Harvard's Secretive Admissions Process Unveiled in Court Documents
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Harvard’s admissions process has always been shrouded in secrecy, but a recent lawsuit is allowing the veil to be lifted. The WSJ’s Nicole Hong and Melissa Korn examined court documents to dig into some of the new findings. Photo: Getty Images.
A smart guy once told me "the US admissions process is just a glorified personality test" - now add racial bias into the mix, and the picture becomes more accurate
A smart guy said that.
GravityTricks
Besides the racial bias, aren't all job applications glorified personality tests? The main goal is often to get the employer to like you as an applicant. Some individuals get jobs just by knowing the right people (i.e. networking).
Why apply to go there if They are that racist?There are other good colleges as well
@@lStranger which is why the interview process is awful. I've seen too many people with a personality fail too much to give it any consideration. It's a poor indicator of anything.
Nathan Nguyen
Life is pretty unfair overall, it's important to find your own way of succeeding instead of just trying to do everything the right way.
The hosts look like they haven't slept in months.
Theyre very professional and it's a really good video.
Dab pens are strong asf now a days bro
Didn't sleep for months reviewing the documents
They were trying to get into Harvard.
I guess they should reveal secretive HOST selective process too
Harvard seems to be admitting that they only comb through applicants to find those who have already succeeded rather than to bring out the characteristics for success in anybody. This admission of incompetence in educating people or understanding the fundamentals of education is abhorrent and needs to be changed.
*sigh*
As a student applying to schools right now, I too find this element of college admissions quite frustrating...
Robert Evans Harvard is just a brand. Their goal is to perpetuate the brand and the money.
THANK YOU! Too many universities and entry-level jobs are at fault for this. They expect way too much of students and recent grads, so they brush aside all the great potential candidates just because they don't meet their incredibly strict criteria.
When these employers/admissions officers finally find someone who fills all of these boxes, they act surprised when said candidate acts uptight and entitled when they are tasked to do above-par work for sub-par pay. WELL WHO WOULD'VE THOUGHT???
Robert Evans Your claim makes no sense. Every single applicant can be seen to have potential. So how else would they determine who gets in? Thats where the already-present success comes in.
Max: One of us has been teaching electrical control systems at a well known Institute of Technology for 20 years and the other is you. Education is a process that brings out a person's capacity and capability. Filtering candidates on the basis of past performance does nothing to enhance their potential. Harvard could determine who gets into their programs based on student potential and determination.
It's hard to imagine Harvard using these personality tests, considering how some famous alumnis like Zuckerberg are essentially humanized Androids
nah he probably just paid his way in
@@noaheverett9647 He shapeshifted his way in he's reptillian
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Zuck didn't graduate. Neither did Bill Gates. Both were life of the Harvard parties. Not.
He's a drop-out LoL
This isn't just Harvard. I got an alumni interview with an Yale student, and when I tried to explain to her the frustration an Asian feels when their hard work is dismissed just because they are Asian, she looked at me with disgust. As if I had the audacity to complain for being Asian. Beach, I don't get some secret stat boost like a video because I am Asian.
second note:
Cant imagine how second generation asians feel. Must be suffocating.
She was white and couldn't relate
XxDemonicGamer
I mean that’s probably one of the stupidest times to complain about that though. It’s like a job interview. Don’t be negative or frustrated or complain, it reflects badly. It’s common sense. I don’t like it either but I don’t know what you were expecting.
Giannigiovful
You misunderstood his comment. He was frustrated by the fact that people attach his success to his race. They ignore that the fact that he genuinely worked hard for his position. The women was perpetuating the racist stereotype that Asians are biologically smarter than others.
XxDemonicGamer could it be that it’s not because someone is Asian? Could it be because Harvard is looking for a mix of important criteria and excellence in academics and testing is only one area? Is it possible that someone who is so driven to succeed might de-emphasize other qualities or characteristics in their development and that it actually costs them?
Stereotyping asians as boring and uninteresting just because they worked hard to get to those grades and extracurricular activities is dangerous. Would you say the same thing about a non-asian person who worked hard and wants to become a doctor? It is almost if you are not asian it is "wow hardworking, dilligent, self-disciplined" and if you are asian it is "meh, hardworking, so what?"
And hardworking=/= uncreative and boring. The problem is when you think of a person who is hardworking and asian, you automatically imagine a nerd who works hard just to please their parents, lacks social skills and is incapable of thinking outside the box. You can be hardworking AND an excellent scholar of the future. The admission officer needs to stop judging applicants by preconceived stereotypes .
Why did you bring black people into your discussion? Leave black people out of your mouth and use a different race.
@@lunayen i apologize for being ignorant.I should've said people of other race. My point was about asians being discriminated against, not about blacks getting special treatment. It was a bad example. My mistake
Most Asians are way well off compared to other groups that’s why
😫🙌🏻
lunayen prob because blacks get preferencial treatment then Hispanics.
When an institution views "quiet and hardworking" as a negative trait, maybe it's time to reassess the prestige attached to that institution.
As an African American woman that is married to a Korean man, I approve this message!!!
Good luck with that. Hardworking is a good trait, but quiet isn’t. They won’t contribute to the conversation.
So, takeaway is, Asians should start their own Ivy League colleges.
I mean we could. 🤔
They already have
Tsinghua iit
.
Rice University
That's how many colleges in Europe were started in the middle ages
In Australia, the Chinese make up under 10% of the Student population and over 50% of the intake in Engineering, Physical Sciences, Medicine etc. Entry criteria is by academic scores only. White students are heavily under represented in the STEM subjects but over represented in low status and easy degrees with low pay like the Arts Law etc. .
Is it not wayyy more interesting that it says "indistuinguisable from other Asian-Americans?" This suggests that the Asian American person in question is being compared solely to other Asian Americans and not the entire applicant pool, suggesting that Asian Americans are being treated differently.
