"Ethics is about helping good people make good decisions when the best one is'nt always clear" Booyah!!!...What a teacher..What a beautiful way to say it....!! Woa!
Isaiah 45:7 clearly states that *evil* comes directly from *God*. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create *evil*: I the LORD do all these things." Since the Bible contradicts itself I'm sure someone can find a contradicting quote. The point stands that Evid3nc3 is completely correct.
Well if there would not be both good and evil, what option would be then to choose... Then there would be no free will. Right? Would you prefere not to have free will? So in a way it is a good thing that God created options... That doesn't really means he is evil. But let's just put you in God's place for a moment after creation. There is no good and bad yet, but you just created free will. Suddenly you see that your creation does something you don't like, is that bad? No! Nor good! So you say that's bad! I don't wanna see that again!. Do good instead, and you define what's good. Let's stop here! are you bad because you don't like something, therefore you "created" bad? Would you do what you don't like? In my opinion this is what Isaiah 45:7 means! So again! Is Evid3nc3 right?! But that's just my opinion, you're free to accept it or not.
RPBCACUEAIIBH From a philosophical standpoint, I don't think free will needs there to be good and evil. That isn't what free will means. Libertarian free will is simply the ability to do otherwise. Let's say you replied to an internet comment, if free will exists it means you could have done otherwise. Meaning given the chain of causation that proceeded it, you could have done something other than what you did. I think theists have a dilemma when trying to explain morality, particularly when defining what good means and explaining evil. If the gods are the source of evil, then they aren't trustworthy. But seeing as how I don't believe the Bible is true, because I find it to be inconsistent and problematic, I'm not sure how much I can engage in a theological debate.
Ok, you are right about the free will, but creating good and evil like I explained, still doesn't makes God evil. If you can say what you like and what you don't, wich makes soemthing good or evel from your perspective, so can God do the same thing. Doesn't even takes a "creator" position to do that. Anyone can do that, but only the creator has the right to make it a golobal rule. I mean noone would create a robot for example, and say that I'm your creator, but you have the right to do whatever you want, I do not expect anything from you not even to believe that I'm real or that I created you, not to mention to serve me... Right? That's just insane! If you create something, you create it with a reason... :)
RPBCACUEAIIBH Generally, I think most theists want to define the gods as being all-good and incapable of doing evil. The reason for this is that if gods can lie, for example, then they are not trustworthy. If gods could cheat, or behave unfairly, then there is no reason to think worshiping such gods would lead to a happier life, since such gods could play tricks on you or deceive you. This may be problematic. I'm not sure I agree with your robot analogy. Let's say the technology is advanced and the robot is has the mind of a human child, complete with all human emotions and the ability to feel mental agony. As that robot's maker, I would not feel right torturing it for my own amusement. I might even feel bad lying to it, or tricking it in some way. That's my moral compass. To me, morality is an internal belief system about what is right or wrong. It's not a command from a jealous and vengeful deity. When I speak of _good_ I am referring to promoting well being in others, while _bad_ is the opposite. Personally, I prefer philosophy and science to theology, both of which serve me well. I certainly would not wish to be subject to a vengeful deity which on occasion did evil things, then declared those actions good by divine fiat.
Wait a minute... For you as an atheist a human's phisical mind represents the same thing wich us theists like to refere as soul wich for us is not a material thing. Right? So if you put a child's mind in a robot, than that's no longer a robot, it's a man saved human beeing.(Assuming you won't experiment on a healty child and say it's moral.) Right? As for a robot I menant an entirely not human one, wich is less inteligent then us, just as we are less inteligent then God. Would you allow that to rampage as it wishes? Would you even create it without a reason? That's what I'm talking about. I have no problem with science, no problem with robotic body parts, but I just won't create a less inteligent robot, without a reason, and without defined rules. As for God doing evil thing and defining as "good", I don't think that's the case, I think he did what he had to do in order to prevent an even bigger bloodshead by us humans, and said that's good. We don't always understand why he would do such a thing, but a robot won't always understand us as well I'm sure...
Great vids! Loving this series! Thank you for presenting the Christian perspective so clearly. As a lifelong atheist I have always been mystified with why people believed in God in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and why they had so much trouble shedding their superstitious beliefs. Your videos, more than any others I've seen, are making this mystery easier to understand. Thank you for your good work!!
And most importantly, it gives us absolutely no direction in deciding what to do with our own moral dilemmas, such as the one I presented in Q1. When faced with questions like Q1, it quickly becomes clear that DCT is an exercise in philosophical irrelevance, completely unequipped to deal with the kinds of problems that moral theories like Utilitarianism, Biocentrism, or Respect for Persons can.
I would submit that religion cheapens morality: Do we want people to be moral because of a selfish desire for heavenly award? Or, Do we want people to be moral because it is the *right thing to do*.
@@ferrm1992 What makes something either right or wrong is easy, does it cause harm to others? If it does, then it is most likely the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is always to try to improve life while causing the least amount of harm. This is not a religious rule. It is part of evolution. We have evolved to have empathy for others, especially those close to us, in our social group, because it was essential for our survival.
I write and write and write a comment over and over trying to explain how inspiring your video's are to me.. but the less words I use the happier I am with the content.. so all I end up with is a hearty and boisterous THANK YOU! Your channel is another YT gem I am very happy to have stumbled across in these wee hours of the night. peace, Steph
"Being Good" by Simon Blackburn :) The book actually did turn out to be a great book. Just like the class, it wasn't about what I assumed it was. It turned out to be incredibly well thought-out. The other book we used was "Engineering Ethics" which is a good book for engineers.
maddy26lk It has little to do with intelligence. It has to do with overcoming an indoctrination process that pushes a lot of emotional buttons and uses a lot of psychological manipulation. It's more about overcoming fear than being smart.
+Paul T Sjordal do you know for sure that the creator of this video didn't also have intelligence on his side during his apostasy? if so can you provide the evidence so I can take a look at it?
