In regards support, when checking out the army lists I found an error in the Austrian one (Grenz units were kisted as having a "Grenz" rule, but it was missing) and used their link to let them know. They fixed this within 24 hours! I've never seen such rapid response from a game publisher. Usually you get a "Thanks. We'll look into it." response a ferw weeks later.
Yea this is one of many reasons we are pretty optimistic about the future potential of this game as more players discover it and as the design team keeps fleshing it out
the updates pdf say it all. game was published on September 20th. (at least that is when they made a facebook post about it) version 1.1 was out on the 21st of September 1.2 - 22nd of September 1.3 - 14th October 1.4 - 31st October 1.5 - 5th January Now the first two updates might have been covered with having a few more friends look it true and find the mistakes and typos... But on the other hand, this way their fans feel involved and this is good support.
I will say this: I don’t have any napoleonic miniatures and have never played a game from that time period, but after you guys told me it was free, I grabbed an old Risk set, glued the pieces to some spare bases I had, and played perhaps the cheapest Napoleonic Wargame to ever exist, and I had a great time! 😂 My only complaint is that it took a while to figure out the formations. I am a total novice in napoleonic warfare, and I think the rules weren’t as geared for people like me. Still, good game, and I’ll be playing it again I’m sure
Risk pieces is exactly what I would use too. These Roman numeral pieces are what my brother and I used as miniatures back in the 80s playing d&d battle system. I = infantry X = artillery III = cavalry V = officers/heroes
I have to say, I'm a old Napoleonic player and over the last 30 years I find myself less likely to dive into a 3 day game rule set and look for more of a 3-4 hour game. That of course reduces the amount of grizzle you can put in a game. We call it shoelace detail. The rules are so detailed you know how they tied their laces. I really like the idea of adjusting the Fate table. You can really add some flavor to the armies. I think there is room to add more Army characteristics in the Special Rules section as well. I haven't played V&F yet, but you've put the bug in my ear. Damn you!!!!
let's be honest, your rules review points system has always been skewed to the grognards, which is fine, its what you all are. You like period specific rules with period specific flavor, your channel, your game, your choice. What I really appreciate about your group on this is the complete honesty about these rules and the feel of something different as you reviewed it. I love the fact that you also recognize something that doesn't fit your criteria also can be a game worth playing, and even offered your own free fixes to it. I have been playing wargames since the late 70's early 80's as a child, and find that nowadays its more important to get in a game, and that usually means something that moves fast and flows without reading the rulebook every two minutes. If i would ever get into the insanity that is Napoleonic's, and that's a big maybe, this sounds great! FREE+Perrys=WIN.
Excellent rule review. Thank you. I would totally support an extra category in your reviews to cover enjoyment and replayability. I think that’s a good idea.
I'd add a chit pull system - Fate Cards for both sides first, then activating individual brigades, sequence determined randomly. Or, I would intermix the steps - player A shoots, player B shoots - player A actions, player B actions.
Another exceptional review! I really like this game as it allowed me to be able to break out my 15s in about 13+ years. I'm glad you guys beat me to the punch on the revise QRS, as I too was going to put a better one together. As I have never played Black Powder before, I was hung up on the shooting mechanic on how many doce and so forth. It wasn't until i saw another game play video from someone else, that the light turned on. I enjoyed your play-through video earlier too. I too am excited about other expansion like the ACW...tone of 15s there too. Thanks again.
Thank you, David and Greg, for another insightful rule review. I think that the heart of a successful set of rules is one which reflects the nature of war of a given period by the very nature of the game mechanics themselves - and in that the Perry brothers and Johnson have succeeded. Like you I think that the rules have scope for development without jeopardising elegant simplicity. The rules are noteworthy not just for the harried middle-aged fathers, but, importantly, for children who want to learn how to war-game without being overwhelmed and frustrated.
I see these as a perfect set if you have the armies and table and want to invite a diverse group of players in for a big game. The rules, after all, can be read by the players over their breakfast before they leave for the game!
Spot on Review guys, we have used it twice so far and like it, you are correct it does need a few tweaks. Interested in your Napoleon in Egypt games, please tell me if it is a campaign!
I think the main reason why the final note is surprisingly low for a game that you enjoy a lot, it's probably that review has been made too early. It would be great to have an other review like in one year or so, after it has been reprinted, if the cards give more historical flavours and if the support is definitely great. Thanks for the video, great as always !
A very objective and relevant review. Nonetheless, for a free game, it is extremely promising and will surely grow in support. By the way, I'm SO MUCH looking forward your take one Napoléon's Campaign of Egypt, one of the most legendary adventure in military history ! Greetings from France :)
Really appreciate this review. I will absolutely be checking this out. I have been looking for an easy, low stress game for Napoleonics. Even BP is more involved than I want, specifically since I have to learn the rules and convince my friends to play it. And I want an easy to follow, easy to remember rule set and this might be it
As you doubtless know, a revised version of the rules has now been published, one year after the original set, though rather than being vastly expanded as with Never Mind the Billhooks, it is in the same format as the original and comes in the latest issue of WI (meaning it is still technically free). While it no doubt incorporates the various revisions made since v1 was released, both before and after your review, I don’t know whether it is set out differently or addresses the other criticisms you made. As I believe the rules themselves are still only four pages long, this seems unlikely. I hope you will take a look at it and tell us how close it comes to meeting your expectations. P.S. One correction for Greg: while Jervis Johnson did have some input into Black Powder, the main author was another GW alumnus, Rick Priestley.
I like that you two referenced a number of your comments to the design philosophy of the rules. In the abstract, there is no point criticising a rules set for something that it does not set out to do.
