Please make it STOP!!! M-Sport boss Rich Millener calls for space frame chassis for Rally2 Ford Puma
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- Опубликовано: 4 дек 2024
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Additional footage courtesy of WRC Promoter and Red Bull Content Pool
For me the one of the attractions of rallying is the clear link between the competition car and the road car. That is why I like the current Rally2 cars. Yes they have large arches and a wing but it is clear they are a ‘production’ based car beneath the add ons. Plus how many manufacturers are going to commit to building space-frame cars rather than the current adaptation of production cars for sale to independent teams, eg Skoda, Citroen etc.
Especially for me ‘keep it real’.
Rally2 cars are nothing like their production counterparts. Virtually everything is totally different, therefore so are the vehicle's dynamics, and so is the performance. $50k vs $300k. Worlds apart. To have back that infamous "link" you have to go down to Rally3 level at the very least, but that's unreasonable for a world championship. They are simply too underwhelming driving technique-wise for the huge talent of world-class WRC drivers. And the problem is not modern rally, but that modern times left us with easy, boring, safety-first road cars that are no longer exciting nor worthy for top level rally, and for good reasons. That link in modern times is simply impossible while maintaining a world-class level of driving.
@ i appreciate they are very different. Countless hours are spent reengineering the rear of the body shell just to accept a completely different suspension set up with ‘coil overs’ and rear differential subframe. However for me there is still a link to the road version rather than eg the space framed, two door Puma.
TOTALLY AGREE!!! Making more complex, faster, Rally race cars does not help manufacturers or the consumer. Production based cars benefitted from development of production cars for Rally. Where will space frame, moving mounting points, crazy aero, hybrid drivetrain, etc. help with the development of better low cost of entry cars? The things they are focusing on now do not help NEW RALLY FANS DEVELOPMENT!!! Focus on inspiring NEW YOUNG people to get into cars!
The time where motorsport improves production cars is over for a long time though,
motorsport must embrace what it really is now or die: One piece of entertainment of many available.
The solution for wrc first and foremost is to up the entertainment value, if they can't do that - what kinds of cars they can't do it with do not matter
@I see it differently. Kaizen the Japanese word for constant and never ending improvement, applied to for example Chassis design for torsional stiffness, safety, and weight reduction is helped by learning from Rally and circuit racing... I have watched how chassis bracing becomes design changes. The old creaks of cars and suspension inefficiencies due to movement of pick up points, has improved. Though it is not seen, it is clearly felt. An example of improvements in One of the areas that space frame designs do not help because it is not applicable. IMHO
The laugh of it is the Ford Puma is based on rhe Fiesta platform ! The suspension can be lowered. Citroen managed ok to turn the tall C3 into a decent Rally2 car.
Good note. The C3 looks fat vs competitors since the first generation, and it was also evident when it was in the top class.
Weirdly, the C3 is about the same height as a Fiesta (1474mm). That surprised me, as it looks much taller. The other Rally2 cars are not as tall; Hyundai i20 is 1450mm, Fabia is 1459mm, Yaris is 1455mm. Puma is a bit taller at 1536mm. It's still on the Fiesta platform however so, once you add in all of the body shell and suspension changes, it would be interesting to see how different it was. I think it would be closer. According to one random website I found, the Puma has 30mm more ground clearance than the Fiesta, which would be eliminated in the suspension changes, so the overall height would then be much closer. I should have put these figures in the video, shouldn't I? 🤣
It’s far too tall to turn into an effective rally car. Would be totally uncompetitive
Geez, I'm tired of M-Sport playing the victim. I've supported them my whole life, but that same speech gets repetitive. 'We have no money, please do as we want to or we leave the sport'. I get that you can't emulate a tenth of the budget that Hyundai and Toyota have, but don't play the victim here. It's always the same excuse, No good driver? No money to hire top driver. No testing? No money for PET. But they've had Tänak last year, they have the exclusive contract for Junior WRC, they have the full factory Ford Dakar Project.
They also had Seb Ogier a few years back.....
