I really liked The Empire of The Hand. This the best version of the Empire. All the resources and might of an Empire without Old Palpy's xenophobia, inefficient bureaucracy, and stupidity from inept commanders to Grand Moffs. If I was a character in a Star Wars, I'd gladly join the Empire of The Hand, even as a stormtrooper!
@@ArK047 Problem is the public (as in, the every day person) doesn't understand Force users. Both the Jedi and the Sith are at fault for this and they are both responsible for the dumbest and life-wasting conflicts in SW lore. I'm not saying I dislike Force users. On the contrary, they are valuable assests once you understand their talents and take steps to make sure they don't get too arrogant at this. This is why Grey Jedi or independent minded force users with no affiliation to any order are the kind of Force users you'd want. They make good allies. The more I read about the Jedi and the Sith, the more I despise both of them. I think Thrawn would be wary at dealing with either side and would rather avoid working with them. Grey "Jedi" or free-thinking Force users would be the kind of allies Thrawn may need given their pragmatism and penchant to be more low key about using the Force. That makes them unpredictable and effective combatants because they'll use unconventional tactics and weapons to win any battle.
@Len Kagamine While technically it was the Republic which decided to carry this operation, you can still see the consequences: starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Post%E2%80%93Great_Hyperspace_War_counterinvasion
The First Order should've been more like the Empire of the Hand; no Death Star rip-off, no Sidious rip-off, no Vader rip-off, actually interesting leaders, etc.
@Lance Salter rogue one used some good ideas but they completely removed any hope of there not being continuity errors since they removed the Bothans...which was a big rallying point in the speech from Mon mothmas before the death star assualt...Disney screwed the pooch big time... And now they supposedly "leaked" George Lucas original plan for the sequel trilogy...which is a complete fabrication because I have copies of all original 9 scripts as of the first airing of ANH...and they are not what Disney "leaked"
@Rising Horizon Gaming that's only half true... All nine of them were written in around 1978... So it was all planned out... But he never did decide entirely whether he wanted to actually do it or not
They destroyed the clone, and the Galaxy paid the price. Thrawn would have led the forces of the Empire and Republic and minimize the destruction caused by the Vong...
For a faction created to fight the vong they played a suprisingly minor role in the vong war. I even can't remember reading about them in the new jedi order books.
That's because the Vong War wasn't written by Zhan. So the writers of that series either forgot they exist, didn't wanna use them, or Zhan wouldn't allow it.
@@marckrieger3277 It's explained in the Dark Nest Trilogy (and before, i think, in the Force Heretic trilogy in NJO) that the Chiss Ascendancy has restructured and "absorbed" the Empire of the Hand and in Dark Nest they say "The Empire of the Hand might return when needed", which they do in Fate of the Jedi. Apocalypse under Jag Fel. They could have played a bigger part in future books, but thanks to Disney, we might never know.
I've always thought it was extremely un-Jedi to murder a clone before it was able to do anything bad on its own, just because it was a clone of someone you didn't like
They didnt kill the clone on purpose. the vat had droid guards that activated when Luke and Mara entered and the clone was killed in the fighting and subsequent flooding of the chamber because of defence protocols the place had.
@@davidcomer2338 It just drowned because they didn't bother to try and save it. If they had activated it or removed the clone and taken it with them it would have lived. It was fully formed and was only on a timer to release it. Luke and Mara may have "spared" it but they allowed it to die without a second thought.
For those who might be interested, the Thrawn from the original EU very much sounds like Reinhart von Lonhengramm from the books/anime series "Legend of the Galactic Heroes", in the sense that he was an outcast, rose thru the ranks of a corrupt and senseless Empire, and became a leader who changed the Empire from within to be a better version of itself. It's a fun parallel.
Future suggestions: Carrack -class Light Cruiser and/or Marauder-class Corvette video, two of my favorite EU ships. Plus a video on the Corporate Sector Authority, the forgotten faction.
Fascinating. I had no idea the Empire of the Hand was NOT the forces that Thrawn lead against the New Republic. That means he only used what he had originally and what the Imperial remnants were “willing” to provide. That explains a lot. M
I love this video, thinking about it when Mara and Luke "destroyed" the Thrawn clone, there was a question if that was the only clone Thrawn made of himeself giving how Thrawn allways plans everything carefull,
Question for your potential Q/A show: what do you think Legends Thrawn and Canon Thrawn would think of one another if, through some weird cosmic incident, they had the opportunity to meet? #QuestionTime
I feel like canon Thrawn would see Legends Thrawn as a threat and would be prepared to kill him, however as long as their goals stayed the same they would cooperate.