Evan Hunt what is asian american ..indians r also asians ..
From what I've heard, applicants are put in specific "buckets" and compared to one another.
Arun Salwan asian Americans are people from Asia that live in america
I understand that it’s unfair but its not truly racist because they dont reject ALL asians. Its not that they dont want asians in their school, they just dont want too many. They want the campus to be diverse, otherwise ivy league schools will be known as asian schools. Before you attack me for stereotyping a whole race as “smart”, obviously there are many more smart asian students than all the other races for harvard to have put a quota/limit on how many asians they accept.
@@megrocks3026 that’s still discrimination. They’re not accepting Asians based on race, not merit. They’re doing it so they can favour other races in hopes of being more diverse which to some may be a good reason, but they’re still excluding Asians based on race.
Your judged on what language your neighbors speak... but you cant control who buys the house down the street from you.....
While you cant, your wealth does. A lot of the families of applicants will be living in expensive or even gated communities and that lends itself towards a much smaller (and whiter) group of americans.
you're*
Just buy a house in a rich white neighborhood
Uhh, they don't rate that as a negative. If you live in a community with lots of various languages and you're making straight A's that's a positive. This video just says they take it into consideration, not HOW they take it in to consideration. I don't know what college would think being fluent and exposed to multiple languages is a bad thing.
@As Cra Have no clue what you are trying to say.
So if I want to go to Harvard I need to get straight A' s, have a personality akin to Jesus (at least on paper), and not be reclusive or boring
Sounds fair, for it being one of the worlds most elite universities
@Albert Brennaman no it's not fair, because reclusiveness is correlated with intelligence and academic success. Having parties and studying don't go hand and hand.
Not to mention there's no evidence that extraversion or being "fun" is a useful trait from an academic standpoint. It's convenient that Harvard would suddenly adopt this new standard that happens to satisfy their diversity agenda.
All that OR have rich parents.
Fellipe Fischerlnn n m m , m mmbmb mb ,..
B ln .
Also not be Asian
I don’t understand why US colleges want to know all this information... In Europe no one asks you about your religion or ethnicity, because it is irrelevant - in my opinion, accepting someone with worse academic achievements then other applicants just for the sake of diversity is just as bad as keeping someone out because they do not belong to specific race or religion...
It's for demographic purposes
Europe is much much MUCH more homogenous, so stfu!
Yes I studied in Europe for grad school and all they ask for is, grades, were you in the top 1% of your previous class? And An undergrad research paper. The class still ended up having diversity.
here in ireland you get an applicant number and apply to college courses by filling them in on a form and sending it to the central applications office
they pick who gets a place from the highest point applicant in descending order, and the lowest points to get into that course are published as a guideline
@@MilitanT07 maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that we have diverse universities...
Harvard denied the allegations, and they denied the alligator!
They probably call good bad and light dark over there in the shadow of the ivory tower of babel.
Trump also denied the allegations.
Good they do not get them into Harvard. 😂 Had one of them as professor he is the worst ! they act like not human ! some type of 🐍.
With all due hate ☺️🌹
wedge tail eagle how do they cheat the system to get good grades? do tell; im very interested in how I can get in on that system cheating and why non-asians can’t
ruiqi22 as an Asian I agree
give huge donation you will get admission
c. lince true
*cough* Kushner *cough*
@@lucyanm6361 lol
🤣
the doctor one really bothered me because I don't need a doctor with a great personality, I just need a doctor smart enough to save my life and others who are in need
Well yes, but no... Doctors and nurses or any medical employee should have a fitting personality when in contact with patients. The psychological part of medicine shouldnt be underestimated.
So I understand that personality is an important factor for the admissions.
But I do not wanna defend what Harvard is doing here! Being Asian should not change the expected personality and those comments are clearly not OK.
Well not exactly, the reason I trusted my surgeon sm with my life was bc of his charm and personality without that I wouldn't have been able to move forward with the procedure. There are many capable nurses and doctors but the ones that stand out to me the most are the ones who were rlly good at their job while having personality! I have also replaced boring doctors, u must have charisma in that field if u want to gain trust from ur patients.
@@joeshp3642 well there is shortage of doctors and it's kind of unfair that the admission process tends to automatically label asian people based on stereotypes. In a life threatening situation where a doctor is needed right away, I wouldn't have time to consult with the doctor.
@@cozettesk yeah I agree about the stereotypes being unfair but if you don't stick out to an admissions officer because there was lack of personality in their opinion, that doesn't mean you will never make it as a doctor. That just means you weren't what that school was looking for.
@@joeshp3642 The admissions officers are using stereotypes to judge an applicant. They're labeling certain kids as "quiet" just cause there Asian, not because its their personality.
Does it mean then, that Asian Americans who graduated from Harvard will be first in line to land a job ? Since they're supposed to be so good that even Harvard can't find any faults with them?
They are always the first in line to get a job.
Companies privy to this policy will be wise to hire Asians who still were accepted despite this bias over people accepted due only to their skin color
In your dreams maybe. Employers treat Asians the same way Harvard does.
Lesbian Amazon Sister Asians making more than their white peers is a myth. Asians tend to have more people in their households than whites, so it seems like they make more.
lunayen you clearly have a bias against Asians. Your comments are everywhere
Why is race in the picture of college admission? Shouldn’t the process be based on everything else besides race?
Meric Ekinci These kids are Asian American. “American”
@@greenlight2323 isnt your name turkish? That's like saying we shouldn't allow turks to study abroad and "steal" resources from other western unis to take back to a country with a pro-islam government that doesnt uphold western values. Turkey doesnt exactly have 'freedom' either. Stop pretending you're white you have some insecurity issues.