The Ford Dakar program is funded by Ford, not Msport
Yea you're right on this one.
It’s funny because this all stems from the fact that they’re running out of fiesta shells. Not very public but they have a lot of people bringing stock fiestas to them to convert to rally2 but people don’t realise they cut 1/3 of the chassis off before any shell parts start to go back on them. Space frame cars can work but they need to be made affordable which won’t happen. M-sport will likely get an fia ultimatum very soon
Killarney is a great rally, Molls Gap is the amphitheatre of Irish rallying, and one of the best stages in Europe - superb!
There’s a great cafe there too 😂
It does look incredible. Even having only watched videos of it, seeing the cars screaming into view on the road towards the gap is amazing, it's instantly recognisable
Totally agree. Rally 2 is great to watch. Rally 1 has been a disaster and it's unbelievable that they want to do the same to a great class.
Totally Agree, current Rally2 is more attractive and competitive, as more brand manufacturer and number of entry involved. Please attract more manufacturer as like bring back Mitsubishi and Subaru into it.......
Agree, space frames need to be ditched
meanwhile here in indonesia, there's rally driver that drive mpv with AP4 regulation for APRC. i don't see problems with crossover. can google Mitsubishi Xpander AP4.
Why can’t the people at the top of rallying see what the rally fans want. If these space frame rally2 car come into effect, I think it will kill rallying at a lower level. Between cost and up keep of them.
M sport pinned its colours to the Ford mast decades ago and they've done very well by it. However Ford is sliding into oblivion so they need to face reality and look for another marque they can take to the highest levels of the sport. I'm sure they are many non European manufacturers that would be happy to work with M Sport. Change your business model don't try and manipulate the sport for your own advantage.Btw a space frame puma is not a puma, just like a dakar hi lux isn't a hi lux.
Totally agree, really the only point of Rally 2 these days i this maintained relation to production cars. For me, and i guess many others, this is why Rally 2 is still fun to follow and is still kept relevant parallell to Rally 1. I am fine with Rally 1 becoming what it is with the performance and safety that it has resulted in, it has a high entertainment value for sure. But that is given that the roots (and the accesibility) of production related cars still exist in the WRC. Also i must say i am slightly surprised to hear that from Rich, i would guess that building financially "accesible" cars is key for M-sport to have any kind of business and survive. Guessing it has some connection to the M-sport/Ford strains.
Rally2 cars are nothing like their production counterparts. Virtually everything is totally different, therefore so are the vehicle's dynamics, and so is the performance. $50k vs $300k. Worlds apart. To have back that infamous "link" you have to go down to Rally3 level at the very least, but that's unreasonable for a world championship. They are simply too underwhelming driving technique-wise for the huge talent of world-class WRC drivers. And the problem is not modern rally, but that modern times left us with easy, boring, safety-first road cars that are no longer exciting nor worthy for top level rally, and for good reasons. That link in modern times is simply impossible while maintaining a world-class level of driving.
Go back to group A cars. It’s simple.
Group N would be even better
Your right, good video . They need to keep them with similar characteristics to the production car and the rally car that would make it class again like when group A was around a road car Subaru had a similar sounding car and engine and look to a rally car and I think to be able to compare the two was cool . Just look at the interest there is in historic rallying at the moment, .. that’s just my opinion anyway .
This is simply based on self interest. However M Sport needs to be careful as I dire say a lot of their income is from privateers running rally 2 spec cars all across Europe and beyond. This would then also have a knock on effect to the lower formulas. Taken to it's logical conclusion alll FIA rally tiers should be space frame if the augment is that manufactures not longer produce vehicles suitable for rallying.
Great video, although I'm disappointed you snubbed the greatest WRC crossover of all time, the mighty Suzuki SX4!! I love an underdog.
The Rich Millener thing is very peculiar. It's like saying i'm ready to field a new NBA team, as long as you change all the rules and only let very short people play. Why would the FIA change the rules for one team (ignoring the 206 WRC 😂). Having said that, WRC2 is going rather well, so it's about time someone at the FIA fiddled about and messed it all up.
