Many, many years ago when I was just learning to play I thought I would bless the neighborhood with a solo I had just learned {Mississippi Queen}. So I dimed my Twin Reverb and proceeded to play. After awhile, I got visitors {cops}. I knew who called on me. When I said something to him about it several days later he said: "I'll make you a deal. Get better and I won't call the cops." The truth hurts sometimes, but I did get better, and he never called on me once I did.
Back in the 70's I tried out a 150W head in my Marshall 8x10 cab (meant for a 50W head - 4x(8w+8w)-64W). I cranked the amp up and the band started playing Foxy Lady. It was sounding great, perfect feedback, truly glorious, until in the middle of the solo I looked back and saw smoke coming out of the speaker grill. Cooked several speakers that moment. Yes it was already warm, but I'd say it took about 2 minutes to meltdown after being cranked. Speaker tech once told me that the main difference between Marshall's voice coils was the temperature at which the glue holding it together began to soften and actually distort the voice coil itself, as opposed to the gauge of the wire. BTW - I've still got that cab, never found anything that sounded better.
One thing to note: By the time he got to the full power/full volume portion, the voice coil on that speaker was already pretty hot from being driven at over-capacity for several minutes.
A radically UNDERPOWERED amp may actually blow an over powered Speaker really quickly. We discovered this years ago when we wanted to see what a Princeton Reverb sounded like full on without speaker distortion. We ran it into a "custom" bass cabinet with an EV 15 rated at 400w. BOOM...FIZZZ...silence. Turns out that a combination of high frequencies from the clipped signal and the amp losing ability to control N/S direction of the voice coil is the culprit. This is common knowledge to engineers but not to teenagers trying to sound like Page or Ralphs on a Princeton. Sound was ok until we pushed the little Princeton to 11. Great experiment here! Cheers!
Wow I’m actually impressed with the tone coming from just one speaker. The green back held up pretty well. I’m sold. Props to the Marshall powerbrakes for retaining that cranked Marshall tone at lower volumes.
Haha I have a 50w Marshall MG solid state. It gets cranked as soon as the wife is out the door. The other day she got home earlier than expected and said she could here it at the bottom of our street. More soundproofing needed lol
20 minutes. The last time it was a younger cop and he asked me "ok black sabbath...where's the concert" I said "right here" while smiling of course. He laughed and said "some asshole wants you to turn it down and I'm not the asshole. I play too." Then we started talking about gear for about 10 minutes. He left and I turn it down some.
@@nicholasmanupella3475 great history, I think its a great idea to isolate a room for guitar. I remember the smell of tubes, and amps, the dark scenario, I had two rooms, like that. Now, I have my owmn house and play loud, dont mind hrhehe, but I miss my old rooms in parents house, In future will bring it back again :)
I foolishly was afraid the head would see an open circuit and go kaboom when the speaker took a poop 💩. Johan on the job prevented that disaster. You always have interesting things to explore regarding high power Marshall amps.
Since the guitar doesn't produce an constant signal, like a sinewave, it's very difficult to now how much power is really going into the speaker, and i believe that the mean power wasted by the speaker in your 3 min playing was, at best, slightly above the "25 W times the factor of safety" of the speaker. A real endurance test should be pluging an signal generator at the input of the amp sending a sinewave signal, but Johan sure sounds much better than that :-) Maybe holding a feedback can warm the coil a little bit faster!
That applies to a clean or crunchy playing Musician, but Johann plays a very overdriven amp, that turns guitar signal in to a quite continuous one, closer to an oscillator. Also the resultant heavily clipped squarewave is HARD on poor speakers.
cool experiment, I good to know those 25 watt Greenback Reissues are tough and still sounded great! I can remember back in the 70s some of the rehearsal studios amps had scorch marks on the grilles from when speakers burst into flames! Can't even imagine how loud they were playing. Great demo as usual! Thanks Johan, hope the speaker survived!
If a speaker is actually bursting into flames chances are it's DC power leaking to the speaker from the amps output transformer or a serious design flaw because no charge of volume will actually make the speaker catch fire as the voltages going trough it are low (hi wattage/low voltage). It could pop the voicecoil or the speaker can tear out but the amp itself would catch fire way sooner than the speaker would.
@@marksguitars5617 Let me guess..... older Silverface amps? Bandmasters and such? It's mostly older amps where a capacitor, filterchoke or transformer fails and starts to leak direct current onto the speaker output. That's why every tube amp older than needs a refresh every now and then. Direct and alternating current can exist in the same wire without affecting each other but it does affect the working of the voice coil. The way it works normally is the alternating current moves the voice coil when it alternates between - and +..... if DC is also in the same wire it will want to "stop" the voice coil because it doesn't not alternate acting like a brake and work against the signal. That's about the only situation in which a speaker can catch fire, normally the speaker will just fail without catching fire.
Exactly. A fully cranked amp without any load (for example speaker coil burnt and broken) is very bad thing to OT and can cause output tube failure or tube socket arcing as well. Well, I suppose that Johan has plenty of Marshall OTs and NOS Mullard EL34 tubes to burn. 😀
@@gibs8412 I don't know what tubes those original Marshall "factory" tubes were. AFAIK NOS Mullards are the most sought after EL34 tubes nowadays, among the products of some other highly appreciated companies which manufactured EL34s, for example Telefunken and Siemens. I have several Mullard, Siemens and Telefunken made NOS EL34 tubes in my tube collection and they IMO are of superior quality in comparison with EL34s made nowadays.
@@jutukka hmm, i have a Marshall el34 100/100 dual monoblock i use with the factory tubes in still, its about 16 years old, was gonna get some new ones, it takes 8 of them, i only ever turn it on when on stage, to preserve them. i am gonna look into those, thanks
Woooo! Hell yeah! The suspense was killing me in this one! Only Johan would intentionally try to destroy gear for the enjoyment of a world of curious musicians. Beautiful experiment. Loved it. Actually sounded really good the entire time. With the exception of some of the pushed feedback. But tone wise it stayed pretty consistent. Brilliant experiment. Loved it bro!