Kind of a weird idea, but Thrawn and Revan had very similar battle tactics, and were portrayed as cold and ruthless military leaders who only failed due to a close ally betraying him. I think the KOTOR games likely took inspiration for Revans backstory from Thrawns military tactics, but in universe, is the any indication that Thrawn knew of/ respected Revans cold/brutal tactics?
I know I’m late but I doubt it, KOTOR came out well after most of the EU material had been written, and the writers of the EU books coming out at the time likely did not play the game so might not of even known who Revan was.
Thank you Corey, awesome video and I love trusting your knowledge of the books and Zahn’s real life intent and influence, it does so much more justice than wiki could ever do (especially when some wiki’s copy youtubers’ covers of topics and unfortunately, vice versa)
Waited so long for this, woo! Edit: For future videos if your list isn’t too long, maybe the Sruu-vii or Vagaari? (Sorry for spelling). The enemies of the Ascendancy or Unknown Region factions heard of in the books canon and otherwise?
Great video. The Empire of the Hand are by far my favorite faction in Star Wars. I wish that Disney had not closed legends so that we could hear more of them. They cannot come into canon because of the First Order, which is a very bad trade off. The First Order was so awful. Timothy Zahn mentioned that he planned to make a third book about the Hand of Judgement, which would also be the third book of another series, presumably the formation of the Hand. I think that that would have been the best legends series if it had come out. Hopefully we see some things from them in canon, though - for example, Kres’ten’tarthi and Fel. Chaos Rising is coming soon, and should have some good stuff, if not as good as the Hand.
Ah, some original Star Wars! The one, the only & never to be replaced. When Luke & Mara visited an outpost of the Empire of the Hand, they encountered Baron Soontir Fel & other forgotten Imperial officers. In their flight, Luke & Mara came across a clone of Thrawn. (All that happened after Heir to the Empire!)
I listened to the audibooks of the original Thrawn trilogy and duology, but not Outbound Flight. Now I'm listening to the first book in the new trilogy. Is it the same Voss Parck, canonized? If it is, I wonder why Pallaeon didn't get the same treatment. Maybe because there was no room for him being important in the Empire like he was in the duology and Zahn didn't want him to be any less?
The idea of Outbound Flight as a commentary on the Iraq war is extremely interesting. Do you have any sources on this? I'd be very curious to learn more. I know next to nothing about Zahn's politics, but I find the broad theme of "Star Wars as political commentary" endlessly fascinating.
@@harrambou9468 I mean the book bears almost no resemblance to the actual events surrounding the Iraq war, but if you think about the US domestic framing of Iraq, and the argument employed domestically to justify that war, there actually are a lot of parallels.
Remember, we could have gotten one of these stories. But Disney chose "Somehow Palpatine returned instead." I really appreciate how well thought out and interesting EU factions were. They really took Star Wars to a whole another level. To this day, I cannot think of one single good thing that came from the sequel trilogy. The only thing it has accomplished is importing millions of Disney consumer bots into the fandom, who literally think they own Star Wars now because 'daddy Iger' bought the franchise from a tired old Lucas. That we're in the wrong for not liking the new movies.
Wait, did I mishear? Was the OG Soontir Fel the son of Ysanne Isard, sent to join the Empire of the Hand as basically an intra-Imp-Warlord diplomacy gesture??
The way Canon has been going, I suspect we may see the return of old Legends material in the coming years. It won't be soon, mind you, but it probably will happen eventually.
J Sailer I honestly don't get why Lucasfilm won't let the authors still write books in the old continuity. All they have to do is put the "Legends" label on them. A lot of big franchises have multiple ongoing continuities, with a prime example being Marvel.
I hope they do something like this. It makes the most sense for Canon Thrawn’s character, and it would be vastly more interesting than if he was just continuing to do evil empire stuff for the sake of being evil.
I really would love to watch this video, but I am only about halfway through visions of the future and I don't want to be spoiled. I already am spoiled because of my extensive starwars research before I started reading the books, but right now unfortunately I don't want to watch this.
