Yugoslavia in World War Two - a tale of resistance, collaboration, and betrayal
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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This video is an attempt to summarise a fiendishly complicated and often nasty story - that of Yugoslavia in World War Two. There are heroes and there are villains, and there are many ambiguous shades in between.
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During the war, most English people wrote 'Jugoslavia', but now most people write 'Yugoslavia' in English. I'm happy with both spellings.
Mihailovic admitted to a British colonel that the Chetniks' principal enemies were "the partisans, the Ustasha, the Muslims, the Croats and last the Germans and Italians" [in that order].
Picture credits:
Bosnian SS troops
By Bundesarchiv, Bild 146-1977-137-20 / Falkowski / CC-BY-SA 3.0, CC BY-SA 3.0 de, commons.wikime...
Fitzroy Maclean image
By Source, Fair use, en.wikipedia.o...
Map of Yugoslavia
By DIREKTOR (derived from PANONIAN's work) - modified version of this map: commons.wikimed... Info in the map is verifiable at: Tomasevich, Jozo (1975). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: The Chetniks. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-0857-9., p.90, Map 3. Partition of 1941, Public Domain, commons.wikime...
King Peter II
By Daventry (F/O), Royal Air Force official photographer - This is photograph CM 5648 from the collections of the Imperial War Museums., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Prince Regent Paul
By Royal Palace - ????? ???????? ?? ????? www.royalfamily..., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Slav migration map
By User Fphilibert from fr.wiki - here, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikime...
Late Roman migration map
By User:MapMaster - Own work, CC BY-SA 2.5, commons.wikime...
Ustashe leader picture
By Source (WP:NFCC#4), Fair use, en.wikipedia.o...
Randolph Churchill
By Cecil Beaton - media.iwm.org.u... is photograph CBM 1585 from the collections of the Imperial War Museums., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Marching partisans
By Unknown author - Zbornik secanja aktivista jugoslovenskog revolucionarnog radnickog pokreta, knjiga šesta (str. 400), Beograd 1960., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
DSO image
By Borodun - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikime...
Admiral Sir Walter Cowan
By Leonard Campbell Taylor - media.iwm.org.u... is photograph Art.IWM ART 3143 from the collections of the Imperial War Museums., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Jack Churchill
By Unknown author - homepage.ntlwor..., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Monte Casino
Bundesarchiv, Bild 183-J26131 / Enz / CC-BY-SA 3.0 / CC BY-SA 3.0 DE (creativecommon...)
BAF commanders
By Jones W A (Sgt)Royal Air Force official photographer - This is photograph CNA 3470 from the collections of the Imperial War Museums., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
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Having read a load of the comments, I am now reminded of things that I meant to talk about but neglected to. I always miss things out, and in a video of this unscripted length, it was probably inevitable that it would suffer in this way.
- Yugoslavia after the war did not become part of the CCCP (USSR). Though communist, it retained more independence from the Russians than other communist states.
- The Chetniks were the first people to liberate a European city from the Axis powers in WW2 ( Loznica).
- The reason the British sent Maclean to investigate Tito's forces was that intercepted German communications suggested that Tito's forces were fighting the Germans more than the Chetniks, and the British thought that the Germans were probably a more reliable source than the Jugoslavs.
- Tito did get some tanks from the Allies eventually - M3 Stuarts (just ten at first and by the end of the way enough for a brigade, which stayed in service until 1960).
- I never got back from my multiple digressions to say that Ratweek did in the end turn out to be very well-timed, and it caught lots of Axis forces on the move.
Congratulations on crossing the million-subscriber marker! You have given us a lot of wonderful content and considerations, and it's good to see that recognized.
Been here since 250 thousand subs, keep going you should have way more than a million.
Loyd! Please more videos like this! We need hours of you telling us all sort of stories!
During the war, my father was a young boy on the tiny, Otok Ist in the northern Adriatic. Early in the war British spotters were stationed on the island, in his house. My grandmother told a funny story of mistakenly bringing them down a bottle of vinegar from the attic thinking it was drinking wine. The British officer was so polite he drank it pretending nothing was wrong and thanked her. She only noticed her mistake when she took the glasses away.
One of the British soldiers, "John" is all I know of his name, saw someone running away from a package, and discovered a "paklena masina" (fused satchel charge I'm guessing) in the tiny center of the village. He picked it up and ran with it towards the water, preventing anyone else from getting injured. He never made it and was killed by the explosion.
The British spotters left soon after. They left medical supplies for the island with my grandmother, who was the island midwife.
Some time after, partisans were stationed on the island and lived in a remote, hidden cave. One day a small German patrol boat landed with engine problems, and the crew came to the village looked for help. The partisans heard about this, captured the crew, took them away, and shot them. They left the Island before a larger German boat landed, and took dozens of hostages for work camp. Most families lost someone. My father's nineteen year old deaf brother was in that group. None were seen again.
After the war my father's sister married an islander that survived. He wasn't on the Island when the hostages were taken. Because he could handle a small boat, and could pass for 18, he'd worked with the British and smuggled supplies from Italy to the partisans. That never made sense to me until you mentioned Otok Viz. He hadn't talked to me about his war, but I noticed he never identified himself as a partisan.
When I was a young boy in Brooklyn, and lived next door to him, I always enjoyed watching him eat. He would eat half a chicken using just a pocket knife and a piece of bread, in about 90 seconds. (In hindsight I realize that pocket knife was unusually tough. I suspect you'd have no trouble cutting through a substantial hemp rope with it.)
Thank you for your story. It helped me to understand that complicated time a little better.
*adjust adjust adjust*
THERE!
Why did you have to adjust your gold play button three times Lloyd?! Are you kidding me?! I''m jealous man.
Oh dear... Lindy's going Balkan. Hold on to your trench-hats everyone!
And prepare for a war in the comments
Yep
Am from Balkan, can confirm tendency to turn comment sections into WW7.5
It`s a BIT more complicated than that!
Lot of this is just wrong. Not sure where he got his info.
"Poland shifted to the left a bit, in more ways than one"
Nice one, made me chuckle.
Chuckle? not if you were ethnically cleansed.
@@rogerhudson9732 Probably not. But we can't be serious about everything all the time.
@You're Spying yeah because Poland did some ethnical cleansing itself on the native german population...
@@robinderoos1166
Oh, ok... what exactly you are talking about? o_O
@@przyczajonyjaszczomb probably about relocation of germans from silesia and pomerania. A bit silly to bring that up if someone asked me
“The bagpipes are a form of ranged weapon”
Can confirm. The N-W most region of Spain, called Galícia, has celtic roots and they play bagpipes in their folkloric festivities. NOBODY ever goes there and most spaniards dislikes the general concept of Galícia specifically because of the bagpipes. Go figure.
Invented by men who like to sit on thistles while wearing skirts.
Annoying AF if blared at the wrong person ?
It causes the enemy to shake and scatter
@@a.N..... like "oh my the have time and breath to play this penetrating yet beautiful music and fight and stand the cold AND are wearing skirts?? We have no chance!
Yugoslavia in WW2 “IT ALL STARTED 300 YEARS AGO”
Actually, it's rather 900 years ago, with the division of Christian church in 1054. Or even 1,400 years ago, when Slavic tribes started to inhabit the Balkan peninsula.
@@damyr how we sure didn't start 13.7 billion years ago
@@damyr Well no we didn't come there, we were there already
@@civotamuaz5781 well that's funny, the Greeks and Romans forgot to write that down... they wrote everything else down though... must just be an oversight. I'll e-mail Tacitus and let him know.
@@Milamberinx Respectfully, you could ask Catholics about Ancient Slavs. They have documentation in their big library. And there's a book. Our library was bombed so yeah. Peace.
I feel like I've waited forever for this. An hour and a half of nothing but beige and beard.
Oh it's an absolute *WETDREAM* come true!
Quarantine is getting to me....
@@PaulMab9 Quarantine? Where do you live?
@@zabunko
Culturally, we all live in America right now, unfortunately.
I dont know.... a bit too much brown in this video's brown to beige ratio.
JK: great video as always.
@@argh2945 Amerifat over here sadly agreeing
I've stopped wearing Red Devil grenades as a fashion accessory because of the excellent PSA provided by Lloyd concerning the unpredictable and often lethal nature of them. Thanks Lindybeige! 👍
Not me.
@@rudolphguarnacci197 says the guy with an italian name🤣
@@bosskanova685
You have something against Italians?
@@rudolphguarnacci197 no, I am Italian. It is just funny thinking of an Italian strapping lethal and unpredictable italian grenades to their belt.
@@bosskanova685
You could have fooled me with yiur moniker and your slur.
Me from the balkans reading the title: Oh god not good the comments will be fire
Me too.
It`s a BIT more complicated than that!
lol... same here
Not too bad, as far as I've seen so far. You want "fire", look up anything dealing with Macedonia/Greece.
