Myth vs. Reality. Let’s discuss how DLC alters the blade’s hardness.
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Recently, I published a deep dive review of Kunwu Django knife with a “Diamond-like Coated” (DLC) blade and it made some folks unhappy.
This is a fantastic opportunity to discuss DLC coating, its properties, and how it impacts the blade steel.
I would like to thank @kunwuknivesofficial for creating this opportunity for my viewers and I to explore the topic and hopefully engage in a productive, professional discussion.
Reference links:
Leeb hardness test ASTM A956, see Paragraph 7.2:
cdn.standards....
Rockwell Hardness Standard ASTM E-18, see Table A1.4 on page 11
repositorio.ui...
Uddeholm Elmax Superclean Data Sheet, see tempering graph on Page 4
www.uddeholm.c...
Crucible Industries S30V data sheet, see Page 2
www.crucible.co...
My “controversial” video:
• This kinda hyped up kn...
Disclaimer: This video is for entertainment purposes only. The test methods and equipment used to create this video are not industry-standard practice. A test of a single unit does not represent a statistically significant sample, so your’s could be different from mine. Please do not attempt to replicate anything you see in my videos as these actions may lead to personal injury and property damage!
Hey, let’s have a robust discussion. That said, I don’t delete comments, but the RUclips Algorithm may, so try to not spell cuss words out, I don’t have the time to dig red-flagged comments out of the holding ditch…
I wondered about this very because you lower the temperature to apply the coating which changes the HRC. I can’t think of the word I’m looking for. Anneal ( sp? )
I figured I’d post this here since u never responded.
y not remove the coating on the tang of the dlc and test to prove ur point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Just a thought any way. I like the dlc coating because it's the only coating I've found that is truly scratch resistant to an extent and so it keeps my blade looking nice. If u break down as much cardboard as I do on truck days at my job then u could see y I appreciate it as any other pvd coated blade gets marked up fairly quickly due to the coarse nature of thicker cardboard.
When will ur other video come out about the 1.6 that miamibladelab had to add to his test based off of the blanks he got to test against. As there is a pretty big jump in the 3 points u said people want u to add vs half of that amount. I'm not saying either r right or wrong or that u need to implement any to ur testing just wondering when the video would be available. Thanks for any info.
@@MrCaissed Temper. Not lower, increase.
@@SteelAddicted I am awaiting another Kunwu knife that is DLC coated. If it displays the same issue, I will strip both blades and do a side by side. That new one is in Vanax, so the video will cover it, the S-Tao in Vanax, and if the issue persists, the Django. If I was wrong about the hardness of Django, I will film my intro wearing a clown nose and publicly apologize to Sergio in English and Serbian. Now, can you please let me get back to making more videos?!
Edit: please let Kunwu FB group know I said that!
@ I am not a part of any Facebook group and sorry u never answered so I figured maybe u didn’t see it as me and another commenter ended up having a discussion in that same comment thread. My bad I wasn’t trying to waste ur time. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I’m sure I wouldn’t care about u and whatever is going on with kunwu as I’ve stated I have and do not wish to have any affiliations with any knife companies. I just enjoy knives and enjoy finding out as much accurate info on them as I can. Thanks again. Hope ur new video goes well.
Channel that actually gives useful information. Thank you for your work!
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Cheers!
Love the deep dives into the facts! Also on a side note, a lot of people complain about s30v but in reality it really is a premium knife steel and will outperform a lot of steels like Elmax that people just assume is better because it has a cooler name. I think we don’t see a lot of overseas use s30v because it’s not as easy to work with but the side of that is better performance. A lot of cut test guys have shown that Spyderco’s and even Benchmade’s s30v outperforms almost all of these other production companies higher end steels.
Agree with all your points!
If you don't mind Sir, I would like to chime in on this.
To the detractors, it is well known that DLC does indeed drop the Hrc of many steels. It is common knowledge. there many companies, particularly when using a steel that can rust easily, but can be lowered in hardness with the heat in used in some coatings, going to applied coatings such as certain epoxy and or polymer coatings. "The Benchmade Bailout in CPM M4 is a good example. there are however, as briefly touched upon here ways around this.
The most sure way is to use a steel that possesses a secondary hardening in initial Tempering such as the old standby 154 CM adn CPM. IN this case, it can reach a good 60 Hrc at say 350F. go higher and it drops the Hrc quickly. However, as in your S30V example, it poses what is known as a secondary hardness capability at rather elevated tempering heat. At 1000F for instance, it can reach 63 Hrc, particularly when sub zero is incorporated between the heat and temper. In this case, the DLC has NO effect on the final Hrc.
So in essence, he detractors are wholly misinformed in this case. Which is not particularly surprising as the average viewer is not a metallurgist or heat treater.
Further, the test product you are using although not a recognized industry standards, is perfectly capable of showing a degree of difference between the two blades. Will the exact Hrc be dead on? Maybe, maybe not. but that is not the point. It will indeed show a rather accurate difference between them, therefore accomplishes the task at hand. you can for that matter, use tow different industrial Hrc testers and get very close but different numbers. Not uncommon at all. What is important is the consistency. As far as the blades not being thick enough as one poster points out, this is the reason the blade is positioned on a rather thick test block. When uses with the gel, it will give a reading similar to one solid piece of steel. Not exact, but more than close enough for this type of comparison.
Am I a metallurgist? No. but I have studied metallurgy for many-many years as a necessity and hobby. My sign off will more than y explain it. For those too young to understand, look it UP!
KnifeMaker/Retired with over 47+ Years in the Craft, and in association with the Original R.W. (Bob) Loveless/Jim Merritt Custom Knife Shop
@@michaell397 Thanks for commenting, Sir! I bet you have some stories to tell! Love having you on the channel!
Thank you for this comment, which addressed multiple questions I had, very adequately, in one fell swoop!
Having a hard time understanding what you were referring to re the bailout m4 which is cerakoted not dlc. Just confused
@@mrmouse-ol9pw Simple really.
DLC is a plasma process that heats the metal. Ofter over the actual tempeing timp, therefore lowering the hardness. Cerakote on the other hand is a painted on, (sprayed, adn baked on coating which does not heat to the point of effecting the temper.