Precisely! And it’s really helpful when a designer/author provides some kind of commentary about the intent. VF is a great example of a game with ample designer notes
@@LittleWarsTV I reckon it's the single most important part of any rules; why does the author think they need to exist, what will they do that others don't and how will they approach the basic issues of all wargames while perhaps trying something new. As one of you said, it would be interesting to revisit the rules after a year. This is a good rule of thumb for any 'review' of rules. (Not that I've done it myself)
Being new to the genre of Napoleonics I knew there was a happy medium between ez-play rules and the 400 page tomes like General de Brigade. They have managed to retain the essential elements of combined arms, formation and maneuver while maintaining simplicity (as much as possible for Nappies). Hopefully this will introduce many new players to an exciting period for gaming. Experienced gamers will enjoy this for the homebrew rules potential as you can tailor it to fit more of what you want in a game.
One of the pluses was the way Jervis welcomed the imput from player to improve the army lists from historical information. Like with the Portuguese list. PS: it misses an American List for 1812 war. Would any one care to submit a proposel to Jervis? ;)
Though I don't know how well this passes the "why do these rules exist" rubric that seems to come up more and more, making it free goes a long way. As you all say, it's better than black powder. Which isn't a higher bar. I wouldn't pay for black powder but I would pay 0 dollars to look through slightly improved black powder.
I actually found an old Airfix Waterloo set that comes with some French, British and Prussian figures, and I might just base them and give this game system a whirl :) Also, have you guys ever taken a look at the old Junior Generals system? It's designed for print-and-play but adapts well for miniatures too.
Good review and as usual, you fellas put a lot of thought into it. I suggest that your scores are lower becasue you have a tendency to review rigidly against your own parameters and that drives you to judge rules at time against what they are not rather than what they are. Thanks for creating yet another fine video.
Thanks lads, enjoyed your review and we’ll be giving these rules a run out in our group I m sure. Look forward to seeing your Egyptian campaign an all. Keep up the good work. Cheers
Thanks for another interesting review - sufficiently intriguing for me to download my own copy! Also, I'm not surprised the units are figure heavy - after all, the Perrys do have a vested interest in you acquiring as many as their lovely figures as possible. 😄 p.s. On your last point, a possible solution going forward could be to simply award a star rating at the end of your review, to signify how much you enjoyed playing the rules and how enthusiastic you are about playing with the rules under review again. This would save you having to revise your current scoring system and enable viewers to continue to compare final scores with other rules systems you have reviewed in the past.
French in Egypt is very interesting especially the later uniforms after Bonaparte's escape to France. I'm very much interested how the Turks or Mamluks are rated in your game and how the famous large square formations will work.
Well hopefully Jervis and the Perry’s release an Ottoman list so we don’t have to make one up ourselves! There are lots of mechanics baked into their system that would allow for massive Ottoman armies of relatively low quality. You’d want the Mameluke cavalry to be high impact but give them a weak Tenacity rating to reflect their unwillingness to stick around much
@@LittleWarsTV The more I read about the Mamluks the less certain I am about what their military capacity was. By way of example, what use did they make of their unit of Russian POW / slaves - did they retain any European identity or become instructors (such as those that helped train their Albanians) or just absorb them into other formations?
Interesting review video. I fully understand your quandary in reviewing a short, free ruleset - you want to be consistent with your other reviews, but also fair. I also understand the Perry's are figure manufacturers, so they want to facilitate that aspect (e.g. large units). Personally my interest in Naps has waned considerably over the years, being replaced by SYW in particular - for example far less fiddly rules like dealing with clouds of skirmishers. I would be interested to see a V&F variant for SYW, but unfortunately I think it's one period the Perry's don't do.
Presentation is excellent. Having been used to Phil Barker style rules it is simple to understand and an easy read. It is not necessary for eye candy. The text presentation could have been illustrated by their figure collection but what is the point of that? We print these at home and B&W A4 is spot on. If you are familiar with Wargames Vault then concise pdf printable rules is the way to go.
I agree with the score. I use the Epic Napoleon miniatures. I'm on my second game of 188 point of Prussian and 182 points of French. Having a great time. I would love it if they do ACW.
It's kinda funny because the rules seem to be as simple as the Perry's Travel Battle system but with a little touch of Black Powder to give it some detail. A game that's in between both. I like it, and can't wait to try it! But like you guys I'm still trying to paint up my 6mm units. 😆 Great review, guys! It just keeps urging me to hurry up and get my Armies painted up. 👏 👏 👏 👏
I'm still trying to find the right system to play. I have 28mm figures but only a smaller 5x3 foot dining table. Trying to find a game that would work for a single brigade plus a little cavalry and artillery support that would work on a smaller table that size.
I want a game like a two and a half hour competition game with army lists to cater for that. Players need skills for :- a) pick a nationality. b) choose an army from that national list. c) plan a game strategy. d) formulate tactics to win within the time allowed. e) minimise casualties and maximise objectives gained. To do this in the UK a sheet of hardboard can be purchased in size 8 feet X 4 feet so the game has to be set for a minimum of 6 feet X 4 feet it is possible if supports arrive at the latest by move 2. It’s a fast fun game and Perry miniatures are good quality and fairly cheap . While building an army just mount the rear rank on a 4 figure base for infantry (hits are for bases so number of figures don’t matter).
If you want to do this economically, it’s a perfect game for Peter Dennis’s paper soldiers I used the peninsular war book from Helion to test drive different Napoleonic rules. You can photocopy as many units as you want, in any scale you want. Very flexible. I did this for General d’armee & Valour & fortitude, I like both. This helped to inform my decision on which 3d miniatures to go for, composition of the armies which scale to go for. Looking forwards to GDA 2 because that looks a lot slicker & smoother too than version 1, whilst keeping the good stuff.
Thanks guys for the review I have played several battles using them and enjoyed each one especially with little flicking of rules book pages back n forth in search of a particular rule . Also for those that don’t get to game too much thereby forgetting rules this is a godsend as it’s easily remembered . Provides fast games with Fate card system that I like too. Two things can you please provide the QRS sheet that ye have developed and any review /AAR in the pipeline using Soldiers of Napoleon ruleset ?
