the PIC seemed to be able to control the AC. I don't know what his TT in AC is, but they seemed to be able to handle the plane. On my PPC checkride, on my last landing, we came over the treeline on the south end, winds were gusty and brisk, so lots of movement. Just as we got over the top of those trees on final, we had a quick dip in altitude, but also were now over grass and almost on the tarmac (think of it as an inverse speed bump, where instead of bumping up and then down, we went down and then back to level). No danger at all, but the examiner (not panicked but yeah) quickly throttled-up and yanked on the controls! Didn't say it was her controls, she just did it. I did a quick look at her, as "what the fuck you doing?" and just maintained my path and GS and landed...perfectly. She almost messed me up because it was the short-field landing, where you have to hit the mark. As we taxied, and I looked at her again, she asked if all of my landings were this smooth (yeah- the three I had that day were all butta, which somewhat surprised me too, lol). We talked about what happened a little, but she did remind me, before we got in the plane and after the landing, that she can get a bit spooked (not the word she used, but I can't remember), and will grab the controls even if not justified. My instructor and her were family friends and when I told him, he was like, "yeah, that's her". I guess self-preservation is a strong force. Apologies about the length, but again, I can't see WX or pilot-induced error being issues. I'm hoping it was a mechanical defect because to think that one of them deliberately did this just makes me shudder.
This seems to be coming up more frequently lately. Sounds like another tool instructors need to add to their tools and techniques is the "Elbow To The Nose" maneuver to be applied quickly and in rapid succession until the student releases the controls.
How about an automatic stick/yoke override that could be part of training aircraft on the right side since most CFI’s sit on the right seat! A tension clip that would release the left side control if both are struggling! Just a thought 🤔
As someone who doesn't know planes much, is there no override button on the sidestick? If not, could it be easily implemented by changing the sidestick module to have one?
An "override" implies a fly-by-wire aircraft, where the two sticks/yokes merely tell a computer what control surfaces to move. In that case a button could exist to tell the computer to ignore the passenger's input. However, virtually every light aircraft has simple mechanical linkages. I suppose a mechanical disconnect and/or weak-link could be implemented, but I've not heard of any, and in a true instruction scenario the instructor is sitting in the passenger seat.
Are control sticks/yokes in civil aviation physically linked so that it's just whoever is strongest gets to steer, or are there also planes that if the left seat gives different commands than the right seat the left seat gets precedent? What about in commercial aviation?
Seems like many of our CFI’s have these panic stories. My first CFI had a passenger - not a student - panic and grab the controls during flight in actual IMC. The passenger wouldn’t release the controls until she backhanded him in the face. Scary stuff.
I wouldn't rule out structural failure just yet, it's plausible that something happened and the CFI assumed it was the student pulling on the stick when it wasn't especially in a moment of panic like that.
@@noshurviverse8388 Very strange indeed. Some people always want to blame the plane. They had flown an entire flight up the coast performing 360 turns and all. That plane was fine.
I had to do a 360° in my Skyhawk to let a Challenger land first, and I ran right into his wake. It was quite a bit more powerful than I would have thought, perhaps causing more than 30° of uncommanded bank; I don't recall any real pitch excursions, but I was pointing the nose down anyway (I love to "chop and drop" with the barn doors out.) Nowhere near loss of control, but certainly required action. I don't know if the KA would have caused the same effect.
As a student pilot, this is why you wait for the wake turbulence to dissolve. Which is approximately 2-3 minutes. I live in Lakeland, so we constantly have Prime Air in and out. And plus land beyond the aircrafts takeoff point.
sounds like a CFI got killed by a panicked (or suicidal?) student. You can hear a second voice making 'oh' sounds, like maybe they were getting hit?? When it gets that bad, you need to take some immediate drastic action. People say cover the eyes, or something, and that might work, eventually, but a the edge of the hand smacking the Adams apple is highly effective at distracting someone from a behavior, as being temporarily unable to breath makes one forget about everything else. Remember, someone that scared is pumped full of adrenaline, and anything that is less life threatening (to them) than what they are focused on will not get noticed.
Very possibly suicidal, but it’s impossible to say for certain. Either way idk how quickly I would be able to react to a similar situation. I would hope that I could incapacitate the left-seater trying to kill us, but I can’t know for sure how I would react in that scenario.
I wonder if the student had the stick (???), and it was the instructor panicked and screaming, "Let go! Let go!" Because having it the other way around makes no sense.
This is very much the equivalent of a motorcycle rider traveling at a good speed when he sees what he thinks is a car about to pull out in front of him, so he panics and prematurely grabs too much front brake, he loses control of the bike and crashes. Here, I think the student may have overestimated whatever he thought was a danger.
I find it unbelievable that cars can be outfitted with a system to disable the steering and brakes of a student driver, but for a much more high risk situation like flying, there isn't more thought put into something like that. I suppose nobody thinks it's their problem. Maybe someone should though?
I think it’s because proportionally more people who don’t want to drive or would be bad at it, still take driving lessons because they HAVE to drive to get to work etc. It’s not the same with flying. The risk that you would have a panicky student is lower.
@@Sashazur Yes I can understand that that is the reasoning behind why things are the way they are, and so it's just all the more upsetting to see that the reasoning has entirely to do with minimizing cost saving rather than wanting to maximize human safety. Cost saving at the risk of human life is inherently an inhumane choice incompatible with living in a human society in my opinion. Within reason.
I have flown many SLSAs. It is a DISASTER to attempt to take a runway where a much heavier plane, like the King Air or worse, a commercial jet or military aircraft is taking off, or just landing. SLSA are like feathers, they land without power and glide to the runway. The stick is also VERY touchy and they will float. Many seasoned pilots use to heavier planes and more pressure on a yoke or stick have trouble transition and flying an SLSA.
This is an unimaginable tragedy. Recently I viewed a FlightChops podcast, "Fatal Loss of Control plane crash? Every 4 days! Airliner differences + GA’s 4 big Failures," where Dan Gryder, having lost a number of friends to stall-spins, was relentlessly drilling maintaining DMMS until it became reflexive not to pull-back on the stick. Accordingly, it seems like essential training for PPL students prior to giving them control at low altitudes because you might not get it back.
