Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy? What the evidence shows and why it matters.
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- On this week's "Mormon Land" podcast, Latter-day Saint scholars discuss church founder Joseph Smith's polygamy and those who increasingly deny he ever participated in the practice.
In 2014, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published an official essay detailing Joseph Smith’s marriages to multiple women. After decades of insisting otherwise, the Community of Christ, formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, has since conceded that the faith founder did participate in polygamy. Highly regarded scholarly works have documented Smith had at least 33 wives, and most historians widely accept that the church leader preached - albeit privately - and practiced plural marriage.
So why is this issue gaining increased attention in various Mormon circles and why are so-called polygamy deniers arguing that Smith had but one wife, Emma, while pinning the practice instead on perhaps the Western world’s most famous polygamist, Brigham Young, and his associates?
What does the evidence really show? Why is this debate springing up now? And what do the competing factions stand to win or lose?
What does the church say about why it took Joseph so long to seal himself to Emma? She was the twenty something wife sealed to him. What does the church say about the women that Joseph married who were already married, and the women said they had sex?
The LDS church NEEDS Joseph to be a polygamist, even though there are dozens of instances on record, while alive, of him and others condemning the practice. I personally don't believe he was, given the historical records while he was alive. I also think a lot of people lied about him.
Is that Dark Vader narrating through a breathing mask apparatus?
Dark Vader is the name of a pulmonaria plant I have in my garden. Darth Vader is the character I believe you are trying to be humorous about.
I find it hard to put much validation to a historian who does not know the difference between woman (singular) and women (plural).
Excellent historical review
Of course JS was a polygamist, those that deny are deep in delusion. The Church would not admit it if it was otherwise. Also it's more likely that JS put his fathers dream in the BOM along with so many other borrowed ideas and texts than that Lucy borrowed it from Lehi.
Or the church lied.
Thank you all for the historical discussion. I also agree that the preponderance of evidence points to Joseph's practicing polygamy. I understand that it is hard to hide a conspiracy as grand as the one about the death of Joseph and the hiding of his polygamy. Steven Novella's "The Skeptics Guide To The Universe" has a convincing chapter, 25, that make a good argument for how difficult a "grand" theory is to hide.
I assume you have heard of Louisa Beaman, Emily Partridge , Eliza Snow, Helen Mar Whitney? These are just four of the polygamous wives of Joseph Smith. You discredit their existence. In order for Emma to be sealed to Joseph ,she had to accept these plural wives. And she did that. However, she still was not comfortable with polygamy. I'm really not sure how you deny this. I have an old book "They Knew The Prophet.' this is a compilation of testimonies of Joseph Smith from people who have known him throughout his life . The compilation is written by Hyrum and Helen Andrus . You should also read Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith. Joseph was practicing polygamy and William Law was completely against the practice.
I would have liked to see this podcast go further into the sources or at least more detail rather than these broad statements. I feel like polygamy deniers were in part straw maned. Here are some examples and solutions.
1) you gloss over how big of a deal it is that we do not have the original William Claton journals. To steal man that I would have liked more acknowledgement on how important this is.
2) I saw a lack of acknowledging suspicious statements by Brigham young. I would have liked to see you guys address the approved lying for the lord, the many authoritative and suspicious statements by Brigham, like how Brigham young says he learned about polygamy before Joseph smith and the editing of the Joseph smith history. I did not see these things addressed. When you say polygamy deniers just throw away everything after Joseph's death you ignore the actual concerns and straw man what they're saying.
3) I find the argument that Brigham young did not have enough control to get people to lie poor. I agree that we may not have enough evidence yet to make an official stance that Brigham Young forced people to lie. Saying over and over that Brigham Young just didn't have that kind of power did not convince me. And then pointing out that certain women made choices like leaving proves Brigham couldn't get women to lie. I would love to hear WHY Brigham didn't have enough power. What was stopping Brigham young from getting others to lie? Here is a list of questions that I believe are worth addressing.
How much power and influence did Brigham Young have over the people and what does the evidence show he was doing with his power on a consistent basis?
Did Brigham ever lie and to what extent?
Did he ever get someone else to lie?
If these women could NOT have been led to lie, then why did some of these women lie when they signed the voice of Innocence under Joseph smith?
How could Joseph get women to lie but not Brigham? Are you claiming that Joseph had more power and influence over women then Brigham?
Lastly, I am just an average guy, I'm not the sharpest. But can you please explain to me how Brigham Young was able to pull 50+ women to have kids for him, submit to the husband, do blood oaths in the temple and migrate 1,300 miles through the brutal snow, but somehow when lying came up that's when he lost control. I'm so utterly lost on that its not even funny. If you had addressed some of these concerns the case that Brigham did not have power to get people to lie would have been stronger.
Aside from the unaddressed concerns I also feel like Michelle Stone was also straw mannered. I feel like certain quotes were picked to stay on the broad topics you guys may have wanted to discuss to gloss over many details. Michelle goes point by point in lots of detail. Many of these details were not discussed. You mention the Whitney documents but fail to mention anything Michelle has said about them in her recently made a video on the Whitney documents. I'd love to see you guys go point by point and steel man her arguments better. Though I agree with a decent part of what you guys said, many things were left to be desired imo. It could have been more thorough but I know you guys are probably busy. I won't bash this too hard because I'm sure a lot of good work went into it. Good job anyway. I'll be surprised if anyone sees this and actually addresses my concerns steel man.
