I really dont agree with an underdog team showing up and performing above expectations being classed as a fluke. Imo a fluke would have been if G2 won it after being saved by a crash and having a stage invasion throwing Mouz off. Navi just stepped up and played better than the other teams and won.
True. Besides, navi couldnt have played the ct side inferno any better. Like legit, watching the demo that is the best you could play it. They left faze no options in the map. Karrigans hands were tied, and thats why that map should be removed also.
i mean we can spin that narrative however we want, Faze won Mirage 13-2, but then Navi won Inferno 13-3, even more convincingly looking at how the rounds played out and the outcalling factor. And while their run wasn't the hardest this major due to the upper side of the bracket, it's better than the last two major winner runs, because 2 out of 3 teams they played in play-offs were actually top-5, and Eternal Fire were a decent underdog team who won Faze, Vitality, and Virtus Pro right before their quarter-final... So if you think about it, it's actually a good path to Major win, the one unfortunate part is, we haven't been able to see them facing Spirit or Vitality in the final, who could've won it all, but both fumbled the bag by losing to Faze.
Very much agreed. Everyone shits on EF but no one looks at their run to see how they got to playoffs to begin with. It isn't navis fault mouz couldn't beat g2, but at the same time g2 looked amazing in that match against mouz. Then navi beat maybe the best lan team of the past two years who have only gotten better with frozen. I think it was a stellar run. Also, the mental of navi to lose mirage like that, have the crowd against them, and then dumpster faze on a map they love in inferno, I think that is the most impressive part of their run
Counter Strike fanbase is so obnoxious that people are trying to find excuses to downplay someone's achievements no matter what. Navi fluke this and navi not deserving that. The fact is that NAVI won all the games that mattered and they ended up being the last team left in the major, winning the trophy.
I remember the days when Harry and Hugo were the dedicated B stream casters. I kept thinking why don’t they get a chance to cast proper games, Hugo already practically sounds just like HenryG and Harry is also very good, but they never would. All you ever saw from them were those B streams. So glad they’re finally getting the opportunities they deserve after a long long period of grinding that lasted years ❤
In my opinion, there are some other aspects that people may miss out on AleksiB's G2 losing to Faze 3-0 at Katowice 2022 - Monesy had just joined the team and that was his 1st big LAN event (correct me if I'm wrong though). I believe he was announced somewhere around Christmas time by Carlos. He was not the player he is today, probably not even near that. - Every map went the distance. 2 maps went into overtime including that ridiculous comeback by Faze on Inferno. The 3rd Map, d2, was 16-14. With just a bit of luck going their way, G2 would've probably 3-0'd faze. - Niko shat the bed in another big event finals. Thorin already pointed out it was Jackz instead of JKS which in itself is a huge difference.
I think the Navi win was well deserved, they played great team CS and some indivuals really stepped up when needed. Having said that, I think iM will need to keep above a 1.0 rating for Navi to be consistent tier 1 champions. Stranger things have happened though.
The only bad games he played were against C9 and Spirit, otherwise ok/good performance. The biggest problem was to get everyone locked in, usually there is only wonderful and JL that carries. In the finals ancient and inferno the whole team was fragging on an ok level and they dominated easily....well B1t went crazy on inf XD
Not even that for them to keep being champs b1t NEEDS to be his 2021 self, lets be real here so far in cs2 he’s been mostly missing, he showed up when it mattered sure but how many times can that happen?
@@vinsmoke2865 He showed up when it mattered, you can see he's still got it so his previous poor performances looks to be entirely mental. Now that the boys have won a major hopefully whatever mental block that was making them look so shaky is gone.
30:00 I still think the hardest argument for Aleksib's stint in G2 is that monesy could pretty much only play mirage at that point and was completely undeveloped.
I actually really love the RMRs, maybe the rankings can just be invited to closed qual so we dont deal with the open qual bs but I would really hate to see them gone. I know some dont like that there is so much pressure with having to qualify and that for lower lvl teams it seems even better than making playoffs but I really dont care, I love the system, I love seeing people shout and cry tears of joy at qualifying, like we saw with Saw and Lynn Vision, and I like the disappointment we see from teams like Falcons when they dont.
thorins constant use of tennis analogy is so bang on. I personally don't follow tennis but I can identify similarities to golf which helps me conceptualize these ideas that are brought forth. F1 analogies need some work though
30:00 and a rookie monesy, sure he was still banging but imagine aleksi had 2024 monesy on that team... mate fuck the jackz and jks angle, I reckon they do more damage with an inform monesy
Losing to peanut brain Tarik, washed up Skadoodle, and "smoke criminal" stewie in the major finals when you have Guardian, olof, and niko is haunting. Losing to Aleksi, wonderful and B1t with Blad3 as coach, sucks but it's not like the boston major loss
But losing in Denmark after having battled your way past the best teams in the world to get there? And it's your fourth final? I'd argue it's at least equal for karrigan.
Yeah I feel so bad for Karrigan, losing on home turf in the one tournament you probably wanted to win most in your career with people memeing on your performance in the last map. Most devastating loss I've seen in 10 years for a player. Happy for Aleksi though.
Fluke doesn’t mean that they didn’t deserve to win, just that if you were to play the tournament over 10 times they would be u likely to win it more than once or twice. They outplayed every opponent, but it’s u likely they will win more tournaments coming up. They can prove us wrong though and i hope they do.
Real question is, is this the weakest major winning line up? The contender is gambit 2017 which heavily relied on dosia/adren/mou overperforming just like this navi needed jL and b1t to drag them across the finish line
@@cowboyevanthey don't need to win tournaments to prove this isn't a "fluke", they need to be competitive make a semi final etc and then it's the same circumstance - they're not favourites but if things fall their way anything can happen. Gamerlegion and apeks were flukes they didn't even remotely come close to contention after paris. I think it's a very weird reductive argument that either you are an elite favourite team and you win or you can never be an elite team and any wins you get are flukes
@@jamesduckett5963 That’s a fair point. I think that Spirit, Vitality and Faze will all end up with more tournament wins than Navi this year, but if they are competitive it won’t have been a fluke. Honestly too early to tell. I hope that Navi stays competitive so that s1mple goes to another team (TL please)
Just to understand, it is ugly that a team (any team) is winning by being well prepared, hard working and having a teamwork that is not dependent on a superstar that chokes at the moment of truth (Niko on Nuke anyone?) OK, I'll take this ugly NAVI
1:05:50 thorin on the money again, karrigan was playing lights out. Prior to the grand finals, karrigan had a positive 1.0 rating, in antwerp he also had a positive 1.0 rating. Everything dictated that karrigan was poised to lift the first cs2 major trophy... Well we know what happened next though. P.S. hot take maybe, maybe not but karrigans FRAGGING was the reason FaZe Clan beat Team Spirit.