I'd like to see the QRS they made as well, would make me more likely to try this out. If only they had a Free Stuff section on their LWTV website... ;)
As an “Old Grognard” myself I also am looking for the faster playing rulesets these days. I play one of the “other games that shall not be named” and love it; but, it is an intellectual grind to keep all the nuts and bolts straight! I haven’t brought V&F to the table yet; but, after looking through the rules I am also a little put off by the very fluid movement mechanic. That brings back memories of Warmaster Ancients. I’m also not very sanguine about the LOS rules. A unit can see another if just one figure in the front rank can see at least one other figure without passing within 1” of another unit. That’s a little too forgiving for a 24-36 figure battalion. All that being said, I am intrigued enough by the ruleset to give it a whirl. My thinking is to zoom out one level and make the maneuvering element a brigade rather than a battalion. That way I can recreate battles with a couple of corps per side and do larger battles. Rey even-handed review guys - thanks!!
For a light entry game that is meant to be a core a framework the historical flavor are great because you feel like a commander in the Napoleonic to civil war era of combat! Yes the units and cards could have more fluff but for a brand new light game it's good enough... Like you gave more historical points to games that feel generic enough to simulate any era of war becuase of how light weight they are but this won't work in modern or ancent/medieval times at least with out twiking it so I really like it and would give it closer to 70 then you guys have. Still great review and as a game dev I'm taking notes.
Thanks for the video. As Greg said I also don't generally like IGYG systems. There at least needs to be some sort of reaction available to other player. IGYG seems to me to be totally unrealistic. I can't imagine any real battles where the opposing side just sat back and watched as they were shot at, charged, out flanked, etc. For example, would you play chess if White could move every piece before Black could move one?
Had a look. I don’t understand why horse artillery has half the Range of foot artillery, ie British horse artillery has 6 & 9 inch guns as did the foot artillery.
I might have missed it, but I would have been very interested in how the rules handle skirmishers and attack columns, which are generally the more unique and trickier part of Nappy rules. If you don't have adequate rules for these two categories, you really are not playing "Napoleonics". (Guess I will need to watch the earlier vid on game play.)
I like Napoleonics, I have played Napoleons Battles system in the past and enjoy that level/scale Ie Corp/div with Bde being the base units. Like Fire and fury , i dont like Age of Eagles as its too much like Fire fury and not enough Napoleonic flavour for my liking. I have just purchased "Blucher" my Sam Mustafa just before you started featuring this set. I was wondering if you had tried or had comments on the Blucher game.
Ya'll are spoilt by new(er) sets of rules! 😜 Enjoyed them. For people wanting to try the period, simply cut bases from cardstock, write the appropriate number on them and off you go to playtest land! 🎅 Would love to see ya'll try, Drums and Shakos - Large Battles from Ganesha Games. Though, you will want to allow artillery to have a zone of fire equal to three battery widths (the battery plus its width to either side) and allow cavalry to charge infantry in any state the infantry is in. These, because "as written" artillery and cavalry are inflexible, weak and not representative of the period or their historical effectiveness.
Played this last week. I strongly agree on the qrs... It's useless. Absolutely fun game, learned to play, setup and did a small (solo) battle in maybe 4 hours.
Thanks, I enjoyed your analysis of the rules. I have played several games and I like the system. In some ways, I feel you miss the point of why the rules exists. This was just a bunch of people looking for a way to get a big convention game moving to a conclusion at the show by making it fast moving and not having loads of rules that the players need to look up all the time. In that regard the rules are hugely successful. They took the decision to share the rules with everyone else for free. That does not put any onus on the rules / writer to take into account that my table is only a 6’ x 4’ or I only have enough figures for a couple of brigades per side etc. So I think the rules excelled at what they designed for, it is a separate issue as to whether we can make those rules work with our own circumstances. I should also add that the author gives unstinting support to questions asked and ensuring that the army lists and rules revisions are kept on top of. I do think that your ending remarks sum up the essence of this and that the scoring system does not particularly serve the ethos behind the rules as well as it does with other mainstream stuff.
Fluff and “period chrome” are things we often comment on in Presentation. It’s the window dressing. Our category for Historical Flavor is more about whether a game makes you feel like you’re in that era, facing period appropriate decisions with armies that behave historically.
We have Pendraken armies in several historical periods, though not yet Napoleonics! Yet. I stress that word… VF is a scale agnostic game so you could play in any figure scale.
I am surprised you lampoon using a table the size of a pig pong table, I think this is a great size for a game, you can reach more than halfway accross and it folds up.
Seems a lot are looking for the "holy grail of wargame rules" I suppose being a solo player I am luck,I have found the rules I love know them almost of by heart,the ideal is playabilty and realise,thats what woekes for me
Kind of left field but the black powder game I've been liking the most recently is Turnip28. Weird, fun, and it even gets the basics of period down pretty well. Also free as a download!
Looks to me like it's a ''beer & pretzels'' version of Black Powder (which in itself is a bit more ''beer & pretzels'' than I am used to). Probably a great way to introduce newbies to historical wargaming. There is no getting away from the requirement of significant troop numbers for Napoleonics - that is a core basic of the period.
Agreed, Roy. It’s lite Black Powder, and remarkably, VF provides just as good of a game experience (arguably better) in a fraction of the Black Powder page count.
4 and 3 for presentation? Come on guys, hammering a free rule set because they don't have lots of fluff and pictures? Gregg - you were 'shocked'? Crikey! We need more sets that aren't full of padding - pretty pictures don't make a good rule set. And they're still developing online? That sounds like a big positive to me. Interesting comments on the QRS. I never really expect a QRS to give me everything I need to play a game. I learn that from the rules and then the QRS is there to remind me of the salient points like distances and various other game numbers. I'm not a fan of cards in historical wargames, and I agree that the fate decks fail to add much period flavour. But for a free set support is good and they deserved more credit for that. In mechanics I thought the skirmish rules were a bit of a cop-out. Overall I thnk you were a bit harsh. But thanks for your review, which as always was cogent and thought provoking.