Not that it detracts from Dan’s point, but he was also arrested for ignoring law enforcement who were trying to cite him. He started up his DC-3, threatened a police officer, and taxied to the runway. Delta fired him for that, hence the esteemed title of “former airline pilot.” Not exactly the most safety-conscience of actions. He also crashed a 150 last year because he planned a low approach with the flaps fully extended and then they apparently wouldn’t retract. He did maintain aircraft control into the ground though, so he’s got that going for him 😅
I wonder if perhaps the student was subjected to some manoeuvres that frightened him/her on this familiarization flight, and then the student finally went full-panic on landing approach? A CFI should closely monitor a new student and watch for signs of withdrawal into fear, such as a chatty student suddenly becoming quiet and unresponsive. Watch their hands, maybe they are looking around for an escape, refusing to look forward at the sky. Maybe ask the student directly about his/her state of mind.....maybe a go-around might give the student a moment to gather wits. This was a very sad story.
You never know about your students; unlikely, but still open to consideration is possibility that the student may have committed a planned suicide (and murder).
Yeah, the airport where I (later) learned to fly may have had one of those back in the late 90s. That was the relatively common speculation, as the circumstances of the crash made no sense and the NTSB couldn't find a cause.
@@paulloveless9180 murder-suicide yes. If it was the student’s 2nd orientation flight, he may have already learned that pitching up too high on final would stall an aircraft and crash. He made up his mind that he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, taking the instructor with him.
On Kathryn's Report there are witnesses who reported a loud bang before the sudden pitch up. Maybe the engine blew, instructor flying naturally pushed nose lower, and the combination of the loud sound and dropping the nose so low to the ground made the student panic. He then grabbed back on the stick and froze.
Yes, I don't think we can rule out (or even minimize the possibility) there was some kind of malfunction. Malfunctions don't mean guaranteed death or even crash if you are able to handle it. If you have a sudden loss of power, for instance, and you're just about to land, you can obviously glide that to a safe landing if you're a trained pilot. Same goes for any other kind of malfunction. The CFI could have very well said "let go" to perform his expertise and land a damaged aircraft safely, which a student with only a few hours if that can't be expected to do. Certainly something must have spooked and panicked the student. Assuming this is a student on his first flight, that could be anything from unexpected windshear to a bird suddenly coming in too close, or even just some kind of anxiety at coming closer and closer to the ground at a low pitch attitude and letting instincts overrule and pitching it up abruptly. I don't know what the student's history is like or what circumstances brought them to a flying school that day if it was their first or second day. Discovery flight students are often not serious about flying but just want to try something out, possibly even having gotten a gift certificate or something for their birthday. I don't know anything about the affected aircraft or its characteristics, whether it's easy to stall or spin. But as someone who's started a PPL journey a year ago, I can say the first few lessons you tend to overcorrect hard on what should be light corrections, you're going to have to listen to your CFI when he says you have to keep pointing the nose down until several feet off the ground, and above all, let the CFI perform the first couple of landings and observe the phases.
@@aviation_nut Very well said 👌 While everyone is talking about the "Let Go", we also have to mention the voices the student was making during this incident... You can hear the student making noises on the background, something like "panicking" or "fighting something"... That's why it's called "discovery flight, or First flight", the students themselves doesn't know their reaction or behaviors until the experience a real flight. This airplane have a "Control Stick between the legs like the helicopter", if the student panicked and locked on the "control stick" then it will not be easy to overcome. Unfortunately, now we know what's the reaction of this student... This CFI was working to overcome both the student's panic strength and the airplane itself... Too much to work on in this low altitude and landing configuration. Rest in peace, both of them... Pilot.
For the benefit of us non-pilots who aren't familiar w/ the aircraft in question, do I gather that it is not dual control, that there is only one stick between the seats? So left seat pilot uses right hand and right seat uses left? If so, then a right handed student in the right seat just may not have enough precision in his left hand to make small inputs. Overdoes it and then panics.
I think we should consider the possibility that the "new student" had nefarious intentions. Could this be a murder/suicide? Either way, I've heard that if you cover somebody's eyes their natural instinct is to move their hands, which might cause them to let go. I don't have any data to prove that but it's a thought to consider.
I suggest this theory as the events leading up to the accident. The student pilot on his second orientation flight was tasked with landing the airplane, which is not uncommon (though the CFI was obviously ghosting the controls). In the process of that landing, the CFI noticed that the student was pulling too far back too early and the airplane was about to stall. The CFI instinctively pushed forward to prevent that. Now terrified that the instructor was pushing the controls down to (what the student perceived to be) a crash landing, the student held firm on the yoke. He was scared and did not want the plane to touch the ground, and while screaming at the CFI to “let go”, the plane crashed after a spin.
This is fucked up but I was friends with the student and it sounds like his voice yelling let go. Could have been a higher pitched panic of the instructor but I think it was my friend and your explanation could explain why.
@@sallegaert1 was your friend passionate about learning to fly? Trying to ascertain why someone taking an introductory flight lesson would have such a reaction to a normal landing.
One thing I noticed that no one else has pointed out is the grunting that you can hear on the recording. Sounds like someone mimicking a gorilla and I assume it was the student making the noise. I wonder is this an indication of a panic attack of some sort. Maybe the NTSB can get a behavioral expert to analyze the recording and come to some kind of conclusion about mental state.
One more thing, I really doubt that telling a student you will 'knock them out' if they freeze on the controls, will help anything. Panic is panic. Adding to anxiety by making a student worry about making a mistake (the student doesn't know what YOU consider, 'freezing'), and getting smashed in the face, isn't what we need to bring new people into a sport that is already bleeding to death due to spiraling costs and constant fear-mongering by media and social sites. Before we teach a new student how to control an airplane, we should first take them through a few gentle practice manoeuvers, and see that they are comfortable with them. Then, teach them to use the controls. Instead of threatening them, tell them 'if you don't feel right or stop 'having fun', tell me and I will land immediately"
Thank you - Looks similar to the American Airlines flight 587 crash, where the plane encountered turbulence from a departing B747 and the pilot aggressively used rudder instead of having the autopilot manage it, with the rudder fin detaching ultimately.
Just a thought, don't shoot me: everyone seems to think it's "let go" of controls/yoke. I know how gruesome it sounds, but by way of future caution... what it if was "let go" of my arms? Side note: many reports say 15 year old student. Better reports say a 28 year old male, possibly on first, not second ever flight.
From the grunts on the audio it sounded like a full grown man. I'm curious though why would he panic so late in the flight. Makes me wonder what rest of the flight was like with them being out so long and doing 360 turns. Could this have been a sudden medical event?
