@@Wholelattelovepage thx for the Information. I use Bezzera Duo. 1/4 open is 5g/s , 1/2 open ist 8,2 g/s , 3/4 open is 10,1 g/s and full open is 13,4 g/s. The Problem is, when I open 1/2 the pressure is alway 10 Bar and more and the brew is not tasty.
@@mar1kus You're welcome. Yes, flow rates are different on Bezzera machines. If grind is fine enough you will reach max pressure eventually at even a 1/4 turn open. You can increase the bypass on rotary pump to reduce max pressure if desired. Another tactic is to close down the flow control some to reduce pressure as the shot progresses.
Very informative video. I just installed it on my plumbed-in Profitec Pro700 but water is still flowing in the OFF position. I also installed the included lower spring. Thanks.
Hi Jon, you are welcome. Here's some more info on using flow with profile graphs and more: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
Hey Mark, I installed the ECM flow control on my Synchronika yesterday. Now with the brew lever fully open, and the flow control completely closed, I still have flow through the brew head. I can't seem to get the flow to stop, even though I have the flow control closed as tight as I can get it. Any thoughts?
Hi LM, sound like the sleeve on the flow control has dropped down preventing you from fully closing. Loosen the black knob on the flow control. That allows the sleeve to slide up on the valve shaft. While loosened, close the valve. Then use a credit card or similar to maintain a gap between the bottom of the sleeve and base of the flow control. While in that position, tighten the black knob. Here's a video showing how to do that. The flow control part is out of the machine in the video but it can be adjusted when installed: ruclips.net/video/ELIwD40tsrs/видео.html Hope that helps!
Sorry for the newbie question. You probably explained it already but if so it was lost on me. If I don’t want to jump right into flow control just yet, in what position should I leave the knob? Just got my Pathfinder with flow control yesterday and I LOVE it! Tad bit intimidated.
Hey 80's, Sorry for the delayed response - appreciate your patience. Don't be intimidated! Yes you can just leave the flow alone. What you're looking for to get the stock rate like you had no FC device is 7-8 grams per second of water out of the group. So without a portfilter in place run the machine into a measuring cup for 20 seconds. Then divide the number of milliliters you got in the cup by 20 to get the flow rate in grams per second. 1ml = 1g of weight. So if you had 140ml come out in 20 seconds that would be a flow rate of 7g/sec. You may need to try various valve positions to zero in on were you get that 7-8g/s of flow.
the flow kit control kit that I just recieved (today funnily enough) for the ECM Synchronika came with a different, stronger spring, whats the reason for this.
That's to disable the E61 "build in" preinfusion. With the flow control kit you have the full control of the flow (and therefore pressure) so you don't want to have interference with the preinfusion spring.
Actually thinking about adding a flow control for our ECM Syncronika. But you made one comment regarding steam pressure. My wife drinks latte’s. We have the presure set at 265 which has been fine. You mention the higher the better. I noticed you were at 271. Would that make much of a difference? Thanks!!
Hi, Actual max steam setting is 270F. Going higher with temp gives more steam pressure/power. Milk will steam faster and roll more vigorously. If you've got the skill to use, it does make a difference!
Hey Marc! Digging my Profitec 400 w/ flow control recently purchased from WLL, but the pressure dial on the brew group doesn't function. The flow control itself works perfectly and produces fine shot. That gauge on the brew group isn't super critical but still a good tool to know when you're at full 8 bar pressure. Thanks! EDIT: Just noticed the Customer Service message system on the website; submitted the issue through that.
Hey greg, Congrats on your new machine and thanks for your patronage! The gauge issue should be easy to resolve and CS ticket system is the way to start the process. Marc
Hi Beau, Thanks for the question. I think it's unlikely. Rocket Espresso is somewhat committed to pressure profiling with domestic machines like their R Nine One. Pressure profiling and flow control are similar in some respects. At end of day I believe flow profiling gives more control. But there are arguments both ways. Marc
Hi Mark, Well, it's not exactly normal but easy to correct. Sounds like the collar which holds your flow control knob has dropped down a bit preventing the valve from closing all the way. If you loosen the black knob you can adjust the up down position of the collar so it does not bottom out and prevent full closure of the valve. Leave a gap of about a credit card's width below the collar with the valve fully closed then tighten the knob so the collar does not slip down. Marc
hey WLL will the FCV choke up the 3 way solenoid valve when you close the FCV to end the shot? or will it work the same as closing by lifting the lever?
Hi DY, It will have an affect. If you end an extraction with the valve closed pressure will bleed off from with the PF. If ended closed there wasn't much there anyway. Also if you end closed is a good idea to do a short flush after the PF is off to recharge the group with water. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc! Thanks for you insights! thats a good to know to have a short flush after the shot. if thats the case it will not be a good idea to have the FCV closed while having the machine on stand by/heating up, as i believe it will affect the thermosiphon of the group head to regulate temp right?
Hi Don, If it's a machine with E61 group yes you can. Retailers have different policies. At this time we are limiting sales to those who have purchased an ECM or Profitec machine from us in the past. Marc
Now using the flow control on a Rocket E61 machine. Amazing! I follow the flow rate with the Acacia brewing app. So cool! I’m really blown away - even with manual control.
Hi Nick, Thanks for the question. I'm not at all concerned about the 8bar. We could have adjusted the OPV up to produce 9 but it's not a big deal. IMO at anything over 6 bar flow rate is more important than pressure. FC does not affect pressure within the machine but does affect pressure within the group. Marc
Hi Mike, Thanks for the comment. The spring is not required. But can be installed if desired. The extra spring is a little stiffer than stock to prevent water from filling the pre-brew chamber in the group at the start of an extraction. We have this video on how to install if desired: ruclips.net/video/WLHKQt06YcI/видео.html Marc
Hi Mark. Been a big fan of your channel. I bought a flow control device and just want to ask for advice. is it normal for the knob with the stem to get quite warm and also notice that it takes some effort to turn the flow device when machine is up to temperature. Worried about forcing the knob as it might damage things imside. This is in stark contrast when the machine is cold. Where i can do full 2 turn with ease. Thanks Mark and hope to hear some feedback and advice.
