The Immoral Teachings Of Christianity
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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The Immoral Teachings Of Christianity - Christopher Hitchens @ FreedomFest (Part 5).
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Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens go at it again at the 2008 Freedom Fest as the "Main Event".
FreedomFest is an annual festival where "free minds meet" to celebrate "great books, great ideas, and great thinkers" in an open-minded society. It is independent, non-partisan, and not affiliated with any organization or think tank.
Founded and produced by Mark Skousen, since 2002, FreedomFest invites the "best and the brightest" from around the world to talk, strategize, socialize, and celebrate liberty. FreedomFest is open to all and is purely egalitarian, where speakers, attendees, and exhibitors are treated as equals.
www.freedomfest...
Christopher Hitchens (born 1949) is an author, journalist and literary critic. Currently living in Washington, D.C., he has been a columnist at Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, World Affairs, The Nation, Slate, Free Inquiry, and a variety of other media outlets. Hitchens is also a political observer, whose books - the latest being "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" - have made him a staple of talk shows and lecture circuits.
In 2009 Hitchens was listed by Forbes magazine as one of the "25 most influential liberals in U.S. media." The same article noted, though, that he would "likely be aghast to find himself on this list" and that he "styles himself a radical", not a liberal.
www.hitchensweb...
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Cannot fault this logic. May this form of common sense grow and grow with the passing of the ages.
What is your book on how to grow common sense?
@@prophettoatheists8057 Never found one. When I see it I recognise it. It could be an action or words.
This man was a fine wine which the religious will never appreciate .
Not true.I am a CATHOLIC and love to watch his videos.
Whereas I'm an agnostic and I think he's a bit of a twat. His use of CS Lewis is a bit of a straw man. I don't think Jesus was the son of god - I'm not even certain he existed. But I don't think his philosophy is immoral, quite the contrary. His teaching was to forgive and his example represents redemption. So far as I'm concerned [and it really doesn't matter from a philosophical perspective because good actions should not be motivated by reward according to Christ] that redemption is about virtuous living and the 'Kingdom of Heaven' being the earthly life rather than some assumed alternative post-existence. And Jesus is reported to have said more or less that.
Goran: As Hitchens himself would say, I am happy for your chains. But you must keep me out of it. #ReligionIsPoison
@Tarkus yet Hitchens himself as an evangelical atheist was shackled by his need for certainty. In the face of infinity the only logical position is to say not only that we do not know, but that we can’t know. To disbelieve in something you need to have a definition of that thing. I’m happy to say I don’t believe in the tooth fairy as a real thing (although I must have a concept of it i lend some ownership to. But the infinite? I can’t begin to say - and neither can Hitchens or Dawkins although they are curiously reluctant to concede it. A fear of a Rumsfeldian unknown unknown, which is a somewhat emotionally immature standpoint at best.
@@ChrisWilliams-nf8kl He never strawman-ed C.S. Lewis,he always mentioned that he agreed with him to some extent,but didn't with the conclusion.Because Lewis concluded that Jesus is the son of God,and Christopher thought that he isn't the son of God,therefore Lewis' alternative of him being a lunatic,or an evil man, etc. hold up.
Christ threatens those who don't follow him with hellfire,and pretends to save people from what he himself would inflict upon them. And his central teaching is that you should take no thought for tomorrow,just follow him. Also that the responsibilities of individuals can be thrown on someone else, when personal responsibility is central to even ordinary morality. And he forgives sins inflicted upon others,as though they were inflicted on himself.
Who cares if the murdered father's child doesn't want to forgive the murderer,Jesus already did,even before he committed it.This is a wicked belief.
Hitchens was such a hero to the free-thinkers. Most atheists (myself included) generally admitted that "if god was real, that would be nice" but he was one of the first to be very vocal about the complete opposite.
More than that, he was an important person to the world. His atheism era may have been his final bow, but it was merely the final act in a long and diverse production that spanned decades.
Hitchens was a god to the atheist. We all desire and reach out for a god.
@@prophettoatheists8057 pssst... your ignorance is showing. Atheist don't think like you do. I have no god. I seek no god. There is no place for god in the universe. Please don't project your childish thinking onto atheists. You only expose your ignorance.
It feels good to be alive in this era where religion marches slowly towards its inevitable death.
Been said before...
HAHAHA! You've got to be kidding! Jesus is alive. He's healed me from sickness that the doctors couldn't. 🤣
That sort of "religion" will never pass away!
@@wayfarer1101 I don't think you're completely sane.
@@lucmeeussen9714 Wait and see. 🙂
way Farer: Unfortunately, religion will never pass away. You, however, is another matter. #TimeIsAFlatCircle
Oh my goodness! What did I just hear! That was WOW. I’m numb now.
