IS SEBASTIEN LOEB THE GREATEST DRIVER EVER? Opinions on Sebastien Loeb's Status as a Racing Legend
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2022
- When we talk about the greatest driver of all time, it's always the same suspects: Schumacher, Senna, Clark etc. Because they are F1 drivers and F1 is the peak of racing.
But Sebastien Loeb always seems to be ignored. The 9-time WRC champion recently won the Monte Carlo Rally and many have said the same thing: He is not human and is one of the greatest of all time.
But is he a contender for THE greatest? Let's have a look.
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“You forgot [insert driver]!!!!”
If I stopped to name every single one, I’d be here all day. Just because they’re not said doesn’t mean I forgot, or ignored. 😉
On one hand yes, on the other Hand snubbing Walter Roehrl is a serious crime in this context.
I think that an soft mention for Takahashi Kunimitsu would be in order. The original Drift King was one of the very first Honda Motorcycle riders at the 1961 Isle of man TT and has driven in alot of different disciplines like F2,F3000,Endurance racing,F1(as an one off entry),GT championships and now owns an Super GT team barring his name. The guy is an incredible driver IMO and an legend
@@j0ckel617 I didn’t snub him 🤦🏻♂️
You forgot Mark Blundell.
@@j0ckel617 I think not having the decency to spell Walter Röhrl's name correctly is actually more of a serious crime than not mentioning him at all.
I don't think there is even a debate to be made here. Loeb is the greatest imo. One of the best drivers of his generation, in any discipline.
To be fair, Ogier comes pretty close. Ogier managed to win the driver's title on 3 different manufacturer. Almost 4 if Shitröen didn't screw up that car so badly. That's a massive feat for itself.
@@polaxis842 for sure, Ogier is right up there with the Loeb.
@@polaxis842 When Loeb left WRC, somebody had to won, that doesn't mean you are good, to be good you gotta beat someone else who already is considered good, he also had a dominant car
Is like Hamilton, who did Hamilton beat?
When he had an inferior car to the RedBull era, he was "meh"
Meanwhile Alonso who had an inferior car to RedBull *& McLaren* manage to put himself second in the championship twice
So winning a race isn't exactly to be good, you can have a good car, or good luck
To be a real champion, you gotta beat another good driver
@@mewtwo.150 yeah and after some time off he still came and won monaco whata a legend
@@kubhak Exactly, that's why he really is a champion, he beat WRC with different cars, he broke a Pike Peaks record, raced in Rally Cross who out on shame the other racers, also have raced in Turismo cars, that's a real champion, someone who wins in every sport they touch
As Alonso too, he won multiple times at F1 with inferior cars, won Endurance races, raced in Dakar, was first in IndyCar (of course the car broke) but he showed his brilliance
Now people as Hamilton or Schumacher, when asked if they are going to race in other sports, they cowardly say no. Hamilton directly insulted IndyCar, and Schumacher said was afraid of IndyCar
Why they refused? Because they know that without their dominant cars, they are not what they claim to be
9:07 Ogier is retired full time now, he's doing a part time schedule this year. We are having a new champion in 2022 that isn't a Sebastien.
I only believe this, if one of the Sebs doesn't smell blood and decides to race the whole season after all in the end.
@@polaxis842 Lappi is doing the next round instead of Ogier. Ogier is only doing up to 5 rallies.
There's plenty of time for the others to fuck it up and end up with a part timer as the World Champion.
@@Rosario_Verano That seems very unlikely. Competition has been tight the last few years.
@@LevisL95 Never count out the French Sebastian
The bloke won in 2018, in a C3 that hadn’t won a rally that season, in only his third rally in that generation of car against a field of full time drivers how’d spent two years with those regulations. His feel for a rally car, on any surface is unmatched, I’d say even by Ogier. He tortured me growing up as a Markko Martin, Marcus Gronholm and Ford fan, but I just can’t help but appreciate his talent and how special he is to watch. For me, he is the greatest of all-time!
And then jumps back in 3 years later to win again first try
Here in France Seb Loeb is a legend but I think you're right pointing he is underrated in the rest of the world. Another driver who should be included in the list is the Belgian legend Jacky Ickx. 6 time winner of Le Mans and absolute master of the track, F2 champion and then winner of multiple F1 GPs, close to be champion (driving in endurance at the same time), winner of the Can-Am championship, of the Bathurst 1000, of the Dakar rally, and of dozens of big races. And he was maybe the best ever on wet conditions, maybe only Senna mastered the rain as well as Jacky did. But he could master terrible weather conditions, by night, in a 3h stint at Le Mans...
I would say Montoya has proved himself in more disciplines than what Loeb has. Montoya is in my view the closest we have of a modern Mario Andretti/Graham Hill or Jacky Ickx/Dan Gurney.
I stll can’t get over Ickx taking that racing line through Eau Rogue as if Bellof isnt there.
Yea no..... Pedro Rodriguez was the rain master especially of the sports endurance drivers...... When Pedro was in the Gulf team he was John Wyers favorite driver........ There's a video of the whole 1970 Gulf season on RUclips.
@@patrickanderson9023 Montoya wasn't as successful in NASCAR as the other guys who "multitasked". He's still up there in my consideration, though.
@@drazenbudis7881 Bellof wasn't even alongside Ickx at Eau Rouge, he had no knowledge of him being there. And no one tried an overtake at Eau Rouge in sports cars in those days.
I've always had the opinion that rallying is the hardest motorsport in the world.
You are going down unknown dirt roads about as wide as your car at up to 120mph while listening to a guy giving you directions, there's almost no room for error because there's no run offs and finally the cars have to be able to handle different surfaces on the stages, so you might be on dirt for the first 3rd of the stage and then switch to tarmac for the rest.
The speed of the car isn't everything you need to keep in mind the vehicles being driven and the tracks/roads they're on.