Realizing that morality is discoverable independent of God is part of the deconversion process. As an aside, personally, I never bought into divine command theory. I was never that indoctrinated, fortunately. I was always out to discover what is moral on my own, as it should be.
fuzzywzhe They read the Bible with Christian Glasses. In the same way, Muslims read the Koran with Muslim Glasses, and in the same way, they ignore all the disgusting parts of the Koran in the same way Christians conveniently ignore all the ugly parts of the Bible.
fuzzywzhe You used a double negative. And you are correct. This is by design. Most Christian leaders don't want their followers reading the Bible because that is a reliable way to create atheists.
I always want to ask someone, that if you took away all of the verses that tell you that God is good, and then read the Bible from cover to cover, would you come to the conclusion that God is good on your own?
"Yes, to God and it is subject to him. " Which is still subjective. Meaning: rape and murder could have been the actual commandments. And then God would have had his 'purpose' in creating rape which is perverted in consensual sex. If "God's purpose" is just equivalent to "God's whims", then God's purpose is just as meaningless as a universe without purpose.
Heh never noticed that one :) But nice, was too concentrated on his words. Yeah now that I listen to it is really beautiful. This is a good version of the hymn.
Absolutely AWESOME series! I was thinking about making a deconversion series, but this is PERFECT. It is better than any series I could ever make. Well done!
I am a social worker and one day a suicidal caller called in. I got the call and thankfully so, because I had to send the police out to take her to the hospital, thereby saving her life. The caller mentioned she had talked to one of my co-workers, (a devout christian). I confronted my co-worker and she said, "it's not my day to take calls". She blindly transferred the call and it went to another of my co-workers voice mail. Did jesus say it wasn't his day to heal people? So the christian couldn't be bothered and the Atheist saved the callers life. So who has moral/ethics and who doesn't? Try and defend this persons behavior, because you can't. Further, my co-worker stopped talking to me because I reported her to management. Wouldn't a good christian have realized their mistake and gone to their brother to seek forgiveness? Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
As much as I appreciate your experience here, you are committing an anecdotal fallacy here. You can't use a single event to make conclusions about two billion people. You'd need proper statistical analysis, and that analysis would have to factor out other contributing factors before you can safely make a generalization based on this kind of thing.
Paul T Sjordal I made no conclusions about anyone except my co-worker. I said she couldn't be bothered, and she stopped talking to me, which was the truth of what happened.
+Paul T Sjordal It's a different kind of fallacy. Unless there is something Kevin didn't say, it appears neither of them did what they did because of their faith or lack thereof.
Morality is informed consensuality. If a relationship or interaction is nonconsensual then it is either a loving parent child relationship or it is immoral.
Evid3nc3 you have a great understanding of things and like myself have lived on both sides of the curtain. It's my suprise to see I am a better person without god, I don't need to be instructed on morals or threatened if I don't follow them. I just do what is right. If you look to the world outside of the religious bubble, racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious bigotry become harder to ignore. The realization that you only get one chance, this life is all we have...so be a good human now!!
This was always weird to me. If Jesus wasn't good, then why do we revere him as a perfect sinless sacrifice and how exactly did his death atone for sin?
Brilliant!! It's great to finally see a person intelligently explain the step-by-step transformation of theist to atheist; as illustrated from the perspective of an earnest believer. I can personally identify with this video series.
I went through exactly the same process, for me this was the last jenga block before everything came tumbling down. It was after I realised this about the nature of morality that I was able to see the immorality of the acts in the bible during a later study, which was ironically for the purpose of reigniting my faith. Great videos man.
This is amazing. Thanks a lot! The best series of videos I've watched in a long time. A lot of arguments Iv talked about but couldn't articulate so well. Oh yeah and the music is deadly!
Thank you, GoforBroke. I'm glad you are seeing that pattern. One of the points of the series is to show that, in my deconversion, I never did make arguments for atheism. I never wanted to be an atheist. It is a conclusion that I was cornered into in my journey to become a better servant of God.
I see you share my love of a cappella choral music. Even though I am no longer a believer, I still find it beautiful. John Rutter's direction of The Cambridge Singers is stunning, especially the album "Stillness and Sweet Harmony".
I love that version of "Be Still My Soul." Superior work from start to finish here. I vividly recall when I first encountered the Euthyphro Dilemma as an undergraduate. It threw me (I, too, thought I had the morality thing on lock). I asked my philosophy professor if he could spare some time so I could talk it through with him. We met for coffee and by the time we were done he had exempted me from taking the midterm. "You have enough to think about," he said. lol
The reason for my direct and confrontational questioning is because you have elevated yourself into a position of a teacher. You have created a podium for yourself and this is an extremely serious thing for anyone to do. If you are in the position of a teacher, you must ensure the accuracy of your teachings. This goes for everyone across the board. James 3 helps to shed some light on what I am saying. Hopefully you still have your Bible.
Your sense of morality (even early on) sounded pretty good. It's hard to do the right thing if there's no reward at the end. I salute you if you've performed good deeds because it's right, not because you wanted to get into heaven.
hi, i would like to compliment you for the professionalism and the quality of your study. congratulations for that. i do believe in god, and hearing you is a way to check my own faith. i think it is important that people find their own way, even though that way is not believing in god.
You will be a powerful force for goodness and widom with these videos. The goodness of any person is a function of their 'will' to good. And none so will what is good as they who love what is true.
Beautiful, sincere, so well constructed and undeniable in its truth content. Your journey is one every human being should take heed of; a case study in itself of how to deal with the big question of god/religion/atheism/theism.
Another thanks to all the positive and thoughtful commentary. As usual, I don't respond to the vast majority of comments because their value is inherently obvious and self-sufficient.
this is coming from some one who has little to no knowledge of the Bible or religion in general,but it just seems to me one of the biggest short comings in any religion is that they tell you what is good or not,what to do/not do because its good or not,and not letting people decide whether it is good or not either for themselves or good in the eyes of what ever deity they worship.
Actual response by questioner: "What is commanded by God?" "His will." "Why can his will be considered Good? What is Good about his will? He wants us to glorify his name; why is that Good?"
