If you are "grounded", NOT using headbutts,. upkicks, 12 to 6 elbows, knees, or anything available basically contradicts the more important rule of intelligently defending yourself at all times. The current rule sets give more advantage to wrestlers and grapplers than they really should have. MMA competitions were created to see which fighting styles were the most effective, the current rule sets have now made that impossible to deduce. People who intentionally, or haphazardly ground themselves with sloppy take down attempts, are also "gaming the system" and are demonstrating techniques which in the real world wouldn't end well for them. If they want to be down there so bad, than the strikers should be able to stomp, kick, knee, or elbow any target available. That would make them think twice, It's only fair.
"12-6" elbows are actually legal from the ground. watch the clip of big john on jre talking about the 12-6. it's a straight downward elbow thats illegal. if you're on your back, the movement is technically horizontal, not vertical. absolutely bizarre rule, and is often miscalled.
@@JohnSmith-vw5fd how do you find that funny, you're sick in the head man the last thing handicapped people need is to be pummeled by another human for entertainment purposes
Myerk19 where does the line get crossed if headbutts are introduced though? Imagine a guy on top of another headbutting them, that would be genuinely brutal to see and could seriously injure someone. I disagree that a kick to the head is worse, you see fighters eat kicks to the head, I doubt there are many if any that can withstand a headbutt that connects cleanly. Imagine a scenario where someone is headbutted in the temple, people would end up dead in the cage
Khal Lobo yes anyone can headbutt......headbutts are very close range and there is an automatic risk of knocking yourself out ever time you throw a headbutt. Not to mention you need to expose your neck more than you would if throwing a kick or knee, leaving you more open to submissions.
@@timotejmaresthat’s only because the fights end faster instead of constant punches to the head... that doesn’t mean bare knuckles is safer for the brain lmao
Right. But what’s the difference between taking a roundhouse to the head or a headbutt? Or taking haymakers vs headbutts? Or any other strike? I think that’s the point Joe is making.
@@darylkenny4562also the forehead is one of the strongest bones in the body someone who knows how to headbut and where to headbut wont get injured because no one with half a brain is head butting someone elses head its always the nose
Everyone here thinking Joe's crazy for supporting legal headbutts, but dunno that headbutts don't do anything that elbows and knees already don't. Also, headbutting used to be legal in the older UFC events...
Jibaro Hero yeah but Head Butts can damage both the guy giving and recieving the headbutt you can easily get a concussion i would think it would be cool if head butts were legal but there definitely not safer or even the same as elbows maybe knees depeneding on where it hits but its not damaging both guys
A headbutt does a FUCKING LOT that elbows and knees don't do. An elbow doesn't weigh the same as a bowling bowl and doesn't have your entire body upwards of the knees leveraging it. Never seen anyone die from knees or elbows, I have seen 2 lads killed after being nutted between the eyes
If you watch lethwei fights they usually use headbutts from the clinch at a short distance and they use it to attack the more vulnerable areas of the head, the checks, chin/jaw, and brow line. They also dont throw them in rapid submission. It's a risk move that could have high rewards at the cost of high stakes. They also do more body shots do to the lack of gloves. Every move a lethwei fighter uses is a calculated risk/reward move. They throw an incorrect punch or kick and they could risk braking ligaments or bone. Elbows and knees have been known to dent skulls. The "safest" bet if you want to compete in a combat sport is grappling. You have less risk of injury with grappling techniques than you do with striking techniques.
That’s how I won my first and only highschool fight lmao. Kid kept pushing me, I was the underdog, people crowding around getting ready, so I waited till his hands were down then smashed my forehead into his nose/left cheek. Never have I ever felt as good as I did that entire week. Guy cried too. Good times.
I've done that too. This kid kept pushing me when I he walked past me in the hall so I turned around quick and grabbed him by the back of the head and slammed my head right above his eye. He got a black eye.
I think we have enough of a battle just getting bareknuckle MMA going, without having to worry about headbutt controversy. People are really touchy about double concussions
Bareknuckle would be boring as fuck, with most professionals worried about longevity just trying to out wrestle each other. I’m fine with another organization making it bare-knuckle, as long as we keep to UFC the way it is (relatively safe to ensure athletes can have a long-term careers, hopefully forbid oblique kicks). You’ll see all best fighters will join the UFC, because they don’t want broken facial bones, hands and elbows in every fight. Also, fans would always watch UFC because the fights are far more interesting if fighters don’t have to worry about such things.
Wrong on multiple counts. Bareknuckle _is_ safer. Pancrase disproves how boring it would be. "You’ll see all best fighters will join the UFC, because they don’t want broken facial bones, hands and elbows in every fight." This is just absurd. Elbows are equally likely to break in both cases; it's irrelevant. Hands _already_ break in the UFC, and *commonly* . In bareknuckle MMA, fighters would have to change the way they strike with their hands, obviously. Once fighters see the effectiveness of _palm strikes_ , and realize that they can hit hard _without_ breaking their hands, they'll switch to them. Here are all of Bas Rutten's old Pancrease fights. Watch it. Then imagine modern MMA (without the silly shin guards): ruclips.net/video/LJ917PleHn0/видео.html The only thing that would change in bareknuckle MMA is *LESS broken hands* , and for the same reason Rugby players get less injuries than American football players. Otherwise, same kicks, same knees, same elbows, _more effective grappling, which inherently means less concussions and broken hands_ . The only real change will be that actual punches to the head will be rare, and palm strikes will take precedence.