The problem with the SX4 is that it undermined my point 🤣
totally agree with you rally 1 a pure joke no car company interested Millener just thinking of M.Sport not thinking of the future of rallying for the people that do it for enjoyment the GRASS ROOT FOLK the people that keep him in his job he just needs to snap out of the dream
WRC2 is more realistic, cheaper and better.
The GR Yaris WRC2 will sweep titles 2025 season. Ford is sleeping!!
So many replies already. Great to see how many fans are moved and most are anti-spaceframe!!!!
I have huge respect for Millener. But does he actually have manufacturer support of Ford (I doubt it) or does he try to sell something for his company, that M-Sport could sell to anybody without any make/marketing relevance?
I was never a fan of Custom(!) Hybrid, but I do massively struggle to believe Hybrid was the only problem. Since we have Spaceframe Rally1:
- Exactly Zero new manufacturers came
- Out of 60 Rally1 cars built so far exactly 2 were sold
(To compare I think alone WRC’17 M-Sport built 60 and sold 60, they actually built more than they used! Rally1 across all 2.5 manufacturers 60 were built, 2 sold, what a laugh if only it was funny...)
So Rally1 is a failure and since both sold Rally1 cars are without Hybrid, again Hybrid is not the sole problem!
Maybe my overriding headline should be:
WHEN DOES THE FIA SEE REALITY? Ford does not see reality, but is the FIA dependant on Ford, who show little interest in the WRC since decades?
What do I mean with REALITY?
Well, first of all, what everybody sees, it just is communicated differently by politics and media under the green mantle (that isn’t even green at all)
So OK, I loved groupA. Strangely I loved groupB too, but GroupB were not quite Dakar and E-Xtreme style beach buggies.
Honestly, I do not even know where to start!…:
Out of all of them it was a former Ford Sports boss (yes the manufacturer) who once told me: “F1 is Brand Awareness, WRC is Product Placement!”
Please do not let us lose the Product Placement! Brand Awareness we already have in F1, in FormulaE, in WEC, in Dakar, in E-Xtreme, in everything, let Rally not go under! Let rally stand out! We need Product Placement!
I am a fan of groupA and see the potential problems: I loved groupA because of pub talk. But without Pub Talk there is no point doing it in the first place!
- Virtually: You wanted a hot hatch (that probably only came as a homologation special, but exactly that sells cars!) and suddenly you are confronted with the Nissan Sunny GTI-R with its “interwarmer”. Funny word, thank you Pub Talk! Well, that did not sell any cars for Nissan, but Nissan learned their lesson, never ever repeated that mistake again, and subsequently made the best F2 car for gravel with the biggest wheel travel. THAT IS HOW WRC MAKES ITSELF USEFUL!!!!
Everybody remembers the Peugeot 306 Maxi, yes it was super spectacular, but how many world titles has it won? The interwarmer in turn was a mistake that Nissan had to admit. With Spaceframe and Compact Dynamics Hybrid and French Oreca Engine Trabant could sell their 2-stroke eastern Block car as a Hyundai i20 N Rally1 with slightly different plastics and colours, is how you prove yourself to potential customers? Who pays this? Marketing by any chance, because you have a great product?
WELL, SORRY, BUT IT DOES WIND ME UP: REPEAT THAT HEADLINE:
Is Millener without factory support? So he and M-Sport now can make Custom Shells for everybody, from Trabant via Red Bull to Stella Artois, the same as Compact Dynamics did so far?
WHERE IS THE REALITY?
HELLO FIA?!?!!
Most sold car in Europe since 3 years is the Dacia Sandero. Did you even know Dacia 2 decades ago? Renault revived the Romanian brand because general media and EU would rip Renault apart for offerring a car without A/C and Stereo. But not everybody finds this important. My dad has a Dacia, because he is 88, he does not want radio, does not want A/C…. OR: See Peugeot and their range of “Rallye” models, a 306 Rallye was a 306 GTI6 with the same 167BHP and the same 6-speed box but less A/C, rear wiper, no stereo, small steel rims for great acceleration, who needs to do 155mph…? Like my 88y/o dad I don’t want A/C nor radio, but I want the acceleration and the handling! The fun is in leightweight and acceleration, the 306 Rallye was the better GTI6 for a lesser price….