And an hour and a half Lloyd video as well... trouble is guaranteed
I was seven years old when Tito died. I remember my austrian grandfather, a Wehrmacht soldier ( Eastern Front, not Yugoslavia) heard it on the Radio and told me "that is the end for yugoslavia! He was the only one that prevented them from shooting at each other!" Oh boy was he right!
@@saccount-z3 yes he was, but what has that to do with the special circumstances in former Yugoslavia?
@@saccount-z3 yes?
@@saccount-z3 I am confused
@@saccount-z3 I was confused about your empty answer. You seem to know nothing about the topic and you just want to antagonize me, so I end this useless conversation
@@saccount-z3 You don't make yourself very likeable, mate.
18:55 wtf lindy you almost gave me a heart attack
Me too!
seriously, i was looking away and it shook me badly 😑
Jump scares in history videos. Future is now old man
Was listening on headphones...nearly had a heart attack!
Kaboom
"Hit the pause button, it's usually the Spacebar" - actually it's more complicat- sorry, jumped the gun a bit there.
the k key
@@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin J and L to jump forwards and backwards. Shift , and . to speed up and down. , and . to skip a single frame forwards or backwards. F to toggle fullscreen.
I love how lloyd doesnt realize that the world is infested with braindead Gen Z who wouldnt know what a space bar is.
@@imoshyumosh3629 why gen Z? I would have thought the boomer generation would be a more likely target for that joke rather than the generation that have had a keyboard (with space-bar) on almost everything they touch
My Grandfather was Tito's assigned chauffer from Daimler Hire for the Queen's coronation. Tito presented him with a gold watch in thanks which I still own.
:)
Ok
Cool
As long as it's history is not the same as the watch from pulp fiction;)
My grandfather held posthumous guard for king Alexander, my father marched in a parade in front of Tito, and I carried Croatia's first president Franjo Tudjman's luggage during one of his final visits to Brijuni. :)
I don't have anything to show for it, though, so you win this round. :p
As a Serb myself, I have to say, it WAS more complicated than that.
yes, it was way more complicated than that. Im serb-romanian
Pah, you're making it sound so simplistic!
I'm Croat, I haven't even watched the video yet, but I agree with you both.
@@SIMUL4CR4 wish we were together in yugoslavia now but alas
@@lukakrstic1544 Only possible way I'd want to be a part of Yugoslavia was if it was not a communist country and if it had Bulgaria in it.
Bulgaria would serve as a good balance so that we don't kill each other against.
This was my father’s war. As a young man he was in the prewar Yugoslav army and when they were defeated by the Germans took to the hills and fought the Germans, 1941-1945 as an irregular. He never spoke about the war much, but given his strong hatred of communism I think he was likely with the Chetniks, but I just don’t know. His experiences traumatised him leaving him with a hatred of war to the end of his days, calling the 1990’s civil war crazy. He was a displaced person after the war, first in Greece then in Italy before immigrating to Australia in 1949. He never returned to Europe and passed away here in 2008.
here?
@@guineapig55555 "Here" being Australia.
@marino deželak And there was a very good reason he never have spoken about the war...you can guess, I presume.
@marino deželak
Don’t be stupid . The Nazi loving Ustashi didn’t take to the hills and fight the Germans as they welcomed the Germans and spent most of the war committing Genocide against Serb Civilians not fighting against armed soldiers . Peter Nakitchs father was obviously with the Yugoslav Army in the Homeland under the command of General Mihailovic .Peter Nakitch is as stupid as you for not knowing what his history and heritage is .
Many of my family is the same, the communists had really drilled it in to anyone who was against them. Books from ex-partizan generals are insane to me to read, tons of guilt was involved.
You read a book by a biased conservative with a posh attitude towards everything nonbritish and you wonder that you get a weird feeling about the thing Yugoslav people had no sympathies towards British by the end of the war. All that because west in general didn't do neirly enough in terms of numbers, supplies or blood spilled for the Yugoslav people compared to supplies and casualties CCCP sustained for liberation of Yugoslav people. Somehow British support was never there when you needed it. Not aereal, nor naval, let alone boots on the ground. Yugoslav people were alone for all the 7 major offensives. Mostly with weapons and amo captured from Germans and Italians. Only operations backed by the Brits were the ones solely for British interests. The numbers you're stating are drop in the ocean in terms of needs on the ground. Most of them landed in German hands anyway. Brits ended up backing the Italians who turned their caps in the middle of the war totally neglecting the 20 year genocide they were comitting uppon Slovenes and Croats in Friuli, Istria and Dalmatia. Turned out Brits could never be trusted. And Chetniks weren't that innocent. They too killed their own people and lost sympathies of their own people. They never fought the Germans in an extent the partisans did. Moreover they handed alied pilots to the Germans. They were backing a corrupt backwards/reactionary system that existed before the war and everybody hated. You Brits were initially backing them. That's why you had no sympathies from Yugoslav people who were fighting fascism (google TIGR) since its inception. A system your Churchill was otherwise very fond of since he too liked shooting africans like animals for fun. What you say in the end is mostly mithology of the fascist diaspora having the ear of conservatives like the author of your book. And in case you missed it, here is a greater comment than mine from Urošević:
there is so much wrong that I don't know where to start, but main issues are :
1. Almost all of things said about ustase movement - it was a defecto nazi puppet state that had such a horrible rule that it actually had concentration camp for children only. Their ideas followed ideas of national purity and extermination of Jews and Roma population, killing 1/3, converting 1/3 and expeling 1/3 of Serbs.
2. "whitewashing" of COLONEL Mihajlovic that was a leader of resistance at start of WWII in Balkans, but openly colaborated with germans against the Partisan resistance. Presenting him as some sort of martyr that was wrongfuly accused and trialed by comunists is pure revision of historical FACTS corraborated by german archives that are filled with documents that prove that nazis aided him in arms and ammo, and that in numerous battles his forces fought against partisans. Also note that his senior comanders were slaugthering civilians of all ethnic and religious origins under pretext that they were aiding partisans.
3. All of "national languages" we use in teritories of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro are basicaly 4 dialects of same language, and if I (from Belgrade, Serbia) would go to anywhere in those parts everyone would understand me, and I would understand them without any problems.
What was not even mentioned in this travesty of video is that WWII in Balkans was first and foremost a CIVIL war between all 3 major nations (even that is a problem calling them "nations") , secondly it could be even called a religious war (between orthodox, catholic and muslim belivers), and last but not least A CLASS war. All of this was mixed with fight for liberation of Yugoslavia from axis forces... So, "dumbing" things down in way done in this video is insulting and plain ignorant.
Civil war was fought literally between Serbs and Serbs, Serbs and Croats, Muslims and Serbs, just depending on where they were fighting - Partisan movement was so succesful because it was basicaly a liberation movement, involving all nations and religions, promising a reformation of new state, equal rights for all (for instance, women in Yu got right to vote soon after end of hostilities), education for all etc...
For ending this post, most dispicable is implication made in video of "we gave You everything, and You turned our back on us" - Tito and his NOVJ (People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia, name of partisans when they became an army) were aided by ALL of allies, and if there were supplies dropped in lets say Dalmatian islands like Vis, it was impossible to distribute it to lets say fighters in central Serbia or Macedonia, so it was normal for liberators of Belgrade to have a parade in Soviet equipement since the Red Army supplied NOVJ troops there when they came thru Romania/Bulgaria. Put in context the information that Yugoslavia was one of founders of UN, and that it was only occupied state in WWII that had constant efective liberating movement that fought axis forces. It was shoulder to shoulder equal ALLY of USA, UK and USSR since day that it became recognised by them - this is the most important FACT of history - partisan movement that became NOVJ was ANTIFASCHIST and LIBERATING part of allied nations of WWII, apart from all puppet states and their forces that were established in April of 1941 after dissolvment of Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Kapo dol za ta komentar
"you know what they say, never go to france", the most Loyd saying there is
I was going to say, "never get involved in a land war in Asia"
That is his quintessential Britishness coming through.
We germans don't second that. Always go to France. :P
Pa nemrem vjerovat di ja tebe nebum nasel
I've been to France. As long as you stay at least 1 km from the nearest road and don't ski off a cliff or canoe into Pas de Soucy, it's fine!
I see you’ve ignored the scholar’s cradle in favor of the scholar’s interdigitation.
He's got the gold play button now so he can indulge in such frivolities ;-)
Interesting 🤔
what
@@recklessroges I'll have you know that's solid interdigitation there, no frivolity at all, perfectly scholarly!
"That's not a comb-over. That's bed-head."
People who woke up to this video's notification can relate
Man does not own a comb - we wouldn't know him if he did...
I just wokee up its 5 pm lol
Actually it is more coplicated.
