Indeed constitutional framework of rights do not draw from Indian genealogy of free speech. However there seems to be a deep seated cultural epistemic understanding of group rights. State was always week in India in comparison to society organized along groups (caste, guilds, etc.). This also seems to be root of artistic freedom that was most seriously protected in writing, music, sculpting, etc. The US context is special because of negative articulation of First Amendment. The US First Amendment does give citizens free speech rights because inalienable right. It actually takes away the right of the government to restrict or interfere with that right. In reality restrictions on speech rights the US have evolved through constitutional case law.
Good that you did a long podcast and sort of put your views, thought process, basic reasoning framework in front of the audience. In future, I will write a reply/review of this podcast. Interesting.
India does have a cultural framework. It comes from a different direction. It comes from the premise that nobody captures the whole truth. And therefore there can always be another perspective, another take on every subject, including God. This may not be the freedom of expression based on individual rights. But what does it matter? Why would you not build upon the cultural assets that you do have?.the above is the same as the JS Mill's Trinity approached from a different direction. In regard to the related point Nikhil made that the above was a matter of individual morality. Concept of right came against the Authority. To this what i would say is that in the West you had a Church claiming total knowledge about how the world works. There were fragments of new knowledge emerging like Galileo and Darwin which was being opposed by the Church. Hence you needed the concept of individual rights and freedom of expression developing to help them stand and against the contrary position represented by Church initially and the "sovereign" State subsequently. In India you never had the equivalent of the Church, So it may not follow the exact same path.
Because of people like u India is going to be a third world hell hole. Individual liberty ,Freedom of expression sab gayi tel lene . Go on keep on dreaming about vishwa guru which is not going to happen .
Hi Vishwanathan. Well pointed. Ignore the idiotic comments like Mr. Patel's who don't seem to have the capacity to gauge basic nuances, let alone have thorough knowledge of history (and thus, historical context), false cultural equivalencies, and most importantly, the true understanding of who we were/kind of still are/can be in an even better way, ie. seekers, not dogmatic believers. Our fundamentals are right in regard to the pursuit of individual and collective excellence and knowledge-seeking. While I really appreciate Kushal for facilitating engaging conversations, he does tend to make baseless sweeping statements like "Indians are not known for being brilliant" and "Indians will cringe at this podcast while thinking 'kuchh zyaada ho gaya". I hope he's just trolling.. because if not, he is then giving out some serious Macaulayite vibes vis-a-vis superiority complex.. "I'm above Indians." Don't get me wrong.. I too have several grievances with the modern and post-modern Indian culture and ethos. Yes, it has been severely affected by Abrahamic dogmas and a massive colonial hangover (read: inferiority complex) and a massive re-education campaign is vitally needed to rectify this thought process. But, the Brits have actually left and we should be able to put together 2 and 2 and see through the ideological propaganda from all ends of the political spectrum. The rhetoric is full-on in all camps and a high-functioning democracy will only be possible when we find a healthy balance of our EQ and IQ.. because naively ignoring, downplaying, or overdoing either of these, will only give us the likes of Akbaruddin Owaisi on one end and Kushal Mehra (the version of his that I saw from those cringey unfounded comments of his) on the other. Anyway, have a great day, year, and life ahead.
Please make a twitter thread or video on how you manage to read/listen or watch so much content, then remember each and everything and create so many podcast and patreon content with using SM, entertainment, sports, family and business...I am amazed by your such TM skills. I can't even complete one documentary in a week or one book in a month. Please reply...i am asking this continuously since last 3 days on twitter.
@@rasputin1433 I know but I dont know how. BUt still about other things like yesterday, kushal after doingthis video jumped to a twitter space on khalistan totally a different topic...so how so much exact knowledge consumed, managed, remembered and given through continuous podcast, twitter thread, patreon content etc. It just boggles me. Thus I want some insights into it.
@@nilaygadia9519 he has been reading things for years now , you make your mind that i will read say 50 pages of a book and watch 1 or 2 podcasts ( instructive ones) every day . Do this regularly and you can be like him . The key is consistency .
I think that free speech was present( its proto version ) by examining historical evidences of the massive amount of debates and ideas that have originated from india , so i think free speecn is their but as most people dont even know about the massive tradition of debates in india it is not cultivated . The solution i think is teaching about the vaad parampara so that freedom of speech becomes integral for any hindu espousing indian ideals as his guiding principle.
