Dennett on how religion offers an excuse to stop thinking
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 авг 2008
- Dan Dennett talks about how religions in many cases offers an "goldenplated excuse to stop thinking" and that people have got to stop playing the "faith card" in debates. I think he puts it brilliantly.
The full video is available at google video:
video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
Dan Dennett is one of the smartest well reasoned intellectually honest thinkers on the planet today.
Well said by Dennett. Religion is shallow and does not require thinking, but only faith to believe pre-packaged ideology. Religion preaches submission and obedience, and the worst is, religion convinces believers they should not trust their own minds. In this regard people that do not think are easier to manipulate and be useful tools to accomplish political and social objectives.
the fact that there are people of your intelectuall has me keep some faith in humanity.keep strong
Spoken by someone who has neither researched the bible or even read it😂😂😂
I doubt it. A scientific education has only strengthened my belief in that faith is completely useless. If I can't see it or measure it I see no point in assuming that it exists. The idea that some bronze age people had a better understanding of the cosmos than we do today strikes me as, frankly, ridiculous.
Just my two cents.
John
And 4 years later, you are still spot on. Hope life has treated you well through all of them.
John
And 7 years later, you are still spot on. Hope life has treated you well through all of them.
Faith is the beliefs of things unseen. Its not about something physical that is in the present but its true that if you see it and believe that you can have achieve it, that is faith. Your faith isn't based around god but you and what you invision.
What part of your life doesn’t involve faith?
'Lucille is a friend of mine, and she is allways right.' :-)
“lucille says u're wrong"😂😂 perfect timing
There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings.
Friedrich Nietzsche
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”
- Napoleon Bonaparte
There is no difference between faith and fantasy.
So is your icon a belief that you share with others, or a wishful fantasy that you share with others?
Taran Marduk the bible definition of faith is the evidence of things not seen.
@gridsleep no one in their right mind can possibly think that there is this creature that created the universe and told some random human about it and told some humans who are possibility-speaking completely imperfect (low understanding of anything, being ignorant, being bad, being insane ) to write down some stuff that could easily be copied by a fantasy novel and then hopes that humans (with his intellectual abilities) lay their hope in some god that wouldnt even proof his existence once. A god that creates universes with timelines should easily predict and influence the future as there are no limits. Why did he create the universe? For entertainment? Then why wouldnt he just skip through time? Completely irrational and delusional
@@Leo-rh6rq I'm going to spell g💩d in lower cases to tease with religious scumbags
@@AutodidactEngineer in hindsight I feel bad about expressing my believes as if I knew the truth and implying that billions of people are deluded and dumb. I still think god doesn't exist but in our minds he (or we ourselves) can do good and introduce moral value beyond objective truth. Its fun to tease people we think are deluded but I think its a bit inapproiate to do it online or in the public.
Quite a good discussion, free thinking is a gift, surrendered mind can't have it.
"Free thinking is a gift, the surrendered mind can't have it." Free thinking is outside of the cliche grabbag. You get to that place by taking an interest in words and concept. There is a satisfaction that you want to return to again and again in the creativity of this kind of thinking.
Dan good job.. That "Lucille " bit was really strong. It's putting the shoe on the other foot. If you say that to a Christian , it should hit home that it's exactly what they do with their fake God
I love the Lucile argument soooo much !! :D
why do you people have to be part of any kind of religion??? why don't you start for believing in yourself? that would be interesting
i totally agree with you,you have a really good point there.
+Lau Pe
What self? On Naturalism Self is a delusion! All of your atoms that make up YOU are sluffed off every 3 years. The physical matter that makes you up is gone. Why do you think You exist. This isn't a word game. Point is that the only thing that we have direct access to is OUR thoughts. First person introspection is a faculty of an immaterial soul, or a delusion of your brain. It is time for you to start believing in your SELF, Lau Pe! And ask the question, where did this immaterial self come from since the BIG Bang can't create immaterial things like souls.
Good luck on your journey.
exaclty u cant delimit an self.... so how do the soul delimit from the outside particle.
People do believe in themselves until they realize that it is just not enough.