(The closest thing to a rally stage f1 has is qualifying at Monaco and I don't put that in he same category because the f1 drivers know the track they're driving while rally drivers need to listen for pace notes and react)
Couldn't agree more!
But somehow the most recent death of WRC(and its supporting series) was about 18 years ago while F1 was as recent as 3 years ago. Surprising fact!
@@redbuIlracing the crashes in wrc are insane looking and I've seen crashes where the car get torn to pieces. I know they have a roll cage etc in them but they're are built so the driver can survive practically anything, its remarkable.
@@redbuIlracing crashes at circuits tend to end quite quickly, you go off track and immediately hit the barrier without slowing down much, thus the energy of the crash gets violently disipated in one go. Rally crashes are normally more drawn out, rolling the car a bunch of times or mowing down some shrubs, bouncing off a tree etc. Bleeds off a lot of the energy before the abrupt stop that does the big damage.
Not to mention, crash energy squares with velocity, and rally cars are going a lot slower than F1 so there's also vastly less energy to disipate to start with.
If Dirt Rally 2.0 is a valid frame of reference, then yes. I’m inclined to agree. Rallying is tough, and I love it so much. I wish I could watch it easier here in the States.
Given the wide variety of things he's done, yes. That little Le Mans fun fact is nuts. But on the same note of "If you're not in F1, you're not good" the reverse seems to apply. As in, there being instances of drivers who only had a year or two in F1, weren't awful but also Not Good Enough, simply couldn't get a seat, go do something else and go from not being able to drive the rubber left on the track to most of the grid lining up for your contract. F1 sure is a bubble...
100% agree. F1 drivers have a very specific skill set, and although it can certainly be applied in other disciplines, being dominant in F1 only gives you a better chance at excelling in other disciplines and doesn't guarantee it. Look at Alonso at the Indy 500, and the various F1 drivers that go into endurance racing. I love the role that Fisichella has taken, as the pro driver guiding the less experienced drivers he shares the car with. Awesome to see knowledge being shared like that.
Also Buemi and Kobayashi going on to find success in WEC was nice to see, and I'm sure current academy driver's like Illott and Aitken will find good homes in endurance racing if they don't get into F1.
Kovalainen comes to mind.
@@shig.bitz.3205 Motorsports in general are all very different from one another. Running a high downforce car where the back stepping out is almost automatic for a crash is not going to be particularly useful when racing lower downforce cars which have to be run with a lot of oversteer. Vice versa is true as well - Indycar used to mine dirt track racing in America for talent, and eventually that pipeline went away as low downforce, throttle control driving styles simply weren't pertinent to mid engined high downforce formula vehicles any more.
During the Red Bull test you mentioned, he was actually faster than Sebastien Vettel in the same car
What?! I wasn't following F1 in that era, that is astonishing!
To be fair Vettel is seriously overated.
@@cosmo10973ify 🍿
@@cosmo10973ify It's a controversial take, but he was indeed shown up by Riccardo and Leclerc. Only looked good against Webber and Kimi, with the latter being well past his prime after getting trounced by Alonso.
This is pretty misleading, he was not running the same package as any of the other drivers, as it was a thank you gesture from Red Bull for his 5th consecutive WRC win. RedBull themselves said that with all things calculated, he was probably running around Midfield pace, which is still impressive, but I doubt he was faster than Vettel if setups and fuel were actually equal.
To be considered a GOAt, for me the driver has to be multidriver, run in more than 2 competitions, and have a great amount of titles and wins, so, yes, Sebastien Loeb is a GOAT.
A GOAT, or the GOAT?
@@axelode45 the goat or a goat, Mario Andretti runs in a lot of motorsport events, F1, Indy, Nascar, Endurance, Touring, so, he's a winner in a lot of competitions, just like Loeb and Clark, but for some, just one can be THE GOAT.
@@TheJosu145 Loeb has a better track record in Endurance (particularly Rally Raid, the hardest of the hard) and Touring Car racing.
@@DR3ADER1 And Ickx's got an even better record, so Ickx : true GOAT.
Petter Solberg is a two discipline world champion, WRC and World Rallycross, so
I think one name people miss off on the greatest driver lists is John Surtees. He won 4 500cc motorcycle world championships. 1 F1 world championship,l. Although it was nearly 2 if he hadn't have fallen out with Ferrari. 1 Can Am championship. He is the only man to beat Jim Clark in F1. Jim either won or broke down. So Jim only finished 2nd once at Hockenheim in the rain.
Agree, also VERY overlooked.
I think the thing is that the motorcycling championships count more towards his achievements as a rider rather than a driver. The two activities require massively different skill sets.
I’m not discounting his talent as a driver or a rider, it’s amazing that he was so good at doing both, but lumping the two together is silly.
@@Anon24052 In that case it must make him the greatest all round driver, of all time. Another fact, in his first race in a car, while still motorcycle world champion. He came second, to Jim Clark. Colin Chapman was at the race & wanted to sign him up to race for Lotus. But he refused. Because he knew he would always be playing second fiddle to Jim Clark. Bear in mind he had had no time to practice driving on a track. He was doing this on one of the rare weekends he wasn't racing bikes. In interviews. He said if he had a few more laps he would have beaten Clark.
pilot
Loeb is simply a different breed, I don't think anyone can argue that, especially when you realize just how difficult rally really is as a motorsport.
I throw in Röhrl in a kinda "What if..." scenario. If he gave a wet fuck about it, Röhrl could've dominated everything he partcipated in
Damn wanted to write the same^^Walter was just a beast...but with his Mentality of...if I win too much it will be a hasle...well...
Rick Mears with the Sanair crash is another what if just replace "if he gave a fuck" with "if his legs weren't severely damaged at Sanair". Mears even had Formula One tests outpacing Nelson Piquet. As in going from Senna and Prost type pace to being outran on road courses by Teo Fabi and Eddie Cheever.
