Fencing Has Big Problems.
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- Опубликовано: 5 янв 2024
- This is made in reaction to this video, fencing's biggest open secret, watch this for context:
• Fencing's Biggest Open...
Some links to stuff mentioned in this vid:
Mexican fencers/spanish refs:
www.proceso.com.mx/reportajes...
Logvin:
inss.ndu.edu/Portals/68/Docum...
suracapulco.mx/archivoelsur/a...
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/580...
realidadpoliticasv.blogspot.co...
realidadpoliticasv.blogspot.co... 
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Would have liked to make something a bit more concise but been putting this one off for too long. I put some links in the description for some of the things mentioned.
Thanks for speaking up. If everyone comes forward together nobody will be singled out
This is something I have found tremendous frustration with when I used to fence Sabre on the world level. My ex-coach was an FIE Olympic referee for USA, and so in a way his word (in conjunction with the consensus of the top ref cadre) was the real unwritten rule book. Domestically this gave my club a HUGE advantage simply because we had accurate insight into what the national refs were looking for - which was arguably correct but surprisingly deviated from the rulebook. The exact ramifications of what defines attack in prep vs attack counterattack in the middle for example, or what exactly you need to do to be rewarded the pull short riposte. Most people lose that action not because of the rulebook, but because there's this unwritten rules that moving your hand in a certain way is subjectively called searching for parry.. Which then let's the opponent score with their foot on the ground or with a 2-part attack. That advantage went away at world cups because all the top fencers are trained by the elite FIE refs who double as coaches, or by rockstar coaches who are in bed with the FIE because of the leverage they have on the sport. Then it becomes a game of who is "supposed to win". If you aren't a who's-who yet, you would be surprised how often you get screwed at senior world cups, it's like initiation. Why I quit Sabre, so bad for my mental health. I've recently come back, but I am perfectly happy only fencing domestically, better for my wallet and cortisol levels.
Not easy to put yourself in the spotlight on a risky issue, your courage is an example to us all!
One of the biggest frustrations I have with sport fencing is summed up in this one statement: "We've got a rule book which defines all the rules, but... is never updated and so those rules are pretty much ignored. If you want to be a good referee, one of the first things you learn is don't pay attention to the rule book."
.... explicitly written in learning materials of some national fencing federations - not the rules but the leading referees set "the right and wrong" .... "case law" as the guy put it
I agreed with most of said and I am admitting your bravery!!!❤ the most important is make clear plan how to fix our beautiful sport to make again interesting, competitive and clear from “mistakes”.
1. Change fencing time back to 170-200 ml second. It will give us 30% + one light touches and will make very clear ( like been before 2016) pare or tush in attack.
2. 100% following rules of definition of attack in the box. Who starts with arm is a winner. Attack is arm not a legs or speed. Gives us +15-20% of touches.
3. Same thing in the long attack- who initiated first warm is a winner. Today almost everyone impossible to win attack after going back. Another 10% touches.
4. Implement button with referee voice recorded for star the bout ( Zoran Tulum has started this and works amazing.) system will make decisions who is doing false starts.
5. Zoran also created sensor - only proper touch will be counted. He tried and it’s will illuminated a lot of simulations and will make fencers go for actions right away. +20% of touches.
6. Point line attack - only machine make decisions correct line or pass. We can’t see even on video 70% of time pass or tush. If light on and line is correct- tush.
This is enough for now. If we do this, we will take 50+% power from the referees. Fencing will become creative and much more interesting. We must be all together to achieve this goal!🎉❤ Today referees has all power and no clear rules- this is why so much “mistakes“ happened and we can’t proof anything.
One more- absolutely no appointments to FIE referees committee anyone who is National coach for any country or presedent of National Federation or Olympic Committee.
How can we help get these changes implemented?
I like your action list. Can you please provide more info (links, contact) about Zoran Tulum's work for the start button and the sensor thing?. REgarding the 6. "point in line": what sort of machine could decide if the line was good or not?
Simple solution: Switch to Epee! XD
Now, on a serious note (I'm relatively new to saber, I come from epee): I feel like the refs should just call simultaneous more often (maybe this could somehow be put in the rulebook, e.g. "if the situation is not clear the touch should be ruled simultaneous"). Then, after 10 simultaneous calls, one of the fencers will get bored and try to distance trap or parry their opponent and we will get an actual fought out point.
Alternatively, we could also try reducing the time for double touches from 170 to something like 100ms. Obviously this might lead to the focus of saber going away from being so strongly priority-based, but I think it could be something to try. The attacker would not be so overpowered and would have to watch out way more for attacks into their preparation.
Anyway, the first important thing is probably, as you said, to have the refs judge not by word of mouth but strictly by the rulebook.
Thank you so much for all your videos! The coach at my club doesn't teach saber, so I just fence it with my friends without formal coaching and your channel has really helped me get into it.