@Jerf Hankell Our being, existing, is all about information, instructions arranged as DNA code rather than just the random actions of chemicals manipulated by chance over time [there was no "lucky molecule].
You are loved! It is difficult to "love' molecules!!! Smile
Luciel told me. Lol that's awesome
@UsmanHaider03 if you are implying that a higher power saved you, what would you say to the families of the 7 people who died beside you? Why didnt this higher power save them??
Dennett is absolutely right,....thank you.
FFD
As herp derp as Moyers occasionally is here, he still did a good job with the interview.
This one is a real gem.
He was like that with Campbell's Power Of Myth series. His people ignored my requests for them to bring Christ Mythicist authors to his show, Carrier and Price. I petitioned them separately.
It’s really fascinating how religion can take someone who I nearly always like and admire like Moyers and put them in herp derp mode. (Such a wonderful turn of phrase :) ) Moyers is clearly an intelligent and thoughtful guy and he’s a good interviewer, but people just assume religion is beyond questioning and, so, have never really developed any responses to basic questions.
Another example of this is Richard Dawkins’s interview with George Coyne who just exudes intelligence-clearly a brilliant man. And yet, Dawkins turns him into a befuddled mess with some basic questions.
ruclips.net/video/po0ZMfkSNxc/видео.html
@@danielboyd4079 I know exactly what you mean.
For example, I often "agree" with right-wing media personalities, or at least I can appreciate them for being rigorous or articulate.....but when it comes to their imaginary friend stuff there's an obviously irrational compartmentalization happening there; and what I like to do is just pretend they're suffering a stroke and wait until they recover and move to another topic.
"what does god want, cos this is a weird way to achieve it, if god is
perfect he should be happy in his own company, what does he need humans
for, or, if he does need humans for some obscure reason, why not make us
sycophantic god-worshipping robots at the outset?"
Wonderful post. Wow, intelligent discussion. It can give a person hope.
Hallefuckinglujah!!!
4:30 He just said “if it says so (in the book), then it settles it for me (that it’s true).”
But then that would mean that he would be beholden to every text of every religion, because they all assert that they’re the truth. They’re all different, and they can’t all be right, if any of them are even right at all...
And believing just because it’s in there...oh man, proving god with the bible is like proving Superman with comic books 🤣
I tried as hard as I could to believe in religion because I wanted to be a good person. And that’s why I wasn’t a good person.
I truly feel free in my mind now I am grateful
@r0rozx
the words between [>>>] is from the translator , not present in the original arabic text.
As the newest translation is 50 years old , so they didn't know piercing what , so they explained it like that .
Now as we know the black holes , the verse and arabic word (thokb) is is very indicative to the black hole (in arabic>> al thokb al aswad)
Can somebody tell me where to find the rest of this please?
I have never been treated for any mental conditions but I happen to know many people who struggle with anxiety, trauma, addictions & have tried just about everything without any success. I have a degree in Biopsychology, I have also a certificate in counselling but I won't work in a system that only offers band-aids as a solution. I have read dozens of books written by scholars on Trauma, PSTD and Addictions & I have a tendency to draw my own conclusion. My current interest is on epigenetics.
You're right. And it's a tendency we should all be aware of in ourselves. Ideologies are the lenses through which we view the world and they can give us a very distorted perception. We need to be willing to look honestly at information that doesn't 'fit' our preferred version of reality. Hard to do.
Excellent clip! :D
The problem with religion is that it relies on vagueness by nature and probably by design. It allows a Christian to find messages from God in anything if he believes hard enough, even the Christian tagline, "God works in mysterious ways" advertises the fact that their concept of God is vague enough to let you justify anything, while their punishments are extreme enough to keep you fearful and control your behaviour. The fact faith is prioritized over rational thinking constantly, should be a red flag to anyone.
Nailed it !
im going with the man and the sailor beard !!!!!
Right, we're on the same page then.
I just never had any. I was born into a Christian family, went through Sunday school, church etc. But it never caught on. I remember that even from an early age I didn't believe much of it. It's not that I had a bad experience ether, I had good friends in the church and we had a good time there but at the end of the day I just lacked faith.