@@Eibarwoman Understandable...Röhrl was mainly to tall for f1^^but did great in trans am,imsa and group b...as long as it was high powered he seemed rather happy :D
Rohrl actually drove an F1 car back in the late 1970s I think as part of a special comparison with Fittipaldi but he was too big to fit in it.
@@ichwersunst there's a article in German that talked about this time where Rohl was testing the new Carrera GT on the nurburing. During his test drive he came upon another Carrera GT that was testing..... Well I guess the car in front wouldn't let him pass and they Duked it out for some time..... Rohrl eventually passed him and when they went to the Pitts it was Michael Schumacher. I guess he was pissed, yelling, slander ,etc. Rohrl was laughing, and I guess he accused Walter of trying to do some media prank hit piece on him....... I think this sums up the brilliance of Rohrl as a driver.
Seeing Loeb do the Dakar this year basically reaffirms my childhood sentiment that racing drivers were mad bastards and I mean that in a good way. To risk life and limb in a crazy pursuit of victory is what got me to liking motorsport as a kid. He might have ruined rally but that's not his problem or ours - it just is what it is.
Thats the difference with Shumacher, Shumacher damaged the sport with his dominance but he still was contested (Hakkinen,Alonso, Villeneuve even Montoya) Loeb killed it, he genuinely caused massive financial loss to wrc compared to what it was before him as thre was nobody coming close to him for almost a decade despite the championship having great drivers.
Loeb is very friendly to rally spectators no matter if you wear a Subaru or Ford cap. I met this legend a number of times and allways makes time for a autograph or high five.
One year in the rally Germany every car that went to pre rally inspection got driven by the teams mechanics, except one. Loeb and Elena did it theirselfs.
I'd say Alonso is in contention aswell. He's won LeMans, WEC, won 2 F1 WDC's, he was in a lead at 2017 Indy 500 and did pretty good in his rookie Dakar race.
not to mention he might achieve the triple crown in his lifetime.
@@sanghelian Which would allow him to surpass the non-F1 claimants who have other particular honors with the Indy 500.
My opinion too.
@@sanghelian Montoya has a very good chance of beating him to it if he cares enough. Already has Monaco and Indy 500.
hasnt alonso run daytona aswell?
He is just godly behind the wheel of a car, he's up there with the likes Mr Le Mans, Hamilton, and even Mark Skaife, they all dominated their respective disciplines. And some even other racing series, like Loeb
I would not put Hamilton up there with Kristensen and Leob.
@@TheNecromancer6666 would be at least on the level of Michael Schumacher, Valentino Rossi or even Juan Manuel Fangio and Richard Petty yeah?
@@scuckplexity for formula 1 Hamilton is one of the greatest. In terms of just racing in general Hamilton has only participated in formula series so I wouldn’t even put him in the discussion of best overall driver. Same with Schumacher. This is why I think Alonso is a better driver than Hamilton overall.
@@weignerleigner3037 well Michael Schumacher did participate on Le Mans before he joins formula 1 if I'm not mistaken. And tbh, i would love to see more f1 drivers tried to tackle on other sports.
@@scuckplexity yeah he did sports cars I believe with Mercedes before he came into formula 1. I would like to see that too. I wonder if after he is done in f1 Hamilton will try and do something else.
I always pictured him being so chill while he's driving sideways on dirt brushing the trees at 160kph that he's sipping a macchiato like Jean Jerard
The first time I saw Loeb he was a WRC rookie, and a tarmac specialist. He was not in the competition on gravel, dirt, or ice.
He adapted. I can't think of another driver who improved as quickly and became so dominant.
That run in the Peugeot at Pikes peak is absolutely legendary!
Honestly, I think being so good that you effectively kill the sport only adds to the legacy of Loeb, especially given how awesome the pre-Loeb era of the WRC was.
Some of the best rally drivers in full works outfits being made to look completely average.
The thing with Loeb, it's not like Jim Clark because you can't really just turn up and win in many other disciplines, as the professionalism and standards are so high - but it's the fact Loeb can jump in and immediately be up there fighting with the best in that discipline that will always be impressive.
If it wasn't for politics, Loeb was actually going to take part in the 2009 Abu Dhabi GP, but I believe he was denied a super license in what has to be one of the worst decisions the FIA has ever made.
I'm slightly gutted he single handedly killed interest in my first love of motorsport, but it's hardly Loeb's fault he's that good.
We are gonna miss him a lot when he calls time on his career permanently, even if at this rate it feels like he'll be doing this in his 60's
The fact he didn't get that superlicence still amazes me, it was before superlicense points era, he'd been world champion for 5 years on the run in his sport and he'd already shown he could do a good job on road courses at Le Mans. Why F1 gave up on a PR opportunity like that is baffling. It would have been so great to have him in F1 for a year or two.
The whole superlicense thing is a way of keeping control of the drivers in the hands of the F1 governing body. If they force potential F1 drivers to come through their own development system in order to qualify for F1, they control the life and career and finances of young drivers from about the time they're 10 years old. Here in the US we make a joke about drivers like Alonso having to qualify in a "rookie test" in order to drive at the Indy 500 even after he has won F1 championships, but everyone knows that's just a formality, and they like to use the rookie test as a way of getting publicity for the race. Then they can run headlines "Alonso Is Here!" 'Alonso Passes Rookie Orientation!!" "Alosno Passes Rookie Test!!!" They get three days of headlines out of that, as silly as the whole process is. But in F1 they'll deny a license to Sebastian Loeb while passing in any schmuck who has had enough money to buy his way through the approved feeder series. And this is supposed to be the greatest racing series in the world.
@@RRaquello Yep.
@@RRaquello This. Remember Formula Renault 3.5, a series that was about equal to what was GP2 at the time? It happened to disappear about a couple years after the points system was introduced and they were shafted in it. It's ridiculous. F1 is nothing but a francise like NFL or NBA these days. The teams have become said francises through the 200Mil buy-in for new teams and the only talents that have a chance at getting a drive have to come through their own youth ladder, that they can then also market themselves. They're actively sabotaging the driving talent of their own series by not allowing IndyCar or WEC drivers for example to join in, purely for financial gain. As Fernando Alonso would say, it's a yoke.
