Acoustic Guitar Woods! Rosewood, why? Hickory, why not?
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- Опубликовано: 22 мар 2023
- Ever make an acoustic guitar of Ash, Hickory, Cherry? A monologue discussion of advocating the use of north American hardwoods in acoustic guitars.
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I'm 65, a lifelong tinkerer and wood worker, and played guitar as a hobby since age 10. My first guitar had a neck that was way too thick, so I carved it. I never looked back. I eventually went into engineering because that is all I could seem to do. I was thinking I would tool up, buy woods, and help local kids get a good electric guitar and do it hands-on, so I began to pursue that. Well, I destroyed my back during that endeavor, and it never happened. Now I have all of these woods, and the hardness and density are what I based my choices on. Yes, they are equatorial woods - something I didn't think about at the time. Many of the boards could easily be used for acoustic guitars and I have a bandsaw with ten-inch capacity. I just finished building a real woodshop which is something I have never had. So now I am trying to get a few in before I kick the bucket.
Watching your presentation, I get exactly where you are coming from. If it has the right specific gravity and hardness relativity, what difference does it make where it came from? And yes, the US has plenty of forests to selectively harvest. Being from the West coast, the woods that fall into that category are less available, but even some of the West coast varieties would probably work.
I agree that this concept that it has to be this or that exotic wood and as you say the practices absolutely should be part of the decision, and it is good to see this thought-out approach finally coming into the fore. Controversy or not, having controversy over taking advantage of others and in the process destroying the lungs of the earth is silly. It is killing the future for what - A nice-looking guitar body? Okie dokie, that's just fantastic. I'll say it whereas you didn't - think hard about the impact of your personal choices - it did not just magically appear into a music store - a lot happened before it got there. Some of it was good, and some of it really bad.
I enjoyed reading your comment and agree with your assessment. I fear our society has gone down a really bananas path with regard to what we prioritize. And you didn't say it, but I will, this has happened at the hand of capitalist consumerism and the perverse notion that value can be expressed in USD.
Agreed ive been woodworking since I was 8 yrs old. 40 yrs later ive made just about everything out of wood. About 6 yrs ago I got idea to make guitar out of walnut and cherry. I was told it can't be done. Thank you for this video challenge accepted.
I agree 100%! I built a quarter sawn red oak Martin style Dreadnaught for a friend, and was amazed at how good it sounded! It is really beautiful, too!
Sometime in the 90's, Martin built three Dreadnoughts in Walnut, Cherry and Red Oak. They were not well received at all,I think because they didn't look "Martinique" and it's too bad because all of those guitar were every bit as good as any other Dreadnought they built. I don't have to guess. I KNOW your Red Oak guitar is excellent and I admire your willingness to divert from the Mahogany mentality.
Another American hardwood of interest is Osage Orange. It is a very good tonewood, getting close to some of the rosewoods in sound, hardness, and density. I was just wondering about hickory and I think I will give it a try on one of my next builds coming up!
Same family but a bit less numericaly is mulberry and even pecan
I've been using Osage Orange for fretboards, nuts and bridges.
I was going to mention Osage Orange separately but will tag on to your comment. It is much harder than Hickory at 2,620 J hardness and .76 specific gravity. Pretty inexpensive as well. I have some planning to make bridges and fretboards with it.
Osage orange is a viable candidate - it bends well and has numbers in the range of the rosewoods. Acacia melanoxylon (Black acacia), which is a close relative of koa, also bends well and is often available in sizes that work for instrument making. Black acacia also makes good fingerboards, holding frets surprisingly well.
Really interesting and thought provoking, thank you for making this video
Fascinating. I built 4 dreadnoughts out of walnut in 1976. Sounded great then. I saw two of them a few years ago and they aged beautifully. Making a birdseye classical right now. Glad to see I'm not the only nativist out there!
Thanks for the information
I live in Western Canada and I'm studying lutherie. My chosen instrument is the ukulele and my latest build was of what we call Manitoba maple, I believe it's also called box elder. The reds in it are spectacular and, although it needed quite a bit of stabilization, I'm very pleased with how it sounds. I've purchased some roasted maple that I plan to try using for fret boards and bridges. By all means, let's explore the possibilities of the native North American woods.
How did you finish the BE to keep the flame from fading over time?
@@abydosianchulac2I used Stew Mac's wipe on poly. The uke is about a year and a half old, not sure how it will age.
This is an excellent video and I just became a new subscriber. I like the looks of the lighter woods also. There are also great woods from the northwest as well. I agree with your comment about companies harvesting wood for profit.
Excellent video and channel, I love it. Instant sub.
Great presentation, I totally agree with you.
I'm very glad that you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
Good video, good job.
I really like your general outlook, and you make beautiful guitars. Subscribed, and I have your website bookmarked too.
Awesome, thank you!
Really enjoyed your approach Kevin!
Awesome, thank you! I have enjoyed building in local materials for thirty years and have not intention of changing.
Wow those guitars look great! ❤
Thank you. To date, I have made 145 of them and they are in most states in the union as well as one in Scotland. You can see more guitars and shop pictures at www.ladueguitars.com
I would imagine you could make something beautiful using your knowledge of the material regardless of the species
a thoroughly enjoyable video created by a man that truly cares.
All the best.
It is good to hear someone else talking about using our on local woods to build great guitars I am getting back into building now instead of just repairs and I am going to build with my local materials I do have other ideas to make them sound really good and I see no reason we can not build great instruments with what we have available and I was really surprised when I saw your video and you made me a lot more secure in my endeavors and I thank you it means more than you could know and to say your guitars are very beautiful and I will be looking forward to more of your videos as they come out
Wonderful to hear. I love walnut, maple, locust, even oak. I really want to build with American chestnut and very excited to hear that you have!