When I first met my CFI, he told me a story about a student he had that wouldn’t hand over controls and was about to stall the lane in the pattern. The CFI was yelling “my plane!” and trying to push forward. As it was starting to feel like the break into a spin was imminent, he stabbed the student in the leg with his pen. That was enough to get the student to release the controls.
Very true. In lifeguarding, we are taught that one of the most useful tools in trying to save someone in the water, who is panicking, so they won't drown you too, is a very hard elbow to the face, head, or somewhere else that will subdue them.
Reading the lifeguard comment brought me back! Had a few i stances where i had to be very agressive in tone to bring someone out of a self obsessed panic. Another time as a scuba i structor i had to punch a guy in the face (mask) to stop him from pulling everything off of my face while on the surface. All is well that ends well. It seems so strange to have to be scary to save someone's life. The recording is a bit chilling in this case. 😬
@@Cousin. I've never heard of that lol. I've heard of approaching them from behind if possible, to then grab them onto your chest and you swim on your back. There's no chance an elbow is gonna work, you'd have to be very close to them and by that range theyre probably already grabbing onto you
@@rykehuss3435 I agree, I've never heard of the elbow to the face/head either. One of my good friends was a lifeguard and collegiate swimmer and what he had told me was that if the person is panicking, you simply back away until they either calm down or are overcome by exhaustion/water intake. At that point, you're able to safely move in and rescue them.
@@rykehuss3435 That's what I'm referring to. And that is exactly how we were taught. Once you have them, if they are fighting, and not letting go, that's what you use.
True, if you can see that they are already panicked, and you can't get near them, we have to wait until they go under, but again, once you have them, if they start grabbing you and taking you with them; pow! Are you a lifeguard? I'd be curious where you're getting your ideas from? Your comment sounds like something someone would think, without actually having done it, or having been in that situation.
Once again, a highly professional and non-emotional brief by an accomplished presenter. While the news is nearly always sad, the presentation is satisfying and thought-provoking.
The FAA should consider including this scenario as a required item in the CFI practical test, in the same way that spins, runway incursions and endorsements are. This situation can very likely be fatal to the unprepared CFI. It wasn't until my 2nd year as a CFI that I was asked what my strategy would be for handling a situation where the student wouldn't release the controls during a critical phase. (for those wondering- a quick chop to the nose or throat) I hadn't even really considered it until I was challenged on it, and in the moment is not a good time to figure something like that out.
agreed, strategies for getting them to release controls needs to be taught.
well said!
Thank you for the warning before playing the tape. I already decided not to listen to it when it happened and I appreciated having the chance to skip it in your video as well.
Why would you be scared to listen to an atc recording? Makes no sense unless you’re a low IQ…..seriously.
Thank you for doing these early analysis videos. As a fresh CFI who does a lot of discovery flights and has a good bit of brand new PPL students this is a good reminder to always expect the unexpected. Students freezing up on the controls during critical phases of flight is certainly one of those situations I hope doesn't occur, and if it does I hope I can get them to relinquish controls before were in an irrecoverable situation.
An elbow to the head should make the student relinquish controls.
Yeah it sounds like a good thing to make them aware of. They don't touch the controls. Maybe prepare an elbow if they go complete lockup. Such an unnecessary way to die.
@@DanFrederiksen Thankfully you can usually tell pretty quickly if you have a student who may have abnormal reactions to stress; however, you can never be 100% sure. On discovery flights if I feel comfortable with the student I'll have them "follow along" with me on the controls while I'm taking off and landing but if they show signs of stress or nervousness, or if they're jumpy I'll tell them to keep their feet on the floor and hands in their lap.
Yea def prepare the elbow, I heard from my colleague one guy had discovery flight with one young girl and she had heights fear that he didn't know about, on takeoff she grabbed the stick and froze, and he kicked her in the face to save the situation. I'm also doing discovery flights and thinking to myself I would do that definitely if encounter this kind of issue
@@crohr1000 damn, that sounds extreme. I didn't know students were that difficult :)
The narrator here Richard McSpadden has recently passed away in an aircraft accident. Richard has been an invaluable source of knowledge with these accident reports, and I'm struggling to comprehend how this could happen. RIP to a wonderful human, thanks for all you've done for this community.
Makes me not want to fly
He didn’t follow his own advice by flying in an old plane and they did an impossible turn on engine out. Always find an airport with a lot of open space around the runways.
In two to three years the NTSB will say that the crash was due to the pilot exceeding the critical angle of attack. We already know that. They probably will not broach the root cause, the psychological state (fear) of the student. We need a major shift in the way the NTSB investigates GA accidents and the FAA needs to issue “real world” circulars in a TIMELY manner. Perhaps the insurance companies will need to step in.
The more standard response to unknown cause is “pilot failed to maintain adequate ground separation.”
Dan Gryder agrees.
@@bw162 Thats what happens with every landing
@@paulloveless9180 👍
Likely, the best way to do that is to mandate CVRs and FDRs in ALL aircraft. I can assure you AOPA and EAA will fight that to the bitter end.
During my training, my instructor simply let me know that she would hit me in the face to get me to release the controls if necessary. I appreciated the warning and, thankfully, never had to experience this type of correction first hand.
As a pro now, but have kept my CFI current all these years I never had a situation like that. I would have to say it’s terrifying to think about it.
I have had some students do some really dumb things and yelling at them LOUDLY would get them to give up control. Sorry to hear this happen to this kid as he was just starting his life.
So was the instructor, she was only in her early 20s I believe.
@ko7577 nope the instructor was a 21 Yr old female, the student pilot was male.
NOPE. Christian West was the CFI. A male. The voice you hear, the male voice, yelling to let go is his.@@davidbarrass5210
Thank you Richard and AOPA for doing these early analyses. Your neutral approach is much better than other RUclipsr takes.
I watch either or all approaches, but have found that an aggressive approach gets the point across better than a sterile one. Sometimes you have to be blunt with people, especially when your goal is to keep them from killing themselves or others.
Im a CFI and was always afraid of this happening, and I heard an interesting tactic for this... if a student won't release controls, just reach over and cover their eyes with your hand. Apparently they will let go and reach up to remove your hand, and then you have controls again. Definitely a last resort but could help! :)
I like the throat punch. It will have the same result as the student will instinctively grab at their throat in the universal choking sign!
@@57JimmyI think a throat chop would be a lot easier when sitting next to someone
I always briefed my students on control transfer and told them very clearly that if they didn't relinquish controls in a timely manner and it was a safety of flight issue, I would punch them in the face. This wasn't hyperbolic or a joke, but rather a sober statement demonstrating the seriousness of the situation.