Hey JO C, Thanks for the comment and question. It is normal for the knob to get warm. I've used many dozens of Profitec, ECM and Quick Mill machines with flow control installed and never run into one which was difficult to turn. As it's a relatively simple device which turns a robust needle valve to modify flow I doubt there's any risk of damage from forcing. In your shoes I'd turn the valve all the way open and lubricate the exposed shaft with a food safe grease - petroleum jelly like Vaseline works for that. With the machine warm turn the valve full open full closed repeatedly to work in the lubricant and that might loosen it up. Outside chance there could be a manufacturing anomaly with your FCD causing issues. In that case I'd get it replaced. And for more fun with flow check this link with graphs of 5 flow profiles for a variety of brewing situations and more info on getting the best results: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Hope that helps! Marc
Hi K, They are related but not the same. IMO flow through the coffee is more important than pressure. It's the flow which removes solids into the cup. With pressure profiling as the puck erodes during an extraction the same pressure will produce a higher flow rate through the coffee. Marc
Hi Marc, I just purchased a Pro 700 FCD. I love the flexibility the FCD brings. I'm curious what the standard flow rate is on the 700 non-FCD model. I'm trying to baseline/dial in and I feel is important to know that standard flow rate to get there. Sorry if I missed this somewhere.
Hi JS, No need to be sorry. Stock flow rate on the Pro 700 is ~11g/sec. Rate is same for plumbed or reservoir feed. Stock flow rate on The Pro 500 with vibration pump is 8g/s. It is important to know stock flow rate and there's no reason to ever run the flow wide open. Marc
Hoping WLL will eventually test/post a comment on how many grams of water the stock ECM Synchronika (non flow control unit) puts out in 10 sec. so you know how to determine or calibrate where to set the flow control handle, since it's hard to know the proper position. For instance, my flow control handle shut off position is not the same position as the one in the demo and it's hard to know the proper originating position to match a non modified ECM unit out of the box, etc. Thanks WLL!
Hi RH, Thanks for the question. Flow from a stock E61 and that from one with the FCD will be the same when the FCD is wide open which is ~1.5 revolutions from fully closed. Thinks it's about 11g/sec. Here's my video on how to determine flow rates at various valve positions: ruclips.net/video/P1Vz7aa_KtI/видео.html FYI you can move the handle to stop at a different position when fully closed. Marc
Hey! I really enjoy your videos. A quick question: I also have the ECM Synchronika. I felt that my Rotary pump is getting a bit noisier than it used to be. The brew pressure went to almost 10 bar. I adjusted to 9 bar. So now, while pulling a shot it shows 9 bar and 8 bar at the flow control reading. However, in your video your ECM shows 8 bar. Why is that the case?
Hi Martin, Thanks for the kind comment and question. Not unusual for pump sound to change. A few reasons it might. Could be an internal part like a pipe etc. is making contact with something and changing the tone. Not sure where you purchased your machine. On Synchronikas we ship there are to wing nuts under the machine which hold down the pump for shipping. These should be removed when machine is setup. Leaving them on will not hurt anything but can cause excess noise. A surprising number of our customers miss the instructions to remove those. I'm assuming you adjusted pump pressure with a backflush disc and using the reading on the machine's brew pressure gauge. When using flow control the machine's pressure gauge will almost always read the pressure set by the bypass of the rotary pump and the reading will in most cases be slightly lower on the group mounted pressure gauge. The setting of the flow control will cause differences in pressure on the group gauge vs. the machine gauge. Grind size has an effect on that as well. During an extraction you will generally see the group pressure gauge drop a bit as solids are removed from the puck if the flow rate stays the same. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi Marc. I finally have the ECM FC and wanted to give some feedback and ask questions. Firstly, The unit only comes with fitting instruction. No how to use at all, no flow profiles nothing. That is very disappointing. WLL videos seem to be the only resource available on how to use it to get going. Thank you. My FC came with a heavy-duty spring for the lower E61 valve. I found it has very poor discharge at the end of shot and have put back the original spring. Q, What is this spring about and should I put it back in? With the FC fitted, I’m having a hard time to dial in new beans. In the video, 4:35, you adjusted to full flow, just as if no flow fitted. For me at full open the flow is way to fast. I ended up refitting my original valve to see what standard flow was 5.5gm/s, (which is ¾ turns with FC fitted) as I had no idea my benchmark without FC fitted. Q, When dialing in new beans, do we set the valve wide open or set to standard flow rate without the FC fitted? Should we grind finer with the FC? I’m not sure if you recommended to check the standard flow rate before fitting the FC? As advised, I have checked the machine flow rates by measuring the weight at different turns of the FC. Q Doesn’t the pre-infusion chamber have an effect, so when you stop and start each shot it actually effects the flow at the start of your measurement? Maybe better to leave pump running for the test and have a few cups lined up..? When you guys adjust the flow, it’s methodical, relaxed and takes for ever. For me, it is crazy! If I attempt a long pre infusion, at some point a channel must appear because the liquid just gushes out. If I set the flow to ¾ and keep it there, it’s more standard but I’m not profiling. What am I doing wrong?