I am a new builder. Thank you. This is a great encouragement for me to use local woods for my guitars.
You're very welcome. Get good luck with your building. Send me some pictures?
Using your advice I made my first ever top. A four piece from a cedar fence post, and a cherry fingerboard from a trim scrap. I put it on an old Harmony parlor that I bought at a thrift store for $40 that had a collapsed top. It looks beautiful tho I haven't strung it yet. Just the experience was extremely fun and addicting. Thank you for all your inspirational videos!
10:30 "you can tap all the fingerboards you want, as far as i'm concerned they don't mean anything to the sound of the guitar" thanks so much for saying this, it's refreshing to hear sense in this field of work.
It is fascinating that you can drop a piece of wood so that the end grain hits a concrete floor, and it will deliver a musical tone for a split second, regardless of size. Interesting phenomenon, but I think the "cork sniffers" carry this stuff way too far way too often, fingerboard tapping being a prime example.
Great informative video …. Agree with your comments on the explotation of the world’s forest.
Thanks for watching!
I watched this video with great interest. I've been a woodworker most my life, but only recently built my first guitar, a classical. I used black walnut throughout (with spruce top and wenge fingerboard and bridge). I've only used domestic hardwoods in my work for years, so it was a no-brainer to use some of the walnut in my shop (I found a nice piece of quarter sawn in the lumber yard.. I think it is a very handsome guitar and is delightful to play. I see all the mistakes in my first build and don't care. It's for me, and some mistakes will be replaced by others as I make more..
I just recently discovered your channel, and like your approach to craft. It's not too far from mine (though I have a small but substantial CNC in my shop). I look forward to more of your videos.
I like what you said about timber being out of poor country's if only more people would do what you do, it would help the poorer country's or even pay their worth. Thanks for the video. It was very informative 👍
What an inspiring presentation on reducing environmental impacts and encouraging the use of domestic American tonewoods. I’m on board.
I actually found this video while searching for guitars made from Hickory species.
Thank you for your insightful video! I like how you pointed out specific gravity of woods that can be used in acoustic guitar construction, and how, as you say, overlap the equatorial woods. My user name here notwithstanding, LOL, what I look for in a good acoustic guitar is not only playability, but good projection and balance of tone from bass to treble. That's why, and I have had players of all kinds and skill levels tell me; "Yeah right, sure" I have always said it's harder to buy an acoustic than an electric. You can do a lot of things with an electric to alter/improve it's tone, but it's limited with an acoustic. It's "this is the tone you get", and that is in no way an insult to you or any other lutihier.
You have crafted very beautiful instruments, keep up the great work! 😊😊👍👍
Thank you. I just flame treated plywood and used stainless steel for my guitar sides. Ive realized tone comes from so many places. Thank you for the information!
This video has been very informative & very well done. Certainly reformed my perspective somewhat on guitar building ethics, looks vs sound. I have 3 guitars, one of which is a Guild Classical, nylon strung, & is the 1st guitar I ever purchased 64 years ago in the dry, high desert western state of Utah. Sir, please continue making your very beautiful & heartfelt, videos. Now a loyal fan, Ron (“in Utah”) 😎 🇺🇸
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate it. That Guild classical you have is quite rare. They were very nicely made and yours is from the original Hoboken, NJ shop when the founder, Alfred Dronge, was alive and active. NICE!
If you want to color that light color fret board try rust and vinegar. It reacts with tannin in the wood and darkens it. Some woods will go all the way black. It really brings out the grain.
Fume with ammonia
We used to call that stuff "liquid hell" It seemed to fit for some reason.
Also you can soak the surface with strong tea to increase the blackening.
For a more controlled, repeatable stain you can use ferrous sulphate/"green vitriol" for this effect. It's purchasable for pretty little expense online, and once you find a solution strength you like you can mix it up again and again without the crapshoot of whether you have as many rusty nails of the same level corrosion as last time.
Make sure to test on scrap. Some woods will stain unevenly with light and dark blotches.
I have a guitar shop in NC. Mostly repair work but I do from time to time get to build. About 20 years ago a friend had two very large cherry trees that had to be removed for an addition on his house. He gave me the trunks. I also acquired a fair amount of Black Walnut and some Red spruce from the mountains. These woods do make great guitars.
Just discovered your channel and I agree wholeheartedly about the need to build as much as feasible with local woods -- it does seem to finally be gaining some ground, but it's taken decades. I remember Ted Davis talking about this some (especially about Osage Orange) back in the 80's in a couple of GAL articles and was lucky enough to visit his shop way back then.
Thanks for your comment.To put a finer point on the video, I don't advocate that the industry, especially production shops and manufacturers start using local materials. In fact, I don't care what the "cork sniffers" do and I resent the business models of the manufacturers. What I DO advocate is that luthiers question the conventions of our craft, especially those regarding material use.
As a luthier (restoration), and player I completely agree with what you are pitching here. I especially like the idea of oak as a tone wood. Glitches if any occur (or seem to occur) from two things. One is how the wood is cured/dried, the other being that some of the wood described is rather hard on cutting tools - primarily because they are less 'oily' than many of the exotic woods. Both factors are easily overcome.
I just wanted to touch base and say hello. 4 years ago I started a milling local tonewoods (I'm in Southern Ontario)- black walnut, american cherry, locust, butternut, etc. to offer rainforest alternates to the luthier community.
Thanks for your video!
I enjoyed this video and learned more about building an acoustic guitar. My first acoustic guitar build is a kit with body and back figured maple, mahogany neck, the rosewood fret board will be a maple, the rosewood saddle is birds eye maple and the head was rosewood laminate is not figured male veneer. I hope my build is half as nice as my imagination see it, I will post it on my web site when I've finished.