@@benjaminlee1972 I am a kurd. The Name i have is by force. You shouldnt sacrafice the US only because 500 Chinese students will get Hurt by their Feelings. You dont have any clue how bad this is. Go and watch some documentations about China and their Student Programms in Europe. They are destroying the West and you are talking about thousand peoples Feelings.
It’s funny because the reason why they do that is because of race lol. colleges prefer to allow African Americans and Hispanics into colleges because of the low count. They say that they want more diversity other than just whites and asians. Most conservatives favor that colleges shouldn’t do that because it’s bias and unfair but a lot of liberals are for affirmative action because it makes college more accessible.
Then every college will be full of Asians and whites
What about rich buying their way into Harvard?
Kushner wasn't even in the top 10th percentile of his class, but his father donated 1 million dollars and GUESS who was the only one in his class to get in??? Money is powerful
At this rate might Harvard might as well start selling degrees.
That's a huge problem we have seen in the last 40 years. Charles Murray goes into it further. He said it used to be said that there were a lot of smart people and a few rich people there, only now it's switched. The wealthy pay private tutors for their kids to pass the SAT's. The thing is that was originally for low income high IQ people.
thats basically in everything, a reality that needed to be accepted. The Rich people todays are the Aristocrats of old days.
@@asahel980 Eh not really. We've had low income people be helped by the system before people just gave up on the system. So don't give up! We don't need apathetic people in modern times. We need people who have vision and aptitude to get things done.
A boring or indistinguishable personality should not be a factor. Most 18-year olds have no idea who they are. Their personalities aren’t fully formed; they haven’t yet found their voice or calling in life. A good college experience helps them to blossom.
yeah but they're looking for the few who have matured at age 18.
@@abdallababikir9154they be looking for already successful kids with rich parents
The two reporters appear to be smart and hardworking yet uninteresting and indistinguishable from other reporters. sorry i had to.
I quite agree. I'm asian btw, and somehow I still get where the comment came from. It must be the general culture (not everyone but most asians have commonalities). Having fun such as going to parties, night outs are usually seen as something "bad" while staying at home and studying is enforced as "good traits". This is why some asians are socially awkward but have good academic standing because
studying is what we are forced to do most of the time. Emotional and social intelligence are not equally prioritized as the conventional academic intelligence. Say you are very book smart but does not have the social chops to be in the elite circle, how successful can you be then than those who have both? I think Harvard looks for a well rounded individual (Academic, Social and Emotional) rather than the one dimensional book smart people.
3:33 "smart and hardworking yet uninteresting and indistinguishable FROM OTHER ASIAN-AMERICAN APPLICANTS"
"from other asian-americas applications" is not highlighted...
Which means it is a generalized stereotype
Seriously, can't believe they missed that. Kind of a big omission.
Bc you know what they say.... "All asians look.......... Like people from all different races." Highlighting it would have completed the stereotype, einstein
Realize that is NOT a direct quote from the rules or the process. It is a conclusion based on the other quotes surrounding that sentence (looks like a valid one). Will be nice to see more guts of their admissions out.
propaganda, thats how it works
Dougherty and Stuyvesant are the best schools in SF and NYC and have fully merit based acceptance and are 75% asian and 20% white. If Harvard was similarly merit based it would have similar demographics.
Eric Swenson thats a terrible comparison-those schools’ acceptances are purely based on numerics. They dont take into account the most important factors of Harvard’s admission, which are extracurriculars and essays. I know this because I go to TJHSST, a school that outranks both of the ones you mention.
Big Schlong Max oh yea yea
@@jean-baptistesay6941 Actually, it is not, since the prevailing argument against AA is typically that black/latino kids with lower academic/merit scores are taking slots away from asian/white kids with higher test scores. I have never heard someone who was opposed to AA ever mention the extracurricular activities or essays of the black/latino kid. Race is the first thing that is brought up in these arguments.
That's what they are afraid of. They pretend to care about black and brown people, but affirmative action is really about protecting white people from competition.
@@jean-baptistesay6941 hey dumbass your school is 66% asian and 25% white and shifting towards a higher percent of asians at a rate of 12% more asians per year: www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/student-population-at-thomas-jefferson-shifts-significantly/2013/04/21/f04446b6-a6d9-11e2-b029-8fb7e977ef71_story.html?.67906262312e
I knew it... Where do I sign up for the class action lawsuit?
ro pro the trial’s not over yet. If there is a class action suit it’ll be after this trial.
We are sorry to inform you that you are too bland to be apart of this class action lawsuit.
We recommend you fix this deficiency before re-applying.
(Note: There will be $75.00 non-refundable application process fee. If you cannot afford this fee then contact our financial assistance office where we can assist you in finding a loan that will haunt you for the rest of your life.)
I am Sure the communist Party will pay your lawsuit.
Meric Ekinci ???
ro pro I wouldn’t sign up for it, kind of a waste to try and go against Harvard imo. But take a try at it if you really want, I just wouldn’t bet on it at all.
You'll never know how I got these likes.
But why not interesting or distinct as a human instead of interesting compared to Asian peers?
The have quotas of each race.
*illegal intensifies*
@@PeterWW420 quotas are illegal
I agree with your statement. It’s even more shocking when you realize that Asian Americans comprise only about approximately 1% of the total population of America. Yet, they would rather a Vietnamese American compete with a Chinese American or Indian American to get that one coveted spot at Harvard.
I chose a Canadian university, and most Canadian universities are public and they largely look at your grades only.
Now some have criticized the Canadian admission process for being too simplistic.
Those who've said this are either Ivy League alumni who sit on their school's interview boards, on a power trip or have questionable benefits to reap from applicants, or education consultants who make money out of helping parents to navigate through US schools' subjective and convoluted admission process. Needless to say, these consultants have little money to make from Canadian schools which don't have such processes.