@@plokijuh5830 Why ban oblique kicks? I haven't heard of a single injury resulting from a oblique kick despite being legal in mma and various kickboxing styles such as savate and muay thai. They're not even that effective. If you're concerned about serious damage to the leg then just ban checking leg kicks as that causes a lot of broken shins to occur in mauy thai and in mma. I'd much rather be oblique kicked than get a leg kick checked.
@@zedek_ despite the extensive use of italics, where is your evidence? Comparing Rugby Union or League to American Football is a poor comparison. Protective gear has its place. If people want to fight bare knuckle then good for them but claiming it’s safer as it would encourage different punches is tenuous.
@@patsysadowski1546 To begin with, no evidence has ever been presented that gloves actually make the sport safer in the first place. My overall position is that, _at best_ , the gloves are irrelevant to fighter safety, and at worst, they enable dangerous tactics. My evidence is the fact that, in the early UFC, some fighters explicitly *chose* to use gloves when they weren't mandated, because it allowed them to punch wildly, and with greater force to more easily knock people out. Joe Rogan himself has touched on this fact in previous podcasts. The protective gear blatantly enables behavior that, in this case, is abusive to the fighter's hands, and abusive to the opponent's head. "Comparing Rugby Union or League to American Football is a poor comparison." No it's not. It's a perfect comparison, because despite the overall similarities, you don't see Rugby players intentionally sprint at each other and seamlessly smash their heads together... because that's a fucking stupid thing to do without a helmet. The lack of protective gear results in the issue of mass TBI being a self-corrective issue, because you either _immediately_ and severely injure yourself... or you stop intentionally ramming your head into things like American Football. Again, it's the perfect example to show how, in two relatively similar, violent sports some tactics are just impossible due to the lack of gear. Early American Football did not see these tactic either. The protective gear blatantly enables dangerous behavior. "If people want to fight bare knuckle then good for them but claiming it’s safer as it would encourage different punches is tenuous." No, it's not. 1) Fighters would either have to punch towards an opponent's head more softly (like how Nate Diaz punches), or they will have to use a different type of strike towards the head; literally resulting in fighters hands being better protected, because otherwise a fighter would absolutely devastate their hands. +1 bareknuckle for safety. 2) Other strikes, such as elbows and kicks obviously remain unaffected. Tie for safety. 3) Grappling is dramatically enhanced by the removal of gloves, because you don't have some poofy material interfering with your grip. Further, the lack of gloves makes it much easier to slip your hands into submissions due to decreased friction. This will result in more submissions, which inherently means less broken hands, and less TBI. A massive +2 for bareknuckle safety. So no, it's not tenuous at all. The incentive structure is dramatically altered _away_ from wild, strong punches to the head. Of course it's still a combat sport and remains high risk overall, but if the question is between which ruleset is safer... it's not really a question at all.
Suppose its more of ruleset thing. If you get used to it and train to counter it its not that scary (supposing you can do headbutt also :D But agreed - it works because its simple-
I watched a Vale Tudo highlights video, and i noticed headbutts from the top position in guard is a reoccurring theme, very effective. Top guy can headbutt the guy on bottom, but bottom guy cannot do it back.
@@DrBarbequeSauce Well, it's sure a b.s. to kick to the head someone who's lying flat. But when somoene is trying to stand up, or trying to catch opponent's leg, why sould the soccer kick be illegal?
Headbutts and knees on the ground are powerful techniques against grapplers. Part of why they are banned I would guess, that and the potential for seriously unappetizing damage. Not being trained to defend against these techniques, be they legal or not, could be a huge problem in a real fight, so they should be prepared for by real, serious fighters.
Joe you have completely opened my mind. I watch this everyday, it’s always something and you have the best take on every subject I just can’t help but watching your stuff!
Headbutts should be legal. If you go to Scotland everyone uses them constantly in fights. Nicknamed the Glasgow kiss even the city of Glasgow was named after it lol
i'd prefer someone trying to headbutt me than head-kick me, been headbutted loads in my life and it's never done to me what i've seen kicks do to people in MMA.
I miss the old rules. No weight classes, no time limits, nothing disallowed but biting and eye-gouging. Much better representation of who was really the best in a one-on-one, empty-hand, who's-the-man fight.
I'm sorry Joe, but on this I disagree. I don't know if there is a correct answer to all this, but headbutts can be devastating not only to your opponent, but yourself long term. When you get in the octagon you are taking risk, but to some extent the host of the fight have to minimize the risk in some ways. And if you say oh well, they are hitting each other in the head with an elbow and what not, that's a fair point hence why I said maybe there isn't a correct answer but then lets just let them use steroids. The point is, where do we draw the line and why there and not somewhere else? If they allow headbutts will punch drunk/CTE cases rise in MMA? If not, then maybe they should be legal. I'm pretty open to letting a person harm themselves if they fully know the risks, but that doesn't mean we can't put in some protections, plus the company has to think about how it will look later. Look at what the NFL is going through with CTE.
No they shouldn't. Nobody wants to see brain injuries in fighters ruin their post-fight lives.....EDIT: also, just seen Rogan say GSPs talk about aliens was due to brain trauma. How could that opinion coexist with the opinion in this video. Come on.
@@Alvah707 yeahhh if you're gonna join a sport where youre guaranteed to get punched in the face if you get stopped by a broken nose you probably shouldn't be in the ring.
for someone who is such a big proponent on CTE and the seriousness of it, Joe sure doesn't hesitate to advocate for the largest CTE / brain trauma inducing methods of fighting- Knees to the head, headbutts, bare knuckles. Joe is an enigma.