It sounded great from the beginning, but every little increase sounded better until you reached full volume, at which point it was the best sounds I could ever have imagined. It was beautiful, almost like chords I've never heard. I figured it would be the E that blew it, but you stopped just in time. Man, the feedback and sustain were what I dream of! Thank you for all the cool stuff you do.
I was told, but to hear the speaker really opens up at -3db was eye opening. This explains too, while all the great act in those days had techs replacing speakers and repairing amps all day.
That's a great test and video! I use to play with a plexi 100w clone through a 2x12 greenback cabinet, and always wondered if and when it will break. So, basing on your video, I know that it will last for a while, since I never play at a volume greater than 40%. Anyway, the distortion coming from the speaker is awesome!
Johan, answering the quesstions you always asked but could never afford to clear up for yourself. :) Next: how long do 2x alnico blue 15w speakers last in a SF UL 135w twin reverb.
Hey Johan how you doing? I listened to this thru my phone so I probably did not get a good representation of the overall sound which was pretty good! I thought I heard some speaker distortion towards the end but correct me if I am wrong.
I personally don' t think it' s worth blowing a speaker to get that tone, it' s glorious but you got great tones since the beginning of the video With the Power brake on , so...we can save a Greenback!😂 cheers Johan!🤟🏼
@@JohanSegeborn Question, does the Power Brake isolate the amplifier's output section sufficiently to protect the amplifier from damage as the speaker's voice coil heats up and starts the experience a transition to a short/open condition? Everyone seems concerned about the speaker's well being, however the amplifier could suffer damage from the changed speaker impedance as it proceeds to melt down. Also, some dry ice near the speaker's magnet, top/bottom plates, core and basket could mitigate much of the damage, or at the very least extend/delay the inevitable.
Cranked amp sounds best, but attenuators allow you to run them without damage to the speakers or your hearing. Best tone I ever got was a Bare Knuckle Warpig loaded LTD JH-200 through a Jet City JCA20H into a Jet City 2x12 fully dimed. With an attenuator it was glorious and I didn't have my neighbors calling the cops.
Great experiment Johan! would it be wise to use my JCM2000 DSL50W watt into a 1x12" 25W Greenback cab without attenuation? or what about a 2x12" 25W greenback?
Absoloutley. My 15watt amp cranked full had the neighbour who was still 200 metres away walk into my driveway where I was playing. In thinking oh oh. Proceeds to tell me I love zeppelin and Clapton and just wanted to come listen a little closer. Haha
This makes sense to me. I know the 4x12 was initially invented because they kept blowing 2x12 cabs but speakers today are much more robust. Let’s be honest, many things ARE better nowadays. Why wouldn’t they be? We have 60 years of manufacturing evolution on our side. The main things that *aren’t* better today are guitars (old growth wood is so much more stable) and tubes. As far as tubes go, we’ll never be able to build em like old tubes since that technology is no longer relevant and there’s no longer any large scale competition amongst manufacturers to put out the highest quality product.
Yes, speaker are more robust. We have guitar speakers that are rated for as much as 200W. Put four of those into a box and you can crank 800W into it. (With some rack-mounted sound-reinforcement solid-state amp).
If you can smell that speaker coil heating up, it's probably already fucked. But generally anything above 35W for a long period will stuff that speaker as the coil will heat up gradually. The biggest thing with speakers is they don't particularly like DC, so even a smaller powered amp distorting into will be worse than having a cleaner, higher powered amp into the same speaker. You're still a nutter Johan, but that's why we love the channel!
I love those speakers. The Chinese ones are the best and starting to be hard to find. I just put one in my vintage Marshall Studio 15, to replace the Vintage 30 they put in them. HUGE improvement, GOD TONE.
Always appreciate your videos, you're a real 70s rock scientist! Now do the reverse! A 1watt amp into a 4x15 Celestion Fullback, haha, cheers, stay as you are
@@JohanSegeborn I'm really grateful to you. I just love your channel, I discovered so much thanks to you, I love it. I just havr to watch your videos any time I'm depressed and then I smile. So thank you!
many years ago, when I bought a Marshall 3-channel anniversary (black toiex, not the blue), they were shipped to the U.S. without a speaker. Upon arrival, they were loaded, not with the Celestion they were designed to have, but with an EV12L. A perfectly wonderful speaker, to be sure. But not at all a great match for Marshall work. I knew that I would never be maxing out the amp - nor even close to that. So in went a greenback. I'm sure that even though I wasn't topping out the amp, I was driving it harder than a 25W speaker should have to endure on its own. It held up well, and even the new owner kept that setup for years after. Not many people really need 100W RMS +. But this was a fun "what if" to check out.
To my ears 111 db was the sweet spot. It rolls of the harshness and smooths the tone. Beyond that I could start to hear artifacts and lose definition from the speaker. At lower volumes the tone is too defined and square.
Awesome vid! Any chance you could take the fender super champ x2 combo or head, and run the clean channel cranked through a 112 or 110 vs a good 412. Just curious as to what it would sound like.
I wasn't able to perform this 'exact' experiment?... But I was so inspired that I just grabbed a balloon and just kept blowing air into it until it popped... Mmmmmm... 🤔.... Wasn't quite the same results?? But it was all I had. ✊🏻😂 I think you might have Joe Walsh re-thinking his set up- 👏🏻
Hi Johan! Even when played with a 100W tube amplifier on a 25W speaker, it does not break down. The tube amplifier overdrive, does not kill the speaker, amplified to supply only audio frequency AC voltage. Of course, there will be a limit somewhere, but a 100W tube amplifier is not enough. A 100W amplifier supplies out about 30V of R.M.S AC voltage. Speaker load power from the formula, 30² / R. Output voltage 30X30 = 900/8 = 112.5W if the speaker is 16 OHM load power is 900/16 = 56W. A 100W tube amplifier can be loaded with 4 ohms, 30X30 = 900/4 = 225W, this is often done with a 2- to 8-ohm speaker cabinet.