The problem here is, ZywOo probably doesn't watch these Thorin videos but I wish he did, because listening to them stating facts and putting him (and his stans) in their places, that would hopefully put a fire in his ass and push him to perform when it REALLY matters, all these banana cup victories won't matter in the end, in the long run people remember the Majors and the elite tournaments.
Cologne and Katowice should have a similar status to Majors. Just like in a lot of sports a World Championship is almost as big but not the same as an Olympic Gold medal.
I remember watching OG back when alexsi was there... and while they had some stinkers for sure I swear they were some games and matches that they played so so close, i remember being excited to watch OG play top teams because there was always a chance for some crazy OT game and I loved it. I think those OG rosters were a lot like navi now, except way less firepower and a horrible system / coaching, paired with the fact that it was all online so no boot camps.
On the Vertigo hot take, examples of recent games on Vertigo ranging from great to bonkers, just in this major: - Mouz vs EF [2-0 pool in Elim stage] - EF vs Heroic [2-0 pool in Opening stage; Epic "series game" Going 3-0, 3-9, 12-9, 12-12 + 1 OT; with very strong T-sides] - Heroic vs Complexity [BO1; 1 or 2 OT's with godlike Elige doing sick stuff like his fully-blind 3K AK spray as CT vs T's coming up ramp] - GL vs EF [Decider map during the Opening stage, ending with 1vs1 clutch isak failing to kill the ninja defuse through smoke] - Most recent games from SAW (except when they choked at the end of the Opening stage) Vertigo is much more satisfaying to watch than Inferno atm. The asymetry of the map having a middle on upper but a connector on lower, making it very fast for T's to change bombsite, the great use of utility, namely HE's you can do on this map. + The design is very cool. Dno why Thorin & Maui are so against it. Inferno is at the worst state it's ever been. Excellent points from Hugo
How is it so hard to stick to the fact instead to just your preconceived false notions ? - It is so dumb to call Zywoo a playoff choker when his first ever Cologne was ESL one Cologne 2019 and he played out of his mind in front of a crowd where he got the MVP after losing in the finals to a stacked liquid while being the best in the server , Thorin's last ESL events before New York . Remember that every Lan that Vitality ever won , Zywoo was the MVP . - In every Major playoff game that Vitality ever lost in a Major , Zywoo was the best player in his team (highest rating , highest ADR) , NiKo and Simple were not in those kind of games . - He has never had below 1.11 rating in a playoff loss in a Major . Both Niko and Simple had worse rating in the same Majors that Zywoo played and even before that . - Zywoo's lowest rating in a Major ever is 1.08 , Niko's is 1.00 and Simple's is 1.07 . - Against Top 10 in the Majors , Zywoo is the third highest rated player after Cold and Simple . If you go back and watch every playoff game where Vitality faced a loss, you'll notice that Zywoo didn't necessarily choke; rather, the opposing team simply outperformed them. While he could have potentially taken more risks or adjusted his playstyle mid-game, he typically chooses not to do so in those situations for reasons nobody knows except him and his teammates. Btw device is not in this comparison because he was actually choking , playing his worst games ever in some playoffs .
You are cherry picking stats. The problem is that when you talk about GOAT status you are comparing ZywOo to the absolute best (s1mple and device, mainly) so he almost cannot miss in any category. It has been a known fact now that ZywOo does not perform to his best ability in the most prestige events in the world : Majors, Katowice, Cologne. He never went past quarters at a Katowice EVER, never won Cologne (you actually took the only cologne example where he actually carried like he is known to do in other events, Cologne 2019, his most impressive event ever still imo). Plus, as they mentioned, the only major he won is the major with the most underwhelming teams in the history of the game, maybe in contention with Krakow 2017, meanwhile in other majors he failed to make playoffs at 3 occasions and failed at quarters the other times. (s1mple missed major playoffs only twice in his career for your information) Meanwhile let's check s1mple and device : -s1mple won Cologne twice, and went to the grand final of Cologne 4 times as well (2016 was a major). He won Katowice on LAN in 2020 and famously hard carried NaVi in 2019 against ence in the semi-finals (it was a major). This is the type of game we are missing from ZywOo. He went to 4 major finals, and only against the absolute best teams : he lost those finals against prime SK Gaming, prime Astralis, prime Faze. For device, it's very easy, won 4 majors, won Katowice... Went to countless grand finals and semis ...He actually never won Cologne though but still :). It's not that he is bad at those events in any way, it's that to be the goat you need to perform much better at such events, hard carry some of those games and show you deserve them. ZywOo has consistently shown he cannot hard carry in those specific events the way he does in other Blast or IEM events, that's the thing. His resume is extremely lacking in those events compared to the actual GOATS of the game.
"fluke" is such a dumb word. No such thing as a fluke. They beat everyone they had to beat and they deserved it. Just because they played above their usual level doesnt mean its a fluke. Thats why majors are cool because anything can happen
yeh exactly C9 win wasnt a fluke I dont care what everyone else says. They beat G2, SK and Faze that is a legit run. Like I said a team playing above their usual level doesnt mean its a fluke. And outsiders win was not a fluke either. So with your logic any team that wins that isnt the favorite is just a fluke. That is horrible reasoning. Everyone uses fluke wrong. Fluke just means very lucky situation. The best example would be G2 winning against Virtus pro with crash. THAT is a fluke.
@@torinkeenan2718 c9 were an average team before the major, they were even playing badly at the start of it, then suddenly they played like they were the best team in the world for the playoffs. And after that they went right back to their usual level of an average team and never won anything ever again. I would count that as a fluke, also they did get lucky, faze choked.
Tuscan is a terrible map and feels like a holdover from when people played 10 v 10 casual in older CS titles. The map was way too many angles to ever be competitive.