Possibly a sudden pitch up, human reaction is to grab on to something to not “fall backwards”.. if that thing happens to be the stick, you just keep pulling harder and harder. Reminds me of a seat sliding back on take off.
After hearing that very sad recording the firs thing I thought was that that the seat could have broken or slid back but just a sudden jolt backwards could give the illusion of falling and the first reaction from a non pro would be to grab onto something. Very tragic! My thoughts and prayers are with these two and their families!
Very, very good point.
@@JasonFlorida The seats in the PiperSport don't move, rather the rudder pedals can be moved back and forth. But regardless a jolt of turbulence could've had the same effect.
While this is an early analysis, could be wrong or correct, but what I am sure of, this video is opening pilot's eyes on the person siting in the next seat and the hazards associated if they get panicked or disoriented... Thanks for bringing this up... Rest in peace both.... Pilot.
I've twice flown with friends, non-pilot, non-student pilot, who froze on the controls. One was at altitude was finally distracted. The other was on the runway, landing, and had been doing a great job of following instructions until I said to use both feet and brake gently. "Brake" was interpreted as right foot only, and as the plane started to slide, she froze. I had to pinch her leg, hard, to get her to release. Apologies were accepted afterwards, but still....
Thanks for the respectful and considered reporting of this.
I often fly a very similar aircraft (Evektor Harmony) with passengers who haven't ever been in a light aircraft before. Watching this has given me a little pause and I'm now considering what actions I'd take if a passenger, in a state of panic, grabbed at the controls during a critical phase of flight. Keep it up mate - it's really appreciated.
Yup, Same here.
@Brandy Balloon This was the 3rd or 4th flight for this student, apparently. I personally think physical contact via an elbow to the ribs or even the temple is acceptable in instances where another party has taken control.
This is way I think Diamond making planes that have removable sticks for the right side is such a good idea. If you have a non pilot, not ever going to fly it, type passenger in the right seat it's safer to just not give them anything to grab.
Several friends of the instructor already confirmed the voice yelling, 'let go!' was his.
As a CFI this is why I always do the first few takeoffs and landings. I may let a student do an approach, but that’s about it. Its hard for CFIs to remember their first time in an airplane, but I do remember my first time in a helicopter and how jarring it was. For certain people its pretty terrifying and filled with a lot of unusual sensations they haven’t had before, which will lead to unpredictable reactions. Me doing the first few takeoffs and landings helps with that. On top of that you get them a good feel at cruise(and if you can get them to do slow flight even better) at a safe altitude that gives you time to recover if they do something stupid.
yeah, I will have them follow along with me on the first takeoff and first few landings.
Chilling.
Thanks for the early look.
Great job. Thanks for your great information.
Student pilot locked up. Such a scary possibility
Once again tragic. Lately been far too many traffic pattern accidents. Hope the NTSB can figure this one out.
I wonder if the FBI will need to get involved to find out if the student crashed it on purpose.
@@nitehawk86 they might if there is any evidence these folks attended a school board meeting in years past
The MKE-GADO POI who administered my initial CFIA way back when was debriefing mr after what turned out to be a successful flight check.
During the debrief he told me, and I’m eternally grateful, how to get a students hands off the control yoke or stick. He told me there’s little time to be nice when the death grip means you’ve got a good chance to be dead. His advice- take your fist and hit the panicked student in the throat, the “Adams Apple” he noted on my throat. He said the student will let go, grab his throat and the two of us would live. Worry about any after effect consequences when you get on the ground is what he told me. That message was driven home about six months later when I had to do that to a primary student would pushed almost full forward on the yoke and throttle of a Cessna 150 during stall recovery exercises he’d done well at before. He was a burley guy who just zoned out, pushed full power and almost full down elevator. Did take long to go from a bit more than 4,000’ AGL to
2500. After my second command, “Let go of the controls!!!” I recalled the POI’s counsel. I gripped the yolk with my left hand and gave this guy a vicious punch into his Adams apple with my right hand. He let go of the yoke and throttle, grasping his throat, choking, just like the POI told me would happen. I was able to recover with the 150’s ASI needle resting against the little metal peg on it. I’ll never forget that as long as I live.
I thank you, Lou L. from the Milwaukee FAA GADO for his good advice to a new CFI. It allowed me to live to a ripe old age and enjoy over 7,000-hours of flight instructing.
That was the only serious, life threatening incident that ever happened to me and it was shortly after obtaining my CFIA.
Oh yes, after we landed I was called numerous names and threatened with an assault charge.
The student actually called the county sheriffs office and swore out a complaint. After hearing what occurred the deputy suggested the student withdraw his complaint. Never went to court or had any further action taken against me. The student never returned and the FBO owner wasn’t upset. Thankfully.
It was literally life or death. Justified use of force. Well done.
I always enjoy listening to Richard do these. He does a very good job. Very concise and to the point.
Wake up babe, new air safety Institute video just dropped
I can distinctively hear as the person is saying let go,the other person grunting. It could have been a medical issue i.e. seizure or cardiac event.
I heard it too. Hoping the NTSB can closely evaluate that audio and find out the cause of that grunting.
I heard the grunting and thought the same thing.
I believe this to be the case.
I think that explanation is more likely than others I have heard so far. I want to believe that anyone wanting to learn to fly would not have ignored the pilot's command to let go or even took command of the aircraft in such an aggressive way. Do we know the age of the student?
Thanks for the warning on the Audio Richard. Your description was informative, and adequate. I don't need to listen to the actual broadcast.
Well he didn't mention the student grunting in the audio which is even more telling.
@@BeAManPodkast it actually sounds like the student yelling let go. I knew him and it sounds like his voice :(
As part of my CFI training, my instructor grabbed controls and tried to forced a spin. I did not let him. I had to put in some serous muscle into the controls. He had a point, you must do whatever to protect yourself and the student. Students and passengers are not to be trusted ever.
This is when you have to use the punch in the face procedure to get them off the controls
but again, we don't know what was going on.
@@sigbauer9782 right. It’s a big mystery.
Why during my 1st pre-flight briefing I go over exchange of flight controls and explain that if something unsafe happens, I will take the controls and they will let go or I will punch them in the throat.
Unfortunately not a lot of time to do that in this case.
Wow. It’s been a while, and I was prepared for the host. God Bless.