I too ran into the question, "Do I do good things because I am a good person, or do I do good things because I'm afraid of the consequences?" I realized that I was religious because I was fearful. My journey out involved understanding my fears.
We cannot define "good" as "what God is" because then we are still left with the questions "what is it about God that makes Him good?" God is defined as many things. He created a universe, he hears people's thoughts, he interacts with us, and he rescues people and provides them with what they need.
I agree. Back when I was a Christian I had a 'study Bible' which was packed with marginal notes, telling the reader how to interpret the text. It asserted that God didn't really approve of slavery, that he didn't really 'regret' creating mankind etc, etc. I thought "if this book needs so much editorial comment, it can't be the word of the supreme being." It was the Bible that led me to atheism.
In order for the term "good" to make any sense, we have to reference something outside of God. I.e. an action is "good" because it increases someone's happiness. Or it is "good" because it decreases suffering. Or it is "good" because it makes their lives better. That is the only way thinking of something as "good" makes sense. But these values are all completely independent from God. They would be "good" whether God commanded them or not.
@saxoman1 I didn't say visit another nation. I can do that very easily. I am talking about changing nationality. If I wanted to be an Australian, or join Sweden, the ability to get citizenship is not just "fly there and sign a piece of paper". That is what I am talking about. If I don't like my government, it is not easy to merely move countries. Not to mention any animals you have require 6 months min isolation.
Mark Twain wrote that no one commits a truly self-less action. We always get at least one reward for every good deed we do, and that is self-satisfaction. We don't help the old lady across the street just because it's the right thing to do; we do it because it would bother our consciences more than we would be comfortable with if we didn't help her. An interesting line of reasoning, and a terribly intelligent man.
From a purely material perspective of the existence of the natural universe, you are correct. Ultimately, it is neither good or evil whether humans exist at all. However, from within our evolutionary perspective, we have a will to survive and live a fulfilling life. And with these values in mind, which are shared by the majority of human beings, the metrics of philosophies like Utilitarianism can guide us in making decisions that maximize them (survival and happiness).
I still consider myself a Christian and I do still listen to a weekly sermons from my church via iTunes, but I also find myself struggling with these same questions. Why should we be good just because God says so, we should be good because it is the right thing to do.
@jonathanfater "Suffering can bring about a stronger character" But it's completely unnecessary to do so. Therefore we can conclude it is objectively true that suffering is an undesired state, and an unnecessary state. WLC made it very clear in a question he posed to Kagan what he was saying, "I don't see how you can decide what is moral without an objective transcendent morality." To which Kelley responded, "I don't see how you can think that that question makes any sense."
@saxoman1 "if you actually invented something..." there reason is due to the agreements you sign when you start work. It says basically anything designed by software, that in anyway uses the same language or technology as the company that you work for, then the code is property of said company. I just got into a start-up where they removed that section, but that is a start-up, not a million dollar business.
If we say "Ah, it is the rescuing people and providing them with what they need. That is what makes Him good", then we have externalized the definition. Now the definition of "good" is no longer limited to God. God is just one example of someone who is "good".
I used to be a Christian, too. And I can relate to these videos so much! I'm happy for you, and for anybody else who breaks off of the system of supernatural fascism.
@bluefootedpig "job and government go hand in hand." The whole point of me saying that was to clarify what your argument is. Is it jobs == "slavery"? Government == "slavery"? Or is it the combination of the "system" (being jobs and government etc.) == "slavery"? "If i bought land in the middle of arizona desert, and somehow grew a farm out there," And how would you irrigate that farm? Who would give the supplies for it? How would those supplies get there? Would you not use the tax funded roads?
hey Evid3nc3: 4:14 could you give us a few examples of the good choices (your teacher gave you)and circunstances in wich good decissions needed to be made?
I'm not going to read the other youtube comments because I know they'll be full of shit. I just want to say thank you because I'm actually crying right now. Your explanation of what it's like to grow up christian and how it falls away perfectly mirrors my personal experience in a way I wasn't able to express properly. When I come out to my parents as non-christian, now I have something to give them to help them understand why and know that it's not their fault. Thank you so much.
In order to end the cycle, we have to insert a definition of "good" that is independent of God. Here is how that conversation would go: "God is good." "What is good?" "Whatever actions increase welfare and decrease suffering for all." "Does God do these things?" "Yes." "Ah. Then, I agree: by this standard (external from God), we can call him good." If "good" is just whatever an individual says, even if that individual is God, the word ceases to have any objective meaning.
@bluefootedpig Just because you don't "own" your child doesn't mean you just do "whatever" with them. They are your family and your very blood. They are under your tutelage until they are adults (this gets tricky seeing as how even in modern times "adult" is defined at different ages, and it most certainly was different back then. Even this definition is relative). A child will naturally gravitate to its birth mother (in practically ALL cases). This is an important bond to forge for a child!
Thanks for your videos, Evid3nce! They're great! I just have a comment on the layout: in some browsers and embedded players I seem to have a hard time to click the links at the bottom, because the player buttons panel keeps obscuring them. Please, keep it up!
@saxoman1 Well, to be honest, I designed it on a Microsoft product. Thought I would point that out. But what I have designed so far is a XAML parser (microsofts version is sealed, therefore cannot be extended). This was used for 5 different projects later by the company. Based on that parser, I designed and engineered an ETL process that moves data from any source to any destination (flat file, db, anything), without using more than 100k of ram. Result: 3 month process took 15 min.
@saxoman1 I only used one side as currently, it is only one side; at least most of the time. yes, our definitions might be different. You see slavery as ownership of a person, while I see slavery as ownership of ones labor or actions. If I owe 1 million to someone, and my wages are garnished, then a portion of my work, sweat, time must be dedicated to that person. Sure I can walk away from a job, but my next job I will still owe my time. And really, time is all we have in life.