IM had very similar stats as a rifler and was carrying his team way harder than Zywoo. The GL that made that final was based on a heroic individual performance from IM, where Zywoo had actual teammates that helped him make the finals
@@Lekeing Rifling and roles is not something taken into consideration in the MVP awards. Let me tell you how many players won the MVP after losing the final whilst the winning team had a higher rated player, a big whopping 0 times. There's been players who had a bigger rating than the winner and have not won the MVP yet IM is supposed to be close? Saying it's close is disingenuous and revisionist history. ZywOo was clearly the best player especially after the final.
@AstroSully Actually, up until the final Zywoo had a lower average rating that IM and if the final had been close then IM would have been the higher rated player in the playoffs. The final is what earned Zywoo the MVP, and the reason it was close until then is because IM had a chance if he played the final to still get the MVP, even if they lost if he played well enough.
@@Lekeing Bro is using IFS. Good thing that the finals is over. Where we know ZywOo was the highest rated player. An MVP is given after the events end. You can't judge it mid way or before it ends to deem it was close or not. After the finals it was clear cut not close.
Karrigan probably prepared for TS and Vitality... tragic but not as tragic as boston major for me Boston Major gives me nightmares to this day. Karrigan beats TS and Vitality showing who deserves to be #1 in thw world
Why would a match you never competed in, for a trophy you have never competed for, probably in a city you never have even been to give you nightmares? The only thing that makes sense is that you might have a gambling addiction you need to deal with. In that case, you have nightmares because of your poor life choices... not because of a a game.
A big thing that happens when discussing success, is that you have two very different ways of looking at it. As maui quite clearly says, its quite moronic to say that only trophies matter, thus we should analize a players skills over their achievements. But the thing that trophies do is give stock to that argument. A non csgo example would be fnatic in valorant, and how people started appreciating boaster when they won rio. People did treat him as a good igl before that, but what that win did was giving a moment you could point at to explain your reasoning. The opposite would happen with someone like m0nesy or donk. As a community we say that they are good players, but to begin placing them in the conversation for all time greats they have to win more things, especially since they are so young. (btw only morons would say that donk is a GOAT outright, we still havent seen enough).
Inferno isn't solved, CTs are not favored, and NAVI rarely does gamble stacks. CSGO Inferno was solved, but CS2 Inferno is a different map, hence actually why we don't like it. It feels like a weird mirror version of Inferno. CTs are more comfortable, but Ts have plenty of options. The prevailing way to play Banana is taking the initial control off smokes and molotovs then lurking one player. This is what Vitality did with Magisk. You can also just full force utility up to Car. Also, A Site is absolutely open for T-side and Hugo even mentions VP who love going A Site late after developing Brackets control. Ts have higher conversion rates as well because CT A Site defense is so crippled in a 4v5 scenario. Ts also have more opening opportunities since they're favored to get the Banana opening and the Apps opening while CTs only realistically have the Mid pick which is a tough shot still that's easily punished. As for NAVI, I know there's been a lot of discussion around their T-sides and sahing their CT-sides are shaky on some maps, but people need to remember that it was originally the opposite; Aleksib used to be the CT-sided IGL who couldn't develop as effectively on T-sides. On T-side, he was VP-lite who some wanted to be more aggressive like HooXi. Then on CT-sides, he read T-sides like a book. It was to the point that he had a higher CT-side winrate than T-side winrate on Inferno depsite it being the most T-sided at the time before Anubis got released. Aleksib doesn’t make the karrigan gamble play. He makes the late read, that Round 15+ read after he's figured out the enemy team.
You know when you do good and have succes when losers who never achive anithing when they was pro players trash talk you. iM 2 MAJOR finals 1 major winner MAUISNAKE 0 tier 3 NA player who never achive anything in his life, also not a signle org not want to work with him.
My comment got deleted for linking hltv, but jl, wonderful and b1t went 54-14 combined kills to death on Inferno. Individual skill adds variance to the game no matter how stale a map is.
@@peepopoo4387 I disagree. FaZe is mechanically even better than NaVi - Karrigan had a bad map for sure, but he never had a chance, because he was outplayed. I think that that day Aleksib had better read of the game than Karrigan and with Blade-system NaVi outperformed FaZe - Map is not solved, but it's rather the ultimate playground of IGL's. It's super interesting to watch.
I think the entire cs community would just love to see iM benched and S1mple brought back! That is a fact, and only then could they win a major the proper way with 1.9 stats across the board not dropping a map on their run!
S1mple is the GOAT and still beloved by the community, but he's tarnished his reputation the last few years with his treatment of teammates like SDY. Navi immediately looking like a more cohesive team as soon as he's out of the lineup isn't the best look either and makes it look like his toxicity was actually holding back players like jL.
@@skryyper6706 even when s1mple was 18 he beat fnatic, navi etc in major playoffs on a shit liquid team where elige wasnt himself yet and they had adren shut the fuck up and do ur research, if ur gonna compare zywoo as the goat he i sgoing to have goat standards and the standard is s1mple, he from day 1 was carrying his team past top 5 teams at major playoffs, zywoo hasnt
It is a fluke, jL turned on wall hacks + aimbot After Navi lost against c9 His rating is not normal during the playoffs And out of nowhere b1t went and became the 2nd coming of the edshot machine Mf was getting multi-kill headshots whenever navi were about to lose. The only caviat of this narrative is how much aleksib contributed to their sucess Cuz there were many sequences where aleksib called and made plays for jL and b1t which allowed them to shine. People should not forget how faze crumbled in inferno, aleksi's plays + b1t's aim + jL's confidence = destruction
Wake up Thorin, LeBron James has some of the best playoffs clutch stats in NBA History. You should know better as someone who likes to doesn't fall for generic media slander.