My friend was the student pilot. I believe this was his first flight. And that is not him saying “let go” fyi. It haunts me to hear what I think is him panicking. 😢
I was friends with the instructor. What do you think happened here? Why would he pull aft on the stick like that so close to the ground? Was he serious about becoming a pilot?
@@deucemeister sorry for your loss Mike.. Guessing something happened that caused my friend to grab the stick, hearing Christian yell "Let go" makes me think thats what happened... Not sure if he panicked because of an event, his seat came undone, some medical issue... who knows... but thats my guess after watching this video and hearing the audio... And no, I don't think he had serious ambitions to become a pilot... This flight was originally booked by a family member who as i understand couldn't go and offered it to him last minute...
Sean do you know what he was making that grunting sound? Is it possible he had a medical emergency and seized up on the controls?
Sorry for your loss.
@@SeanMalarkey ... so everybody can stop saying "student"...?
I believe I experienced wake turbulence from a King Air that made a touch and go before I departed in my Mooney. Not serious, but sufficient to make me wary of that size aircraft in the future.
Very sad story.
Would in this case ATC had to cater for a longer distance? That was one of the lessons of AA 587. It depends of course on whether the airport was busy etc but maybe ATC and / or the CFI could have factored that in in their decision-making.
@@-rodolfo9582 ATC warned the pilot of wake turbulence and the pilot acknowledged. There was nothing else ATC needed to do.
@kenj Thank you - Most likely both ATC and the pilots underestimated wake turbulence? To the defense of ATC, they are not pilots themselves. I have found two other CA accidents related to wake turbulence: (a) The first was on 4 Nov 2008, a Learjet 45 was on landing approach to Mexico City when it encountered wake turbulence from a B727. It then crashed, and investigation found out the crew did not even have proper certification. (b) The second happened over the Indian Ocean on 7 January 2017, a Challenger 604 flew 1000 ft. below an A380 of Emirates who was travelling into the opposite direction. The Challenger got into the A380's wake turbulence, rolled over 3 - 5 times, with both engines flaming out and losing 10.000 ft before the pilot could somehow regain control. The plane was so badly damaged it had to be written off.
This wake turbulence was probably heard (on the radio), by the student and contributed to the panic to yank back on the stick with a death grip. The CFI was unable to overpower the student here. I’ve flown this exact model and it is a two finger sensitive stick; instant response and very nice plane.
The moaning was strange in the audio… scary stuff. Thanks for sharing!
Damn! There is no penetrating panic.
I brief passengers that Hollywood is inaccurate…and pulling back in an emergency will result in certain death. I also state that I will not hesitate to knock them out if they grab the yoke in an emergency. Not enough time or altitude here unfortunately.
Another excellent analysis.
I have a stomach for trauma, but that audio makes me sick. Happens So quick with so little time to react. Pure terror in the instructors voice. He knew exactly what this meant.
When I heard the last transmission it seemed clear to me that the student panicked.
Why, we’ll never know.
Why? He panicked because the airplane had stalled and was pointed at the ground. He was trying to get the nose back up not knowing stall recovery.
@@kewkabe
You don’t really understand the ‘stall’ thingy, do you?
@@kewkabe Yeah I don't think you know stall recovery. Stalls are the exact opposite of what you think. The nose of the plane is usually pointed upward at a steep angle beyond whats called the critical angle of attack (AOA) for the wings (airfoil). In an unwanted stall you are trying to pitch the nose down. They went up at a steep angle, got into an unrecoverable stall and rolled towards terrain.
@@BeAManPodkast That's the initiation of the stall. The aircraft then rolls and the nose drops. If you keep the stick held back as the nose drops, you worsen the situation. But a non-pilot like the passenger would probably hold the stick back like he did in response to the nose dropping.
@@kewkabe this is the same as driving in a car, panicking due to the speed, and someone grabbing the wheel and driving it toward a tree. Panicking does not make it excusable. You are on a training mission for a reason, because you trust the pilot. They even explain this situation before the flight in most cases, to release the controls and let the pro handle it. Personally I would have a small bat or something on me, something to incapacitate the student. People can control panic to some degree. I panic in water. When I almost drowned, I was told to quit fighting, which I did. Panic or not, if that's what happened, its on the student. It will continue to happen, even though its inexcusable.
Such a sad story. RIP.
THANKS for the SUPERB analysis.
My nephew died on this plane. Please let me know the NTBS investigation findings. Thank u.
So sorry for your loss. Awful. ❤
In Memory of the two lives lost on N126WK. -_-
As a flight instructor I always carried a large flashlight and instructed the student that I would knock him unconscious if he failed to relinquish control when I told him it was “MY PLANE”! Looks like the light sport hit “prop wash” from the departing King Air and someone panicked (presumably the student). So sad!
I’d like to think I’d never just yank back on the controls out of panic, but I might just tell my CFI he has my blessing to throat chop me if I ever do lol. Better than the alternative I suppose.
When starting flight training 20+ years ago I don’t remember that my instructor broached the subject. He could have, but it didn’t make enough of an impression on me that I remembered. He did take the controls once, to land the plane (C172) because of very high crosswind and turbulence, but he didn’t use any standard phrase like “my plane.”
My instructor told about a pupil who had done everything correctly during the flight, and then when about to start the flare, pulled up to about 30ft and into a stall. They both survived, but the poor Grob got somewhat bent.
UPDATE: The National Transportation Safety Board has released its preliminary report (WPR22FA338) regarding the investigation into the Santa Monica Training Flight accident with a CSA PiperSport (N126WK).
data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/105890/pdf
I had a passenger pull back on the yolk just after takeoff because they were trying to scoot their seat forward and needed something to pull against. Luckily was a small woman and she let go quickly.
Sometimes I think there should exist a mechanism to disengage the controls used by the less proffitient
I agree with some hesitation. Instead, it might be wiser to somehow screen potential students, or new students. Possibly by subjecting them to abnormal attitudes in a simulator prior to flight.
@@Richard-nq5pj It's just not practical. People just show up at small aviation outfits and decide right there and then they want to go on an orientation flight.
Perhaps though a strict briefing and review could be used for instance like for first timers at shooting ranges.
A detachable stick would be as much as I'd want as far as a mechanism that blocks control of the aircraft goes
@juan...The what?!?
@@Richard-nq5pj except that, if you watch the videos on this channel, you'll see A LOT of crashes from very experienced pilots who got disorientated in the clouds. Maybe the training doesn't go far enough?