On the one hand, I like the aesthetics of tropical woods, on the other hand, we in Europe and you in the USA have wonderful wood right on our doorstep. Look at what wonderful wood maple produces, or plum. You have a great wood in the US that you didn't mention: Osage Orange. I discovered this by chance a few years ago, immediately fell in love with it and was shocked that it was often only used in the oven and so I saved me some sets.
Here in Germany there has been an effort for a long time to build instruments with local wood. I have the impression that acceptance is very slow and that a change in thinking has begun, but such "eco" guitars still have an image problem. Australians, on the other hand, are pretty radically focused on sustainable and local wood.
I like this video. I live in Iceland, and it is challenging to get wood here. I use what I can get, and I have used oak and beech, which sound great.
Greetings from Idaho, USA!
While I'm certain Iceland gets more than its fair share of snow, freezing rain, blizzards and plain old rainy days; do you find all that moisture makes for difficult drying and general fabrication, as well as simple storage of acoustic instruments?
This is a very good tutorial.
Thank you. I hope you view and enjoy my other videos.
I began building with birch because it was the cheapest hardwood at the local lumberyard. I remain fond of birch, but I moved up to cherry as my chops developed, then walnut. I wrote an article recommending cherry in American Lutherie magazine in 1991. By the time lumber is rendered into instrument wood we can judge whether or not it will be stable enough for guitars, regardless of grain flow. I love the exotics too, but it is way more fun to track down and build from N. American varieties. As you say, it’s strange that they are just now being recognized as wonderful instrument woods. Tradition and closed minds are powerful forces among musicians and luthiers alike. Thank you for your videos. I always enjoy them.
Fantastic video. Your point from 7:30 on. Exactly this. I’ve made a couple of instruments but understand the pragmatism at this point I’m not going to make a fantastic instrument that would warrant this expensive wood. I’ve just finished a British Oak back and sides Baritone Ukulele. All the wood used has been salvaged/recycled. It works. That’s all I expected of it. Building up knowledge and confidence for the next build. Thank you and subscription added.
Good stuff! And I'm glad you liked the video.
I've come to similar conclusions over the years and have enjoyed using black locust in particular.
Thanks great info. I am retired. wood work guitar player from Michigan live in Thailand planning to build 12 string have one now a Guild 12 guild 6 and a Starfire Guild. going to use what ever I can find here thanks again
Best of luck! I'm sure your effort will be rewarded with a terrific instrument.
Very interesting. I saw a video from a guitar builder who used Osage Orange for a guitar build. Sounds very interesting to build out of local materials. I'm doing some amateur building and want to soon build my own acoustic, and would love to do more local woods here in the Midwest.
Interesting! Im seeing Osage Orange and hearing of it more and more. I have never used it but would really like to. at the moment, i don't know where to find it. I'll be searching.
@@thepragmaticluthier so I'm in western Missouri, and there's a hardwood store that sells it. The big challenge is that it's hard to get big enough chunks for guitars.
I saw that Showalter guitars in Virginia uses it, and in fact used American Sycamore as a top.
So I can get it here, but I'm not sure how really in guitar sized pieces.
I cut down a tree when I bought our current house four years ago. I've cut some of the logs down and I'm making a box body mandolin out of the wood. Hopefully it'll turn out well, and I'm pretty sure the wood is Osage Orange.
It's very common along creek beds here.
I just bought a solid walnut back and sides/sitka spruce top Taylor AD 12e-sb, and it is really an interesting sounding guitar. It's got the warmth of Koa on the low end with the sparkle of Maple in the treble, and the mid range of Mahogany. It's kinda hard to categorize but it sounds wonderful. Very balanced with a hint of spice. A beautiful grain and color as well.
My last guitar was all common North American woods. The fretboard was hickory from a piece of leftover flooring.
Second comment lol. If you know of Trevor Gore (well known Aussie luthier and author), he made an amazing guitar using so called "rubbish timbers" he recycled from his shed. Its sounds pretty darned good, considering it was made using construction type lumbers. So, tonewood is important to a certain degree, particularly in tops, but for backs and sides, necks and fretboards, the amount they contribute to tone is fairly small, esp for a beginning maker like myself (I dont qualify as a luthier yet😂). Trevor stressed that good basic grain considerations, timber qualities (how easy is it to bend, density etc) and most of all, sound construction techniques, are what contribute most to tone (apart from the soundboard). Its tge last little few percentage points of tone that come from tge best timbers, but most folks cant tell the difference anyway...
Was going to mention using Osage Orange as well, seems it would make a fantastic neck. I have sawn some, and it saws well when green. The stuff is yellow when it is fresh, but turns as dark as walnut after you have finished. Light seems to darken it.
I build pretty much with Walnut, Cherry, Maple, and White Oak. Lately, I've been using Pacific Madrone for fretboards and bridges. My stash of exotics is pretty much gone and I don't plan on building with anything but domestic woods until I pass. Great Video.Thank you.
How stable has the Madrone proven to be? I had heard furniture makers claim the wood is very unstable and will twist and warp as it ages.
Great video and I agree with you. I would like to bring to attention as a guitar player the tons of wood used for the low end of the guitar manufacturing, import instruments from around $100 to $300, maybe some would consider up to $500, that at the present pace today's remaining forests may go extint in the next few decades. Add to that also the cheap furniture market, another story. My point is to support the most for regional wood species harvested responsibly and we could still make amazing guitars for generations. The sound can be subjective, besides rosewood, mahogany, ebony, and most other tropical woods, a guitar made with different suitable woods and great craftsmanship will sound wonderful too. Thanks.