@@michiadams What's interesting is that both F1 and NASCAR have adopted this model. In NASCAR they call it the Charter system. If you buy a "charter" you have a guaranteed entry in every race. You don't even have to qualify any more. Qualifying is just to set starting positions. It is a virtual franchise.
The ironic thing about this is it all originates with Tony George and the IRL. He instituted the 25/8 rule, where the 25 top points cars in the IRL were guaranteed starting positions in the Indy500, leaving only 8 spots for outside qualifiers. George was cursed to high heavens for this rule, called an idiot, and became the most hated man in all of racing. Now 20-25 years later, the two biggest money making racing series in the world have taken his idea and run with it. And, if anything, George's institution of a "franchise" system was more liberal than either F1 or NASCAR, because he allowed 8 positions for at-large or "outside" teams. NASCAR allows only 4, and F1 doesn't allow any.
He's absolutely one of the greatest of all time. Watching Loeb vs Solberg vs Gronholm in 2003-7 was amazing, the 3 of them were brilliant and absolutely went for it, the WRC only got stale after Gronholm and Solberg retired and were left with Miko Hirvonen as the only challenge to Loeb, the results tell you how much of a challange that was. It's a similar story for Ogier as he dominated with VW who spent as much money as the other manufacturers combined.
As a Solberg fan, I loved him beating Loeb in rallycross
I'm no motor head but that pikes peak run in the Peugeot 208 gives me chills every time I see it. I would go far as to say it's one of the greatest sporting moments..
Ogier should be up for consideration as well. He's won world titles for 3 manufacturers(Toyota,Ford,VW), I believe helping launch the car the car for 2 of them as well. He's won rallies for 4 throwing Citroën in there.
I too was one that stopped following the WRC and I distinctively remember when. Halfway through the 2008 season when Loeb won Rally Finland. Even then I believe Ford had the better gravel car. They had two of the best Finns in the sport, Latvala and Hirvonen. The rally is famous for being dominated by the Scandinavian drivers. Yet Loeb won it and beat them both that year.
French rally drivers in the WRC were always superb on the asphalt rallies. But it was Loeb that managed to consistently improve on gravel. And he did it with this super smooth and calm driving style, almost as if on asphalt. The Citroen was built very specifically to this style of his - very forward biased almost tarmac build. And he drove it to perfection. Just sideways enough to overcome the lack of grip but always keeping forward momentum. If you look at telemetry from him back in the day you will be amazed. Every braking zone he would just be inch perfect. He had these really intricate pacenotes too where if I recall the corners were read out in degrees of angle and many commentators then would say that had been a much more objective system and especially important for differing weather and road conditions.
There's one onboard of him that I still remember. WRC Rally Ireland 2007 SS5 Geevagh. Halfway through stages he gets out on an open part where its 150kph+ and there's dense fog about 3-4 car lengths ahead. He never lets off and even corrects his pacenotes whilst going full pelt in the fog.
Remarkable driver.
For me rally drivers are the best in the world and for me Loeb is the best driver to have ever lived. While he did play apart in the WRC downfall in the mid 2000s a lot of OEMs also pulled out too and that really didn't help anyone.
People forget that Fangio won twice the Argentina Turismo Carretera championship(including some 4000km races in open roads), the Carrera Panamericana in México, 12 hrs of Sebring, podiums in the Mile Miglia and Targa Florio, etc. Not only an F1 man.
Loeb made WRC comeback at 47 in Monte Carlo 2022. He went straight on the pace on Monte Carlo first stage outing to secondly from his nemesis, other GOAT candidate and his compatriot Ogier. Nothing holding back his glory days speed at this age because his speed at glory days was genuine. The pace of old Loeb - Citroen combined isn’t massively came from the car only, but Loeb pace was there in genuine. One thing even more impressive is Loeb was always be Citroen man. He drove a Hyundai in 2020. New team and straight on the pace. 2 years later having grab recently runner up spot in Dakar, He then drove a M-Sport in 2022. Once again new car, new team, and OC new rule to adapt first before finding pace. He still went straight on the pace to his nemesis Ogier the reigning world champion. GOAT drivers can adapt to any car in short time. It seems age is just a number in 4 wheels Motorsport racing. Being 47 wouldn’t make you lost your genuine speed from your old-time glory days, unless the pace from your car had massively advantage to others in the past.
Also you have to consider that rally drivers compete in 3 types of surfaces instead of 1 like F1. And it's not a lot of them that are good in all 3. That's why guys like Loeb, Sainz, Makinen are up there.
Great video as always, and as a Dane it's interesting to see you rate Kristensen so highly; I feel like he's often overlooked because the Audis were so dominant.
A video like this on him would be awesome!
Even with the fastest car at Le Mans you still have to finish.
Good stuff dude, it had to be said, I can remember seeing Loeb driving in his first years in WRC at the pub, turned to a mate and said this guy is going to be good. The speed He used to carry through the high speed corners was mind blowing and it was just so consistently smooth.
Hello Aidan: Thank you for this. For years, I have had huge respect for rallying. They have to drive all surfaces, in all weathers, in huge temperature ranges, both day and night. That is amazing. Stay safe and well.
Sebastian was for me the greatest ever dtiver from all of motorsport. He was genial in all weather and road conditions in the WRC for 9 years running thats just insanity. Add his Pikes Peake run as well which was astonishing.
Before Loeb there was Walter Rohrl who was so good, that he won Monte in 4 different cars, won Pikes Peak. Was last WRC winner who won championship in begining of 4WD era with RWD car. Competed in IMSA and DTM and is responsible of how all great Porsche cars of last 30 or so years drive.
It is impossible to discuss the greatest drivers of all time without including rally drivers.
