Mace sacrificed himself to save others in the real world, and he sacrificed himself to save others in the Framework. He may not have ever felt like a hero, but he always was one.
Ward did not have a regret changed. The only ones who AIDA actively changed the world for to "fix" their regrets were May, Coulson, Fitz, Mace, and Mack. Daisy and Jemma just took over their ai created avatars at this moment. All of the other characters are just ai created npc's that have developed over the years to the changes in this virtual reality, including Ward.
The first time Daisy went through Terrigenesis, we lost Tripp; the second time she went through Terrigenesis, we got Tripp back (in the same episode)! As others have already said, it was quite ballsy for the show to stick to one rule in the Framework - nobody remembers anything about the real world except for Coulson - and the result was quite glorious!
Did you notice that Coulson put his left hand on wards chest when he was talking about not letting emotion cloud his judgement, thought that was an awesome Easter egg considering that was the way Coulson killed ward in the real world and because he let his emotions get the best of him!
Grant doesn't work the same way as the others. He hasn't had a regret changed, he was already dead when they started the framework creation. There are things that are different from how his life went, but he isn't plugged in to erase a regret like the others. Also I always love the scene of Daisy in the framework going through terrigenesis. The subtle smile she has on her face as she goes in the cocoon and the way they played the same music as when her transformation happened in 2x10. Amazing
holy fucking hell, reading all these comments make me realize how many easter eggs to Season 1 the framework arc I've missed, and mind you I've watched the show more than FIVE TIMES over now ABSOLUTE PEAK WRITING
Its kinda funny that Hydra was formed to serve and bring back an inhuman, and in here they are hunting them. The world in the framework is also kinda the logical end point for what the Watchdogs and Nadeer wanted to do, so it ties into that too.
Rip Mace, at least he died a hero...and for me bringing back Trip was the most appropriate, because he's a shield agent who died due to the events of the show, so it stands to reason if he didn't run into any of the characters who had their lives re-written he'd be still in shield being awesome!
16:30 This world is only based on the regrets of the REAL pepole plugged into the framework, the others are just basically AI NPCs, the world isn't generated based on them 19:45 Mace IS inhuman here, that was his regret
In this world, Mace was an actual hero, that was his regret. And in the end, he went out as a proper hero as well, instead of a fake one, his other regret.
Let me refresh your memory a little bit.Go back to the first couple episodes of wanda vision there's a commercial on there for hydra soap. AOS : I paved the road.The rest of you just walked down it
Yeah someone said this and I instantly remembered those weird Wanda Vision commercials. That probably got some AoS fans really happy for a second there
I've always thought Daisy's main regret would have been not getting to grow up with her parents which would probably have made her an inhuman leader like her mother and ended up with her joining shield, just without all the losses.
@@kampfkeks6980 I know I just mean in theory like when Aida was offering her a life with Lincoln, she’d still have a lot of trauma/tragedy before she met him
@@kaiafie Right. AIDA thinks that's Daisy's biggest regret. I've always wondered if *Ward* wasn't really her biggest regret, because she was already falling for him before his reveal. Which would be convenient, since he's already good in the FW (possibly due to the effect of Coulson's regret).
*_Mace WAS a cool character! Which is the AoS writers doing their magic yet again as he was introduced as a bit of a shill at the start of the season, was then made to be seen as a fraud, but shown to have the heart of a hero and, in the end, sacrificed himself like a true legend to protect not only the team, but also the kids he thought to be true. Just like in the comic books, The Patriot showed himself worthy of becoming Captain America!_*
6:34 I think this a reference to that time, in season one where, Simmons was funny impersonating Ward after he asked fitz to fix the night night gun and Ward was standing right behind her.
A few things I’m sure you’ve figured out now but just in case: No one else’s regret was changed except for the people Aida herself put in the framework. So only Fitz, Mack, Mace, Coulson and May. Radcliffe is the exception in a way. Everyone else is code that is detailed and reflects reality because of the dark hold. But they are only effected by the changed choices of others as well as Aida. No one else remembers anything from the real world and none of them snap out of it except for Coulson because of the broken brain stuff. It is also the reason Fitz has a vague recognition of Simmons even if unclear because of his brain damage. But no one snaps out of the framework or remembers their outside life except for a few tidbits for Coulson that have leaked through the cracks. Radcliffe and Agnes are real people alongside the others. When they die that is real people dying in a way. Mace actually was inhuman in the frame work. The world is different because of a changed regret but also because Aida or Ophelia inserted herself in the narrative and without human emotions doesn’t understand the true difference between right or wrong and so has actually twisted the world in a way she wants. It’s not 100% just everyone’s regrets changing things but also her own individual decisions. For example like trying to get close to Fitz on purpose. Fitz dad being in his life did effect him but also Ophelia effected him which was something that was not part of the natural course of this world. Ophelia purposely put herself close to him which I think is part of why he is so different. As originally in the framework if I remember correctly he still went to shield to study science, and still would have meet Simmons if Ophelia hadn’t stepped in first.