It's a very painful situation. Seeing something you love so much possibly having so much wrong with it. With refs and fencers allegedly toying with peoples livelihoods for their own benefit. Here's to hoping that this situation is investigated properly and that the sports reputation doesn't get too marred.
I personally fence foil but have been following this as well. It really concerns me how this seems to be rooted in the really top layers of the fencing establishment, which doesn’t exactly give much hope for any changes.
The issue with Sabre is that it’s so subjective and up to the ref that corruption is bound to happen. And frankly the tournaments don’t pay enough to refs to disincentivize it
Consider, do you ever hear a top level referee explain himself? I don't mean to the fencers after a call, since they can't challenge the interpretation of ROW. But afterwards, to the world. Nope. They won't. They can't. To do so would expose that they are inconsistent, know it, revel in it. They enjoy setting these trends. To codify their work would lessen their power, following instead of setting the interpretations.
This is essentially one of the reasons I stopped fencing competitively. I represented my country at a junior level and at that level I was either too young to notice or accepted the variable nature of individual referees' perception when it came to interpreting right of way (mainly in foil).
But as I got a bit older, I've just got sick of the fact the rules say one thing but "the convention" is to ignore that.
Thanks for speaking up and hopefully this can gain some real traction
Btw theres a neat way to HALF the refs impact:
Single light = 2 points
Double light with priority (decided by ref) = 1 point
You instead fence to 25 or 30 points. Done.
I encourage everyone to try it out in their club, it does wonders!
also long attacks scoring more than in the 4m
🤔🤔🤔
This absolutely needs to get more traction. It is a really good idea.
Well, think about how this would harm the fencers. Single light is definitely not TWICE as good as scoring a point in a clean action. I don’t think it is better at all. In sabre, it is very easy to have two lights since the whole blade is in action.
This can be easily exploited
@@nkyn5353 I think is more than twice as good if you hit your opponent and they don't hit you, but then would that make sabre too similar to epee?
At a minimum, referee’s should NOT have second jobs as coaches (or vice versa). Fikrat should not be an FIE ref and be a coach to someone who is trying to qualify for the Olympics. That is a serious conflict of interest…
Down with the high priests of priority!!! Saber fencing, saber fencers, saber coaches and the noble history of this sport deserve more than what these self entitled corrupt individuals have made it.
Former Foil fencer, coach and referee myself from Australia. Much like with Sabre, you have to throw away the rulebook when you referee at a higher level. Sadly corruption as well occurs even in my nation. I retired 6 years ago for a multitude of reasons, not all because of corruption but I was no stranger to experiencing some of it (bullying, people trying to coach when they are not qualified etc). I left for the sake of my own mental health and wellbeing.
this needed to be made and spoken about, glad you did
unfortunatly this is an old issue in fencing, we are talking mostly about sabre but the same happens in foil.
I agree... thanks for speaking up. It is clear that this degree of subjectivity makes it frustrating for all those involved... fencers and refs alike. Now it's time to offer solutions. Let's begin that list.
This makes me feel a lot better... I hate going to comps now it's just not fun 😭
You're great for this Slicer
I have to imagine this is why the men's epee events in the US are so much bigger. There's so much less referee dependence. As someone who's done epee for over a decade, I'm happy that that's I have larger events, but it's so frustrating to even watch sabre sometimes . Refs are the one thing that are preventing me from trying to fence sabre :/
these issues are why I stuck with epee. I love sabre but it can be so subjective that referee bias can go completely unchecked
This is mostly a Sabre problem but does extend to foil from time to time. When I fenced in college, I can't count the number of student volunteers that would help ref Epee and Foil, but would not touch Sabre because the calls made no sense to them, and think this is way, it always seem subjective. You could ask 3 different sabre refs in the hall their opinion on a call, and you would get 3 different answers.
Shorten the double touch lock-out period to 100 ms. Eliminate right of way and use epee rules. In a double touch with an off target and an on target light, the on target light fencer gets the point.
The more subjective the refereeing the less number of fencers competing: Sabre < Foil < Epee. That's how the fencing community responses to subjectivity.
It's a 21st-century moral issue. Nowadays, people just want easy jobs to gain money easily. People don't care where the money comes from as long they are gaining money. It's not a European problem. It's happening all over the world. Including Asia.
such an old issue. its like figure skating.
I love fencing but it’s no secret that the FIE isn’t going all too well and is quite biased
Now that's the big advantage of epee. When you speak about it like that, even hema judging seems more consistent in some occasions. Just do kendo, kendo doesn't have these problems! :D I hope... xD
I never got super far into kendo, and it definitely has fewer doubles than FIE sabre, but it still has objectivity issues. The biggest one that I remember doesn't come from tournament play, but from high level blackbelt tests where there are some unwritten rules about who's allowed to pass
To some degree, every sport has to be played to the refs. I competed back in the 80s and 90s, and it was important to get to know the directing style of the people who were officiating over your bouts. It's unavoidable that even the most virtuous of directors will not all interpret the action the same way. And not all directors are that virtuous.