As much as I love formula one I can't claim many, if any f1 drivers could match loeb as a driver
Ickx ? Won the Dakar (with an actor as navigator lel), 6x Le Mans, many F1 and F2 races, Can-Am title, Bathurst 1000 champion, yadda yadda.
No it's not. I do it all the time.
@@DomHowardsFluoPants Ickx should be in consideration, but what actor was his navigator? If it was like James Dean or Steve McQueen the don't count as just actors, the really raced cars and bikes.
@@99EKjohn Claude Brasseur - he's massive here. Household name, even.
@@DomHowardsFluoPants Yea not someone I've heard of, so probably not a semi-pro driver. Thanks for replying.
I have always held the rallying greats as the best drivers in the world. Loeb was so surgical in his era to the point that I considered him the greatest driver of all time when he was still on his way up. It's amazing that he was able to win last weekend.
I do think that the Jack-of-all-trades drivers do deserve special consideration in any GOAT driver conversation. Especially in eras where drivers didn't live to be 40 very often. If Loeb did anything in his dominant years, he drove so well for Citroen that almost all of the major manufacturers dropped out of the sport as factory teams. Mitsubishi stopped making the Evo altogether, Ford and Subaru stopped having official rally teams along the way. And in their absence, eventually Loeb's absence, Ogier was there with what remained and has been equally dominant, in whatever was available. Hell even Citroen is gone now.
I think the reason the WRC has failed to showcase its drivers as the best in the world is the unconventional manner in which the stages are run. It's rough for television to mostly have in car cameras, and most of the show not actually being a live broadcast. But the skill of a sport's competitors should not be dictated by its media presence.
Watching loeb drive in the world rallycross championship you see just how good he is at on track battle especially against the likes of john kristofferson and peter Solberg, the hansen brothers, erikson and so on all formidable drivers
the best thing now a days to compare all type of drivers is the race of champions, but many people don't know about this "special" event , but is a event with a lot of history ( is a cool idea for a video)
Your on track with your list, + inclusions at end. Spot on.
Fantastic video. Worth pointing out that Ogier is only part time this year so will not be able to equal the 9 championships. Again, great video.
It said rounds 1-2 on wiki but thought that was just an incomplete season bit. My excuse is 17 years of not watching rally 🤣
I have to mention Tazio Nuvolari, as he was also a rather successful motorcycle racer. And obviously, John Surtees: F1 champion AND 7 times motorcycle grand prix world champion (if you only count 500cc (which, I think, is the wrong thing to do), there are still 4 titles). I also have to include Jimmie Johnson: he started with winning motocross races, he then jumped into trucks winning championships, then he went to NASCAR and won 83 races (more than Dale Earnhardt) and 7 championships in the Cup Series; if he somehow manages to win an Indycar race on a road course, or the Indy 500, then he HAS to be mentioned. Dude's in his late 40s and never raced an open wheel single seater before 2021.
And how I could forget Stephan Peterhansel, AKA Mister Dakar?
That Jimmie Johnson shout is an underrated but very good nod. As an American who grew up watching nascar as a kid and seeing the dominance of Jimmie and my lil brother having Jimmie as his favorite driver. It’s disappointing to not see him ranked higher especially considering his versatility as mentioned (me personally i was a Jeff Gordon fan). It’s also funny but most ppl in nascar don’t put jimmy towards the top of the goat convo in nascar.
If you ask me, Foyt, Mario Andretti, and Clark stand as a kind of motorsport holy trinity on top.
Clark yes, but Mark Donahue was the better American driver then Foyt. And at their prime and same era, Pedro Rodriguez was the better sports endurance racer then Mario........
If you're throwing Americans in there, you must include Dan Gurney and Parnelli Jones
For my money he's at the absolute pinnacle of ability for car control. It's not just how many titles he won but how easy he made it look on the way, and wasn't like he didn't have some decent competition along the way. I remember seeing him have an accident in Australia one year and being absolutely amazed because I couldn't remember him crashing in something like the previous 4 years. He even won as a 'privateer' one year when Citroen decided there was no need to update their car.
Couldve used richard burns rally sim for the showcase btw
But great video 👍❤️
Considering the man came out of retirement to drive an all new rally car, went toe to toe with the current world champion who is also his protégé and win the Monte Carlo rally at the age of 47. Yes.
His other multi disciplinary racing and 3 RoC titles (beating Schumacher and Vettel in identical machinery) just go to show it as well.
I appreciated the Hockey references/comparisons!
Here's my postcard Aidan : Loeb is certainly up there with his variety of classes/formulae where he won but so is Jim Clark who won in sports cars and the British Saloon Car championship as well as F1 and 2. One name that hasn't been mentioned is that of Sir Stirling Moss who would have been World Champion, twice, missing out by 1 point each time. He would race everything and anything and hauled some very dubious machinery into the winner's circle because of his prodicious talent.
Haven't even got past the intro music, but yes, very much yes.
About the only guy who I've ever known personally was involved in racing professionally at a high level wasn't a driver, but was a manager for the racing division of one of the big tire companies. So he was involved in all kinds of racing series, from NASCAR to Sprint Cars to CART/Indy Racing and even in his younger days had done time in Europe and Formula One. I asked him who he thought were the best drivers and he didn't even hesitate. He said "World Rally". So even though I don't really follow rally much (not easy to follow in the US), I've always taken his word for it. If Loeb is the greatest rally driver, that might make him THE greatest driver. And I found this very easy to accept after his performances at Pike's Peak.
i just realized i want to see you in a podcast i think that would be really interesting and fun maybe with aldas he's another motorsport knowledge freak
I'm probably a bit biased on this one, but I think that Fangio's career outside F1 is criminally underrated, specially the years before moving to Europe. I mean, just hearing about the absolute madness of racing on dirt roads from Buenos Aires to Caracas is almost impossible to comprehend, still is barely mentioned.