Hi Squib, Thanks for the feedback/questions. I don't recall which machine you have. Stock flow rates: With no flow control installed are ~8g/s on vibration pump machines and ~11g/s on rotary pump machines. I've used flow control on a variety of machines with both pump types and found 1.25 turns open of the flow control gives the stock flow rate regardless of pump type. I always dial-in my grind with the flow control open 1.25 turns. Changing grind size: Once you've dialed in grind at stock flow rate (valve open 1.25 turns) you can then modify grind size if desired. I don't do that very often. Changing grind size would be based on tasting/experimentation. Hard to give guidelines for making changes in grind size due to number of variables involved. One basic thing I can say: if doing a very long low flow pre-infusion like a Slayer style shot you typically grind finer for that. Things like filter basket play a role in ability to grind finer. Measuring flow rates: Pre-infusion chamber has a minor effect on measurements. It's insignificant IMO and averages out over duration of the measurement period. If comparing flow rates with and without flow control any effect of pre-infusion chamber exists in both measurements. Spring: I have not changed the stock spring. I understand in some markets a replacement spring is provided. I have had no problems using the stock spring. Working a long low flow pre-infusion: I often use with relatively fresh from roast, lighter roasted specialty coffees. The group mounted pressure gauge helps a lot with adjusting flow when doing these. At start allow pressure to rise to ~2bar on the gauge and then use the flow control to keep it there for about 15 seconds. Lots of variables involved like coffee type, dose weight and filter basket but I'm looking to produce first drip at about 15 seconds. Then gently increase flow to show 6-8 bar on the gauge and hold it there for the remainder of the extraction. As the extraction progresses you may need to close the flow off a bit to keep a constant pressure as solids are removed from the coffee puck. Running with flow control wide open: I have never run wide open - unrestricted flow rates reach near 30g/s on rotary pump machines. No reason to ever go that high. You'll get that flow rate at ~2 turns open. I only have one profile, a lever style extraction which uses anything more than 1.25 turns open. That lever profile is: 1 turn open to start for less than 5 seconds. Then close flow for 5 seconds. Then quickly to 1.5 turns and hold for 3-5 seconds. Then adjust flow to see a continuous ramp down of pressure on the group gauge to finish the shot. This profile typically produces a more syrupy and sweeter shot from classic Italian style bean blends on the darker side of medium roast. I hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and explain more in detail. Our machine is the Mechanika Slim V. Do you think 5.5 g/s stock is too low? I measured the flow at 1.25 turns and get about 7.5 g/s so I think it’s in the ballpark of your measurement. I’ll adjust my grind for 27-30s at 1.25 and see how it goes. BTW, I’ve started drinking organic coffee and I love it!
Hey Marc, I know the flow control valve is available for the Classika but do you think that would be a great upgrade for it, or is that flow control valve more tailored to higher end machines? Thank you, and great video!
Hi Rudy, Flow control a definite upgrade for the Classika - especially if your interested in things like flow profiling very fresh from roast coffees and other techniques mentioned in video. Classika is very solid temp wise as good as higher end machines so every bit as capable. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage That's nice to know and I may upgrade my Classika before selling. Simulating a lever machine pressure profile would dramatically improve results. Really nice machine and all you really need for a classic Italian type design. I just recently purchased a Decent Espresso machine ver. 1.4 and feel it's pretty much game over for those classic Italian machines. They look great and all that but if your seriously looking at experimenting with different ways of pulling espresso then the Decent machine is the only way to go. I'm still in shock as to how fast and quiet this machine is in use and the steaming is out of this world. Have always enjoyed your videos Mark and made many purchases on your opinion.
I sat down to write a question about temp changes during shots w/ veeery looong preinfusion, but that were already asked. Then I'm adding Pt.2 there - what type of machine would keep temp better during those longish shots - HX, single boiler or dueal boiler (assuming they feed brew water through service boiler, so that they differ from SB machines in this aspect)? Of course, there's no rule temp has to be same at end as it is in beginning of extraction.....probably a bit lower temp helps not to extract at the and too much of stuff which spoils taste. And why water in HX would get hotter during long shots - don't they drop off excess water through OPV valve just like SB machines do, back to tank or drip tray? With SB, I guess, temp would depend on a size of boiler - but those E61 nosed SB's have boilers around 0.75L - like ECM Classika, and I hope, potentially also ECM Puristika with built-in flow control. I really wouldn't expect PID to maintain temp on the fly, assuming volume of boiler - I think PID is great to achieve minimal temp swing before shot and more precise recovery after shot, though. Back in my coffee searches I've tried to brew 180ml coffees using larger grind to maintain around 3 bars on a clock on stock 9 bar machine - taste definitely differs from classic americano, but I agree - long slow preinf phase could change things for better as my brews felt lacking in body (at least I expected more heft).
Hi E 42, Thanks for the comments! Check out video I just posted on using flow control on ECM Synchronika to take the bright bite out of a very fresh from roast Ethipian Yergacheffe. I do 2 bottomless triple shots. One with standard extraction and one with 15 seconds of low flow before main extraction to a 1:2 ratio. It made a big difference: ruclips.net/video/HTaly8c-i_U/видео.html IMO dual boiler will keep temps better during long extraction. There is an offset from boiler temp to group but it's a lower offset than found in HX machines. With single boiler it depends on machine type. The Classika with PID is far better than machine using pressurestat or thermostat which has much larger temps swings depending on where it is in a heating cycle.. Large boiler PID machines do well for temp consistency. With all machines the more thermal mass between boiler and coffee like big grouphead or heated group like Bezzera BZ group helps to keep things more consistent. Hope that helps! Marc
I’m very interested in the flow control update but as someone with basic physics knowledge I do have some concerns. A pressure building pump wears by building pressure. The harder you make it work (longer runtime or more back pressure, ie both in case of the flow control upgrade), the faster it will wear. That you haven’t had any problems yet doesn’t mean pumps will die sooner. Regarding the HX question. Basic thermodynamics state that if a mass is exposed to a heat source longer, the mass will absorb more heat. As an HX machine works on a simple offset, it will not compensate for the lower flow. Dual boiler machines with more sturdy rotation pumps will be more suited Imho. No temperature problems because of the dedicated brewing water circuit and longer longevity because of the better quality pump.