KnifeMaker
@ to reply to CBRx- A Few No doubt. It's an OLD Man Thing!!! LOL!!! ;
You handled it CALMLY and professionaly....meanwhile, the ugly side of the "knife snobs" came out. Kunwu's unprofessional response reminded me of why I would NEVER buy a Liong Mah knife. He did the same thing. Very fragile minded people behind many of these hyped up "vanity projects" masquerading as true knife companies. Great work and don't stop what you are doing.
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Well done! I've stayed away from coated blades just preferring to care for my knives based on their needs. I understand some people may like how their knife looks with a coating, but I think it's more for show. I use my knives, and yes they get beat up a bit and occasionally get a bit of rust/corrosian but it's easily remedied, as long as you don't let it go on for days. I neve thought about how the DLC is applied, but your theory makes sense . . . AGAIN - WELL DONE SIR!
Great information and video, never stop, even when manufacturers push back. This is the way.
@@WayofKnifeEdcGearHouse This is The Way!
I always thought the DLC process had to affect tempering since it involves high heat. Good to know it shouldn’t really affect S30v because of its high tempering temp. It would be nice to have a list of steels, and whether or not a DLC process should negatively affect HRC. Thank you for your work sir!
Any steel can be assessed through visiting the manufacturer’s website and looking at their data sheet. Tempering temperatures are always listed there. For an example, pls follow links in the description.
I am glade you did this. I have one Kunwu that seems to me is soft. All the others could be as well but I believe at least one is... I barely bumped it on a forbidding piece of aluminum and it dented the blade. I decided to test several of my higher AND lower end knives by bumping them MUCH harder on the same piece of forbidding aluminum. NEITHER were affected! One would assume there is a problem! I plan to make a video about it.
Glad someone else is using critical thinking!
Thank you for your work!
Thanks for subscribing!
Interesting and informative video. Thank you for the content and keep doing what you are doing. You are providing an invaluable service to the knife community that can only result in the production of better knives. Take care.
Thanks for the kind words, I hope the content will help the community to make more informed choices than basing decisions solely on mental vomit 🤮 being offered by the “influencers”
When I buy a knife with a coating, it's usually purely because of the look. The fact that a coating that works at high temperatures during the process has an influence on the hardness should at least be known to the manufacturers, even many knife enthusiasts know this fact.
@@achimgeist5185 Exactly!
Coating processes are a thing that should be considered for heat treatment. A lot of coating introduce heat, so you shouldn't temper below the coating temp. That should influence your whole heat treating recipe and / or choice of steel.
Thank you for your knowledge and deductions
I’m happy you found it valuable! 👍 good to have you on the channel!
Fascinating video, I learned something. Thank you!👊
Great to have you on the channel!
I've been watching you for a while, and I'm also a huge kunwu fan. I find it funny that people can't handle their favorite brands not meeting their expectations. However, you should have led in the other video with the DLC affecting the hardness, which is obvious to someone in the know. It's not so obvious to others. I never buy coated knives for this reason. People think that because the outside layer of DLC is extremely hard, that translates to a hard steel. Anyway, I love the content, even when it isn't the result I want.
Thanks for the support, you are a rare breed of knife enthusiast, I appreciate your critical thinking!
Great information as always from this channel
Thanks for subscribing!
Test the Buck 110 magnacut. How many units did Paul Boss harden this knife?
I have a couple of blades in cpm 3V steel that i was thinking about sending them in to be DLC coated. Do you think the DLC process would negatively effect 3V steel?.
And if you don't recommend the DLC coating because it would negatively effect the 3V steel, are their any coatings youd recommend for 3v that would add corrosion resistance without effecting the steels HRC?
I don’t recommend thermal treatment of any kind because it may affect the HT. Watch my video on how I refinished ESEE
Sencillo. Very happy with the result
ruclips.net/video/ICSinmkml18/видео.htmlsi=wqUS67_8MvhTTfCc
I recently bought a Vosteed knife in Elmax with a coating..... I havent really used it much yet and havent had a chance to sharpen (waiting for my new Xarilk 3 to arrive) but I am a bit worried about it now that I know Elmax will be affected at those relatively low temps.
@@dalelane1948 Well, the effect on Elmax is still debatable because not a single source has disclosed how long the DLC application process is. 1 minute? 1 hour?
@@CuttingBoardRx I finally found some info (although it was from an M390 Vosteed) - its not DLC but a "stonewashed PVD black titanium coating"
Very informative video, thanks! BTW, you Leeb tested the HRC of the Spyderco PM2 Salt a litle while ago (it's a DLC Magnacut blade), you came up with 62-63 HRC. Do you consider it to be still OK for a Magnacut blade? Have you had an opportunity to test the HRC of the Satin (non-coated) variant (with the Caribbean yellow/black handle) for comparison, since (as you pointed in another comment below) Magnacut does have a tempering temperature within DLC range and thus can have its hardness affected by it? thanks in advance!
62-63 is perfect for MagnaCut blade but as far as other Salt MagnaCut knives I tested, they run it softer bc they want to keep CR as good as L200N. With the coating they are less concerned about the corrosion. Do note that they heat treat the coated blades spot on because PVD application could really ruin the tempering. Seems they simply use the coating process as the 2nd temper cycle (MagnaCut requires 2 tempers) and that’s evidence of how meticulous Spyderco is about delivering proper product.
@@CuttingBoardRx that's interesting. There are some PACVD processes for DLC (e.g. Sulzer Metco Dylyn) whose coating temperature range (350-430 F) is well within temper range for MagnaCut (300-450 F) according to Crucible's datasheet. That had me concerned about the PM2 Salt DLC blade's HRC, but your hypothesis about Spyderco applying the DLC on MagnaCut as part of the second temper process (especially now that they've brought the coating processes for their knives in house) makes perfect sense.
I've seen in another knife YT channel people rumoring that the Satin version of the PM2 Salt blade would have a higher HRC than the DLC version (thanks, according to the same rumor, to a collab with Sean Houston a.k.a. Big Brown Bear for the heat treatment), but I couldn't get this confirmed elsewhere, hence my last question. Your testing data seems to indicate otherwise - the rationale of privileging CR over hardness in heat treating uncoated MagnaCut blades for the Salt knives (or rather the other way around for the coated ones) is another interesting point you raise.