I do I do
@@jonathonjubb6626 British officer's uniform [X]
Suit of armor [X]
Cupboard full of weapons [X]
Toiletries kit [ ]
On your text addition around ~16:00 regarding the Ustasha, i feel like youre *definitely* being *much* too timid. The accounts ive read of Ustasha atrocities are staggering. Whether one wants to define them as Fascist they were definitely ultra-nationalist and genocidal in their persecution of any group except Catholic Croats in and around Croatia.
it can even be argued that they were worse then the nazis due to them having exclusively children death camps
I believe it was Pavelić himself who said that the best Croatians are Muslims.
We can see a chain of mutations. From nationalistic revolutionary terorists to fascist like party. And after that result of nazi enfluense.
How about you link in the "accounts you've read of Ustasa 'atrocities'" to back up your claim?
Show us all your references, or keep your mouth shut...
16:14
TELL ME WHY the Ustasa (would have) committed "Crimes of RETRIBUTION"?
@@RobFiles slightly like saying show me details of German atrocities or keep your mouth shut
even though you try to be objective, it's funny how it's hard for you not to keep a "british" perspective on things.
you portray tito as a loyal servant to moscow who played the west and gave his loyalty to stalin, established a centralized communist governemnt etc. etc.
in yugoslav socialism however, the state didn't own everything like in the soviet union, yugoslavia was run through socialist self-management, meaning the workers in the factories owned the factories they worked in through workers councils, not the state.
tito played stalin aswell, he is probably the first and only communist to ever say "no" to stalin and survive,
later he thought up and helped found the non-aligned movement of countries and acted not in interest of the west, not in the interes of the east, but in the interest of the yugoslav working class.
yes tito didnt want to let the english establish another puppet state by appointing some anglo-controlled monarchs as heads of state, but he also didn't let stalin take full control either, the only reason why he was able to take control is because he lied to western allies AND to the soviets, let them both believe they will control yugoslavia when the war is over, but instead took control himself, blackmailed the west to give him loans so he doesent join the eastern bloc, and blackmailed the eastern bloc to give him guns and buy his products so he doesent lean over to the west too much
im 15 minutes into video and he missed shitone of stuff xD
@@hatsuhioki9361 I rather suspect you'd still be talking about the shit ton of stuff missed in the first 15 minutes after the full hour and a half if you tried to cover everything.
Yugoslavia in World War Two - a tale of a english man talking about english men and some yugoslav stuff
@@dejankojic4293 ,,its complicated brate,, but he does not explain why, for anyone reading the chaos comes from lack of structure and hierarchy in all the armies except the German and Italian, but even they made face to face quick and cheap deals since there was no real front line and it was guerilla warfare. there is a HUGE difference depending on the occupier of the territory, warfare in occupied Serbia and NDH its not the same and mainly that's where the confusion comes from, yes the Germans were killing 1 for 100 in Serbia and there was constant raids and innocent people were getting killed for nothing, but the Ustase where committing genocide and ethnic cleansing on the Germans level, so lots of units came up just to protect their homes, villages or counties, they where chetniks or partisans mainly in name, so weird alliances came depending on the situation, revenge killings where a thing so everyone tried to keep it calm where there were equal armies, but the unprotected places where free for all, but basically the chetniks where more village based and cared of protecting themselves the most so they allied with whoever can help them in those situations, the Italians wanted to make the ustase look incompetent so they helped the chetniks and partisans and fought against them whenever they liked,the help was mostly letting them enter their territories when running away from the ustasa and acting like Switzerland there, the ustase had an idea to accomplish, but they were not strong enough so it was genocide where they can and deals with protected territories, with the ,,chetniks,, that is cause the partisans didn't want to ally themselves with fascists and nazis and had a more clear command so they fought more and more people joined them so in the end they had huge free territories, they would ally themselves with the ,,chetniks,, but it was depending on the situation and mostly their leader. The Germans, they just wanted a clear field so they were in kill all who oppose us mode. In Serbia the situation was different, except ethnic cleansing in Kosovo there were no bigger things happening there, the Chetniks had more of a clear command and were more organized, they allied with the partisans there a lot more, and fights were rare since they tried to go there separate way, , until 43 when because of the chetnik stagnation and the partisans who fought the occupiers more and started getting more and more support, the chetniks allied themselves with the Germans and tried to destroy them and their sympathizers,,. The Nedic, Ljotic and Pecinjac chetniks (not under the command of the chetniks we all think of now-Draza, and allied with the Germans from the start) were doing the germans bidding and ruined the chetniks reputation , but it didnt help in 43 when the Draza chetniks continued. But even here it depends on the leaders/cpt/warlords, by the end of the war many chetniks join the partisans and even more when the king asked them to stop fighting and join them, the main branch disregards the orders and continues the fight, tries to escape and dies of in the end. The albanians/balisti where anti yugoslavian so they allied themselves with the germans and italians(even tho they occupied their lands) but there where also some albanian partisans who fought against them , the bosnians didnt have it like the serbs or jews in NDH(since the ustase thought the bosnians were the most pure croats) so them mainly joined the ustase or germans or the partisans, they both have a special status since they are muslim and where mainly pro Ottoman empire/kalifat in that time.In slovenia the fights were not big but they also had a strong resistance, since hitler didnt like them also they were not used like the croats to dismember yugoslavia, when the war started the croats and their front deserted while the serbian and slovenian front held quite good, the macedonian front was terrible but its leader was General Nedic the later leader of the puppet state. who knows how the war would of went if there was no betrayal , poland held up good , but then again attacked from all sides so little hope.Its a different story why but they had there differences, their ideals, the means the time and the place to fight so they did add survive or die to that and you have ww2 in yugoslavia, the minority extreme reactionist groups like always took over the passive majority, i would just like to add that the difference between a Serb and Bulgarian or Serb or Slovene, im not going to even mention Serbs and Croats,Bosnians or Macedonians is a lot smaller then for example Sicilian and Napolitan.
I hate to watch Foreign videos on this subject, Especially british. They promised support to a lot of countries and then did nothing. The "Ultimatum" Yugoslavia got was not great but it ensured that if we were to accept nazi army pasing thru and enstablising a "Pro Fashist" goverment, the people (civilians mostly) would have passed better ( i'm not saying anything good abou the nazi's but it could have been better than " 150 civila za 1 njemca". We were prommised a lot by british but as ussual when the time came to fufill the promises they changed the opinion and did nothing (not only yugo, even better point is the tale of middle east and T.E. Lawrence. False promises that were never fulfiled
@@milanceydfvb4743 >when the war started the croats and their front deserted while the serbian and slovenian front held quite good
What? What will be Croatia (and Slovenia and parts of B&H) flipped Nazi because it was the front/massive buffer making up essentially the entire border of the slav parts of the balkans with the axis forces and the resistance of the balkans in general flopped within days since the axis was at a massive advantage in the territory unlike the fall of Yugoslavia where the difference in forces was mostly in access of resources and weapons.
And well, the better treatment under Austrian Empire and Austro-Hungary might have had some stuff to do with it, but mostly it was a militarily sane self perseverance option.
@@ANDELE3025 ANDELE3025 the tactic was let the tanks pass and fight the infantry, which makes the picture look alot diferent then it was, many cities that were officialy ocupied where just entered by few tanks and destroyed later, the tactic waa good and it was the oposite of what the soviets did but there was a lot of betrayal, the croats refused to fight and even captured there fellow soldiers who wanted to, many of the officers were later NDH officers , they hailed the nazis al liberators , there were lots of officers like Vladimir Kren who made the bombing what it was a battle like it was. That the banovina of croatia teritories held much of the front does not mean that there were mostly croats there and no the croats did not have a better treatment under austo hungary thats a joke ... New age propaganda like saying the croats were in ocupation and it was terible under the comunist yugoslavia, the country and king was liked and reapected by the masses a liberator and uniter , but politicly he was disliked by everyone and everyone was disapointed, they all had their own vission of how things gonna run in the new state and their status, it didint help when he like all of the other buffer states with the comunist became a dictator.
@@DrPsych0piromanfor churchill jugoslavia was probably just a pawn in a game to protect the british king.
In Yugoslavia during WW2 we had a war against axis occupators (Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Bulgarians), Quislings (White guard in Slovenia, Ustaše in Croatia, Nedić's and Ljotić's men in Serbia) and on top of that civil war between royalist and communists. Mix all of that with three religions Orthodox, Catholic and Islam.
Yes, it was more complicated.
Quinslings in Slovenia and Croatia were in it out because of ideology. Quislings in Serbia were in it out of necessity since Serbia fought 3 major wars in less than 30 years before WWII.
Stop downloading oppinions, educate yourself and maybe you will be able to form your own thought.
interesting thing, 'Quisling' was the name of the leader of Norway, [Vidkun Abraham Lauritz Jonnsøn Quisling], during the Second World War.
he had declared Norway's neutrality, yet put his country's industry into serving with the Nazi regime, despite the atrocities, thinking to protect Norway from German occupation.
the reality was that Norway was off Hitler's menu only under condition of co-operation and that it was de facto under German occupation.
"Military Advisors", you know, "neutral countries need to be able to defend themselves.."
in october 1945, he was shot. he had collaborated willingly.