*Flahsy Paws* you are missing the fact a pro fighter will have around 36 fights in professional MMA. By the end of that carreer he will have brain trauma. Just from punches mind you. With headbuts is just a matter of time for when someone does it wrong and end pu dying on the cage. No matter what you think to some people all the need is a motive to put MMA back to illegal status. Also this might be the reason for a huge loss of revenue because MMA promoters will be seen as barbarian exploiting fighters at all cost. It is just not worth the effort.
khrom ... you think bare knuckles contribute to CTE? Or knees? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the condition. Just look at boxing or football. Repeated blows. That's the culprit. Not big, scary knuckles and knees. You could argue that they actually make mma safer than other sports since knocking a guy out cold ends the fight and saves him from more punishment than his brain can take before it has time to heal. Obviously it's still a serious risk in any sport where head trauma occurs. It's unavoidable, but these techniques you refer to in no way increase the likelihood.
Andrew N multiple knees to the head of a grounded opponent has substantially more effect than hands with padded gloves. The same goes with elbows. This is common sense. What I am saying his you are much more likely to be concussed and knocked out front knees than normal hooks, and when a fighter is subject to knees every fight in conjunction with punches, they exponentially more susceptible to multiple concussions and brain damage. This is not hard to understand.
Lethwei is the only combat sport that allows headbutts as far as I know. Check it out, Lethwei and Dave Leduc of Nomad Lethwei. Its like Muay Thai, only with no gloves just wraps, no judge decision and one knockout revive. If both opponents stand at the end of the match, its a draw. Only way to win is to beat down an opponent until they no longer stand. Brutal sport. Oh, and the only full contact sport where you'll see a flying headbutt.
Headbutting would make things more interesting, seeing how people would use it would be cool!
6 лет назад
I'm torn on headbutts being legal - I want them to be legal - but on the otherhand I tend to think that it makes a better sport out of mma if some things are not allowed - such as headbutts/ eyegouges/ ball kicks/ etc.
Lethwei would probably replace Muay Thai. I'm not saying Gyms will start teaching Lethwei, but they'll teach a flavor of Muay Thai with Headbutts. Lethwei with less steps.
Pat Miletich: "You know I've been watching your show for a long time.. you're a contrarian thinker and I love it, and you've prompted a lot of people to think differently, right?" Joe Rogan: "Uhh.. maybe...?" *
The old school rule they need to bring back is kicking downed opponents, maybe N to S elbows- something to give more back to strikers. At the moment the rules are way in the favour of grapplers- and without headbutts/biting and striking downed opponents that is too far from the reality of a real fight for me. I would go much further, time limit when the fight goes to ground to achieve submission or ground and pound then your stood up. Less favour from judges for going to ground in the first place. Its the only way to go if they want to grow the sport.
headbutts would def change the mma game from what it is now. i agree, if you can smash someones head with a fist, kick or an elbow than why not a headbutt????
I think the reason CTE isn’t as prevalent in mma as is boxing and football is cause a lot less of those sting hits that don’t knock you out. Headbutts would change that completely. Cool an elbow would do that but only to one fighter.
Also, kicks (or at least KNEES) to a downed opponent's head should be LEGAL! Remember PRIDE? In Japan, wrestlers had a hard time spamming with takedown, because they end in a sprawl, the defender could smash their heads with knees. I can point out at least 5 big KOs that came like that in PRIDE era. Removing the knees in this position takes a lot of stand-up fighters to battle wrestlers and to finish fights. Kicking a downed opponent's' head should be legal - yes, it might not look pretty to some, but it is a legit move in a fight and again it takes away from ferocious fighters like Shogun and Wanderlei. Most fighters who saw big success in PRIDE never saw it in the UFC, and IMO it is for the different (more passive) ruleset, including boxing round scoring etc.
Headbutting should continued to be an illegal move. It can literally kill someone and at the very least, induce mental health problems. I understand that punches, kicks, elbows, knees and even persistent partial oxygen deprivation from choke-holds can cause the same result, but your head is a literal weapon that can kill both fighters. Its a brutal sport, but you want to avoid serious harm or the risk of fatalities as much as possible. If two people were to headbutt each other at the same time I would bet on my medical expertise that the accumulated force would highly likely kill both fighters there and then in the ring or at the very least, would not give a fighter chance to seek medical treatment/surgery intervention. I also have to mention the fact that there is a reason why headbutts are classed as weapons in assault charges, due to the deadly force a headbutt can project. A verdict can go from assault to GBH with the use of a headbutt. In a practical sense, your legs generate the most force, however legs can be partially blocked, less accurate and the radius of impact can be a lot more distributed across the head. It still remains dangerous of course, but a headbutt will be a heavily condensed centrepoint of contact, inabling any distribution of force to spread throught the skull, and instead has a higher likelihood of penetrating through the skull. I expected Joe to know better than this, but it has been some years since this video, so hopefully he has changed his mind.
Everyone in the comments against headbutts clearly hasn't been in a fight. We complain about boxers not being actually fighters because they use a narrow set of rules, but don't want the UFC to incorporate a major fighting weapon. "Boxers can only keep their hands high because they don't need to worry about takedowns" Well "UFC fighters can only close the distance and control their opponents hands and know that they're safe" Headbutts should 100% be in MMA.