Let's be honest, like SAT and university rankings, the US school admission system is a money game set up to satisfy a conglomerate of people's specific interests.
Harvard university is only one of the best because people make it the best. If people I'll stop applying or going to that university it will not be the best. Is like the brand apple just overrated.
mco Good luck making that happen, people are always going to want to go to Harvard, not that I’d recommend it lol
Harvard ranks no1 in business and many other majors. the students never chose the best courses.
thats why the UC schools are ranking higher and higher each year with zero discrimination or consideration against asians.
Your absolutely blowed.🤣 you said Harvard is overrated. The person that programmed your keyboard on your computer probably went to an Ivey league school.
@@jeromemushi2442 You didn't even spell ivy right and you're calling someone else stupid for pointing out that Harvard succeeds primarily on reputation.
Affirmative action at work, amiright?
And no, this isn't just an objective truth about Asians. Just because you've met some bland Asian students in your time doesn't make the stereotype true. Passion, hard work, and quietness are not mutually exclusive. And we have an outright admission of Asian students being held to a different personality standard than other students, so this is a fault of Harvard admissions rather than of the Asian applicants.
Asians are cool af here in San Diego, the lit parties kickbacks and functions they have going in SDSU and UCSD is well known, it really didn't make sense to me why "boring" is a stereotype, idk, some people are just shut ins and haven't had real life experiences with people I guess.
santa in the house I looked up the demographics and to be honest in terms of race demographics, the only people affected are white students and black students, as the Latino student population usually stays around the same when compared to universities to where there is affirmative action. The Asian population more than doubled, but like you said, that might be because a lot non-Asian Americans come to these universities as well, so a lot of these demographics probably include Asians that are on student visa.
@Luke Drinking from Alien Titty
Many people think that affirmative action is racism. Asians are not a minority in academics, they're really not different from the white population. If you consider it racism to consider racial quotas and deferentially accept certain races over Asians, then you think affirmative action is racism.
Journalism requires going through dossier of paper to find out minute details that people with power use to do their dirty laundry. It requires a lot of reading and spending at homes or offices. Right now when a chunk of population detests journalists and journalism in general, I feel they deserve respect and appreciation.
I was surprised when I heard that this lawsuit was contentious because I've always thought it was just common knowledge that Asian Americans are discriminated against in the college admissions process. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought of it like this:
When colleges implemented affirmative action policies in their admissions processes, the size of the pool of admitted students didn't significantly change. Thus, it is fair to continue to view the admission process as a zero-sum game. For example, considering all else equal, the acceptance of one student due to excellent grades necessarily implies the rejection of another due to inferior grades. If we apply this to race, then obviously some group of students will be discriminated against as a direct result of affirmative action. If one student's application value is increased because he/she belongs to a certain race, then another student's application value is necessarily decreased because he/she does not belong to that race, since they both can't get in in every scenario where all other application components are equal. From my observations and research, this group is Asian Americans.
With that said, I do believe there is tremendous value in the diversity offered from affirmative action policies. I think effectively balancing that value with its inadvertent negative consequences is a tricky problem that is far from a clear solution.
I also thought it was common knowledge. I mean my parents always tell me to be as outgoing in extracurricular activities as possible because Asians are more likely to be rejected.
Wow the mention of a zero-sum game, nicely said and very true :)
The problem is whites and asians are not equally 'down-graded'. They helped the blacks but are now kicking out specifically the asians instead of all the other races. It is white supremacy plain and simple. You know what, its great because we get to keep the best talents in Asia instead of having them all going to America.
If there really was diversity, Harvard should have a higher percentage of Black and Latino people but they still are the minority on campus. It does not accomplish what it is supposed to do, it only bars Asians from getting in.
Sick. Anyone with an ounce of self-respect should stay away from such admission processes.
it'll be interesting if all asian americans boycotts harvard and no one apply there in future
Vmonster in a perfect world
The Liberals are saying Asian students are over represented and should only make up 5% so it's equal to their % population in the US. SO WHY is the NBA 95% black, black people are way over represented in the league. Therefore we need affirmative action to reduce black players to 13% of the NBA in order to represent the demographics of the US and increase diversity. They don't have an answer to this response, they're okay with racism as long as it benefits them.
Kostas Antes but did they produce the billionaires or did the most children of rich parents apply for the brand and get admitted there...?
ruiqi22 oooooo thats a fair point
Frank Wercinski Exactly. You go to Ivy league schools to get your foot into one of these exclusive clubs. Honestly you can teach yourself everything that they teach you in universities for FREE. What do go there for is the brand and the networks.
Not much of a revelation.
BrainXTC Yep. Nothing I didn’t know before. C’mon spill some tea lol
It is confirmed now, though.
Where can I find the documents
Find what court they were filed in and then the official government court website would have them since they are public record. Honestly just google around you will run across them in a few minutes.
If you could please send a link... Its not coming up
I FOUND IT apps.washingtonpost(dot)com/g/documents/local/evidence-in-harvard-admissions-trial/3248/
@@user-ik2by4ml8d I cant find it
I want to be very clear on this because I believe that Harvard and other Universities use this method to get a diverse class not only in terms of race, but also passion and drive. What people really should be investing their time on is the unfairness that circulates around legacy children or students whose parents “donate” to have their children get into a prestigious school like Harvard, because to be quite honest most of those kids aren’t qualified they’re just rich.
Bruh this is pretty stupid. Colleges should evaluate admissions purely based off of merit, with no race in play whatsoever.
no because then only the rich communities would be able to get accepted as they have the resources for expensive tutors. Think for a second, why do you think they consider family income
The way I interpret it ... “personal rating” is just the fudge factor to help achieve what they already decided is the desired mix of students they want.