It's also the reason thee FIE changes the rules every year, and in FIE tradition, the try all the worst possible alternatives first.
Interesting
I became a referee recently. not at a high level, only in my country, but in terms of saber fencing, one of the most respected countries. And I was surprised to see this video and the comments. During the referee training, they told us to stick to the rulebook and even searched for translation mistakes. They told us that if one starts their attack with a quick half-step back and the other doesn't make a big mistake, you should not award the fencer with a half-step back the point. Otherwise, the only differences I see during competition from the rulebook are stepping out of the piste on the side with one foot, never calling a halt, and not awarding points when someone attacks in the break of the other's attack. But i have seen them awarding cards when fencer A hit fencer B with the guard of the sabre. But when an unknown fencer fences against a well respected one, and there is a tough call, 8 out of 10 referees award the point to the "better" fencer even if it was simultanious or they cant decide.
Is anyone surprised by this? Refereeing in sabre is arbitrary even in friendly club bouts. You might as well just be up front and say you're giving the point to the fencer you like better.
Not to be (too) snippy, but are people finally past the "majority of touches are correct, reffing in sabre is beautiful and the inconsistencies make it more beautiful" bullshit?
100% . No need to be apologetic for pointing out what any fencer finds out if they fence very long. So, sabre fencing is very fun and epee fencing is very boring, but the human judgment of right of way is the confounding and, unfortunately, corrupting factor in foil and especially sabre.
After quitting competitions, I tried to keep up by carefully studying the latest rule book (USFA) and watching hours and hours of World Cup and Grand Prix fencing.
I even did my own translations from the French original. Your video pretty much summarizes my results. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for saving me from the fear that I was either illiterate or going crazy!
Take what I say with a grain of salt as I am still new to the fencing world and have only fenced locally in the US but in my limited experience I have noticed a few things.
The issue is accountability and laziness. The rules are black and white and outside of sportsmanship related rules, e.g. giving a point to your opponent by simply coming forward off the line allowing your opponent to score by not defending yourself, reason may b due to faulty equipment or the like when the point should have been theirs but there was only one light. This is technically against the rules but any referee that enforces it would be, for lack of a better term, crucified by the observing fans and possibly the coaches.
I have more than one example (personal experience or witnessed) of how the rules, although yes outdated, are very much good and laid out in a manner which allows someone with no bad habits to excel if studied. Someone who refuses outward influence of "convention" from coaches and referees in the community.
I can only imagine how corrupt it is at higher echelons. You didn't lose my attention after the initial introduction and build up but I cannot speak to anything outside of written rules and referees/fencers as a whole and our culture. Which keep in mind, I am still learning.
But I am going nowhere! I only started uploading video to help grow fencing in my community and state. I have no ambitions of having my YT being as large as you and Cyrus nor do I want that.
With respect, you seem miserable and it upsets me. Clearly you love the sport and people in it and want it to change for the better. You have my support and I look forward to our first bout.
I salute you sir.
*edited for grammar*
I started fencing epee & saber when I was in private school so i became quite familiar with the mess some aspects of it can be but that's why I do HEMA now. It's less bs & more fun. Besides its as close as one can get to a real sword fight w/o doing the real thing. Lol
No its really not lol. Only people who havent actually thought through how silly the abstracted, contextless "real fight" means think this
I agree completely re written rules; we have them and it's utterly stupid that they aren't enforced. I've campaigned for years within my own minor ambit to get fencers and referees to accept we should enforce the rules we have. Re the corruption allegations; I've seen the Open Secret video and the Honeybone example is nonsense. There was a previous video on this theme that focused on a match Honeybone lost to a Belarussian and it was precisely the same; the GB fencer's arm didn't extend and/or submarined down and back, making the attack incorrect. It's a basic call and easy to make.
I think we have to distinguish the real problem of the referees failing to enforce - or even read - the rules and instead depending on impressions they get from videos or gossip, fro the sort of thing the Honeybone clip illustrates. The latter is precisely a case of fencers and critics getting annoyed because the referee *is* enforcing the written rule.
;--;
epeeist lmao
As a sabre fencer, I am jealous
@@jarrarwinks8470 a lot of referees in epee are still incompetent when it comes to passe de touche stuff
@@jarrarwinks8470 As a foilist, i'm also jealous
no problem Slicer! Start historical Fencing. We have a clear rules and real swords
Why do HEMA folk always jump into conversations that don't involve them and start insulting Olympic fencing? Why would any fencer be inclined to try HEMA if HEMA people are constantly being dickheads?
Electric weapons ruined fencing.