I prefer it that way, it led me to become more interested in science and I ended up as a chemical engineer!
That's crossing a divide where the empirical support is a bit dodgy for me, not the least because it tends to be conflated with ideological or political issues. You can certainly recommend materials for me to look at -- I can't say I have kept up with breaking developments on that end of things. If they answer to a scientific standard worth the time to read them, I will.
What sort of research do you do on trauma, out of curiosity?
Bill Moyers is by far and large my favorite journalist and host. He is so friendly. Draws out the guest. Seeks common ground while discussing differences. He never puts forth his beliefs as adamantine.
He comes close in this one. The faith gene. This is part of Dennetts issue. People who stop thinking. Bill incorrectly asserts and describes faith as a biological component. As if to say you have to remove his religious DNA to not be faithful. This is gross thinking and proves that theists stop thinking.
No one is born a theist. There is no DNA coding for theism. You learn it and it tells you to stop learning.
Theists, as Dennett says, have a faith card that so far everyone is supposed to respect. But in actuality fear. The non faithful, by the faithfulls behavior, has been taught to fear the faithful. So when the non believer tries to assert equality the faithful denies it and claims privilege. This is what the faithful are taught. You are exceptional. You are favored. To engender bonding to the religion. Its BS. Atheist want theist to think because if they do they may realize they are harming humanity. And ideally, that religion isn't real. Try reading any religious text with a critical mind. Try to see it from an intelligent perspective. You will realize what atheists are trying to tell you. It doesn't make sense and if you follow it truly, you will be a criminal.
The problem for theist who take religion lightly is that as long as you are a theist you will always have one foot in the world that brings suffering and death to others. All it will take to go from theist who loves thy neighbor and does no harm to others is on seriously bad thing happening in your life and now you want apostates dead. Atheists don't do that. They follow natural morality. There is no trap to fall into. No scripture that tells us genocide, murder, slavery, rape, etc... is good because an imaginary friend says so.
My only thing is to keep it to yourself. Just because your religious doesn't mean anybody else should have to follow YOUR set of rules.
Awesome!!!
alguem pode dar uma maozinha e por legendas pra aqueles q nao dominam o idioma. valeu!
Great one 👏👏👏👏
Absolutely right 👍🏻
In other words, the believers owe the non believers an explanation, but they can't give it. They hence have no option but to dance around and lie about things.
You first. Come back in a year or two and tell us how it went. I look forward to your report.
Even if there were a god from which we got our morality, that morality would be the subjective, personal preferences of that god.
@squamish4244
What evidence do we have that consciousness is not purely a function of the brain?
0:14 THE GRUDGE!
@BlameRepublicans I didn't mean theism, I meant survival of consciousness after death, which is not necessarily related. More research needs to be done in this area, which CAN be researched, unlike whether there is a God or not.
I belong to religion but I still agree with this guy. I think it's important that I can explain my views past the fact that the Vedas or Bhagavad Gita say something is right. What I personally like about my scripture is that they offer me room to do so and encourage me to do so, but I really think this is something that people of other religions can and need to make sure they're doing as well. It's doable; you don't need to be an atheist to be able to explain yourself. :)
@BlameRepublicans You are the first person on one of these videos who has acknowledged that the survival of consciousness is a phenomenon that can be studied. Everyone else has replied with a knee-jerk ''consciousness dies with the brain'' backlash. I say let research be done in this field and let it speak for itself.
Agree 100%. Playing the faith card (or the "lucille" card) is not an argument. Its an attempt to cut off discussion and thinking and replace it with blind faith. Enough. Religious ethics do have a role to play in our society and in our govenments, but decisions cannot be made - or problems solved - simply by letting "faith" do the heavy lifting.
Well said sir.
@mjh012363 well,..yeah that's my point, accepting things without a good reason to isn't the smartess thing to do is it? accepting things because they make you feel good isn't always the best thing to do when it comes to reality, that's why reason is always the best approach to take when it comes to making a decision
I really appreciate what Dennett is saying here - it's different from the typical naïve atheist position you encounter on RUclips. His point is actually quite tolerant to faith. What really matters is "what should we do?" rather than "how old do you think the earth is?".