Beautifully composed.
I used to be a Christian. I can’t go back now. Just because of points like these that tear me apart.
I can’t even share these videos with my parents because they are old now and learning all this now will be shocking and physically disturbing for them; I cannot risk it.
@@reghty You make assumptions : ) Naat good, my friend! Who said I made up my mind from just 1 video : ) ?
It's a very dangerous topic for me to go back to. I get emotionally drained and angry so I like to keep my distance.
How about simply Living, sincerely (as best I could) for 25 years, with my best friend Jesus, and finally about 5 to 6 years of eye opening by beautiful people like Allan Watts, Mr. Hitchens, Sam Harris, Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins.. and for me, the realizations of Mr. U G Krishnamurthy. And awesome Mr. Bart Ehrman..
Several comedians i have seen only on youtube (what a beautiful creation).. King Marcus Aurelius... The list is unending : )
Mainly it was Mr. Allan Watts for me. My god, he knocked me out!
The one thing I dislike most in this life is being fooled.
And have you seen the first matrix movie? Oh powerful imagery! Especially when Keanu unplugs himself from the system with that pipe his head was connected to. Ufff!
But I've also realized that for many of us peace and joy has been only through belief, and I believe that this is cool too. Whatever helps us live, why not!
Have you seen the Hindi movie OMG? About a man who sues God in court. I'm sure they have subtitles for it.
After a convincing argument, so he thinks, he sees a crowd worshipping a statue of Him? And he's trying to bring it to the ground.
Cheers, my guy : )
@@johnybrokeit you were never a Christian. God says in the bible he has NEVER lost of of his sheep. You are obviously lost so you were never one of his. God also says we all serve one master, either God or satan and yiu are obviously not serving God so guess who you are serving?
“Until we outgrow this nonsense, we have no chance of emancipating ourselves.“ ~Christopher Hitchens
I emphatically agree.
Well, when Christopher Hitchens died, he emancipating himself straight to Hell.
@@George040270 Well that's an articulate response! Muppet!
The nonsense is atheism. Atheism has NO moral teachings.
No one has written a code of morals for atheists to follow.
@@prophettoatheists8057 Contrary to you we don't need some sky wizard to explicitly tell us what is right and threaten us with eternal torture to know that its wrong to rape and murder, we have those things called common sense and basic decency
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
This is one of the best Hitchslaps I've heard to date.
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 I've never had an imaginary friend. It's about time you grew out of yours.
@@harfast10 Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 which god?
Bravo Mr Hitchens.... every time he speaks he drives another nail in that religious coffin.
The nail driving is over then...
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 which god?
@@rightpa The Creator, there is only one true Creator, no name and no form...............falundafa
@@jeffforsythe9514 There is no creator. The universe grew from a seed. I know this to be true as I wrote it on a piece of paper; no one can prove it's wrong, which re-enforces it's truth.
This really is extraordinarily good !! A brilliant man, sorely missed
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514Keep those beliefs to yourself
This debate he did with D'Souza was perhaps the best he did in his life
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 which god?
Well, hopefully we all have that one moment when we do our best in life.
Hitch was so well spoken, and damn if he isn't right about practically all of it. I have learned so much from him. I wish I could thank him
Wish upon a star...So Hitch agreed with you in practically all . Thank yourself for being so right.
In my humble opinion, and for many intellectuals Christopher Hitchens is the foremost modern arbiter of enlightenment and knowledge.
His courageous and well researched work on politics, religion, faith, non-belief, secularism and atheism will forever enshrined him amongst the giants of reason. Oh how much I miss this gentleman. 😢
I guess you will see him in hell
@@SKRooU2 You hâve à vivid imagination, as there is no scientific evidence nor proof for this “hell” you speak of, wether you like it or not, you and I will cease to exist after we die, there’s nothing after.
More and more needed now and ever 🙏.
And yet every time the results of prayer is tested the people who were prayed over had worse outcomes. Otherwise it had no affect on anything. You claim that an action is required that does no one any good. When you get sick do you pray or see a doctor? If a car is coming to hit you do you pray or get out of the way? Yet you insist prayer actually does anything than fool your mind into thinking it works.
Asinine fatuity of vicarious redemption. Paltry logic. How hitch pulls out the perfect revitalizing phrases that refresh us and spare us from cliche and the dead letter🌟🌠🌟🌠🌟🌠🌟🌠🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌠
Bravo! I fully believe in being responsible for my own deeds, good, bad or otherwise!!
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 which god?
Positively brilliant. Absolutely delightful. Hitch was a rare gift I miss greatly.
Makes perfect sense. Wish more people use more sense.
Pretty awesome point.
It's funny that Jesus is able to forgive you for something you did to another person, and he doesn't have to ask whether or not the other person is interested in forgiving you.