@@michelguevara151 I know about Vidkun. I don't know for other countries, but in ex Yugoslavia states we use Quisling name as a term for someone who willingly collaborate with an enemy.
It's not rare to use the term in everyday politics to denounce your ideological opponents.
@@bison4202 You can make that argument for Nedić, but he was an officer of the Yugoslav army, and he knew what to expect if Germans lose the war.
His role in saving Serbs from rest of teritories outside Serbia is noble, but that doesn't change the fact that he willingly collaborate with Germans.
On the other hand, Ljotić was straight up fascist and, beside people of Smederevo, I doubt that anybody have to say something nice about him.
I’m a descendent of that time
When Lindy drops a movie length episode you know its gonna be a good day.
Would be a better day if he updated his Kickstarter scam, which he hasn't done since December 2019.
1 million subscribers cant be wrong this channel is great!
And I curse, because I rarely have enough time in a day to watch feature length documentary and these overly long videos are making me lose interest to this channel to a point of considering unsubscribing. (I have been subscribed way since there was less than 35k subscribers.) I liked it way more when we got more frequent and shorter content. Especially I miss short rant videos. 20-30 minutes is enough for a RUclips video.
@RavnDream Look it up, 4 years since the project started, and Lindy does not reply to it anymore, Scam is really the only word that covers it.
My great grandfather was from Yugoslavia and had many stories from when he was a kid and escaped to Canada. I was too young to understand the importance of sitting down and listening to his story before he passed away and will always regret not learning my family's history from him.
In August 1941 the Croatian Fascists established the Jasenovac concentration camp, one of the largest in Europe. This included the Stara Gradishka concentration camp for women and children. Jasenovac was much more barbaric than German Nazi-run camps, since prisoners were often tortured and many of the murders were done manually using hammers, axes and knives. According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., between 320,000 and 340,000 Serbs were killed in the NDH. Of the 39,000 Jews who lived in the NDH more than 30,000 were killed, 6,200 were shipped to Nazi Germany and the rest of them were killed in Croatian-run concentration camps. 'Slaughter',
'plunder' and 'terror' all were standard vocabulary in Wehrmacht portrayals of Croatian violence.
balkaninsight.com/2016/10/24/belgrade-jews-oppose-rehabilitation-of-wwii-serbian-leader-10-24-2016/
@@THEAG28011966 The area under control of the German Military Administration in Serbia was initially occupied by the Germans. It was later occupied mostly by Bulgarian troops, but remained under German military authority. This territory had two successive Serbian puppet governments which were under the control of the German military authorities. Of the Jewish population of about 12,500 in Serbia, under German occupation controlled by Hungary or the Independent State of Croatia, approximately 11,000 Jews were murdered.
@@denethorr3 Serbia during WW2 had a pro-Nazi govt run by Serbian General Milan Nedic. The Serbian police and militia groups helped the Nazis round up Serbian Jews. Serbia also had the pro-Nazi Serbian Volunteer Corps (Serbisches Freiwilligenkorps). Also, some Royalist Serbian Chetniks groups decided to switch sides and supported the Nazis by fighting the communist led Partisans.
@@northernstar4811 During World War II, the territory of Serbia was occupied by the Axis Powers from 1941 to 1944. Most of the area was occupied by the Wehrmacht and was organized as separate territory under control of the German Military Administration in Serbia. This territory included central Serbia with the northern part of Kosovo (around Kosovska Mitrovica), and the Banat. This was the only area of the partitioned Kingdom of Yugoslavia in which the German occupants established a military government. Even before the Yugoslav Army surrendered, German military authorities ordered the registration of all Serbian Jews. On 30 May, 1941 the German Military Commander in Serbia, Helmuth Förster, issued the main Race Laws, which excluded Jews and Roma from public and economic life, seized their property and required them to register for forced labor. Additionally, the Germans set up the Banjica concentration camp which was run with the help of the quisling administration, under Milan Nedić, but he was given very limited powers and was unable to issue orders. The camp was used to hold anti-fascist Serbs, Jews, Roma, captured Partisans, Royal Chetniks and other opponents of Nazi Germany. By 1942, most executions occurred at the firing ranges at Jajinci, Marinkova Bara and the Jewish cemetery.
However, it is refreshing to see the heirs of the Ustasa being ashamed of the crimes of their nation and even go so far as to smear others with the same accusations. ;)
@@denethorr3 "was run with the help of the quisling administration, under Milan Nedić"
That`s good you agree with me that Serbia had a pro-Nazi government run by Serbian General Milan Nedic during WW2.
I think its also fair to say that after the war, when Stalin asked Tito to join the Eastern Block, he said no and created The Non-Aligned Movement, therefore not allying himself with neither the East or the West
Yes, fair point. By communist dictatorship standards, he rule was better than most, but the bar is very low.
@@lindybeige it was really all over the place. Many great things were done all throughout the Yugoslavia, many factories rising up, city blocks being built in one go (fun fact: a district where I once lived in Split was called Split 3, and as far as I know its the last large scale building plan finished in Yugoslavia) and living standards were being forced fo stay as high as they could, with wages being kinda fair.. And yet there were still many atrocities done by Tito's "communist" regime. It really was a wild time.
@@lindybeige very true
I especially like the stories of how after yet another attempted assassination of Tito by Stalin, Tito is reported to have told Stalin that if he tried that again he, Tito, would kill him, Stalin!
And he, Stalin, did try again... and he, STALIN, did die shortly after in suspicious circumstance...
@@vladomne672 I hope you guys know that's not a real story :D. Don't believe Yugoslav nostalgia groups on FB or local tabloids (getting their news from facebook).
The thing is: no great power ever understood the Balkans. They always used the all the wrong metrics and in the end they either got burnt or made a big mess (or both).
No one, not even we that live here can understand.
But i can tell you how it feels: It is like constantly being between hammer and anvil. For centuries.
Can't give form to something that is formless.
Very similar to the middle east imo. Good job UK and US.
@joanne chon Kept the lid down? They were the main destabilizing force in the Balkans!
@@hebl47 Well...they certainly gave another layer of fuck-uppedness. :D :D :D
"You know what they say: Never go to France"
If only someone had told the French
I'm French.
I wish some one had told me before I went back..
I thought it was, "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
@@michelguevara151 your name doesn't sound french..
14:01
"Belgrade looked like Turkish fortress"
Architect here,
FYI the current incarnation of the Belgrade fortress, in spite of today bearing the Turkish name "Kalemegdan" ("Battle Fortress") was entirely built by Austrians in the 18th century, during their lengthiest occupation of the city, in then modern Vauban-like style. The city looked to Europe for architects and architectural model - church bell towers built in the 19th century including the Saborna Crkva (Church of Congregation) were roofed with pre-fabricated bronze roofs bought in Austria (the same as many churches in Austria, both Catholic and Orthodox, Zagreb included), all fancy buildings were built in the European "Academic" architectural style (Royal Palace, People's Theatre, Main Railway Station, Captain Misha's Palace). Geez, don't just say things without checking on facts...
Austria, Turkey, what's the difference?
@@carlosandleon one is Christian and just wants their land the other wants the land and churches
@@Emperor_of_all_Badgers it was a joke
@@carlosandleon I know
He did say some things that weren't accurate tbh.
Yugoslavia remained “semi-detached” from Russia under Tito. He had no great affection for the Russians, and Yugoslavia never became part of the Warsaw Pact. My guess is that he realized that he would not, after the war, get any support from Western nations, whatever they might have promised during it, certainly not such that would enable him to resist the USSR, and pursue his own brand of Socialism, so used his charm to negotiate the best deal possible with the Russians. In this he succeeded, to his eternal credit.
It may interest LB that in the early 70s, when I was an undergraduate student at Oxford, and I was studying “Communist Government in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe” ( a special paper), we role-played a diplomatic game at St Antony's College to simulate what might happen when Tito died. I was Serbia, and a particularly unpleasant American played the role of Croatia. After an hour or two, we genuinely began personally to hate each other, and we had to be kept apart for our mutual safety. The eventual outcome was that we agreed to stay part of Yugoslavia (although we had to call it something else and allow more self-government to its constituent parts) only because we both hated and feared the Russians more than each other. The conclusion of the game was that after Tito, Yugoslavia would remain united, but only while Russia threatened its component parts. In the absence of that threat, the warring tribes would resume their efforts to annihilate each other. Quite realistic, as it turned out.
I'm Croatian so I know what a mine field this topic is still to this day and I'm very grateful that you are covering it.
Thanks !!!
But why?
no better man to speak about it than Lindy
Pfft... It's easy for you. I can only be Yugoslavian (and that's with glossing over the fact that one of my grandfathers was born and raised in Italy) - and then they've smashed my country to pieces.
@@BlackQback What do you mean by "I can only be Yugoslavian"?
@@TheAce12570 it is the only true national identity of south slavs. As the name suggest.