Hi Robin, Thank you for the very interesting comments. No question a rotary pump dual boiler machine has higher reliability. In regards to back pressure wearing pumps faster I suppose that is a possibility but I do not think it should be of major concern. Most machines have an OPV valve which regulates pressure in the brewing circuit by bypassing water when a set pressure is reached. OPVs are usually set to 9-10 bar which is well below the rated working pressure of machine pumps. No doubt temp control is easier in dual boiler than HX machine. When using flow on an HX machine one may need to adjust boiler temp down a bit to compensate for longer contact time in the HX section. But I'm not certain that's the case. There will also be longer contact time outside the boiler with the mass of the E61 group etc modifying brew water temp. Marc
Hi Marc, Thanks for taking the time to provide a structured answer! I forgot about the OPV valve. This indeed negates the back pressure issue. Regarding the HX issue, I guess adding flow control to an already ‘unstable thermal circuit’ will not worsen it much as it’s already a circuit which needs compensation one or the other way. I’m still gonna hold off on the upgrade. Going from 25-30 seconds to for instance 40 seconds runtime on the pump still is an increase of about 30 percent which means that my pump life will be shortened by the same amount. When in my lifetime I upgrade to a vibration pump I’m guessing flow control/pressure profiling will be more a thing then now. Have a good one!
Hi Juice, If ending with low flow rate overall pressure may be lower when extraction is stopped resulting in a less efficient blow out of excess brew water on top of puck. Marc
I don't agree that you don't need a cooling flush on a PID HX: even if you control the boiler with a pid instead of a pstat the brew temp will still depend on the amount of time that the water exchanged heat. So if you leave it inside the boiler for 30 minutes the first drip of water will be as hot as the boiler itself (which has to be at steaming temperature). Also if you obstruct the flow on an HX then the water will be way hotter: IMHO flow control is better suited to single boilers or dual boiler rather than HX. Can you prove me wrong?
Hi NB, The PID HX machines I use all have (a couple exceptions like Bezzeras with a PID controlled electrically heated group) an E61 group. The E61 group constantly circulates water out from the HX section of the boiler and gives up heat to the group and surrounding air. It's like a heat sink. The circulation is a thermosiphon driven by convection so when machine is heated the flow out to the group and back is constant. With that, water within the HX section of the boiler maintains a lower temperature than water in the steam generating section of the boiler. Machine designer use flow restrictors in the thermosiphon loop to control the flow rate and get the temps right. The same thing happens in single and dual boiler machines with E61 groups and those machines use a boiler offset in the PID as the boiler is always running hotter than the brew temp delivered at the group. If not familiar with how the E61 thermosiphon operates here's a video with cutaway models of different boiler types which shows operation in HX and dual boiler machines: ruclips.net/video/OUywoRs4meY/видео.html Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I Marc, thanks for your reply. Restrictions can indeed be made to restrict the thermosiphon flow enough to get the temps right when the machine is idle. But with or without a PID the HX will always deliver colder water whenever the flow increases: so if your machine is costantly brewing the temperature will be lower than while idling. You can get the flow (and thus the temps) right under one circumstance, but not both! Can you please link me something where an E61 manufacturer explicitly says that no flushing is ever needed for their HX machines?
Why do all videos from this channel always seem like infomercials? I'm sorry, but anytime I watch a video, it just reminds me of those shady sales people that would say anything just to sell their product. It's just so obvious that the objective is to sell sell sell, instead of really caring about informing the audience.
Hi John, Thanks for sharing your opinion. I however strongly disagree! I especially disagree with your statement that it's obvious the objective is to sell instead of caring about informing our audience. We have produced 1,300+ videos over the last 9 years or so. Many feature products with demonstrations of capabilities and review of features. Based on viewer comments I believe the vast majority of our audience appreciates these videos. I care a lot about the audience! I monitor comments and generally respond within one business day to all. Your comment included. And it doesn't matter where a commentor is asking from. We only do business in the US but get questions from all over the world. Even though these people will likely never be a customer if they have a specific question in regards to a product I do my best to give detailed answers and/or advice. Beyond product videos we have 100's of How To videos. These cover specific techniques with regards to coffee and espresso. Also in that category are videos on how to repair equipment 100's of those as well. Here's one example we did awhile back: ruclips.net/video/NV_TppITQZI/видео.html That video has 750K views, over 1K likes and 670+ comments. It's saved people a ton of money in repairs over the years. And to this day I still respond to all the "thank you's" we get in the comments. For more examples check out our support wiki for a variety of videos covering how to use specific machines, do repairs and maintenance: wiki.wholelattelove.com/Main_Page Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Totally agree Marc. You not only educate customers but also general public, and you are very kind resolving doubts from people that is not currently your target. At the end you have also the responsibility of running a business not a school, so a little of sales involved is not only accessory, is a necessity for your company and it's well respected by us.
Sorry John, you have rocks in your head. These guys give such good info, on servicing your own machine and other topics. Just have as look at the Profitec Pro 700 boiler removal video. Some people just cannot be pleased.
Good job boys, thank you. I guess this was live. Tension was in the air. 😀
Hi i, Thanks for the comment - yes, very live!
Marc
What is the normal flow rate of an e61 with a rotary pump without flow control?
Hi m, Stock flow rate on rotary pump ECM and Profitec machines is ~10g/sec. With FC installed you'd open 1.25 turns to get the stock flow rate.
@@Wholelattelovepage thx for the Information. I use Bezzera Duo. 1/4 open is 5g/s , 1/2 open ist 8,2 g/s , 3/4 open is 10,1 g/s and full open is 13,4 g/s. The Problem is, when I open 1/2 the pressure is alway 10 Bar and more and the brew is not tasty.
@@mar1kus You're welcome. Yes, flow rates are different on Bezzera machines. If grind is fine enough you will reach max pressure eventually at even a 1/4 turn open. You can increase the bypass on rotary pump to reduce max pressure if desired. Another tactic is to close down the flow control some to reduce pressure as the shot progresses.
Very informative video. I just installed it on my plumbed-in Profitec Pro700 but water is still flowing in the OFF position. I also installed the included lower spring. Thanks.
Hey Benj, Thanks for the comment. You need to loosen that set screw and raise up the collar to give clearance so the valve can fully close.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc! Turns out i needed to nudge the knob a bit more to engage to pin. Everything's good now.
