Controller ALMOST Causes Mid-Air Collision!
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2023
- Allegiant Air Flight 485 had to take evasive action to avoid a mid-air collision with a private jet off the coast of Florida. Here's what you need to know!
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I’ve been a center controller for nearly 25yrs. I reached out to some contacts in that part of the country. ZJX (Jacksonville Center) had shut off Miami Center in that area due to volume and weather. This is a not unusual as there are some systemic issues with the airspace. There is also copious amounts of military airspace off the coast that restrict where civilian a/c can fly. Combine all of these variables together along with mediocre support from the “command center”, certain sectors have a fair chance of getting buried. In this case the Allegiant a/c was deviating for weather along with many others. Sometimes an aircraft may end up deviating further than anticipated and they won’t tell the controller. If 9 of 10 a/c go in one direction, then the last guy does something entirely different, the controller may not catch it in time. TCAS RA worked. It’s a good system. These issues don’t occur in a vacuum and there are usually many factors that lead to issues, just like a/c accidents.
Hi - thank you for sharing your experience and views. It sounds like a really tough job in such a crowded space. Stay strong…
I can't imagine the stress.
So glad I came across your channel my friend ! It's not my normal thing that I watch but it certainly is now ! Thanks 👍🏴
Thanks! Glad you found the channel!
On a new airbus the autopilot will fly the RA the system is called The TCAP TCAS Alert Prevention (TCAP) and is installed on A350 aircraft and on A380 aircraft delivered since July 2013. TCAP is also installed on all A320 family aircraft produced since early 2021, and on all A330 aircraft produced since October 2017 (since February 2016 on A330 aircraft with RR engines). Older airbus aircraft would fly the RA using the AP/FD TCAS is installed on all A350 and A380 aircraft. The function is installed by default on all A320 family aircraft produced since February 2017, and on all A330 aircraft produced since April 2012. Airbus developed the systems after a study found that only 40% of tcas ra were flow correctly by pilots . Now the pilot can allow autopilot to fly the resolution or fly it him self following the vertical speed guidance by climbing into the green area on the vs tape
Thanks! I thought it was only on the A320 NEOs and the A321s. I fly the A350 and like the functionality built into the autopilot. Appreciate the detailed feedback!
@@pilot-debrief love the videos thanks for the content
I was an Avionics/Electrical Tech for American Airlines. I don't recall an autopilot on any of our aircraft taking and responding to a TCAS RA. Not even on the 787. Great video though!
See one of the other comments that explains this a little further. I can testify that the A350 does it.
From a passenger's perspective, this is another reason to keep the seat belt on. It also gives me confidence in the TCAS system. However, the FAA scares the hell out of me.
Yep, the seatbelt on was the main reason no passengers were injured!
I fly commercial and private, and have no plans of stopping anytime soon, but you’re right - The FAA has become a hot mess. I’ll feel better after there’s some turnover and serious people are running the show.
During a flight this year, we were just cruising along and suddenly it felt like the plane hit a wall. Everyone’s eyes turned into saucers and the seatbelt sign came on immediately. The pilot said hastily “flight attendants take a seat”. Then the plane nosedived. Then it nose dived again. As a passenger who didn’t know what was going on, it was terrifying. (Are we going to crash?) The pilots didn’t say anything for a long time but when they finally came back they said “We’re sorry about that. We hit an air squall that air traffic control didn’t tell us about.” How would you interpret this statement? Is it air traffic controls’ duty to inform pilots of bad weather or should pilots avoid it on their own?
@@garygolfer3243 yes the FAA to some extent, but it’s Congress, you know, those folks that love to distract on just about any topic other than getting things done, that have underfunded and let this get out of hand.
@@Jimmer-tr6bi True, they have been underfunded since inception, but the current administrators are a huge problem right now. Infrastructure money has been available for several years including the $518 million for AIP since June 2022…. Nothing has been done or even started in the planning phase because Billy Nolen redirected money elsewhere. Pete Buttwedge refuses to lead and do anything about it while also refusing to release his flight records. Confidence in the FAA is at an all time low from those in the industry because of current dishonest personnel.
Thanks for the video. I am glad folks like you are here. I never watch/read local or national news for info anymore.
Thank you for bringing all the details together into the full story. Strange that ATC allowed two flights in the same direction and altitude to get into a ninety degree conflict risk.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Great explanation and video. Thank you.
Nicely explained. Thank you.
You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed it!
Another educational video friend. Thank. Amen 🙏.