Forgiveness is a one way street regardless as to what the other person may be interested in.
God is the Creator and judge of the universe. He can do what he wishes.
Poor guy. He never realized that, here especially, he was arguing with himself. The idea of Biblical vicarious redemption does not include the forgiveness of responsibility, and in particular, moral responsibility. In fact, it emphasizes it.
What a brilliant person !! We missed him a lot.
If Jesus took Men's sins, why are Men still sinning?
Hitch, I miss you !
A voice of reason amongst the religious trolls who don't even understand why they have been given a brain,however small it might be.
Why do you belittle the women who may have a smaller brain than your? The size of the brain does not determine the ability to reason.
Why have you been given a brain?
In truth which we are demanded in commanded to speak as followers I would like to remind you and others who always liked you Mark the teachings of Jesus you are right it's Christianity that falls short it's not the message of Jesus what many Christians seem to forget is when ever he forgave someone he said you are forgiven go and sin no more
"There is nothing after death."
Correct.
I think an appropriate response to his beginning statement would be: "Well Mr. Hitchens, since you claim it is so repulsive and revolting for you to throw your own sin on someone else and have them take it. Then you bear it. You rightly take the penalty for your sin and all that it entails. If you are offended that God, whom you have sinned against will take the penalty of your sin into him so as to redeem you, then you bear the burden and consequence of your sin"
Wow, growing up in a staunch Catholic home with Bishops, Mother Superiors, Monsignors et al, I never thought I ever be able to absorb the hard hitting Mr. Hitchens. My father would tan my hide for even talking to an atheist. I found they dont eat their children for breakfast and can be just as evil or good as Christians. I have found the phrase "eternal salvation" rather odd. Hoping not to be struck down by the Creator of the Universe, I can only ask why does he punish us so when we are told we are made in his image and Likeness. I am afraid that religion is luggage we carry forward since a very distant time.
Finally, someone who is clever enough to listen to the other side as well.
Whatever you choose to follow, please, do not be like your father!
I recommend Kristi Burke and DarkMatter for further unwinding of the chains that bind us. It isn't easy, because it's programmed so deeply, but it is possible to offload quite a bit of this. Wishing you well.
being able to "do what you want" is not freedom, it is slavery. True freedom is union with God.
Great video!! Great great great video!! Astounding video!! I can Beyond gladly say give credit where credit is due!! I wish more of society spoke like this about Christianity and all other religions as well!!!! Emancipation indeed thank you Christopher Hitchens!!!!
We keep insisting our founding fathers chose Christianity to be our guiding light. I dont know but I am glad they built the wall high between politics and religion. In fact, since these televangelists types are tax free they should have to shoulder some good old fashioned god loving kindness towards those who come upon hard times, lose everything to violent weather, etc instead of living in their mansions while they minister to Africa.
Give credit to Christianity for saving Western culture that we are not under an atheist dictator.
@@prophettoatheists8057How is that due to Christianity?
@TheRoss10001 - "All gentiles were condemned since Adam & Eve sinned. But God mercifully sent His son to offer us a free gift." YES! It makes PERFECT sense! I'm a Christian now. Now I get it. Adam and Eve. Got it.
Once again Mr Hitchins,just BRILLIANT
Religion has invented immorality when it invented immoral gods.
WELL SAID!!! I've said almost the same thing for the longest now.
He neglects to mention that Jesus took others' sins upon himself voluntarily. Giving up your life to save others is an act of love. Jesus lived what he preached. I, for one, am impressed by that.
So why was he so terrified on the eve of his crucifixion, begging The Father to deliver him from his fate, and when that didn’t happen, along with getting no response, why did he shout that famous line on the cross that can only be interpreted as him losing his very faith in that moment?
beautifully spoken
Be human! Don't belittle yourself with such a picture of a creature that cannot speak.
Bible says "let God be true, but every man a liar."
Very well put, Mr. Hitchens!
To forgive a man without demanding a change in their conduct is making the grace of God an accomplice to evil- John Hagee (ref. John 8:11- Jesus saving woman from being stoned by religious people)
Hitchens is a genius...RIP good sir.
The problem lies in the fact that Jesus did not "pay the price" for sin. If the price is eternal torture in a burning hell...3 days isn't "paid in full" as christians contend.
RIP, Mr. Hitchens. Thanks for reiterating what I've been saying for years: that people "forgive" themselves via the religious figure without once consulting those who have been harmed by them. How unbelievably selfish and delusional.
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 only if you believe in that stuff. My moral compass - while imperfect - is enough of a guide for me
@@jeffforsythe9514 You Are the one need to wake up and move away from those stupid and negative church, they wordshipping money, women and sex, the church themselves murdering people's whose have believe into magic and they themselves never believe into any gods, try to acting like you actually see god toward any christians and those christians will see you at an psychopath person (meaning even the christians will react to you like you insane).