Fun fact: as you know, the PM2 Salt (black) has all its hardware parts (liners, screws, standoffs) coated, apart from the standoff just next to the blade itself and the pivot washers. I couldn't find this in any of the Spyderco printed materials, but a Spyderco representative told me the all these coatings are also DLC.
Great topic, thank you!
Thanks for giving me the information to verify a recent question I had. I reached out to Demko to inquire about how their DLC process affects their targeted 60-62 hrc for 20CV a couple weeks ago. I was told it shouldn’t have an impact. Looking at the data sheet for 20CV it appears that the target temperature range is 400-800 degrees F. Sounds like they know what they are doing!
Cold Steel is the Demko OEM. They definitely know what they’re doing!
Very good information thank you!!!
Glad I could help!
You are more accurate than the independent tester from kunwu. Nice job
Lol
@licencepo4616 Thanks! Not everyone agrees but most of them Kunwu cult members.
Well done, this is definitive proof that DLC lowers the rockwell
Thanks! A very logical conclusion.
I’m a certified metallurgist with a Bro.hD degree from the Distinguished Organization of Remarkable Knifery.
And I can tell you with 100% certainty (with an average absolute deviation from the mean of +/- 99) that spray paint is equally effective on many steels.
Unless I’m promoting a certain knife, then DLC is the greatest thing ever!
Good stuff as always👊🏻
@@TimsSchoolOfFishLMFAO. Now go on FB and tell that to the Kunwu fan club! They gonna love you 😍
@@CuttingBoardRx
Hahaha right!
But alas, you are not an Advanced Knife Bro… for there is only one.
If your critics are so certain that your Leeb (sp?) tester is off, why doesn’t Kunwu or someone else do a video explaining why this is the case and go through a real world example with two testers (a Leeb and a method conforming to an ISO 6508-1 or an ASTM E 18 methodology on the same blade? 🤔 I am curious about the comment regarding the accuracy of
Sorry - I missed the explanation about the test gel and the block substituting for the thickness from @michaell397 before posting. Still curious as to whether that is generally acknowledged and, if so, why that might be. Thanks for the video!
Thank you so much for the generous gift! The guiding document for Leeb testing is ASTM A956. Paragraph 7.2 states
“””Thickness and Weight-The thickness and weight of the test piece shall be considered when selecting the impact device to be employed. The following guidelines are offered as minimum weights and sizes of test pieces for selecting the proper test equipment. Test pieces of weights less than the minimum or pieces of any weight with sections less than the minimum thickness require rigid support and coupling to a thick, heavier non-yielding surface to resist the impact of the device. Failure to provide adequate support and coupling will produce test results lower than the true hardness value.”
The gel or grease between the block and the blade is widely used in machine shops and in vehicle armor repair community.
Hopefully you find this information useful and I will link the Leeb ASTM in the description. Can’t believe I didn’t do that to begin with 🤷♂️😂 thank you again!
I like Kunwu knives, but you cannot defy logic and science. Thank you for the video ❤
I am glad you enjoyed the video!
I’m wondering if you should have removed the DLC coating in the area you are hardness testing first?
At best that wouldn’t make a difference. At worst, it would result in even lower hardness.
I always thought it was general knowledge that DLC lowers the HRC in blade steels. There are two benefits to DLC that you didn't mention. One, is that it can prevent rust on blade steels that are prone to corrosion. Two, it shields blades from some scratches as the DLC has a very high HRC. But all things considered, You are right in that it is for cosmetic purposes.
I have Spyderco Emphasis and Ambitious-black coated. Both from budget line, both in 8cr13mov. The difference in hardness is night and day. I don't need machine to test it. Coated steel is soft, and uncoated 8cr13mov is crispier than VG10 on police 4. My experience.
Thanks for this data point! Great to have you on the channel!
@CuttingBoardRx I don't mind soft 8cr13mov on my Ambitious. I can literally hone it on my canvas pants.
Did they change their coating process or OEM? I didn’t think they were using DLC, but it’s been a while since I had a coated Spyderco blade on my workbench. I thought that Spyderco’s coating from the budget lineup didn’t get hot enough to screw up 8cr.
I have a question, DLC coating is harder than the steel itself right ? I understand that this treatment can decrease HRC in the steel itself but if the coating is harder why when its tested its not a harder HRC ? Can someone explain it to me ? Thanks
DLC is hard and flexible at the same time. It is also very thin, .000013-.00002”.
@CuttingBoardRx Ah I see, DLC can be mesured with HRC too if its thicker ? Thanks for the explanation
@ Yep! It is only apx. 1 micron thick. and yes, itj is very hard. In the 90's HRC Hence the name. DLC= Diamond Like Coating.
My double stack 1911 is DLC coated. No wear! May have the barrel done as well. 4
KnifeMaker
Don't worry about the fan boys getting butt hurt by your testing of their favorite knife company and finding it lacking. I like the the looks of some of the Kunmu knives and was considering buying g one until their rep posted his comment.
@@arizflash Well, so far I haven’t seen anything that would make me decide on a Kunwu one way or another, but at the Reate and TRM prices, why wouldn’t I pick either one of these three? As to Kunwu’s comment and the fans, it’s all good, I’m not offended.
Hi, i have a kershaw launch 16 in M4 blade steel, its coated with cerakote, how does the process compare to the dlc process?
I explained it above . ;
Great way to handle drama 👌
Drama is never the goal, but sometimes it’s hard to avoid it. Funny how they all say I’m doing it for clicks bating… Medford said that too.
Click baiting would be making ridiculous unfounded claims...not performing tests, measures, and/or demonstrations to evaluate a product
Flippers and salesman are the click baiters
I find it odd that a knife manufacturer would bother to comment on a random RUclips channel. It isn't as if these results were published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. The fact that they commented sort of smacks of insecurity to me.
@ Great comment! Thanks for subscribing!