Bosnians, Serbians, Croatians ect. Are all the same people. We just divide based on political manipulation from outsiders.
This is why he says all he can be is Yugoslavian, because to be proud of the current countries is to betray our brothers and serve outsiders to our people like we have for most of our history.
That explosion genuinely scared the shit out of me.
Me too #notmoreexplosions
I bet that you made all whole this just to say "Never go to France". Ohh, classic Lindy. Greetings from Serbia! And this is way more complicated!
as a Fenchman, I agree, on both counts :-)
I'm from an ex-yugoslav country and i must say the narrative I was fed was quite different. I guess winners really do write the history. Great video, would love to hear more on the topic.
Would love to know your version! I to am from the old Jugoslavia.
In Communist Yugolsavia, Tito’s Vodka drinks you!
To the croatians reading this: you are not your ancestors and should not be condemned for their crimes. However, if you want to move on, don't let marko perkovic thompson sing songs like "jasenovac i gradiska stara, to je kuca maksovih mesara" and then deny that it happened or that it's an exaggeration. For non croats, the lyrics are: jasenovac and gradiska stara, that is the home of the butchers of max" it's been sang by a relatively popular croatian ultra nationalist singer marko perkovic thompson. Those places were extermination camps.
Interesting episode as always :) However, I feel that I must comment on a few things. First, regarding the demands on Trieste. Even before the first world war there was a substantial Slovenian and to some degree Croat population in the areas around Trieste and Gorizia which were later given to Italy. This caused lasting resentment towards the western allies in quite a few areas and also gave Yugoslavia a bone to pick with Italy. A sizeable chunk of my own country was awarded to them without any consideration being given to ethnical boundaries. So these desires weren't entirely baseless. Second, in many areas the ordinary peasants joined the partisans simply because they were the only ones actually fighting the enemy (of course this varied depending on the region as you said), and didn't give much consideration to their political leanings until later in the war. The Germans and Italians weren't exactly »nice« occupiers even without active resistance. Third, regarding the rather rude disappearance of Tito during crucial times. The British had certainly supplied a lot of equipment to the partisans but the only boots on the ground who were likely to contribute to the actual fighting on the ground were the Soviets. Playing nice with them was also a good move considering what they did to anyone who didn't get along with them. There was also the traditional bond between some nations in Yugoslavia and the Russians. Also, fighting even a retreating German army wasn't easy even for better equiped armies, just imagine what it must have been like for the guerilla style fighters in most of the country. From the point of view of my countrymen of the time, not being thrilled to mount large attacks on them is entirely understandable. The Germans would be gone either way, the difference would be in even larger numbers of dead Yugoslav fighters and civilians. Doing what si best for your own people to the detriment of foreigners and playing every side is a trait of all politicins. And despite his many faults, Tito wasn't just a politician in nice uniforms. He did personally command his troops. If one considers events later on, one can see that he also wasn't a mere puppet of Stalin. At the end of the war, the country was almost entirely self-liberated in contrast with other formerly occupied countries, which I believe to be an amazing achievement for our people, no matter their political views. I had hoped you would focus a bit less on the British side of the situation in Yugoslavia and talked more about the events or battles in the country itself but I guess that is to be expected. Nevertheless, it was nice see our part of the continent mentioned again.
All fair points, some of which I think I did touch on. When talking unscripted for this long, it always happens that I miss out things that I meant to say. For example, the Cetniks were the first people to liberate a European city, and they achieved this quite early on. Yes, the story is told from the British POV, but I think I make my reasons clear. It is one way to give the story some narrative and coherence. Trying to tell the story from the point of view of all the competing factions would be beyond me.
@@lindybeige this would be beyond everyone, because thing where a bit more complicated it seems ;)
@@lindybeige Thank you for your reply. Your style of unscripted narration is precisely why many of us enjoy this channel so much. It shows genuine interest in the subject matter and it feels much more like a conversation and casual food for thought instead of a spoonfeeding of information. Any unplanned omissions are also as understandable as they would be in an actual conversation when you have to think on your feet. The contents of this particular video unfortunately still play a big and nasty role in the politics and social divisions of the countries of former Yugoslavia and it takes a well adjusted mind to even attempt to make a video on it of such lenght. Surprisingly it apparently hasn't led to a war of words which normaly results in the comments section from people residing in this still smoldering powder keg of Europe.
And while I'm on the subject I might mention something else as well. Whenever I'm watching your or someone elses videos and I come across something I do not agree with, I am reminded of a video you did some time ago in which you had what I belive were some newspapers with crossed out articles and challenge myself to simply listen to what is being said and try to think about how it impacts my view on the subject. So you do leave a lasting impression on your audience. Perhaps things would be different here if more of my Balkan brothers and sisters took the same advice more often.
well said Klemen, thank you.
@@lindybeige Četniks "liberated" first European city (Loznica) for a week or two. Also, just after that they collaborated with Tito's serbian partisans in the bigger revolt that liberated most of the west Serbia where they constituted "Užička republika" or Republic of Užice. Germans crushed the rebellion soon after, established notorious "100 for 1" rule where they randomly picked and executed 100 people for one killed German and 50 for one wounded (most notoriously being Kragujevac massacre). After that, partisans fled to hills of Bosnia, četniks made deal with Serbian provisional occupation government (Nedić) to maintain peace in Serbia, and continued their operations in italian occupied territories, trying to save Serbians from being exterminated by NDH supported forces.
"You know what they say.. never go to france." the delivery was gold
dumb anti-French bigotry. the French have a more impressive military history than Britain.
12 years of hard work and you’ve finally done it. Congratulations on 1 million subscribers
It’s actually more complicated than that.
Mr. Numbers How?
It just is. 1:25
There are few people on this mostly spherical planet of ours that can maintain my interest for about one and a half hour of historical ramblings. You are certainly one, Lloyd. Thank you.
Full story of the bridge (it is very cursory explained): It happened in first weeks of December 1943, it was just an excuse to break with Mihailovic, as Churcil announced on Tehran Conference (last week of November 1943) that will support partisans. Brits knew for long that Mihalovic's commanders were collaborating with Italians. Even drunk Mihailovic once admitted it in front of British liaison officer Colonel William Bailey, saying that Italians were better allies than Brits, and that his main foes are partisans (and ustashes). After Mihailovic was beaten by partisans in western parts of Yugoslavia in first half of 1943, he retreated back to Serbia where there weren't Italians, but Germans. Mihalovic needed supplies to fight partisans, so he turned to Germans. British (thanks to Ultra) soon find out that. Mihailovic was obligated to fight partisans and GUARD bridges from partisans and British miners. So, knowing that Mihailovic would not destroy an insignificant bridge in given deadline, British would have final proof that they made good decision.
"I love Donald Duck, me." -also Winston Churchill. Maybe.
Allegedly.
About the partisan tanks, they captured some from Italians in 1943 and used them, some lasted to 1944. Partisans sent troops to Italy for armor training, they were formed into First Armored Brigade in July 1944, equipped with Stuart tanks and AEC armored cars. Second Armored Brigade was formed in March 1945 with T-34 tanks.
So, what you're saying is that actually it was a bit more complicated than that?
@@lindybeige Yes, except they're providing the information instead of just saying that it's a bit more complicated than that. One of the things that justifies having a comment section in the first place.
My grandfather was a partisan tank commander. He was first conscripted into Italian army and stationed in Southern Italy and northern Africa, after Italian capitulation he was trained by the English and became a member of 1. tank brigade of Prekomorske brigade NOVJ (there were five oversea brigades). His brigade was transported from southern Italy to island of Vis and next to mainland Yugoslavia, they participated in liberation of Trst (Trieste). He then visited his own village with his tank.
@@lindybeige of course, even the Chetniks used tanks in early 1941, mostly french Renaulr R35 and Somua S40 tanks captured by the Germans in France.
My grandfather was Croatian and fought for Tito's partisans. After the war, and having earned a number of medals for bravery, he resigned from the communist party; quite a different route from so many ambitious politicians.
Smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu.
Smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu
Smrt fašizmu, svoboda narodu
Your grandfather was a smart man.
My Grandmother was a serbian peasant woman who was force-married to the poorest man in one of the poorest regions of the country. Her husband was a heavy drinker who just managed to pregnate her ten times and then die of a lung infection, leaving her to raise the children alone with one cow, some acres of corn and about 30 chicken. In typical serbian stubbornness, she always kept beeing loyal to the King although she had no benefit of it whatsoever. My mother - her daughter - on the other hand was of the first generation of girls in that region that had a chance to go to school, get a job and marry a man of her own choice (eventually, she went to switzerland where she met my father). People might think about the former SFRJ whatever they like, but without Tito my Mother would have had to endure the same medeaval life as my grandmother did.
Smrt fašizmu, sloboda narodu brate!