RIP Mace. He annoyed us at first with his corporate team shrill and separating the team, but he had a good heart and cared about helping people and even gave himself fake powers to protect people in danger. But yes, unfortunately dying inside the Framework is such a shock to the system (because they believe that reality is real) that it probably caused his body to shut down in the real world. It’s hard for me to imagine, personally, but the brain is such a powerful organ that can be influenced beneficially or poorly, and they really show that again and again in this show.
One question, though: Does this mean that 4x22 will also be a single reaction? I hope so, because I would prefer 5x01 and 5x02 to be a double reaction all on its own. Or is season four's two eps a week going to go back to single episodes from season five onward?
This is the first time I ever cried watching a show. Mace's death hit me HARD out of nowhere. The second time was the end of Season 5 (at the time, that was supposed to be the series finale).
I've always said, it's fitting that May be the one to give Daisy her powers. While she couldn't help the inhuman girl in Bahrain, she was able to help a different inhuman girl.
I'm not sure I like the idea of using the simulation created by the Darkhold to summon dead people into robot bodies haha Cannot imagine that going well
Gavin, if you want more of Mace, you can always watch Terra Nova (shot in Australia, so the sets are beautiful), where Jason is the main character. :) I can't say anything without spoiling it, so that would be all from me, but yeah, I think everyone got used to Mace. It's a shame (just like with Ward), they could've make something with them and those LMDs. Brett Dalton once mentioned he would take that role immediately, that he could be a good robot. xD That was on the panel he and Elizabeth attended btw, the funniest 40 minutes or so of any interview that I've watched. It was somewhere around the beginning of season 4, so if you want to check it out, there are no spoilers in it. And these two (Elizabeth and Brett) are one hilarious duo.
In afraid to ask, but how far have you gotten into season 5? 😅 Hopefully not to long, its more enjoyable to watch and comment when it feels like we are talking to the person in the video and not a person who has seen 10 episodes beyond that😅😂
I'd have liked them to bring some people from the Framework back, too, but then we'd have to see Ghost Rider brutally kill an elementary schooler lol. Or Trip, I wouldn't want to see him die *again*. Then again, maybe the problem wasn't so much the transfering of people as it was Aida making herself real, to where simply moving the Framework people's minds into LMD bodies would be okay? Not sure Ghost Rider would see shades of gray like that, though. Just gotta file it under the bittersweet category that this show is so good at :(
I believe transferring NPCs into LMDs would be fine it'd be just a data transfer to an already-built body from a material that came from this reality. The issue of Aida making herself real was using the same kind of machine that Uncle Eli was using that was creating "rifts" in the other space, Eli already made big holes in that universe with the matter he was stealing, Aida with Hydra Fitz went a step further creating life; living, breathing human body - one of the most complex things that we know; of course that would create a disaster and have implications that's why Ghost Rider had to stop it.
@@simon01920 Yeah I think there's definitely potential there, it's just impossible to say for sure. No character mentioned it as an option, not even Radcliffe, and even if they wanted to they didn't have time. Plus there's all sorts of ethical questions involved. Ghost Rider might've been fine with it, or he might've still seen the new LMDs as abominations that shouldn't exist. One of many reasons this season spawned so many what-if discussions and fanfics.
An LMD GoodWard would be fantastic. But a lot of people would be very confused by GoodWard, and it would be tough for him, because he loves Skye, but Daisy Johnson will never be able to love him back. Even if she can get past the whole Wardness of it all. It would be unfair to GoodWard to bring him back into the real world.
Why didn't Aida change anything for Radcliffe? He was the only one who knew about the backdoor and if she had given him different memories, there would have been no way for the SHIELD people to get out...
I think that once you know you can’t go back to not knowing, like Coulson. Aida had to restart the whole framework to accommodate all the times May worked out it wasn’t real so she’d undo all her progress if she reprogrammed Radcliffe.