@@jeffforsythe9514 Your christians church just use money and benefit to buy off people's. I know everything about your church corruptions. You cannot hide from me.
@@jeffforsythe9514 You got brainwashed by christianity and your subconscious is constantly lied itself again your will, you don't have free will in everything.
My fleshly heart would deceive myself, I trust in God and His Word and nothing more.
Hitchens is like polonium. Thanks for posting this!
So nice to see how Hitchens completes his destruction of such superstition in merely 4 minutes, whereas it takes Ham, and others, to take hours and hours to complete their circle reasoning of something that doesn't exist.
Can now and let us reason together says the True God of our Creation.
Only thing i disagree with hitchens as if jesus truly believed he was the son of god from which he had been told from birth he really just tried to be as good as a man as he could and tried to help mankind and even take on the sins of others which shows he was selfless even if he was just a man he was willing to die for other peoples wrongs thats preety impressive as a mortal
Jon Moris: "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" #GodIsADick
No it's stupidity. If he existed and was as the gospels described, he was a good but conflicted man.
He wouldnt have believed it, He certainly would have known it in taking man's form to dwell among him. I found Jesus to be an imperfect figure at times in that He was supposed to be both God and man. It's hard to let things go when you were indoctrinated from childhood but I try to keep its place taking what I can from it.
@TwentyYearDenial Christ arrived to enlighten, not to serve as fodder for a crucifixion. The crucifixion did not need to happen. People made it happen. In their unwillingness to simply listen, learn, and take his message to heart, they opted to cause enormous suffering. In return, and by contrast, Christ demonstrated his enormous capacity for endurance, forgiveness, hope, and transcendence.
As a Christian believer I find this video more amusing than interesting. But I have think about his argument more. So far it is not that convincing.
Kudos to you for actually watching this and thinking of his argument, even if you don't find it convincing. You are much more open minded than the average believer.
I agree. There is not only ample empirical evidence with which to base a belief on (Shroud of Turin has yet to be explained away by any atheist source beyond the credulous "I don't know, but still..."), but the theological necessity for vicarious redemption is entirely over the head of most atheist philosophers that I have witnessed. Rather than understand the Jewish heritage from which the Messiah must emerge, they attack the very foundations of, by all accounts, that very heritage - this includes scapegoating, Passover lambs, the law as a means for us to desire sin as Paul put it in Romans (ever heard of the old saying, 'the law told me not to so I did it anyways'?). Had any scholarly atheist put the time and effort into debunking the theological necessity of the Christ which we bore witness to, that is the sacrificial lamb of God, then we might actually GET somewhere in a debate.
Instead, Hitchens elegantly proposes via his sheer verbosity that we should deny and reject such a sacrifice for our sakes on the basis of... exactly. He has no foundational basis beyond that of Jefferson, faulty syllogisms of C.S. Lewis, and his by-far favorite philosophical treatises provided by Thomas Paine. All had similar contentions, all wrote down why in their own manner. NONE provided any moral foundation as to why they contended beyond conflictions with their taken-for-granted ability to reason which MAY VERY WELL BE FLAWED, all things considered (there is no truth to philosophy, just a better rhetoritician in a debate, as I like to think).
Therefore, Hitchens, along with Dawkins and Harris provide no foundation to their morality. They claim reason is sufficient whilst ignoring the atrocities committed by the reason-based societies of ages past. There is only TRUTH IN YESHUA. The sooner we all come to realize this, the sooner this world will be made pure.
Michael Asta be made pure? In what context? Yours? Your reason is fallible, as is all of ours. The universe has no moral laws or consequences. It bids us no graciousness nor spares us pain. We might as well not exist. Yet you, wit your insecurities and need to feel important, attempt to impart your flawed views on others as if it was truth itself. Lemme tell you something camper. You try and purify anyone in the way your words insinuate, and I’ll put you down so fast, you won’t know what hit you. Check your tone little man.
Andrew Charles Well now you need to define what it means to "accept Jesus". As a Messianic Jew, I entirely fail to see the moral justification in rejecting the Messiah of man. I view the atheist and anti-theistic perspective on Christianity to lack any justification whatsoever; the logic behind the idea of being good without any meta-ethical foundation upon which defines what it even means to be "good" proves to me just how unjustified and irrational the atheistic worldview is. At the very least, Christ offers a basis for morality via his sermons and demonstrations of moral action in Judea. I have yet to meet an atheist who, if he/she does not outright reject the need for a moral foundation as a premise for "good" living (or simply deny the need for morality altogether), can provide an appropriate substitute for an absolute moral code which DOESN'T rely on the premise of evolutionary biology dictating via genes our morality over time (an utterly unproven conjecture, and one which Hitchens himself subscribed to, as does Dawkins).
