I can honestly agree that there is plenty of "history" left to revision - I've even heard people say that history is "a living, breathing thing, which changes according to what we know about it." An example of this, a personal favorite, is that Trevethick's first locomotive wasn't a single flue return boiler. Instead, some schematics recently uncovered have suggested that the locomotive had to return flues that converged from the first - which could have some merit, as double return flue design was just about as popular as the mono tube return flue at the time.
Let's not forget that Brunel, after having a propeller carefully designed and tested through years of trial and error fitted to Great Britain, decided at the last minute to substitute a new, untested one, of his own design (of course) for its maiden voyage - one which turned out to be inefficient and had blades break off during the voyage.
Thompson Pacific availability was head and shoulders over everything else. Meteoric cobos weren’t as bad as they are reckoned to be. Some steam engines were loved when they arrived where the same class was despised by other crews on different regions or different sheds Us enthusiasts love to show off, repeating a solitary piece of information to appear knowledgeable and perpetuating myths. Where the truth is actually far more nuanced and complex. Excellent vid Chris. Thanks.
As a future historian, it's one of the most important things we get taught, and we are conscious of it. History is a living, breathing being; we are getting more aware of where we are coming from, and that ideas which have slipped into the collective memory were made at some point to justify a certain purpose (for example; the building of a national identity). These are being revised and revised, giving often some quite shocking and interesting results. It's what makes the subject so thrilling. Historians do not always agree with each other, but the discussion makes our perception of the past shift every day.
This sort of thing is coming out a lot in the WWII academic community as well. For an example, Field Marshal Rommel, who was treated for years as Germany's best field commander of the war and "The Good German" for his relatively clean reputation and "honorable" conduct, has recently come under increased scrutiny, particularly his actual command abilities, as well as specifics such as the depth of his actual participation in the 1944 attempt on Hitler's life.
Well for a start, Rommel had no participation in the July 20 Plot at all. In fact he was completely unaware of the plot and was shocked to hear the attack. However, the plotters had listed Rommel as a potential asset or ally in the event of the plot after the assassination but never reached out to him. Despite having no involvement, this link ultimately sealed his fate. Not to mention as well that Rommel himself was also involved in some war crimes, most notably in North Africa where he and his Afrika Korp units collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen (the Einsatzgrupen had an African branch) in rounding up and executing North African Jews. Also the reason why Rommel has his mythical reputation is partly because the British were trying find excuses as to why they lost early battles in North Africa rather than blame it on themselves. Rommel wasn't really that special or unique as a commander and in actual fact the real reason why the British lost those early battles was mostly due to incompetence and the Germans just simply exploited that to their advantage. Once the Allies got their act together with new tactics and strategy as well as properly using their superior resources and logistics to their advantage, the tables turned and the British and the Allies were the ones beating the Germans in North Africa
@@Frserthegreenengine it's likely Rommel WAS aware of a plot to remove Hitler from power (there are frankly too many accounts from the participants, survivors, and even his own wife for him not to have at least known about it) but he did not support an assassination attempt, as he believed it would spark a civil war. Several photographs have emerged in recent years of him meeting with officers who would be part of the bomb plot as well. Specifics are hard to ascertain, of course, as Rommel himself and many of the conspirators were swiftly purged before they could give testimony, but to say he knew "nothing" about it is a bit extreme.
The worst is when someone has easily debunk-able information and yet constantly passes it off as gospel to the point those not versed in the subject believe them and you spend far to much engery quashing the myth then you should have to. The example I hate the most when it comes to trains is Franklin Roosevelt and Grand Central Terminal. There simple baggage car, parked on a siding deep in the complex’s underground rail yard. It was actually formerly New York Central stock, having worked on the specialized “Wrecker” trains, with specially designed cranes for the tight confines of Grand Central. When the cranes were retired to museums, the baggage car was shoved into a corner and left there. Problem was that corner was next to an elevator that comes up at street level in the side of the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel. It’s a known fact that back in the first half of the 20th century, occasionally, big time VIPs would have their private cars moved to that siding and be taken up to the hotel directly. In the fact the railroad has done something like this within the last few decades. It parked an escape train on that track for president Geroge W. Bush when he staying at the Waldorf. FDR is know to have used the track at least once. A particular Metro-North Railroad (the commuter railroad that now owns the railroad) spokesman named Dan… he decided that the baggage car must have come from FDR’s train. He made up a whole host of stories about the car. How the celistory roof was for machine gun holes. How the car was used to carry FDR’s Pierce Arrow (despite not being big enough), he even tried to tell people Metro-North didn’t own the car. She carries one of Metro-North’s maintenance of way reporting marks that ends in an X. He told at least one TV show that “reporting marks that end in X means the car is owned by the military” Eventually, the car was removed and given to a museum on Connecticut, and all the nonsense died down, but if you find one of the news reports or documentary shows he did… there’s his bs for more people to see.
Or there’s stuff like the line in the song “Sink the Bismarck” by Johnny Horton, “she was the biggest battleship with the biggest guns”, which is absolutely false. Some of the British ships she fought had bigger guns than her. But the song says biggest, so that’s what many people remember.