Navi’s major run was not a fluke. They were consistently mixing it up with the best teams in the world, going deep into playoffs. It’s not like they were doing nothing before the major. I think a lot of peoples perspectives were colored by how Navi played at the major, where they looked the weakest they have in a while. It’s a testament to blade and aleksis abilities that the team functioned so well despite im, bit, and aleksis individual form was so bad. As far as the bracket goes, Navi could have beat every one of those teams. I would actually say Navi is more likely to win than loose against mouz, we saw how they collapsed against g2, obv they beat eternal fire and g2. They match up well against spirit, and with the sudden increase in pressure on spirit + zontix not playing well they would have a very good shot against spirit especially with aleksi and blade counterstratting. Vitality and cloud9 are scarier, cloud9 had just beaten Navi in swiss and vitality was scary even without zywoo playing well. Navi still has a decent chance against both though. Lastly, they beat faze in a grand final, it’s just hard to top that. Frankly I think that’s good evidence that they have a solid shot against any team in the top 8. Would they win the plurality of 20 randomized brackets? Maybe not. But they would probably end up higher than mouz, ef, g2, maybe even cloud9 and spirit. Just think that Navi aren’t getting enough credit, especially blade and aleksi, for a pretty legit run through the playoffs, actually more difficult than a lot of other major winning teams have faced in the past.
sure ZywOo is not the GOAT yet, but using 2019 Berlin Major is such a joke, NAVI 0:2 NRG s1mple 1.07 ; FaZe 1:2 Renegades NiKo 1.00 and somehow Vitality vs avangar ZywOo's 1.19 and second most kill in the game and he is to blame on that game?
w0nderful has an insanely high skill ceiling that is not being shown by his safe style used in the system. His mechanics alone if utilised properly will easily propel him to superstar level. This guy is the next big thing, if things go well he will be competing with m0nesy. Time will tell, but he has the potential. This isn’t another “Sunpayus”.
there is not really an system for w0ndeful? Even blade said that aleksib lets wonderful make his own plays and also aleksi has to tell wonderful to be more proactive around the map. if im not wrong wonderfuls playstyle has always been little bit more passive. His still new on navi and he will definetly be the next big thing.
:)))) It's a "fluke" that they played with B1ad3 in Malta leaving the question "what do we do now without the star player? can a yet unconfirmed igl or tier 2 players who were coming after a good major become a certainty? can we rely on them?" Time passed, work was done, Wonderful came and I forget they won the major because of teamwork. Shame on you as an analyst if you think it was a fluke
I was already like Hugo in the final, but then i heard this "jL won the game on that round4"- shit, like no decent team in a map has those rounds and still rocks the server but g2 didn't. So piss off.
Which teams, according to the redhead, won the major not by chance? Such inspiration that for him the victories of Astralis, Brazilians and Navi in 2021 were an accident.
The death of the RMR is music to my ears, that tournament is utter shit and the fact it is actually more important than the actual major shows it needs to go, I couldn't care less if Asia or NA has less slots and that CS is a eurocentric game. tthey should literally just copy the ATP structure from Tennis or take inspriation from it: ATP 250, ATP 500, ATP 1000, Grand Slam and then your placing on the world ranking is based on your average placing in these tournaments, exactly like Tennis, it's not that hard Valve. Regarding Vertigo and Inferno, why does it have to be either or? they can both be replaced, I would absolutely welcome two new maps give me Tuscan or Santorini and bring back Train.
37:15 When I hear this from a guy claiming to be the historian LMAO G2 with AleksiB was a continuous downward spiral : Finals in Katowice22 is the best result and it was the first event and it was down hill from that , not qualifying to the rio major , going out in the groups of EPL 15 , Cologne , not winning any event , even once like Blast spring or IEM dallas were we had problem teams be the winners like C9 and Navi with sdy and the Ukr,RU situation .
31:09 this is Thorin’s proud father moment of Maui bringing up niche petty grievances and putting a classic “dickhead?” at the end
Damn that make up gain on my mixer didn't help, huh.
Also, fuck Inferno.
Not ideal but we could hear you fine. No worries
Inferno is strange. I used to play it exclusively when I first started playing CSGO in 2016, but now I avoid it at all cost.
plug in office usb mic > your setup
maybe you plug your mic in Line input (instead of mic input) which causing the distortion
Pimp mic™ real popular these days
I really dont agree with an underdog team showing up and performing above expectations being classed as a fluke.
Imo a fluke would have been if G2 won it after being saved by a crash and having a stage invasion throwing Mouz off. Navi just stepped up and played better than the other teams and won.
True. Besides, navi couldnt have played the ct side inferno any better. Like legit, watching the demo that is the best you could play it. They left faze no options in the map. Karrigans hands were tied, and thats why that map should be removed also.
i mean we can spin that narrative however we want, Faze won Mirage 13-2, but then Navi won Inferno 13-3, even more convincingly looking at how the rounds played out and the outcalling factor. And while their run wasn't the hardest this major due to the upper side of the bracket, it's better than the last two major winner runs, because 2 out of 3 teams they played in play-offs were actually top-5, and Eternal Fire were a decent underdog team who won Faze, Vitality, and Virtus Pro right before their quarter-final... So if you think about it, it's actually a good path to Major win, the one unfortunate part is, we haven't been able to see them facing Spirit or Vitality in the final, who could've won it all, but both fumbled the bag by losing to Faze.
Very much agreed. Everyone shits on EF but no one looks at their run to see how they got to playoffs to begin with. It isn't navis fault mouz couldn't beat g2, but at the same time g2 looked amazing in that match against mouz. Then navi beat maybe the best lan team of the past two years who have only gotten better with frozen. I think it was a stellar run. Also, the mental of navi to lose mirage like that, have the crowd against them, and then dumpster faze on a map they love in inferno, I think that is the most impressive part of their run
Counter Strike fanbase is so obnoxious that people are trying to find excuses to downplay someone's achievements no matter what. Navi fluke this and navi not deserving that.
The fact is that NAVI won all the games that mattered and they ended up being the last team left in the major, winning the trophy.
@@75ncv4hu9tg7 6 grand finals appearance and 4 tournament wins later, there's still excuses lmao
31:23 The CS community was forever changed by the What About Today rant and I love it 😂
R Lewis cultural impact
I remember the days when Harry and Hugo were the dedicated B stream casters. I kept thinking why don’t they get a chance to cast proper games, Hugo already practically sounds just like HenryG and Harry is also very good, but they never would. All you ever saw from them were those B streams. So glad they’re finally getting the opportunities they deserve after a long long period of grinding that lasted years ❤
Dam that mic is blasting
In my opinion, there are some other aspects that people may miss out on AleksiB's G2 losing to Faze 3-0 at Katowice 2022
- Monesy had just joined the team and that was his 1st big LAN event (correct me if I'm wrong though). I believe he was announced somewhere around Christmas time by Carlos. He was not the player he is today, probably not even near that.