Same story with my grandfather on mum's side. Plus his brother was a bona fide national hero and much beloved veterinarian among partisans, there is still a street named after him (his bust at Veterinarian faculty was removed after last war, cunts). Coming from a wealthy family, well educated, but had impossible father and wanted nothing to do with him, so they joined Communist Party before the war, fought in the war, grand-uncle (the hero) died hero's death, grandpa spent some time in German prison, somehow got released, fled to the forest... Anyway, he also resigned from the Communist party ("his cell was made up of idiots"), but it wasn't a big deal - he kept working at his nice job, provided for his family, and he wasn't interested in being a politician anyway.
Smrt fašizmu - sloboda narodu!
4:15 Partisans were mostly Serbian as well.
15:27 It's a bit more complicated. Parliament was suspended because of murder in Parliament. Nationalistic tensions were too high, he had to suspend it to try to work on common Yugoslavian identity.
18:55 Yugoslavia was invaded because of coup, you reversed the order of events.
Serb started entering partisan army as it became obvious that germans were about to lose the war. Many kept their fascist herritage until 1991 when they thought they were powerfull enough to start another war. Now we see how everything comes together. Serb nation is still being governed by fascists.
@@Danfrolujo According to you, it was obvious Germans were about to lose the war in 1941.
Serbs made absolute majority in partisan movement throughout the war.
@@MrBatica123 S time da je Srba duplo više od ostalih naroda Jugoslavije bilo bi čudno da nisu većina. No "apsolutna" većina, kako si naveo nije bila. Nažalost bilo je puno Hrvata u partizanima....
@@Danfrolujo So the Serbs who where occupied and survived the crimes committed by the Axis were a minority in the partisans until the Battle of Kursk in 1943, while other peoples who were originally on the side of the Nazis made up the majority of the partisans at the beginning. Then, after the war, those fascist Serbs progressed through the Yugoslav communist system (where it was explicitly looked at who was a member of which army) in order to eventually destroy that same Yugoslavia 🤔
Damn you Serbs, you destroyed the country we fought against.
@@herzog1857 Which crimes? Serb nation has but only mounted the numbers of the WW2 victims on their side. See Jasenovac camp, according to serb sources 750.000 - 3.000.000 serbs were killed in that camp. Now any victim is one to much, but licitating the numbers in such a way is nothing but a shame. Anyway, when one seeks the real answers on history of Balkans, serb archives are the ones filled with lies and exaggerations. Even now Srbia is being ruled by a goverment which originially roots from fascistoid.and clerical corner. It is the worst part of Europe to find your self in and it will never change.
So the English supported the Communists and then regretted it. LOL
Croat here, just clicking on the video: this should be interesting XD
It`s a BIT more complicated than that!
Iskreno kul je što ga uopšte zanima ova tema, većina zapadnjaka bude u fazonu “ohh the Balkans are so messy loool yeah I love history so much!!1”. Svaka čast za entuzijazam, ako ništa drugo, pogotovo jer mu je kanal stvarno kvalitetan.
O da, svaka mu cast! Oduvijek je imao siroki raspon tema, ali me s ovime bas ugodno iznenadio, pogotovo s obziorm na to da nas kraj nije bio dio glavnog teatra. Jebemu, uvijek mi dodje zao kad vidim koliko danas ima interesa na internetu za povijest, a nitko da se primi Balkana :D. Ima prica da se useres(pardon my french). A valjda smo komplicirani :D.
@@MrSmileyZ Hey, look who's here! Good to meet you, my Serbian friend xD
@@enderman_666 Lindybeige je genijalan, gledam ga već par godina.
Jako mi je drago da ga interesiraju ove teme i da ne prilazi s predrasudama temi kao što naši učitelji i profesori rade.
Knjige iz povijesti su nam u osnovnoj i srednoj školi mijenjale opise cijelo vrijeme (ovisno o tome koja je stranka bila na vrhu vlade). Tako da mi je jako lijepo vidjet na internetu ljude koji gledaju sa neutralnog stajališta našu povijest.
That is the most understated 1M subscriber announcement that I have ever seen.
He’s British. Not sure if you knew.
I've been in the Italian Army for 2 and a half years, 2011/2013. We were still using the grenades you mentioned (SRCM-35) for training and they were quite weird. We were supposed to throw them in a very specific fashion, because we had to make sure they would form a "catapult-like" trajectory. This is due to their design, as they have a metal cap functioning as a safety that can only be removed mid-air if enough air passes through it. You could remove the cap before you threw them, but then you'd have a very unstable and dangerous explosive device in your hands. Apparently that was the only way our army could use them on the soft terrain of the african desert and the snowy steppes of Russia to make sure they would actually go off. So yes, if you ever wondered if it would be possible to overengineer a handgrenade, the answer is yes.
I'd bet whoever owned whatever factory made the stupid things was related to somebody important. Same story as the Air Force's magical $650 screwdrivers.
Is there anywhere I can try to contact Italian ww2 veterans that served in occupied Yugoslavia 1941-43? I am doing a research project on eyewitness testimonies of ww2 in Yugoslavia. There might still be one or 2 veterans born around 1923-1925 still alive.
There's a book by a Matteo Cornelius Sullivan, "Interviste agli ultimi reduci della seconda guerra mondiale". You might find a few names there.
@@lucacolombo7603 Thanks, I might try to contact the author directly.
@@amir_hetsroni_fan_club3798 excellent, please let me know if you happen to hear from him
I refuse to believe that a man with such well-controlled and sensible hair has trouble sleeping.
My dad once showed me my grandpas medal and i went "what die he get that for?" my father just said
"He got that for killing Nazis in yugoslavia"
Oh...... Its more complicated than that isn't it?
I mean I don't need more information than "killing nazies". Heck I'll give you a medal for doing that.
The Balkans?
Complicated?
Neveerrrr...
/s
Being ignorant of the general mess the Balkans are, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised by the introduction of this video. I was like "...so it's a clusterfuck, got it".
The fact that people are so fucking stupid nowadays that you ALWAYS HAVE to put the /s /j /jk /k and other things or else they're all gonna be like "WHAT YuO tAlKinG abOurT toutWas NoThinG lIkE tHaT1!1!!111!1!"
@@filipmarkovic9611 It's nothing new, to be fair. but I resent it too.
@@Mr_Lo_ Yeah
Actually it was a bit more complicated than that!
Came here to check if that comment was made. I was sorely disappointed until I found this.
Reportedly, it was Fitzroy Maclean who first taught me some "polite naughty" words in English. Also, I pulled his moustache. Korčula connection, summer family acquaintances. I don't know if you know, Maclean was the only foreigner who owned any property in Yugoslavia - and it's a historic house with a beach, orchard, garden and all the trimmings in Korčula (town) on Korčula (island). Tito practically gifted it to Maclean, thou perhaps not on paper. I forgot the story, last time I talked about it was 30-35 years ago.
*OK, now for some information from the other side* : Lloyd, you're more unfair to Tito than you need to be, and it was even more complicated than you think. Instead of just reading Eastern Approaches, you could've read some of the books Sir Fitzroy wrote about Tito himself. At least, check his bibliography. He understood that Tito wasn't fighting the war just to help the British, but also had to consider interests of his country - according to his vision, of course. Perhaps he didn't want to be yet another foreign power's puppet, huh?
And yes, not only did Tito allow Stalin to enter YU and help clear the Germans, he made Stalin sign the document that once the war is over Red Army will vacate Yugoslavia. That came in handy later. Especially considering that Tito completely broke up with Stalin and Soviet Union in 1948, getting us rid of any such influence (Tito outmanoeuvred Stalin whenever they clashed). So, Yugoslavia didn't end up behind iron curtain, which was also lucky for people in Yugoslavia. If we had to have communist government, my, did we win the lottery with Tito! I'm sorry you didn't get to visit any country behind Iron Curtain during Cold War and then come to Yugoslavia to appreciate the difference.
Furthermore, unlike De Gaulle and the French Resistance, hid did his fair share of work and fighting, but still in his speeches about the war, his memoirs etc. never forgot to give credit to the British (and interestingly, only the British) for winning the war.
Finally, so this doesn't turn into a full-blown essay - the uniforms Tito's army had worn weren't Soviet, but Yugoslavian communist. Perhaps they looked the same to Maclean, but they weren't.
Yes, by the time I was getting to the end, I was going hoarse and needed to wind things up. You are right that Tito's Jugoslavia was not fully under the thumb of the CCCP. By the standards of communist dictators, he was a good one, but it is a very low bar.
@@lindybeige After 1948, there was a complete divide between CCCP and YU. Even in 1980s, when the relations mellowed, Soviet Union wouldn't recognise Yugoslavia as a communist country. I remember I had to buy stamps for "capitalist countries" to send some postcards from Moscow to Yugoslavia and it turned into something of a scene. I tried to explain that Yugoslavia IS a communist country, but the clerk at post office was adamant - "Nyet! Kapitalyst! Says so in the book!"
Thats a weird name. Two surnames. Son of Roy and Son of Lean. Fitzroy Maclean. Norman and Gaelic.