Hi Kevin, i'm a player and have bought all kinds of used string instruments. You can bet that after watching your informative video that i'll be encouraging any luthier building from indiginous woods.
Thank you for your positive response, but more importantly, your receptiveness is refreshing and encouraging. It's nice to know that not everyone suffers from "Rosewood Retention".
It's funny that you post this video shortly before I bought a large piece of quartersawn, figured pecan (which is a type of hickory) to build guitars with. I've been wanting to use locally sourced woods as much as possible. Much like you, I looked at hardness and specific gravity and compared it to commonly used exotics and found that a lot of native hardwoods are almost identical on paper to the "traditional" exotics.
I would use Pecan in a heartbeat if it was available in my area. I used to work in a furniture store that sold a line of Pecan Bedroom and Dining furniture. Delightful; simply delightful.
I have been using honey locust for fretboards. It is abundant in Wisconsin and has interesting grain. I have access to an urban tree service that sells wood from trees that have to be taken down in the Milwaukee area.
Sounds great! Thank you for your input. I hope other might follow your suggestion.
A big part of the problem is the market. People tend to get very conservative when buying expensive instruments....It's gotta look like a pre-war Martin or Gibson or that guitar my hero played. Walnut has become much more popular lately and maple has been around for years. Other woods will become popular as people see more guitars out and about.
Great video, great topic. As a player, not a builder, I would love to hear some of your guitars. Fo you have any demo videos?
Live oak is 2680 hardness. I have a ton of it drying outside my house right now. It should be useable in a couple years. I plan on trying that out. I also have some beautiful bright redish-pink cedar already dried. That'll be my first guitar.
I was thinking the same thing and wondering if someone else had commented on Southern live oak.
Desert Ironwood has an even higher Janka hardness at 3260, but I'm not sure if it would be suitable for anything other than smaller projects.
Thanks for providing an honest evaluation. I buy guitars for ONLY how they sound.
Thank you for your comment.
This is great information. I think that an Adirondack spruce top, black cherry back and sides, and a maple/hickory neck would make a great guitar. Also, all of the wood could come from local lumber. Here in the Adirondack Mountains of Upstate New York, we have all of it. Curly yellow birch is also a beautiful wood.
I'm in the Southern Appalachian range but I'm currently building that exact guitar! Curly black cherry, red spruce, and maple neck.
Yellow birch or other hard birch (sweet birch) would make a fine tone wood and might be hard enough for fingerboards too.
Hey you want to barter red spruce for something I might have? Also how do you tell if its red at the lumberyard? Any clues?
Yellow birch is good. Sweet birch also. One of them is really hard. You find it on stupid Americana furniture like Ethan Allen.
I would have loved seeing a hickory guitar. Not a luthier but I really like working with hickory. I live in the Ozarks and we have lots of it.
Interesting viewpoint. I like all sorts of woods. I'm personally driven by the classics. The guitars that defined a time or music. I'm also left handed so I get what I get, I guess. Some builders don't even make left handed guitars. I personally go out of my way to never consider them if they ever do.
I've tried Boucher solid cherry and it was excellent. I've tried and had walnut guitars, all excellent. Maple on Jumbos are a great combo. Thanks for the video. Tom eh
Is that black cherry (prunus sp.) Or what they sometimes call "wild" cherry, some kind of birch (Betula sp) that they use (Boucher)?
@@nicholasgeorge7825 Prunus serotina, Black Cherry. Cheers, Tom eh
This video earned my subscription! Osage orange was mentioned earlier, but also fruitwoods are an option worth exploring. Plum and mulberry have a hardness of 1500 and 1680 respectively. Both can have stunning grain and are worth looking into.
That's sounds incorrect for mulberry, at least red. Its not that hard in my experience. For a much harder wood that resembles red mulberry try black locust. Apple can be pretty hard, and dogwood is probably the harder than any of the fruitwoods. Osage orange is an exception but its not really a fruitwood. Unfortunately no North American species can get close to the hardness of some of the tropical species.
I want to be where you are if you have plum trees large enough for any part of a guitar
@@nicholasgeorge7825 Osage Orange is definitely a fruitwood. Have you seen the fruits that grow on that tree?
@@golden.lights.twinkle2329 Yeah, thanks for that reply. You're right, they're pretty amazing, like lumpy grapefruit, and I think cattle eat them, but humans can't. I don't put it in the fruitwood category, because I think of fruitwoods as rather fine textured without too much pores. You know, like apple and pear. It looks more like black locust, which has similar yellow coloring, though not as yellow, more greenish, but hard, heavy, strong and stiff. Both would make excellent acoustic guitar back and side woods, and I know that they both have been used to good effect.
Red mulberry, which has to be technically a fruitwood does look similar, but is much softer.
Best of success in your woodworking endeavors.
@@abydosianchulac2 There's an ornamental plum variety that grows to around 2 foot diameter and 60 feet. Latin name is prunus cerasifera "altapupurea," Common name: purple leaf plum. I saw a huge one cut down once, but I haven't seen or handled the wood. I'm sure it's nice.
Bravo! The exotic stuff is disappearing. We need to appreciate what wood we have here and value it for instruments.
I agree with your thinking !! I have been collecting for 35 years , I have often wonder why can't other woods be used to build instruments !!
If you've been collecting wood for 35 years, it sound like it's time to start building. :)
You ain't kidding, there is fine wood here in NE only sufficient ageing time is the problem.
We have wormy Chestnut and some clear also, it makes very good backs.
Nice walnut!