@@ArmouredProductions *"I have the patience of stone and the will of stars. My ascendance is inevitable. Let your death be the same..."* - Sith Emperor Vitiate
I really liked The Empire of The Hand. This the best version of the Empire. All the resources and might of an Empire without Old Palpy's xenophobia, inefficient bureaucracy, and stupidity from inept commanders to Grand Moffs.
If I was a character in a Star Wars, I'd gladly join the Empire of The Hand, even as a stormtrooper!
Not to mention no magocracy run by Force-users.
@@ArK047 Problem is the public (as in, the every day person) doesn't understand Force users. Both the Jedi and the Sith are at fault for this and they are both responsible for the dumbest and life-wasting conflicts in SW lore. I'm not saying I dislike Force users. On the contrary, they are valuable assests once you understand their talents and take steps to make sure they don't get too arrogant at this. This is why Grey Jedi or independent minded force users with no affiliation to any order are the kind of Force users you'd want. They make good allies.
The more I read about the Jedi and the Sith, the more I despise both of them. I think Thrawn would be wary at dealing with either side and would rather avoid working with them. Grey "Jedi" or free-thinking Force users would be the kind of allies Thrawn may need given their pragmatism and penchant to be more low key about using the Force. That makes them unpredictable and effective combatants because they'll use unconventional tactics and weapons to win any battle.
I would join as well
@@jaymikevillanueva1212 Can you tell me a single way in which the jedi are responsible for any conflict in star wars history?
@Len Kagamine
While technically it was the Republic which decided to carry this operation, you can still see the consequences:
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Post%E2%80%93Great_Hyperspace_War_counterinvasion
The First Order should've been more like the Empire of the Hand; no Death Star rip-off, no Sidious rip-off, no Vader rip-off, actually interesting leaders, etc.
@Lance Salter rogue one used some good ideas but they completely removed any hope of there not being continuity errors since they removed the Bothans...which was a big rallying point in the speech from Mon mothmas before the death star assualt...Disney screwed the pooch big time...
And now they supposedly "leaked" George Lucas original plan for the sequel trilogy...which is a complete fabrication because I have copies of all original 9 scripts as of the first airing of ANH...and they are not what Disney "leaked"
Kolonol1 I get what you're saying, but that was actually the 2nd Death Star that the Bothans got the plans for.
@@ltb1345 death star 1 is in a new hope is it not?
@Rising Horizon Gaming that's only half true... All nine of them were written in around 1978... So it was all planned out... But he never did decide entirely whether he wanted to actually do it or not
Rising Horizon Gaming He flip flopped on weather he would make them, but he did have an entire outline written out for episodes 7-8.
They destroyed the clone, and the Galaxy paid the price. Thrawn would have led the forces of the Empire and Republic and minimize the destruction caused by the Vong...
most important of all, he would be able to understand their art
Well, it could have been worse if they destroyed the whole Empire.
If only.
@@papawedge7396 if they destroyed the Empire than Vong would have won.
@@nickgennady dafuq? Lol
One of my favourite factions from Star Wars.
It's by far my most favourite faction from Star Wars.
Coruscant: you now serve the empire!!!
liberated planet: nah, we'd rather serve Thrawn
Coruscant: shocked pikachu face
Chiss lore is one of the most interesting pieces of Star Wars legends to me.
Glad to see another video on the Chiss and Eoth.
I completely agree with you, the Chiss are my most favourite species in the entire Star Wars franchise.
For a faction created to fight the vong they played a suprisingly minor role in the vong war. I even can't remember reading about them in the new jedi order books.
That's because the Vong War wasn't written by Zhan. So the writers of that series either forgot they exist, didn't wanna use them, or Zhan wouldn't allow it.
@@TheGgrrmanning Well they played part in the fate of the jedi books.
@@marckrieger3277 When was that?
@@TheGgrrmanning
Fell called ships of the empire of the hand when attacking daala. I can't say which book probably the last one.
@@marckrieger3277 It's explained in the Dark Nest Trilogy (and before, i think, in the Force Heretic trilogy in NJO) that the Chiss Ascendancy has restructured and "absorbed" the Empire of the Hand and in Dark Nest they say "The Empire of the Hand might return when needed", which they do in Fate of the Jedi. Apocalypse under Jag Fel. They could have played a bigger part in future books, but thanks to Disney, we might never know.