- Every map went the distance. 2 maps went into overtime including that ridiculous comeback by Faze on Inferno. The 3rd Map, d2, was 16-14. With just a bit of luck going their way, G2 would've probably 3-0'd faze.
- Niko shat the bed in another big event finals.
Thorin already pointed out it was Jackz instead of JKS which in itself is a huge difference.
Well said!
Didn’t know Thorin was so well versed in prop comedy, great episode as usual! 😂
hugo sounds like a military dispatch commander with that mic compression
Niko and cutting IGLs who go on to win the major before he does, a great duo
I think the Navi win was well deserved, they played great team CS and some indivuals really stepped up when needed.
Having said that, I think iM will need to keep above a 1.0 rating for Navi to be consistent tier 1 champions. Stranger things have happened though.
The only bad games he played were against C9 and Spirit, otherwise ok/good performance. The biggest problem was to get everyone locked in, usually there is only wonderful and JL that carries. In the finals ancient and inferno the whole team was fragging on an ok level and they dominated easily....well B1t went crazy on inf XD
Not even that for them to keep being champs b1t NEEDS to be his 2021 self, lets be real here so far in cs2 he’s been mostly missing, he showed up when it mattered sure but how many times can that happen?
@@vinsmoke2865 He showed up when it mattered, you can see he's still got it so his previous poor performances looks to be entirely mental. Now that the boys have won a major hopefully whatever mental block that was making them look so shaky is gone.
You couldnt play ct side inferno any better than how navi played it. They left faze no chance in mid rounds.
@@Aapee1 agreed
Great to have Hugo on!
I LOVE COMING HOME TO NEW LFN AND THOOORIN CONTENT FUUUUUUCO
30:00 I still think the hardest argument for Aleksib's stint in G2 is that monesy could pretty much only play mirage at that point and was completely undeveloped.
I actually really love the RMRs, maybe the rankings can just be invited to closed qual so we dont deal with the open qual bs but I would really hate to see them gone. I know some dont like that there is so much pressure with having to qualify and that for lower lvl teams it seems even better than making playoffs but I really dont care, I love the system, I love seeing people shout and cry tears of joy at qualifying, like we saw with Saw and Lynn Vision, and I like the disappointment we see from teams like Falcons when they dont.
46:28 for anyone who missed it, look at Thorin's webcam
Teamwork wins majors, but insane clutches are needed too on the road to the trophy. Navi had teamwork and barely but enough of the latter
G2 catching SO many strays in this episode lmao I love it
thorins constant use of tennis analogy is so bang on. I personally don't follow tennis but I can identify similarities to golf which helps me conceptualize these ideas that are brought forth. F1 analogies need some work though
Biguzera not being on a better team is such a crime.
30:00 and a rookie monesy, sure he was still banging but imagine aleksi had 2024 monesy on that team... mate fuck the jackz and jks angle, I reckon they do more damage with an inform monesy
I love episodes like these when the speakers have contradicting opinions
What an epic ending holy moly... Where is the petition to get thooorin on the desk to roast Hooxi?
Loved Hugo on the show
Bro I was dieing waiting for these after the major but guess we have to wait longer for a good 1
Losing to peanut brain Tarik, washed up Skadoodle, and "smoke criminal" stewie in the major finals
when you have Guardian, olof, and niko is haunting.
Losing to Aleksi, wonderful and B1t with Blad3 as coach, sucks but it's not like the boston major loss
But losing in Denmark after having battled your way past the best teams in the world to get there? And it's your fourth final? I'd argue it's at least equal for karrigan.
Ska wasn't washed up at that point and was playing like a beast in that tournament.
@@peepopoo4387 he played amazing during that tournament but he wasn't that great before and after that tournament
Yeah I feel so bad for Karrigan, losing on home turf in the one tournament you probably wanted to win most in your career with people memeing on your performance in the last map. Most devastating loss I've seen in 10 years for a player. Happy for Aleksi though.
It was not a fluke, Champions win the most crucial rounds. Almost every crucial round went to Navi, which is top-tier
Fluke doesn’t mean that they didn’t deserve to win, just that if you were to play the tournament over 10 times they would be u likely to win it more than once or twice. They outplayed every opponent, but it’s u likely they will win more tournaments coming up. They can prove us wrong though and i hope they do.
Real question is, is this the weakest major winning line up? The contender is gambit 2017 which heavily relied on dosia/adren/mou overperforming just like this navi needed jL and b1t to drag them across the finish line
@@FelipeNascimento-ch1erId say Boston or Rio are pretty good contenders too!
@@cowboyevanthey don't need to win tournaments to prove this isn't a "fluke", they need to be competitive make a semi final etc and then it's the same circumstance - they're not favourites but if things fall their way anything can happen. Gamerlegion and apeks were flukes they didn't even remotely come close to contention after paris. I think it's a very weird reductive argument that either you are an elite favourite team and you win or you can never be an elite team and any wins you get are flukes
@@jamesduckett5963 That’s a fair point. I think that Spirit, Vitality and Faze will all end up with more tournament wins than Navi this year, but if they are competitive it won’t have been a fluke. Honestly too early to tell. I hope that Navi stays competitive so that s1mple goes to another team (TL please)
53:05 the restraint is palpable
I'll name a sick vert game from the major. Col vs heroic.
Hugo is the man , great to have him on !
Just to understand, it is ugly that a team (any team) is winning by being well prepared, hard working and having a teamwork that is not dependent on a superstar that chokes at the moment of truth (Niko on Nuke anyone?)
OK, I'll take this ugly NAVI
1:05:50 thorin on the money again, karrigan was playing lights out. Prior to the grand finals, karrigan had a positive 1.0 rating, in antwerp he also had a positive 1.0 rating. Everything dictated that karrigan was poised to lift the first cs2 major trophy... Well we know what happened next though. P.S. hot take maybe, maybe not but karrigans FRAGGING was the reason FaZe Clan beat Team Spirit.
Extra crispy mic
The problem here is, ZywOo probably doesn't watch these Thorin videos but I wish he did, because listening to them stating facts and putting him (and his stans) in their places, that would hopefully put a fire in his ass and push him to perform when it REALLY matters, all these banana cup victories won't matter in the end, in the long run people remember the Majors and the elite tournaments.