@@jyou6202 have you even seen his shows , he is doing a brilliant job in respect to indian culture , this particular podcast was about freedom of speech which we seriously lack , so of course he will be critical . What is this obsession with respect , a person must be allowed to criticise anything in any way . The very fact that you say that he has to be respectful means you have not understood freedom of speech which this whole 2hr podcast was about .
@@jyou6202 the very fact you think freedom is dumb proves him right , if freedom is not protected then why even bother anything , men are not slaves . You say vaad parampara is already there but then you provide such a stupid clause which utterly destroys any sense of freedom of speech . Refer to the natyashastras story , were the devas supposed to respectfully criticise the asuras , No they were lampooning them as that is their freedom .
@@jyou6202 why do you want respect , this is your problem and the problem of indians that you need respect from the other side ( by the way i am hindutva supporting ) . You are saying you need intellectual doscourse but who are you to decide what respect is . You say younare open to me criticising islam as they are not open to criticism , but because hinduism is open as you say one must not disrespect it , can you see the problem in this argument , on the one hand you say hinduism is open to criticism then in the very next line you say the most jnsulating thing that one must mollycoddle and sugarcoat ones criticism of hinduism then how it is open if that is your definition then sorry your hinduism is not open . Do you even understand what freedom means , you say hinduism is free and then give the most unfree argument , merely saying hinduism is open does not make hinduism open if hindus like you and i are not open . You seem to think that you want intellectual debate and for that you are willing to suppress what you wish to percieve as uncouth arguments , but do you realise that your arguments crushes all debate leave the intellectual kind , you cant force intellectualism on people based on your conception of how things should be even though how obvious they may seem to you .
@@jyou6202 i want to provoke people, a society in which thought does not occur ( and thoughts occur only on provocation we are doing that right now had i just said oh sir you are right and i just disagree on this one tiny point , we would not have this debate and would not have thought our arguments ) is fundamentally a dead society . Cancel culture is the most anti liberterian thing , it assumes that one perskn or a group of perskn can decide what everyone has to follow . Insult on the other hand is the highest form of freedom , i will count myself as truly free if i can criticise both allah and shiva with bad words and nothing will happen to me ( i wont because i respect them, but i should be able if i want to ) . Democracy is protected by a free people not a people constantly seeking foreign validation and respect from others . Respect is earned not demanded
@@jyou6202 first i am not a liberterian , i just like some of its principles and find them very useful for hindutva to have . Your insistence on insult is highly problematic , hinduism is free and can easily tolerate insults i am sure of that what i am not sure wether hindus are free and can tolerate insults . A person who is insulting to you may be speaking some truth which you can heed well . Insult is taken not given . I am not misinterpreting , you yourself dont know what you are talking about , respect can never be the condition on which hinduism declares it freedom . Who are you to decide what insult is anyway . What may be insult to you is constructive criticism to me .
Your understanding of Indian culture is different. I advise you to remove the spectacles before re-reading the books you read in future. You have a particular spectacles on, whether you agree with it or not. I have recently figured out the company of those spectacles. This is more so,in the context of way forward.
Coloniality ka chonchala hai , aisa kehna chah raha hia , ye jo chashme ki theory hai voh sabse dangerous hai , matlab agar koi cheez indian hai chahe achi ya buri voh automatically acchi aur koi bhi western cheez buri .
@Anirudh are bhai padh lo main toh uska mazaak bana raha hoon ( original post ka ) I am with you individual rights are absolutely essential for progress of hinduism and indians , after destruction of caste it must not become a group based society but an individual based society . It is one of the greatest innovations of enlightenment thinkers to say that the individual is the basis of society .
It's great to know the background and evolution of FoE and lack of it In in India but to conclude the legal aspects of in for India this podcast says 'chud*ao apna' yeah sab badhiya chal raha hai!!!
I don't think there is anything called absolute free speech its an American myth we have fallen for because its practically not possible. Practically or realistically we can have diversity of speech not absolute speech.
Simultaneously, almost all the people of the village where I live in are more happy than you even after earning peanuts. Your understanding of Indian culture is different, thats all I can say. Moreover, mere reading of books will not suffice. Sorry to point that out.
@@yash6609 Due to mentality like this Indians are not going to achieve any thing if u want progress than u have to be dissatisfied from your present condition . Strive to move forward to climb up the soical ladder . My ancestors were goat herders my great grandfather was not happy with his family condition and he work hard and change it now we own many shops from apparel to sweets to jwellery to semi precious stones. It all happen because he was not happy. That why AIM say India will remain a third world sh*t hole in his life time and probably mine too .