What is THE REALITY NOW? Electric? Where does the electricity come from? Is it functional? For milk floats and post vans, absolutely yes! For sport and endurance? Absolutely no!
Sorry, this subject is so tricky, but I tried to keep the best for last:
WHY SHOULD RALLY2 NOT GO INTO CROSS OVERS AS THE PUMA?
Well, my example with the Nissan and the Interwarmer named above. If the Puma has a too high Centre of Gravity, then Costumers deserve to see, otherwise WRC does not deserve to exist!
Which brands are in a crisis?
Ford cancels the K(i)a, Fiesta and Focus and is in a crisis?
VW cancels the Ups, Polo and Golf and is in a crisis?
NOW LISTEN, FIA:
Most sold car in Europe in 2021/22/23&early 24 (since over 3 years, no kidding) is the Dacia Sandero. In the top10 (still in 2024) you find also Renault Clio, Peugeot 208, Citroen C3, Vauxhall Corsa. Only a year ago the Fiesta was #1 in UK and the only reason it isn’t this year, well if you guess this then you tell Ford why they are bankrupt!
These are a dying species? No, dying are the very brands that left that competition!
I am not finished, yet. The Chinese are the problem? Honestly, I am not a fan of the Chinese, especially loving legends as MG, but one of the best selling Chinese cars in Europe right now is the MG 3, which is petrol or hybrid, the MG3 is not even available as full BEV nor planned as one, either! Sp who is dumb now? The Chinese have understood the game! Not only them, what is the model that Stellantis uses to revive the Lancia brand? The Ypsilon? Fiesta market frame by any chance? Lancia has plans with Gamma and Delta, none of them is an SUV and none of them is pure BEV!
I don’t know where to start and where to stop sorry…
So let’s take Rally2 goes spaceframe. Which contradicts the entier brand awareness vs product placement thing. We got the brand awareness already in F1, FE, WEC, Xtreme-E, Saudi beach buggy trying to navigate to dakar thingy and god knows what….
In Rally1 nobody came.
- Toyota is there, they will stay unless there is nobody to fight any more
- Hyundai is leaving
- Ford is not really there anyway.
If Rally2 turns spayceframe:
- Lancia is never coming, they started their idea with an Ypsilon (Fiesta/Polo segment) Rally4 for a reason
- Citroen is gone
- Hyundai is gone
- VW is gone
- nobody new is coming
- I can maybe see Skoda doing it, because they sold around 1000 Rally2 cars by now. But why did they do this? As a VW daughter, they can explain their expense to the VW marketing bords and they still even make money from it!
Most of all Skoda makes great road car markting from it, WHICH WILL BE LOST WITH SPACEFRAME!
Maybe Skoda is doing Rally2 Spaceframe, because Rally2 worked well for their Product Placement. But exactly then again, why would Skoda want to change a winning concept? They made around 1000 R5/Rally2 cars, Citroen did 200, Lancia shows interest, it is based on their base cars, why kill that?
If VW makes boring cars, if Nissan makes interwarmers, if Ford makes SUVs, well, pay for your stupidity! Don't be rewarded for it! It is not Citroen, Skoda, Lancia, Toyota, Subaru fault that their ideas are more interesting and more clever, they should be rewarded for it!
When there's a chance to get a decision wrong, rallying will take that choice. It's inevitable......... Another space-frame category will not attract anymore manufacturers......
It's almost like they're doing it on purpose 🤣
So are you for or against space-frame rally cars?
Seriously, it’s not hard to get parity between cars … use the F1 method: 1) standardised, fixed ratio gearbox (xtrak or whatever) and you can also use ballast as an equaliser. Standard rear wing and front splitter ) - also a wheel arch kit, -so that hoons cañ bolt them onto their road car to make it look cool (think Mk ll escort) The wheel arch kits would also allow for the wheelbase to be stretched/reduced to even up handling between models if needed.