50:19 ABSOLUTE BANGER TAKE.
That shows how badly designed that map is.
Cologne and Katowice should have a similar status to Majors. Just like in a lot of sports a World Championship is almost as big but not the same as an Olympic Gold medal.
so this one is Hugo...
I remember watching OG back when alexsi was there... and while they had some stinkers for sure I swear they were some games and matches that they played so so close, i remember being excited to watch OG play top teams because there was always a chance for some crazy OT game and I loved it. I think those OG rosters were a lot like navi now, except way less firepower and a horrible system / coaching, paired with the fact that it was all online so no boot camps.
1:49:39 Maui likes Chad(Spunj) alot and has also hung out in his room... HMMMMM...
hugo out here looking like Beaker
Those are Thorin's super secret kinder surprise toys!
Would be totally there for Thoorin bringing the bants on stage to Hooxi.
for some reason i read this videos title as "Snake & Banter 53 foot Hugo"
I like thorin, he's like the character straight from a Guy Ritchie movie
Its funny thorin said on inferno you dont say "haha zywoo go kill" because there is 2 clips of him doing exactly that on inferno banana 😂😂
Inferno is still an ok map , G2 v VP is one of the best games of the tournament .
45:05 g2 vp at the major? you casted it hugo lol
On the Vertigo hot take, examples of recent games on Vertigo ranging from great to bonkers, just in this major:
- Mouz vs EF [2-0 pool in Elim stage]
- EF vs Heroic [2-0 pool in Opening stage; Epic "series game" Going 3-0, 3-9, 12-9, 12-12 + 1 OT; with very strong T-sides]
- Heroic vs Complexity [BO1; 1 or 2 OT's with godlike Elige doing sick stuff like his fully-blind 3K AK spray as CT vs T's coming up ramp]
- GL vs EF [Decider map during the Opening stage, ending with 1vs1 clutch isak failing to kill the ninja defuse through smoke]
- Most recent games from SAW (except when they choked at the end of the Opening stage)
Vertigo is much more satisfaying to watch than Inferno atm. The asymetry of the map having a middle on upper but a connector on lower, making it very fast for T's to change bombsite, the great use of utility, namely HE's you can do on this map. + The design is very cool. Dno why Thorin & Maui are so against it.
Inferno is at the worst state it's ever been. Excellent points from Hugo
Are they trolling now and just letting Thorin talk for 15mins straight :D
I bloody love navi
How is it so hard to stick to the fact instead to just your preconceived false notions ?
- It is so dumb to call Zywoo a playoff choker when his first ever Cologne was ESL one Cologne 2019 and he played out of his mind in front of a crowd where he got the MVP after losing in the finals to a stacked liquid while being the best in the server , Thorin's last ESL events before New York . Remember that every Lan that Vitality ever won , Zywoo was the MVP .
- In every Major playoff game that Vitality ever lost in a Major , Zywoo was the best player in his team (highest rating , highest ADR) , NiKo and Simple were not in those kind of games .
- He has never had below 1.11 rating in a playoff loss in a Major . Both Niko and Simple had worse rating in the same Majors that Zywoo played and even before that .
- Zywoo's lowest rating in a Major ever is 1.08 , Niko's is 1.00 and Simple's is 1.07 .
- Against Top 10 in the Majors , Zywoo is the third highest rated player after Cold and Simple .
If you go back and watch every playoff game where Vitality faced a loss, you'll notice that Zywoo didn't necessarily choke; rather, the opposing team simply outperformed them. While he could have potentially taken more risks or adjusted his playstyle mid-game, he typically chooses not to do so in those situations for reasons nobody knows except him and his teammates.
Btw device is not in this comparison because he was actually choking , playing his worst games ever in some playoffs .
You are cherry picking stats. The problem is that when you talk about GOAT status you are comparing ZywOo to the absolute best (s1mple and device, mainly) so he almost cannot miss in any category. It has been a known fact now that ZywOo does not perform to his best ability in the most prestige events in the world : Majors, Katowice, Cologne. He never went past quarters at a Katowice EVER, never won Cologne (you actually took the only cologne example where he actually carried like he is known to do in other events, Cologne 2019, his most impressive event ever still imo). Plus, as they mentioned, the only major he won is the major with the most underwhelming teams in the history of the game, maybe in contention with Krakow 2017, meanwhile in other majors he failed to make playoffs at 3 occasions and failed at quarters the other times. (s1mple missed major playoffs only twice in his career for your information)
Meanwhile let's check s1mple and device :
-s1mple won Cologne twice, and went to the grand final of Cologne 4 times as well (2016 was a major). He won Katowice on LAN in 2020 and famously hard carried NaVi in 2019 against ence in the semi-finals (it was a major). This is the type of game we are missing from ZywOo. He went to 4 major finals, and only against the absolute best teams : he lost those finals against prime SK Gaming, prime Astralis, prime Faze.
For device, it's very easy, won 4 majors, won Katowice... Went to countless grand finals and semis ...He actually never won Cologne though but still :).
It's not that he is bad at those events in any way, it's that to be the goat you need to perform much better at such events, hard carry some of those games and show you deserve them. ZywOo has consistently shown he cannot hard carry in those specific events the way he does in other Blast or IEM events, that's the thing. His resume is extremely lacking in those events compared to the actual GOATS of the game.
Thorin brought the kinder-egg toys to the pod 😭
Thanks ❤
Hooxi doesnt think Niko, hunter, and monesy is enough firepower 😂
"fluke" is such a dumb word. No such thing as a fluke. They beat everyone they had to beat and they deserved it. Just because they played above their usual level doesnt mean its a fluke. Thats why majors are cool because anything can happen
With that logic C9's win in boston wasn't a fluke either, and i think everyone would agree that it was definitely a fluke.
yeh exactly C9 win wasnt a fluke I dont care what everyone else says. They beat G2, SK and Faze that is a legit run. Like I said a team playing above their usual level doesnt mean its a fluke. And outsiders win was not a fluke either. So with your logic any team that wins that isnt the favorite is just a fluke. That is horrible reasoning. Everyone uses fluke wrong. Fluke just means very lucky situation. The best example would be G2 winning against Virtus pro with crash. THAT is a fluke.