As usual, the Perry brothers (who are figure producers who own tons of Napoleonic miniatures, and profit from others buying their products) made a rule set where you need lots and lots of figures to play the game. You yourselves have lots of figures (or access to them) and belong to a club where painting is done rapidly and with lots of hands to help. I think this is a blind spot for folks like you and the Perry brothers; in that to me a simple set of rules should also have a low barrier to entry; and this "free" set does not. In the Learn to Play Valor and Fortitude video, at 0:56, you described the learning game as a "small" game with five brigade sized formations for the Austrians. Each brigade has around 100 figures in it; so five brigades means you need a total of 500 figures for one side! The French also had five brigades, which is another 500 figures, so you need a total of 1,000 figures to play a "small scenario"! Presumably a medium scenario would need 2,000 figures and a large one 3,000 to 5,000? This is not feasible for many players, so when I realized that 1,000 figures were needed for a "small" game, I was immediately turned off. Painting 1,000 figures to play a small scenario was a non-starter, even for a "free" game. I think you would be wise to add accessibility to your list of categories when you rank a game. It will help you take into consideration that blind spot (prejudice) that you have developed because you have access to so many miniatures. See the Learn to play video at 0:56: ruclips.net/video/CW9m6GHZBEQ/видео.html
As written, it does call for lots of figures. Hardly a blind spot for us, as we specifically called this out in the review and reduced our scores for the Playability as a result. You also don’t need to use that many figures per regiment-something else explicitly noted in our discussion. The number of models you use in your regiments has no bearing on the mechanics of gameplay, so it would be easy to reduce the counts. You do, however, need a good number of overall regiments due to how quickly they melt away.
@@LittleWarsTV That is a fair response as far as the review score goes; however, you did say it was a "small game" (with about 1,000 figures). See the Learn to play video at 0:56: ruclips.net/video/CW9m6GHZBEQ/видео.html
I found the rules very.. uninspiring? Old wine in new bottles. Considering the many new(er) rules out there instead like Et Sans Resultat, Battle Command (Field of Battle), Soldiers of Napoleon, or Bataille Empire (of Art de la Guerre renown).
Agreed that there’s nothing entirely innovative here, but it’s hard to even compare VF to the games you mentioned considering this is free and just 4 pages. Those other games are way more involved. And some players will be attracted by the extra complexity. But for new players or casual players, it’s hard to argue against a free 4 pager that works
Another battalion for units Napoleonic game? Seems like we already have so many of them. How much different is this from Black Powder? Thanks for the review but I'll give it a pass.
A very poorly done review that completely misses the point of these rules and the great opportunity they offer gaming groups. But you folks are too busy with yourselves to see beyond your very limited narrative.
@@LittleWarsTV I watched the entire review and found it as stated. You fellows completely missed the point and the benefits of this set of rules. I was told that LW TV was the gold standard in gaming information and reviews. You certainly are no where near seeing the big picture only concentrating on a narrow viewpoint of gosh there are not any pictures or graphics.
In regards support, when checking out the army lists I found an error in the Austrian one (Grenz units were kisted as having a "Grenz" rule, but it was missing) and used their link to let them know. They fixed this within 24 hours! I've never seen such rapid response from a game publisher. Usually you get a "Thanks. We'll look into it." response a ferw weeks later.
Yea this is one of many reasons we are pretty optimistic about the future potential of this game as more players discover it and as the design team keeps fleshing it out
yeah i reported some as well and on one ocasion 2 days later they had solved it
the updates pdf say it all.
game was published on September 20th. (at least that is when they made a facebook post about it)
version 1.1 was out on the 21st of September
1.2 - 22nd of September
1.3 - 14th October
1.4 - 31st October
1.5 - 5th January
Now the first two updates might have been covered with having a few more friends look it true and find the mistakes and typos...
But on the other hand, this way their fans feel involved and this is good support.
I will say this: I don’t have any napoleonic miniatures and have never played a game from that time period, but after you guys told me it was free, I grabbed an old Risk set, glued the pieces to some spare bases I had, and played perhaps the cheapest Napoleonic Wargame to ever exist, and I had a great time! 😂
My only complaint is that it took a while to figure out the formations. I am a total novice in napoleonic warfare, and I think the rules weren’t as geared for people like me. Still, good game, and I’ll be playing it again I’m sure
Risk pieces is exactly what I would use too. These Roman numeral pieces are what my brother and I used as miniatures back in the 80s playing d&d battle system.
I = infantry
X = artillery
III = cavalry
V = officers/heroes
Dude....simple and genius.
Nice to see other people use Risk pieces for Napoleonic.
I'm currently printing paper minis in 10mm to try this one and historic in general.
I have to say, I'm a old Napoleonic player and over the last 30 years I find myself less likely to dive into a 3 day game rule set and look for more of a 3-4 hour game. That of course reduces the amount of grizzle you can put in a game. We call it shoelace detail. The rules are so detailed you know how they tied their laces. I really like the idea of adjusting the Fate table. You can really add some flavor to the armies. I think there is room to add more Army characteristics in the Special Rules section as well. I haven't played V&F yet, but you've put the bug in my ear. Damn you!!!!
Well you can’t beat the price! Definitely gives a good game experience
A 28mm Napoleonic miniatures game deserves BONUS POINTS, just because the figures/ table presentation is so BEAUTIFUL
let's be honest, your rules review points system has always been skewed to the grognards, which is fine, its what you all are. You like period specific rules with period specific flavor, your channel, your game, your choice. What I really appreciate about your group on this is the complete honesty about these rules and the feel of something different as you reviewed it. I love the fact that you also recognize something that doesn't fit your criteria also can be a game worth playing, and even offered your own free fixes to it. I have been playing wargames since the late 70's early 80's as a child, and find that nowadays its more important to get in a game, and that usually means something that moves fast and flows without reading the rulebook every two minutes. If i would ever get into the insanity that is Napoleonic's, and that's a big maybe, this sounds great! FREE+Perrys=WIN.