As a sidenote, if one were to provide culturally relative morality as a basis, I would find them to be so utterly irrational as to fall squarely on the side of incredulity to say the least.
Thoughts?
Andrew Charles Then I am a Christian who was born a Jew, if that seems less confusing to you. With regards to the Deuteronomy passage, the one who foretells signs and has visions all of which come true, and then tells the people to follow "other gods", i.e. not the Almighty infinite and invisible God of the Hebrews, makes the enormous assumption that (1) Christ foretold things which did/will happen, meaning that what was written in the New Testament was not entirely falsifiable if indeed Christ did exist (and I know for a fact that there are even secular historical documents from 1 AD which at least verify his existence), and (2) That Christ demanded that everybody follow "other gods". The "other gods" being referred to by Christians are that Christ was God Almighty of the Jews in the flesh, and that of the Almighty's spirit which descended upon the Earth in its formation and hovered above the waters (as is written in Genesis, one of the few references to God's spirit), included amongst the Almighty Father God.
Christians worship the same God as the Hebrews, and even study the Tanakh in the form of the Old Testament, i.e. the Hebrew Bible. Even the prophets of old claimed that the Son of God would come to the Earth, that the Messiah would save the Jews AND the Gentiles (Isaiah 56) - it just turns out that that very same Messiah would be the Blessed Son of God.
If you're Jewish, then you know that the Jews worship an unformed God, a God who does not manifest in the human form, just as David realized when he asked God if he could make Him a temple to reside in. The God of the Jews is as infinite as the universe, yet made Himself known to Abraham, the first human to become aware of this Truth.
What occurred with Jesus was that God finally became PERSONIFIED. He had form and feelings, He could connect with all humans rather than just the few individuals from His chosen of the human race. That's the greatest miracle of the Christians.
So Deuteronomy does not at all apply to Jesus of Nazareth, especially if he did not lead anybody to worship "other gods".
The book is not about the wisdom of men, but of God... And it happened long time ago you can't travel back in time to see. So see signs that he reveal to you that he exists. But you can only see it if you believe. The keyword is 'believe'.
@THEEVANTHETOON - You're talking about the "Chrestus" thing? Suetonius mentions that (Ch XXV) being in Claudius' time, which would be 20 years after Jesus died.
For a person to forgive the transgressions of another when said person was not involved in any way shape or form is like being with a woman, finding out that years before he met her, she had slept with other men, then saying that you forgive her for it.
Arrogant, rude, intrusive, self-serving positions like that should be dismissed outright.
I will try to clarify this for you, He said He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. That His righteousness is imparted by Him fulfilling the law. That under grace (for anyone that sins against a holy God is condemned to be separate from God eternally for no sin can ever be unpunished before Him) we have the promise of eternal life. But a true Christian will be convicted of breaking God's commandments and turn and it's a continuous repentance process. That is what we believe.
Why dont you believe too?Its that easy and simple.I do not have to worry everyday if i will go there or not.I just fully trust Jesus by faith and i know that i am going there.
I totally read that in my head in Christopher's voice.
Wake up boys and girls. We were not put on this planet for God to prove to us who He is, we were put here to show God who we are. How are you doing so far?
@@jeffforsythe9514 which god?
That is very possibly one of the highest compliments I've ever been afforded.
my attachment to my faith brings me joy, whilst your happiness is triggered by moments and happenings. this is how I know my God is real and your opinion is yours but hope that it may change one day.
Promise is not something that is achieved, it is something that is fulfilled.Eternal life is free and there is nothing u can do to achieve it.Just believe on Christ to save you and you are instantly saved.
200 decades later & the secular humanists still dealing with Gsus. Miss u hitch22. No more etoh challenges
Why is it immoral to willingly take someone else's sin upon yourself?
but how can you audaciously stand there KNOWING WHAT THEY DO (NOT CHRISTIANS YOU KNOW WHAT IM SAYING) and have the nerve to say Christ's sacrifice is sickening and immoral?? hmmm
lol you cant see how torturing and murdering another human being for YOUR crimes no matter how willing they me be is IMMORAL?
how about how immoral it was for you to be "created" already a criminal and then demanded you fix yourself?
THATS not Immoral?
you CANT see that?
wow, just wow..
whats it like to have 0 moral compass?
@@ripvanwinkle2002 you have no idea what I'm talking about
are you pro-choice as most fans of Chris are just curious??
my standard objective point of morality comes from God , where does yours come from .. primordial pond scum and star dust ?? *but more importantly is the WHY then the where if we are all just a random chance why does it matter*?? hmmm .. *why does morality matter if we are all just chance* ?