@@torinkeenan2718 c9 were an average team before the major, they were even playing badly at the start of it, then suddenly they played like they were the best team in the world for the playoffs. And after that they went right back to their usual level of an average team and never won anything ever again. I would count that as a fluke, also they did get lucky, faze choked.
If we compromise and get rid of Inferno and Vertigo. I'd like Tuscan and Train in their place.
Tuscan is a terrible map and feels like a holdover from when people played 10 v 10 casual in older CS titles. The map was way too many angles to ever be competitive.
Vertigo has never in its history been more entertaining to watch than Inferno.That map it seems will always be shit
best show in the business
1:14:45 how did Zywoo barely get the MVP? After the finals it was clear cut.
IM had very similar stats as a rifler and was carrying his team way harder than Zywoo. The GL that made that final was based on a heroic individual performance from IM, where Zywoo had actual teammates that helped him make the finals
@@Lekeing Rifling and roles is not something taken into consideration in the MVP awards. Let me tell you how many players won the MVP after losing the final whilst the winning team had a higher rated player, a big whopping 0 times. There's been players who had a bigger rating than the winner and have not won the MVP yet IM is supposed to be close? Saying it's close is disingenuous and revisionist history. ZywOo was clearly the best player especially after the final.
@AstroSully Actually, up until the final Zywoo had a lower average rating that IM and if the final had been close then IM would have been the higher rated player in the playoffs. The final is what earned Zywoo the MVP, and the reason it was close until then is because IM had a chance if he played the final to still get the MVP, even if they lost if he played well enough.
@@Lekeing Bro is using IFS. Good thing that the finals is over. Where we know ZywOo was the highest rated player. An MVP is given after the events end. You can't judge it mid way or before it ends to deem it was close or not. After the finals it was clear cut not close.
1:14:00 ZyWoo BLAST GOAT
ZywOo first or second MVP of his career was cologne MVP
@@skryyper6706 they always ignore that lol. He has the most MVP's when not winning an event
Karrigan probably prepared for TS and Vitality... tragic but not as tragic as boston major for me
Boston Major gives me nightmares to this day.
Karrigan beats TS and Vitality showing who deserves to be #1 in thw world
Why would a match you never competed in, for a trophy you have never competed for, probably in a city you never have even been to give you nightmares?
The only thing that makes sense is that you might have a gambling addiction you need to deal with. In that case, you have nightmares because of your poor life choices... not because of a a game.
@@Maybeabandaid9 I bet on 2 cs matches my whole life.
I'm just overly invested in Faze for some reason 😂
A big thing that happens when discussing success, is that you have two very different ways of looking at it. As maui quite clearly says, its quite moronic to say that only trophies matter, thus we should analize a players skills over their achievements. But the thing that trophies do is give stock to that argument.
A non csgo example would be fnatic in valorant, and how people started appreciating boaster when they won rio. People did treat him as a good igl before that, but what that win did was giving a moment you could point at to explain your reasoning. The opposite would happen with someone like m0nesy or donk. As a community we say that they are good players, but to begin placing them in the conversation for all time greats they have to win more things, especially since they are so young. (btw only morons would say that donk is a GOAT outright, we still havent seen enough).
Inferno isn't solved, CTs are not favored, and NAVI rarely does gamble stacks.
CSGO Inferno was solved, but CS2 Inferno is a different map, hence actually why we don't like it. It feels like a weird mirror version of Inferno. CTs are more comfortable, but Ts have plenty of options. The prevailing way to play Banana is taking the initial control off smokes and molotovs then lurking one player. This is what Vitality did with Magisk. You can also just full force utility up to Car. Also, A Site is absolutely open for T-side and Hugo even mentions VP who love going A Site late after developing Brackets control. Ts have higher conversion rates as well because CT A Site defense is so crippled in a 4v5 scenario. Ts also have more opening opportunities since they're favored to get the Banana opening and the Apps opening while CTs only realistically have the Mid pick which is a tough shot still that's easily punished.
As for NAVI, I know there's been a lot of discussion around their T-sides and sahing their CT-sides are shaky on some maps, but people need to remember that it was originally the opposite; Aleksib used to be the CT-sided IGL who couldn't develop as effectively on T-sides. On T-side, he was VP-lite who some wanted to be more aggressive like HooXi. Then on CT-sides, he read T-sides like a book. It was to the point that he had a higher CT-side winrate than T-side winrate on Inferno depsite it being the most T-sided at the time before Anubis got released. Aleksib doesn’t make the karrigan gamble play. He makes the late read, that Round 15+ read after he's figured out the enemy team.
You know when you do good and have succes when losers who never achive anithing when they was pro players trash talk you. iM 2 MAJOR finals 1 major winner MAUISNAKE 0 tier 3 NA player who never achive anything in his life, also not a signle org not want to work with him.
spunj may have been wrong about aleksib's fake but idk about maui's take
If Inferno is "solved". How come NaVi won Faze 13-3? Should the "solved" map be more like coinflip then - maybe 13-11 result?
My comment got deleted for linking hltv, but jl, wonderful and b1t went 54-14 combined kills to death on Inferno. Individual skill adds variance to the game no matter how stale a map is.
@@peepopoo4387 so you are saying that ropz, frozen and broky are just so much more weaker players than jl, b1t and wonderful? :D
@@akitervo80 In that game they clearly were.
@@peepopoo4387 I disagree. FaZe is mechanically even better than NaVi - Karrigan had a bad map for sure, but he never had a chance, because he was outplayed. I think that that day Aleksib had better read of the game than Karrigan and with Blade-system NaVi outperformed FaZe - Map is not solved, but it's rather the ultimate playground of IGL's. It's super interesting to watch.
Thoring spitting facts again
I think the entire cs community would just love to see iM benched and S1mple brought back! That is a fact, and only then could they win a major the proper way with 1.9 stats across the board not dropping a map on their run!
S1mple is the GOAT and still beloved by the community, but he's tarnished his reputation the last few years with his treatment of teammates like SDY. Navi immediately looking like a more cohesive team as soon as he's out of the lineup isn't the best look either and makes it look like his toxicity was actually holding back players like jL.