@bluefootedpig Additionally, there ARE places in the world still disputed that you could life in (Ex: Bir Tawi, a border Saudi-Egypt, is a mountainous area unclaimed!). You could even live on abandoned oil rigs since international waters are claimed by no one. You could also live with eskimos in the northern regions of earth, or tribes in the jungles. But if you are looking for comforts afforded by living in groups, then there will always be SOME form of government (even if simply tribal)!
I'm slowly coming to the terms . That I can not continue following the Christian faith and life. Too many things for me as a whole can not give up. I love God !!! He has made himself real to me.
@6:02 - that mentality that because god commanded genocide, rape, etc., it must be "good", has always driven me up a wall. I agree with those who've pointed out that if a deity cannot live up to its own laws, especially those laid down for "imperfect" humans, then said deity is not worthy of worship.
@@theuniverse.3080 same here man, I'm scared too. I don't have all the answers, but I know we'll get through it if we keep looking for the whole unbiased truth! One day we'll have the evidence we need to find the truth! Don't worry 🤗
I have been through some of the dilemmas, that you are mentioning in your videos. I have studied the scriptures, I have reflected upon where we are coming from, where we are heading to, and what our purpose here, on Earth should be. When I started reading the scriptures, especially the new testament, I found that some of the teachings of Christ, are very similar to those, I had encountered on my journey, on my pilgrimage. This is why for a while I thought that Christianity is the religion that can show us the way to the truth. But then I saw that Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different things, and also that the scriptures are formed in such way that they can be used for controlling the masses. Obviously it wasn't so easy to get rid of the spell of the scriptures, because of the fear that they inject into the human mind. But now I am almost 100 percent convinced, that for those who understand the teachings of Christ, it is impossible to be part of any religious movement. Now I would say that the scriptures do contain very useful thoughts which can help us understand our existence, but they can be very dangerous for those who take it literally with a religious mind. Socrates said: we keep count of each and every opinion, even if we don't agree with them. Paul said, test all things; hold fast that which is good. As a conclusion, I would say, that even the words of the bible can be very useful, if read open minded with the intention of understanding our existence. I am not wise enough to say, that the bible is useless in this regard.
And, yes, as a believer, it twisted my mind into knots wondering how morality could be separate from God, since God was supposed to have created everything. But the solution seemed better than the circular logic above.
I was raised a christian. I did "explore" various religions, I took a view at their customs and beliefs. I had Religion as a subject in school for serveral years. And have every since my childhood been fascinated with history, later in particular anthropology.
The universal moral standards I referred to would only be broken by someone who a) knew they were doing wrong or b) had diagnosable psychological issues. In the 1st case they should be rehabilitated, and in the 2nd, kept in a mental institute. In most cases, the morality of an action can be judged based on its effect on society. There are some subjective factors, like the relative importance of individual freedom vs. the feelings of other people, but in many cases, diverse people feel the same.
@droptozro "you seem so far quite a weak "baby" Christian for a 15 year veteran claim." "You've seemed more interested in seeing the other side, instead of learning how to defend your faith" Your prejudice is unfortunate. These first two videos in the Deconversion section are mostly memoirs of my young Christianity. If you had wanted to see the veteren arguments I made for my faith and my life as a more experienced Christian, all you would have had to do was watch one more video.
Another excellent video. I find it interesting that your thoughts and actions embody what Christians should be - should make us all think. Your last comments about heaven and hell are the most important of this video. If the only reason a person does a good deed is for a reward, that person is not moral - merely selfish. The mark of morality is doing something, not for personal gain/reward, but because it is the right thing to do.
good content like this is at the heart of why fervent Christians dislike a college education, or any kind of science education... material like this ultimately subverts too many of their core tenets to be tolerated or acceptable
@saxoman1 It takes a lot more than that. For England, here is the requirements: Lived in England for 5 years, along with having a job during that time in order to keep the visa. So someone like myself, who may just want to move there, without a job I could not get a visa to stay there. I would be deported back to the US. So in a sense, I must work for the UK economy for 5 years before they will even review my application. That is not "easy"
@saxoman1 agreeing, and trying to give some sort of rationality for why might people behave the way they do. Which is getting increasingly harder as i get older.
"Ethics is about helping good people make good decisions when the best one is'nt always clear" Booyah!!!...What a teacher..What a beautiful way to say it....!! Woa!
Isaiah 45:7 clearly states that *evil* comes directly from *God*. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create *evil*: I the LORD do all these things." Since the Bible contradicts itself I'm sure someone can find a contradicting quote. The point stands that Evid3nc3 is completely correct.
Well if there would not be both good and evil, what option would be then to choose... Then there would be no free will. Right? Would you prefere not to have free will? So in a way it is a good thing that God created options... That doesn't really means he is evil. But let's just put you in God's place for a moment after creation. There is no good and bad yet, but you just created free will. Suddenly you see that your creation does something you don't like, is that bad? No! Nor good! So you say that's bad! I don't wanna see that again!. Do good instead, and you define what's good. Let's stop here! are you bad because you don't like something, therefore you "created" bad? Would you do what you don't like? In my opinion this is what Isaiah 45:7 means! So again! Is Evid3nc3 right?! But that's just my opinion, you're free to accept it or not.
RPBCACUEAIIBH From a philosophical standpoint, I don't think free will needs there to be good and evil. That isn't what free will means. Libertarian free will is simply the ability to do otherwise. Let's say you replied to an internet comment, if free will exists it means you could have done otherwise. Meaning given the chain of causation that proceeded it, you could have done something other than what you did.
I think theists have a dilemma when trying to explain morality, particularly when defining what good means and explaining evil. If the gods are the source of evil, then they aren't trustworthy. But seeing as how I don't believe the Bible is true, because I find it to be inconsistent and problematic, I'm not sure how much I can engage in a theological debate.