Hedge (Osage Orange, Bois D’Arc). Janka hardness of 2620, SG of .86. Every fence line from dust bowl Kansas and Oklahoma cover in it.
It always amazed me that the best "tone woods" are only the rarest woods from exotic locations. Lots of great woods here. I personally have an affinity for quarter sawn white oak.
I think it's a "grass is always greener" situation. I too, admire quartered White Oak. I recently did an acoustic bass that went to Knoxville, TN with White Oak. Very cool look; tasty sound.
I can't argue with your premise !
For me, you can't beat maple for its bright sound and tone. I have guitars and ukuleles of all types but, walnut, cedar and maple make lovely tonal soundboards - never mind back and sides. I also have spruce, mahogany, koa, as well as acacia, bubinga, sapele, rosewood and countless others. I have yet to note any instrument made from cherry, willow and ash but, I'm willing to try !
I support your approach 100% on timber choice and worldwide forestry practices. I'm building in Australia and IMHO I have found endemic species that perfectly replace the timbers that have always been considered the *only* species a guitar can be built from.
That's good to know. i hope you find many, many locally available woods to work with.
I'm also in Australia, I have some absoutely beautiful red and yellow flamed Mackay cedar - tap tone is very similar other European cedar tops, sounds lovely, looks unreal. Tasmanian Blackwood, Myrtle, flamed Silver Ash for backs and sides. There are loads of good local woods over here IMO. Just have to shop around
It would be nice to hear how they sound.
The challenge is to get the consumer to buy into the fact that what might appear to them as run of the mill wood as excellent tonewood. I agree with you btw.
That would indeed be a hurtle for manufacturers large or small, but individuals like myself or possibly you, I (we) meet clients one on one and they come looking something that they can't get in a D28.
IMO, a tiger striped maple stained like the old Kentucky rifles were, would make a beautiful fretboard. 👍
I built a guitar under your instruction 14 years ago, and I've been wanting to do more woodworking ever since. I recently had to have 4 large white ash trees removed from my property, and sadly didn't have the equipment necessary to mill them. I'm considering remedying that with a bandsaw soon, and hope to start hoarding and drying more native lumber. For now I do have some 4/4 ash slabs and 3-400 bft of reject hardwood pallet blanks (oak, beech, ash, and cherry) stowed in the basement, and I can't wait to start working my way through it. I'll let you know if I ever try my hand at another guitar.
I remember you well. When you get that bandsaw, I hope you'll contact me again. Come visit an old luthier sometime.
@@thepragmaticluthier Hopefully you remember fondly and not because I ruined one of your jigs! I may end up with a Laguna if they go on sale for memorial day, but we'll see. I still need to determine if I can run in 220V or if I'm stuck with 110. I'll let you know if I'm ever able to swing by. I'm 2+ hours away these days.
There's some possibly harder alternatives to hickory, and with hickories you really need to watch the species and the growth density. As with all ring porous species, but hickory in particular, hardness will go down with tighter growth rings. There may be exceptions. The temperate zone ebony species, persimmon may have an edge in hardness over the hickories. Osage orange might. Generally black locust will be superior to hickory in stiffness and maybe hardness and wear resistance, but a lot depends on the locale. Gibson used baked maple for a while on Lee Pauls. Torre faction with resin impregnate on may yield good finger boards from temperate zone hardwoods. Walnut might be a good choice for experimenting. I believe old Ovations had walnut fingerboards. See US Forest Service wood data sheets for stiffness, density, hardness and other information on most commercially used wood species.
Hey I would love to hear some sound samples of your American hardwood guitars. I’m really interested in the oak. Thanks for all the info!
You will find a video on my channel of just that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts and observations on the sound qualities of these woods. (Recognizing, of course that body style, bracing, voicing, and other factors can complicate any broad statements in this area.)
I like you comment and it is a good and fair question, but I intentionally avoided talking about sound because I thought that I could only do that by comparing these materials to the familiar equatorial species; something I wanted to avoid. I want to encourage viewers to think independently of what is typical and familiar. I may do a short video with sound sample of many of these guitars.
Thanks for this video. I have also been salvaging local fallen trees (here around the west tip of Lake Ontario), with multiple guitars - both acoustic and electric - made of these woods.
You said "Shagbark Hickory is North Americas hardest and heaviest wood", but in fact Osage Orange is significantly harder, heavier, and also much better looking.
I didn't know that. I'm not surprised that It is. My information is borne out of measurements taken on commercially important hardwoods. I've never used osage orange and would like to, but have no idea where to find it .
@@thepragmaticluthier I have had conversations with local arborists, asking what they do with the more rare logs. I tell them that I am interested to taking these logs off their hands.
One day an arborist showed up with a truck load of Osage Orange. Osage is so hard that it would wear out the wood chippers in short order. This guy was trying to keep his best poker face as he was off loading the Osage on me, while I was also trying to keep my best poker face. After all; An Osage Orange acoustic set here in Southern Ontario will cost about $350 to $450.
I've quartered these logs with my chain saw, down to sections I can lift to my band saw, to rip back and side sets, lots fret boards, and even a few electric guitar necks.
Yeah, its hard to get official numbers for Osage orange, and victories vary a lot, but I'm guessing Osage is superior, certainly on average.
this video is just an eye openner to me. I run a small sawmill and do make some quarter sawn boards for woodworking. I also split logs for chairmaking where straight grain is important. After air drying the wood, I might put it in the solar kiln for a while to bring the moisture down that is compatible with my shop. That way I can start using the wood for a project faster. For guitar making, does the wood need extra time to be ready to use or the moisture content is the only criteria of importance? I heard stories about the benefit to air dry tonewood for decades !!?! Thanks for your answer and your time!!!
