Tiny House Winter Condensation & How to Insulate Your Trailer
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- A winter update on condensation in our tiny home, as well as an in-depth discussion on how to insulate your tiny house from your trailer.
⏵PREVIOUS CONDENSATION VIDEO --- • Tiny House Condensation
⏵WINTERIZING WATER SUPPLY --- • Winterizing Tiny House...
⏵FLOOR CONSTRUCTION METHOD --- • Tiny House Floor Const...
⏵ADVANCED FLOOR INSULATION --- • Insulate a Tiny House ...
⏵OUR OWN FLOOR CONSTRUCTION --- • Building our Tiny Hous...
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Just finished ep 18, began ep1 yesterday. am skipping ahead to your most recent so my comment might be read by you. I want to first say thank you for this amazing invaluable service you provide in your educating those of us with tiny houses on our minds & with little relevant experience. Your exquisite attention to the smallest of detail, constantly keeping your eyes on whatever the specific goal at the moment is, persevering through any obstacle, & carefully deliberate without any sense of haphazardness. You guys are models and an inspiration to me and all who watch and I’m very much looking forward to ep 19 all the way to the end. From Thailand with respect & appreciation, Sainam
Thanks so much for your encouraging comments :)
We have definitely encountered challenges, and haven't succeeded with every aspect of the build, but we hope that it will continue to be helpful to show every part of the process... including the challenges ;)
Thanks for still improving the design of all the Tiny houses. I sure your video will help many people.
Maybe for another video, as condensation is the number one problem of tiny house:
Could you explain what condensation is in detail? When does it happen in terms of temperature and hygrometry? And why insolation solve it? Which type of insolation will work next to metal?
Hopefully our videos continue to be helpful! :)
Thanks for the suggestion... sometimes it's easy to assume that certain concepts are already understood, but it's a good idea to get into more detail because the more in-depth your understanding, the better your decision-making will be.
Hey folks! I've seen with some off grade houses where they purposely run HVAC into the attic and crawl spaces to make the home more efficient. I think you could do the same by building a semi-permanent skirt around your tiny house and then push some circulation exhaust into that space. The temperature differential would be lower and the inside condensation might go away. Thanks for the video!
That's an interesting idea... you know, we just paused from replying to comments to talk about this and how we may want to abort our original air-exchanger plan in favour of a direct vent from our toilet box straight down into a skirted crawl-space, then have a fan to move air out of that space and into the open behind the house... our original penetrations for the air-exchanger could still act as make-up air, and I could even control the exhaust fan speed based on the outside temperature so we don't draw in too much cold air... we've found that we have windows open 24/7-365 anyway, so the whole heat-recovery idea probably won't add enough value in added efficiency compared to the complexity and time needed to build the thing...
I did a smaller flange around the outside. Still big enough for tie downs though. 2x6 subfloor with rigid foam. I also made sure to properly vent the metal roof. It isn’t as efficient as a really tight building envelope, but it breathes well and I haven’t had a problem with any condensation. Still stays toasty warm and heats up quick! Lots of other lessons learned along the way of my build though!👍
Something that we're coming around to now is realizing that the gains from doing a super tight and efficient envelope are small in a tiny house (especially considering you lose like 10% of your heat just by opening the front door for a few seconds!) but the drawbacks can come in forms that are unique to tiny homes, like the humidity that builds up so quickly in a small space. Sounds like you've got a good setup and prioritized the right things :D
Very informative! We also live in a tiny house near Vancouver Island (Puget Sound in Washington State), and have been battling similar issues for the last 3 years since we built ours. One of the best solutions for us has been a properly sized dehumidifier, capable of keeping the humidity in the house under 50% (preferably under 45%), especially in the winter when temperatures drop below freezing. You may already have a humidity gauge in your house, but if not, we can't recommend it enough. As for a dehumidifier, we use the 15-pint Ecoseb Desiccant Dehumidifier (Model DD122EA). Ivation just released a similar, cheaper 13-pint model which is equally capable. Both are on Amazon. We've tried smaller ones, but found they just weren't up to the task. Another benefit to these dehumidifiers is that they produce a little bit of heat in the process, which is a nice supplemental heat source during the winter. Ours is pretty much running 75% of the time in winter to keep humidity at a desirable level to avoid condensation and mold growth in the house. I would argue that it just feels noticeably more comfortable as well. Love all your videos! They were a huge resource when building our own tiny house.
Another thought: Perhaps a small layer of rigid insulation (1/2") on top of the subfloor, but beneath the exposed flooring inside the house would be another solution? It would probably have to be either XPS or Polyiso foam, which are denser and firmer than the cheaper Polystyrene, as to not collapse or squish down over the years.