This is why I'm a very strong advocate for all CFI's to carry tazers. When the student grabs the yoke in an aggressive manner, the CFI simply screams "TAZER TAZER TAZER" and lets him have 1,000,000 volts to think about until his next lesson. Screaming "STOP RESISTING STOP RESISTING" also helps, but isn't often necessary. And as an added bonus, you'd be surprised how quickly your students will clean up their sloppy pattern and radio work under the threat of a tazing. Every CFI flight bag should have this versatile tool, fully charged and ready for action.
That is really not a well thought out recommendation. You really think in the kind of scenario/sequence @ KSMO, that the CFI would have time to pull a Taser and deploy it?
Great channel thanks for the education
There's a sound during the second series of "Let go!" Interspersed with those shouts is a lower-pitched rhythmic "Nnnn" that reminds me of a sound I once heard someone make when they were having a seizure. Of course, we can't know. But if one of them was seizing inside that small cockpit...
Yeah, I could hear that too. That’s very likely.
Wow. 3 of my kids have done discovery flights. I was up there for one of them and the guy let my son have a little stick time at cruising altitude. Never thought about how dangerous they could be for the CFI.
As an instructor, one thing I had always tried to do was to get the student involved in the orientation flight as much as I could since that is the biggest source of allure that gets the student to commit. Some students were so talented and had flight sim experience to the point where I was tempted to let them land the airplane on the first flight, at most I let them feel what I was doing. I had heard horror stories of instructors trusting talented students too early and getting themselves and/or the student killed. Many instructors die in stall and landing training because of students panicking or because the instructor was late to recognize that the student was in trouble and couldn't overpower or react in time. My guess, is that the instructor was letting the student practice landing and the student hit some low level turbulence and pulled on the stick by instinct and stalled the plane before the instructor could intervene.
The only thing less likely than the NTSB releasing a report in 24-36 months is that they’ll have a meaningful probable cause or ANY recommendations.
Listening to that grunting, I almost think the student had a seizure.
Trim works wonders. Just got to use trim slowly and be ready to "untrim".
Also stiffening your arm or "locking" your elbows in front of yoke to prevent someone from pulling back. When a student panics and pulls back, the yoke hits the palm of of hand which are "gaurding" the yoke and their hands will usually fall off the yoke as they pull back in such a hurry.
With a yoke my palms of one hand are between me and the yoke and usually i close my thumb and pointing finger around the yoke making a hole. With a stick I have both hands (unless I need a free hand to perform a task) in a shape of a donut or hole and is placed around the stick limiting the sticks overall movement. This allows me to keep the student from over correcting and getting into bad situations . Over time as the student progresses I make the hole bigger and then eventually a casual but ready guarding of the yoke or stick.
I use this techniques regularly and works well to keep us out of these bad situations. I have quite a few stories of how each method worked flawlessly.
Last ditch effort would be to bring my hands very quickly up to the student's face. The natural reaction would be for the student to let go and gaurd /defend their face. I fortunately have never got that far to use this method.
This is so unfortunate and seems like a lack of experience.
Lite sports (especially the piper) are very pitch sensitive and not something to let your gaurd down.
The CFIs screams are chilling. I can’t help but listen to it over, and over again, knowing those cries were his last on this Earth.
we don't know whose voice that was.
@@sigbauer9782 hard to believe the student was yelling let go. If he was, the most likely outcome was that the instructor intentionally pitched up to stall the plane in a murder-suicide.
Sounded like a woman to me
@@gumbyshrimp2606 compare the "let go" to the previous ATC comms, not dissimilar. Then note the other voice overlapping "let go", an unintelligible grunt/effort noise which sounds quite different from previous ATC comms
@@gumbyshrimp2606 Not unheard of to have a pilot deliberately crash a plane because of personal issues. I can't believe WX or WT could even have been an issue. They flew a pretty good distance without incident and the PIC seemed to be able to control the AC. I don't know what his TT in AC is, but they seemed to be able to handle the plane.
On my PPC checkride, on my last landing, we came over the treeline on the south end, winds were gusty and brisk, so lots of movement. Just as we got over the top of those trees on final, we had a quick dip in altitude, but also were now over grass and almost on the tarmac (think of it as an inverse speed bump, where instead of bumping up and then down, we went down and then back to level). No danger at all, but the examiner (not panicked but yeah) quickly throttled-up and yanked on the controls! Didn't say it was her controls, she just did it.
I did a quick look at her, as "what the fuck you doing?" and just maintained my path and GS and landed...perfectly. She almost messed me up because it was the short-field landing, where you have to hit the mark.
As we taxied, and I looked at her again, she asked if all of my landings were this smooth (yeah- the three I had that day were all butta, which somewhat surprised me too, lol). We talked about what happened a little, but she did remind me, before we got in the plane and after the landing, that she can get a bit spooked (not the word she used, but I can't remember), and will grab the controls even if not justified.
My instructor and her were family friends and when I told him, he was like, "yeah, that's her". I guess self-preservation is a strong force.
Apologies about the length, but again, I can't see WX or pilot-induced error being issues. I'm hoping it was a mechanical defect because to think that one of them deliberately did this just makes me shudder.
This is terrifying as a pilot who loves and prefers to fly with others, need to remind passengers to stay away from the controls.
This seems to be coming up more frequently lately. Sounds like another tool instructors need to add to their tools and techniques is the "Elbow To The Nose" maneuver to be applied quickly and in rapid succession until the student releases the controls.
So sad how fast that happened
How about an automatic stick/yoke override that could be part of training aircraft on the right side since most CFI’s sit on the right seat! A tension clip that would release the left side control if both are struggling! Just a thought 🤔
As someone who doesn't know planes much, is there no override button on the sidestick? If not, could it be easily implemented by changing the sidestick module to have one?
An "override" implies a fly-by-wire aircraft, where the two sticks/yokes merely tell a computer what control surfaces to move. In that case a button could exist to tell the computer to ignore the passenger's input. However, virtually every light aircraft has simple mechanical linkages. I suppose a mechanical disconnect and/or weak-link could be implemented, but I've not heard of any, and in a true instruction scenario the instructor is sitting in the passenger seat.
What I don’t understand is, why would the student have the controls on landing, if it was a discovery flight?
Are control sticks/yokes in civil aviation physically linked so that it's just whoever is strongest gets to steer, or are there also planes that if the left seat gives different commands than the right seat the left seat gets precedent? What about in commercial aviation?
All I can think of is the student was landing and he got spooked by the prop wash of the King Air, and/or a botched attempted go around.
Seat unlocking and pax holding on to the stick?