What any instrument builder is after is stability. Whether it be air drying or kiln drying doesn’t really matter as long as the material is brought to a proper working moisture content, and then carefully acclimated to the environment in which it’s going to be used. As Lumber ages, the various sugars and other substances inside it tend to solidify, and that creates greater stability, but waiting for decades for that to happen is not all that important as long as the material is nicely dry when you begin using it.
I absolutely love your take on the woods! I was thinking of finding a luthier around the Chicago area, to see they would do a build-assist with me to build a guitar identical in size with the Martin 000-15M I've had for a few years. I with thinking hickory back and sides and Sitka spruce soundboard. I like KOA as well and the birds eye maple too. Never fell in love with the Brazilian Rosewood as most of it seems too dark for my taste. I love Pennsylvania Cherry and an Amish friend built me a blanket chest out of it 33 years ago and it's age beautifully. I don't think I've seen any cherry wood guitars, is that a thing?
Cherry has been used albeit infrequently. I have seen some Cherry back & rim sets for sale at a couple luthiers' supply companies, but nothing steadily available. Martin was offering a smaller Cherry model, possibly through the custom shop, but I have seen only one in person. I have made at least 25 guitars in Cherry and consider it to be a first class material with respect to sound and sight. You can see pictures at www.ladueguitars.com
@@thepragmaticluthierMartin also offered cherry wood on their SWD Smartwood guitars they built for a few years. The back, sides, and neck were “sustainable” cherry wood.
If you want the strongest part of the tree, for the hardest woods, get slabs sawn from the BASE of the tree. it must hold the tree up in winds and storms. It receives the greatest stresses throughout the tree's life. The higher you ascend up the tree, the less stress it has endured....and the weaker (respectively) the wood. In wooded areas are usually MANY small private sawmills, and you can work with these folks to get the woods you want. You can dry woods easily in a small shed with a portable heater.
Have you ever considered bois d arc (also known as orange osage) for fingerboard and bridges?It is extremely hard and durable.
Interesting and I agree--for a steel string the options are soo many--but for a classical the marketplace is defined for a rosewood guitar---the tradition goes back Torres ---a classical guitar made out of a alternative wood will be a uphill battle to sell it for a similar price of a comparable rosewood guitar. Also I wish I could have heard some of the guitars in this video.
It is true that the (serious) classical guitar community seems to be retentively adhered to the Rosewoods and to a much lesser extent, highly figured Maple. While there may be some slowly evolving acceptance of other materials, it's all okay. While I admire truly fine concert guitars and the skill of those who play them, let the cork sniffers have their way. It's common to equate "new or different" with inferiority.
True but Torres used maple , cypress, 4 piece backs, whatever he had, teak even. C F Martin followed the classical guitar tradition, even using Spanish cedar for minor parts or necks sometimes. Martin still does.
Thank you so much for the video! I’m currently building a parlor guitar with Black Locust back and sides. Also was thinking of using Black Locust for the bridge, trim, fingerboard and arm rest. But like you said, because of the lighter color I don’t think it will contrast well. What do you think of staining those items? I guess I’m mostly concerned about staining the fingerboard- Again, thank you for the videos, I really enjoy them!
I personally would not stain a fingerboard because your fingers and the strings will quickly rub through the stain. As I'm sure you know, that effect will be greater if a light wood is stained as opposed to a wood that is already darker, as in Walnut, possibly Cherry, etc. You mentioned Black Locust. I have seen many examples of it that may be dark enough to take a stain with pretty good results. I have, however, stained a bridge in rare circumstances with complete success. Most importantly, I think you should experiment and follow your intuitions. You may very well find techniques, results or style that is all your own.
@@thepragmaticluthier that was my thought as well- Have you ever lightly ran a torch over your wood to bring out the grain pattern a little better? Maybe something like that on the fretboard would help darken???
I love black locust. If you ever get around to it, mind telling me how you would go about building a guitar with it?
It's as simple and direct as building a guitar from any other wood, but it even seems to bend almost with impunity. There are not tricks or impediments. It makes a KILLER guitar.
Just saw this. Liked at 1:28 subscribed at 2:01
Thank you. I'm frequently perceived as radical, dismissive of standard practice or contrary and sometimes it ruffles some feathers. I like that.
One of the things I find interesting about hickory is how few pores there are in the endgrain, and how small the pores are. If you look up microscope images of hickory you’ll see what I’m talking about. The pores are few and far between compared to basically anything else. I haven’t done any tests or anything but in theory I feel like it would make excellent necks or fretboards.
All science and diffuse porosity aside, Hickory makes an excellent back and rim, It will make a terrific neck, albeit heavy.
A Hickory fingerboard is a definite if color suits the user. I wish more of it was seen in guitars.
I have portable sawmill I don't have a kiln but you can find someone that does I have stacks of lumber. I can mill a 30" log but quarter saw need about maybe 16" log heftiest cut is 6" deep
I recently found your channel, and am binge watching all videos! Great stuff! But you should really be looking at modulus of elasticity, instead of hardness. The latter will be good for dent or scratch resistance, but probably not much more. Elasticity vs density will be much more important for sound characteristics, I think. Black locust is incredibly stiff, for example, and yew is incredibly elastic/flexible. Brazilian rosewood is nearly twice as hard as black locust, but black locust is stiffer, and lighter. What would that do to tone? And about the black locust fingerboard - BL will ebonize really well because of the high tannin content, maybe try that for a fingerboard with BL? Just a thought! Anyway, just some food for thought. Thanks for the great content. p.s. I also really appreciate your views on logging, and choices for using local woods.