@muphart
In what conceivable way is using our critical faculties "religious bs"?
Atheism can also be quite comforting in that it posits a finite life where you go out like a lightbulb and no more worries, a final rest. But entertain the notion that perhaps the light doesn't go out, and you may find yourself in places unknown after death, and a great deal of fear can come up. It has for me.
He's right
@moroney1 Indeed it is. Some scholars have theorized that the weakening of traditional religion in the 20th Century left a void for 'meaning' that was filled by the doctrines of Nazism and communism, and now consumerism (endlessly buying shit to make ourselves feel better). This is not an attack on science, it is an observation of how people's yearning for meaning in their lives, undermined by scientific research, has created a serious problem in our culture.
@moroney1 No, it is just human nature to search for meaning. That is what brought religion into existence in the first place, not the other way around. Wanting your own or your loved ones lives to mean more than a flash in the pan of limitless time. This is a separate issue from the truth of science. It is a fundamental issue of being human that we will do anything to avoid - buying stuff, partying, etc. - or even forming a belief system out of atheism to provide meaning.
Logical thinking is so hard - just give me a book of rules, so I know whats what:-)
@squamish4244 Well he had his problems too, and it's not likely that I sympathize for his deeds or his person, still, what is said in this citation is clearly verifiable, and I admire these critical observations of the flaws, specially when it's towards religion, which is what people have the tradition and the habit of NOT criticizing.
@r0rozx
PLease send me your yahoo e-mail or skybe account_no problem if don't want_
to make the discussion easier for both of us .
500 letters are not enough :(
Also youtube prevents posting links .
I find myself agreeing so much with Dennett on this.
If you have never been pushed or damaged past the breaking point, I am glad to hear it and I surely hope you never are. However, I would ask you to consider even the empirical standards we like to hold firm to, when you say "Living in the present moment is not an easy task, I will admit, but the fact is that we can ALWAYS do something about it." The evidence to the contrary is very large and wide-ranging.
I'm all for mindfulness techniques -- they are powerful. But they are not all-powerful.
I have looked at pretty much all the angles on trauma, especially childhood trauma/sexual abuse, PTSD and addictions.. what it is and what can be done about it. Nothing in mainstream medicine seems to accomplish much good. All they have is some pills, useless psychotherapy, rehab centres, jails and mental wards. I study the biochemistry of it, the Psychoneuroimmunology aspects and pretty much all the sciences subjects related to this topic. I have a degree in Biopsychology & study genetics also.
Laws are still just hypotheses forwarded to model empirical data and may actually be less supported than things that are not called laws. For example, the process of evolution is an algorithm that can be proven mathematically to be a generic optimization algorithm(Look up genetic algorithms) we can literally know a lot of its properties with as much certainty as that of the laws of logic.
@TheGuinnessboys Atheists don't necessarily have to have anything against religion, it is merely the absence of theism, in fact, there's some atheists that see benefit in such doctrines, which is the case of those in atheism 3.0.
I'm an agnostic atheist, and even though I consider some religions to be a tool of mind enclosement and control through ignorance and magical and illogical thinking, I wouldn't say I actually hate them, I only hate those who manipulate people through them.
every time i try and have a discussion with reasonable and intelligent Christians or Muslims it all ways ends up coming down to faith, and once you reach that point you know you have taken them apart on every other subject, you just hit a wall
With few words, Dennett courteously and concurrently hits all the nails on all heads for its very true that compared with other thought processes, religions have and continue to have a very easy (and lazy) ride!
To "live in fear" is not the same as being thrown in a cage with a lion or whatnot. You know very well the kind of fear I am referring to. The chronic kind to be precise, where the person fear things that haven't even happened yet. Fear in the present moment is always legitimate and can be processed to a certain degree over time. Fear of losing something before it happens is created by the mind, obviously.
@NiymbleFingers ?