? My understanding is that Emma left the church after Joseph’s death.😊
She started the reorganized church with others didn't she?
Love is love
We, intellectuals, only accept truth when it supports our position.
It is my opinion that Joseph was a polygamist. We were taught in Sunday school, decades ago, that J.S. was not a polygamist.
I don't understand why this is even a question. He clearly had multiple wives .The documentation is there. If you know any history at all, Emma was not aware of it until Eliza Snow . Emma did not accept polygamy but had to in order to be sealed to Joseph. She was not the first one sealed to him. Even then, she had a very hard time with the doctrine of polygamy. After Joseph died , those saints that followed Brigham did practice it , not all but the majority. Joseph was reconsidering the polygamy issue but his death prevented it from stopping. However those who stayed behind, did not adhere to it.
@@rosemariebennett7213 Documents (and people) can and do lie.
@@thereluctantwatchman shall we read D and C 132 Sections 40 - 66...in its entirety. Because we never discuss these in class. Read all of it if you desire. But this is and was the commandments given to Emma , and to the wives and to the brethren..and to us as this has not been changed or removed. It doesn't talk about the second annointing here, but reference is made to it in the book "Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith."
@@rosemariebennett7213 I don't believe Joseph ever wrote 132. If anything, it was a revelation on monogamy that was hijacked by Brigham and turned into a polygamist diatribe of falsehoods and lies that directly contradict Jacob 2 in the BoM.
I wasn't. I joined the Church in 1981 and learned that he had multiple wives. I'm from Ohio. And its been well known. And I never heard that the women married to Joseph Smith were forced to deny it. I don't understand why this is being made into a "thing" now.
History is facts based on evidence. Her argument is totally woke in that she’s saying that history is a matter of perspective.
See I used to think the same thing. I used to believe Michelle was just creating a narrative and it's all based on faulty sources filled with opinions. But then I watched some of her videos and realized that if nothing else........someone lied. I don't know if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. But do know his papers were edited after he died, Joseph opposed polygamy to a point that I would have to believe he was lying if he practiced it, people including Brigham Young claimed to know polygamy before Joseph taught it to them, and many many many other suspicious and dishonest things. So as much as I agree history is fact based. It depends on what facts we are looking at. Michelle cites more sources than this podcast and I believe she was straw maned in this podcast. And from what I've grown to understand cherry picking sources and opinions about them are happening on BOTH sides. The William Clayton Journals aren't even released. Why? This is why I have a hard time jumping to conclusions when a good portion of the documents we can't even look at for ourselves. But I do respect where you are coming from because I used to be there.
Pathetic. Why didn’t you have Michelle Stone or Jeremy Hoop on? What are you afraid of?
I guess they don't have time to waste with idiots who deny the evidence. It's so striking that Joseph Smith practiced poligamy, and it's not a problem.
Because they are wackos and conspiracy theorists
Agreed. The LDS church needs polygamy to be true. Their entire structure rests upon it. The same with the haters of Joseph, they also need him to be a liar and hypocrite.
He is linked to 30 women on the church's own website familysearch. Do we really need to wonder ....
This is the code for his entry - KWJY-BPD - It is locked as read only and so it is not like pranksters are adding stuff maliciously. There are 31 women linked to him many with exact dates of marriage. This should not be a question of if he was a polygamist, but why this fact was hidden for so long and why church members were punished for saying he was, punished for telling a historical truth.
No. I don't understand why this is a "thing" all of a sudden. I joined the Church in 1981. And I learned back then that Joseph had multiple wives.
@@shadowgirl8038 Where did you live in 1981? There are many who said back in the day (1970s and before), that saying Joseph Smith was a polygamist would get you punished. There are posts on ex-mo reddit that members had no idea even 10-15 years ago. I myself did not know until recently, though I knew the church had a polygamist past. So it was no shock. It was just a shock that many said this fact was covered up and people were punished for saying it publicly way back when.
Yep the church has the capability of hiding this information for Years. But somehow it's too far to believe they could be misinformed about history that we don't even have the full documents for. The William Clayton Journals aren't even released. Why? We can't even look at the documents ourselves. But ok let's just trust the family history church site right after they hid this for years. Seems like a good track record for me. You single handedly proved Joseph smith was a polygamist. I think you're onto something, let's believe the history from the people that hid it from us. Clearly there is no motivation to push a certain view. I certainly wouldn't want a non-biased party to come in and evaluate the sources. No let's let the church keep hiring people who have testimonies. Let's not question this. I already booked my flight to North Korea now. It's not like the church hid the history, so let's trust them when they bring it out. Well.......when they bring most of it out. Sorry William Clayton, maybe next year buddy. Yeah you're right.
Yep the church has the capability of hiding this information for Years. But somehow it's too far to believe they could be misinformed about history that we don't even have the full documents for. The William Clayton Journals aren't even released. Why? We can't even look at the documents ourselves. But ok let's just trust the family history church site right after they hid this for years. Seems like a good track record for me. You single handedly proved Joseph smith was a polygamist. I think you're onto something, let's believe the history from the people that hid it from us. Clearly there is no motivation to push a certain view. I certainly wouldn't want a non-biased party to come in and evaluate the sources. No, let's let the church keep hiring people who have testimonies. I agree. Let's not question this. I already booked my flight to North Korea. It's not like the church hid the history, so let's trust them when they bring it out. Well.......when they bring most of it out. Sorry William Clayton, maybe next year buddy.