Seems like many of our CFI’s have these panic stories. My first CFI had a passenger - not a student - panic and grab the controls during flight in actual IMC. The passenger wouldn’t release the controls until she backhanded him in the face. Scary stuff.
I wouldn't rule out structural failure just yet, it's plausible that something happened and the CFI assumed it was the student pulling on the stick when it wasn't especially in a moment of panic like that.
It would be very strange for a structural failure to take place at that stage of flight, or indeed at all
@@noshurviverse8388 Very strange indeed. Some people always want to blame the plane. They had flown an entire flight up the coast performing 360 turns and all. That plane was fine.
OMG thats Terrible
R.I.P. to the two Unfortunate Gentleman 🌹
Horrible this was my very first flight instructor
Can you identify if that was his voice?
@@wintercame yeah that was him
@@haterhating1 Oh dang man. Sorry what happened.
I had to do a 360° in my Skyhawk to let a Challenger land first, and I ran right into his wake. It was quite a bit more powerful than I would have thought, perhaps causing more than 30° of uncommanded bank; I don't recall any real pitch excursions, but I was pointing the nose down anyway (I love to "chop and drop" with the barn doors out.) Nowhere near loss of control, but certainly required action. I don't know if the KA would have caused the same effect.
As a student pilot, this is why you wait for the wake turbulence to dissolve. Which is approximately 2-3 minutes. I live in Lakeland, so we constantly have Prime Air in and out. And plus land beyond the aircrafts takeoff point.
I think you mean land BEFORE the other aircraft's takeoff point... The wake doesn't start until the other aircraft is airborne!
sounds like a CFI got killed by a panicked (or suicidal?) student. You can hear a second voice making 'oh' sounds, like maybe they were getting hit?? When it gets that bad, you need to take some immediate drastic action. People say cover the eyes, or something, and that might work, eventually, but a the edge of the hand smacking the Adams apple is highly effective at distracting someone from a behavior, as being temporarily unable to breath makes one forget about everything else. Remember, someone that scared is pumped full of adrenaline, and anything that is less life threatening (to them) than what they are focused on will not get noticed.
Very possibly suicidal, but it’s impossible to say for certain. Either way idk how quickly I would be able to react to a similar situation. I would hope that I could incapacitate the left-seater trying to kill us, but I can’t know for sure how I would react in that scenario.
@@deucemeister no he wasnt suicidal... I can confirm that as a close friend... I'm guessing it was panic or something else.
@@SeanMalarkey Thanks for putting that explanation to bed.
May they rest in peace.
Rest in peace to both the student and instructor who passed away. I feel with the audio the second theory is the most likely one.
I wonder if the student had the stick (???), and it was the instructor panicked and screaming, "Let go! Let go!" Because having it the other way around makes no sense.
We simply don't know what happened yet, and might never know for sure. It's even possible that one of them had some kind of seizure.
This is very much the equivalent of a motorcycle rider traveling at a good speed when he sees what he thinks is a car about to pull out in front of him, so he panics and prematurely grabs too much front brake, he loses control of the bike and crashes. Here, I think the student may have overestimated whatever he thought was a danger.
Highly unlikely wake turbulence, which tends to cause a roll over. Maybe the student panicked over the ground rush ...
I find it unbelievable that cars can be outfitted with a system to disable the steering and brakes of a student driver, but for a much more high risk situation like flying, there isn't more thought put into something like that. I suppose nobody thinks it's their problem. Maybe someone should though?
I think it’s because proportionally more people who don’t want to drive or would be bad at it, still take driving lessons because they HAVE to drive to get to work etc. It’s not the same with flying. The risk that you would have a panicky student is lower.
@@Sashazur Yes I can understand that that is the reasoning behind why things are the way they are, and so it's just all the more upsetting to see that the reasoning has entirely to do with minimizing cost saving rather than wanting to maximize human safety. Cost saving at the risk of human life is inherently an inhumane choice incompatible with living in a human society in my opinion. Within reason.
This is starting to happen a lot…
I have flown many SLSAs. It is a DISASTER to attempt to take a runway where a much heavier plane, like the King Air or worse, a commercial jet or military aircraft is taking off, or just landing. SLSA are like feathers, they land without power and glide to the runway. The stick is also VERY touchy and they will float. Many seasoned pilots use to heavier planes and more pressure on a yoke or stick have trouble transition and flying an SLSA.
This is an unimaginable tragedy. Recently I viewed a FlightChops podcast, "Fatal Loss of Control plane crash? Every 4 days! Airliner differences + GA’s 4 big Failures," where Dan Gryder, having lost a number of friends to stall-spins, was relentlessly drilling maintaining DMMS until it became reflexive not to pull-back on the stick. Accordingly, it seems like essential training for PPL students prior to giving them control at low altitudes because you might not get it back.
Not that it detracts from Dan’s point, but he was also arrested for ignoring law enforcement who were trying to cite him. He started up his DC-3, threatened a police officer, and taxied to the runway. Delta fired him for that, hence the esteemed title of “former airline pilot.” Not exactly the most safety-conscience of actions. He also crashed a 150 last year because he planned a low approach with the flaps fully extended and then they apparently wouldn’t retract. He did maintain aircraft control into the ground though, so he’s got that going for him 😅
Dan Gryder is a joke
@@renaissanceman4054 The man may be, but the message is sound.
I wonder if perhaps the student was subjected to some manoeuvres that frightened him/her on this familiarization flight, and then the student finally went full-panic on landing approach? A CFI should closely monitor a new student and watch for signs of withdrawal into fear, such as a chatty student suddenly becoming quiet and unresponsive. Watch their hands, maybe they are looking around for an escape, refusing to look forward at the sky. Maybe ask the student directly about his/her state of mind.....maybe a go-around might give the student a moment to gather wits. This was a very sad story.
You never know about your students; unlikely, but still open to consideration is possibility that the student may have committed a planned suicide (and murder).
I can think of a third option that I really don't like to think about
of course cause we all have this 3rd option come to mind too
That crossed my mind too.
Yeah, the airport where I (later) learned to fly may have had one of those back in the late 90s. That was the relatively common speculation, as the circumstances of the crash made no sense and the NTSB couldn't find a cause.
Suicide? Sorry I feel like I'm being dense.
@@paulloveless9180 murder-suicide yes. If it was the student’s 2nd orientation flight, he may have already learned that pitching up too high on final would stall an aircraft and crash. He made up his mind that he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, taking the instructor with him.