Did you make the assumption that I'd be interested in hearing about therapeutic uses of psychotropic substances traditionally associated with shamanism because I used the words "mindfulness" and "power." Perhaps I should have said "efficacy." :)
Mindfulness has therapeutic power because it directs the creation of new cognitive and behavioral pathways during temporarily changed brain states occurring within its practice. It's highly focused work for the patient, and it takes considerable time.
The God delusion was created by humans to avoid having to take responsibility for each other. Similarly the delusion of free will is used for the same purpose. Mainly for those with power to oppress those without. Power creates the illusion of choice.
Its the opposite, it made humans more responsible because it showed us that we only have one chance to make a positive difference. Not only that but if you dont assume theres a god, you are entirely responsible for your life and any wrong doing cannot be shifted to the devil or god.
Brilliant
@squamish4244
I agree that not all religious people are stupid. It is hard to respect and not criticize an institution that maintains itself through childhood indoctrination, when people are at their most vulnerable. This is what Dawkins states. there are many ways to give meaning to life, telling lies to children, in my opinion, should not be one of them. It is not a simple black and white situation, I agree.
@FellOnSoundGarden You can see a similar - and possibly in the long term even more damaging - trend in the way many very smart people refuse to accept the reality of man-made climate change, even though the evidence is overwhelming. On an emotional level, because of the implications that would have for their lifestyle, and the kind of conditions we may be facing up ahead, they just can't do it.
When faced with a mystery, we can either investigate said mystery or claim “I dunno, god did it” and call it a day.
Attempting to solve a mystery by appealing to an even bigger mystery is an ignorant excuse not to think and doesn’t lead to new knowledge.
@Zigiwy cont. For this discussion however my main contention is: very few religious people are pragmatists, and there's a reason. They want the world to actually have a God, an afterlife and a heaven. They don't want these to be useful illusions. Pragmatism boils down to semantics here, I could define truth as 'what the bible says' but that wouldn't make what the bible says true. It always comes back to: what is the world really like, and what can we know about it.
@FellOnSoundGarden John Wheeler: "The universe does not exist 'out there,' independent of us. We are inescapably involved in bringing about that which appears to be happening. We are not only observers. We are participators. In some strange sense, this is a participatory universe. Physics is no longer satisfied with insights only into particles, fields of force, into geometry, or even into time and space. Today we demand of physics some understanding of existence itself."
From a Theist...yes, yes and yes!
@FellOnSoundGarden That is, if you believe there is only one life - and now I've revealed my true colors. I don't believe consciousness is restricted to the brain and I think this is an important area that deserves much more research than it has been getting. Think of me what you will now, but I've spent a lot of time considering this matter and reading such physicists as Roger Penrose, John Wheeler as already noted, and the dialogues between Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli.
@itzahazylife
People don't think any better than they did thousands of years ago. I think religions are quite stupid too, but the fact of the matter is that people like their religions and aren't interested in giving up their comforts. A more scientific form of reasoning doesn't change that.
Dennett is too nice to say what Sam Harris does: that we have to apply psychic and moral pressure on those who profess unreasoned beliefs through a certain controlled conversational hostility (what Sam calls "conversational intolerance"). We have to create a powerful social stigma against unsupported belief. Rational dialogue is simply not going to cut it, in my humble opinion.
Faith in Unicorns,whats the point
Faith is the little voice in your head that says you should believe the little voice in your head.
@Lingula77 "what should we do?" to be answered intelligently, does require a certain grasp of reality. For example, with the debate on what to do about global warming, some christians argue that god promised after the flood that the earth would never be destroyed again, so there is no reason to worry about global warming.
No matter what you think about the facts of global warming, that argument is not rational and shouldn't be part of a serious conversation.
@moroney1 One possible answer is that science needs to look more intensively into the area of consciousness, which it has been neglecting for 400 years, to discover what may be there. Physicists will freely discuss alternate realities, multiple universes, wormholes, etc. but god forbid anyone suggest the mind is not confined to the brain! That's where we need to look next. Already studies of brain plasticity have yielded results far beyond what anyone had imagined two decades ago.