Your math is wrong. This would be true in a solid state amp or a tube amp if you used the same secondary tap of the output transformer (sort of). If the amp puts out 30 volts RMS at the 8 ohm tap into an 8 ohm speaker, then the amp would put out 30 X 1.4 = 42 volts at the 16 ohm OT tap with a 16 ohm speaker; and likewise using 30 ÷ 1.4 = 21.4 volts at the 4 ohm OT tap.
Sounded like rock n roll to me. No smoke? It’s all good! I done this a lot back in my younger days, played through all kinds of junk stereo equipment and a few good amps, melted all kinds of stuff. One of my favorite tones was playing through a Sound Design quad home stereo into the phono inputs and out of that into a 1960’s DanElectro tube combo cabinet(yes, speaker outputs into guitar input!), output to the 15in speaker in the cabinet AND the four stereo speakers stacked up on each side (three way with 12in drivers) It lasted like a dozen shows for a high school kid (one 45min set each show maybe) and it was loud. It finally died when we played all afternoon in the refreshment tent at the local county fair (1978). I had to pull all the tones waaaay back so it didn’t break people’s teeth, it was really shrill on mid tones. It buzzed pretty loud and I couldn’t stand anywhere near the front of it because of feedback. It was the stereo that died, that DanO got tortured for a couple more years before the transformer finally quit. I knew absolutely nothing about volt, ohms, amps or impedance back then. The band I was in wanted to Molly Hatchet...we weren’t. Lol Add: another good set up from those days used a very old (back then) reel to reel tape machine that had a tube power amp. A friend who knew a little about amps n stuff hooked up a speed controller for a table saw or some kind of wood working equipment and I ran the “amp” wide open and the speed control three quarters from slow to fast. It wasn’t as loud or impressive to look at as the other set-up but it sounded pretty good. If ya can’t tell, my folks didn’t have much money and I was young and determined to play loud and distorted. I used this in a band that wanted to be AC/DC (the early stuff) we were much better than the Molly Hatchet cover band, mostly because the songs were easier to play. 😉
I actually prefer the 96db tonal range the most. After that, it's seems that every two clicks sounded excellent with the in-betweens darker sounding. And of course there's the feedback. I wonder if there's a mathematic relationship between the wattage and the output that correlates, like even/odd harmonics?
Dear Johan, I manufacture my own Guitar speakers, over 14.000 of them in over 50 years, and have burnt hundreds of them in testing, both mine and Celestion - Jensen - Eminence - etc. for comparison. I much suspect you used a "modern" or "reissue" Greenback here, which are not _exact_ copies of the early ones, by any means. Although they sound quite close. I much suspect they use far stronger materials, such as light but high temperature adhesives, high temperature Epoxy enamel wire, and Nomex "paper", all of which increase power handling and endurance. An original paper former (think brown paper bag quality Kraft paper) + "Synthetic" enamel coated wire + nitrocellulose adhesive (think model airplane adhesive) would NOT have stood that much, by any means. I was suffering watching while you increased power step by step, knowing by experience what happens. Already at - 3 dB (nominal 50W) you "should" have started smelling funny vapours (not still "burning" but enamel and adhesives overheating and releasing solvents, same thing as an overheated electric motor smell) and at full power (100W) it should have started smelling at about 30-40 seconds, beyond 1 minute speaker should have started sounding "dull" because softened adhesive becomes like putty (instead of original rigidity) and couples poorly wire vibration to former and cone. And some 30 seconds later it makes gurgling sounds and dies. Sometimes you hear a strong buzzing, wires get loose (remember adhesive is becoming molten or burnt), crack and die. That it did NOT happen makes me suspect modern construction as I said above. Why do I mention it? .... because somebody may have an irreplaceable late 60´s *cellulose paper* coil Greenback and feel "allowed" to abuse it, seeing that yours stood a lot, well above specs. Well, not applicable to the real old ones. If I had been there, I could have told you *which* adhesive and former material were present, overheated Nitro/Epoxy/Cyanoacrilate smell very different from each other, same with Cellulose (Kraft) Paper and Nomex, which has a plastic base, think woven Nylon but standing much higher temperature without melting. In fact, way before melting, it makes bubbles or blisters, then speaker scratches big time. Thanks for your videos and specially the strong "feet on the ground" practical approach.
Cool tips and story! Maybe you can answer/ debunk some things i've heard over the years. About V30s, specifically the late 90s "UK MESA" ones: What wattage are they actually rated for? I've heard 60/65/70w... I've been told "they sound like a 30w old classic, but can handle the power!" Is this true? Do they sound better than 'ordinary' v30s? Do they sound better/ last longer than any other Celestions one might be considering? Out of curiosity, what are your favourite speakers? Which stood out over the years for whatever reason?
I've seen and heard a few guitar players in the early 1970's blow speakers in their 4 x 12 Marshall cabinets using the 100 Watt heads on stage. The speakers were 25 Watts and the amps weren't even cranked yet. Sometimes it's due to hitting the high notes and sustaining them for a while until the speakers blows.
I have experimented with lots of small speakers. Didn’t really pay any attention to impedance. But I got some of the most satisfying sounds out of those dying speakers. I think probably they would be great for recording. I would play them until they literally smoked. You can get them out of whatever… Automobiles televisions radios whatever. I wouldn’t use an expensive amplifier doing it, it might backfire on you. But I got really satisfying sounds with my PV ultra 120.