I think she couldn't. She did circumvent her programming killing Radcliffe's human body as she deemed it a threat to the framework. However, when we watch the scene where she killed Radcliffe and how she "fixed" her paradox, pieces of dialogue used, they were only talking about the physical body, she still had the preserve Radcliffe's life above all else and memories imho are part of the "life" she needs to preserve, otherwise, she would have done it, cuz she knew Radcliffe could jeopardize her plans. There is no other logical explanation.
My only critique of this arc is Mace should have been Captain America in the framework, they could just easily give him the mantle, since it wouldn't affect the main MCU And technically, Cap was never revived in the framework Plus, Mace was retconed to be the second Captain America in the comics
But it's not, Soda is the correct term because that was the name used in the patent when Soda Fountains were invented Pop was only used in some places because they never got widespread machines, and instead referred to bottled soda as pop because of the sound it made when opening
@@spamfilter32They're both correct, it's a regional thing. Some areas say soda, some say pop, some say soda pop. Just like some areas call the evening meal dinner and some call it supper. It's honestly a ridiculous thing to argue over.
It's been so long that I forgot how Patriot died, but it still had the same effect on me. Would've loved to see him in the main MCU story. He could've been great in the Falcon & Winter Soldier part of the MCU.
That little smile Quake gives to May, as the husk forms around her, never fails to make me punch the air.
Mace sacrificed himself to save others in the real world, and he sacrificed himself to save others in the Framework. He may not have ever felt like a hero, but he always was one.
Ward did not have a regret changed. The only ones who AIDA actively changed the world for to "fix" their regrets were May, Coulson, Fitz, Mace, and Mack. Daisy and Jemma just took over their ai created avatars at this moment. All of the other characters are just ai created npc's that have developed over the years to the changes in this virtual reality, including Ward.
The first time Daisy went through Terrigenesis, we lost Tripp; the second time she went through Terrigenesis, we got Tripp back (in the same episode)!
As others have already said, it was quite ballsy for the show to stick to one rule in the Framework - nobody remembers anything about the real world except for Coulson - and the result was quite glorious!
Tripp was one of my favorite returns for this, his death was so unfair 😭 RIP Mace, you grew on us eventually
I’m pretty sure Mace was an Inhuman in the framework. His regret was not being the hero the world though he was
"Because sometimes what people want, isn't right for them" that line hit hard
Did you notice that Coulson put his left hand on wards chest when he was talking about not letting emotion cloud his judgement, thought that was an awesome Easter egg considering that was the way Coulson killed ward in the real world and because he let his emotions get the best of him!
Technically Fitz gave the order which killec Mace, so really he did it.
Grant doesn't work the same way as the others. He hasn't had a regret changed, he was already dead when they started the framework creation. There are things that are different from how his life went, but he isn't plugged in to erase a regret like the others.
Also I always love the scene of Daisy in the framework going through terrigenesis. The subtle smile she has on her face as she goes in the cocoon and the way they played the same music as when her transformation happened in 2x10. Amazing
I think it is a side effect of Coulson regret, without him Garrett never roused in ranks and Hand guided him instead of corrupt.
John Hannah, the actor who plays Radcliffe is phenomenal. Honestly he's one of my favorite non-regular cast members.
He was a regular cast member for season 4
The call backs make me appreciate the previous seasons so much more. This show does everything so well.
holy fucking hell, reading all these comments make me realize how many easter eggs to Season 1 the framework arc I've missed, and mind you I've watched the show more than FIVE TIMES over now
ABSOLUTE PEAK WRITING
Its kinda funny that Hydra was formed to serve and bring back an inhuman, and in here they are hunting them. The world in the framework is also kinda the logical end point for what the Watchdogs and Nadeer wanted to do, so it ties into that too.
Rip Mace, at least he died a hero...and for me bringing back Trip was the most appropriate, because he's a shield agent who died due to the events of the show, so it stands to reason if he didn't run into any of the characters who had their lives re-written he'd be still in shield being awesome!
16:30 This world is only based on the regrets of the REAL pepole
plugged into the framework, the others are just basically AI NPCs, the world isn't generated based on them
19:45 Mace IS inhuman here, that was his regret
In this world, Mace was an actual hero, that was his regret. And in the end, he went out as a proper hero as well, instead of a fake one, his other regret.
Let me refresh your memory a little bit.Go back to the first couple episodes of wanda vision there's a commercial on there for hydra soap. AOS : I paved the road.The rest of you just walked down it
Yeah someone said this and I instantly remembered those weird Wanda Vision commercials. That probably got some AoS fans really happy for a second there
@@JustGavinBennett It did.
Is that a confirmed official reference or just coincidence?
@@David-bf2cg Are you referring to the quote I posted?