Thanks for this video I'm definitely going to get one of these for my Quick Mill QM67
Hi Jon, you are welcome. Here's some more info on using flow with profile graphs and more: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
Hey Mark, I installed the ECM flow control on my Synchronika yesterday. Now with the brew lever fully open, and the flow control completely closed, I still have flow through the brew head. I can't seem to get the flow to stop, even though I have the flow control closed as tight as I can get it. Any thoughts?
Hi LM, sound like the sleeve on the flow control has dropped down preventing you from fully closing. Loosen the black knob on the flow control. That allows the sleeve to slide up on the valve shaft. While loosened, close the valve. Then use a credit card or similar to maintain a gap between the bottom of the sleeve and base of the flow control. While in that position, tighten the black knob. Here's a video showing how to do that. The flow control part is out of the machine in the video but it can be adjusted when installed: ruclips.net/video/ELIwD40tsrs/видео.html
Hope that helps!
That Dalla Corte is awesome.
speaking about flow control and pressure profiles how about the Crem One 2B R-LFPP?
Sorry for the newbie question. You probably explained it already but if so it was lost on me. If I don’t want to jump right into flow control just yet, in what position should I leave the knob? Just got my Pathfinder with flow control yesterday and I LOVE it! Tad bit intimidated.
Hey 80's, Sorry for the delayed response - appreciate your patience. Don't be intimidated! Yes you can just leave the flow alone. What you're looking for to get the stock rate like you had no FC device is 7-8 grams per second of water out of the group. So without a portfilter in place run the machine into a measuring cup for 20 seconds. Then divide the number of milliliters you got in the cup by 20 to get the flow rate in grams per second. 1ml = 1g of weight. So if you had 140ml come out in 20 seconds that would be a flow rate of 7g/sec. You may need to try various valve positions to zero in on were you get that 7-8g/s of flow.
@@Wholelattelovepage
Excellent! Yep! Getting between 7 and 8g per second. Thanks again!! :)
the flow kit control kit that I just recieved (today funnily enough) for the ECM Synchronika came with a different, stronger spring, whats the reason for this.
That's to disable the E61 "build in" preinfusion. With the flow control kit you have the full control of the flow (and therefore pressure) so you don't want to have interference with the preinfusion spring.
@@fourstroke1000 thanks, that makes sense now,
Actually thinking about adding a flow control for our ECM Syncronika. But you made one comment regarding steam pressure. My wife drinks latte’s. We have the presure set at 265 which has been fine. You mention the higher the better. I noticed you were at 271. Would that make much of a difference? Thanks!!
Hi, Actual max steam setting is 270F. Going higher with temp gives more steam pressure/power. Milk will steam faster and roll more vigorously. If you've got the skill to use, it does make a difference!
Hey Marc! Digging my Profitec 400 w/ flow control recently purchased from WLL, but the pressure dial on the brew group doesn't function. The flow control itself works perfectly and produces fine shot. That gauge on the brew group isn't super critical but still a good tool to know when you're at full 8 bar pressure. Thanks!
EDIT: Just noticed the Customer Service message system on the website; submitted the issue through that.
Hey greg, Congrats on your new machine and thanks for your patronage! The gauge issue should be easy to resolve and CS ticket system is the way to start the process.
Marc
Great video intro to flow control! Do you know if Rocket Espresso is going to migrate towards flow control on their R58?
Hi Beau, Thanks for the question. I think it's unlikely. Rocket Espresso is somewhat committed to pressure profiling with domestic machines like their R Nine One. Pressure profiling and flow control are similar in some respects. At end of day I believe flow profiling gives more control. But there are arguments both ways.
Marc
My flow control still let's a trickle of water through when in the closed position and the lever activated. Is this normal? It's on an ECM Synchronika
Hi Mark, Well, it's not exactly normal but easy to correct. Sounds like the collar which holds your flow control knob has dropped down a bit preventing the valve from closing all the way. If you loosen the black knob you can adjust the up down position of the collar so it does not bottom out and prevent full closure of the valve. Leave a gap of about a credit card's width below the collar with the valve fully closed then tighten the knob so the collar does not slip down.
Marc
hey WLL will the FCV choke up the 3 way solenoid valve when you close the FCV to end the shot? or will it work the same as closing by lifting the lever?
Hi DY, It will have an affect. If you end an extraction with the valve closed pressure will bleed off from with the PF. If ended closed there wasn't much there anyway. Also if you end closed is a good idea to do a short flush after the PF is off to recharge the group with water.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc! Thanks for you insights! thats a good to know to have a short flush after the shot. if thats the case it will not be a good idea to have the FCV closed while having the machine on stand by/heating up, as i believe it will affect the thermosiphon of the group head to regulate temp right?
Hi, can the flow control be fitted to a machine I already own as an after market option?
Hi Don, If it's a machine with E61 group yes you can. Retailers have different policies. At this time we are limiting sales to those who have purchased an ECM or Profitec machine from us in the past.
Marc
Now using the flow control on a Rocket E61 machine. Amazing! I follow the flow rate with the Acacia brewing app. So cool! I’m really blown away - even with manual control.
Hi Mark, Flow control opens up so many possibilities! Brilliant to use with the Acaia app! Thanks for sharing your experience.
Marc
Thanks Marc. You guys are knocking it out of the park. Happy Holidays
Thank you Marc, .. .. best regards Don Waiheke Island NZ
You’re welcome!
Marc
Why is the pressure 8 bar every time on the ECM and not 9? Does the FC Valve effect the brew pressure? I thought 9bar was a standard for espresso?
Hi Nick, Thanks for the question. I'm not at all concerned about the 8bar. We could have adjusted the OPV up to produce 9 but it's not a big deal. IMO at anything over 6 bar flow rate is more important than pressure. FC does not affect pressure within the machine but does affect pressure within the group.
Marc
Does the flow control device affect the pump??
Hi MA, Thanks for the question. The FCD does not affect the pump. It controls flow only with no adverse affects on the pump.
Marc
Great job guys. What is the purpose of the extra spring supplied sometimes with a flow contol valve. Does a Synchronika require one?