I modified my first small harley benton 10w combo,originally it was screaming for help at 30% volume, farting at low tones. I put there home hifi speaker, the same 16,5cm but with 100w power handling and it plays very well for this size. Highly recommend doing it. 35 euro used combo and 8 euro speaker, plays like 100 euro gear and super compact :)
Hi Johan & greetings from Australia. I must say I've always wanted to try this but never had the "spare" equipment to try. Which Ohms Outlet did you use to avoid blowing up the amp?
nice test amazing sound .a bit dangerous but your the king.i have tried this before but low volume would dare try it that loud.in the begining i thought you doing this to an original greenback i was like oh noooooo johan .but its a great sound these speakers can takthe punishment i guess if you wire 2 speakers might be less dangerous and maybe can go for a bit longer than 3 minutes. great video big respect to you.
at the moment im using a 20 watts marshall thru 1 celestion greenback from the 70s.for home use and 2 ×12 celestion greenback when i want to go crazy still pushing alot of air thru 1 speaker .its a the 25 watts greenback i guess its safe still to run it from 20 watts marshall ??
THAT’S IT! I’m going to do this experiment with one of my 4 Celestion G12M-25’s from February 1973 (Pulsonic cones) into my ‘82 Hiwatt DR-103. I’m convinced! 😁 I’m just kidding! Those speakers came out of my late ‘70 Marshall Basketweave 1960/1982 4x12 angled cabinet & they’re stored away for safe keeping. I have the Celestion G12H Heritage Speakers (55 hz) in that cab.
A few years ago, I emailed "Dr. Decibel" at Celestion asking if it was safe to use a single 4x12 can loaded with Greenbacks with a Super Lead played quietly at about 112db for long periods of time. The answer was, "probably" saying that Greenbacks are conservatively rated at 25w. That answer was qualified though by also saying that you'd have to take variables into account such as how much distortion is used since a speaker can handle clean power better than distortion.
I did this once with an alnico blue, 10 seconds later it was an alnico blew
Thank you for this. I needed it 😂
lmao good one haha
Alnico Blue are built te old way.
@@fahey5719 stone ground paper pulp?
😂
Many, many years ago when I was just learning to play I thought I would bless the neighborhood with a solo I had just learned {Mississippi Queen}. So I dimed my Twin Reverb and proceeded to play. After awhile, I got visitors {cops}. I knew who called on me. When I said something to him about it several days later he said: "I'll make you a deal. Get better and I won't call the cops." The truth hurts sometimes, but I did get better, and he never called on me once I did.
That's what I tell people on my drums. If you are just banging it won't take long but if you are doing something nobody will call.
hahaha that's a great story
A Greenback WAS harmed in the making of this video, for the sake of science and rock & roll!
Great comment!!
Isn't this something you really should learn in rock and roll high school?
Not harmed enough!🤘🤘🤘🤘
I love Johan’s rhythm playing. He gets so into the groove.
Thanks, glad to hear it!
Johan goes where most guitarists fear to tread...
Hahaha!
I was really impressed with the attenuated sound! It always helps to have that room mic for extra depth. Great tones Johan!
Thanks Andy, glad to hear that!
legends colliding
Back in the 70's I tried out a 150W head in my Marshall 8x10 cab (meant for a 50W head - 4x(8w+8w)-64W). I cranked the amp up and the band started playing Foxy Lady. It was sounding great, perfect feedback, truly glorious, until in the middle of the solo I looked back and saw smoke coming out of the speaker grill. Cooked several speakers that moment. Yes it was already warm, but I'd say it took about 2 minutes to meltdown after being cranked.
Speaker tech once told me that the main difference between Marshall's voice coils was the temperature at which the glue holding it together began to soften and actually distort the voice coil itself, as opposed to the gauge of the wire.
BTW - I've still got that cab, never found anything that sounded better.
One thing to note: By the time he got to the full power/full volume portion, the voice coil on that speaker was already pretty hot from being driven at over-capacity for several minutes.
I'd be more worried about the output section and transformer of my amplifier.
As always, Johan's content is fantastic.
A radically UNDERPOWERED amp may actually blow an over powered Speaker really quickly.
We discovered this years ago when we wanted to see what a Princeton Reverb sounded like full on without speaker distortion.
We ran it into a "custom" bass cabinet with an EV 15 rated at 400w.
BOOM...FIZZZ...silence.
Turns out that a combination of high frequencies from the clipped signal and the amp losing ability to control N/S direction of the voice coil is the culprit.
This is common knowledge to engineers but not to teenagers trying to sound like Page or Ralphs on a Princeton.
Sound was ok until we pushed the little Princeton to 11.
Great experiment here!
Cheers!
Hahaha, thanks for the heads up. I would have fallen into that trap too. Cheers!
Wow I’m actually impressed with the tone coming from just one speaker. The green back held up pretty well. I’m sold. Props to the Marshall powerbrakes for retaining that cranked Marshall tone at lower volumes.
Now do "How long can you play a Cranked 100W Marshall until the cops come?"
:-)
Haha I have a 50w Marshall MG solid state. It gets cranked as soon as the wife is out the door. The other day she got home earlier than expected and said she could here it at the bottom of our street. More soundproofing needed lol
Fire department
20 minutes. The last time it was a younger cop and he asked me "ok black sabbath...where's the concert" I said "right here" while smiling of course. He laughed and said "some asshole wants you to turn it down and I'm not the asshole. I play too." Then we started talking about gear for about 10 minutes. He left and I turn it down some.
@@nicholasmanupella3475 great history, I think its a great idea to isolate a room for guitar. I remember the smell of tubes, and amps, the dark scenario, I had two rooms, like that. Now, I have my owmn house and play loud, dont mind hrhehe, but I miss my old rooms in parents house, In future will bring it back again :)
I was wondering if Johan was going to get blasted across the room like in "back to the future" BOOM! rock n roll!
I liked the tone at all of the attenuation levels! Cool video thanks!!!
Dude right? Those tones were absolutely gorgeous. Killer stuff all around!
Thanks Michael, glad you like it!
Thanks Chris, great to hear it!
This chanel is like a holy grail of all guitar chanels
Its definitely broken in now 😆
Lol
Haha! Is it broken or broke in?
No just heat-treated.