The Puma isn't even that big. Yeah, it's a hideous blob shaped abomination but it's genuinely not much bigger than a Skoda Fabia, just lower it and add aero
Edit: And Crossovers HAVE been successful versus Rally2. The Subaru Crosstrek and Toyota CH-R built to AP4 spec have won rallies in the APRC versus Rally2 Fiestas and Rally 2 Fabias
Hadn't seen the Subaru before, thanks for the info! Dytko in Poland designed body panels for a CH-R for Cusco. There are so many options that could be used before going as far as space frames.
It's like they want to make protoype rally cars which is cool but if you are going to do that, JUST DO IT don't half ass it like Rally1. Absurd decision making in the rooms of the people in charge.
I'm against prototype rally cars I must say, as it goes against the very DNA of the sport. You are absolutely right though, the decision making process is all wrong. It feels like they are desperate and don't really know what to do.
Agree have an extreme class that is very open just control the power to weight ratio and elements of the drive train. You are likely to get many non automotive manufacturers involved look at Dakar
@@maximumattackrallyingthey need to find another partner. Ford is heading for oblivion. M sport will be dragged that way it they are not careful. They are already on the slide at the top tier at least.
millener talks like the puma is some enormous ungainly boat when it is millimetres larger than the fabia.
Yep. I think it's 60mm taller than a Fiesta, but half of that is in the suspension, which would all be changed anyway
Do please sit still in front of the camera. As for the state of rallying in 2024/25 I feel more certain than ever that the historics will continue to grow. Like it or not the sight and sound of Mk.1/2 escorts + assorted others is drawing just as many fans to the events - look at the RAC for example. Rallying lost it's way many years ago in the search for easy TV coverage and greater speed, at the expense of longer and tougher tests of stamina and car strength.
Think he b better puttin the money towards improving the rally 1 puma
Uh.....no Peg
The only space frame car we need is mr burtons 306 oh wait they banned that 😁
What Ive heard, WRC 2 is not on a piprline of WRC1 2027, its off course way too early to give any certain weight on rumors. Ketomaa(exWRC pilot) said in his podcast that WRC2 is not a platform for WRC1.
It's a tricky moment for production-based customer racing formulae. Not just Rally2, but all the classes below, as the current shift towards crossovers and electrification produces cars that aren't considered a direct match to existing rules.
So, where to go now? I say we race whatever is available and do the tweaks that may be needed to fit these cars. Also make something that reduces the dependence from manufacturers, like relaunching the Rally2 kit in a more attractive form.
You're right, there is no doubt that it is a difficult time. The automotive industry in general is facing some massive challenges right now, with legislation forcing them to fit additional safety systems, the whole EV thing, and numerous other issues.
I think your last point is a really interesting one - perhaps we need to look at how we homologate Rally2 cars and how involved the manufacturers need to be. Ralliart Finland and Holzer Motorsport made R5 versions of the Mitsubishi Mirage and Opel Corsa, but neither were allowed in the WRC because the manufacturers refused to support them. Maybe it's time to change that and let rally preparation companies homologate their own Rally2 cars?
Perhaps Rally will one day will be a classic only formula as I doubt many will want to compete or spectate all electric and just as importantly will all the hard working volunteers the sport relies on be perhaps to stand in the cold to make it happen.
@@maximumattackrallying FIA launched Rally5 kit a few months back, allowing independents to get in touch directly with national authority to obtain international certification. In Brazil, rallying is overshadowed by circuit racing in general, but we do have a growing number of Rally5-like cars based on local market models (Chevrolet Onix, Hyundai HB20, Volkswagen up!). As the entry level, it's definitely best served by allowing local solutions to flourish.
So, I think they should consider applying some of the same principles here. The original Rally2 kit (R4) was a cool concept, but teams still have to buy and bring the single provider spec parts over from Europe, then build them through authorized dealers. All that bureaucracy diminished the advantages that came with the FIA kit, plus the pandemic and the introduction of Rally3 eventually killed any momentum it had.