Great video Ade. Sebastian's spatial awareness is beyond comparison. But I don't know how that would translate into a modern F1 car.
I would certainly rank him as one of the greatest drivers of all time.
I never got bored watching him drive. He like Lewis are amazing to watch. They both have incredible awareness/reflexes and are very smooth in their driving styles respectively.
He tested a F1 Jordan and Eddie Jordan said "he was immediately fast".
I'd argue hes the greatest, im sure he was as quick as the f1 drivers of the time when he went up against them, plus he thrashed Jensen button in that extreme E championship driving for lewis hamiltons team, for the fact hes come back and in all fairness beat the current wrc 8time champion ogier with a car that was on the most part slower than the toyotas (he had a better road position on the friday when he whooped everyone) at 47years old with only 1 test in the car, he has to be top of the pile..... he will never agree to that though, in a video interview he did when he retired he stated categorically that he thought colin mcrae was the greatest rally driver he ever went up against.
P.S Aiden, ogier has retired end of last season as he doesnt want to beat loebs record, hes only contesting 4rallys including monte this season, rumour has it that loeb will now go head to head with him on the remaining 3rallys hes to compete in, it is literally just for banter at this point
I stopped watching rally around the same time as you. Was a massive Peter Solberg fan. Burnsy was always my second car. I do recall how utterly dominant Loeb was, and how astounding it was given the spectacle of the close competition in previous years. Did loads for Citroen as well, before that they weren't the same force as they became. Before Loeb it looked like Ford and Peugeot would fill the void left by the decline of Subaru and Mitsubishi
Watching this just after watching the ROC :)
Currently forced to stay in bed because of nausea when standing. this video took me out of the spiral for a good while so thank you for the emmersive discussion based video.
You are right about the snobbery regarding F! drivers, but the driving skills of Rally drivers are clear to see (but it receives very little TV coverage). especially as non racing drivers, virtually everyone, love driving on the type of roads they drive on, but would be doing them at a vastly reduced speed, and no car control on the gravel/dirt/ice conditions with a cliff edge or random farm house right on the edge of the road. The number of stages in each event is eye watering (including having to drive a possible damaged car to the start of the next one), let alone number of events. I used to love watching it when it was more accessible. The stats are amazing, one WRC is brill, but so many in a row, can't just be car reliability.
BTW love the footage of your rally skills, visually good and kept it on the road, don't know how competitive your were though...
We might bring up Jacky Ickx just because he raced with everything.
I don't think there are too many questioning whether he is the best driver of all time.
He started his rallying career with a unique (at the time) driving style which helped him win everything. He won every rally in the juniors. He showed his insane speed from the very first rally at the top level, finishing 2nd. He won his 2nd rally at Monte, but he was pushed to 2nd because of a silly penalty and 1st place went to Tommi Makinen. Then Loeb barely missed out on the overall championship in his first full season and won all 9 after. It's not like he didn't race against amazing drivers either. He won vs Makinen, Solberg, Gronholm, McRae, Hirvonen, etc.
He was fast when he tested an F1 car, but was pushed away from it because he lacked the required experience in the sport (lol). When he was done with WRC, he went on to become a touring car driver and won a bunch of races, finishing 3rd in both of his seasons. Then he went to do rally cross and despite having an inferior car got 17 podiums, including 2 wins.
He came back to do a few rallies here and there. He won an incredible rally Spain in 2018 at age 44. Did his signature backflip. Hyundai signed him on for a few events in the next couple of years. He adapted to their wonky car, but driving it didn't feel all that natural to him, so he got a couple of 3rd places and a few middling results. Some questioned if he still had it.
Well, this year over the course of 5 weeks he: got 2nd at the Dakar (ultimately with more championship points than Al-Attiyah), then after these grueling 2 weeks of desert racing went straight to do Monte and won that in a car he had barely tested with a 50-year-old math teacher lady as a co-driver (he did do his backflip as usual, now at 47), then as the cherry on top went on to win Race of Champions last week.
So is Loeb the greatest driver? Yes, yes he is.
Гонки WRC смотрю с 2000х Leb классный,рад его видеть победителем в Монако.
How about a video on the most dangerous motor vehicles to ever race. The 500cc two stroke motorcycles.
You need to do it, Aidan.
Like most racing classes in the 2000s I started switching off when manufacturers started pulling out, my memory of Loeb is him in his first few seasons, I was unaware he took so many titles
He's so good, I literally named myself after him.
So you should call yourself Sébastien as his real french name.
@@thierrymilan2039 I adopted the English spelling but otherwise yes. Also after Bourdais ☺️... Then Sebastian Vettel joined Ferrari alongside Kimi and everyone thinks I named myself after him 😭😭😭. Using the French spelling just would have resulted in more "I'll spell it out S E B...."
“Like he’s plugged into the FACKING Matrix!”?!!! My favorite line from you Aiden LMFAO!!!
A key element in Loeb's success is the fact he was an international level gymnast. The ability to analyse and control the movement of every muscle in his body is not irrelevant in a motor sport context. I have a firm belief that the place to look for the commercial holy grail of Motorsport (a successful female F1 driver) is to seek talent in the vast pool of retired female Olympic gymnasts. Their dedication, physical courage and resilience is unquestioned if you understand what they put themselves through to achieve that level. All contained in tiny physical package that would be an F1 designer's dream.
on that note, please can you do a Storytime of when Senna went to do a day or two of rallying in 1986, with various cars? pretty sure he did a few Group B ones!
Easily one of.
And there is a Valid argument for the best ever.
Great job as always Aidan
Just recently discovered your channel and I have been enjoying it.
I always felt the rally drivers are the best just because of the fact they need to deal with the elements that change constantly. Loeb needs to be in any conversation of best driver along with NASCAR drivers like Jimmy Johnson. Any driver who is at the top of their chosen discipline deserves it and should not be discounted just because it is not F1.