Man has been on a mission to shut down Metal Complex 😂 here with his DLC coated Kunwu made Excalibur
I don't think he is on a mission to shut anyone down. But, he does want to serve as a consumer advocate to keep manufacturers honest and improve product quality. MC and other flippers are salesmen. They don't test knives.
Not at all!
I came up with an objective grading system for EDC knives and will put all knives that come to my possession through the wringer. And if it scores above 15, I will recommend it, if it doesn’t, I won’t. Simple.
Has me wondering if the dlc process can be used as the heat treating cycle within its temperature range.
Did you have a chance to watch to the very end? My toothpick illustration…
They can’t break up a batch of blades before temper because it would double the cost and they can’t go much higher in hardness because of steel’s limitations or warranty concerns or some unknown supplier issue.
No. Most modern steels require at least one 2 hour cycle. Many a 2+2 and Others 2=2=2.
Dlc once cleaned and in the chamber, takes only minutes.
KnifeMaker
Lol great way to get kunwu to shut up. Comparing with other knife. Same testing yielding higher hrc compared to kunwu. You read my mind 😅. Keep on being awesome brother!
I am not trying to shut them up, merely set the record straight.
On who the clown is in this picture 😉
@CuttingBoardRx lol intelligent and wise. Respect. Are all Virginians like this? Gotta move there 😂
I've had some experience with Kunwu themselves and some devout cultists dropping by a video I made a couple years back. It looks like Sergio is getting more and more aggressive in the comments they leave as time goes on. They're not crazy litigious like those scam social media products, and they make a pretty decent product, but the public representation side of things has turned me off of the brand. There's so many knife companies out there vying for our money and attention that it's just easier to move on to others that can handle or discuss minor criticism in a productive way if they engage with content creators. the "nuh-uh, source:me" comments and added insults aren't helpful for anyone.
I don't wish them any ill will, whatever they're doing is working well for enough folks for them to continue producing new models. The passion is clearly there, but personal emotions could use some reigning in.
I think you have almost everything stated as well as I would have. Something is not clear about who and where actually makes the knives. Sergio has MC in his rear trouser pocket so he feels comfortable. It’s ok, I’m not offended by anything a salesman can tell me.
So there are two issues .
The least important is whether DLC interferes with the HRC test result.
The more important issue is whether the process of DLC deposition heats the blade enough to counteract the tempering of the blade thus changing the HRC and blade performance. And can the tempering process be altered to allow “non-destructive” DLC deposition?
If there was a clear understanding of how long the blade is exposed to the hot plasma, we would have a better understanding. Is it a trade secret?
@ I’ve seen little to no information on the DLC process, like a video of it being done.
On a similar note there is a lack of information on the whole powder meteralgy process.
@ There is a huge amount of info on the different powdered metal processes. Simple search.
Some steels have what is called a secondary hardness ramp.
For instance, 154 CM if tempered to say 60 Hrc at 375 F, if tempered to 1000f now reaches 62 Hrc. Add Sub Zero before the temper is 63 is common.
Odd thing is after about 425 temper, the hardness drops like a rock until it reaches the secondary hardening plateau. Hence the secondary hardening nomenclature. Search 154fcm heat treat. It is all there.
Dlc the lower temp tempering results is lower temper yet. However at the higher secondary hardening level, the DLC treatment is below the tempering temp. No damage!
KnifeMaker
If you temper for second hardness, you can coat Elmax at 400 °F without losing hardness. Also, DLC can theoretically be applied without high temperatures (though it is not common).
I do not know if Kunwu did either of these two things (i would guess not), but DLC coating doesn't necessarily lead to loss of hardness.
@@janwalter2097 Well stated! Maybe Kunwu will understand your phrasing better than mine. But in general, marketing companies like Kunwu, Vosteed, Fintiso, etc. don’t state requirements to the manufacturers very clearly and I think that’s the actual culprit here. LIKELY but not certainly, they make blades at one place and then finish them at another. Something gets lost in translation.
Good topic! Thanks!
My pleasure!
HAHAHA KUNWU!! YOU JUST GOT SCHOOLED! .....GREAT WORK CBRx!
Any company that has desire to sell a hyped up, expensive knife to an American kid that trusts the so called “influencers” and “brand ambassadors,” have better design a perfect product, manufacture and advertise it honestly and support it after the sale. That’s the lesson here.
@@CuttingBoardRx You handled it CALMLY and professionaly....meanwhile, the ugly side of the "knife snobs" came out. Kunwu's unprofessional response reminded me of why I would NEVER buy a Liong Mah knife. He did the same thing. Very fragile minded people behind many of these hyped up "vanity projects" masquerading as true knife companies. Great work and don't stop what you are doing.
I would like to see is an old cold steel xhp with dlc coating.
I love XHP just the way it is, it gets that beautiful gentle patina over time…
It is suppose to have a perfected heat treat. HRC was suppose to ran at 62. Xhp is my favorite steel and should be used more.
Kunwu needs to get hold of their emotions, when you are emotional there is no space for reasoning. Very unprofessional on their part, “Slave of what you say and owner of what you keep quiet” old saying in my country. We live in a society that always takes the extreme sides. A simple I agree to disagree will suffice. This gent is taking his time to test knives and use his own money, my hat off to you sir.
Thank you! Thanks for sharing the great saying from your culture!
I was under the impression that the hardness and thickness of the DLC layer itself impacts the hardness on test results, and that you need to first remove the DLC from the tang> then hardness test the exposed steel.
Agree to your point of DLC application temp versus the steel's tempered temp
Also a 1-5 micro DLC eggshell like layer can scrape/chip off when the metal underneath it is softer, more malleable, dents, etc versus the DLC layer. E.g. DLC over a titanium watch strap doesn't hold up well
Well, according to a certain mega reviewer, DLC is the best idea since sliced bread. 🤣
The coating is only.000013-.00002” thick so it will have negligible effect.
@CuttingBoardRx y not remove the coating on the tang of the dlc and test to prove ur point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Just a thought any way. I like the dlc coating because it's the only coating I've found that is truly scratch resistant to an extent and so it keeps my blade looking nice. If u break down as much cardboard as I do on truck days at my job then u could see y I appreciate it as any other pvd coated blade gets marked up fairly quickly due to the coarse nature of thicker cardboard.