@@tomhardie3393No, the Hydra soap thing in Wandavision
I've always thought Daisy's main regret would have been not getting to grow up with her parents which would probably have made her an inhuman leader like her mother and ended up with her joining shield, just without all the losses.
She didn’t have a regret fixed, she just took over the body of her „NPC“
@@kampfkeks6980 I know I just mean in theory like when Aida was offering her a life with Lincoln, she’d still have a lot of trauma/tragedy before she met him
@@kaiafie Right. AIDA thinks that's Daisy's biggest regret. I've always wondered if *Ward* wasn't really her biggest regret, because she was already falling for him before his reveal. Which would be convenient, since he's already good in the FW (possibly due to the effect of Coulson's regret).
*_Mace WAS a cool character! Which is the AoS writers doing their magic yet again as he was introduced as a bit of a shill at the start of the season, was then made to be seen as a fraud, but shown to have the heart of a hero and, in the end, sacrificed himself like a true legend to protect not only the team, but also the kids he thought to be true. Just like in the comic books, The Patriot showed himself worthy of becoming Captain America!_*
6:34 I think this a reference to that time, in season one where, Simmons was funny impersonating Ward after he asked fitz to fix the night night gun and Ward was standing right behind her.
A few things I’m sure you’ve figured out now but just in case:
No one else’s regret was changed except for the people Aida herself put in the framework. So only Fitz, Mack, Mace, Coulson and May. Radcliffe is the exception in a way. Everyone else is code that is detailed and reflects reality because of the dark hold. But they are only effected by the changed choices of others as well as Aida.
No one else remembers anything from the real world and none of them snap out of it except for Coulson because of the broken brain stuff.
It is also the reason Fitz has a vague recognition of Simmons even if unclear because of his brain damage. But no one snaps out of the framework or remembers their outside life except for a few tidbits for Coulson that have leaked through the cracks.
Radcliffe and Agnes are real people alongside the others. When they die that is real people dying in a way.
Mace actually was inhuman in the frame work.
The world is different because of a changed regret but also because Aida or Ophelia inserted herself in the narrative and without human emotions doesn’t understand the true difference between right or wrong and so has actually twisted the world in a way she wants. It’s not 100% just everyone’s regrets changing things but also her own individual decisions. For example like trying to get close to Fitz on purpose. Fitz dad being in his life did effect him but also Ophelia effected him which was something that was not part of the natural course of this world. Ophelia purposely put herself close to him which I think is part of why he is so different. As originally in the framework if I remember correctly he still went to shield to study science, and still would have meet Simmons if Ophelia hadn’t stepped in first.
That, "someone's been juicing. Unless you're one of us now." line. Because of course the reveal that he had been juicing to appear to be one of them.
"Also I used to think that the UK was as big as the US. It's not. I'm not good at Geometry."
I almost spit my beer at that 😝
I 100% did not say Geometry (maybe that’s your autocorrect) but that woulda been funnier and I should’ve said that lmao
My favorite Coulson alias is Pablo Jimenez for pizza delivery
RIP Mace. He annoyed us at first with his corporate team shrill and separating the team, but he had a good heart and cared about helping people and even gave himself fake powers to protect people in danger. But yes, unfortunately dying inside the Framework is such a shock to the system (because they believe that reality is real) that it probably caused his body to shut down in the real world. It’s hard for me to imagine, personally, but the brain is such a powerful organ that can be influenced beneficially or poorly, and they really show that again and again in this show.
YES!! Thank you! I thought episode 19 being a single episode drop for members was gonna make episode 17 a single drop for us😭
One question, though: Does this mean that 4x22 will also be a single reaction? I hope so, because I would prefer 5x01 and 5x02 to be a double reaction all on its own. Or is season four's two eps a week going to go back to single episodes from season five onward?
@@jackdubz4247 I think he said we'll be having 1 episode next week, followed by 2 and then the finale on its own
RIP Jeffrey Mace such a fantastic character.
Tripp 😊
Twrwip 🥺
This is the first time I ever cried watching a show. Mace's death hit me HARD out of nowhere.
The second time was the end of Season 5 (at the time, that was supposed to be the series finale).
Btw did u catch the blue hydra soap thingy? Remember the hydrasoap commercial in wandavision?
I've always said, it's fitting that May be the one to give Daisy her powers. While she couldn't help the inhuman girl in Bahrain, she was able to help a different inhuman girl.
I'm not sure I like the idea of using the simulation created by the Darkhold to summon dead people into robot bodies haha
Cannot imagine that going well
The US has a ton of accents as well. There are quite a few videos on RUclips concerning it.