@@morganophelia5963 morality comes from god? which god? which morality? how did humans make it for tens of thousands of years without god if they needed one to be moral?
wtf does abortion have to do with the fact there is no god of any kind there is no evidence OF a god, or of there every having been one. period..
@brockunc Free will is very much a part of Christianity. We are not machines. We are not puppets. Our actions are not "determined" by anyone other than ourselves, and are not pre-determined at all. (In the way that you can predict that if you keep crossing the street at a certain speed, and a car keeps coming at you, you can predict that it may hit you. But the car might swerve, or you might turn back... ) You are always free to make your own choices - and you are responsible for them.
@ajax515 You have yet to offer a valid refutation for:
1) Why we cannot trust the sources which mention Bible events ("They are not contemporary" does not work, nor does "historains reject them", because they do not).
2) Why we should assume miracles are impossible. ("There's no evidence" does not work, because not only is this false, but an event can still be "possible" if it has never happened).
3) Why you treat the Gospels differently than any other source.
@THEEVANTHETOON - "what did the disciples had to gain by inventing such a myth?" - What did the Greeks and Romans have to gain by inventing myths of Zeus, Jupiter, Hercules, Dionysus, Prometheus? What did the the Phrygians have to gain by inventing Attis? The Persians: Mithra. The Hindus: Krishna?
The real problem is Paul. previously Saul, who claimed to have had visions of Jesus, undermined Jesus' teachings and made it easier for the gentiles with his questionable reasoning, he claimed that faith is the main yardstick for salvation and never mind what Jesus said about following Mosaic laws, leaving one's wealth and family et cetera. Naturally, people opt for the easier choice.
Without reset button, save option, or replay chance, I'd like to add.
I am a christian..but the problem is that the teachings of Christianity are not the same as the teachings of Christ.
The reason we bring our sins to Jesus is not that we are irresponsible it is the fact that we as human beings cannot absolve ourselves of sin. God calls our acts of self redemption filthy rags. The Bible says that there is none is righteous no not one. Jesus with His perfect sacrifice is the only one who can take away our sin. He has already forgiven us. we just need to accept it. Keep watching!
If there was witches to burn, I would be burned as well. For we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Doesn't matter what we have done in this life, we are not good enough and our works will never get us anywhere but an eternal tourmented separation from God. So I completely rest upon the One who had no sin, but became sin for us. I trust in NOTHING other than the finished work of He who died for us, Jesus, our Messiah, our Lord and King.
Anyone who has lived in a fundamentalist Christian home knows EXACTLY what it means to live an existence where believers don't care about tomorrow because they are looking forward to death. As someone who grew up in a home like that, I can say now that there is nothing MORE immoral than that. The only thing worse is cloaking it in piety and self-righteousness by believing that you are one of gods chosen. Sick, sick, sick.
Correction: Christians are not looking forward to death. They do care about the tomorrow when Christ returns who gave us victory over death, hell and the grave. We look for ETERNAL LIFE with Christ.
Christianity is a relationship with God. Meaning, you are to know God like how you know any other person. You get to know that person's personality. That's how you are supposed to know God. Do you know what Christianity is all about? If you don't, you should, or else you would be making a terrible mistake of misunderstanding someone. God is all that is good. Don't doubt this or else how the little bit of good in the world is seen? You can ask him to reveal himself to you, but only if you believe
@ajax515 I've lost? I'm not the one 1) arguing in circles, 2) attacking the other person rather than their arguments, 3) rejecting evidence because it does not fit my philosophical view, 4) using weak arguments without evidence, 5) committing the definitional retreat fallacy, and 6) running away from the argument. In short, I'm really not sure how I've lost.
@gekritzl "who first discovered the tomb was empty; and who first saw "resurrected" Jesus?"
Mary Magadalene, "the other Mary", and "other women".
This is not a contradiction, it is a difference. Just because John's Gospel does not mention the other women does not mean it is incorrect. In general, the lack of information provided in other sources does not indicate a contradiction.
Somalia 0% Atheist
Tanzania 0.5% Atheist
Yemen 0.02% Atheist
Western Sahara 0% Atheist
Philippines 0.1% Atheist
Romania 0.1% Atheist
Pakistan 0.2% Atheist
Cambodia 0.4% Atheist
Iran 0.6% Atheist
Do you really think countries with a majority of theists are better?!
@gekritzl "The point is that NOcontemporary writers recorded anything"
1) The Gospels are contemporary.
2) The teachings of the Buddha were recorded 300 years after his life, yet few people doubt that it records his teachings accurately.
3) Perhaps contemporaries did write things about Him that we no longer have access to.
"if the events really happened, all writers would have stopped everything they were doing to write about"
Incorrect.
1) Most Roman historians wrote about...