![Kodak Black - Catch Fire [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A4ch-olIuZo/mqdefault.jpg)
If headbutting becomes legal in mma expect to see a lot more Scottish fighters
Blair Johnston actually tho
And Italian
Glasgow kiss
@@JP-xn3gf proud to be scottish 🏴
The Glasgow Kiss
Lmfao if head butts were legal imagine walking into the gym and seeing people smashing their head against heavy bags
Bart Simpson lmao underrated comment
A
Look up Dave LeDuc
Doesn’t Ferguson already do that?
Suddenly listening to agustin burns red become conditiong training lol.
If leg kicks work... Why not leg headbutts?
-Ben Askren
underrated
KNEE*
We'll say......kneebutts
@@natekelly770 fun fact cm punk has more takedowns in the ufc than all American wrestler Justin Gaethje
@@whatisthisthing7465 Cuz Gaethje is a gangster.
If you are "grounded", NOT using headbutts,. upkicks, 12 to 6 elbows, knees, or anything available basically contradicts the more important rule of intelligently defending yourself at all times. The current rule sets give more advantage to wrestlers and grapplers than they really should have. MMA competitions were created to see which fighting styles were the most effective, the current rule sets have now made that impossible to deduce. People who intentionally, or haphazardly ground themselves with sloppy take down attempts, are also "gaming the system" and are demonstrating techniques which in the real world wouldn't end well for them. If they want to be down there so bad, than the strikers should be able to stomp, kick, knee, or elbow any target available. That would make them think twice, It's only fair.
Couldn't agree more.
Cheers.
"12-6" elbows are actually legal from the ground. watch the clip of big john on jre talking about the 12-6. it's a straight downward elbow thats illegal. if you're on your back, the movement is technically horizontal, not vertical. absolutely bizarre rule, and is often miscalled.
Id be happy at least with ground knees.
I do like how some fighters just step back and go "get up" and try to bypass some of that garbage
@@misterkefir What are you doing on a Joe Rogan podcast? Don’t you normally watch right wing content?
I think knives should also be legal in UFC
Twain TV guns for show... knives for a pro
They are. Elbows
@@JohnSmith-vw5fd how do you find that funny, you're sick in the head man the last thing handicapped people need is to be pummeled by another human for entertainment purposes
@@denis7738 lol
Pedro Bandito congrats you quoted a song title!!! So cool!!! Wow!!
Joe I used to train and fight but stopped because i got headaches and concussions but want to see heatbutts in mma Rogan
What's the difference between a headbutt and a knee or a kick? The answer is.....getting knee'd or kicked in the head would be worse.
ItsTheOnlyJoe1 must be all the brain trauma
Good Point, Theonlyjoe.....
Myerk19 where does the line get crossed if headbutts are introduced though? Imagine a guy on top of another headbutting them, that would be genuinely brutal to see and could seriously injure someone. I disagree that a kick to the head is worse, you see fighters eat kicks to the head, I doubt there are many if any that can withstand a headbutt that connects cleanly. Imagine a scenario where someone is headbutted in the temple, people would end up dead in the cage
Khal Lobo yes anyone can headbutt......headbutts are very close range and there is an automatic risk of knocking yourself out ever time you throw a headbutt. Not to mention you need to expose your neck more than you would if throwing a kick or knee, leaving you more open to submissions.
Especially if you have a giant rock head like Rogan's.
DAM!!😁
LOL! I can talk, I have a giant pumpkin head too!
😕
Growth hormone thumb head
E set plok ijuh tdsr
Joe “no gloves, headbutts, soccer kicks to the face, on a basketball court” Rogan
That would be true fighting
Murder each other lol ?
Mark “ I borrow other people sense of humour “ Desmond
Yes Joe “couldn’t make sense if I tried” Rogan.
They did that once..
Joe "I quit fighting after a headache" Rogan talking about making headbutts and getting rid of gloves.
No gloves would actualy lead to less brain damage (but much more facial bone fractures)
mihajlo525 there is already bare knuckle boxing it’s brutal check it out
@@EazytheNDAcaptain it is definetly brutal, but chronic brain damage is there much less frequent...
@@timotejmaresthat’s only because the fights end faster instead of constant punches to the head... that doesn’t mean bare knuckles is safer for the brain lmao
@@mvpembiid8052 I'm sorry no matter the reason, if there is less damage, then it's safer
Joe: It’s disgusting the way the NFL has handled CTE
Also Joe: We should headbutt in combat sports
Right. But what’s the difference between taking a roundhouse to the head or a headbutt? Or taking haymakers vs headbutts? Or any other strike? I think that’s the point Joe is making.
The difference is that you get 2 people brain damaged for the price of 1
@@darylkenny4562also the forehead is one of the strongest bones in the body someone who knows how to headbut and where to headbut wont get injured because no one with half a brain is head butting someone elses head its always the nose
Chris Benoit did flying headbutts. It worked out pretty well for himself and his family.
Hahahaha 🤣🤣
virtr3uoso fucking class 😂
virtr3uoso lmao
How can you joke about that, sick
Fucking savage.... lmaooo
Joe ''my head is an actual boulder'' Rogan.
Everyone here thinking Joe's crazy for supporting legal headbutts, but dunno that headbutts don't do anything that elbows and knees already don't. Also, headbutting used to be legal in the older UFC events...
Jibaro Hero yeah but Head Butts can damage both the guy giving and recieving the headbutt you can easily get a concussion i would think it would be cool if head butts were legal but there definitely not safer or even the same as elbows maybe knees depeneding on where it hits but its not damaging both guys
A headbutt does a FUCKING LOT that elbows and knees don't do. An elbow doesn't weigh the same as a bowling bowl and doesn't have your entire body upwards of the knees leveraging it.