When will ur other video come out about the 1.6 that miamibladelab had to add to his test based off of the blanks he got to test against. As there is a pretty big jump in the 3 points u said people want u to add vs half of that amount. I'm not saying either r right or wrong or that u need to implement any to ur testing just wondering when the video would be available. Thanks for any info.
@@SteelAddictedbecause it is so smooth, the dlc will tend to shrug off the adhesives that can often gunge up a knife used for intensive cutting on boxes and packaging that have tape, labels etc.
The low friction also improves the cutting performance on cardboard and similar - as compared especially to other kinds of coatings that cause extra friction, or even to a scratched up blade.
I have one question - DLC is harder than steel. Do you think that DLC coating can change on test result? Maybe it should be measured on parts with removed coating?
Too thin to matter: .000013-.00002”.
That was truly a comment left by an immature social media marketer. Frankly I always thought their knives were more about the cool factor than maxing technical utility, so a slightly lacking hrc wouldn’t bother me, whereas that kind of response does.
I may buy some other knives second hand. Am not disappointed in the 4 I have, they represent good value for the money, off course I paid 30% below retail. The Ruike is mystery to me, seems like a great value but nobody talks about them.
I only entertain a coated blade when it is an easily corroded steel. At that point I prefer PVD or cerakote. DLC has its advantages but seems to be applied to steels that don’t require a coating.
@@Briancollectsknives Exactly!!! MagnaCut, S20V, Elmax, Vanax, S30/35/45, M390, 14C/12C, AUS 8/10, and many others DON’T NEED TO BE COATED. M4, 3V, CruWear, even D2 may need to be coated but they are not too corrosive.
It is baffling to me how a knife company doesnt know this, its not rocket science you just look at the graphs.. clearly shows the problems in the industry..
Most small companies are basically marketing organizations that procure their product from the OEMs as a compete knife (eg. Vosteed or Fintiso) or as a parts set to assemble in hous. Very few have in-house heat treat capabilities and an even smaller subset has a coating shop. Very few marketers have more than a superficial knowledge of the processes.
@@CuttingBoardRx Absolutely. Even some of the bigger ones dont have heat treat done in house.. BUT if you dont have a clue about what you are doing it is even more impressive to write a comment from the official youtube page and secondly, calling you a clown is a bad look EVEN IF you were wrong..
@ Remember also, looks sell. Most are bought on a spur of the moment due to how it looks to the buyer. Most collectors never use their prize and as the companies do not for the most part give the actual HRC, as far as they are concerned, Who is the wiser?
KnifeMaker
@@michaell397 greetings! Absolutely correct I agree with you. What does not make sense to me is that if your company operates in that way, why would you leave comments that are not only extremely unprofessional just from the words chosen but also pretending that they are an expert in that field..
@ CYA! Posing sells as well.
KnifeMaker
👍your method of hardness testing looks consistent and well calibrated/mapped to hrc. If possible/$ - Just remove dlc coating(easily done with a few minutes on 600 grit diamond plate) then re-test, this would resolve whether dlc layer itself affects hardness or dlc application (heat) lowered steel hardness.
9:37 - ruclips.net/video/D3wEvW-BbvE/видео.htmlsi=t4DtSfjxfxC5n5AU&t=577 Mfg Elmax datasheet hardness curve is not optimized, where (BCMW - BluntCut MetalWorks - research) Elmax hardness can reach 65rc working hardness. This blade still in my shop somewhere(I think) - ruclips.net/video/z5hVmR9AsGg/видео.htmlsi=KUcghS00nDxh97FU BCMW current protocol target Elmax edge tool around 64rc.
Thank you for linking your video! I really enjoyed it. I totally get your point, after all many custom makers have been squeezing max performance out of mid-grade steels like AEBL or A2 on a regular basis. But we’re talking production knife here, clearly not a custom job. Plus their comment indicates that they are relying on “independent testers” when the right answer would have been to say “we test and keep records of every batch we make and these are available upon request.” Makes me feel that they have a blade vendor, not making them in-house
@@CuttingBoardRx Agreed. Production batch/heat/run should be internally QA for meeting hardness and edge performance/test specs. As for custom vs production ht, given proper/good protocol production oven/furnace and quenching assembly/line are/should have a slight advantage over a small volume ht oven especially when ht-ing 2+ blades at a time. Also there is no excuse for production burnt edge either. Optimized ht blade often claimed rather than delivered/demonstrated. e.g. let's see 15dps edge whittles that antler (used in your video) and still sharp...
Can you do this test on the Kershaw Livewire with Magnacut?
MagnaCut is very sensitive to tempering temperature and its hardness will be impacted for sure. I have tested the coated blade in a video published a while back and it wasn’t spectacular but came out within acceptable range. Coating MagnaCut is pure cosmetics and I recommend choosing an uncoated blade version. Thanks for the great question and for subscribing!
@@CuttingBoardRx , hi Cbr, good video, I agree with jeffomalley, I would like to see hardness test on non coated magnacut kershaw livewire.
Sadly, Kershaw is running the Hrc apx. 2 points under the recommended Hrc for Magna by their listing. I would like the see the test done independently as well. ;
@@michaell397 Neeves knives said in his comments that it's a 62hrc. I'm not sure if he tested it. I'm guessing he did but ya would be nice to see a video on it.
With all due respect to other reviewers, big and small, they all sell knives for a living and I do not. Draw your own conclusions.
This is some of the best info i can find on dlc coatings and other coatings In general the guy on the left is the owner of microtech i believe.
ruclips.net/video/MbfbDF6WKBU/видео.htmlsi=yjApu8hQEgshgWfZ
Surprising how much DLC can change the hardness. Also really interesting how it can vary with different steels. S30v for the win.