Hi Mike, Thanks for the comment. The spring is not required. But can be installed if desired. The extra spring is a little stiffer than stock to prevent water from filling the pre-brew chamber in the group at the start of an extraction. We have this video on how to install if desired: ruclips.net/video/WLHKQt06YcI/видео.html
Marc
Hi Mark. Been a big fan of your channel. I bought a flow control device and just want to ask for advice. is it normal for the knob with the stem to get quite warm and also notice that it takes some effort to turn the flow device when machine is up to temperature. Worried about forcing the knob as it might damage things imside. This is in stark contrast when the machine is cold. Where i can do full 2 turn with ease. Thanks Mark and hope to hear some feedback and advice.
Hey JO C, Thanks for the comment and question. It is normal for the knob to get warm. I've used many dozens of Profitec, ECM and Quick Mill machines with flow control installed and never run into one which was difficult to turn. As it's a relatively simple device which turns a robust needle valve to modify flow I doubt there's any risk of damage from forcing. In your shoes I'd turn the valve all the way open and lubricate the exposed shaft with a food safe grease - petroleum jelly like Vaseline works for that. With the machine warm turn the valve full open full closed repeatedly to work in the lubricant and that might loosen it up. Outside chance there could be a manufacturing anomaly with your FCD causing issues. In that case I'd get it replaced.
And for more fun with flow check this link with graphs of 5 flow profiles for a variety of brewing situations and more info on getting the best results: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Hope that helps!
Marc
Is the pressure profiling better than flow control? Or are they the same?
Hi K, They are related but not the same. IMO flow through the coffee is more important than pressure. It's the flow which removes solids into the cup. With pressure profiling as the puck erodes during an extraction the same pressure will produce a higher flow rate through the coffee.
Marc
Hi Marc,
I just purchased a Pro 700 FCD. I love the flexibility the FCD brings. I'm curious what the standard flow rate is on the 700 non-FCD model. I'm trying to baseline/dial in and I feel is important to know that standard flow rate to get there. Sorry if I missed this somewhere.
Hi JS, No need to be sorry. Stock flow rate on the Pro 700 is ~11g/sec. Rate is same for plumbed or reservoir feed. Stock flow rate on The Pro 500 with vibration pump is 8g/s. It is important to know stock flow rate and there's no reason to ever run the flow wide open.
Marc
Thanks Marc! Huge help as always!
This I assume can’t help with pressure profiling? Or can it?
Hi DD, It sure can! One can follow pressure on the coffee puck using the group mounted pressure gauge and adjust as desired using flow control.
Marc
Hoping WLL will eventually test/post a comment on how many grams of water the stock ECM Synchronika (non flow control unit) puts out in 10 sec. so you know how to determine or calibrate where to set the flow control handle, since it's hard to know the proper position. For instance, my flow control handle shut off position is not the same position as the one in the demo and it's hard to know the proper originating position to match a non modified ECM unit out of the box, etc. Thanks WLL!
Hi RH, Thanks for the question. Flow from a stock E61 and that from one with the FCD will be the same when the FCD is wide open which is ~1.5 revolutions from fully closed. Thinks it's about 11g/sec. Here's my video on how to determine flow rates at various valve positions: ruclips.net/video/P1Vz7aa_KtI/видео.html
FYI you can move the handle to stop at a different position when fully closed.
Marc
Hey! I really enjoy your videos. A quick question: I also have the ECM Synchronika. I felt that my Rotary pump is getting a bit noisier than it used to be. The brew pressure went to almost 10 bar. I adjusted to 9 bar. So now, while pulling a shot it shows 9 bar and 8 bar at the flow control reading. However, in your video your ECM shows 8 bar. Why is that the case?
Hi Martin, Thanks for the kind comment and question. Not unusual for pump sound to change. A few reasons it might. Could be an internal part like a pipe etc. is making contact with something and changing the tone. Not sure where you purchased your machine. On Synchronikas we ship there are to wing nuts under the machine which hold down the pump for shipping. These should be removed when machine is setup. Leaving them on will not hurt anything but can cause excess noise. A surprising number of our customers miss the instructions to remove those.
I'm assuming you adjusted pump pressure with a backflush disc and using the reading on the machine's brew pressure gauge. When using flow control the machine's pressure gauge will almost always read the pressure set by the bypass of the rotary pump and the reading will in most cases be slightly lower on the group mounted pressure gauge. The setting of the flow control will cause differences in pressure on the group gauge vs. the machine gauge. Grind size has an effect on that as well. During an extraction you will generally see the group pressure gauge drop a bit as solids are removed from the puck if the flow rate stays the same.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Marc. I finally have the ECM FC and wanted to give some feedback and ask questions.
Firstly, The unit only comes with fitting instruction. No how to use at all, no flow profiles nothing. That is very disappointing. WLL videos seem to be the only resource available on how to use it to get going. Thank you.
My FC came with a heavy-duty spring for the lower E61 valve. I found it has very poor discharge at the end of shot and have put back the original spring. Q, What is this spring about and should I put it back in?
With the FC fitted, I’m having a hard time to dial in new beans. In the video, 4:35, you adjusted to full flow, just as if no flow fitted. For me at full open the flow is way to fast. I ended up refitting my original valve to see what standard flow was 5.5gm/s, (which is ¾ turns with FC fitted) as I had no idea my benchmark without FC fitted. Q, When dialing in new beans, do we set the valve wide open or set to standard flow rate without the FC fitted? Should we grind finer with the FC? I’m not sure if you recommended to check the standard flow rate before fitting the FC?
As advised, I have checked the machine flow rates by measuring the weight at different turns of the FC. Q Doesn’t the pre-infusion chamber have an effect, so when you stop and start each shot it actually effects the flow at the start of your measurement? Maybe better to leave pump running for the test and have a few cups lined up..?
When you guys adjust the flow, it’s methodical, relaxed and takes for ever. For me, it is crazy! If I attempt a long pre infusion, at some point a channel must appear because the liquid just gushes out. If I set the flow to ¾ and keep it there, it’s more standard but I’m not profiling. What am I doing wrong?