Yup it's just a cover for them to discriminate lawfully.
It's literally Harvard Law, of course they evaluate an individual's character and personality in addition to their academic and professional achievements. There are plenty of qualified people on paper, but a person really has to be the full package if they're to be admitted to a top tier law school. I truly hope Harvard isn't bias in their selection of candidates, that would be a really unforgivable thing to do for an institution devoted to justice and law.
It’s horrible that Harvard is doing this but I think the really sad thing is how many Asian-American parents stifle their children’s dreams and project their wishes onto the kid, rather than letting them find out what they want in life
If employers stop flocking to Ivey league career fairs and exclude looking at what school a job applicant went to, the Ivey league schools wouldn't be where they are
Universities should not be stereotyping applicants, but I do agree that there is more to an applicant than their marks. The 21st century workplace is looking for qualities like collaboration, an accurate assessment of one's own strengths, creative problem-solving, interest in learning new things, and innovation. A well-rounded university applicant should not only be academically capable but should also demonstrate some of these competencies as well. Students that put marks above all else and sacrifice opportunities in the pursuit of a perfect grade are missing out on way too many opportunities to develop socially, emotionally, and cognitively. Of course, none of this is unique to any one culture, and it's disappointing to see some of these anecdotes from the admissions department of a very prestigious institution.
thinking/wishing before reading comment section
*please dont make this about black students*
*please dont make this about black students*
Reads comment.
*inconclusive*
These videos always end up being a diatribe about black students in the comment section...even though only like 2 black students get admitted in a class of 500...but they are the reason YOU didnt get into harvard or princeton
I don’t know enough information about affirmative action to have a strong opinion on it, but (in Harvard’s case) why do people think black students are taking other races spots? They make up such a small percentage, so black student admissions shouldn’t have that big of an effect. Also it seems that people don’t think the black people Harvard accepts are intelligent enough to be there, like they’re not going to let in someone with low credentials in for the sake of diversity, y’all should at least know that.
Ruth A they take up a huge chunk they don’t deserve, almost all black students accepted to prestigious universities are student athletes given easy majors and paper classes
Bokononist I know student athletes don’t necessarily have the stats required for top ranked universities, but I’m not too sure there are so many that they take up a “huge chunk”. Also how would you know if they don’t deserve admission or not?
Actually black students make up 15.2% of Harvard's latest admitted class:
college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
So blacks are actually well over-represented a Harvard, since blacks make up only 12% of the population. So it is not true at all that blacks only make up 2 of 500. Now of course, white students are also admitted into Harvard ahead of asian students who have higher scores. So this is not asians against blacks. This is asians against whites, blacks and hispanics.
black students are given a bonus of 230 points and Asians are penalized 50 points.
Why is there even race involved in applications?
Because minorities wouldn't get in and everyone would be outraged
@@thenosey They literally would, as they have done way before ''race'' was considered you moron
I have had no idea about secrecy in admission process of Harvard. In India,the secrecy is maintained regarding conducting entrance exams, setting up and moderating questions (so that no leak happens), interviews (as there is no system to verify interview performance objectively) and of course checking of entrance exam papers.But now a days most of the exam boards publish model answers and through Right to information act someone can ask for his or her answer scripts to be shown. In some privately run institutions, suspicious admission process did occur in professional courses,but today our govt and court have been able to block the loophole in many respect.
But at the same time our constitutionally mandated affirmative actions admit dumb students excluding the goods in the name of promoting social justice.This is a real problem as you will find so many low quality students in our leading institutions.Discriminating goods, admitting bads to promote diversity are unjustified as it promotes another kind of social injustice.
Even though,the argument of Harvard university is to some extent correct,as Asian students are mostly marks scoring machine but that doesn't mean they are unsocial. Asia itself is very much colorful and diverse in terms of socioreliguous occasions.The background behind rushing towards high grades is ingrained in Asian minds as in most Asian countries good higher educational institutions and jobs are too competitive as the selection rate hardly goes beyond 1 or 2%(in rare cases it may go up to 5%) due to over population and limited resources.
Im a businessman and have conducted business with ALL groups the world over. My worst clients BY FAR have been Asian. They have no sense of fairness or honor. You have to protect yourself carefully when doing business with them.
Easy, just ask your rich dad to speed up the admission process
I always knew zip code and percentage of english speaking students went into it. I remember visiting Havard one day and asking a very wealthy parent how their children got in, without going too much into detail they explained they had access to a rubric.
What's rubric?
Utterly entertaining.
My uncharitable and unhindered biases regarding this is that Harvard has found an alternate route to allow for a certain type of discrimination that one might say was unfounded, but restraining that suspicion with open-mindedness, I can imagine their admissions office shares a vision of a quintessentially "well-rounded student", with a significant tool kit of intangible qualifiers. I won't say which one I'm leaning towards, but I will say I tend to have a misanthropic outlook and I wouldn't be surprised if it were the former.
I‘m so lucky all I needed to make it into law school is a copy of the results of my A-Level exams.
@Chenath he means to say he’s British and doesn’t have to deal with this cluster fuckery of a system
Why do they even ask for your race upon application. They should ask after acceptance.
Come on people, Harvard is an elite school. Being smart and hardworking is not good enough for them. You have to show that when you graduate you will live up to the Harvard brand. I'm almost 100% positive that those Asian kids who got rejected thinking they were being discriminated against did not demonstrate elite qualities. People need to understand that top schools are top because they are able to attract top talents, NOT because they are really good at converting ordinary people into talents. If you are destined for great things, you will get there no matter what school you end up attending.
yes!! finally a comment that speaks sense, istg i worked so hard all my life so i can get into harvard and reading these comments makes me feel like my hard work was all for nothing. thankss!! u made my day :D
How can you evaluate personal traits like maturity, kindness, open-mindedness, and likability of someone based on a few-minute long interview? Those are traits hard to evaluate even after knowing someone for months. I think it is absurd to have those as college admission criteria in the first place. The professional traits are easier to assess in a few minutes, such as academic scores, extracurricular activities, and interview questions. But personal traits?? How is that a criteria in the first place?