DLC from my understanding will help a little with corrosion resistance but not to much but mainly it helps with being very scratch resistant so the finish doesn’t get ruined but other than that I don’t see much advantage I believe it depends on the steel it may hurt it significantly or not as much I have 4 kunuwu two non coated and two coated the coated are the Excalibur and the primo both are performing amazing cutting cardboard like champs haven’t had to sharpen them they seem to react to the strop quite well and the two uncoated are the padre and the gringo and they are the same way I think it just depends on the blade steel to where dlc may hurt the steel more than it may help it but they are great knives and there heat treat on both coated and uncoated blades from my experience seem to perform just fine none dull super quick and they all seem to take the strop great and come back super sharp and neeves knives has sharpened there s390 dlc gringo and it seems that it still sharpens super well and doesn’t dull to easy so I truly do believe it is just a steel to steel basis but to avoid all this figuring it out I generally do prefer non coated blades plus just a little bit cheaper too lol
DLC was introduced as heat, corrosion, and wear resistant coating for bearings in high stress/high cyclical applications. None of its properties are needed on a knife but it looks beautiful.
Wonder if there's such a difference between spyderco's dlc.
In my opinion the only blade steels that should have a coating is D2 and any nonstainless steels.
That makes much more sense than coating MagnaCut. But Even D2 can be maintained without the coating. It has plenty of Chromium to be able to resist the rigors of pocket carry.
@ I do like it on CPM M4 and it tempers high enough that the DLC can't damage it. Crew Ware as well. Along with several others. All needing it far more that D2.
I've made hundreds of knives in D2. Never seen one rust. But I do have my onw heat treat protocol that is a bit involves. (PITA)!!!
KnifeMaker
The only mistake you made was showing a poor result of a company that people love. Forget about logic with these people, they have a cult like mentality and will do anything they can to hide from logic, including ignoring evidence. They need to grow a spine and demand better, otherwise the company will have no reason to change anything. I personally won’t be worried about it because I seen everything I needed to with the comment from Kunwu. That is not how you deal with issues, regardless of if the issue is with their product or the person testing it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable becoming a customer if they have zero self control or decency when faced with an issue. They could have simply been curious and wanted to investigate or give their side/explanation. The fact they showed their a*s immediately makes me think they knew this information already. You have to follow the evidence and logic and that is what I see.
Thank you! I’m not too worried about the cult members. To date they have been able to resell their Kunwus to one another at retail price, now they are worried about not being able to do that. My personal takeaway from this is paying for DLC on a utility knife is kinda silly because you risk a significant reduction in edge retention to gain better looks.
@ I was just shopping for a new pocket knife over the past few weeks with a budget of $300 or less and Kunwu was a serious consideration. I decided against it because of two things, the ones I liked were all too heavy for what I was looking for and I was hesitant about giving their axis lock a chance. I was thinking that it looked like their axis lock may have been good considering the extra work they put into not having the standard round lock bar that you pull down on to disengage the lock. I haven’t been happy with the action of any axis lock I’ve tried so seeing the exact issue you had was what I wanted to avoid, I’m really happy I decided against it. I would have been even more let down if I bought one of the dlc versions I was looking at and then not only be let down with the lock but then also the dlc blade if that’s what I would have got. I’m not even that deeply into metallurgy on an enthusiast level so I’m really grateful that people like you do really good research and testing and then put it out there in an accessible way. Btw the knife I ended up buying was (another) Civivi vision fg that I had linerless aluminum scales made for, I also put in Skiff bearings and a Lynch clip so it still ended up costing about the same as a Kunwu, I think the total was just a hair under $250. I was already happy with the knife but this info made me just that bit happier with my decision.
@ I appreciate a thoughtful comment, here are couple of links you might want to check out. These are NOT affiliate links m, so I will not get kick back from them.
www.knifecenter.com/item/ADKAD205CPD2FDE/andrew-demko-ad205-shark-lock-folding-knife-32-k110-d2-clip-point-blade-textured-green-grivory-handles-knifecenter-exclusive
www.knifecenter.com/item/BFGDAD205TISC/berkshire-forge-titanium-demko-ad205-scales-backspacer-stonewashed
These are Demko 20.5 and Ti scales for it on sale at Knife Center. If you like your Civivi vision, you will love the Demko Shark lock and its awesome action. It is a strong as triad lock… and you can have 2 sets within your budget in D2 or go with 3V blade for about 50 bucks more. And Taiwanese knives D2 is legit. I tested it in the tree of doom!
@ those are actually really good deals and I agree I’ve tried some great D2/K110, even if it’s not as pleasant to sharpen it’s a great performing steel. I actually had an ad20.5 but I sold it, I still have a clone version of it from Jufule in textured titanium and “real D2” but you never know with Jufule. I bought the clone first and it had what I thought was a weird action so I bought a genuine ad20.5 and it’s basically the same, a little better feel but I don’t like how far you have to push the shark lock down and how much force it takes. It’s definitely a much stronger lock than the super lock from Snecx but I like how easy the super lock disengages. The nice thing about the vision fg I had built is that I sent the knife in so the scales could be made really precisely to the tolerances of my exact knife. The tolerance of the lock bar can vary knife to knife which is why I think some of the stock ones being mass produced get lock stick. Mine now has much more solid lock up than stock with zero blade play or lock stick. Another benefit is it’s now almost half the weight of stock, it’s only 2.7 ounces now.
@ This is cool! Feel free to share the link to where you sent it!
Would love to see you test some EMPEDC magnacut and some Vero engineering. Quiet carry and basically anyone of these companies that are using oem or other wise but listing their magnacut at 64 hrc
Love them knives has tested some of those brands if u search luvthemknives batch results in one of his latest ones I believe.
@Kunwu - Maybe instead of drama you should just invest in better qc?
Still, I think this kind of on-line belly-aching from a bunch of Chicom "running dogs" is the inevitable outcome of an already glutted marketplace.
Well said, Sir! Well said!
You do understand that the heat during the application of DLC is Instant and Brief right? Tempering happens over hours not seconds... And the Blade Immediately begins to cool. 🤣
I call BS! Here’s the video that shows blades being dlc coated and it’s clearly not an instant process.
ruclips.net/video/gxkxVrMJwyw/видео.htmlsi=-Ejzs3Ha4s26jZha
@@CuttingBoardRx It depends which specific process is being used, PACVD is a lot less hot than PVD hitting temps between 300 to 400 degrees and happens in minutes. My Source is I have been proxying DLC Coating services for knives for over a year and spoken to dozens of DLC Coating Companies and asked them every question in the book. Your test doesn't prove anything except a variance in the HT which has little to nothing to do with DLC. You're not even using a legit HRC Test either. Means nothing dude. DLC is a lot safer than PVD for the temper of a blade, that much you should know. You really think all the highest end knife makers and manufacturers that offer DLC coated blades didnt consider if it would effect the heat treat? lol. Seriously bro just stop.