Ok, you are right about the free will, but creating good and evil like I explained, still doesn't makes God evil. If you can say what you like and what you don't, wich makes soemthing good or evel from your perspective, so can God do the same thing. Doesn't even takes a "creator" position to do that. Anyone can do that, but only the creator has the right to make it a golobal rule. I mean noone would create a robot for example, and say that I'm your creator, but you have the right to do whatever you want, I do not expect anything from you not even to believe that I'm real or that I created you, not to mention to serve me... Right? That's just insane! If you create something, you create it with a reason... :)
RPBCACUEAIIBH Generally, I think most theists want to define the gods as being all-good and incapable of doing evil. The reason for this is that if gods can lie, for example, then they are not trustworthy. If gods could cheat, or behave unfairly, then there is no reason to think worshiping such gods would lead to a happier life, since such gods could play tricks on you or deceive you. This may be problematic.
I'm not sure I agree with your robot analogy. Let's say the technology is advanced and the robot is has the mind of a human child, complete with all human emotions and the ability to feel mental agony. As that robot's maker, I would not feel right torturing it for my own amusement. I might even feel bad lying to it, or tricking it in some way. That's my moral compass.
To me, morality is an internal belief system about what is right or wrong. It's not a command from a jealous and vengeful deity. When I speak of _good_ I am referring to promoting well being in others, while _bad_ is the opposite. Personally, I prefer philosophy and science to theology, both of which serve me well. I certainly would not wish to be subject to a vengeful deity which on occasion did evil things, then declared those actions good by divine fiat.
Wait a minute... For you as an atheist a human's phisical mind represents the same thing wich us theists like to refere as soul wich for us is not a material thing. Right?
So if you put a child's mind in a robot, than that's no longer a robot, it's a man saved human beeing.(Assuming you won't experiment on a healty child and say it's moral.) Right? As for a robot I menant an entirely not human one, wich is less inteligent then us, just as we are less inteligent then God. Would you allow that to rampage as it wishes? Would you even create it without a reason? That's what I'm talking about. I have no problem with science, no problem with robotic body parts, but I just won't create a less inteligent robot, without a reason, and without defined rules.
As for God doing evil thing and defining as "good", I don't think that's the case, I think he did what he had to do in order to prevent an even bigger bloodshead by us humans, and said that's good. We don't always understand why he would do such a thing, but a robot won't always understand us as well I'm sure...
Great vids! Loving this series! Thank you for presenting the Christian perspective so clearly. As a lifelong atheist I have always been mystified with why people believed in God in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and why they had so much trouble shedding their superstitious beliefs. Your videos, more than any others I've seen, are making this mystery easier to understand. Thank you for your good work!!
And most importantly, it gives us absolutely no direction in deciding what to do with our own moral dilemmas, such as the one I presented in Q1.
When faced with questions like Q1, it quickly becomes clear that DCT is an exercise in philosophical irrelevance, completely unequipped to deal with the kinds of problems that moral theories like Utilitarianism, Biocentrism, or Respect for Persons can.
I would submit that religion cheapens morality:
Do we want people to be moral because of a selfish desire for heavenly award?
Or, Do we want people to be moral because it is the *right thing to do*.
Like religious people are all that moral
While I agree with your take 100%, always be ready to answer: what is the right thing to do and/or what makes it the right thing to do?
@@ferrm1992 What makes something either right or wrong is easy, does it cause harm to others? If it does, then it is most likely the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is always to try to improve life while causing the least amount of harm.
This is not a religious rule. It is part of evolution. We have evolved to have empathy for others, especially those close to us, in our social group, because it was essential for our survival.
I write and write and write a comment over and over trying to explain how inspiring your video's are to me.. but the less words I use the happier I am with the content.. so all I end up with is a hearty and boisterous
THANK YOU!
Your channel is another YT gem I am very happy to have stumbled across in these wee hours of the night.
peace,
Steph
"Being Good" by Simon Blackburn :)
The book actually did turn out to be a great book. Just like the class, it wasn't about what I assumed it was. It turned out to be incredibly well thought-out.
The other book we used was "Engineering Ethics" which is a good book for engineers.
Smart guy for realising and deconverting from Christianity to Atheism
*thumbs up*
maddy26lk
It has little to do with intelligence. It has to do with overcoming an indoctrination process that pushes a lot of emotional buttons and uses a lot of psychological manipulation.
It's more about overcoming fear than being smart.
+Paul T Sjordal do you know for sure that the creator of this video didn't also have intelligence on his side during his apostasy? if so can you provide the evidence so I can take a look at it?
Realizing that morality is discoverable independent of God is part of the deconversion process. As an aside, personally, I never bought into divine command theory. I was never that indoctrinated, fortunately. I was always out to discover what is moral on my own, as it should be.
***** "just as i had in sunday school"
lol :)
Religion tries to take credit for people's natural desire to be good.
Could you please tell me what is your criteria of "good"?
Атанас Тончев If that was directed at me, it would help if I knew why you want the definition.
Watching all of your deconversion videos, it reminds me almost completely of my life growing up. Thank you for these. Keep up the good work.
I am honestly surprised that anybody could read the Bible and conclude that the God depicted in it could be considered "good".
fuzzywzhe
They read the Bible with Christian Glasses.
In the same way, Muslims read the Koran with Muslim Glasses, and in the same way, they ignore all the disgusting parts of the Koran in the same way Christians conveniently ignore all the ugly parts of the Bible.
Paul T Sjordal To be entirely honest I don't think most Christians don't read the Bible at all.
fuzzywzhe
You used a double negative.
And you are correct. This is by design. Most Christian leaders don't want their followers reading the Bible because that is a reliable way to create atheists.
+fuzzywzhe They do, but just the parts that someone else picks out for them. You know, the happy fuzzy ones.
I always want to ask someone, that if you took away all of the verses that tell you that God is good, and then read the Bible from cover to cover, would you come to the conclusion that God is good on your own?
I really love the quality of these videos. It makes them more powerful, knowing a lot of work was put into them. Again, thanks for the hard work.
Thank you so much for this. I'm touched that the series has been so meaningful for you.
fantastic, a great addition as usual. please make the next one fast, i cant wait; especially for logic and creations points!
"Yes, to God and it is subject to him. "
Which is still subjective.
Meaning: rape and murder could have been the actual commandments. And then God would have had his 'purpose' in creating rape which is perverted in consensual sex.