The uk is a little smaller then Oregon, but with 67 million people instead of 4 million
Gavin, if you want more of Mace, you can always watch Terra Nova (shot in Australia, so the sets are beautiful), where Jason is the main character. :) I can't say anything without spoiling it, so that would be all from me, but yeah, I think everyone got used to Mace. It's a shame (just like with Ward), they could've make something with them and those LMDs. Brett Dalton once mentioned he would take that role immediately, that he could be a good robot. xD That was on the panel he and Elizabeth attended btw, the funniest 40 minutes or so of any interview that I've watched. It was somewhere around the beginning of season 4, so if you want to check it out, there are no spoilers in it. And these two (Elizabeth and Brett) are one hilarious duo.
In afraid to ask, but how far have you gotten into season 5? 😅 Hopefully not to long, its more enjoyable to watch and comment when it feels like we are talking to the person in the video and not a person who has seen 10 episodes beyond that😅😂
I'd have liked them to bring some people from the Framework back, too, but then we'd have to see Ghost Rider brutally kill an elementary schooler lol. Or Trip, I wouldn't want to see him die *again*. Then again, maybe the problem wasn't so much the transfering of people as it was Aida making herself real, to where simply moving the Framework people's minds into LMD bodies would be okay? Not sure Ghost Rider would see shades of gray like that, though.
Just gotta file it under the bittersweet category that this show is so good at :(
AIDA and the LMD brains where made from the dark dimension's energy, he would kill them
I believe transferring NPCs into LMDs would be fine it'd be just a data transfer to an already-built body from a material that came from this reality. The issue of Aida making herself real was using the same kind of machine that Uncle Eli was using that was creating "rifts" in the other space, Eli already made big holes in that universe with the matter he was stealing, Aida with Hydra Fitz went a step further creating life; living, breathing human body - one of the most complex things that we know; of course that would create a disaster and have implications that's why Ghost Rider had to stop it.
@@simon01920 Yeah I think there's definitely potential there, it's just impossible to say for sure. No character mentioned it as an option, not even Radcliffe, and even if they wanted to they didn't have time. Plus there's all sorts of ethical questions involved. Ghost Rider might've been fine with it, or he might've still seen the new LMDs as abominations that shouldn't exist.
One of many reasons this season spawned so many what-if discussions and fanfics.
An LMD GoodWard would be fantastic. But a lot of people would be very confused by GoodWard, and it would be tough for him, because he loves Skye, but Daisy Johnson will never be able to love him back. Even if she can get past the whole Wardness of it all. It would be unfair to GoodWard to bring him back into the real world.
Why didn't Aida change anything for Radcliffe?
He was the only one who knew about the backdoor and if she had given him different memories, there would have been no way for the SHIELD people to get out...
I think that once you know you can’t go back to not knowing, like Coulson. Aida had to restart the whole framework to accommodate all the times May worked out it wasn’t real so she’d undo all her progress if she reprogrammed Radcliffe.
I think she couldn't. She did circumvent her programming killing Radcliffe's human body as she deemed it a threat to the framework. However, when we watch the scene where she killed Radcliffe and how she "fixed" her paradox, pieces of dialogue used, they were only talking about the physical body, she still had the preserve Radcliffe's life above all else and memories imho are part of the "life" she needs to preserve, otherwise, she would have done it, cuz she knew Radcliffe could jeopardize her plans. There is no other logical explanation.
My only critique of this arc is Mace should have been Captain America in the framework, they could just easily give him the mantle, since it wouldn't affect the main MCU
And technically, Cap was never revived in the framework
Plus, Mace was retconed to be the second Captain America in the comics
Incorrect. Pop is the only proper way to refer to pop. Soda is only proper in certain limited circumstances. like Cream Soda. Or Backing Soda.
But it's not, Soda is the correct term because that was the name used in the patent when Soda Fountains were invented
Pop was only used in some places because they never got widespread machines, and instead referred to bottled soda as pop because of the sound it made when opening
@@jesusramirezromo2037 Pop is still the correct term. I can't help if others use the wrong term. Pop is king.
@@spamfilter32They're both correct, it's a regional thing. Some areas say soda, some say pop, some say soda pop. Just like some areas call the evening meal dinner and some call it supper.
It's honestly a ridiculous thing to argue over.
The crazy thing is that even though S4 is SO good, S5 is actually my favorite season.
It's been so long that I forgot how Patriot died, but it still had the same effect on me. Would've loved to see him in the main MCU story. He could've been great in the Falcon & Winter Soldier part of the MCU.