Excellent rule review. Thank you. I would totally support an extra category in your reviews to cover enjoyment and replayability. I think that’s a good idea.
Yes, I agree. These are very important.
As a newcomer to miniature wargaming, with little time to play, I can't wait to give this system a try.
I'd add a chit pull system - Fate Cards for both sides first, then activating individual brigades, sequence determined randomly.
Or, I would intermix the steps - player A shoots, player B shoots - player A actions, player B actions.
Another exceptional review! I really like this game as it allowed me to be able to break out my 15s in about 13+ years. I'm glad you guys beat me to the punch on the revise QRS, as I too was going to put a better one together. As I have never played Black Powder before, I was hung up on the shooting mechanic on how many doce and so forth. It wasn't until i saw another game play video from someone else, that the light turned on. I enjoyed your play-through video earlier too. I too am excited about other expansion like the ACW...tone of 15s there too. Thanks again.
Thank you, David and Greg, for another insightful rule review. I think that the heart of a successful set of rules is one which reflects the nature of war of a given period by the very nature of the game mechanics themselves - and in that the Perry brothers and Johnson have succeeded. Like you I think that the rules have scope for development without jeopardising elegant simplicity.
The rules are noteworthy not just for the harried middle-aged fathers, but, importantly, for children who want to learn how to war-game without being overwhelmed and frustrated.
I see these as a perfect set if you have the armies and table and want to invite a diverse group of players in for a big game. The rules, after all, can be read by the players over their breakfast before they leave for the game!
Best thing about free rules, especially 4 page rules, is they can be fixed with house rules.
Very easily yes!
Spot on Review guys, we have used it twice so far and like it, you are correct it does need a few tweaks. Interested in your Napoleon in Egypt games, please tell me if it is a campaign!
I think the main reason why the final note is surprisingly low for a game that you enjoy a lot, it's probably that review has been made too early. It would be great to have an other review like in one year or so, after it has been reprinted, if the cards give more historical flavours and if the support is definitely great. Thanks for the video, great as always !
A very objective and relevant review. Nonetheless, for a free game, it is extremely promising and will surely grow in support.
By the way, I'm SO MUCH looking forward your take one Napoléon's Campaign of Egypt, one of the most legendary adventure in military history !
Greetings from France :)
Really appreciate this review. I will absolutely be checking this out. I have been looking for an easy, low stress game for Napoleonics. Even BP is more involved than I want, specifically since I have to learn the rules and convince my friends to play it. And I want an easy to follow, easy to remember rule set and this might be it
As you doubtless know, a revised version of the rules has now been published, one year after the original set, though rather than being vastly expanded as with Never Mind the Billhooks, it is in the same format as the original and comes in the latest issue of WI (meaning it is still technically free). While it no doubt incorporates the various revisions made since v1 was released, both before and after your review, I don’t know whether it is set out differently or addresses the other criticisms you made. As I believe the rules themselves are still only four pages long, this seems unlikely. I hope you will take a look at it and tell us how close it comes to meeting your expectations.
P.S. One correction for Greg: while Jervis Johnson did have some input into Black Powder, the main author was another GW alumnus, Rick Priestley.
I like that you two referenced a number of your comments to the design philosophy of the rules. In the abstract, there is no point criticising a rules set for something that it does not set out to do.
Precisely! And it’s really helpful when a designer/author provides some kind of commentary about the intent. VF is a great example of a game with ample designer notes
@@LittleWarsTV I reckon it's the single most important part of any rules; why does the author think they need to exist, what will they do that others don't and how will they approach the basic issues of all wargames while perhaps trying something new.
As one of you said, it would be interesting to revisit the rules after a year. This is a good rule of thumb for any 'review' of rules. (Not that I've done it myself)
A very fair review in my opinion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Thanks for watching!
Being new to the genre of Napoleonics I knew there was a happy medium between ez-play rules and the 400 page tomes like General de Brigade. They have managed to retain the essential elements of combined arms, formation and maneuver while maintaining simplicity (as much as possible for Nappies). Hopefully this will introduce many new players to an exciting period for gaming. Experienced gamers will enjoy this for the homebrew rules potential as you can tailor it to fit more of what you want in a game.
One of the pluses was the way Jervis welcomed the imput from player to improve the army lists from historical information. Like with the Portuguese list.
PS: it misses an American List for 1812 war. Would any one care to submit a proposel to Jervis? ;)
Agreed, and not just the army lists. They’ve made multiple rule revisions based on good player feedback, which is a big plus.
Though I don't know how well this passes the "why do these rules exist" rubric that seems to come up more and more, making it free goes a long way.
As you all say, it's better than black powder. Which isn't a higher bar. I wouldn't pay for black powder but I would pay 0 dollars to look through slightly improved black powder.
I actually found an old Airfix Waterloo set that comes with some French, British and Prussian figures, and I might just base them and give this game system a whirl :)
Also, have you guys ever taken a look at the old Junior Generals system? It's designed for print-and-play but adapts well for miniatures too.
Happy New Year
Same to you!
Good review and as usual, you fellas put a lot of thought into it. I suggest that your scores are lower becasue you have a tendency to review rigidly against your own parameters and that drives you to judge rules at time against what they are not rather than what they are. Thanks for creating yet another fine video.
Thanks lads, enjoyed your review and we’ll be giving these rules a run out in our group I m sure. Look forward to seeing your Egyptian campaign an all. Keep up the good work. Cheers
Thanks John! Painting for Egypt now!