Never seen anyone die from knees or elbows, I have seen 2 lads killed after being nutted between the eyes
If you watch lethwei fights they usually use headbutts from the clinch at a short distance and they use it to attack the more vulnerable areas of the head, the checks, chin/jaw, and brow line. They also dont throw them in rapid submission. It's a risk move that could have high rewards at the cost of high stakes. They also do more body shots do to the lack of gloves. Every move a lethwei fighter uses is a calculated risk/reward move. They throw an incorrect punch or kick and they could risk braking ligaments or bone. Elbows and knees have been known to dent skulls. The "safest" bet if you want to compete in a combat sport is grappling. You have less risk of injury with grappling techniques than you do with striking techniques.
Nick Vázquez I agree elbows knees shins are legit. Why not head butts clinching and mounted apponents would be fucked. Lol
@@illiteratethug3305 What's the story behind the 2 guys you saw die?
If headbutting was legal those islander boys would have an unfair advantage lol.
More like lethwei
@@souljahaden6184 someone knows what’s up lol
Sounded more like Michael Jackson than Mike Tyson😂
That’s how I won my first and only highschool fight lmao. Kid kept pushing me, I was the underdog, people crowding around getting ready, so I waited till his hands were down then smashed my forehead into his nose/left cheek. Never have I ever felt as good as I did that entire week. Guy cried too. Good times.
I've done that too. This kid kept pushing me when I he walked past me in the hall so I turned around quick and grabbed him by the back of the head and slammed my head right above his eye. He got a black eye.
First fight I had in high school, I knew I couldn't win, so I burned the guy's car up later. That's how he learned about asymmetrical warfare.
@@ralphholiman7401 that’s how a real man deals with it 💪💪💪
Cringe
My brother did that and the kid's teeth got stuck in his head. He still has the marks.
It's nice to see Joe being so excited on the topic being discussed.
Breaking: Zinadine Zidane joins the UFC
MMA fans don't get this joke.
Bring back nut punches too
Nothing like a good 15 hit nut punch combo
@@alexmohabir6382 😂😂😂
@@alexmohabir6382
Ala Keith Hackney vs Joe Son
It's just another technique bro
Master ken would be champ
By that logic kicking somebody in the nits should be illegal " its just a technique"
Joe “everything should be legal in mma” Rogan
Granite Head Rogan
Joe "you should be able to smoke DMT before a UFC match" Rogan
I think we have enough of a battle just getting bareknuckle MMA going, without having to worry about headbutt controversy. People are really touchy about double concussions
Bareknuckle would be boring as fuck, with most professionals worried about longevity just trying to out wrestle each other. I’m fine with another organization making it bare-knuckle, as long as we keep to UFC the way it is (relatively safe to ensure athletes can have a long-term careers, hopefully forbid oblique kicks). You’ll see all best fighters will join the UFC, because they don’t want broken facial bones, hands and elbows in every fight. Also, fans would always watch UFC because the fights are far more interesting if fighters don’t have to worry about such things.
Wrong on multiple counts. Bareknuckle _is_ safer. Pancrase disproves how boring it would be.
"You’ll see all best fighters will join the UFC, because they don’t want broken facial bones, hands and elbows in every fight."
This is just absurd. Elbows are equally likely to break in both cases; it's irrelevant. Hands _already_ break in the UFC, and *commonly* . In bareknuckle MMA, fighters would have to change the way they strike with their hands, obviously. Once fighters see the effectiveness of _palm strikes_ , and realize that they can hit hard _without_ breaking their hands, they'll switch to them.
Here are all of Bas Rutten's old Pancrease fights. Watch it. Then imagine modern MMA (without the silly shin guards):
ruclips.net/video/LJ917PleHn0/видео.html
The only thing that would change in bareknuckle MMA is *LESS broken hands* , and for the same reason Rugby players get less injuries than American football players.
Otherwise, same kicks, same knees, same elbows, _more effective grappling, which inherently means less concussions and broken hands_ . The only real change will be that actual punches to the head will be rare, and palm strikes will take precedence.
@@plokijuh5830 Why ban oblique kicks? I haven't heard of a single injury resulting from a oblique kick despite being legal in mma and various kickboxing styles such as savate and muay thai. They're not even that effective. If you're concerned about serious damage to the leg then just ban checking leg kicks as that causes a lot of broken shins to occur in mauy thai and in mma. I'd much rather be oblique kicked than get a leg kick checked.
@@zedek_ despite the extensive use of italics, where is your evidence? Comparing Rugby Union or League to American Football is a poor comparison. Protective gear has its place. If people want to fight bare knuckle then good for them but claiming it’s safer as it would encourage different punches is tenuous.
@@patsysadowski1546
To begin with, no evidence has ever been presented that gloves actually make the sport safer in the first place. My overall position is that, _at best_ , the gloves are irrelevant to fighter safety, and at worst, they enable dangerous tactics. My evidence is the fact that, in the early UFC, some fighters explicitly *chose* to use gloves when they weren't mandated, because it allowed them to punch wildly, and with greater force to more easily knock people out. Joe Rogan himself has touched on this fact in previous podcasts.
The protective gear blatantly enables behavior that, in this case, is abusive to the fighter's hands, and abusive to the opponent's head.
"Comparing Rugby Union or League to American Football is a poor comparison."