Hi Squib, Thanks for the feedback/questions. I don't recall which machine you have.
Stock flow rates:
With no flow control installed are ~8g/s on vibration pump machines and ~11g/s on rotary pump machines. I've used flow control on a variety of machines with both pump types and found 1.25 turns open of the flow control gives the stock flow rate regardless of pump type. I always dial-in my grind with the flow control open 1.25 turns.
Changing grind size:
Once you've dialed in grind at stock flow rate (valve open 1.25 turns) you can then modify grind size if desired. I don't do that very often. Changing grind size would be based on tasting/experimentation. Hard to give guidelines for making changes in grind size due to number of variables involved. One basic thing I can say: if doing a very long low flow pre-infusion like a Slayer style shot you typically grind finer for that. Things like filter basket play a role in ability to grind finer.
Measuring flow rates:
Pre-infusion chamber has a minor effect on measurements. It's insignificant IMO and averages out over duration of the measurement period. If comparing flow rates with and without flow control any effect of pre-infusion chamber exists in both measurements.
Spring:
I have not changed the stock spring. I understand in some markets a replacement spring is provided. I have had no problems using the stock spring.
Working a long low flow pre-infusion:
I often use with relatively fresh from roast, lighter roasted specialty coffees. The group mounted pressure gauge helps a lot with adjusting flow when doing these. At start allow pressure to rise to ~2bar on the gauge and then use the flow control to keep it there for about 15 seconds. Lots of variables involved like coffee type, dose weight and filter basket but I'm looking to produce first drip at about 15 seconds. Then gently increase flow to show 6-8 bar on the gauge and hold it there for the remainder of the extraction. As the extraction progresses you may need to close the flow off a bit to keep a constant pressure as solids are removed from the coffee puck.
Running with flow control wide open:
I have never run wide open - unrestricted flow rates reach near 30g/s on rotary pump machines. No reason to ever go that high. You'll get that flow rate at ~2 turns open. I only have one profile, a lever style extraction which uses anything more than 1.25 turns open. That lever profile is: 1 turn open to start for less than 5 seconds. Then close flow for 5 seconds. Then quickly to 1.5 turns and hold for 3-5 seconds. Then adjust flow to see a continuous ramp down of pressure on the group gauge to finish the shot. This profile typically produces a more syrupy and sweeter shot from classic Italian style bean blends on the darker side of medium roast.
I hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and explain more in detail. Our machine is the Mechanika Slim V. Do you think 5.5 g/s stock is too low? I measured the flow at 1.25 turns and get about 7.5 g/s so I think it’s in the ballpark of your measurement. I’ll adjust my grind for 27-30s at 1.25 and see how it goes. BTW, I’ve started drinking organic coffee and I love it!
What about the new Lelit Bianca? Seems unbeatable with all these features at this price. Even if i love Rocket, i can’t keep out of the equation Lelit
same thought here.. kind hard to decide even when Rocket machines are prettier in my opinion that the Bianca.
Hey Marc,
I know the flow control valve is available for the Classika but do you think that would be a great upgrade for it, or is that flow control valve more tailored to higher end machines? Thank you, and great video!
Hi Rudy, Flow control a definite upgrade for the Classika - especially if your interested in things like flow profiling very fresh from roast coffees and other techniques mentioned in video. Classika is very solid temp wise as good as higher end machines so every bit as capable.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage That's nice to know and I may upgrade my Classika before selling. Simulating a lever machine pressure profile would dramatically improve results. Really nice machine and all you really need for a classic Italian type design.
I just recently purchased a Decent Espresso machine ver. 1.4 and feel it's pretty much game over for those classic Italian machines. They look great and all that but if your seriously looking at experimenting with different ways of pulling espresso then the Decent machine is the only way to go.
I'm still in shock as to how fast and quiet this machine is in use and the steaming is out of this world.
Have always enjoyed your videos Mark and made many purchases on your opinion.
I sat down to write a question about temp changes during shots w/ veeery looong preinfusion, but that were already asked. Then I'm adding Pt.2 there - what type of machine would keep temp better during those longish shots - HX, single boiler or dueal boiler (assuming they feed brew water through service boiler, so that they differ from SB machines in this aspect)? Of course, there's no rule temp has to be same at end as it is in beginning of extraction.....probably a bit lower temp helps not to extract at the and too much of stuff which spoils taste.
And why water in HX would get hotter during long shots - don't they drop off excess water through OPV valve just like SB machines do, back to tank or drip tray? With SB, I guess, temp would depend on a size of boiler - but those E61 nosed SB's have boilers around 0.75L - like ECM Classika, and I hope, potentially also ECM Puristika with built-in flow control. I really wouldn't expect PID to maintain temp on the fly, assuming volume of boiler - I think PID is great to achieve minimal temp swing before shot and more precise recovery after shot, though.
Back in my coffee searches I've tried to brew 180ml coffees using larger grind to maintain around 3 bars on a clock on stock 9 bar machine - taste definitely differs from classic americano, but I agree - long slow preinf phase could change things for better as my brews felt lacking in body (at least I expected more heft).
Hi E 42, Thanks for the comments! Check out video I just posted on using flow control on ECM Synchronika to take the bright bite out of a very fresh from roast Ethipian Yergacheffe. I do 2 bottomless triple shots. One with standard extraction and one with 15 seconds of low flow before main extraction to a 1:2 ratio. It made a big difference: ruclips.net/video/HTaly8c-i_U/видео.html
IMO dual boiler will keep temps better during long extraction. There is an offset from boiler temp to group but it's a lower offset than found in HX machines. With single boiler it depends on machine type. The Classika with PID is far better than machine using pressurestat or thermostat which has much larger temps swings depending on where it is in a heating cycle.. Large boiler PID machines do well for temp consistency. With all machines the more thermal mass between boiler and coffee like big grouphead or heated group like Bezzera BZ group helps to keep things more consistent. Hope that helps!
Marc
I’m very interested in the flow control update but as someone with basic physics knowledge I do have some concerns.