@squamish4244
The truth hurts at first, but only when we know it can we be in a position to give life our meaning. I think religion would be a bad thing even if it didn't cause any harm to anyone: It makes people be satisfied with ignorance. But it does cause much harm, we can probably agree on that. I think if people came to understand and accept that this is our only life, much progress can be made in the way of society and how we treat each other.
@LIGHTRONIX Please, tell us how atheism makes you stop thinking. I would love to hear that.
The morality from that god would still be that god's opinion.
@carlosewm I'm not sure you should quote a megalomaniac would-be ruler of Europe who essentially was his own god as the best source for quotes about religion.
@unclexbob Irrational arguments are not the sole province of religious people. Atheists arguing against the 'ground zero mosque' weren't able to recognize that it isn't a mosque and isn't going to be situated at ground zero. Their arguments were not rational and shouldn't have been part of a serious conversation.
Irrationalism is all around. It would be a mistake to a priori equate irrationalism with faith.
He gives a truncated view of religion. St Augustine said 'I believe that I might ultimately have understanding.' He does not say 'I don't have to think because it's cut and dried...' or anything like it. He is simply striking down an unthinking view of religion.
"you have to submit that to a scientific test??" I love how Moyers is acting like Dennet is the irrational one here 🙄
@scoop712 The realism / pragmatism / skepticism debate is an interesting one, but I'm not sure that your argument from pragmatism should give me pause in this context. First of all, pragmatism comes with huge philosophical problems, one of which is simply 'What if it's not useful?'. Another is, I (and anyone else) can just choose to disregard it since it makes no claim about its correspondence to the nature of reality. If realism is true then pragmatism is false.
@asimpleinstrument
Contrast this post with the post dirctly above. This excercise in pontification is also an exercise in overt hypocricy. Ha, ha, ha.... Funny!
Moral dilemmas, ethical concerns, ontological aspects, etymology variations, sure... But we cannot debate about matters of faith, saying: because the Bible says so is hardly an argument - as it does not use logic. Critical thinking has value only if their is some sort of factual evidence. I just don't call them "Philosophical Problems"... But you're right, maybe that's just me. I don't rely on what others think or say, I make up my own mind about what is. Words do not exist in a vacuum...
I like the way he speaks
@Downfurlife: You forgot a federal crime: religious discrimination in the workplace, housing, schools, public accommodations and facilities, zoning, persons and properties, and even prisons. "In this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." ~ George Washington
Downfurlife: hating is bad for your mental health.
Well, I would have to disagree because one can always do something about it. Which means that one would have control over it to a certain degree. That is the whole idea behind meditation & perhaps other grounding techniques. Living in the present moment is not an easy task, I will admit, but the fact is that we can ALWAYS do something about it. Humans have a very complex nervous system & it serves them for the good & the bad (so to speak). Judging is a problematic aspect of it. Have a good day!
The faith card is the following equation: (ignorance + stupidity) × (arrogance + intellectual dishonesty) = faith = god.
Yes, as Dennett says theists should explain why they believe in their religion. So, then atheists should explain why they believe in atheism, going beyond the usual case of only attempting to disapprove the arguments for the truth of christianity, by giving original arguments, reasons to think that atheism is true. But it is quite refreshing and respectable to finally see a serious atheist man!
"Apologists do not seek truth. They're basically like lawyers...advocate for their client no matter what the truth actually is" And let the chuch say "Amen" as we turn to the book of "Evidence that Demands a Mistrial" :-)
I think , therefore I am .. good for you, all the best figuring anything meaning full out for example where did I come from and where am I going .. your knowledge, reason can only take one so far even the rationalist has to admit his reason can only take him so far.. but if your happy with that then have a happy trip !The natural mind cannot comprehend the things of God 1 Corinthians 1:15
I guess you got me there: if I knew of a free cave, I'd probably occupy it myself. If I find two, though, I'll let you know.
In my opinion, the disaster we're headed towards will be mostly about uncontrolled population growth. Science and technology take some blame there, inasmuch as they have prevented people from dying horribly from disease and starvation, but it would seem immoral to me for us to not pursue such technologies. We just haven't followed it up with commensurate self-control.