Jimmy was top of the pile in NASCAR, but he has had trouble with high-downforce open-wheelers. I think it was a bit too late in his career to branch out since by that time he had specialized so much.
Yep, Jimmy was the best. Tom Kristensen is a good call too. It’s fun watching him make everyone look ordinary when he attends the Goodwood Revival.
True No. 1 Rally WRC Legend
I really like running analogy. Who's the best ever athlete in running - the one who mastered sprints or the champion of marathons? You see, sprints and marathons are both about running, but practically sprinters and long-distance athletes need different skillsets to win in their categories. They're a world apart. The case with racing and rallying in the same. Both are about driving cars, but practically these are different disciplines. You can't simply compare athletes, who do different sports.
In the case of Sebastien Loeb, he's the greatest rally driver of all times. At his peak, he was head and shoulders above anyone else and he enjoyed a longevity of success. Loeb was basically forced into retirement with the rise of "Panzerwagens", by which I mean the arrival of Volkswagen with a cosmic budget and close-to-unbreakable cars in 2013. They made Sebastien Ogier the new Loeb by having him a as testing driver for a year and then giving him a WRC equivalent of a rocket ship.
Loeb tried his hand in racing: prototypes (Le Mans), GT cars (2013), touring cars (2014-15) or rallycross (2016-18). He was impressively competitive everywhere he went, but everywhere was bested by someone else. If you simply take his WTCC stint - Lopez and Muller who beat him to the championship, are faster racing drivers. There can't be a debate that they outcompeted Loeb. So here's the answer how Loeb would compare in racing against people who always raced cars. He could keep up with them, but not win against everyone.
He has an amazing argument in his favour. Specially considering how he won championships even when his car wasn't the best (2006-07, when Ford actually beat Citroen and Marcus Gronholm almost beat Seb in his final year in '07, after missing out the previous year due to crashing out in Australia, in a year where Loeb could've won it with even more rallies to go despite driving for the non factory Kronos team due to Citroen being out before they came in with the C4).
Still, he has against him the fact that he couldn't get it done in WTCC and the World Rallycross Championship. But for me it could perfectly be compensated if he finally breaks through to win his first Dakar Rally.
Although he couldn't quite hack it in the FIA world RX championship, Loeb does have one rallycross title under his belt - the 2012 X Games rallycross championship, where he completely tore Ken Block a new one in his home turf & showed how far behind the rallying game American drivers are at compared to European talent.
@@legoferrari14 I remember sawing that race and seeing Seb being so much better than everyone, in complete control of the car at all times, not sliding every corner. He's our national treasure.
Solberg is a WRC and WRX champion. He never had the temperament of Loeb but I believe he was quicker. Ekstrom is another great multidiscipline driver.
Totally agree with your point… also Walter Röhrl is for sure one of the best, this man is a monster...
I totally agree that Tom Kristensen deserves to be in the GOAT debate.
"they are just turning left"
"they just drive sedans in country roads one by one"
as pointless it is to compare racing disciplines to another, it would be quite easy to argue rallying is the toughest because there's so litle room for error yet the drivers only really get the recce to prepare some really gnarly circumstances.
In the b roll I stacked it multiple times.
If you could put any F1 champion against any top level rally driver in a decathlon of racing disciplines, my money is on the rally driver every time.
Don't know if anyone's informed you here, but i cant be arsed to scroll. But Seb Loeb was testing that msport all through december with the team, took them up to a private strech near his too for testing... That was a week or so before he placed second at the dakar. This man is 47 years old and is killing the off beaten paths still. What a machine
Yes.
I think he is, yeah. Especially considering his background. My own national perspective says Andretti and SuperTex need to be in the conversation, too.
great video, he's definately up there and there definately needs to be less snobbery about only drivers who wher in F1 beaing greats, however that can't start happening untill F1 stops being treated as the only motorsport by some parts of the media. I have pesonally never understood why people switch of because of one person winning, maybe that's part of my autism i don't know, more to the point you get to witness history so it makes no sense to me
Marko: "our decision has been made, Seb will be in the Red Bull seat next season"
Loeb, Vettel, Buemi, Bourdais: *visible confusion*
Wholeheartedly agree with Clark, Loeb and then the others
Tom Kristensen 9 times Le Mans winner must have a good shout for one of the best drivers ever
Thanks
Yes of course he was so good I stopped watching WRC all together... At the time I was interested in the Subaru WRX and Pete Solberg.
Loeb was crushing it all year round with the hatchback... Though now I have recently just take a sneak preview of the Yaris doing very well in the WRC... Can't ignore his streak as a WRC champion.
I think there's also another factor; specialization. Back in the 1960s, when Clark was competing most drivers were multidiscipline drivers. His death in an F2 race and Bellof's death much later in a Group C kinda put a stop to most top F1 drivers going to other disciplines. The lack of incentive did the rest. Nowadays, the quality of driving (whether most people like it or not) has gotten higher and there's more specialization in every discipline than there ever was in the past.
So, in some ways, Loeb just turning up and winning races and podiums in such a wide range of motorsport like WTCC, GT3, Le Mans, Dakar all while having steamrolled the competition in WRC for nearly a decade (in one Corsica rally he won every. single. stage) definitely qualifies him as the greatest in my eyes. And anything he does now is a bonus, both for him and for all of us.
I'm barely a minute or two into the video, so I'm not sure you'll bring it up, but the fact he won Monte Carlo after just basically showing up a little bit after Dakar at the AGE OF 47 (and did a standing backflip on the podium) is a testament to his massive athletic and driving skill.
He's been out of the rally game for almost a decade, and comes back into the new electric-hybrid era and just sends it and takes the win.
I'm not sure if he's the GOAT driver, but it may just be that nobody nearly as good as him has shown up to WRC events to truly challenge him (outside of perhaps Ogier).
Mario Andretti is a guy who among Europeans, at least, seems to get short shrift in spite of having an insanely long career and actually being a F1 world champion. I consistently see him ignored when it comes to lists of top American racing drivers despite the long list of accomplishments in F1, Indycar, stock cars, sports cars, and even being an overall winner at Pikes Peak.