@@dudestuffthings9991 Interesting! First you said “seconds,” now it’s “minutes…”
Sounds like you really don’t have a clue.
Leeb test is a perfectly legitimate method specked out by ASTM A956. My procedure is based on Paragraph 7.2 of that specification. It’s not industry-standard for the knife industry but it’s well described in the international standard.
“Proxying?” Not a word. Not sure what you mean.
Keep talking, bro you are being very entertaining!
Kunwu posted that!!! Man that’s disappointing. Granted I don’t buy Chinese but still that’s ridiculous
It is not the silly insult, it’s the fact that he quotes “independent tests” as the key counterpoint. Anyone who actually makes blades, would say something like “we use a certified Rockwell tester on a sample from every batch and the records are available upon request.” I’m an industrial engineer of yesteryears and on a cold day in hell would anyone catch me without that kind of paperwork. Tell me you don’t make blades in-house without telling me you don’t make blades in-house.
@ of course they don’t make blades in house! It’s all probably being done by the same company in China. I’m convinced all these Chinese companies are part of the same company but you can’t look up business records. I think they intentionally have multiple separate brands to flood the market with a “diversity” of options. In their defense it’s mind blowing how many American companies farm out there finishing, heat treatment, grinding etc… very few do it in house.
@ I follow Knafs channel that Ben Petersen runs himself. He basically kicked the trend you are talking about off when he worked for CIVIVI a few years back. And he posted a couple of videos that lift the vale of secrecy off the Chinese industry and complexities of world’s interconnected web of ownership, marketing names, manufacturing facilities and import/export loopholes. Just enough to keep me subscribed anyway…
Or they are inconsistent. The agressive comment of kunwu was maybe written by the head of marketing named metal complex
Nah, MC is much more defensive when he chimes in. And he follows up with hysterical emails. This was Sergio’s comment.
Ouch!!!
dlc is a high temperature progress. yes it is seem a another temper progress . so if not the high speed steel. most of the powder steel will less a lilttle hardness after pvd
Well, Elmax is clearly more sensitive to the plasma process. What works for high speed double-tempered steels doesn’t necessarily work for other recipes.
Would a "Stone washed" finish have the same issue.
Absolute not!
@@CuttingBoardRx Thanks, I didn't think so but it's good to know. I prefer a brushed or satin finish but I have a few Civivi's with stone washed S35VN. Thanks again.
@ The only effect on the steel a stone was h or tumbled finish has is ti helps seal the steel surface better. Therefore helping to slow the possibility of rust. Well, helps prevent and hide scratches better as well.
KnifeMaker
I stay away from coated blades. It's been my experience that coated blades have more 'drag' than uncoated blades. This drag impedes slicing capability.
The matte finish may increase the drag on a blade while the high polish finish may improve it. In a high speed/high cyclical rate application, metal to metal interface benefits from high polish (eg. bearings) but on a knife such improvement cannot be measured.
Tempted to cancel my preorder on the StiffyD not because I’m worried about lower than advertised hrc, but because of their reaction to your testing. Not even American made
I don’t encourage anyone to make purchasing decisions based on my evaluation of a single knife. And actually I felt that 15.72 EDC score is pretty high.
Impressive
I love kunwu knives but I do agree to just use a different blade material to build upon with the DLC. They do work with a lot of exotic blade materials so I can see and appreciate them for that. The only thing I don’t like are the noodle ass omega springs they use🤣🤣 but that’s a subjective opinion
I don’t think you’re wrong about the springs. And also, the slide knobs on th cross bar have metal to metal contact with the Ti handle, which is inducing a ton of friction. The system is not balanced. Still a gorgeous knife.
I never bought a Kunwu Clown Company knife again...
.bye bye Compadre...sigh😢😢
I am not really offended by their comment. Knife community has a lot of passionate and brutally honest people.
Interesting. I never considered that DLC would impact the overall hardness. I usually go for uncoated blades but sometimes (like microtech) I like the contrast between the black DLC and satin flats
I actually don’t care about the blade of a well carried knife getting scratched up against the satin grain. This Django is not just a very good looking piece, it could be hard-used, but this weekend I have Incosi in S45VN and Spydie UKPK on me because I had to disassemble Django to film the video.
@ I want a CRK Sebenza with the magnacut Sheepsfoot blade badly. I do have a Tuya with an almost identical blade coming this week. But in S90V. Woo-Hoo!!!
KnifeMaker
Very good in depth factual data. Kunwu should be on notice for thier disgraceful comments through this. Like other knife makers in high regard, they should have listened and discussed. But they went on a smear campaign with thier Bros. I hope many others get to view this video and put them on notice. I won't buy nor recommend Kunwu knives. I'll be sure to share your info whenever I see discussions on them.
Hard to discuss when you are covering up like a cat in a litter box!
KnifeMaker
Anomalous behavior has been observed. While inherent skepticism towards corporate entities is understandable, Kunwu's apparent focus on knife design and material specifications warrants further investigation. It is presumed that they conducted comparative testing of coated and uncoated blades; however, the possibility of undisclosed results or intentional misrepresentation requires careful consideration.
The evidence that Kunwu has NOT considered the difference between coated and uncoated blades is in the fact that the same hardness is advertised for the correspondingly configured blades, when even Metal Complex states that there’s some difference. Thanks for subscribing!
There's a whole lot of BS in this video, much as I hate to say it. First of all, you can't go by the steel producers data sheet and assume that the knife maker used their recommended numbers. Most steels are not produced for use in knives and thus there's often variance in the recommended numbers and those used by specialty knife makers. Larrin Thomas recommends tempering Elmax at 350° F, not in the 200s. I doubt there are any knife makers using such a low tempering temperature for Elmax.