If "God's purpose" is just equivalent to "God's whims", then God's purpose is just as meaningless as a universe without purpose.
Man, it's eery how much I can relate to your journey. Your videos are so helpful for me right now man! Thanks.
I like the use of the Finlandia hymn in the background. Nice choice.
Heh never noticed that one :) But nice, was too concentrated on his words. Yeah now that I listen to it is really beautiful. This is a good version of the hymn.
Absolutely AWESOME series! I was thinking about making a deconversion series, but this is PERFECT. It is better than any series I could ever make. Well done!
I am a social worker and one day a suicidal caller called in. I got the call and thankfully so, because I had to send the police out to take her to the hospital, thereby saving her life. The caller mentioned she had talked to one of my co-workers, (a devout christian). I confronted my co-worker and she said, "it's not my day to take calls". She blindly transferred the call and it went to another of my co-workers voice mail. Did jesus say it wasn't his day to heal people? So the christian couldn't be bothered and the Atheist saved the callers life. So who has moral/ethics and who doesn't? Try and defend this persons behavior, because you can't. Further, my co-worker stopped talking to me because I reported her to management. Wouldn't a good christian have realized their mistake and gone to their brother to seek forgiveness? Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
As much as I appreciate your experience here, you are committing an anecdotal fallacy here. You can't use a single event to make conclusions about two billion people. You'd need proper statistical analysis, and that analysis would have to factor out other contributing factors before you can safely make a generalization based on this kind of thing.
Paul T Sjordal I made no conclusions about anyone except my co-worker. I said she couldn't be bothered, and she stopped talking to me, which was the truth of what happened.
Kevin Kurtz OK, if you're not extending your conclusions beyond your coworker, it's not an anecdotal fallacy (a.k.a cherry-picking).
+Paul T Sjordal It's a different kind of fallacy. Unless there is something Kevin didn't say, it appears neither of them did what they did because of their faith or lack thereof.
So many of these videos hit home with how i deconverted. Thankyou for putting them out there.
Morality is informed consensuality.
If a relationship or interaction is nonconsensual then it is either a loving parent child relationship or it is immoral.
Evid3nc3 you have a great understanding of things and like myself have lived on both sides of the curtain. It's my suprise to see I am a better person without god, I don't need to be instructed on morals or threatened if I don't follow them. I just do what is right. If you look to the world outside of the religious bubble, racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious bigotry become harder to ignore. The realization that you only get one chance, this life is all we have...so be a good human now!!
"I was already good."
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.- Luke 18:19
This was always weird to me. If Jesus wasn't good, then why do we revere him as a perfect sinless sacrifice and how exactly did his death atone for sin?
One of the best videos of all time on atheism, morality, and deconversion. Thank you.
morality is subjective.
YES! Another great submission from Evid3nc3. I must say, I'm really impressed with your work, they ring with echos of my own deconversion.
Brilliant!!
It's great to finally see a person intelligently explain the step-by-step transformation of theist to atheist; as illustrated from the perspective of an earnest believer.
I can personally identify with this video series.
I went through exactly the same process, for me this was the last jenga block before everything came tumbling down. It was after I realised this about the nature of morality that I was able to see the immorality of the acts in the bible during a later study, which was ironically for the purpose of reigniting my faith. Great videos man.
Another excellent piece, looking forward to the rest of the series
This is amazing. Thanks a lot! The best series of videos I've watched in a long time. A lot of arguments Iv talked about but couldn't articulate so well. Oh yeah and the music is deadly!
keep delivering excellent quality work and great concepts. you are providing an amazing service - thanks!
I have been waiting for this so much...!
Thank you, GoforBroke. I'm glad you are seeing that pattern. One of the points of the series is to show that, in my deconversion, I never did make arguments for atheism. I never wanted to be an atheist. It is a conclusion that I was cornered into in my journey to become a better servant of God.
You blow me away with every presentation. Truly brilliant. Thank you, and I look forward to more!
I see you share my love of a cappella choral music. Even though I am no longer a believer, I still find it beautiful. John Rutter's direction of The Cambridge Singers is stunning, especially the album "Stillness and Sweet Harmony".
I like that approach of having parts of that diagram fade into nothing while the epic music remains.
I just checked "Being Good" out of my university library. Thank you so much for calling my attention to this very interesting book.
Very high quality on your videos. You're also a great speaker, keep at it!
Great use of still imagery to provide focus on the words you're speaking. Well made.
I love that version of "Be Still My Soul."
Superior work from start to finish here.
I vividly recall when I first encountered the Euthyphro Dilemma as an undergraduate. It threw me (I, too, thought I had the morality thing on lock). I asked my philosophy professor if he could spare some time so I could talk it through with him. We met for coffee and by the time we were done he had exempted me from taking the midterm. "You have enough to think about," he said. lol
(Might be a duplicate)
Evid3nc3, I subscribed a couple months ago and I'm glad I did. Very good work, well spoken and well done. My appreciation.
The reason for my direct and confrontational questioning is because you have elevated yourself into a position of a teacher. You have created a podium for yourself and this is an extremely serious thing for anyone to do. If you are in the position of a teacher, you must ensure the accuracy of your teachings. This goes for everyone across the board. James 3 helps to shed some light on what I am saying. Hopefully you still have your Bible.
Your sense of morality (even early on) sounded pretty good. It's hard to do the right thing if there's no reward at the end.
I salute you if you've performed good deeds because it's right, not because you wanted to get into heaven.
hi, i would like to compliment you for the professionalism and the quality of your study. congratulations for that.
i do believe in god, and hearing you is a way to check my own faith. i think it is important that people find their own way, even though that way is not believing in god.
Do you have a transcript of your presentation? I'm learning a lot from it and would love to re-read what you've said.
Thanks!
You will be a powerful force for goodness and widom with these videos. The goodness of any person is a function of their 'will' to good. And none so will what is good as they who love what is true.
You have the best possible approach.
Beautiful, sincere, so well constructed and undeniable in its truth content. Your journey is one every human being should take heed of; a case study in itself of how to deal with the big question of god/religion/atheism/theism.