Kushal is too american centric. Always romanticizing the goods of the west but never delving into the negative consequences. Ye gorre apne baap k sage nahi hote aur wo culture chaliye kushal bhai ko kyuki unke khudke bacche to hai nahi
The idea of natural rights instead of natural duties is so amazing. It merely reflects the intellectual void of the ‘natural rights’ advocates. Naturally, romanticisation follows. I think they actually don’t understand anything from the indigenous concepts they might have read. Mere reading is reflective of nothing. The podcaster is an avid reader, but if you listen to the entire podcast, it will be clear to you that he has a very very shallow understanding of things. Leave them be. He is a good pointer to diverse resources, thats all. It is enough to follow the videos on this podcast for me atleast.
@@lok1249 there is always a difference between an indian studying from indigeneous point of view and a indian studying from oreintalist point of view I think it was literally framed exellently by k.c Bhattacharya's swaraj in ideas (only 6 pages) Also I wanna say, there are certain ideals not present in our culture, what these people make a grave mistake is. They tend to assimilate ourselves into that ideal instead of doing otherway round, the ideal has to be worshipped in the ceremonial of our religions , here the ideal is free speech
@@Nimish204 i am sorry to say Hinduism historically had and still has free speech the problem we are facing today is whether or not it should be like western style free speech or not. My understanding is if we can afford it then we should follow western template but what if our society cannot afford it then we have to find another way.
Always love when Asli mehra comes to the show 👌🏻
Missed it live. Man, this is a treat.
Indeed constitutional framework of rights do not draw from Indian genealogy of free speech. However there seems to be a deep seated cultural epistemic understanding of group rights. State was always week in India in comparison to society organized along groups (caste, guilds, etc.). This also seems to be root of artistic freedom that was most seriously protected in writing, music, sculpting, etc. The US context is special because of negative articulation of First Amendment. The US First Amendment does give citizens free speech rights because inalienable right. It actually takes away the right of the government to restrict or interfere with that right. In reality restrictions on speech rights the US have evolved through constitutional case law.
Good that you did a long podcast and sort of put your views, thought process, basic reasoning framework in front of the audience. In future, I will write a reply/review of this podcast. Interesting.
Extremely intriguing discussion. Mehra bois firing it up🔥
India does have a cultural framework. It comes from a different direction. It comes from the premise that nobody captures the whole truth. And therefore there can always be another perspective, another take on every subject, including God.
This may not be the freedom of expression based on individual rights. But what does it matter? Why would you not build upon the cultural assets that you do have?.the above is the same as the JS Mill's Trinity approached from a different direction. In regard to the related point Nikhil made that the above was a matter of individual morality. Concept of right came against the Authority. To this what i would say is that in the West you had a Church claiming total knowledge about how the world works. There were fragments of new knowledge emerging like Galileo and Darwin which was being opposed by the Church. Hence you needed the concept of individual rights and freedom of expression developing to help them stand and against the contrary position represented by Church initially and the "sovereign" State subsequently. In India you never had the equivalent of the Church, So it may not follow the exact same path.
Because of people like u India is going to be a third world hell hole.
Individual liberty ,Freedom of expression sab gayi tel lene .
Go on keep on dreaming about vishwa guru which is not going to happen .
Hi Vishwanathan. Well pointed. Ignore the idiotic comments like Mr. Patel's who don't seem to have the capacity to gauge basic nuances, let alone have thorough knowledge of history (and thus, historical context), false cultural equivalencies, and most importantly, the true understanding of who we were/kind of still are/can be in an even better way, ie. seekers, not dogmatic believers. Our fundamentals are right in regard to the pursuit of individual and collective excellence and knowledge-seeking.
While I really appreciate Kushal for facilitating engaging conversations, he does tend to make baseless sweeping statements like "Indians are not known for being brilliant" and "Indians will cringe at this podcast while thinking 'kuchh zyaada ho gaya". I hope he's just trolling.. because if not, he is then giving out some serious Macaulayite vibes vis-a-vis superiority complex.. "I'm above Indians."