Seems very thorough.. they are doing due diligence
I'm baffled Harvard hasn't argued that, as a tertiary institution in the United States, their admissions criteria are based not only on the individual suitability and capability of candidates but also on the net amount of positive externalities accruing to American society as a whole. It’s clear there are significant net benefits accruing to American society by admitting an African American or Hispanic American at the expense of an Asian American in terms of, for instance, reduction in poverty, drug use and violent crimes.
This is what happens across the board for medical school admissions in this country. They even have terms like ORM and URM to see which minority fits the bill.
Chinese culture raises children who work hard to game the academic system and achieve high test scores for the sake of getting into a good college and landing a stable, lucrative job.
Harvard’s legacy isn’t built by people who want a stable job and not rock the boat, it’s built by brilliant and curious minds, leaders with brains and a backbone of steel, entrepreneurs and scholars who go where no person has gone before. If I were an admissions officer for a school like Harvard, I wouldn’t take cookie-cutter hard working but slave of the Chinese parochial culture kids that come my way.
That’s not to say all Chinese kids are this way. This video has portrayed a portion of the admissions process that would feed the anger of Asian Americans who feel they’ve been cheated, but it’s not like Asians in general are not accepted Into Harvard.
@@xdlr22In your comment, you made two assumptions about what Harvard admissions and I are assuming....I said Chinese because I am Chinese, and Asian would be too broad a group to write on
Filipino is Asian too
This is why you have to apply to the UC’s. Racial quotas, etc. are banned in California (as well as in 7 other states), plus as a public institution everything is transparent. Also, if you’re a resident it’s much cheaper
low quality people and residential life too
Its so interesting that as a black applicant, I was told that its all about your personality in college interview.
It's because the bar is set a bit lower for black applicants. Usually if you an average performer, you can still beat out other applicants so long as you seems like a good person. Not gona say if that's an ethical thing, I'm just holding up the mirror here.
First time I'm watching a WSJ. Good work on covering up these topics in a rational manner.
As an asian american, the majority of Asians being boring is true. It’s ingrained into our culture and upbringings to do well in school and only have extracurriculars to put on a resume. As a result, I can see why this can be construed as the boringness seen by Harvard. Think outside the box and don’t be afraid the rattle the cage should be lesson for asian Americans out there or sadly you’re just another cookie cutter
then they will say Asian are wild, too risky and don't fit the norm. Harvard/the ivies get federal subsidies as institutions of higher learning ( therefore along with the federal laws) not some social clubs or fronts for the elites .
I mean, I kind of get where Harvard is coming from. I don't think it's right, and it should change, but I get what they're trying to do. They don't just want kids whose parents forced them through life, and they want kids who think out-of-the-box, and the kids who only did honors and AP classes thoughtout school might not have that. But still, it should change
There is a reason why Harvard is one of the best schools in the world. Their admissions screening is part of why it’s so successful. If you don’t meet their stringent criteria then you don’t get in. Bash Harvard all you want but it’s as simple as that.
This doesn't seem racist. How else is Harvard supposed to use the personal essay and letters of recommendation without using some sort of scale? It makes sense that a personality score is needed or else it wouldn't make sense to have the aforementioned components as part of the application. In addition, not having a personality scale fails to acknowledge the different environments that students endured throughout their life. I can guarantee you that the students that get let in over "more qualified" applicants is mostly due to the ability to do well in school but not quite up to the level of the more qualified applicants but did it in a much shittier environment.
Literally every University does this...
@@autumnskies567 You Again.... Just explain to me why there should be Affirmative Action? Why do you want to keep it? You're bashing Asians in every comment and I want to know why.
I’m an asian student studying in one of the top university in The Netherlands sometimes there’s a discrimination towards grading in the group projects against asian and yeah this is the world that we living in, it never goes away
They're mad that Ivy Leagues want people who show accomplishments in humanities and the arts. But the fact is, by neglecting other aspects of their lives and dedicating everything to doing well on standardized tests, students are scoring higher than they actually deserve to based on their intelligence, competence, and overall work ethic. Really promising individuals will be accomplished in a broad range of areas. Harvard wants people that will actually be able to take that 1st class education and do something useful with it, not someone who's just going so that they can wear a Harvard sweatshirt and brag to their friends.
Harvard, you're doing it wrong. We Asians are one of the most generous people to those we love and respect. Asians can be your biggest contributors and donors if you treat them right. We know you love money, Harvard.
Rizuchan no you’re not. I live in Asia. This place is awful. Unless drinking until you drop is your thing.
@@imtalkingwithapos No one's stopping you from leaving, pos.
I have to say this: aren’t many Asian parents raising their kids to go a certain direction academic wise? Having high standards and wanting them to get a good and respectable job? Not really taking into account or considering what their son or daughter may really like or want to do even if it’s not like a major that could gives them a high chance of good paying respectable job?
Could it be that perhaps they Harvard staff see through this and they wants students who really are passionate about what they are pursuing?
Do they really like the majors they are pursuing?
I’m not saying that all Asians aren’t like this but if one is not really passionate about their or really like or are interested in what they are studying then perhaps they could come of as bland....
I say this from personal experience .. I’m not Asian but I feel if I had really wanted to major in what I did perhaps I would have been more successful interesting person people in that field and I would have done more in what I studied..
If I was passionate in my area of study maybe I would have made more of an impact , worked in lab, participate in conferences , join certain clubs and be very active in them ..