A pressure building pump wears by building pressure. The harder you make it work (longer runtime or more back pressure, ie both in case of the flow control upgrade), the faster it will wear. That you haven’t had any problems yet doesn’t mean pumps will die sooner.
Regarding the HX question. Basic thermodynamics state that if a mass is exposed to a heat source longer, the mass will absorb more heat. As an HX machine works on a simple offset, it will not compensate for the lower flow.
Dual boiler machines with more sturdy rotation pumps will be more suited Imho. No temperature problems because of the dedicated brewing water circuit and longer longevity because of the better quality pump.
Hi Robin, Thank you for the very interesting comments. No question a rotary pump dual boiler machine has higher reliability. In regards to back pressure wearing pumps faster I suppose that is a possibility but I do not think it should be of major concern. Most machines have an OPV valve which regulates pressure in the brewing circuit by bypassing water when a set pressure is reached. OPVs are usually set to 9-10 bar which is well below the rated working pressure of machine pumps.
No doubt temp control is easier in dual boiler than HX machine. When using flow on an HX machine one may need to adjust boiler temp down a bit to compensate for longer contact time in the HX section. But I'm not certain that's the case. There will also be longer contact time outside the boiler with the mass of the E61 group etc modifying brew water temp.
Marc
Hi Marc,
Thanks for taking the time to provide a structured answer!
I forgot about the OPV valve. This indeed negates the back pressure issue.
Regarding the HX issue, I guess adding flow control to an already ‘unstable thermal circuit’ will not worsen it much as it’s already a circuit which needs compensation one or the other way.
I’m still gonna hold off on the upgrade. Going from 25-30 seconds to for instance 40 seconds runtime on the pump still is an increase of about 30 percent which means that my pump life will be shortened by the same amount.
When in my lifetime I upgrade to a vibration pump I’m guessing flow control/pressure profiling will be more a thing then now.
Have a good one!
Has anyone Noticed that after Flow profiling, that the pucks seem "soupy" and loose?
Hi Juice, If ending with low flow rate overall pressure may be lower when extraction is stopped resulting in a less efficient blow out of excess brew water on top of puck.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage "Coach Marc!"
Thanks again
These guys’ minds are going to explode when they hear about Decent Espresso.
Calvin Rey heard about it a long time ago with no explosions
I don't agree that you don't need a cooling flush on a PID HX: even if you control the boiler with a pid instead of a pstat the brew temp will still depend on the amount of time that the water exchanged heat. So if you leave it inside the boiler for 30 minutes the first drip of water will be as hot as the boiler itself (which has to be at steaming temperature). Also if you obstruct the flow on an HX then the water will be way hotter: IMHO flow control is better suited to single boilers or dual boiler rather than HX. Can you prove me wrong?
Hi NB, The PID HX machines I use all have (a couple exceptions like Bezzeras with a PID controlled electrically heated group) an E61 group. The E61 group constantly circulates water out from the HX section of the boiler and gives up heat to the group and surrounding air. It's like a heat sink. The circulation is a thermosiphon driven by convection so when machine is heated the flow out to the group and back is constant. With that, water within the HX section of the boiler maintains a lower temperature than water in the steam generating section of the boiler. Machine designer use flow restrictors in the thermosiphon loop to control the flow rate and get the temps right. The same thing happens in single and dual boiler machines with E61 groups and those machines use a boiler offset in the PID as the boiler is always running hotter than the brew temp delivered at the group. If not familiar with how the E61 thermosiphon operates here's a video with cutaway models of different boiler types which shows operation in HX and dual boiler machines: ruclips.net/video/OUywoRs4meY/видео.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I Marc, thanks for your reply. Restrictions can indeed be made to restrict the thermosiphon flow enough to get the temps right when the machine is idle. But with or without a PID the HX will always deliver colder water whenever the flow increases: so if your machine is costantly brewing the temperature will be lower than while idling. You can get the flow (and thus the temps) right under one circumstance, but not both! Can you please link me something where an E61 manufacturer explicitly says that no flushing is ever needed for their HX machines?
Why do all videos from this channel always seem like infomercials? I'm sorry, but anytime I watch a video, it just reminds me of those shady sales people that would say anything just to sell their product.
It's just so obvious that the objective is to sell sell sell, instead of really caring about informing the audience.
Hi John, Thanks for sharing your opinion. I however strongly disagree! I especially disagree with your statement that it's obvious the objective is to sell instead of caring about informing our audience. We have produced 1,300+ videos over the last 9 years or so. Many feature products with demonstrations of capabilities and review of features. Based on viewer comments I believe the vast majority of our audience appreciates these videos. I care a lot about the audience! I monitor comments and generally respond within one business day to all. Your comment included. And it doesn't matter where a commentor is asking from. We only do business in the US but get questions from all over the world. Even though these people will likely never be a customer if they have a specific question in regards to a product I do my best to give detailed answers and/or advice. Beyond product videos we have 100's of How To videos. These cover specific techniques with regards to coffee and espresso. Also in that category are videos on how to repair equipment 100's of those as well. Here's one example we did awhile back: ruclips.net/video/NV_TppITQZI/видео.html That video has 750K views, over 1K likes and 670+ comments. It's saved people a ton of money in repairs over the years. And to this day I still respond to all the "thank you's" we get in the comments. For more examples check out our support wiki for a variety of videos covering how to use specific machines, do repairs and maintenance: wiki.wholelattelove.com/Main_Page
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Totally agree Marc. You not only educate customers but also general public, and you are very kind resolving doubts from people that is not currently your target. At the end you have also the responsibility of running a business not a school, so a little of sales involved is not only accessory, is a necessity for your company and it's well respected by us.
Sorry John, you have rocks in your head. These guys give such good info, on servicing your own machine and other topics. Just have as look at the Profitec Pro 700 boiler removal video. Some people just cannot be pleased.
It's his voice 😂😂. It sounds like the Simpsons, hi, I'm Troy Mcloom 🤣🤣🤣
Best Channel i have ever watched on Espresso education. Highly recommend