In the end, the team manager says "we aren't taking this car abroad, anyway" and goes for a regional rulebook build instead. Regional rules that, as others have mentioned, are already friendly to SUVs and even MPVs, without any big performance penalty.
Rally 2 car it,s really 90% different that a normal car ...the cost of a fiesta is 25000euros road car the rally 2 fiesta is 280.000 plus vat ....
So prices are very high even in rally 2 ...and this is just the cost of the car without any rims,parts,etc etc ...
I own a rally 4 clio and the car cost 110euros ....
Tyres are crazy expensive ,parts are all made for the rally 4 car you can not buy them in normal car shops ...
So its all very expensive.
Yes it is expensive but many more can afford 250k than 1m and more companies are capable of building them hence more entries.GP2 and 3 are eye wateringly expensive but there is no shortage of teams or drivers
Rocking backwards and forwards in front of your camera. Please make it stop !! Seriously, sit still and stop leaning into the camera.
And the all to frequent sighs/huffing and puffing, makes you increasingly difficult to take seriously.
Agree, Rally 1 probably needs to die, Rally 2 needs to up the horsepower to 380-400hp to make the cars exciting to watch and the current minimal R2 aero needs to be retained.
Realistically we need at least 6 to 8 manufacturers committed to running 3 cars per event for 3-5 years …
You don't need manufactures you need teams that are able to build and run competitive cars and look for sponsorship outside of the motor industry
I don't like sitting still 🤣 Seriously, I don't think I'm even moving that much? Just being animated as it's a topic I am passionate about...
Just to throw a spanner in here, if it’s affordable and comparable to the rest of the wrc2 cars as they stand now, the fans don’t see the space frame they see the car and ain’t bothered about what’s underneath, obviously Rich Millener is coming from a commercial stance and if it works then why not, and it’s the same for all manufacturers…and when they market a win, it doesn’t say “please note, space frame car”
There is NO SPACE at all for production based cars!!!!! It would kill rally for good, wake up the days of the Impreza, Escort Cosworth etc are GONE!
@@jonathangarbutt4682 I hate to break it to you, but every category apart from Rally1 is based on a production car 🤣 I am not advocating for cars like the Impreza or Escort Cosworth, I'm advocating for Rally2, which is a massive success
The GR Yaris is still going and has proven that people will still buy homologation specials. It just won the Rally 2 drivers championship too. The whole point in rallying is that we get cool cars that we can buy like the Yaris. These space frame cars aint selling Ford Pumas
Lack of fans and spectators will kill the sport for sure. Manufactures don't care about the sport they only care about selling products. No fans no marketing benefits. Car makers sponsor plenty of sports outside of motorsport rally need to look outside of the motor industry for support
@@fredericfuknchopin4552 But the cool GR Yaris you can buy was made with the experience they gathered from developing the Yaris WRC, which is effectively a purpose-built almost-a-million-dollar rally machine and categorically different than the production GR Yaris in question. That GR Yaris and the GR Yaris Rally2 are worlds apart as well, in components, vehicle dynamics, performance, etc. A car like the GR Yaris is Rally3-level at best, and there's no space for such cars at the top spot of the rallying world. They are too underwhelming driving technique-wise for the talent of such world-class drivers. Rally2 has space at the top, a beefed-up Rally2 even more, but the argument of "the link with the road car I can buy" is not relevant (in my opinion) in the modern times, since road cars are mostly FWD/AWD designed to be as easy as possible (thus safe) to drive, full of driving assists and permissive differentials; slow and boring. They are no longer exciting, nervous, and tricky machines like an Escort MkII back in the 70s/80s that you can put in a rally stage straight away and have a heck of a challenge and fun.
@@zwjna Rally cars have always been very different to the road cars whether group B, A or WRC. The fact is they were based on road cars that you could buy. Of course the Yaris is not the same as the WRC version just as an EVO 6 was nothing like the group A car. The fact is having production based cars means we get great cars like the Yaris or Evo.