Allegiant not having a great time, near mid air collision, and severe turbulence leaving several injured, and dropping around 4K ft quickly. July was not their month
Nice video, but I’m curious about something. You say the A320 diverted back to Ft. Lauderdale because of this incident, but that the TCAS worked perfectly and a collision was avoided. So why did the A320 have to divert back to Ft. Lauderdale? Thanks.
One of the flight attendants got injured during the maneuver.
Yes, one of the flight attendants got hurt.
Have been watching for about a wk now after I stumbled upon your channel & really enjoy it.
Question: how does this system determine which plane takes action to climb or drop down in altitude?
I think the atc audio would be helpful if you can find it
TCAS probably saved many lives over the years.
I saw an Allegiant Air on 9/10 around 3pm going by with its gear out at an odd place and height so I opened FR24 and they had done 2 go arounds at PIE St Pete Clearwater and then they just headed off to Orlando Sanford. Came back an hour or so later. Curious what happened on that one
I was just working on some of the audio I could find with ZMA, the turn east was per-request for weather.
Thanks for clarifying!
Good. Thanks.
You should do one on the JAL / ANA near miss about 10 or 15 years ago, would LUV to hear your take.
Why did Allegiant make that turn to the right if it was going to Lexington?
Whether deviation, according to one of the comments that has connections into ATC. That makes sense since both aircraft were deviated east when their actual flight plans were both north and northwest. Hope that helps.
Sorry , a little late to the party. I have been catching up on your vids. I am 45 year Aircraft Maintenance and Manufacturing (C5, C130), and recently retired and only a few hours logged in a 172 . My question is: If you are just starting an aproach lets say, Autopilots engaged , Auto throttles , all the wiz bang stuff on and clicking and you get a TCAS alert to climb. How much lag is there between your manual input and overcoming the aircraft protections for the configuration (if any) ? Thanks and keep up the great posts.
I am brand new to this and am addicted to your channel. Want to get my license here in Oregon. Just curious as a pilot how rare is the tcas alarm in any of the three ranges? Thanks
I see you have your SJ Strike Eagle vertical stabilizers on the wall. I currently live in Havelock, N.C., which is around MCAS Cherry Point. No doubt you have been there in both the Eagle and as a Marine Corps exchange? I see Seymour Johnson F-15Es flying around here occasionally. Do you still live in N.C. or did you leave after you got out of the Air Force?
Amazing for sure.
I used to fly the Mad Dog for allegiant out of Vegas
Off topic but can you please address why, when there's an emergency, the pilots have to provide souls, fuel, haz mat? You would think that souls and haz mat could be entered at the start of the flight and, as soon as the plane squawks 7700, it could automatically broadcast this information along with fuel in kg, tonnes, and minutes. It seems like an unnecessary burden on the pilots.
Perhaps it could be automatic but with passenger loads potentially changing all the way up until leaving the gate, it would be prone to error. It’s not a big deal for pilots to provide the fuel and souls and it’s always provided when able, so it’s never a priority or rush.
I would imagine they would't want to rely on the plane to broadcast the data correctly, because an emergency implies something could be wrong with the aircraft systems, including its ability to send data. Faster and more efficient to ask directly than go roundabout asking if electronics that reports fuel is affected.
@@pilot-debrief Valid points but perhaps it could be entered once the doors are closed and sent to a central database before taking off. It shouldn't change after that point.
I often see pilots having to repeat themselves or provide the same information when handed off to another controller. That is, in my view, an unnecessary distraction.
Also, there is no consistency with fuel. Some controllers ask for kg while others ask for lbs or minutes. Time allows the controller to know how much time they have before they must land. Weight is probably most useful for firefighters. A computer can send all of this and keep it updated in the case of a fuel leak. While a computer could have problems with its readings, I don't see how the pilots would be able to provide better information.
@@munroegarrett The a big reason it's not filed before and ATC just uses that is for sure liability. Liability protection is a big reason a lot of things are done the way they are. See if it's prerecorded or even transmitted from the plane and the ATC just goes with it and its wrong and death or large property damage results and there is a lawsuit, ATC and thus FAA will be held liable for damages due to their decision to not ask to get the real info. They have taking responsibility onto themselves for the information being correct since they made the decision to use it with zero verification. But if the policy is to ask the pilot, now the pilot and his company if there is one is on the hook if the info is wrong and it results in a death or whatever as in that case it is clearly the pilot who made the mistake and the pilot is unarguably more responsible for knowing how many people are on his plane and what's in his cargo hold than ATC is.
The planes were probably too far away from Florida STCAs since the incident happened way out over the ocean. And that they just got caught up in each other's flight path. Glad this didn't end up like Mato Grosso or Uberlingen.