Another thanks to all the positive and thoughtful commentary. As usual, I don't respond to the vast majority of comments because their value is inherently obvious and self-sufficient.
this is coming from some one who has little to no knowledge of the Bible or religion in general,but it just seems to me one of the biggest short comings in any religion is that they tell you what is good or not,what to do/not do because its good or not,and not letting people decide whether it is good or not either for themselves or good in the eyes of what ever deity they worship.
Actual response by questioner:
"What is commanded by God?"
"His will."
"Why can his will be considered Good? What is Good about his will? He wants us to glorify his name; why is that Good?"
Very well delivered "episode." Love the background music.
I too ran into the question, "Do I do good things because I am a good person, or do I do good things because I'm afraid of the consequences?" I realized that I was religious because I was fearful. My journey out involved understanding my fears.
We cannot define "good" as "what God is" because then we are still left with the questions "what is it about God that makes Him good?" God is defined as many things. He created a universe, he hears people's thoughts, he interacts with us, and he rescues people and provides them with what they need.
I agree. Back when I was a Christian I had a 'study Bible' which was packed with marginal notes, telling the reader how to interpret the text. It asserted that God didn't really approve of slavery, that he didn't really 'regret' creating mankind etc, etc. I thought "if this book needs so much editorial comment, it can't be the word of the supreme being."
It was the Bible that led me to atheism.
In order for the term "good" to make any sense, we have to reference something outside of God. I.e. an action is "good" because it increases someone's happiness. Or it is "good" because it decreases suffering. Or it is "good" because it makes their lives better. That is the only way thinking of something as "good" makes sense.
But these values are all completely independent from God. They would be "good" whether God commanded them or not.
Excellent Video Series. I loved the question you asked at 8:33
@saxoman1 I didn't say visit another nation. I can do that very easily. I am talking about changing nationality. If I wanted to be an Australian, or join Sweden, the ability to get citizenship is not just "fly there and sign a piece of paper". That is what I am talking about. If I don't like my government, it is not easy to merely move countries. Not to mention any animals you have require 6 months min isolation.
another great installment, I can't wait for 2.3
Mark Twain wrote that no one commits a truly self-less action. We always get at least one reward for every good deed we do, and that is self-satisfaction. We don't help the old lady across the street just because it's the right thing to do; we do it because it would bother our consciences more than we would be comfortable with if we didn't help her. An interesting line of reasoning, and a terribly intelligent man.
From a purely material perspective of the existence of the natural universe, you are correct. Ultimately, it is neither good or evil whether humans exist at all.
However, from within our evolutionary perspective, we have a will to survive and live a fulfilling life.
And with these values in mind, which are shared by the majority of human beings, the metrics of philosophies like Utilitarianism can guide us in making decisions that maximize them (survival and happiness).
This is EXACTLY HOW I FEEL/FELT. I love you.
Your deconversion is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
I still consider myself a Christian and I do still listen to a weekly sermons from my church via iTunes, but I also find myself struggling with these same questions. Why should we be good just because God says so, we should be good because it is the right thing to do.
Another fantastic video, please keep them coming
@jonathanfater "Suffering can bring about a stronger character" But it's completely unnecessary to do so. Therefore we can conclude it is objectively true that suffering is an undesired state, and an unnecessary state.
WLC made it very clear in a question he posed to Kagan what he was saying, "I don't see how you can decide what is moral without an objective transcendent morality." To which Kelley responded, "I don't see how you can think that that question makes any sense."
@saxoman1 "if you actually invented something..." there reason is due to the agreements you sign when you start work. It says basically anything designed by software, that in anyway uses the same language or technology as the company that you work for, then the code is property of said company. I just got into a start-up where they removed that section, but that is a start-up, not a million dollar business.
Please where can I download (or if you can give the names) the soundtracks within your recording?
If we say "Ah, it is the rescuing people and providing them with what they need. That is what makes Him good", then we have externalized the definition. Now the definition of "good" is no longer limited to God. God is just one example of someone who is "good".
I used to be a Christian, too. And I can relate to these videos so much!
I'm happy for you, and for anybody else who breaks off of the system of supernatural fascism.
@bluefootedpig "job and government go hand in hand."
The whole point of me saying that was to clarify what your argument is. Is it jobs == "slavery"? Government == "slavery"? Or is it the combination of the "system" (being jobs and government etc.) == "slavery"?
"If i bought land in the middle of arizona desert, and somehow grew a farm out there,"
And how would you irrigate that farm? Who would give the supplies for it? How would those supplies get there? Would you not use the tax funded roads?
hey Evid3nc3: 4:14 could you give us a few examples of the good choices (your teacher gave you)and circunstances in wich good decissions needed to be made?
can't wait 4 the rest great series
This will be a great series
I'm not going to read the other youtube comments because I know they'll be full of shit.
I just want to say thank you because I'm actually crying right now. Your explanation of what it's like to grow up christian and how it falls away perfectly mirrors my personal experience in a way I wasn't able to express properly. When I come out to my parents as non-christian, now I have something to give them to help them understand why and know that it's not their fault. Thank you so much.
In order to end the cycle, we have to insert a definition of "good" that is independent of God. Here is how that conversation would go:
"God is good."
"What is good?"
"Whatever actions increase welfare and decrease suffering for all."
"Does God do these things?"
"Yes."
"Ah. Then, I agree: by this standard (external from God), we can call him good."
If "good" is just whatever an individual says, even if that individual is God, the word ceases to have any objective meaning.
@bluefootedpig Just because you don't "own" your child doesn't mean you just do "whatever" with them. They are your family and your very blood. They are under your tutelage until they are adults (this gets tricky seeing as how even in modern times "adult" is defined at different ages, and it most certainly was different back then. Even this definition is relative). A child will naturally gravitate to its birth mother (in practically ALL cases). This is an important bond to forge for a child!
Thanks for your videos, Evid3nce! They're great!