Rizuchan no one’s inviting me either. It’s not just Harvard. Noone wants to stay, everyone wants to leave this part of the world.
Rizuchan seriously, we all know Harvard and the like love Alumni donations.
Why would it matter if my parents went to an Ivy League
Upbringing
Cuz then you won't have a sob story!
There is NO reason race is a factor in admissions. Socioeconomic status is far more indicative of who is in need compared to race.
This school didn't deserve Rory.
Definitely ALL Asians don't fit that stereotype, but how about the population of Asians that applied to Harvard? Do they? No one here has the facts on that population except Harvard. Anyone can work hard and get a 4.0, especially if you're in the middle or upper class and can get a private tutor and payed help. Also, they look for people who can contribute to the atmosphere and environment of their campus in an immeasurable way. Most high ranking schools look beyond grades because of that. That's what essays and/or interviews are for. More people than Harvard can admit have perfect SAT scores and 4.0s, and you should have developed a personality during your formative years as well as worked hard. They're trying to push out leaders.
They need to be an East Asian movement then, if you don’t shout, nobody listens. This is unfair but from observation it’s very true
Unfortunately Asians are too quiet... they don’t whine enough for others to really care about them.
Asians are least likely to participate in politics sadly. That means, Asian problems go ignored! Even if they whine, they do not constitute a significant amount of the population for people to care. Think about it. Politicians pander to Hispanics and blacks, never to Asians.
Trade war becomes Education war ?
Kopi tongkat ali satu!
No, Chinese Americans are not Chinese. It wouldn't happen. Even though Chinese applicants get discriminated even more than Chinese Americans.
interesting comment
Stupid comment
What do you mean?
This is because of affirmitive action. Ethnicity shouldn't be considered at all
its fraud. the in person interviewers liked the kids and found them to be charismatic but the admissions people who never met the kids gave them poor personality scores intentionally. its obvious what happened here. harvard should just own up to what they did.
The funny thing to think about is that the world’s population is made of more than 60% of Asians. And we have to be put into one category that is sometimes an expectation. All of this stuff is overwhelming. I understand that they are doing this for diversity on their campus but 60% of us. I mean from what I think is correct there are still quite a lot of Harvard that are Asians. So I understand both sides and have been reading these comments but can’t decide to hate Harvard or support them but who cares I’m just one person right. I want equality but how can we truly measure it if we all think differently.
Comprise, but in today's PC culture that's harder to come by.
where can i obtain those documents?
I like Harvard more now. Not only do they value hard work, which anyone with effort can get good grades, but they judge on character, creativity, and how sociable you are. I should have applied.
That woman on the right looks like she spent 3 all nighters reading every page in that box
I’ve been glad that people are exposing the admission process and the discrimination of Asian Americans but unfortunately this video was a let down. I didn’t really learn anything new and in fact when you pause the video where they highlight the description of an applicant, the words next to the highlighted portion say in comparison to other Asian Americans... stop degrading journalism and show the whole thing.
My crush from middle school got accepted to Harvard. She's Chinese too. She's extra special!!
@Critical Black Race Hippo I think she had a near perfect SAT score. She was in band, which is how I met her, and seemed like a well rounded student in general which is what Harvard is looking for I'm assuming.
@@michaelsaenz380 I crushed on a chinese girl in middle school too, but she was an idiot
@@2FadeMusic are you sure
Of course the admissions committee full of white men prefers Asian women over Asian guys.
At 3:32 below the highlighted parts, Harvard stated that "their race [asian] is RARELY seen as a positive factor in the chances of admissions. By contrast, admission officers often emphasize the race/ethnicity of African-American and Hispanic applicants as a positive factor and a reason to admit an applicant."
This is clearly discrimination. Good to know what it takes to go to Harvard. Harvard lowered the barrier to entry for these groups, gives them bonus points while other groups experience a deduction, and gives them preferential treatment in all areas.
Aren't you stereotyping all African-Americans and Hispanics by saying none of them can make it to Harvard on their own merits.
You’ll never hire blacks and Hispanics from Harvard cause they must have gotten there only cause of their race? That’s fucked up how can you talk about Asian discrimination and then blatantly stereotype blacks and Hispanics by claiming they can’t get to Harvard on their own merits??
Calm down. No 13 year old in the RUclips comments is hiring any Harvard grads unless there’s an antro major that also nannies
The Liberals are saying Asian students are over represented and should only make up 5% so it's equal to their % population in the US. SO WHY is the NBA 95% black, black people are way over represented in the league. Therefore we need affirmative action to reduce black players to 13% of the NBA in order to represent the demographics of the US and increase diversity. They don't have an answer to this response, they're okay with racism as long as it benefits them.
This post is so ironic lol
Looks like a lot of BS about these argumnts. Expecting to see similiar video for every group of people in the US.
Okay so how is being a hard worker contradictory to being an outstanding scholar? Hard work and the patience for it is a quality of an outstanding scholar.
Latinos, African Americans, native Americans and islanders are the groups that Harvard should really be trying to admit more of.
I don’t know what’s racial about: hard working but indistinguishable. A school like Harvard requires more than just hard work...
Yes they need celebrities not smart hard people cause that’s too boring.
_>"Smart and hardworking yet uninteresting and indistinguishable"_
I'm sorry if that offends you, but this is spot on for most Far East Asians...
BeamingSplendor Being smart and hardworking is not enough for today’s competitive world. Charisma and socializing abilities are what separate a CEO from an employee.
@@xMiso12x absolutely, they want high IQ and EQ basically, that is easy to get indeed, but why make this racial anyway? Why 'indistinguishable from other asian americans'? Why are them being put into groups and judged from these groups instead of overall? Why even make these groups after all... I mean, do tall people have to be indistinguishable from other tall people too? Do they keep track of how on average muslims, eldery, disable, only childs, millionaires, etc behave, and judge them based on that? Why of all the similarities to judge people from, why race? And if this isn't consider racism, what is it consider then?