@ajax515 "they could have looked the other way at any time"
1) For the 10+ minutes it would have taken to get the body out of the tomb?
2) The stone that seals tombs make alot of noise. Perhaps these guards were also deaf?
"Just because the body was missing when they returned does not lead to the conclusion that "oh, he must of floated up to heaven""
True, but many people claimed to see the risen Jesus for forty days after the Resurrection.
@7eardstapa7 proper context is reading it like a book. which means that when someone is giving the order to go ransack a city doesnt mean that the book teaches that ransacking any random city is what to do.
@THEEVANTHETOON "Jesus does not support violence" - Jn 15:6, "If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth."
Jesus praises genocide (Acts 13:17-19, Jude 1:5-8, Mt 11:20-23, Mt 15:4, Mk 7:10). Jesus condemns you to hell if you call others fool, Mt 5:22.
The truth is that Jezus story was strongly fabrcated. Gnostic Christians that God sends prophets every century to teach people about aspects of morality, Buddha, Jezus Da Lai Lama were all his prophets. All these people have gathered strong influence among them and taught good things.
However, their teachings were in the end used by others for their gains. All teachings were changed, some parts of Bible were burned, people who wanted to share knowledge were called Heretics and burned.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistis_Sophia
This text teaches us about reincarnation and is taught by Jezus after his return to his students after his crucifiction.
This is very usual thing that good thing gather strong influence among people, but in the end sb uses it for his gain.
God is in fact very fair, good and compassionate.
When you think about it, this vicarious absorption of moral responsibility in Christianity is little more than an extension of Yom Kippur. The Jewish person, on that day of atonement, does not seek out all those he has wronged and beg forgiveness. No, he merely takes a day off from work and does nothing. Muslims likewise on Ashoura do not reach out to those they have wronged in search of forgiveness. No, all of these Abrahamic religions are equally shirking of personal moral responsibility. It’s no coincidence that the devout of all these religions have a tendency to persecute those perceived as less moral (such as homosexuals). Projection goes a loooong way.
No it is not.
In Judaism, God can forgive sins against God, but God does not forgive sins against others. The only way to get forgiveness for some wrong you have done another person is to ask forgiveness from that person. This is why murder is unforgivable.
Contrary to your statement, at Yom Kippur (and the 10 days preceding) we are meant to seek out all people we have wronged and ask for forgiveness. If we do not do this, then we are not forgiven - God will not forgive us, and we have not sought forgiveness. It is true that most people do not do this, which is a shame; they may believe themselves to be forgiven, but they are not.
In that period, we are also encouraged to forgive others for wrongs done to us.
This is completely different to Christianity where God or some "earthly representative" can forgive your sins.
Mr. Hitchins is right. Third-party forgiveness of sins is reprehensible and should be a considered a sin in itself.
A faction believes that. But not traditional Christianity: Roman Catholic, Greek, Russian, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian, Persian, Syrian Churches, etc etc.
For us, being under grace means repenting, having faith, hope and love. By Law we know sin. By grace we know love and forgiveness. Christians indeed can do what they want provided it is with love, abiding in Christ. If all is done in love, then there is no conscious sin, and inadvertent sin is forgiven.
A book of 'harsh truths'. A book stating that you must kill unbelievers, kill those of other faiths, kill disobedient children, and kill those who work on the Sabbath. A tawdry little novel stating that slavery is permissible, that rapists must marry the women they rape, furthermore that women are scarcely-sentient property and may not hold authority over men.
Wisdom indeed. If living eternally meant living with maniacs who believed that hysterical, barbaric nonsense, I think I'd have to pass.
@ajax515 Now, as for the Qur'an, Bhagavad Gita, etc.
1) The Qur'an actually says Muhammed never performed any miracles.
2) The writers of the Bhagavad Gita never claimed to be witnesses to the miracles.
3) The Pali Canon was written 350+ years after Buddha.
4) Extra-religious texts make no mention of the miracles in other religions.
5) The miracles in Christianity are radically different than those in other religions. They actually help people.
@ShadowCrowX Christianity is not about being "a fragment." Quite the opposite. It is about individual responsibility in one's choices and actions.
@ajax515 "I reject them because of the lack of evidence"
No, you reject the evidence because you first rejected the miracles.
1) Do you believe miracles are possible? (note the word "possible")
2) Why don't you believe the Gospels were written by the disciples even though the early church fathers unanimously agree on this?
The agreement proposed by Jesus was, God holds nothing against me, I hold nothing against them (as in Matt. 6: 14,15). This agreement never denies justice for them, only denies justice for me; =grace. As a result, the law is fulfilled for those who demand justice.
The Gospel gives me the choice between God's grace or my justice. It is not someone stepping in and taking responsibility for me.