I've always thought it was extremely un-Jedi to murder a clone before it was able to do anything bad on its own, just because it was a clone of someone you didn't like
I agree, killing without any kind of due process is simply murder.
They didnt kill the clone on purpose. the vat had droid guards that activated when Luke and Mara entered and the clone was killed in the fighting and subsequent flooding of the chamber because of defence protocols the place had.
@@davidcomer2338 Yeah, I think they literally decided to spare it.
@@davidcomer2338 It just drowned because they didn't bother to try and save it. If they had activated it or removed the clone and taken it with them it would have lived. It was fully formed and was only on a timer to release it. Luke and Mara may have "spared" it but they allowed it to die without a second thought.
@@adventwolfbane They didin't have time to think it that far, they almost drowned themselves.
For those who might be interested, the Thrawn from the original EU very much sounds like Reinhart von Lonhengramm from the books/anime series "Legend of the Galactic Heroes", in the sense that he was an outcast, rose thru the ranks of a corrupt and senseless Empire, and became a leader who changed the Empire from within to be a better version of itself. It's a fun parallel.
God teir anime
Future suggestions: Carrack -class Light Cruiser and/or Marauder-class Corvette video, two of my favorite EU ships. Plus a video on the Corporate Sector Authority, the forgotten faction.
Thrawns and the chiss are so awesome !
Fascinating. I had no idea the Empire of the Hand was NOT the forces that Thrawn lead against the New Republic. That means he only used what he had originally and what the Imperial remnants were “willing” to provide.
That explains a lot. M
I love this video, thinking about it when Mara and Luke "destroyed" the Thrawn clone, there was a question if that was the only clone Thrawn made of himeself giving how Thrawn allways plans everything carefull,
I believe it wasn't, but Disney killed the creativity of our universe for their copy and paste universe unfortunately
I actually believe in a in universe theory (created by Mara Jade) of the second thrawn clone secretly leading the imperial forces during the vong war
Question for your potential Q/A show: what do you think Legends Thrawn and Canon Thrawn would think of one another if, through some weird cosmic incident, they had the opportunity to meet? #QuestionTime
They would find each other “Effective”
I feel like canon Thrawn would see Legends Thrawn as a threat and would be prepared to kill him, however as long as their goals stayed the same they would cooperate.
EU Thrawn would wipe the floor with Disney Wars Thrawn...
Kind of a weird idea, but Thrawn and Revan had very similar battle tactics, and were portrayed as cold and ruthless military leaders who only failed due to a close ally betraying him. I think the KOTOR games likely took inspiration for Revans backstory from Thrawns military tactics, but in universe, is the any indication that Thrawn knew of/ respected Revans cold/brutal tactics?
I know I’m late but I doubt it, KOTOR came out well after most of the EU material had been written, and the writers of the EU books coming out at the time likely did not play the game so might not of even known who Revan was.
They might mean in-universe, which my head canon is yes, since the chiss were allied with Vitiates sith empire
@@Hkgiu they were? Any references for this outside of SWTOR and that mess?
Thank you Corey, awesome video and I love trusting your knowledge of the books and Zahn’s real life intent and influence, it does so much more justice than wiki could ever do (especially when some wiki’s copy youtubers’ covers of topics and unfortunately, vice versa)
Love these Legends videos. I am a GM in a Star Wars campaign taking place in the Star Wars Legends universe.
he's the gigachad of star wars, just look at that jaw line
wouldn't it make more sense for Thrawn to create a second secret cloning vat in case someone destroys the first while he's away?
Waited so long for this, woo!
Edit: For future videos if your list isn’t too long, maybe the Sruu-vii or Vagaari? (Sorry for spelling). The enemies of the Ascendancy or Unknown Region factions heard of in the books canon and otherwise?
Great video. The Empire of the Hand are by far my favorite faction in Star Wars. I wish that Disney had not closed legends so that we could hear more of them.
They cannot come into canon because of the First Order, which is a very bad trade off. The First Order was so awful.
Timothy Zahn mentioned that he planned to make a third book about the Hand of Judgement, which would also be the third book of another series, presumably the formation of the Hand. I think that that would have been the best legends series if it had come out.
Hopefully we see some things from them in canon, though - for example, Kres’ten’tarthi and Fel. Chaos Rising is coming soon, and should have some good stuff, if not as good as the Hand.
Corey can u talk about the the Yuuzahn Vong War
The only faction worth fighting for! Without any good or bad label.