I foolishly was afraid the head would see an open circuit and go kaboom when the speaker took a poop 💩. Johan on the job prevented that disaster. You always have interesting things to explore regarding high power Marshall amps.
Thanks Johan for doing what we all wanted to try but didn't dare! :-)
Thanks Ed! ;-)
Since the guitar doesn't produce an constant signal, like a sinewave, it's very difficult to now how much power is really going into the speaker, and i believe that the mean power wasted by the speaker in your 3 min playing was, at best, slightly above the "25 W times the factor of safety" of the speaker. A real endurance test should be pluging an signal generator at the input of the amp sending a sinewave signal, but Johan sure sounds much better than that :-)
Maybe holding a feedback can warm the coil a little bit faster!
That applies to a clean or crunchy playing Musician, but Johann plays a very overdriven amp, that turns guitar signal in to a quite continuous one, closer to an oscillator. Also the resultant heavily clipped squarewave is HARD on poor speakers.
I genuinely enjoy the classic KISS influences you so proudly display.
Glad to hear it, I love Kiss!
cool experiment, I good to know those 25 watt Greenback Reissues are tough and still sounded great! I can remember back in the 70s some of the rehearsal studios amps had scorch marks on the grilles from when speakers burst into flames! Can't even imagine how loud they were playing. Great demo as usual! Thanks Johan, hope the speaker survived!
Thanks man! :-) The speaker is still alive and well! ;-)
Johan Segeborn Wow.
If a speaker is actually bursting into flames chances are it's DC power leaking to the speaker from the amps output transformer or a serious design flaw because no charge of volume will actually make the speaker catch fire as the voltages going trough it are low (hi wattage/low voltage).
It could pop the voicecoil or the speaker can tear out but the amp itself would catch fire way sooner than the speaker would.
@@tuonglukim8973 probably, I've seen it happen a few times, mostly on Fenders.
@@marksguitars5617 Let me guess..... older Silverface amps? Bandmasters and such?
It's mostly older amps where a capacitor, filterchoke or transformer fails and starts to leak direct current onto the speaker output.
That's why every tube amp older than needs a refresh every now and then.
Direct and alternating current can exist in the same wire without affecting each other but it does affect the working of the voice coil.
The way it works normally is the alternating current moves the voice coil when it alternates between - and +..... if DC is also in the same wire it will want to "stop" the voice coil because it doesn't not alternate acting like a brake and work against the signal.
That's about the only situation in which a speaker can catch fire, normally the speaker will just fail without catching fire.
Let's Go !!! Thanks johan for also doing a wrapup segment !!!!!! Great experiment sir !!!!🤙🤙🤟🤟
hopefully the smell was from the voicecoil burning rather than the output transformer.
Hahaha!!! 🤣
Exactly. A fully cranked amp without any load (for example speaker coil burnt and broken) is very bad thing to OT and can cause output tube failure or tube socket arcing as well.
Well, I suppose that Johan has plenty of Marshall OTs and NOS Mullard EL34 tubes to burn. 😀
@@jutukka NOS Mullard EL34.. are those the original tubes they used or current ones?
@@gibs8412 I don't know what tubes those original Marshall "factory" tubes were. AFAIK NOS Mullards are the most sought after EL34 tubes nowadays, among the products of some other highly appreciated companies which manufactured EL34s, for example Telefunken and Siemens.
I have several Mullard, Siemens and Telefunken made NOS EL34 tubes in my tube collection and they IMO are of superior quality in comparison with EL34s made nowadays.
@@jutukka hmm, i have a Marshall el34 100/100 dual monoblock i use with the factory tubes in still, its about 16 years old, was gonna get some new ones, it takes 8 of them, i only ever turn it on when on stage, to preserve them. i am gonna look into those, thanks
Woooo! Hell yeah! The suspense was killing me in this one! Only Johan would intentionally try to destroy gear for the enjoyment of a world of curious musicians. Beautiful experiment. Loved it. Actually sounded really good the entire time. With the exception of some of the pushed feedback. But tone wise it stayed pretty consistent. Brilliant experiment. Loved it bro!
Thanks Mike, glad to hear it!
Even through RUclips I could feel how close that speaker was to blowing. Very rock and roll. God bless and rock on brother! 😎🎸👍
Thanks brother! ;-) Cheers!
Never heard a re-issue greenback sound so good.
Yes it sounded great.
Man, I love your mad scientist videos!
Great to hear that, thanks!
That's some of the best tone I've heard out of those 25W Reissues.
Thanks, glad to hear that!
Man...incredible tone. Lot of sustain....Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Cliff!
It sounded great from the beginning, but every little increase sounded better until you reached full volume, at which point it was the best sounds I could ever have imagined. It was beautiful, almost like chords I've never heard. I figured it would be the E that blew it, but you stopped just in time. Man, the feedback and sustain were what I dream of! Thank you for all the cool stuff you do.
Get a sustainiac; then you can have that at any volume, even without plugging into an amp at all.
Sounds great love the feedback at full power. I remember reading article on Edward Van Halen saying the best tone was just before she smokes
Thank you for always having fun videos.
I want to see a review of Marshall 4001 Studio 15 .
Thanks, great to hear that! We’ll do the Studio 15 first chance, it’s a really interesting amp!
I was told, but to hear the speaker really opens up at -3db was eye opening. This explains too, while all the great act in those days had techs replacing speakers and repairing amps all day.
God, yes! Cant believe I've not searched for this kind of thing before. Good thinking Johan!
Glad to hear it, Cheers! ;-)
That's a great test and video! I use to play with a plexi 100w clone through a 2x12 greenback cabinet, and always wondered if and when it will break. So, basing on your video, I know that it will last for a while, since I never play at a volume greater than 40%. Anyway, the distortion coming from the speaker is awesome!
Thanks Andrea! At 40% volume a plexi is actually well over 100W
@@JohanSegeborn 😅 really?!?