I'm not sure Brazilian rosewood is heavier than black locust. About the same. Its harder but not a whole lot. Other dalbergias are much heavier than Brazilian (d. melanoxylon). Cocobolo, Honduras, and African Blackwood all very heavy.
You're right about MOE. And BL. But don't tell anybody.
@@nicholasgeorge7825 I’m just going off the wood database information. You are right that the density/weight is not much different, 0.84 (BR) vs. 0.77 (BL), so definitely individual samples overlap. But BR has a Janka hardness of 2790lbf vs BL’s 1700. Of course there is tremendous variation in nature, but ai would consider that a reasonable difference! Shows you how hard BR is, because BL is already damn hard!
@@paulkozowyk Thank you so much for that personal reply. I wonder about those BR Janka numbers. I don't think that it's that hard. Cocobolo yes, very hard. Kingwood ditto. But the divots you see on old fingerboards! IDK. And the density is not that high either. I'm going by my limited experience with veneer and bits and pieces. They could be confusing D. nigra with another rosewood (Amazon rosewood?)./ Let's see some real data, anyone?
hickory and Oak ebonizes really pretty and dark with light streaks. mahogany is pretty too. cedar makes a great top.
@@jeffhildreth9244 my Takamine FXC has a Cedar top and Daowood back and sides. It's sold me as a softwood for tops assuming you find a good grain dried and stable as anything.. Spruce isn't exactly different and Sitka is top choice.
@@jeffhildreth9244 so you haven't had success.. I fail to care. My Takamine from 1993 seems to be holding out just fine...
I'm surprised at your statement about Red Cedar (Thuja plicata), especially considering that Ignacio Fleta and many other renowned classical builders did and do use it very successfully. Several American steel string builder, among them James Olsen use it regularly. I doubt that The Ramirez family or any other quality builder would seek out Western Red Cedar purely for economic reasons. Thank you, however, for your comment, especially for describing what you've been doing with guitar wood for fifty years.
I totally agree. I think there are a couple things at play in the desire for "exotic woods'. Manufacturers like to use "premium woods' because they feel they can charge more, and it's an easy way to create the belief that one model if "better' than the other. The one with rosewood back and sides must be "better" than the model with mahogany back and sides, right? At least walnut is becoming more accepted as a quality wood for back and sides. On the consumer side, beyond the fact that most guitar players are very conservative in regards to all aspects of guitar making. 'Martin don't use hickory", they might say. There is also an unfamiliarity with many domestic tone woods. When I had a baritone ukulele made for me, by Bonanza Ukuleles, Big Falls, MN, using a cherry top and walnut back and sides, I was a little nervous about how the cherry would sound, (but I trusted the luthier). It turned out great, with a lovely tone, that has continued to improve over the past few years. I had never played an instrument made from cherry, so it required a but of a leap of faith.
I appreciate your comment about a Cherry top. It has motivated me to build a couple experiments with deciduous tops.
@@thepragmaticluthier I hope it goes well.
The Harmony Company in Chicago thought this way. It's my understanding they used mostly solid sycamore and birch to build their guitars back in the 60's. The build quality wasn't the best but at least they used American wood!
Harmony had a long history that went way back to Lyon & Healy. they were even once owned by Sears & Roebuck. Harmony was, at one time the largest manufacturer of guitars in the country, specializing in low priced instruments. They cared little or not at all about sound. Their goal was to mass produce low price instruments for sale under their own name as well as dozens of others. They manufactured predominantly, in the cheapest, most reliably available materials they could get.
Okay, I'm going to try saying this from my heart, and be as honest as I can. I have NOT built a guitar yet. I must have tried at least 300 guitars that are commercially built, anywhere from stores in TN, MI FLA, LA, with prices from $500.00 to 7,000.00. I would put aside the looks, and the sweetest sounding to "My Ears", was always some kind of solid Rosewood and Spruce, (or other pines). The Walnut guitars, (that I played), sounded like the notes fell out of the sound holes, instead of having any projection. Koa, (except for a solid Koa electric 12 string that was so heavy it made my shoulder hurt ), I experienced a lack of projection as well.. I was told that the "sound board", (top), was the most important. I tried a solid maple acoustic 12 string, that the entire guitar was maple, and was not satisfied. (Beautiful guitar as far as looks and feel of the neck).
It is NOT the look, (although we all love a beautiful guitar), but the sound.
I am a medically retired carpenter/cabinetmaker. I am going to try 2 different kit guitars, as I put together more "luthier specific" tools. I should mention that I have lost the right leg below the knee, (NO SYMPATHY), as an explanation, so that some will understand I must build from a wheelchair. I will have to use wood already thickness sawn and sanded. My work will be in my house and I can finish sand and spray lacquer, glue up ect.
I love the beautiful guitars you are working on, and maybe someday I can use those woods as well. I now live in MI
Hello Kevin look what came up on my U tube page.Enjoyed the video and subscribed,Keep up the good work I'll be checking in on ya.B
Thanks for your comment. Send me a message through my website. I'd like to keep in touch.
I've always been curious about white ash bodies. It's mentioned here and at the Luthier's website, but i've never seen or heard of it being used. It's very close to rock maple in hardness.
Iv'e done at least 25 guitars in White Ash. I find it to be a first class material. It bends well, works quite predictably, takes an excellent;ent finish and is stable. It makes a superior neck as well. In general, it can contribute a crispness to tone and and can be quite percussive. You can see a few pictures of White Ash guitars on my website if you care to look. www.ladueguitars.com.