Thanks for another interesting review - sufficiently intriguing for me to download my own copy! Also, I'm not surprised the units are figure heavy - after all, the Perrys do have a vested interest in you acquiring as many as their lovely figures as possible. 😄
p.s. On your last point, a possible solution going forward could be to simply award a star rating at the end of your review, to signify how much you enjoyed playing the rules and how enthusiastic you are about playing with the rules under review again. This would save you having to revise your current scoring system and enable viewers to continue to compare final scores with other rules systems you have reviewed in the past.
French in Egypt is very interesting especially the later uniforms after Bonaparte's escape to France. I'm very much interested how the Turks or Mamluks are rated in your game and how the famous large square formations will work.
Well hopefully Jervis and the Perry’s release an Ottoman list so we don’t have to make one up ourselves! There are lots of mechanics baked into their system that would allow for massive Ottoman armies of relatively low quality. You’d want the Mameluke cavalry to be high impact but give them a weak Tenacity rating to reflect their unwillingness to stick around much
@@LittleWarsTV The more I read about the Mamluks the less certain I am about what their military capacity was.
By way of example, what use did they make of their unit of Russian POW / slaves - did they retain any European identity or become instructors (such as those that helped train their Albanians) or just absorb them into other formations?
Nice review guys, its a set of rules written on the back of a cigarette packet, couldn't really expect much else. 😏
Do you guys intend to check out Blood and Plunder? Its a really fun ruleset with some interesting activation mechanics and great historical flavor.
Great video, thanks!
Interesting review video. I fully understand your quandary in reviewing a short, free ruleset - you want to be consistent with your other reviews, but also fair. I also understand the Perry's are figure manufacturers, so they want to facilitate that aspect (e.g. large units). Personally my interest in Naps has waned considerably over the years, being replaced by SYW in particular - for example far less fiddly rules like dealing with clouds of skirmishers. I would be interested to see a V&F variant for SYW, but unfortunately I think it's one period the Perry's don't do.
Very nice review like always.
Presentation is excellent. Having been used to Phil Barker style rules it is simple to understand and an easy read. It is not necessary for eye candy. The text presentation could have been illustrated by their figure collection but what is the point of that? We print these at home and B&W A4 is spot on. If you are familiar with Wargames Vault then concise pdf printable rules is the way to go.
I agree with the score. I use the Epic Napoleon miniatures. I'm on my second game of 188 point of Prussian and 182 points of French. Having a great time. I would love it if they do ACW.
It's kinda funny because the rules seem to be as simple as the Perry's Travel Battle system but with a little touch of Black Powder to give it some detail. A game that's in between both. I like it, and can't wait to try it! But like you guys I'm still trying to paint up my 6mm units. 😆 Great review, guys! It just keeps urging me to hurry up and get my Armies painted up. 👏 👏 👏 👏
I'm still trying to find the right system to play. I have 28mm figures but only a smaller 5x3 foot dining table. Trying to find a game that would work for a single brigade plus a little cavalry and artillery support that would work on a smaller table that size.
I want a game like a two and a half hour competition game with army lists to cater for that.
Players need skills for :-
a) pick a nationality.
b) choose an army from that national list.
c) plan a game strategy.
d) formulate tactics to win within the time allowed.
e) minimise casualties and maximise objectives gained.
To do this in the UK a sheet of hardboard can be purchased in size 8 feet X 4 feet so the game has to be set for a minimum of
6 feet X 4 feet it is possible if supports arrive at the latest by move 2.
It’s a fast fun game and Perry miniatures are good quality and fairly cheap .
While building an army just mount the rear rank on a 4 figure base for infantry (hits are for bases so number of figures don’t matter).
If you want to do this economically, it’s a perfect game for Peter Dennis’s paper soldiers I used the peninsular war book from Helion to test drive different Napoleonic rules. You can photocopy as many units as you want, in any scale you want. Very flexible. I did this for General d’armee & Valour & fortitude, I like both. This helped to inform my decision on which 3d miniatures to go for, composition of the armies which scale to go for. Looking forwards to GDA 2 because that looks a lot slicker & smoother too than version 1, whilst keeping the good stuff.
Fun!
Maybe include a "Playability" rating separate from the standard rubric scores?
Thanks guys for the review I have played several battles using them and enjoyed each one especially with little flicking of rules book pages back n forth in search of a particular rule . Also for those that don’t get to game too much thereby forgetting rules this is a godsend as it’s easily remembered . Provides fast games with Fate card system that I like too.
Two things can you please provide the QRS sheet that ye have developed and any review /AAR in the pipeline using Soldiers of Napoleon ruleset ?
I'd like to see the QRS they made as well, would make me more likely to try this out. If only they had a Free Stuff section on their LWTV website... ;)
As an “Old Grognard” myself I also am looking for the faster playing rulesets these days. I play one of the “other games that shall not be named” and love it; but, it is an intellectual grind to keep all the nuts and bolts straight!
I haven’t brought V&F to the table yet; but, after looking through the rules I am also a little put off by the very fluid movement mechanic. That brings back memories of Warmaster Ancients. I’m also not very sanguine about the LOS rules. A unit can see another if just one figure in the front rank can see at least one other figure without passing within 1” of another unit. That’s a little too forgiving for a 24-36 figure battalion.
All that being said, I am intrigued enough by the ruleset to give it a whirl. My thinking is to zoom out one level and make the maneuvering element a brigade rather than a battalion. That way I can recreate battles with a couple of corps per side and do larger battles. Rey even-handed review guys - thanks!!
Happy new year to you all 🤠🤠
In regards to Dave calling himself old, "You don't look old my young lad."
Another great review! I’m still looking for the perfect (for me) Napoleonics rules. Any chance of a review on ESR?