Nah, just make im support/anchor instead of star rifler and they gucci frfr
when both maui and thorin cringed at the fact c9 was the best team zywoo has beaten in major playoffs lol
Well ZywOo hasnt even play half the number of majors s1mple has played in his career so way less opportunities
@@skryyper6706 even when s1mple was 18 he beat fnatic, navi etc in major playoffs on a shit liquid team where elige wasnt himself yet and they had adren
shut the fuck up and do ur research, if ur gonna compare zywoo as the goat he i sgoing to have goat standards and the standard is s1mple, he from day 1 was carrying his team past top 5 teams at major playoffs, zywoo hasnt
Hugo have such a nice voice for casting😅
Have like half of the teams should be invited to majors wich should be like top10-12 and the rest in a rmr.
Agree with thorin about inferno
damn thorin going off 💀💀my goat 🐐
It is a fluke, jL turned on wall hacks + aimbot
After Navi lost against c9
His rating is not normal during the playoffs
And out of nowhere b1t went and became the 2nd coming of the edshot machine
Mf was getting multi-kill headshots whenever navi were about to lose.
The only caviat of this narrative is how much aleksib contributed to their sucess
Cuz there were many sequences where aleksib called and made plays for jL and b1t which allowed them to shine.
People should not forget how faze crumbled in inferno, aleksi's plays + b1t's aim + jL's confidence = destruction
I have ear cancer now Hugo. Thanks alot.
Has karrigan as an IGL lose thr most major finals in CS?. Isn't it like 3-1 now?
Zeus I think?
Also Xizt
ThoRIN wildin
Fistfight in a bar 😭
banger banger espisoode
1:22:18 BING CHILLING HAHAHA
It always sends me when thorin pulls out the bing chilling. It's like a pleasant surprise every time I hear it
Wake up Thorin, LeBron James has some of the best playoffs clutch stats in NBA History. You should know better as someone who likes to doesn't fall for generic media slander.
Thank you hugo, inferno is fucking horrible and always has been.
A team that has second highest match win percentage in the world wins the Major? Seems normal. I don't know why people think it's a fluke.
Because you so dumb thats why. Its a fluke you dumb ass if they got lucky they got owned by spirit all the match.
Navi’s major run was not a fluke. They were consistently mixing it up with the best teams in the world, going deep into playoffs. It’s not like they were doing nothing before the major. I think a lot of peoples perspectives were colored by how Navi played at the major, where they looked the weakest they have in a while. It’s a testament to blade and aleksis abilities that the team functioned so well despite im, bit, and aleksis individual form was so bad. As far as the bracket goes, Navi could have beat every one of those teams. I would actually say Navi is more likely to win than loose against mouz, we saw how they collapsed against g2, obv they beat eternal fire and g2. They match up well against spirit, and with the sudden increase in pressure on spirit + zontix not playing well they would have a very good shot against spirit especially with aleksi and blade counterstratting. Vitality and cloud9 are scarier, cloud9 had just beaten Navi in swiss and vitality was scary even without zywoo playing well. Navi still has a decent chance against both though. Lastly, they beat faze in a grand final, it’s just hard to top that. Frankly I think that’s good evidence that they have a solid shot against any team in the top 8.
Would they win the plurality of 20 randomized brackets? Maybe not. But they would probably end up higher than mouz, ef, g2, maybe even cloud9 and spirit.
Just think that Navi aren’t getting enough credit, especially blade and aleksi, for a pretty legit run through the playoffs, actually more difficult than a lot of other major winning teams have faced in the past.
sure ZywOo is not the GOAT yet, but using 2019 Berlin Major is such a joke, NAVI 0:2 NRG s1mple 1.07 ; FaZe 1:2 Renegades NiKo 1.00 and somehow Vitality vs avangar ZywOo's 1.19 and second most kill in the game and he is to blame on that game?
w0nderful has an insanely high skill ceiling that is not being shown by his safe style used in the system. His mechanics alone if utilised properly will easily propel him to superstar level.
This guy is the next big thing, if things go well he will be competing with m0nesy. Time will tell, but he has the potential. This isn’t another “Sunpayus”.
there is not really an system for w0ndeful? Even blade said that aleksib lets wonderful make his own plays and also aleksi has to tell wonderful to be more proactive around the map. if im not wrong wonderfuls playstyle has always been little bit more passive. His still new on navi and he will definetly be the next big thing.
:)))) It's a "fluke" that they played with B1ad3 in Malta leaving the question "what do we do now without the star player? can a yet unconfirmed igl or tier 2 players who were coming after a good major become a certainty? can we rely on them?" Time passed, work was done, Wonderful came and I forget they won the major because of teamwork. Shame on you as an analyst if you think it was a fluke
Thorin = 🧠💢
Every major win is a fluke. Lmao.
If only Thorin can speak l3ss and allow others to talk. For FS .
you get used to it eventually ...
That’s like saying you prefer salad with no dressing or toppings
Train idk but cache, please do
I was already like Hugo in the final, but then i heard this "jL won the game on that round4"- shit, like no decent team in a map has those rounds and still rocks the server but g2 didn't. So piss off.
Which teams, according to the redhead, won the major not by chance? Such inspiration that for him the victories of Astralis, Brazilians and Navi in 2021 were an accident.
Is he Voldemort?
time for your meds
@@levindy6 with this meds i will f4ck your mom all day
The death of the RMR is music to my ears, that tournament is utter shit and the fact it is actually more important than the actual major shows it needs to go, I couldn't care less if Asia or NA has less slots and that CS is a eurocentric game.
tthey should literally just copy the ATP structure from Tennis or take inspriation from it: ATP 250, ATP 500, ATP 1000, Grand Slam
and then your placing on the world ranking is based on your average placing in these tournaments, exactly like Tennis, it's not that hard Valve.
Regarding Vertigo and Inferno, why does it have to be either or? they can both be replaced, I would absolutely welcome two new maps give me Tuscan or Santorini and bring back Train.
1:28:10 🤣
37:15 When I hear this from a guy claiming to be the historian LMAO
G2 with AleksiB was a continuous downward spiral :
Finals in Katowice22 is the best result and it was the first event and it was down hill from that , not qualifying to the rio major , going out in the groups of EPL 15 , Cologne , not winning any event , even once like Blast spring or IEM dallas were we had problem teams be the winners like C9 and Navi with sdy and the Ukr,RU situation .
Hooxi also failed to qualify for a major and has led G2 out of tournaments with his calling.
Calling it early NAVI won’t win another event this year.
This aged well lol
jL isnt a superstar he is a LEGEND!