@@xMiso12x who told you they have to be CEO ? tons of scientists are weirdos. why do they need so much Charisma to be a doctor? Plus, how can you judge a person just based on a paragraph ? How could you determine a person's life in their 17s and tell them you are not becoming CEO ? If you just want to decline someone, you can always find some execuses to do so.
Harvard is looking for future Barack Obama’s, trump, Elon musk, or even Jack Ma’s (Chinese). If you meet minimum criteria for grades they then look for leadership qualities and charisma. It’s entirely possible that a person with top 1% SAT does not have these qualities. It’s entirely possible many of these are Asian. It’s not stereotyping when they use personal interviews, essays, resume, and letters of recommendations to make this determination.
this is why being half-black is a blessing, you can always check "african-american"
you get the benefits of being in a catered world towards you without being discriminated because you're not 100% black
I love how the WSJ called out Harvard for calling Asians boring, but put the two most boring hosts together to talk about it
This is literally the suppression of a minority based on race...
Does Harvard also support what Donald Trump stands for?
Donald Trump is literally against this.
Great piece! Thank you for bringing this up. I realize that Harvard wants the best, but really? You are going to discriminate "untalanted" because they are weren't lucky enough to grow up in a society that values talent rather than the ability to work hard? At the end of the day, no one person is talentless.
And thank you for looking real (read as look like me) ladies. At least somebody on youtube does.
Imagine suing a school because you have been an academic robot your whole life without a personality. This video doesn't do more than gloss over that the firm's argument is mainly backed by Asian-American's on average better-standardized test scores and high school GPAs and how that quantitative superiority should correspond to acceptance rates for them.
The hollistic review process, which you will hear about at every college you visit, is looking for your real personality to make sure you will contribute to the positive environment of the campus and not just be like "I studied, I memorized, reward me."
I'm not saying at all that this is a description of asian-americans, but this is likely the reasoning for admission decisions regardless of race.
A college doesn't have to accept a bland student just because their test scores are amazing, and that goes for every race.
You do realize that saying a certain race is bland and has no personality is stereotyping? The whole no personality thing is just a trick to make it seem like racial discrimination wasn't part of the decision.
how do you KNOW that?
@@Billythepowerranger Why is that Affirmative action favors one race over another? Isn't that the definition of discrimination?
Yes, it is the definition of discrimination. Now answer my question and stop preaching. Again, how do you know that? How do you know this student is considered bland because of race and not because they are just plain bland?
@@Billythepowerranger because Asians are disproportionately labelled as "no personality" or "lacking personality" relative to other races, yet have the highest merits. If they wanted to cover up this blatant discrimination, using a BS arbitrary 'personality score' would be a perfect cover up to pretend their race wasn't a factor. How do you know race wasn't involved? By the way I wasn't preaching, I was dropping facts
Basically you have to have been kicked out at 18, no father and had a mom that was an alcoholic, had to raise a baby on your own, was homeless and black all at the same time
On paper, it isn't discriminatory. In fact, well... it certainly is.
In no way do I condone racial discrimination at any level, especially in our educational system. However, I cant help but feel this video and the supporting documents are reaching for something that just isn’t there?
Alternate (and my initial) interpretation:
“He’s quiet and, of course, wants to be a doctor” ..shy and timid are not great personality traits for someone who wants to become a doctor, especially at Harvard.
“...he comes across as the hard worker rather than the really outstanding potential scholar” .. his grades may not look outstanding on paper but he has an undeniable work ethic (a positive trait among any admissions committee).
I also noticed the sentence before the second quote stated “In some cases these comments actually originated from the interviews, teacher or counselor recommendations, or self-descriptions given by the applicant” ..so, the teachers who wrote their letter of recommendation and the students themselves both make the same comments as the admissions committee but it’s only racial discrimination when Harvard says it?
I need more evidence, that’s all.
I agree. And heaven forbid a college should be looking for students with integrity and courage. Or students who are kind and helpful. Test scores and grades, of course, are infinitely more important as the most recent supreme court nominee so clearly illustrated to America.
This lawsuit and alleged discrimination is incredibly entitled. No one is entitled to an admission into Harvard except the unexceptional, uninspiring hard worker.
could..
"he comes across as the hard worker rather than the really outstanding potential scholar”
mean that he got good grades because he worked extra hard but he is not outstandingly
smart?
bob45734053 I didn’t think of it that way but yes, I suppose so. I think I fall in that category 😭😭
so do i haha.
I never really got the problem you were trying to portray in this video here?
"Smart and hardworking yet uninteresting and indistinguishable", it seems like a discriminating comment, but when you consider the situation, it actually makes a lot of sense.
I've spoken to many Asians in my life, and it's as good as always clear that they've been raised with the goal to become something like a doctor, as doctors are well-respected people in Asian countries.
These conditions fit the quotation above quite reasonable. Many Asians are raised to work hard and focus on school, but they are also introduced to the same values and goals. Imagine being an employee at Harvard to go through the applications, and with every application from an Asian, you see the same motivations and qualities. This makes for an uninteresting applicant. Harvard doesn't lack intelligent and hard working applicants, for that reason they want intelligent and hardworking applicants, who're also interesting in their own unique way. This doesn't mean these Asian applicants aren't interesting, but when many Asians are interesting in the same way, it quickly becomes uninteresting and indistinguishable.
If you stop at 3:31 and read the page that appears, it says Harvard see African American and Hispanic as positive factors, and often emphasize to look for these applicants.
Heinous discriminatory practices by Harvard 😢
To be honest I don’t feel that the highlighted comments are important to fuss over, it only seems negative attention can be drawn unless substantial discrimination took place