No it's not. It's a perfect comparison, because despite the overall similarities, you don't see Rugby players intentionally sprint at each other and seamlessly smash their heads together... because that's a fucking stupid thing to do without a helmet.
The lack of protective gear results in the issue of mass TBI being a self-corrective issue, because you either _immediately_ and severely injure yourself... or you stop intentionally ramming your head into things like American Football. Again, it's the perfect example to show how, in two relatively similar, violent sports some tactics are just impossible due to the lack of gear. Early American Football did not see these tactic either. The protective gear blatantly enables dangerous behavior.
"If people want to fight bare knuckle then good for them but claiming it’s safer as it would encourage different punches is tenuous."
No, it's not.
1) Fighters would either have to punch towards an opponent's head more softly (like how Nate Diaz punches), or they will have to use a different type of strike towards the head; literally resulting in fighters hands being better protected, because otherwise a fighter would absolutely devastate their hands.
+1 bareknuckle for safety.
2) Other strikes, such as elbows and kicks obviously remain unaffected.
Tie for safety.
3) Grappling is dramatically enhanced by the removal of gloves, because you don't have some poofy material interfering with your grip. Further, the lack of gloves makes it much easier to slip your hands into submissions due to decreased friction. This will result in more submissions, which inherently means less broken hands, and less TBI.
A massive +2 for bareknuckle safety.
So no, it's not tenuous at all. The incentive structure is dramatically altered _away_ from wild, strong punches to the head. Of course it's still a combat sport and remains high risk overall, but if the question is between which ruleset is safer... it's not really a question at all.
Closed my eyes for a second and I actually thought Mike Tyson was on
Headbutts are an incredible equaliser. Years and years of training goes out the window when a savage drives the top of his skull into your face.
Suppose its more of ruleset thing. If you get used to it and train to counter it its not that scary (supposing you can do headbutt also :D But agreed - it works because its simple-
That was actually a good Mike Tyson impression 🤞🏾😂
I watched a Vale Tudo highlights video, and i noticed headbutts from the top position in guard is a reoccurring theme, very effective.
Top guy can headbutt the guy on bottom, but bottom guy cannot do it back.
If headbutts and 6-12 elbows are allowed in the UFC. Alot of Thai fighters might enter
Hahahaha the thumbnail looks like a sober Bert kreisher
Exactly
Wait till you watch the video
yeah I was like, COOL BURTS ON TODAY!
Looks like an autistic Matt serra
Agreed!
Soccer-kicks should also be legal. (Head of a grounded opponent.) That's one reason Pride was better than UFC.
Hard for bullshit styles to thrive when they get literally stomped out
yup,and we should let them carry switch blades and brass knuckles in case that doesnt kill them
Seriously? Yeah, when I watch a UFC fight, I want there to be... KICKING YOUR OPPONENT IN THE HEAD WHILE THEY'RE DOWN!!!! Stupid idea
@@DrBarbequeSauce Well, it's sure a b.s. to kick to the head someone who's lying flat. But when somoene is trying to stand up, or trying to catch opponent's leg, why sould the soccer kick be illegal?
@@timotejmares Because a hammerfist, or an elbow can be used instead...
If headbutts become legal Somalis gonna have champs in every division
Headbutts and knees on the ground are powerful techniques against grapplers. Part of why they are banned I would guess, that and the potential for seriously unappetizing damage. Not being trained to defend against these techniques, be they legal or not, could be a huge problem in a real fight, so they should be prepared for by real, serious fighters.
I don't think hudbutts are that bad. Just look at lethwei. It takes like 20 headbutts before anything happens other than cuts
Bro a fight gets stopped for a cut
Yeah only cuts on the outside but your brain is rattling around your skull.
Joe you have completely opened my mind. I watch this everyday, it’s always something and you have the best take on every subject I just can’t help but watching your stuff!
Bert Kreischer and Steve Blackman had a baby and it was Pat Miletich.
I totally agree, Joe, my famous kick for many decades, still now at 57, even boxing is my sport !
Headbutts should be legal. If you go to Scotland everyone uses them constantly in fights. Nicknamed the Glasgow kiss even the city of Glasgow was named after it lol
Because they're all pathetic with no hands about them lol
Ey Tone
i'd prefer someone trying to headbutt me than head-kick me, been headbutted loads in my life and it's never done to me what i've seen kicks do to people in MMA.
Haha av been headbutted loads people just regularly head butt u for a laugh
Damn imagine if Joe head but u with that giant head of his.
The roggan lol (joe rogan noggin)
Presence his head is normal sized, but his body is really small. The man is a 5’6 manlet
Maybe thats why he wants them legal - he could win a belt.
Made my day!
@@levijensen6667 he's actually 5"8 & try calling him a manlet irl and watch the life drain from your body as he sidekicks you into fucking oblivion
Does anyone else miss the channel called "Rogan Watch"? That shit was entertaining
Used to just see rogan as that's host of fear factor. This podcast has given me so much respect for Joe.
I think the biggest caliber allowed in the UFC should be .50 Cal
I'd love to lightly spar with Joe (Rogan)
He motivated me to do more shadow boxing, you know, randomly.
After watching aljamain sterling win his belt from an illegal knee, I’m all for making this legal.
I miss the old rules. No weight classes, no time limits, nothing disallowed but biting and eye-gouging. Much better representation of who was really the best in a one-on-one, empty-hand, who's-the-man fight.