@@JohanSegeborn THAT. Once an amp clips (and it WILL, it´s Rock and Roll) it has reached full power, not matter where the knob points at.
Thank you for this experimentation ! Have you tried the « GMR Little Plexi » ? It seems a nice pedal for the Marshall tones.
Hi, no not yet, but I’ll keep it in mind. Cheers
Johan, answering the quesstions you always asked but could never afford to clear up for yourself. :)
Next: how long do 2x alnico blue 15w speakers last in a SF UL 135w twin reverb.
Hey Johan how you doing? I listened to this thru my phone so I probably did not get a good representation of the overall sound which was pretty good! I thought I heard some speaker distortion towards the end but correct me if I am wrong.
A hell of a lot longer than you'd think. I did something similar with a 2×12 Vox cab and a MusicMan HD-130 back in high school.
That would be sweet! I have the 65 deluxe with wine tolex and wheat grill cloth and "blue". Crank, yank and thank the Gods of rock and roll!
@@stepvanjoe3469 cone cry!!!!!
Surprised how big the 112 sounds and totally agree that, even attenuated, it sounded pretty glorious!
I love 1x12's
I personally don' t think it' s worth blowing a speaker to get that tone, it' s glorious but you got great tones since the beginning of the video With the Power brake on , so...we can save a Greenback!😂 cheers Johan!🤟🏼
Thanks man, Cheers! ;-)
@@JohanSegeborn Question, does the Power Brake isolate the amplifier's output section sufficiently to protect the amplifier from damage as the speaker's voice coil heats up and starts the experience a transition to a short/open condition?
Everyone seems concerned about the speaker's well being, however the amplifier could suffer damage from the changed speaker impedance as it proceeds to melt down. Also, some dry ice near the speaker's magnet, top/bottom plates, core and basket could mitigate much of the damage, or at the very least extend/delay the inevitable.
@@hkguitar1984 Hmmm makes me think of a peltier element attached to the back of the speaker :)
Hmmmm....
Cranked amp sounds best, but attenuators allow you to run them without damage to the speakers or your hearing. Best tone I ever got was a Bare Knuckle Warpig loaded LTD JH-200 through a Jet City JCA20H into a Jet City 2x12 fully dimed. With an attenuator it was glorious and I didn't have my neighbors calling the cops.
Man, I really like your video and how serious you look, thanks !
It did sound really cool at the end when you floored it. Kind of like some of those early live Hendricks recordings.
Great experiment Johan! would it be wise to use my JCM2000 DSL50W watt into a 1x12" 25W Greenback cab without attenuation? or what about a 2x12" 25W greenback?
Thanks! You actually need a full 4x12 to be safe over time there.
That takes balls, well done!
Cheers Mike ;-)
Awesome video as always
Thanks Jim!
I'm genuinely curious how Johan manage the volume problems with his neighbors I have 15w and It's enough for everyone in the neighborhood to hear me
I ran a Vox Ac15 and a Custom Deluxe Reverb in a quiet street. Lol
He said in other videos that this is his rehearsal room.
If I’m wrong can Johan let me know?
I'd always assumed he lived somewhere in the woods of Sweden where you can play big amps all day and no one will complain.
The real trick is to just have cool neighbors that are into at least some of the same music as you. Difficult though.
Absoloutley. My 15watt amp cranked full had the neighbour who was still 200 metres away walk into my driveway where I was playing. In thinking oh oh. Proceeds to tell me I love zeppelin and Clapton and just wanted to come listen a little closer. Haha
A testament to the build quality of the Greenback!
Great riffing Johan!
Thanks Mike, glad to hear that!
This makes sense to me. I know the 4x12 was initially invented because they kept blowing 2x12 cabs but speakers today are much more robust. Let’s be honest, many things ARE better nowadays. Why wouldn’t they be? We have 60 years of manufacturing evolution on our side. The main things that *aren’t* better today are guitars (old growth wood is so much more stable) and tubes. As far as tubes go, we’ll never be able to build em like old tubes since that technology is no longer relevant and there’s no longer any large scale competition amongst manufacturers to put out the highest quality product.
is, Correct My friend
Yes, speaker are more robust. We have guitar speakers that are rated for as much as 200W. Put four of those into a box and you can crank 800W into it. (With some rack-mounted sound-reinforcement solid-state amp).
I've always wondered. Its sounded awesome. Thanks Johan.
Thanks Kevin!
If you can smell that speaker coil heating up, it's probably already fucked.
But generally anything above 35W for a long period will stuff that speaker as the coil will heat up gradually.
The biggest thing with speakers is they don't particularly like DC, so even a smaller powered amp distorting into will be worse than having a cleaner, higher powered amp into the same speaker.
You're still a nutter Johan, but that's why we love the channel!
Hahaha, Yeah I am. Thanks Peter, great feedback
I love those speakers. The Chinese ones are the best and starting to be hard to find. I just put one in my vintage Marshall Studio 15, to replace the Vintage 30 they put in them. HUGE improvement, GOD TONE.
You are probably the first man I've seen rocking a Gibson wearing crocks!
Always appreciate your videos, you're a real 70s rock scientist! Now do the reverse! A 1watt amp into a 4x15 Celestion Fullback, haha, cheers, stay as you are
Thanks Massie! :-)
@@JohanSegeborn I'm really grateful to you. I just love your channel, I discovered so much thanks to you, I love it. I just havr to watch your videos any time I'm depressed and then I smile. So thank you!
a cranked amp and pushed speaker is an amazing phenomenon. Great video.
Hi Johan! Wickedly Great Tones!
Well Done Brother! Thanks for All You Share! Be Well All!
Thanks brother!
many years ago, when I bought a Marshall 3-channel anniversary (black toiex, not the blue), they were shipped to the U.S. without a speaker. Upon arrival, they were loaded, not with the Celestion they were designed to have, but with an EV12L. A perfectly wonderful speaker, to be sure. But not at all a great match for Marshall work. I knew that I would never be maxing out the amp - nor even close to that. So in went a greenback.