Have you done any mold-killing, using bleach or some kind of cleaner? I see there's another comment recommending to do so... or risk "a slow painful death" XD
We have two of the smaller (no compressor) types of dehumidifiers right now, and they do alright since we're not yet showering in our house (the shower is the last major thing we need to finish off). We don't have a humidistat installed, but I plan to integrate it into our DIY smart control system :D
The builder Derin Williams (referenced in this video) has commented to me that any rigid foam board will compress over time, so placing it under any weight without solid support will eventually lose stability, so I think the best option is to integrate it into the structure, like you would any other insulation.
Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment!
@@tinynestproject Yes, we are currently dying slow painful deaths! I'm pretty sure mold is everywhere, even in the air we breathe outside, so I'm not too concerned. Black mold may be a different story though? We do use a product called "Mold Control", which comes in a spray bottle and is supposed to "stop & prevent mold". We spray down the surface of our Nature's Head composting toilet every now and then to kill any mold that may have found it's way out of the compost reservoir and settled on the surface of the toilet. Our toilet had a mold mite infestation once, but we don't like to talk about that because it gives us the heebie jeebies. We also clean the wood surfaces of our windows with it every spring to get rid of any mold that may have developed over the winter.
@@tinynestproject Marmox board IS the floor insulation board that is stable/resists compression .. that's the whole point of a special floor insulation
Is Marmox flexible? I haven't had time to dive deep into it, but it appeared to have concrete as the outer-most layer.
You could make a box underneath and fill the cavity with spray foam for insulation. Just where the flange is.
Definitely an option... would be quite a hassle so we're hoping to avoid that if possible. We should build a skirt around the exterior which might have a decent impact on the situation, but it might not be until next year that we put it to the test. Stay tuned!
Hey Jake, we too have run into that same situation in our Tiny over the past servers months. We are also framed up over the flange of our trailer which allows the cold to transfer through to our floor. Thankfully we used vinyl plank flooring so no worries of rot but it does still concern us. I was even considering doing a test with some rigid foam attached externally to the flange to see if that might help keep the water from forming. Maybe even skirting the entire trailer to see if that keeps the cold temps down.
Skirting is a good idea, and something that we've slacked on for way too long.
Go ahead with the rigid foam on the outside if you want to get some real data, but I suspect that it won't have much effect because the metal can conduct heat so well... any exposed portion of the trailer will essentially "wick" the heat away, so you'd really have to completely cover its surface :P
Awesome advice, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Morning Jake and Kiva! 🤪
It's plenty cold out for sure!
Thanks for the tips and things to consider once I'm ready to build... I'm actually in my tiny house right now, but it's not the pirate ship tiny house I've got planned... But it's home! 😃
Cheers!
🦇
Nice! well yeah definitely keep this in mind for the pirate ship :)
@@tinynestproject that I shall! As it's important! 😎
This is an interesting and pretty timely video for me. I just purchased a trailer that has the steel joists that I was planning to use for my subfloor and then put insulation between the steel joists and then the plywood subfloor on top of that. I'm in TX so I probably won't have to deal with the condensation issue as much as up north, but I am worried about the summertime and cooling the tiny house when it's 105 degrees out. I think I might make my own 2-3" sip panel to decouple the steel joists from the floor and then frame over top of that. Thanks!
Glad it provoked extra scrutiny in your build process. Just make sure that you have solid material to support everything... foam alone will compress, so you need wood blocking at regular spacing, just like any normal wall/floor/ceiling.
In terms of cooling during the summer, make sure to look into vapour-sealing that is appropriate for your climate, because it's possible to end up with the opposite problem to what we can have... which is that warm humid air from outside causes condensation when it gets close to your cooled interior (forming water inside the walls). I highly recommend checking out Matt Risinger's channel for building-science in general, but also because he is based in TX as well.
@@tinynestproject Thanks for the reply. Oh yes - I definitely follow Matt Risinger and will be using several of his practices in my build.
Thanks for sharing as I wouldnt have bothered insulating like that until this video! Do the better example videos you share account for the compression of insulation over time? Ta ✌
Glad we got you thinking about it :)
You always need some solid blocking to bear the weight of walls/floor etc. Don't try to build anything load-bearing on top of foam insulation. I think I show this general idea in one of the SketchUp Iron Eagle videos. You want to get as much foam board under there as possible, but put wooden supports as-needed.
I have 2 improvised solutions for you. You could add some ridged insulation to just the areas were you are getting condensation and then cover that with a moisture barrier -- maybe just a bunch of tape. That should keep moist air far enough away from a freezing surface.
Or you could just stick fans in those areas and run them when only when its cold. Given your climate I would go with the simpler fan solution myself.
I think adding insulation would work, but would be a real hassle... we did put a space-heat pointed under the couch and it dried up pretty quick... a regular fan (no added heat) could actually cause more condensation, because it would force even more of our interior air to come in contact with the cold surface. We learned this when we had our previous condensation issues (in that older video I mentioned). We pointed a fan underneath our temporary kitchen sink and it increased the condensation instead of drying it out... that's actually how dehumidifiers work: they refrigerate a surface and blow air onto it, then collect the condensation that forms and drips down.