Ah, some original Star Wars! The one, the only & never to be replaced. When Luke & Mara visited an outpost of the Empire of the Hand, they encountered Baron Soontir Fel & other forgotten Imperial officers. In their flight, Luke & Mara came across a clone of Thrawn. (All that happened after Heir to the Empire!)
you should do a video on the various intelligence organizations in legends.
Will you make a something to share the stats of the ship Empire of the hand
Do some Episode on each ship in the Empire of the hand as there ship fact are limited
I listened to the audibooks of the original Thrawn trilogy and duology, but not Outbound Flight. Now I'm listening to the first book in the new trilogy. Is it the same Voss Parck, canonized? If it is, I wonder why Pallaeon didn't get the same treatment. Maybe because there was no room for him being important in the Empire like he was in the duology and Zahn didn't want him to be any less?
I think Pellaeon was in Rebels and the end of the New Thrawn Trilogy
He was mentioned once in Rebels, but he doesn't really show up.
The idea of Outbound Flight as a commentary on the Iraq war is extremely interesting. Do you have any sources on this? I'd be very curious to learn more. I know next to nothing about Zahn's politics, but I find the broad theme of "Star Wars as political commentary" endlessly fascinating.
That…doesn’t really make sense
@@harrambou9468 I mean the book bears almost no resemblance to the actual events surrounding the Iraq war, but if you think about the US domestic framing of Iraq, and the argument employed domestically to justify that war, there actually are a lot of parallels.
Look me in the eye and tell me with no hint of uncertainty that Henry Cavill wouldn't be a good pick for a young Thrawn.
Lovecat Productions stop giving me hope...
🤯
Remember, we could have gotten one of these stories. But Disney chose "Somehow Palpatine returned instead."
I really appreciate how well thought out and interesting EU factions were. They really took Star Wars to a whole another level.
To this day, I cannot think of one single good thing that came from the sequel trilogy. The only thing it has accomplished is importing millions of Disney consumer bots into the fandom, who literally think they own Star Wars now because 'daddy Iger' bought the franchise from a tired old Lucas. That we're in the wrong for not liking the new movies.
Thrawn, the hero the galaxies needed
Hmm... this seems familiar... *fully reads title* oh... no source material ah Kathleen?
Wait, did I mishear? Was the OG Soontir Fel the son of Ysanne Isard, sent to join the Empire of the Hand as basically an intra-Imp-Warlord diplomacy gesture??
Do you believe there is hope for new legends books? #questiontime
I don't think so. They kind of closed that with the Cade Skywalker story.
Vinnie Warlock I think there is some hope. Even if it’s a small thing such as finally releasing Escape from Dagu, even if it’s an ebook.
The way Canon has been going, I suspect we may see the return of old Legends material in the coming years. It won't be soon, mind you, but it probably will happen eventually.
I would love to see more Legends material, especially books on what the Empire of the Hand was doing
J Sailer I honestly don't get why Lucasfilm won't let the authors still write books in the old continuity. All they have to do is put the "Legends" label on them. A lot of big franchises have multiple ongoing continuities, with a prime example being Marvel.
Yay! Hand of Judgement! (can I be the thumb?)
Do you think that something similar to the Empire of the Hand could appear in canon ?
I hope they do something like this. It makes the most sense for Canon Thrawn’s character, and it would be vastly more interesting than if he was just continuing to do evil empire stuff for the sake of being evil.
Perhaps
I really would love to watch this video, but I am only about halfway through visions of the future and I don't want to be spoiled. I already am spoiled because of my extensive starwars research before I started reading the books, but right now unfortunately I don't want to watch this.
Balmorra, The Forge is an excellent background music to use.
Armoured Productions SWTOR players start manifesting outta thin air...
@@blackshogun272
Kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul
@@ArmouredProductions
*"I have the patience of stone and the will of stars. My ascendance is inevitable. Let your death be the same..."* - Sith Emperor Vitiate
The vong should be cannon
That would be interesting, but I also think we might have an enemy similar to the vong in the grysks.
I hope this is the direction the Disney+ shows are going.
Empire of ZA HANDO
What if thrawn lived
Never relate The Empire of the Hand to the first order ever again.
SW Reading club anyone?
What’s the main reasons behind all the lightsaber colours #questiontime
Disney ruined the lore