They should of got a +1 for being Free
For a light entry game that is meant to be a core a framework the historical flavor are great because you feel like a commander in the Napoleonic to civil war era of combat! Yes the units and cards could have more fluff but for a brand new light game it's good enough... Like you gave more historical points to games that feel generic enough to simulate any era of war becuase of how light weight they are but this won't work in modern or ancent/medieval times at least with out twiking it so I really like it and would give it closer to 70 then you guys have. Still great review and as a game dev I'm taking notes.
Thanks for the video. As Greg said I also don't generally like IGYG systems. There at least needs to be some sort of reaction available to other player. IGYG seems to me to be totally unrealistic. I can't imagine any real battles where the opposing side just sat back and watched as they were shot at, charged, out flanked, etc. For example, would you play chess if White could move every piece before Black could move one?
Had a look. I don’t understand why horse artillery has half the Range of foot artillery, ie British horse artillery has 6 & 9 inch guns as did the foot artillery.
I can’t wait to see Alexandre Dumaunt in Egypt
Being a survivor of many any Empire[1,2 and3] game in the day. Simple is always better. Wait till you hit 70 and try to read QRS`s!!!
Perfect example why presentation should be opted out of total score as it is irrelevant to the play environment.
It is only 10% of the weighted score, so it’s not a big one. But clarity and economy of writing feels relevant
What ruleset does your club prefer for battalion-level play for Napoleonics?
It seems to be extra rules for the different scenarios.
I will give it a try. But I have my doubts... I sometimes use Mr. Grants solo Fate table to improve my games.
Before trying this out, can you upscale from battalions/regiments to cut down on amount of figures?
You can easily cut down on the number of figures in a regiment, but you do need 2-4 brigades per player given how brittle they can be
I might have missed it, but I would have been very interested in how the rules handle skirmishers and attack columns, which are generally the more unique and trickier part of Nappy rules. If you don't have adequate rules for these two categories, you really are not playing "Napoleonics". (Guess I will need to watch the earlier vid on game play.)
I like Napoleonics, I have played Napoleons Battles system in the past and enjoy that level/scale Ie Corp/div with Bde being the base units. Like Fire and fury , i dont like Age of Eagles as its too much like Fire fury and not enough Napoleonic flavour for my liking. I have just purchased "Blucher" my Sam Mustafa just before you started featuring this set. I was wondering if you had tried or had comments on the Blucher game.
We have played Blucher many times and like it!
Please review Soldiers of Napoleon 😊
Ya'll are spoilt by new(er) sets of rules! 😜
Enjoyed them. For people wanting to try the period, simply cut bases from cardstock, write the appropriate number on them and off you go to playtest land! 🎅
Would love to see ya'll try, Drums and Shakos - Large Battles from Ganesha Games. Though, you will want to allow artillery to have a zone of fire equal to three battery widths (the battery plus its width to either side) and allow cavalry to charge infantry in any state the infantry is in. These, because "as written" artillery and cavalry are inflexible, weak and not representative of the period or their historical effectiveness.
So basically Napoleonics Warhammer. Just like Bolt Action is WW2 Warhammer.
Excellent rule review as always. Just one thing, Greg: take out the gum when talking on camera! Lol
Played this last week. I strongly agree on the qrs... It's useless.
Absolutely fun game, learned to play, setup and did a small (solo) battle in maybe 4 hours.
Thanks, I enjoyed your analysis of the rules. I have played several games and I like the system. In some ways, I feel you miss the point of why the rules exists. This was just a bunch of people looking for a way to get a big convention game moving to a conclusion at the show by making it fast moving and not having loads of rules that the players need to look up all the time. In that regard the rules are hugely successful. They took the decision to share the rules with everyone else for free.
That does not put any onus on the rules / writer to take into account that my table is only a 6’ x 4’ or I only have enough figures for a couple of brigades per side etc. So I think the rules excelled at what they designed for, it is a separate issue as to whether we can make those rules work with our own circumstances. I should also add that the author gives unstinting support to questions asked and ensuring that the army lists and rules revisions are kept on top of. I do think that your ending remarks sum up the essence of this and that the scoring system does not particularly serve the ethos behind the rules as well as it does with other mainstream stuff.
Is this, given the mechanics, historical war-gaming or history based fantasy war-gaming?
14:30 Sad that fluff and flavour are conflated with accuracy. Its fine to only care about the former but to confuse it with the latter is a problem.
Fluff and “period chrome” are things we often comment on in Presentation. It’s the window dressing. Our category for Historical Flavor is more about whether a game makes you feel like you’re in that era, facing period appropriate decisions with armies that behave historically.
@@LittleWarsTV That is just repeating the same error in the video of conflating the fluff (feel) with actual simulation (historical behaviour).
Try WTF which is a next step up from DBN. I use it regularly for Napoleonics ACW and the erican War of Independence.
A bit late but...l must add to this: it has now a French, italian and German Version...still for free. 88 pages with all the army lists. For free.
It’s a great game!
But... the PDF may be updated if neccesary...
Look at Legacy of glory rule set.
How about a score for "Value for Money". I love the channel by the way cheers.
Value for the money here is…10/10!
@@LittleWarsTV You are not kidding. Cheers
Pendraken for Napo ?
We have Pendraken armies in several historical periods, though not yet Napoleonics! Yet. I stress that word…
VF is a scale agnostic game so you could play in any figure scale.
Anyway to get that Q&A digitally?
Yes, it’s available in Wargames Illustrated Oct issue, which is available digitally!
Considering this is a more "generic" Musket and bayonet set, would an ACW or 1812 conversion be viable?
Just saw the part at 18 minutes lol ignore me haha
Oh yes, absolutely. Easily. In fact, I believe they are going to do a formal ACW version at some point in the future.
Say it ain’t so! I just purchased Black Powder and the Civil War Supplement!
Ping Pong tables are usually 9x5 right? I prefer larger than that. I have 12x6 and two 9x5s.
Then you are most fortunate! Many gamers don’t have that much table space available, so consider yourself spoiled!