@@tinynestproject I was thinking of preventing mold, but I'm surprised this would increase the condensation. What about heating the surface -- with a light bulb or something like you use on the pipes? If there's no cold surface there shouldn't be condensation. The other option would be a vapor barrier away from the cold surface but if the gap between the exterior surface and the new vapor barrier were to get cold enough you would have condensation again.
I would go try heating the surfaces that get cold enough to cause condensation.
Yes that's exactly what we've done: heated the area(s). But the problem is that since it's a weak-spot in the shell, it will cool down more quickly than the rest of the surfaces... down to a temperature that is cold enough to condense moisture. We have a new idea for a skirt (which we should have already done by now to be honest) which could reduce the weakness in the corners.
I can only comment on my experience I have had with condensation in the past on my wooden windows in my home. I have an older home not a tiny home but I have been installing 4mil plastic on the outside of my windows and since doing that I have had no condensation on the window glass since doing so. The heat inside the home transfers into the windows and heats the air between the plastic and the outside. When it does get cold here in central USA the plastic itself will have frozen condensation on it, but as soon as the sun hits the plastic it seems to go away pretty quick.
I've heard of this technique and seen it a few times, but the plastic was on the inside... I figured this was a vapour-seal to prevent the humid air from being able to contact the cold glass. It's crazy that the plastic can cause enough isolation to reduce the temperature differential as it has for you. I suspect it has to do with the fact that the trapped air is... well... trapped, instead of the glass of the window being directly exposed to the atmosphere.
If the metal is still exposed on the underside you may be able to add some small amount of protection. There is a automotive product called lizardskin that might help.
Ah neat, I've made a note to look into that stuff ;)
Jake, what about insulated skirt that I have suggested to you a few months ago? It should really help as nearly whole trailes metal would be contained into warm cavity/space. Thermal bridges are the most critical details...
Yes we know that we've been slacking on a skirt, but another recent comment got us thinking about how we can vent some exhaust air directly into such a cavity to further improve the floor-warming effect it could have... we will definitely do it... soon(tm)
Yeah - you are right, you can do the both. Exhaust warm humid air into undercavity of house and heat this space up. Maybe to construct some kind of mini heat exchanger thing - www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwja-LXCz7jgAhULLlAKHQqZBd8QFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bchousing.org%2Fpublications%2FHeat-Recovery-Ventilation-Guide-Houses.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2fDh3mmtMIEj0OmwzEo6vM
Yeah the original plan was that I would build a DIY heat-recovering air-exchanger... but after living in the house for quite some time now, I don't think the energy-savings makes the hassle of building/maintaining such a device worthwhile. You lose like 10% of the house's heat just by opening the door for a few seconds, so the amount that could be recovered is nothing... energy-savings is built-in to the fact that we're only heating a tiny space to begin with! Not to mention that sending (warmed) interior air to a closed space under the house would actually recover a portion of the energy since it would warm the underside of the floor.
Obviously in very cold climates, a recovery device could be worthwhile, but not where we live.
If memory serves me, I thought you put a vapor barrier under your primary floor and left enough to bring it up/over and over rap the edge several inches onto the top of the floor (under your wall framing). At this point, some small weep holes might alleviate pooling at collection points. There is a flooring product called Marmox board that I brought up to you at the time of the build that would have significantly given you better insulation, yet still you need to manage the moisture in your TH. Whatever happened to your venting/heat exchange plan for you TH? I also vote with Brandon about running a dehumidifier when it's cold (thou they are big, relative to a TH floorspace)
Not sure where you are suggesting to put weep holes?
We just saw a comment from John Norris (see our reply there) that got us thinking about our air-exchanger plan and how we might change our approach to it. It would still circulate air through the house, but the energy-recovery is probably not worth the effort of building and maintaining a complex DIY device... not to mention that exhausting into a skirted crawl-space would recover some heat energy in the form of warming the floor a bit.
@@tinynestproject weep holes are for odd wet/points to allow water droplets to migrate somewhere else .. i.e. Storm window/glazing usually has a couple of weep holes at the bottom to let water/moisture out .. it's a bit clugey but if a wet point is just left, it will rot. Air exchange/recovery is good but I thought the best answer was the dehumidifier for a dry TH. For all the work/effort/money you put into insulating your floor I would have thought the result would have been better
We're hoping to end up in a place where we have a small amount of air exhausting, combined with a small dehumidifier, and hope that between the two we can keep humidity at a good level.
The floor itself is great, which is basically automatic when building on an Iron Eagle, but as novice building-scientists we didn't scrutinize the perimeter enough. Other tiny house builders, like Derin Williams, have also learned and evolved techniques to improve these details, which only really comes with time and experience. It's also worth noting that we built our floor in 2014! my GOD we've been at this forever XD so back then there was a lot less that had been tested.