I'm sure that even though I wasn't topping out the amp, I was driving it harder than a 25W speaker should have to endure on its own. It held up well, and even the new owner kept that setup for years after. Not many people really need 100W RMS +. But this was a fun "what if" to check out.
You do things I'd never have the guts to do! The quest for tone regardless!!.
It sounds like the magnet was overheating. You don't want a smoldering fire in a closed cab, that burns the house down 3 hours later...
Holy cow, the camera was literally shaking! How loud was that! Incredible man, your ears are made of stone! I would have gone def!
Went down the basement and tried it. with the aforementioned set up. Preamp full tilt and set on 1 to 1.5. A very nice sound !
That speaker was begging for mercy hahahha
GLORIOUS SOUND ahhhhhhh music to my ears
Thanks, glad to hear it!
So its probably OK to play something like an Orange Super Crush 100 through a Creamback 65 watter just so long as you are not diming it.
To my ears 111 db was the sweet spot. It rolls of the harshness and smooths the tone. Beyond that I could start to hear artifacts and lose definition from the speaker. At lower volumes the tone is too defined and square.
Thanks Jimmy!
That's where I noticed a sizeable change in the tone.
Those cranked plexi’s got that nice attack and crispness without being brittle.
Awesome vid! Any chance you could take the fender super champ x2 combo or head, and run the clean channel cranked through a 112 or 110 vs a good 412. Just curious as to what it would sound like.
Thanks! I’ll keep that comparison in mind!
Thanks man! I love the comparisons and all the sound experimenting you do. Its great!
Glad to hear that! Cheers
I wasn't able to perform this 'exact' experiment?... But I was so inspired that I just grabbed a balloon and just kept blowing air into it until it popped...
Mmmmmm... 🤔.... Wasn't quite the same results??
But it was all I had.
✊🏻😂
I think you might have Joe Walsh re-thinking his set up- 👏🏻
Hahaha! ;-) Cheers Jamie
With a 100w amp I’ve blown 2 altec lansing 12s, they were said to be 100w each. It took me only 10 seconds. I win.
Hi Johan!
Even when played with a 100W tube amplifier on a 25W speaker, it does not break down. The tube amplifier overdrive, does not kill the speaker, amplified to supply only audio frequency AC voltage. Of course, there will be a limit somewhere, but a 100W tube amplifier is not enough.
A 100W amplifier supplies out about 30V of R.M.S AC voltage. Speaker load power from the formula, 30² / R. Output voltage 30X30 = 900/8 = 112.5W if the speaker is 16 OHM load power is 900/16 = 56W. A 100W tube amplifier can be loaded with 4 ohms, 30X30 = 900/4 = 225W, this is often done with a 2- to 8-ohm speaker cabinet.
Your math is wrong. This would be true in a solid state amp or a tube amp if you used the same secondary tap of the output transformer (sort of).
If the amp puts out 30 volts RMS at the 8 ohm tap into an 8 ohm speaker, then the amp would put out 30 X 1.4 = 42 volts at the 16 ohm OT tap with a 16 ohm speaker; and likewise using 30 ÷ 1.4 = 21.4 volts at the 4 ohm OT tap.
Huh.....???
@@NoOne-sn2si Good brother! We're talking about different things, you rectification, I'm talking about the voltage coming to the speakers.
stellar guitar playing...nice demo. you gotta love that greenback...
Love your riffs 🤟🤟 great sound!
Thanks, glad to hear that!
I thought the sweet spot was when you had the power brake set to -9dB. The sustain on that last chord at -9 was glorious.
Thanks Rob!
The sound is amazing.
Thanks Goobie!
I love this channel so much.
I was expecting fire and smoke... Nice riffing as usual and a great sound even with a lot of attenuation. Cheers!
Thanks man, Cheers!
Sounded like rock n roll to me. No smoke? It’s all good! I done this a lot back in my younger days, played through all kinds of junk stereo equipment and a few good amps, melted all kinds of stuff. One of my favorite tones was playing through a Sound Design quad home stereo into the phono inputs and out of that into a 1960’s DanElectro tube combo cabinet(yes, speaker outputs into guitar input!), output to the 15in speaker in the cabinet AND the four stereo speakers stacked up on each side (three way with 12in drivers) It lasted like a dozen shows for a high school kid (one 45min set each show maybe) and it was loud. It finally died when we played all afternoon in the refreshment tent at the local county fair (1978). I had to pull all the tones waaaay back so it didn’t break people’s teeth, it was really shrill on mid tones. It buzzed pretty loud and I couldn’t stand anywhere near the front of it because of feedback. It was the stereo that died, that DanO got tortured for a couple more years before the transformer finally quit. I knew absolutely nothing about volt, ohms, amps or impedance back then. The band I was in wanted to Molly Hatchet...we weren’t. Lol
Add: another good set up from those days used a very old (back then) reel to reel tape machine that had a tube power amp. A friend who knew a little about amps n stuff hooked up a speed controller for a table saw or some kind of wood working equipment and I ran the “amp” wide open and the speed control three quarters from slow to fast. It wasn’t as loud or impressive to look at as the other set-up but it sounded pretty good. If ya can’t tell, my folks didn’t have much money and I was young and determined to play loud and distorted. I used this in a band that wanted to be AC/DC (the early stuff) we were much better than the Molly Hatchet cover band, mostly because the songs were easier to play. 😉
It doesn`t get any better.......play loud guitar and blow things up !!!
The tones were great.
Hi Johan. Thanks for the great videos. I was wondering, what ear protection do you use when you are in the studio playing?
I actually prefer the 96db tonal range the most. After that, it's seems that every two clicks sounded excellent with the in-betweens darker sounding. And of course there's the feedback. I wonder if there's a mathematic relationship between the wattage and the output that correlates, like even/odd harmonics?