@@LittleWarsTV I am pretty lucky. My gaming space is 207m2 (2228ft). An old Woolshed on our small far down here in New Zealand.
the new category could be "REPLAYABILITY"
Love this idea! We absolutely need to add this category.
Are you going to share a link (URL) to your 'revised' QRS?
For ACW I’ll play Jubilation T Kornpone. I’ve never won a battle so my expectations are low ☹️
I am surprised you lampoon using a table the size of a pig pong table, I think this is a great size for a game, you can reach more than halfway accross and it folds up.
It is! We often game on large tables in the club-but lots of gamers may not have space for this.
Seems a lot are looking for the "holy grail of wargame rules" I suppose being a solo player I am luck,I have found the rules I love know them almost of by heart,the ideal is playabilty and realise,thats what woekes for me
yeah, play "Rebel and Patriots" (Napoleonic mod), put 60 figures a side on the table and enjoy.
Phil Barkers DBA had no pictures and around 60 army lists. How much do you want to pay for pictures?
Video idea: how to base 10mm?
Sixth category “value”
Kind of left field but the black powder game I've been liking the most recently is Turnip28. Weird, fun, and it even gets the basics of period down pretty well. Also free as a download!
Looks to me like it's a ''beer & pretzels'' version of Black Powder (which in itself is a bit more ''beer & pretzels'' than I am used to). Probably a great way to introduce newbies to historical wargaming. There is no getting away from the requirement of significant troop numbers for Napoleonics - that is a core basic of the period.
Agreed, Roy. It’s lite Black Powder, and remarkably, VF provides just as good of a game experience (arguably better) in a fraction of the Black Powder page count.
It's Black Powder Lite.....
I agree Greg. Igougo needs to be lost
4 and 3 for presentation? Come on guys, hammering a free rule set because they don't have lots of fluff and pictures? Gregg - you were 'shocked'? Crikey! We need more sets that aren't full of padding - pretty pictures don't make a good rule set. And they're still developing online? That sounds like a big positive to me.
Interesting comments on the QRS. I never really expect a QRS to give me everything I need to play a game. I learn that from the rules and then the QRS is there to remind me of the salient points like distances and various other game numbers.
I'm not a fan of cards in historical wargames, and I agree that the fate decks fail to add much period flavour. But for a free set support is good and they deserved more credit for that. In mechanics I thought the skirmish rules were a bit of a cop-out.
Overall I thnk you were a bit harsh. But thanks for your review, which as always was cogent and thought provoking.
Sounds like BP lite
That about sums it up!
As usual, the Perry brothers (who are figure producers who own tons of Napoleonic miniatures, and profit from others buying their products) made a rule set where you need lots and lots of figures to play the game. You yourselves have lots of figures (or access to them) and belong to a club where painting is done rapidly and with lots of hands to help. I think this is a blind spot for folks like you and the Perry brothers; in that to me a simple set of rules should also have a low barrier to entry; and this "free" set does not. In the Learn to Play Valor and Fortitude video, at 0:56, you described the learning game as a "small" game with five brigade sized formations for the Austrians. Each brigade has around 100 figures in it; so five brigades means you need a total of 500 figures for one side! The French also had five brigades, which is another 500 figures, so you need a total of 1,000 figures to play a "small scenario"! Presumably a medium scenario would need 2,000 figures and a large one 3,000 to 5,000? This is not feasible for many players, so when I realized that 1,000 figures were needed for a "small" game, I was immediately turned off. Painting 1,000 figures to play a small scenario was a non-starter, even for a "free" game. I think you would be wise to add accessibility to your list of categories when you rank a game. It will help you take into consideration that blind spot (prejudice) that you have developed because you have access to so many miniatures. See the Learn to play video at 0:56: ruclips.net/video/CW9m6GHZBEQ/видео.html
As written, it does call for lots of figures. Hardly a blind spot for us, as we specifically called this out in the review and reduced our scores for the Playability as a result. You also don’t need to use that many figures per regiment-something else explicitly noted in our discussion. The number of models you use in your regiments has no bearing on the mechanics of gameplay, so it would be easy to reduce the counts. You do, however, need a good number of overall regiments due to how quickly they melt away.
@@LittleWarsTV That is a fair response as far as the review score goes; however, you did say it was a "small game" (with about 1,000 figures). See the Learn to play video at 0:56: ruclips.net/video/CW9m6GHZBEQ/видео.html
I found the rules very.. uninspiring? Old wine in new bottles. Considering the many new(er) rules out there instead like Et Sans Resultat, Battle Command (Field of Battle), Soldiers of Napoleon, or Bataille Empire (of Art de la Guerre renown).
Agreed that there’s nothing entirely innovative here, but it’s hard to even compare VF to the games you mentioned considering this is free and just 4 pages. Those other games are way more involved. And some players will be attracted by the extra complexity. But for new players or casual players, it’s hard to argue against a free 4 pager that works
Yeah, but how many of those systems can a new player get into for free and get a decent game out of?
Greg !!!!!!!!
Just play Legacy of Glory.
Another battalion for units Napoleonic game? Seems like we already have so many of them. How much different is this from Black Powder? Thanks for the review but I'll give it a pass.
How big of a difference from BP? FREE is a pretty big difference.
Seems like an awful lot of figures.
First
"Huuuuuuuuurrrrrrdddduuuuur FiRsT!"
I think you guys are badly tainted by the "Warhammer brush" and you just can't shake it
A very poorly done review that completely misses the point of these rules and the great opportunity they offer gaming groups. But you folks are too busy with yourselves to see beyond your very limited narrative.
Did you not watch long enough to get to the part where we said we like this game, play it in the club, and recommend it?
@@LittleWarsTV I watched the entire review and found it as stated. You fellows completely missed the point and the benefits of this set of rules. I was told that LW TV was the gold standard in gaming information and reviews. You certainly are no where near seeing the big picture only concentrating on a narrow viewpoint of gosh there are not any pictures or graphics.