Don't get me wrong.. I too have several grievances with the modern and post-modern Indian culture and ethos. Yes, it has been severely affected by Abrahamic dogmas and a massive colonial hangover (read: inferiority complex) and a massive re-education campaign is vitally needed to rectify this thought process. But, the Brits have actually left and we should be able to put together 2 and 2 and see through the ideological propaganda from all ends of the political spectrum. The rhetoric is full-on in all camps and a high-functioning democracy will only be possible when we find a healthy balance of our EQ and IQ.. because naively ignoring, downplaying, or overdoing either of these, will only give us the likes of Akbaruddin Owaisi on one end and Kushal Mehra (the version of his that I saw from those cringey unfounded comments of his) on the other.
Anyway, have a great day, year, and life ahead.
Please make a twitter thread or video on how you manage to read/listen or watch so much content, then remember each and everything and create so many podcast and patreon content with using SM, entertainment, sports, family and business...I am amazed by your such TM skills. I can't even complete one documentary in a week or one book in a month. Please reply...i am asking this continuously since last 3 days on twitter.
Bro you need to level up I finish a book in 4 days.
@@rasputin1433 I know but I dont know how. BUt still about other things like yesterday, kushal after doingthis video jumped to a twitter space on khalistan totally a different topic...so how so much exact knowledge consumed, managed, remembered and given through continuous podcast, twitter thread, patreon content etc. It just boggles me. Thus I want some insights into it.
@@nilaygadia9519 he has been reading things for years now , you make your mind that i will read say 50 pages of a book and watch 1 or 2 podcasts ( instructive ones) every day . Do this regularly and you can be like him . The key is consistency .
I think that free speech was present( its proto version ) by examining historical evidences of the massive amount of debates and ideas that have originated from india , so i think free speecn is their but as most people dont even know about the massive tradition of debates in india it is not cultivated . The solution i think is teaching about the vaad parampara so that freedom of speech becomes integral for any hindu espousing indian ideals as his guiding principle.
@@jyou6202 have you even seen his shows , he is doing a brilliant job in respect to indian culture , this particular podcast was about freedom of speech which we seriously lack , so of course he will be critical .
What is this obsession with respect , a person must be allowed to criticise anything in any way . The very fact that you say that he has to be respectful means you have not understood freedom of speech which this whole 2hr podcast was about .
@@jyou6202 the very fact you think freedom is dumb proves him right , if freedom is not protected then why even bother anything , men are not slaves .
You say vaad parampara is already there but then you provide such a stupid clause which utterly destroys any sense of freedom of speech .
Refer to the natyashastras story , were the devas supposed to respectfully criticise the asuras , No they were lampooning them as that is their freedom .
@@jyou6202 why do you want respect , this is your problem and the problem of indians that you need respect from the other side ( by the way i am hindutva supporting ) .
You are saying you need intellectual doscourse but who are you to decide what respect is .
You say younare open to me criticising islam as they are not open to criticism , but because hinduism is open as you say one must not disrespect it , can you see the problem in this argument , on the one hand you say hinduism is open to criticism then in the very next line you say the most jnsulating thing that one must mollycoddle and sugarcoat ones criticism of hinduism then how it is open if that is your definition then sorry your hinduism is not open .
Do you even understand what freedom means , you say hinduism is free and then give the most unfree argument , merely saying hinduism is open does not make hinduism open if hindus like you and i are not open .
You seem to think that you want intellectual debate and for that you are willing to suppress what you wish to percieve as uncouth arguments , but do you realise that your arguments crushes all debate leave the intellectual kind , you cant force intellectualism on people based on your conception of how things should be even though how obvious they may seem to you .
@@jyou6202 i want to provoke people, a society in which thought does not occur ( and thoughts occur only on provocation we are doing that right now had i just said oh sir you are right and i just disagree on this one tiny point , we would not have this debate and would not have thought our arguments ) is fundamentally a dead society .
Cancel culture is the most anti liberterian thing , it assumes that one perskn or a group of perskn can decide what everyone has to follow . Insult on the other hand is the highest form of freedom , i will count myself as truly free if i can criticise both allah and shiva with bad words and nothing will happen to me ( i wont because i respect them, but i should be able if i want to ) .
Democracy is protected by a free people not a people constantly seeking foreign validation and respect from others . Respect is earned not demanded
@@jyou6202 first i am not a liberterian , i just like some of its principles and find them very useful for hindutva to have .
Your insistence on insult is highly problematic , hinduism is free and can easily tolerate insults i am sure of that what i am not sure wether hindus are free and can tolerate insults . A person who is insulting to you may be speaking some truth which you can heed well .
Insult is taken not given .
I am not misinterpreting , you yourself dont know what you are talking about , respect can never be the condition on which hinduism declares it freedom . Who are you to decide what insult is anyway . What may be insult to you is constructive criticism to me .