Churchill was a total reactionary, who would've maneuvered to re-instate the monarchy. Look at what happened to Greece. Tito did exactly the right thing.
@@billwebster5136 Exactly!
The entirety of the Yugoslav wars can be summed up with "it was more complicated than that".
Lloyd making excuses for Chetnik collaborationists is very distressing. "Maybe they were just waiting for better timing or they saw it wasn't in the interest of the nation's peoples." This is the same rationale used by the Quislings, or quite convincingly by Karel Čurda (who was executed soon after the war) and the Vichy French, including the French Indochinese colonial government who (after briefly fighting the Japanese) saw their airfields used to stage IJA air attacks on British troops in Malay. Surely if Lindy can see Mihailović's POV he can excuse and even support the French assisting in the bombing of British troops? How is the argument substantively different?
It is a tenuous argument at best and perhaps a ridiculous one to equate the Chetnik refusal to destroy a military target with Tito's reluctance to but eventual support of a major military operation considering one, the partisans did participate in Rat Week and two, if things went wrong they would be on the sharp end of the bayonets.
Lloyd is at heart a rationalist who believes in an objective reality but he is also a right wing libertarian and we see the conflict of those natures on full display here.
Finally, apropos nothing (or not much) there certainly should be gun power weapons in FRPGs.
Uuu..* grabs popcorn * ..i am from Croatia,when this times are mentioned oftentimes all hell brakes loose in conversations. Many politicians are still looking at that history and building platforms based on who was "partizan" ( Tito's side ) and who "ustaša" ( Pavelić's side ) ... xD And also every side has their version of hiatory.
And the point of that is...?
@@ursa_margo haha do you just go around and spam "and the point is?" under everything? Cus if you do I must say that that's some first grade trolling
Every side has their own version, but there is also always a true version
@wakenbaker-uk Croatia subreddit is huge for its population and even though it represents less nationalist, younger and more educated part of the population - any attempt to talk about crimes is swiftly downvoted. Local Nazi imagery used by groups or seen on buildings or partisan monuments is always excused in some historical or environmental way. "It's just some kids lol" Destruction of thousands of partisan monuments in the 90s is always buried and hidden.
Croatia and all of Balkans have some brilliant and capable people but they are ignored or silenced by uneducated majority that's less and less willing to admit any wrongdoing on part of their nation.
@@miroslavpavlovic2365 Why would you not destroy the monuments of someone who oppressed your people for 40-50 years? Hitler and Stalin were both Dictators, the only difference is that one of them won. But they both go to hell for all I care. The same goes for Tito and Pavelić. The fact you seem to see the destruction of communist monuments (in times when they were not old or held a historical value) as something ideologically bad is no different from someone complaining about Nazi monuments being taken down.
I was nodding off just like in history class, when all of a sudden I was awake. 18:55
I fell off my seat.
You want a wake-up? a9thf92vfio?t=4062 That'll wake you up. No shark attack, I promise you.
@@Sableagle i'm left wondering what this means...
I had an ear to ear grin after Lindy turned around from setting up his 1mil subscriber Play Button. Been steady watching him when he had only around 250k.
It’s the same feeling of satisfaction that u get watching a good friend succeed in life
Thank you!
@@lindybeige Same here! I've been watching you for years.
Congratulations!
Being Serbian myself, all my wishes came true when Lloyd decided to take on this topic very near and dear to me. Starting from stories my grandparents used to tell me, going through war movies about the partisans and battles on the Neretva or Sutjeska river (and i think that one of those movies was actually nominated for an oscar in 1969.). And what went down during WWII shaped pretty much the next 50-60 years in these parts and is still effecting my people and my neighbors (croats, bosnians etc.) and of course the still very alive in some parts YUGO-NOSTALGIA. Great job describing a VERY VERY VERY complicated and touchy topic! I of course have my opinion on the whole problem of yugoslavia, and of course its tragic breakup :(
There are also a couple of mistakes in the spelling or pronouncing of names and surnames but that`s completely understandable. You are forgiven
Excellent video, Tito was the glue that kept everyone in place you can say, and it showed after his death, 7 minorities and 3 religions decided to kick it off when he was no longer there.
I know which Forgotten Weapons playlist I'm watching after this...
As a Croatian who's great grandfathers fought on opposite sides ( One was the bodyguard of Ante Pavelic and one was a Partizan)
I'm so happy that you made this to speak about a front in WW2 that many people don't even know about.
Well, in the Balkan we sure as hell know about it.
It's a frequent topic in pre-election times. ;)
Similar to me. My parents are from Lika. Moms side was cetniks (we are cousins of Djuic) and fathers side partizans whose best friends were 2 croats.
i m from West Herzegovina, one uncle was Partisan spy, otherone Ustashe... weird times indeed..!
It`s a BIT more complicated than that!
My great grandfathers did the same... xD
Actually Lindy, it was more complicated than that 😎
18:56 fun fact. A few daya after that pact was signed(27.3.1941) , thousends of people in Belgrade went on a protest, saying
"Bolje rat nego pakt, bolje grob nego rob", witch basically means wed rather die than be with them. A few days Belgrade was bombed, I think iz was 6 of the april. Anyway pretty good video.
zar nije bolje grob nego rob?
Who organized the protests? Aaaah yes the British secret service. One of the now popular “colored” revolutions.
My mother told me that story. Wow, reading that phrase takes me hack. She told me how excited people were to fight Hitler, and then they were immediately crushed.
She was just finishing law school, but never got to pass the bar because Hitler rolled in and shut everything down.
Wonderful Lindy!
Admiral Sir Walter Henry (Titch) Cowan, 1st Baronet, KCB, DSO & Bar, MVO (11 June 1871 - 14 February 1956)
deserves his own episode …. don’t you think?…
18:05 - If more than three powers sign up to a tripartite pact, surely that means it is no longer tripartite?
I think you sign up to be underneath the tripartite.
It’s a core of three countries and others revolving around it, an Axis if you will 🤔
it may have been a little more complex than that..
Alright, I've stopped the video at 6:44 and I'm making a prediction. I predict I'm going to hear a detailed explanation of how everything that happened in Yugoslavia in WWII happened because of the British, was organized and led by the British, and ultimately there is no point in talking about Yugoslavia unless you talk about the British in Yugoslavia.
Actually, it was a bit more complicate than that.
Ohhhhh he's done you, son.
@@lindybeige, I understand some locals wanted to pitch in a little.
jolly good sports really..
Lindybeige
Everyone hates the French !!!
Without a doubt , all of the various regional , ethnic, religious, and political subgroups in the Balkans would have enthusiastically fought each other all by themselves , without any outside encouragement .
But indeed it was British influence that caused in never-ending internal conflicts to have some degree of effect on the larger World War .
This is incredible timing! Not 24 hours ago I was interviewing one of my co-workers about what what life was like following the breakup of Yugoslavia. After the interview I spent several hours reading Yugoslavia history, and got pretty overwhelmed with how complicated some parts are.
And you'd likely have to read up for several more hours from various wildly differing sources to get just a glimpse of how complicated it actually was... :)
@@MravacKid Right? The last time I delved into something this convoluted was when I was studying World War One. Even after a year, I only vaguely have it down.
You could break it down to "everyone was pissed off by everyone else" :P Suits WWI and the balkan :P
At 1.27 min, You are saying that war is very good for communism... I am sorry but who was and is the biggest beneficiary of the war? Isn't it the war industrial complex? I love the but of history you are sharing but it is very heavily filtered through the old time British imperialist ideology. I am not sure if you are aware of it or is it just an unintentional reflex?
even the nazis were horrified by atrocities committed by ustaše. so were ustaše fascist? no, they were much much worse. and no, they did not kill civilians only in retribution. they killed civilians simply for being Serbs or Jews or... I appreciate your effort, but much more is needed to do this topic justice
Lindybeige saying "Based": 33:04
Lmao
Based? Based on what?
@@milancealeksimovic4650 based
@@milancealeksimovic4650 Based on basedness.
The way he said it was so casual lol
Montenegrin and a long time fan here: It was a bit more complicated than that.
Tito did not screw over the Brits and the West while siding with the East, he used and then screwed over both sides in favor of national pride and in favor of trying to make a truly sovereign state. He tried to solve the problem you mentioned in the beginning of this video.
Also, while I understand that it's very hard for a westerner (or for anyone, really) to say anything good about communism, Tito is still praised in most of our (now separate, and non communist) countries, in spite of being a dictator. The reason for that is because he can be described as a benevolent dictator. He decentralized a lot of his own power, supported economic reforms when needed, and most importantly (for this part of the world), did his best to unite all the different nationalities and keep peace under "Brotherhood and unity".
Of course, to be fair, no communist dictatorship can be without a couple of massacres, so there's that as well.
To sum it up, because this comment is already ridiculous, I think it's very hard for a foreigner to understand Balkan history and decisions, and nearly impossible to understand why communism (at least under Tito), actually (kind of, sort of) worked here. Nonetheless, I really enjoy your perception of the whole ordeal, and would love to hear more! If you felt this was complicated, good luck understanding and explaining the 90s lol.