I Have no Idea where you call Home ! But I do know , I've found a friend ! I've be picking , Playing , Pullin a Bow, Slidin a Dobro , playin Piano , But if it's American and Got strings , I can hold my own ! I'll Play or pick some stringed Instrument for a couple hrs Daily , It's like I almost have to ,,, it's in my Blood ! I Live just east of Asheville N.C. , And your outlook on " Things, Stuff, " is how I grew up ,,, It's always " why can't you , or why would you want to " ! I've been a Carpenter all my Life , There wasn't a choice, if we needed a shed , we built it , a another bedroom , we built it . And mechanically , if it's tore up ,,,find whats broke and fix it ! I'm disabled & retired now and after 9 back surgeries , I think i'm finally as good as it's gonna get ! I've got a implant in my back and wire's running inside my spine , and comes with a remote ! Lol,,, But I build Cabinets and Shelves for people and finally decided, I was gonna build my own acoustic/ Flattop ! But I'm determined , every piece is coming out of the hills of the Appalachian Mountains ! I chosen my back and sides as American Black Walnut ! I've got a Buddy , that deals in Triple A+ lumber , And " We" Are Actually walking his excavator into the woods and digging up Walnut , Maple , Locust, White and Red Oak stumps ! And Harvesting some of the most figured wood youv'e ever seen ! Hemlock and Spruce , That's gonna make Gorgeous tops ! But Finding you on You Tube was a God send for me ! Absolutely Love your channel ! Very sensible , Level headed , problem solver ! TY so much for your Vid !
You're very welcome. I like what you are doing with stumps. I wish I had access to some in my area.
What are your thoughts on Walnut back & sides w/ sitka top ladder braced ? I have an unbranded guitar with I believe is walnut sides …, sounds wonderful but cheaply built .
Walnut is, of course, beautiful and my experience has been that everyone wants to fall in love with a walnut guitar. I personally think other Northeastern species can do much more acoustically. As for the combination and bracing pattern you mention, I cannot comment. That combination, or any other, could be as easily disastrous as it could be delightful. Construction means a lot more than the materials when it comes to making a pleasing sound.
Wow Kevin, as a woodworker I share your thinking and really enjoyed this episode. Nothing else to add today that would benefit the discussion, except this makes me want to go out to the shop and look through my stash for ideas about something nice to build. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
@@thepragmaticluthier Update: I found some nice ash, cherry and black walnut out in the storage rack. The walnut has enough quartered vertical grain to get some nice neck sections and a fretboard. I could see a neck with a walnut skunk stripe. Also found an interesting pile of sweetgum I'd totally forgotten. That stuff has beautiful figures in the grain and is harder than Chinese math. Anyway, this has me thinking about a project for Summer. It would be an electric but don't hate me!
I believe Antonio made his out of maple and spruce. He made his kinda long and narrow not (exaggerating here...) like the modern, ten feet wide, CF Martin guitars. That guy knew something and did good work. I always liked the idea of walnut and spruce. I think part of the popularity of rosewood is its inherent beauty or intrinsic beauty. My understanding is that Antonio's one remaining, playable guitar is worth about 16 million; obviously attributable to who made it and maybe not whether it sounds as good as a CF Martin...
Torres made around 155 guitars. I haven't been able to find out how many exist, but I'm sure there are several. I know that the "Romero" family own at least one and i have seen a short video of Richard Brune playing one that he had restored. I believe there are other in some museums around the world.
Im kinda done trying to build guitars, but thinking about building with North American woods makes me want to try again. I'm so over rosewood and mahogany
Get yourself some nice wood of your choice. It doesn't NEED to be quarter sawn and it WILL be LESS expensive that all that exotic stuff. The lower cost will help reduce the pucker factor because you materials can be easily replaced. Please try it again and enjoy making yourself a terrific guitar:)
@@thepragmaticluthier speaking of pragmatic, my first guitar has a neck built from a $6 mahogany board from a home center. I attached it with a stainless steel bolt and a wing nut through the strap button. It's held for 10+ years and never had to tighten it!
Over here in the UK, some luthiers are trying to uses just UK timbers (most notable Rosie Heydenrich). The big trouble has been tops because spruce and many other softwoods grow to fast here - they are like cardboard! Western Red Cedar is great, but I've also used cedar of Lebanon and larch. For backs and sides we are better off for choice, most notably 3000 year old bog oak (costly, but worth it), sycamore (which you all call maple) and London Plane (which you all call sycamore). This last one is inexpensive, works easily, has a beautiful figure and a tone somewhere between maple and mahogany.
I am aware of Rosie Heydenrich and admire her use of materials very much. Here, we do refer to Maple as Maple and London Plane seems to be an alternate name for Sycamore. They both make terrific guitars and I agree with you, that Sycamore works very predictably and in the quartered section, is truly magnificent in appearance. Maple is commonly available here and is an important commercial specie. Sycamore, however does not enjoy nearly the same appeal. Although ubiquitous in the east, it is seldom harvested for lumber.
we generally refer to Maple grown in the UK as Sycamore and maple grown in the US as maple. Both acers. London Plane is a a hybrid (Platanus x hispanica); wonderful stuff @@thepragmaticluthier
@@thepragmaticluthier Sycamore in Europe and sycamore in USA are not the same wood at all, they are not even closely related; in Europe sycamore is simply another name for the common European maple while American sycamores are any of four different plane tree species.
European sycamore is the wood used for neck, back and sides of all high quality violin family instruments and I think we can assume that people like Stradivarius, Guarnerius and the Amatis knew a thing or two about which wood to choose.
Do you have an opinion on soundboards? I’ve made a few with poplar soundboards and it’s great, it actually has similar hardness and specific gravity to most spruces. Grated you can get stuff which is a bit too soft but when quartered it’s fine and has some nice grey green shading.
You may enjoy watching my video on guitar tops.
@@thepragmaticluthier I did yes.