Beautiful 2 hours. BTW can anybody tell me what are the books behind Asli mehra? all of same colour, size, same look.
I watched this in 2x. People who hate watching longer videos should try increasing the speed.
A very deep and insightful discussion. Not superficial unlike many other discussions on channels. Thanks for it.
1:30:36 nailed it
Hey whats the name of the track at the start..thanks a zillion In advance (:
Kushal bhaji Zindabad
India has saste Stalin's everywhere (1:30:36), some of them become chief minister of Tamil Nadu.
Some become pm
@@playerjack2566 At least they're not called Stalin.
@@harisadu8998 but called brother from different mother
Your understanding of Indian culture is different. I advise you to remove the spectacles before re-reading the books you read in future.
You have a particular spectacles on, whether you agree with it or not. I have recently figured out the company of those spectacles.
This is more so,in the context of way forward.
Coloniality ka chonchala hai , aisa kehna chah raha hia , ye jo chashme ki theory hai voh sabse dangerous hai , matlab agar koi cheez indian hai chahe achi ya buri voh automatically acchi aur koi bhi western cheez buri .
@Anirudh are bhai padh lo main toh uska mazaak bana raha hoon ( original post ka )
I am with you individual rights are absolutely essential for progress of hinduism and indians , after destruction of caste it must not become a group based society but an individual based society . It is one of the greatest innovations of enlightenment thinkers to say that the individual is the basis of society .
why can't you have such an important discussion in Hindi
He said that south and northeast people will not understand
You know that india is multilinguistic country
It's great to know the background and evolution of FoE and lack of it In in India but to conclude the legal aspects of in for India this podcast says 'chud*ao apna' yeah sab badhiya chal raha hai!!!
West got these rights against church supremacy etc, but same is not the case in India...
West is not waste. If he is praising america, nothing wrong.
Moar of this.
I don't think there is anything called absolute free speech its an American myth we have fallen for because its practically not possible. Practically or realistically we can have diversity of speech not absolute speech.
America has more libertarian type of free speech
May be this over emotional pysche of Indians is the reason that we are not able to devlope still .
Simultaneously, almost all the people of the village where I live in are more happy than you even after earning peanuts.
Your understanding of Indian culture is different, thats all I can say. Moreover, mere reading of books will not suffice. Sorry to point that out.
@@yash6609 Stop this romanticisation of poverty.
@@yash6609 Due to mentality like this Indians are not going to achieve any thing if u want progress than u have to be dissatisfied from your present condition .
Strive to move forward to climb up the soical ladder .
My ancestors were goat herders my great grandfather was not happy with his family condition and he work hard and change it now we own many shops from apparel to sweets to jwellery to semi precious stones.
It all happen because he was not happy.
That why AIM say India will remain a third world sh*t hole in his life time and probably mine too .
Kushal is too american centric. Always romanticizing the goods of the west but never delving into the negative consequences. Ye gorre apne baap k sage nahi hote aur wo culture chaliye kushal bhai ko kyuki unke khudke bacche to hai nahi
The idea of natural rights instead of natural duties is so amazing. It merely reflects the intellectual void of the ‘natural rights’ advocates. Naturally, romanticisation follows.
I think they actually don’t understand anything from the indigenous concepts they might have read. Mere reading is reflective of nothing. The podcaster is an avid reader, but if you listen to the entire podcast, it will be clear to you that he has a very very shallow understanding of things. Leave them be.
He is a good pointer to diverse resources, thats all. It is enough to follow the videos on this podcast for me atleast.
@@yash6609 could you reflect more on the "it merely reflects the intellectual..." line? Serious question
@@lok1249 there is always a difference between an indian studying from indigeneous point of view and a indian studying from oreintalist point of view
I think it was literally framed exellently by k.c Bhattacharya's swaraj in ideas (only 6 pages)
Also I wanna say, there are certain ideals not present in our culture, what these people make a grave mistake is. They tend to assimilate ourselves into that ideal instead of doing otherway round, the ideal has to be worshipped in the ceremonial of our religions , here the ideal is free speech
@@aditya-rt4zb Ideals like free speech must be incorporated into the culture. And the culture must adopt to it.
@@Nimish204 i am sorry to say Hinduism historically had and still has free speech the problem we are facing today is whether or not it should be like western style free speech or not. My understanding is if we can afford it then we should follow western template but what if our society cannot afford it then we have to find another way.