@ajax515 That explanation doesn't work either. Take this example: as a kid, you believe Santa gives you presents. However, as you get older, you realize your parents give you presents. Atheism (in the way you describe it), however, would say: "There presents are just there. Their existence is just pure fact". Given the choice between believing in Santa and believing in that, I think most of us would choose Santa--it at leasts accounts for the presents!
@ajax515 "The disciples cannot be historically verified"
1) The Talmud, Jewish tradition, and Hierocles mention the disciples.
2) The idea that they would "invent the disciples" is as absurd as assuming that the Greeks "invented" Plato.
3) None of the early church fathers doubted the existence of the disciples.
4) So who wrote the Epistles and Gospels if the disciples didn't?
5) Why would the Gospels portray such an unheroic image of the disciples if they did not exist?
and why would that be, he's entitled to his opinions and people are entitled to listen and make a decision for themselves
@ajax515 "The gospels were not compiled until at least a few decades after this man's supposed death"
1) If an eyewitnesse of JFK's assassination were to give you details of the event, would you believe them?
2) The Epistles of Paul were all written within 20 years of Christ's Resurrection. Certain creeds which can be found in these letters make it clear that even the earliest Christians believe in the Resurrection, miracles of Jesus, etc. This was not just invented later.
The truth that sets you free is that jesus cursed a fruitless fig tree with only leaves, said not to take vows, used a double negative and metaphors to replace the old covenant with the new one, pre-emptively dismissed the epistles at John 13:16, and taught reincarnation. The basic gnostic idea is joshua = jesus in hebrew and both stories start at the jordan river...and cannabis is the identity of the menorah at the right hand of the ark in the hebrew temple.
If god really wanted us to worship him why are there non-believers?
Salvation is a free gift of God,payed for by his son Jesus Christ.So i dont have to long for anything because its free, i just accept what Jesus did for me and i ask him to save me and take me to heaven.
Titus 3:5 :Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
In fairness, the Holey Babble is perfectly clear God only chooses a few to save from the sins that his commands create. "Where is no law these is no sin."
So is this only partial insanity (sic)?
@gekritzl
"Josephus would NEVER have praised Jesus the way he was forged"
Incorrect. A 4th century Arabic manuscript probably is closer to what Josephus actually said: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and was known to be virtuous. Many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported...
I don't usually like listening to Atheists for the same reasons I don't like listening to Theists. However, this excerpt is good information to think about in one's spare time.
@THEEVANTHETOON - correction to something I wrote -- when I wrote 'purely Origen -- him "quoting Josephus."'
I meant 'purely Origen -- NOT him "quoting Josephus."' Sorry.
Actually, I am agreeing with you. I don't understand where you think I am disagreeing with you. However, he is not the ultimate scapegoat. He gives us the ability to go into heaven not that we simply believe and bam we are in. That is a fundamentalist point of view. I never said you were arguing against the bible I am merely saying he is mostly talking about the watered down protestant perspective as opposed to the correct understanding.
Hitchens seems to misunderstand Christian teaching. It's not vicarious redemption. CS Lewis said that Jesus was "the God who's laws were broken, and his love wounded in every sin", so it is not "immoral" for him to redeem them. Also, who ever said we are not responsible for our actions? The difference is that spiritually we are no longer _identified_ by our sin, so our eternal relationship with God is restored.
@THEEVANTHETOON - Mt 27, "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour..." "and the earth did quake" "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." If not global, at least huge.
AND, Jesus was *world famous* even in his own time (Rom 10): "their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
@ajax515 "prove the resurrection"
1) Jesus was crucified and buried in a tomb (Josephus, Mara Bar Serapion, the Talmud, Tacitus, etc.)
2) On the Sunday after, His body was not in the tomb (Jewish tradition, the Jews could have easily ended Christianity by showing people the body, which they would have. However, they did not, implying that they could not, and that they didn't know where the body was, as it was not in the tomb).
3) Many people claimed they saw the risen Christ.
@ajax515 A.H. Sayce sums it up when he says "...if there was no record of miracles in the Old and New Testaments, it may be questioned whether so much zeal would have been displayed in endeavouring to throw doubt on the authenticity of their contents" (Sayce, MFHCF, 126). In other words, Sayce believes that if the Bible made no mention of supernatural events, very few people would be unwilling to accept it as historical. However, we cannot rule out the possibility of miracles.
Jesus was just a man with pure words. Perhaps he healed the sick and whatever, but it is as if his powers have been exagerated. Christians are reliving the Bible by rejecting the teachings of modern day Jesus' who are basically spiritual, new age, and self help authors. The only difference is that these modern authors allow for self strength. But no, we must be seperate from God and seek his counsel, rather than BE a fragment of God, in order to redeem ourselves.