Who was the cfi anyone know him? Being a pilot i would never let a student land on a first flight experience RIP.
On Kathryn's Report there are witnesses who reported a loud bang before the sudden pitch up. Maybe the engine blew, instructor flying naturally pushed nose lower, and the combination of the loud sound and dropping the nose so low to the ground made the student panic. He then grabbed back on the stick and froze.
Yes, I don't think we can rule out (or even minimize the possibility) there was some kind of malfunction. Malfunctions don't mean guaranteed death or even crash if you are able to handle it. If you have a sudden loss of power, for instance, and you're just about to land, you can obviously glide that to a safe landing if you're a trained pilot. Same goes for any other kind of malfunction. The CFI could have very well said "let go" to perform his expertise and land a damaged aircraft safely, which a student with only a few hours if that can't be expected to do.
Certainly something must have spooked and panicked the student. Assuming this is a student on his first flight, that could be anything from unexpected windshear to a bird suddenly coming in too close, or even just some kind of anxiety at coming closer and closer to the ground at a low pitch attitude and letting instincts overrule and pitching it up abruptly. I don't know what the student's history is like or what circumstances brought them to a flying school that day if it was their first or second day. Discovery flight students are often not serious about flying but just want to try something out, possibly even having gotten a gift certificate or something for their birthday.
I don't know anything about the affected aircraft or its characteristics, whether it's easy to stall or spin. But as someone who's started a PPL journey a year ago, I can say the first few lessons you tend to overcorrect hard on what should be light corrections, you're going to have to listen to your CFI when he says you have to keep pointing the nose down until several feet off the ground, and above all, let the CFI perform the first couple of landings and observe the phases.
You can hear a bang in the audio why is screaming I was wondering what that was.
@@aviation_nut Very well said 👌
While everyone is talking about the "Let Go", we also have to mention the voices the student was making during this incident... You can hear the student making noises on the background, something like "panicking" or "fighting something"...
That's why it's called "discovery flight, or First flight", the students themselves doesn't know their reaction or behaviors until the experience a real flight.
This airplane have a "Control Stick between the legs like the helicopter", if the student panicked and locked on the "control stick" then it will not be easy to overcome.
Unfortunately, now we know what's the reaction of this student...
This CFI was working to overcome both the student's panic strength and the airplane itself... Too much to work on in this low altitude and landing configuration.
Rest in peace, both of them...
Pilot.
Those grunts don't sound right.
They sound too guttural to be just a fearful reaction.
@@josephhaas7413 My thoughts exactly. I wished the report had the ages of the two.
For the benefit of us non-pilots who aren't familiar w/ the aircraft in question, do I gather that it is not dual control, that there is only one stick between the seats? So left seat pilot uses right hand and right seat uses left? If so, then a right handed student in the right seat just may not have enough precision in his left hand to make small inputs. Overdoes it and then panics.
It’s dual control. It has two seats and each person has a stick between their legs.
Do what you have to do to regain control. An elbow to the nose is not out of the question.
I learned in a Sport with a yoke. Great plane for training....I just can't imagine using a stick to instruct....for THIS obvious reason!
I think we should consider the possibility that the "new student" had nefarious intentions. Could this be a murder/suicide? Either way, I've heard that if you cover somebody's eyes their natural instinct is to move their hands, which might cause them to let go. I don't have any data to prove that but it's a thought to consider.
I suggest this theory as the events leading up to the accident. The student pilot on his second orientation flight was tasked with landing the airplane, which is not uncommon (though the CFI was obviously ghosting the controls). In the process of that landing, the CFI noticed that the student was pulling too far back too early and the airplane was about to stall. The CFI instinctively pushed forward to prevent that.
Now terrified that the instructor was pushing the controls down to (what the student perceived to be) a crash landing, the student held firm on the yoke. He was scared and did not want the plane to touch the ground, and while screaming at the CFI to “let go”, the plane crashed after a spin.
If they were doing landing instruction they would be doing touch and goes, not full stop like here.
@@kewkabe it’s an intro flight, could just be he asked the student to land it at the end. I remember doing that on mine.
This is fucked up but I was friends with the student and it sounds like his voice yelling let go. Could have been a higher pitched panic of the instructor but I think it was my friend and your explanation could explain why.
Could have been intentional by the student as well. It happened with German Wings and China Airways.
@@sallegaert1 was your friend passionate about learning to fly? Trying to ascertain why someone taking an introductory flight lesson would have such a reaction to a normal landing.
One thing I noticed that no one else has pointed out is the grunting that you can hear on the recording. Sounds like someone mimicking a gorilla and I assume it was the student making the noise. I wonder is this an indication of a panic attack of some sort. Maybe the NTSB can get a behavioral expert to analyze the recording and come to some kind of conclusion about mental state.
One more thing, I really doubt that telling a student you will 'knock them out' if they freeze on the controls, will help anything. Panic is panic. Adding to anxiety by making a student worry about making a mistake (the student doesn't know what YOU consider, 'freezing'), and getting smashed in the face, isn't what we need to bring new people into a sport that is already bleeding to death due to spiraling costs and constant fear-mongering by media and social sites. Before we teach a new student how to control an airplane, we should first take them through a few gentle practice manoeuvers, and see that they are comfortable with them. Then, teach them to use the controls. Instead of threatening them, tell them 'if you don't feel right or stop 'having fun', tell me and I will land immediately"
Haunting
Not wake turbulence unless it is a KA 350 heavy...
Pretty certain it was number 2. An overreaction from the student pilot.
Thank you - Looks similar to the American Airlines flight 587 crash, where the plane encountered turbulence from a departing B747 and the pilot aggressively used rudder instead of having the autopilot manage it, with the rudder fin detaching ultimately.
Just a thought, don't shoot me: everyone seems to think it's "let go" of controls/yoke.
I know how gruesome it sounds, but by way of future caution...
what it if was "let go" of my arms?
Side note: many reports say 15 year old student. Better reports say a 28 year old male, possibly on first, not second ever flight.
And FI was a young male, maybe in 20s also.
:(
Had a similar thought… “letting go” of what…?
Unusual attitude = fear = grabbing on to someone as reflex?
@@withgrowinginsanity198 Yes, that's precisely what I'm advancing. That seems fully as likely as strong-arming the yoke.
The guy was in his 20s.
From the grunts on the audio it sounded like a full grown man. I'm curious though why would he panic so late in the flight. Makes me wonder what rest of the flight was like with them being out so long and doing 360 turns. Could this have been a sudden medical event?