Good luck seeing your favorite fighter not ending up in the wheel chair
I'm sorry Joe, but on this I disagree. I don't know if there is a correct answer to all this, but headbutts can be devastating not only to your opponent, but yourself long term. When you get in the octagon you are taking risk, but to some extent the host of the fight have to minimize the risk in some ways. And if you say oh well, they are hitting each other in the head with an elbow and what not, that's a fair point hence why I said maybe there isn't a correct answer but then lets just let them use steroids. The point is, where do we draw the line and why there and not somewhere else? If they allow headbutts will punch drunk/CTE cases rise in MMA? If not, then maybe they should be legal. I'm pretty open to letting a person harm themselves if they fully know the risks, but that doesn't mean we can't put in some protections, plus the company has to think about how it will look later. Look at what the NFL is going through with CTE.
No they shouldn't. Nobody wants to see brain injuries in fighters ruin their post-fight lives.....EDIT: also, just seen Rogan say GSPs talk about aliens was due to brain trauma. How could that opinion coexist with the opinion in this video. Come on.
Really? No one wants to see brain injuries? Do you understand the tools of fighting? Fists. You get cracked in the face for a few rounds.
Right. I honestly dont wanna see someone get headbutted and have a life sized baby knot.
Iamthetruewalrus if you want to see brain injuries you should get yours checked.
Flashy Paws so you could hurt someone else with a heatbutt but not yourself? Pls explain... also, a skull is fucking hard man.
I agree. We should also ban kicks, knees, and elbows. Anything without a pad shouldnt be used in a professional fight!
I agree soccer kicks should also be legal. Guys know what they are getting in to.
“How can they stop a fight over a broken nose?” Is- is that it self explanatory? 😂
A broke nose isn’t bad, no life threatening, or long term damage. Easy to fix. Think a broken nose is the most common.thing in the ufc
@@Alvah707 yeahhh if you're gonna join a sport where youre guaranteed to get punched in the face if you get stopped by a broken nose you probably shouldn't be in the ring.
Getting your nose broke sucks, what sucks more is getting hit in the broken nose.
Hell yeah joe! and also knife fighting
IMO everything should be legal except Eye Pokes and Groin kicks
And no hair pulling
Single finger breaking?
@@mr.bullionnaire9748 I'd die fucking laughing seeing that shit play out.
Fisting?
@@jq7323 lol it be pretty fackin gruesome
Shibata has entered the chat to educate you on subdurra hematoma’s . That’s why headbutts should be illegal.
I love your show because you help people learn to respect martial arts
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night...... all day!
Headbutting wrong makes for a great accidental ko reel
for someone who is such a big proponent on CTE and the seriousness of it, Joe sure doesn't hesitate to advocate for the largest CTE / brain trauma inducing methods of fighting- Knees to the head, headbutts, bare knuckles. Joe is an enigma.
*Flahsy Paws* you are missing the fact a pro fighter will have around 36 fights in professional MMA. By the end of that carreer he will have brain trauma. Just from punches mind you. With headbuts is just a matter of time for when someone does it wrong and end pu dying on the cage.
No matter what you think to some people all the need is a motive to put MMA back to illegal status. Also this might be the reason for a huge loss of revenue because MMA promoters will be seen as barbarian exploiting fighters at all cost. It is just not worth the effort.
+Akilleus yeah dont mind him some people are just complete retards who have no idea what it actually takes to get a concussion or get brain damage.
khrom ... you think bare knuckles contribute to CTE? Or knees? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the condition. Just look at boxing or football. Repeated blows. That's the culprit. Not big, scary knuckles and knees. You could argue that they actually make mma safer than other sports since knocking a guy out cold ends the fight and saves him from more punishment than his brain can take before it has time to heal. Obviously it's still a serious risk in any sport where head trauma occurs. It's unavoidable, but these techniques you refer to in no way increase the likelihood.
Andrew N multiple knees to the head of a grounded opponent has substantially more effect than hands with padded gloves. The same goes with elbows. This is common sense. What I am saying his you are much more likely to be concussed and knocked out front knees than normal hooks, and when a fighter is subject to knees every fight in conjunction with punches, they exponentially more susceptible to multiple concussions and brain damage. This is not hard to understand.
Hey Flashy, just shut the fuck up and move on
"Hoow can you stop a, fight because of a broken nooose!?!"
😂 The fight game is tough
Joe “Concussions And CTE are terrible and most people don’t realize how bad they really are but I’m still an advocate for headbutts” Rogan
Kicks to the nuts should be legal if headbutts should be legal.
Lethwei is the only combat sport that allows headbutts as far as I know. Check it out, Lethwei and Dave Leduc of Nomad Lethwei. Its like Muay Thai, only with no gloves just wraps, no judge decision and one knockout revive. If both opponents stand at the end of the match, its a draw. Only way to win is to beat down an opponent until they no longer stand. Brutal sport. Oh, and the only full contact sport where you'll see a flying headbutt.
Sometimes joe says some wild shit, this is one of them.
Comments about figuring out Wonderboy just makes Pettis ko that much better
I have seen plenty of street fights growing up in Mexico city and the headbutt was always a fight ending blow.
Headbutting would make things more interesting, seeing how people would use it would be cool!
I'm torn on headbutts being legal - I want them to be legal - but on the otherhand I tend to think that it makes a better sport out of mma if some things are not allowed - such as headbutts/ eyegouges/ ball kicks/ etc.
So many fighters would be bleeding profusely that MMA would be set back to Miletich days in the public mind.
With all the stuff we know and are learning about CTE, I'm surprised Joe would say something like this.