"no dictatorship can be without a couple of massacres, so there's that as well."
Fixed this for you ;)
@@Seelenschmiede A fair fix on your part!
Still, to further the point a little bit, taking the past of this region into account, Tito was actually an improvement in many ways. I can't help it but have a feeling that Lindy took personal offense in Tito's decision to turn his back to the Brits, which is why I tried to emphasize that he eventually "turned his back" to the other side as well. He was even one of the initiators of the Non-Aligned Movement.
Oh, it truly was a lot more complicated than that lol. So much more to say and clarify.
One gruesome example of the complexity would be that, DURING THE GOD DAMN WAR, both Chetniks and Partisans sometimes massacred civilians OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY for various reasons (main reason being those civilians helping the other group in some way, making them traitors in the eyes of the other group), which is pretty insane if you ask me. Which basically sparked a discussion TO THIS DAY of "who was good and who was bad" among the common folk, meaning WHO KILLED LESS CIVILIANS.
Crazy stuff let me tell you. War's god damn ugly, and that seems especially true for our region. Partly why people still like Tito. He somewhat reconciled the unreconcilable, at least for a little while.
I think every discussion on the Balkans can be replied to with '..was a bit more complicated than that'
@@besterich277 it easy to talk with glances of todays view but again it Westerners and others cant get a knowlage of Balkan history and decisions because they never experienced those levels of brutality in wars.
90's are not that complicated at all. Serb nationalism was the driving force and cause of the events.
Actually it was more complicated than that.
In fact it was even more complicated than the level of complexity you're thinking of.
1:12:00 Americans were sending expired pork to Muslim cities Bosnia, which people took as a funny joke. There is a memorial to that. xD
@joanne chon You just didn't get the joke. It's rather not only about date of expiration, but about pork. Muslims don't eat pork. Get it?
I don't find it funny. 😑
Regarding surprise about Muslim SS, it baffles me every single time how narrow-minded people are about politics. Hitler liked Islam. Why wouldn't he? "Oh because he was a nationalist sooo eee clearly he didn't like other nations and other religions, right? ooga booga" FFS Being a nationalist means the most important value in his politics was the good of his nation. The end. This doesn't mean the person has got to hate every other nation; otherwise how would he ally Italy and Japan? Also, he hated Christianity and regarded it as detrimental to his nation and persecuted and murdered significant Christian figures. While he sympathised Islam. There were SS sections formed of German Muslims.
Funny thing about Fitzroy Maclean: after the war Tito and the Party delayed a law banning foreigners from owning land in Yugoslavia just long enough for him to buy a villa in the Croatian isles
Also, King Aleksandar disbanded the parliament and set up the dictatorship after a few years of legislative gridlock and one MP shooting another to death.
Just clicked off a another Lindybeige video for this video
It better be worth it. Few things rank higher than Lindybeige videos, even Lindybeige videos!
you crossed the streams!
you've created a paradox!
Loving this video. It was extremely interesting, as someone who grew up (well, the first 10 years of my life in this country) to see this part of the history of world war 2 from an outside perspective, and then contrasted with how it was thought here before the collapse and then again in contrast after the collapse. But what i found most interesting of all, was how the cold war, at the very least the roots of it, were already in place by 1943. BTW this back-and-forth with the East and the West didn't stop in 1945. Yugoslavia would dance around the fence until the end of the cold war, possibly acting as a buffer between the two sides, trying to take advantage from both as much as possible.
Romania did the same thing, courting the USSR while refusing to become a part of the soviet union.
40:38 "The bagpipes is a form of ranged weapon." Absolutely barbaric.
Serbian here. This is a good start to learn about Yugoslavia
HOI4 players be like...’heavy breathing’
Yugo banned
I have been watching this channel for twelve fucking years and it feels good to finally be able to say, congratulations on a million subs Lloyd. You deserve it.
I am a simple man. I see lindy has uploaded, I stop the delicate brain surgery I am doing and start watching a hour and a half long rant about the balkans.
In all honesty, I don't think you should have a RUclips enabled device in the same room where you are doing brain surgery, delicate or otherwise.
@@SilverMe2004 im ok with it. i mean, they probably need it for tutorials, etc.
Patient, waking up: “why are all my dreams about WW2 Yugoslavia?”
that temporal loobe will keep :-)
It is not complicated, all people on Balkan enjoy good brawl, and whenever someone screams war, we all take our howitzers and machine guns from garages and start shelling our neighbors. xD Šala mala (možda). :D
That explosion scared the shit out of me
I appreciate lindy’s subtle flex at the start
Fitzroy McClean's 'Eastern Approaches' has a most excellent portrait 'photo of him in "An enormous fur hat".
Šubara
which page is it on? or are you referring to the front cover one?
McClean who a biography of Tito with lots of photos.
When McClean told Churchill about Tito's communism Churchill is supposed to have replied 'you're not going to live there after the war'. Tito did actually let the McClean family buy a house in Kortula.
@@rogerhudson9732 - artillery Clinton said something similar.
@@gitfoad8032 to who?
The funny thing is, Tito was not quite loved by Soviets too, as he has always been playing his own game. Similar one to the official Moscow one, but his own nonetheless. And there were a lot of tension between him and Moscow in post-war period.
This is true i remember learning about that as a kid.
Tito was as devious as Hell - played the West, played Stalin, played everyone. I’m not a fan of his at all, but one must give it to him - the guy knew how to manipulate, sell bullshit, and live like a King.
That explosion at 18:55 was totally unexpected 10/10
Jeez I nearly shat myself.
ahhhh bugger spoiler
No one expects the {Spanish Inquisition} communist dictatorship, (to suck quite as bad as it do.)
That was one spicy meatball!
The "Yugoslavia" idea was inspired by the unification of Italy and Germany, despite them being under seperate powers and spheres of influence of hundreds of years too.
It's like trying to unite USA, Australia and the UK.
@@majormajorasic bullshit, its no worse of an idea than USA that has 50 different countries with one government. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't have worked. But now unfortunately its too late....
I love how you changed the play button as a subtle way to Address getting one million subscribers.
21:59 Yes Lloyd the Soviets correctly recognised the conflict as a war between expansionist imperialist powers (Germany, Britain, France, Japan and later USA) sparked by periods of economic downturn
That fact didnt change after they were attacked by the facist, and therefore anti-communist germans. Imperialist wars over new markets to exploit are hardly unheard of now
35:30 those hand grenades were also called "paradajzovke" because they looked like tomatoes.
And if they go off unexpectedly, you get tomato sauce just everywhere.
I think you missed the critical point that despite being a Communist Tito's partisans tied down ten plus German/Axis divisions during the entirety of the war. These 90,000 odd Axis troops were solely committed to Anti-guerrilla operations in Yugoslavia. I would urge you to read some of the accounts written by partisans who fought for the First Dalmatian
Proletarian Strike Brigade during the unbelievable battles of the Sutjeska (German "Case Black" also a 1973 movie staring Richard Burton as Tito ) and Neretva (German operation "Case White). Furthermore Tito was a staunch opponent to Stalin during WW2 and even more so in the later cold war era.
I think he mentioned 12 divisions being stationed there, sometime around the 10 min mark.
Some even say, he ordered the assassination of Stalin after Stalin tried several time to assassinate him.
Ther is even a famous quote of his on this matter where he writes a letter of warning sto Stalin
to stop sending assassins because if he deosn't he will only have to send one...
"They took him to Rome..uh... Look! A marble thing!" Brilliant :D
Yo, Lindy.
Are you or were you at some point a history teacher? Because my favorite history teacher had these exact kind of ranty lectures packed full of information that you just automatically soaked up.
Definitely some variety of teacher. If not professionally then genetically.
"packed full of information", but not so much so that you didn't want to keep learning more.
Isn't he a dance teacher?_?
@@Orinslayer If I'm remembering right, he does have a degree in archeology.
At some point or other he did teach archeology at a university, but I don't remember if he ever mentioned which uni. He mentions it in an older video I ran across when binging a while back.
The reason Tito didn't care and Mihailović did care about 100 civilians for 1 german soldier was because the civilians were Serbs, not Croats or Slovenes
A Brit calling American food bad is the the most laughable opinion you've ever espoused.
OK, I usually really like your content... But after the first 15 or so minutes of this video, I can honestly say your comprehension of this subject is quite superficial and poor, and also somewhat biased (I guess due to literature&sources you've based this on). And I'm not even talking about the WW2 stuff. Now, I get it. It is complicated... but no more so than the history of other parts of Europe or let's say the Caucasus. Trying to talk about WW2 in Yugoslavia - a conflict that was not just an Axis invasion and occupation, but also a civil war on many levels and between different participants, religious war, ideological war etc without at least some sort of thought-out and cohesive introduction is just plain wrong. Sorry.