Second, you're grossly underestimating the temperature for application of DLC, which is closer to 700° F than 300. So even at 350 F temper, application of DLC would be expected to reduce hardness somewhat. How much? Hard to say without actually testing it ... properly.
Third, you can't assume that your test of the coated blade is accurate, since 1) you didn't strip the coating and prepare the surface accordingly, 2) you don't know that the surface is perfectly flat (see above), and 3) the area you're testing is really too small, i.e., you are too close to the edge of the material (another factor with Leeb testers).
So, while I think Leeb testers are accurate in the right circumstances -- even for knife blades -- there are times where they just can't be used correctly, and this is one of those times. And with all that said ... the knife may actually be on the softer side. I wouldn't discount that possibility.
Who said anything about 200°F? This video clearly states 300-350°F is the DLC plasma application range.
I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt because you clearly looked at 200°C at the bottom of the chart. Surely you know how to do the conversion. We all make mistakes and it’s great that you’re confident enough in your ability to pay attention to post this comment.
Here I thought it was common knowledge that dlc lowers HRC.
The question isn’t whether or not it does, rather by how much. And steel selection has a lot to do with that!
Do Spyderco next.
Why is Kunwu leaving comments like a 13 year old girl?
I think they actually started to believe everything that Metal Complex says about them and when someone actually fact-checks, it’s like getting a wedgy in a boys dressing room. George Constanza comes to mind.
@CuttingBoardRx 😂
@@robthompson8285 Art Vandelay Knives by Sergio Cutchucockoff
Too funny🤣
lazycommentforthealgo
Thankyoukindly
Elmax can certainly hit 64 I’ve done it
And when you hit it, did you tell anyone?
@ certainly not. The world isn’t ready
Decided to NOT get a KUNWU
Awesome, more Kunwu for me!
Why not? Just go with the uncoated one.
But surely you can sharpen the edge past the surface coating so the edge retains true HRC where it matters. On the edge? Unfortunately theres no real scientific way of testing this except standardised cut tests to test edge retention (as a factor of hardness)
There is a way: remove metal all the way down towards the center of the blade. But if the coating process takes more than 5-10 minutes, a thin piece of metal will be more or less uniformly tempered. Good point, thanks.
@CuttingBoardRx yes I actually. watched a video recently of someone doing exactly that. I can't remember who. But if 2 blades cut the same amount of rope with identical edge. They probably are the same HRC inside.
Please test the stiffy p
I've tested it. Mine came in at 67.4 hrc, which is more than 2 points HIGHER than their target range of 63-65.
Not sure if You are correct with this video. DLC aplication temperature is 100 to 200 celsius and short time period. While "Temper at 250 C for 59-60 HRC, 2 hours x 2" so chanses coating itself lowering HRC by 2 or more points is way to low... I guess HRC before DLC was just low enyway...
Time period is important. Any specifics on what it actually is?
But 100°- 200°C converts to 212°-392°F which overlaps with the tempering range.
Different steels require different temps and times for the tempering process. So------------------
KnifeMaker
You should test the blade where there isn’t DLC coating. Like shave it off.
Not a must do. That coating itself is harder than steel. It is only.00013”-.00002” so it is the steel that is being measured.
@ if it’s harder than steel wouldn’t the test come back higher? Something doesn’t add up.
So dude. I'm a big Kunwu fan and have experienced many of their blades. And seen many different HRC tests using the industry standard technique. Using the type of machine that creates a dimple in the steel. The type of machine that is actually designed for the steels used in pocket knives among other things. And they have always confirmed the numbers that Kunwu claims for the HRC. All that said I'm open minded to different knowledge sources. However, this LEEB device you're putting all stock into seems to be widely known to not be reliable for the high hardness of pocket knife steels. A quick Google search 'will a leeb hardness tester give accurate hardness of pocket knives' told me everything I needed to know. That device IS NOT a reliable device for pocket knife HRC and therefore you're putting all eggs in that basket does lend credence to the comments made by Kunwu on your previous video.
The link to Leeb Standard for testing ASTM A956/956M is provided in the description of this video. You don’t even have to read the whole thing, just read paragraph 7.2 and see for yourself that everything you hear from the “influencers” about this tester is total unadulterated BS. You sound like an intelligent gent, just follow the link and read the short paragraph. Thanks!
If you care to read the comments which were not made by the kunwu staff in fact in their posts in the past they quote that DLC blade version is lower HRC openly the DLC is applied to stop scratching on satin blades as coating Vanax would be a waste of time for anything else.
Yes, but their mouth piece, MC, states it’s 1 point HRC delta. Not 2.7 points as these examples are. Good idea, btw, I will check that scratch resistance in near future.
Maybe the DLC is softer than the knife steel? Kunwu provides a lot of value so put some #respek on it.
DLC has a hardness of 85-90 hrc.
@@BladeLabMiami do u think it would make a difference in his test if he removed the dlc coating on the tang and tested it again?
I don’t think so, but there’s no way of knowing unless you try.
@@BladeLabMiami I asked as many have if he would be willing to do it but I guess we will have to wait and see. Do u think the adding +3 points was directed at me/ u for me asking him directly about the 1.6 u had to add based off of ur test samples? Just wondering. If u don’t want to answer I understand.
@@BladeLabMiami is there a standard DLC recipe? And iif it’s harder wouldn’t it increase the HRC of the knife?
Not exactly accurate. You should have the same model knife.
If Kunwu actually makes knives as they almost claim in their kinda “About” article on their vague website, they should immediately be able to pull the records for Django blades and tell us what their samples tested at. The fact that they advertised the same hardness for coated and uncoated blades speaks volumes btw.
Never bought a Kunwu, not going to. Luckily I have lots of dlc s30v, hopefully Spyder did it right.
Spyderco and Cold Steel/Demko stand out as companies that focus on the system-level performance of a knife rather than chasing influencer-induced hypes. Down to their most budget models 👍
I have many syderco in different steels and many Kunwu and both manufacturers are great the fit and finish and factory sharp out of box is superb
I’m wondering if you should have removed the DLC coating in the area you are hardness testing first?