As for the question at hand, Loeb is the best wheelman of my lifetime. The challenge I have with him is he was so dominant for so long and did so in a sport where head to head competition was rare, and so we never have that moment like Rossi going around the outside in the last corner of the 2009 Catalan GP. It appeared effortless to him to do something that was so intensely dangerous and difficult that a F1 world title contender in Robert Kubica's career was effectively ended trying to do it.
One last thing: Auto racing tends to be like boxing where the olden eras of the sport are treated as fantasies. When Jim Clark won the World Drivers Championship, he did so in an F1 season that consisted of no more than 10 races. He raced in other series as a necessity because at the time there were no gigantic contracts and huge corporate sponsors in F1, and these series tended to be domestic level series with domestic level competition. That's not to say that being the 1964 BTCC champion isn't good or impressive, but how much more impressive is it compared to being the 1964 USAC Stock Car champion? The latter counts for almost nothing today in spite of being a major series in it's era with manufacturer support and hall of fame racers in it like Foyt, Andretti, the Unsers, and Parnelli Jones. This is only exacerbated the further you go back. I have no doubt that Tazio Nuvolari or Bernd Rosemeyer were great, but understanding proper perspective of what was happening at the time is shaky at best from current historians much less casual fans. The pre-war drivers also get a bum rap from modern fans because there was no world driving championship to win.
♥️ S.L. @ Pikes Peak! Breathtaking
Based on his dominance of an elite Motorsport series he absolutely belongs in the conversation. I also think that the diversity of car control skills and um… balls… required for success in rallying should factor in too.
I like that you included Andretti as well. Not just because of his performance at his peak but the longevity and range of cars, series, locations he has success at is kind boggling. Daytona 500, Indy 500 win and competitive drivers well into his 40s and a Formula 1 title even though he spent most of his F1 career as a part timer? Very impressive.
He's done rally, touring cars, and won the Race of Champions multiple times. Possibly one of the best all rounders, with old school names like Moss and Clark, as well as contemporaries like Tom Kristensen. Plus 9 championships in a row, by an individual. In motorsport, that has a chance of not being repeated.
I mentioned this on Fan Voice, that the only example I could think of for uninterrupted championships in another sport is snooker's OG Joe Davis winning the first 15 World Championships in a row, and even that comes with caveats - some of them were invitational rather than tournament in those days, and the Second World War came between titles 14 and 15. The other sport I watch on TV is sumo wrestling, and its record is 'only' 7 in a row, which due to how its calendar works, means winning every top flight title for a full year and a bit. In motorsport terms, you could say 'Ascari-ing it', I guess?
Loeb definitely is in that elevated category, he's been part time and full time, and he still wins. Il est magnifique, as they say in Alsace. It was tough watching him in Extreme E, because he was driving for Hamilton's team, so I didn't want him to win, but he's Sebastien Loeb, so I did want him to win, too. Yeesh.
Edit: Joe, not Fred, got the wrong brother...
I always put Kankkunen up there as greatest of all time material. Mostly because I remember watching Rally racing for the first time in the 90s and some reason always remembered him. Also Group B was fucking scary.
He is such an interesting character. Very timid compared to the typical Finnish rally driver, calculating. Always had very quick teammates to compare him to. Won in all sorts of different cars, teams and regulations.
I question if the Race of Champions is a level playing field for the broad range of motorsport. True, the competitors do have the same equipement and driving the same track. But in my mind Race of Champions events are always a bit rally-stage oriented. There should be adding some more disciplines (karting and 5km track lay-out) next to the the small, narrow and twisty stages it contains. I think each racing category can have it's own legend. And if that legend excels is also other categories, it's a legend in a new category (A+B). As we can't compare periods in history, both technically and equal on chances (let alone all the talents we lost prematurely), legends are made by their fans (and statistics only support those). For example, I guess the majority of you all count Gilles Villeneuve as legend by his driving style, while statistically he's at the backend of the Top50 F1 drivers of all time.
Good is good. All there is say about Seb Loeb. Oh yeah since you mentioned Carl Edwards I would like to see them both backflip together.
In modern championships that are getting longer and longer, it's trickier for F1 drivers to dabble in other championships. Drivers of bygone eras had that luxury but Loeb, Schumacher and Hamilton didn't(as much atelast). I'd have to have seen them have the opportunity to run in other categories to see their diversity.
Lobe is definitely up there, his exploits in the World Rallycross Championship weren’t too shabby either.
the fact he drove Le mans , GT ,Dakar & now the extreme series ,come back does a handful of testing for M sport then wins (with a little fortune ) in2022 i'd say this guy is a top5 driver of all time & is the only non F1 driver to be a top of Autosport's driver of the year over the time run
Loeb was the greatest, but nobody got me more exited like Colin did.
His style was just spectacular!!!
Rest in piece. ❤
The fact a 47 years old -retired for 10 years- dude can just show up to a WRC and win it says a lot.
I'll never be able to say who is the gratest driver ever, but he sure is one of them
For me it is, it always has been for me since I was a child. Winning the WRC 9 times, IN A ROW + winning your WRC re-debuts takes more than good skill. Add to that getting a Pike's Peak first attemp win and track record plus some temarkable results in touring car racing and endurance and no one, NO ONE can cast a shadow on his career. By miles ahead the fastest and most talented human behind a wheel to ever live.
Agreed. No one in Europe rates Aj foyt, rick myerss, Unser family, Dario franchitti, scot Dixon from indycar. I'm sure there is a lot of examples for BTCC. Only recently got back in so i don't know much about the history atm (kinda wish you did some more BTCC history so i could learn more,)
Also why is john surtees never in the conversation. Given he is the only world camp on both 2 wheels and 4. Nigal mansell is the only person to be the F1 champ and the indycar champ as well