GET DAVE LEDUC ON!! #LETHWEI the muay thai with headbutts
MMA should just turn into fight to the death. Bring that shit back
*crickets*
Lethwei would probably replace Muay Thai. I'm not saying Gyms will start teaching Lethwei, but they'll teach a flavor of Muay Thai with Headbutts. Lethwei with less steps.
I can’t agree more about their woodley/wonderboy point.
Pat Miletich: "You know I've been watching your show for a long time.. you're a contrarian thinker and I love it, and you've prompted a lot of people to think differently, right?"
Joe Rogan: "Uhh.. maybe...?" *
Joe would have LOVED Brazilian vale tudo. A cage, two people, no ref, no rules. Look up „rioheroes“ shit is hard af
The old school rule they need to bring back is kicking downed opponents, maybe N to S elbows- something to give more back to strikers. At the moment the rules are way in the favour of grapplers- and without headbutts/biting and striking downed opponents that is too far from the reality of a real fight for me. I would go much further, time limit when the fight goes to ground to achieve submission or ground and pound then your stood up. Less favour from judges for going to ground in the first place. Its the only way to go if they want to grow the sport.
headbutts would def change the mma game from what it is now. i agree, if you can smash someones head with a fist, kick or an elbow than why not a headbutt????
SteelCity1981 to protect fighters from themselves.
If that would happened, Holyield would go to the UFC 😂
I think the reason CTE isn’t as prevalent in mma as is boxing and football is cause a lot less of those sting hits that don’t knock you out. Headbutts would change that completely. Cool an elbow would do that but only to one fighter.
Just imagine Tito Ortiz head butting a opponent. I can see the funeral now smh.
So we getting mortal kombat?
My friend did that in a street fight , the guy he head budded his teeth were embedded in his skull
Also, kicks (or at least KNEES) to a downed opponent's head should be LEGAL! Remember PRIDE? In Japan, wrestlers had a hard time spamming with takedown, because they end in a sprawl, the defender could smash their heads with knees. I can point out at least 5 big KOs that came like that in PRIDE era. Removing the knees in this position takes a lot of stand-up fighters to battle wrestlers and to finish fights. Kicking a downed opponent's' head should be legal - yes, it might not look pretty to some, but it is a legit move in a fight and again it takes away from ferocious fighters like Shogun and Wanderlei. Most fighters who saw big success in PRIDE never saw it in the UFC, and IMO it is for the different (more passive) ruleset, including boxing round scoring etc.
Absolutely. Joe is awesome man!
Eye jabs and knee strikes work for Jon Jones
Rich Gallagher hahahaha
Knee strikes are legal tho
12-6 elbows too
hunter S didn’t really work
A real OG in the flesh 🙌
They headbutt in Lethwei , look into it.
The movie reference Joe is talking about is Con-air
Joe has officially lost his mind lmao
Griff Shut up pansy
Good thing you know better... cause that Rogan sure doesn’t know anything about MMA.
Headbutts will change the perception of grappling arts forever…
A lot of techniques will have to change in the grappling industry.
Pat actually lives a house down from my ex, Bettendorf IA. Her brother dated his daughter
I hate people that DON'T fight but want to see MORE bloodshed.
imagine a guy on top looking for a headbutt, misses and knocks himself out. 😂😂😂
Headbutting should continued to be an illegal move. It can literally kill someone and at the very least, induce mental health problems. I understand that punches, kicks, elbows, knees and even persistent partial oxygen deprivation from choke-holds can cause the same result, but your head is a literal weapon that can kill both fighters. Its a brutal sport, but you want to avoid serious harm or the risk of fatalities as much as possible. If two people were to headbutt each other at the same time I would bet on my medical expertise that the accumulated force would highly likely kill both fighters there and then in the ring or at the very least, would not give a fighter chance to seek medical treatment/surgery intervention. I also have to mention the fact that there is a reason why headbutts are classed as weapons in assault charges, due to the deadly force a headbutt can project. A verdict can go from assault to GBH with the use of a headbutt. In a practical sense, your legs generate the most force, however legs can be partially blocked, less accurate and the radius of impact can be a lot more distributed across the head. It still remains dangerous of course, but a headbutt will be a heavily condensed centrepoint of contact, inabling any distribution of force to spread throught the skull, and instead has a higher likelihood of penetrating through the skull. I expected Joe to know better than this, but it has been some years since this video, so hopefully he has changed his mind.
are u a doctor?this is a freindly question..
@@maadhujovi9528 No thats fine, no I'm not a doctor, I am a PA (Physician Associate) though in A&E for the NHS.
@@scratchthesurface3138 good for you
@@maadhujovi9528 Thank you, but it's your taxes, if you reside in the UK, that support me haha.
No holds barred will always be superior to MMA
Headbutts are legal in Lethwei. Some fucking mad fights on there
Everyone in the comments against headbutts clearly hasn't been in a fight.
We complain about boxers not being actually fighters because they use a narrow set of rules, but don't want the UFC to incorporate a major fighting weapon.
"Boxers can only keep their hands high because they don't need to worry about takedowns"
Well "UFC fighters can only close the distance and control their opponents hands and know that they're safe"
Headbutts should 100% be in MMA.
WHY?! Increases the chance of a no-decision via double KO!😂😂😂😂
Because we want to see kisses be dealt out.
I like Burmese boxing and even in this sport where head butt are encouraged head butts are fairly rare.
id like to see what would happen with legal headbutts. i feel it would completely change the modern game. especially on the ground.
Well since shibata had to have his scull removed from a stiff head but I’d disagree