I just have a comment on the layout: in some browsers and embedded players I seem to have a hard time to click the links at the bottom, because the player buttons panel keeps obscuring them.
Please, keep it up!
@saxoman1 Well, to be honest, I designed it on a Microsoft product. Thought I would point that out. But what I have designed so far is a XAML parser (microsofts version is sealed, therefore cannot be extended). This was used for 5 different projects later by the company. Based on that parser, I designed and engineered an ETL process that moves data from any source to any destination (flat file, db, anything), without using more than 100k of ram. Result: 3 month process took 15 min.
@saxoman1 I only used one side as currently, it is only one side; at least most of the time.
yes, our definitions might be different. You see slavery as ownership of a person, while I see slavery as ownership of ones labor or actions. If I owe 1 million to someone, and my wages are garnished, then a portion of my work, sweat, time must be dedicated to that person. Sure I can walk away from a job, but my next job I will still owe my time. And really, time is all we have in life.
Very, very, good video. Keep it up and thank you for making these!
Which always boils down to do not question your creator, obey and believe and you might be saved, if I predestined you for it.
@bluefootedpig Additionally, there ARE places in the world still disputed that you could life in (Ex: Bir Tawi, a border Saudi-Egypt, is a mountainous area unclaimed!). You could even live on abandoned oil rigs since international waters are claimed by no one. You could also live with eskimos in the northern regions of earth, or tribes in the jungles. But if you are looking for comforts afforded by living in groups, then there will always be SOME form of government (even if simply tribal)!
I'm slowly coming to the terms . That I can not continue following the Christian faith and life. Too many things for me as a whole can not give up. I love God !!! He has made himself real to me.
@6:02 - that mentality that because god commanded genocide, rape, etc., it must be "good", has always driven me up a wall. I agree with those who've pointed out that if a deity cannot live up to its own laws, especially those laid down for "imperfect" humans, then said deity is not worthy of worship.
As a Christian who's rapidly losing my faith in God and the bible, this has been helpful thank you!
i think i'm losing faith too. i'm scared but..i'm still a bit stubborn but yeah..i'm scared. but we'll get through i guess.
@@theuniverse.3080 same here man, I'm scared too. I don't have all the answers, but I know we'll get through it if we keep looking for the whole unbiased truth! One day we'll have the evidence we need to find the truth! Don't worry 🤗
@@nickh.44 thoughts now?
@@SparrowHills08 to be honest I got depressed and stopped studying but now I'm gonna start studying a lot more from both sides
@@nickh.44 Hmmmm, well as a Theist Ill throw in my two pence and recommend John Calvin lol
Interesting video, I like how at the end the matrix representing your beeleef has the appropriate section missing.
I have been through some of the dilemmas, that you are mentioning in your videos.
I have studied the scriptures, I have reflected upon where we are coming from, where we are heading to, and what our purpose here, on Earth should be.
When I started reading the scriptures, especially the new testament, I found that some of the teachings of Christ, are very similar to those, I had encountered on my journey, on my pilgrimage. This is why for a while I thought that Christianity is the religion that can show us the way to the truth. But then I saw that Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different things, and also that the scriptures are formed in such way that they can be used for controlling the masses. Obviously it wasn't so easy to get rid of the spell of the scriptures, because of the fear that they inject into the human mind.
But now I am almost 100 percent convinced, that for those who understand the teachings of Christ, it is impossible to be part of any religious movement.
Now I would say that the scriptures do contain very useful thoughts which can help us understand our existence, but they can be very dangerous for those who take it literally with a religious mind. Socrates said: we keep count of each and every opinion, even if we don't agree with them. Paul said, test all things; hold fast that which is good.
As a conclusion, I would say, that even the words of the bible can be very useful, if read open minded with the intention of understanding our existence.
I am not wise enough to say, that the bible is useless in this regard.
And, yes, as a believer, it twisted my mind into knots wondering how morality could be separate from God, since God was supposed to have created everything. But the solution seemed better than the circular logic above.
I was raised a christian.
I did "explore" various religions, I took a view at their customs and beliefs. I had Religion as a subject in school for serveral years. And have every since my childhood been fascinated with history, later in particular anthropology.
The universal moral standards I referred to would only be broken by someone who a) knew they were doing wrong or b) had diagnosable psychological issues. In the 1st case they should be rehabilitated, and in the 2nd, kept in a mental institute.
In most cases, the morality of an action can be judged based on its effect on society. There are some subjective factors, like the relative importance of individual freedom vs. the feelings of other people, but in many cases, diverse people feel the same.
@droptozro
"you seem so far quite a weak "baby" Christian for a 15 year veteran claim."
"You've seemed more interested in seeing the other side, instead of learning how to defend your faith"
Your prejudice is unfortunate. These first two videos in the Deconversion section are mostly memoirs of my young Christianity.
If you had wanted to see the veteren arguments I made for my faith and my life as a more experienced Christian, all you would have had to do was watch one more video.
@Touskov How do we know and define what is "right"?
Another excellent video. I find it interesting that your thoughts and actions embody what Christians should be - should make us all think. Your last comments about heaven and hell are the most important of this video. If the only reason a person does a good deed is for a reward, that person is not moral - merely selfish. The mark of morality is doing something, not for personal gain/reward, but because it is the right thing to do.
good content like this is at the heart of why fervent Christians dislike a college education, or any kind of science education... material like this ultimately subverts too many of their core tenets to be tolerated or acceptable
I'd not heard of the Euthyphro dilemma before this. It's an amazing philosophical question.
Great series and well done.
@jonathanfater Given that...would you still do these things you think are absolute transcendent moral oughts?
@saxoman1 It takes a lot more than that. For England, here is the requirements:
Lived in England for 5 years, along with having a job during that time in order to keep the visa. So someone like myself, who may just want to move there, without a job I could not get a visa to stay there. I would be deported back to the US. So in a sense, I must work for the UK economy for 5 years before they will even review my application. That is not "easy"
@saxoman1 agreeing, and trying to give some sort of rationality for why might people behave the way they do. Which is getting increasingly harder as i get older.