BBCC has a dozen birds in the air for each class period. ATC directs all planes at the end of class to approach airfield over “blue siloes” and call.
There is almost a mid air collision at the end of every class every day. It’s only a matter of time. 😢
The 2 aircraft were separated by only 2.59 miles…….thats not too bad all you need is a few inches
I wonder if there's a way to determine how close the aircraft would have come to each other had the TCAS system not been in place and no action had been taken.
seat mates.
You look at the data before the change of altitude
There's roughly 7 miles of usable altitude for commercial air traffic so, why do they direct them to fly the same altitude.
Wonder why EDG didn't recognize or suspect the issue on their own. They had the observation advantage. Don't they have a "radar" system?
*THIS IS WHY AIRLINES SHOULD GO BACK TO JUMBO JETS - 4x PASSENGER LOAD = 25% OF TRAFFIC*
The TCAS system saved the day, but why wasn't ATC more involved?
For a passenger, what did the evasive climb from airbus “feel like?” Is it terrifying? Did they understand what was going on? I didn’t hear or read much about what the passengers experienced.
There are some local news reports with passenger interviews if you search on youtube
There was a very tragic mid air collision in Switzerland. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision. Air control sent two planes on the same altitude and noticed the danger of collision very late. TCAS worked correctly. However, while one pilot followed the TCAS saying "descent", the other pilot did an "ascent" as TCAS told him but followed the air control instruction to "descend". So both descended and collided eventually.
Crazy to think if that system told both to climb or descent big problem how does it determine which one climbs which descends
The aircraft that issues the ra first will issue descent and also transmit that to the other aircraft; which must then choose climb. Each aircraft has a unique number associated with its system that it transmits along with the ra, so in the unlikely event that both aircraft transmit the descend ra at the same time, the one with the higher unique number will reverse its decision.
I was on flight 485 headed to Lexington when this happened. Any questions, ask away!
damn
Hmmm, you call a 2.5 mile lateral separation a close call? I remember on a flight, at cruising altitude, large airliner, looking out my window and suddenly seeing a flash of red going the opposite direction. Because of speed of both planes it was just a fraction of time, but I did realize it was another plane flying in opposite direction. I didn't think much of it. Figured this was normal. Estimating the size of the plane I saw, I would guess it flew no more than 2000 yards away, maybe more? It looked pretty big. Big enough that had it not passed by so quickly I could have read the name on the side of it easily. I suppose that was a close call then? There was no announcement and no one gave it a second thought.
Must've been Hunter
both planes should have TCAS & ADSB in / out, one plane should have has auto evasive built in maybe both, so Not sure how this happen with these two planes.
Autopilot does not fly any RA's as far as I know. I don't know if it's required but pilots tell ATC when they are operating with a RA, presumably to let controllers know TCAS is taking priority over ATC instructions.
The A320 NEO and A350 both have the autopilot fly the RA for you. Check out one of the other comments on this video that has some more details.
😮😢😂‼️✔️☝️👌
Why didnt the pilot continue with flight. Seems a over reaction to return flight
Someone was injured on the plane.
One of the flight attendants was injured.
@pilot-debrief right they must of pulled up rapidly
These planes would have been fine if they did nothing, this was not a close call just an alert.
I'd place a small bet on the "Traffic Controller Diversity Hire" possibility.
I take it that you believe there is only one ethnic group capable of becoming an ATC or perhaps one sex is better than the other when it comes to this job?
@@richardlanders5300 Not at all. What I do strongly believe is that when you hire based on *anything* other than sheer competence and proven skill, then you're bound to suffer the consequences.
Have you got any sort of evidence?
@@ecstrat1966 Did I write anything that would suggest that I have solid evidence rather than a mere hunch? Whence the hunch? How about the *statistically* anomalous increase in the number of potentially very serious near-accidents involving the latest generation of traffic controllers over the past few years?
@@ernestoherreralegorreta137 while that could be it. I would lean more into people taking the safety barriers we have in place for granted.
6th comment ❤
Since the conflict occurred in positive controlled airspace, why did the controller make the most basic mistake of putting those airplanes on a collision course at the same altitude? Was this an example of FAA's prime directive of diversity hiring?
Controllers are incompetent.
Another over the top title for clicks. Little disappointed and this entire video was stretch, not much of a story to tell. And at the beginning you said 1 had to turn back because what happened. Nothing happened so why did it return? Might help to finish what u start
U are so rude
So the system worked.......WHY an 8 minute video to waste people time? Gezzzzzzzzz
Mentour pilot would take 40 minutes.
@@K1OIK
YA......you got THAT right!!
@@doesntmatter3068 "Hoover" is far more efficent.