I think the difference is mostly speaker distortion, feedback and the influence of the attenuator dropping
Dude, your guitar playing is awesome!
Man sounded great
Thanks Nick, great to hear that!
Dear Johan, I manufacture my own Guitar speakers, over 14.000 of them in over 50 years, and have burnt hundreds of them in testing, both mine and Celestion - Jensen - Eminence - etc. for comparison. I much suspect you used a "modern" or "reissue" Greenback here, which are not _exact_ copies of the early ones, by any means. Although they sound quite close. I much suspect they use far stronger materials, such as light but high temperature adhesives, high temperature Epoxy enamel wire, and Nomex "paper", all of which increase power handling and endurance. An original paper former (think brown paper bag quality Kraft paper) + "Synthetic" enamel coated wire + nitrocellulose adhesive (think model airplane adhesive) would NOT have stood that much, by any means. I was suffering watching while you increased power step by step, knowing by experience what happens. Already at - 3 dB (nominal 50W) you "should" have started smelling funny vapours (not still "burning" but enamel and adhesives overheating and releasing solvents, same thing as an overheated electric motor smell) and at full power (100W) it should have started smelling at about 30-40 seconds, beyond 1 minute speaker should have started sounding "dull" because softened adhesive becomes like putty (instead of original rigidity) and couples poorly wire vibration to former and cone. And some 30 seconds later it makes gurgling sounds and dies.
Sometimes you hear a strong buzzing, wires get loose (remember adhesive is becoming molten or burnt), crack and die. That it did NOT happen makes me suspect modern construction as I said above.
Why do I mention it? .... because somebody may have an irreplaceable late 60´s *cellulose paper* coil Greenback and feel "allowed" to abuse it, seeing that yours stood a lot, well above specs. Well, not applicable to the real old ones.
If I had been there, I could have told you *which* adhesive and former material were present, overheated Nitro/Epoxy/Cyanoacrilate smell very different from each other, same with Cellulose (Kraft) Paper and Nomex, which has a plastic base, think woven Nylon but standing much higher temperature without melting. In fact, way before melting, it makes bubbles or blisters, then speaker scratches big time. Thanks for your videos and specially the strong "feet on the ground" practical approach.
Cool tips and story! Maybe you can answer/ debunk some things i've heard over the years. About V30s, specifically the late 90s "UK MESA" ones:
What wattage are they actually rated for? I've heard 60/65/70w...
I've been told "they sound like a 30w old classic, but can handle the power!" Is this true?
Do they sound better than 'ordinary' v30s? Do they sound better/ last longer than any other Celestions one might be considering?
Out of curiosity, what are your favourite speakers? Which stood out over the years for whatever reason?
Absolute mad lad \m/
🤟😉
I've seen and heard a few guitar players in the early 1970's blow speakers in their 4 x 12 Marshall cabinets using the 100 Watt heads on stage. The speakers were 25 Watts and the amps weren't even cranked yet. Sometimes it's due to hitting the high notes and sustaining them for a while until the speakers blows.
Early 70´s speakers were quite different from reissues.
I have experimented with lots of small speakers. Didn’t really pay any attention to impedance. But I got some of the most satisfying sounds out of those dying speakers. I think probably they would be great for recording. I would play them until they literally smoked. You can get them out of whatever… Automobiles televisions radios whatever.
I wouldn’t use an expensive amplifier doing it, it might backfire on you. But I got really satisfying sounds with my PV ultra 120.
I love your videos man, very entertaining and learn some stuff, cheers from las vegas!!
Brilliant vid mate!!
Love this!!
Thanks Daniel!
I modified my first small harley benton 10w combo,originally it was screaming for help at 30% volume, farting at low tones. I put there home hifi speaker, the same 16,5cm but with 100w power handling and it plays very well for this size. Highly recommend doing it. 35 euro used combo and 8 euro speaker, plays like 100 euro gear and super compact :)
It’s like a 2 stroke motor. it runs the best before it’s about to blow!
I love this channel.
Man that little sucker was holding it's own for a good couple minutes at! Very impressive!
Yeah, quality speaker indeed
Hi Johan & greetings from Australia. I must say I've always wanted to try this but never had the "spare" equipment to try. Which Ohms Outlet did you use to avoid blowing up the amp?
Thanks! 16ohm output into 16ohm speaker
The...... tone....... is..... very...... awesome!!!
Loving that Gibson Ripper in the background...
I think that Johan always sounds like rock-'n'-roll 🤟🏼
nice test amazing sound .a bit dangerous but your the king.i have tried this before but low volume would dare try it that loud.in the begining i thought you doing this to an original greenback i was like oh noooooo johan .but its a great sound these speakers can takthe punishment i guess if you wire 2 speakers might be less dangerous and maybe can go for a bit longer than 3 minutes.
great video big respect to you.
Thanks, glad to hear it!
at the moment im using a 20 watts marshall thru 1 celestion greenback from the 70s.for home use and 2 ×12 celestion greenback when i want to go crazy still pushing alot of air thru 1 speaker .its a the 25 watts greenback i guess its safe still to run it from 20 watts marshall ??
THAT’S IT! I’m going to do this experiment with one of my 4 Celestion G12M-25’s from February 1973 (Pulsonic cones) into my ‘82 Hiwatt DR-103. I’m convinced! 😁
I’m just kidding! Those speakers came out of my late ‘70 Marshall Basketweave 1960/1982 4x12 angled cabinet & they’re stored away for safe keeping. I have the Celestion G12H Heritage Speakers (55 hz) in that cab.
Great licks!!
Thanks, glad to hear it!
A few years ago, I emailed "Dr. Decibel" at Celestion asking if it was safe to use a single 4x12 can loaded with Greenbacks with a Super Lead played quietly at about 112db for long periods of time. The answer was, "probably" saying that Greenbacks are conservatively rated at 25w. That answer was qualified though by also saying that you'd have to take variables into account such as how much distortion is used since a speaker can handle clean power better than distortion.