Very interesting the point about the Clauds being rebuilt in Stratford & hence prolonged their life. They are personally one of my favourite classes of locos so (although none were preserved) I'm glad Thompsons work made sure we had plenty of examples to capture before they were finally withdrawn. Very good video none the less & totally agree about how it's important to not be blinded by our own bias
Another aspect is people's reluctance to say "I/we don't know" or "we can't know". Quite often there are gaps in our knowledge, which we cannot currently fill or we may never be able to fill as evidence has become lost to history. Many people see not knowing a certain thing as a failing on themself. However, the ability to openly admit ignorance is a testament to the knowledge we actually have!
CEG, love the sponsorship, hope it works out. There was a scenario here in NSW where a 2ft gauge Krauss was preserved static as ARCHIE, one of Four locos used to transport materials for Burrinjuck Dam. But when ARCHIE was disassembled for restoration, it was discovered that the stamped numbers largely lined up instead for JACK instead of ARCHIE.
Wasn't one of the Burrinjuck Krauss tanks left abandoned in its shed when the reservoir was flooded? I think she's supposed to still be there, underwater. Whether that's actually at all true or just a theory.
Really interesting about Edward Thompson as, having first read about him in the book "British Pacific Locomotives", Cecil J Allen gave him and his Pacifics a terrible roasting. Thanks for the illumination!
Another thought provoking not to mention interesting feature, Chris. From what I've heard/seen in the railway press for instance. It was found whilst both engines were in the works, that Albert Hall was in worse condition than Root Aston Hall. Leading to a swap being made between the two........ Likewise linking into your remarks about the Titanic, there's an urban legend of sorts to the effect, that was almost more people that "missed the boat" than there was empty berths...... Similarly with regards to Flying Scotsman. Every train driver in the land has driven the engine. Case of oh! yes Great Uncle Cedric drove her, and where was he a driver? The Snowdon Mountain Railway. What's more he took her on two return trips up the Mountain!
Reminds me of a storyteller I read from who never disputes people who claimed to have met Ben Chiffley, even if they were born after his death; for the same reasons he never disputes people who claim to have met ghosts, angels, or God.
Excellent, Chris. Many good points well made. Particularly liked the Monty Python quotes. More of this quality of critical analysis on GTI, please! Keep up the good work. 😁
8:39 as a ocean liner enthusiast I thank you for helping bringing some of these things to light. the materials the ship was made of is said to have been the finest for their time. sure it is horrible in our time, but they didn't have many of the modern practices we have today
Well said Chris... exactly what I was thinking. Next time the disciples of St Nigel of Doncaster attack me for daring to question some of Gresleys designs (the P1;s anybody?), or trying to give Thompson a reasoned evaluation, I'll just point them at this video.
So this is sort of how Dr. Beeching has been re-svaluated in recent years, due to people realizing how at the time the decisions Beeching made were probably what saved BR at the time. Also as a fan of the legend of Casey Jones, that last bit was hilarious, given how many rail historians over here in the states like to say Casey was a bad engineer, despite the fact that, yes, Casey was pretty damn skilled. (Don't get me wrong, Casey broke rules all the damn time. But usually at the behest of the rail companies because Americans at turn of the century weren't fans of Health and Safety.
But...he did pass a red lantern at speed, and was traveling to fast for conditions. He knew about the two freights thanks to the train orders that he had. That wasn't a surprise, and he should have been prepared upon reaching that milepost. Regardless of how 'skilled' he was. The wreck of that train was his fault. And he paid the price for it. Train wrecks at the turn of the last century were sadly commonplace due to a variety of factors. Really, the only unique thing about Casey was that someone wrote a song that was catchy.
The Grey Turtle Entertainment. In some respects, American railroad companies still aren't. The number and severity of train wrecks appears to be increasing, not decreasing and it my contention this is because they have become wedded to long, long, long trains. Trains with an all up weight of 15,000 tons (presumably short tons?) and getting on for three miles long. Now I'm not stupid and I can see how these might be advantageous, even necessary, but.......... The advent of DPU's (Distributed Power Units) has meant it is possible to reduce the instance of derailment caused by the intrinsic dangers of ultra long/ultra heavy freights. However, despite literally miles of "stored" locomotives, DPU's are still hailed by train fans as 'unusual' and they are not applied routinely or invariably on long, mixed trains.
@@rogerwhittle2078 you are correct. But not for the reasons you mentioned. Right now there's a lot of labor issues in the American Railroad culture that has led to a condition of overworked and unsupported crews. I could get into the nitty gritty of it, but youtube comments are neither the place nor do I have the energy to info dump such a conversation. The short story is simply that the railroad companies are relying way too much on the PSR operating model which pushes these long trains, but also reduces crew sizes. Thus we have very long trains that require more attention and tired overworked crews. BNSF is about to have a strike due to the uncaring hands of corporate.
Another great piece, only comment would add is, though Yes Brunel was a workaholic and would spend lots of time away from home. There is notes from people at the time including his wifes diary that often as soon as he got home he was an unusual man of the time, in spending hours playing with his children....one time notably doing a magic trick accidentally causing him to sollow a gold sovereign. Am quite sure he wasnt always there when needed and by todays standard wouldnt be seen as a "good dad". Oh other point to mention. Yes his atmospheric tube was a failure, but mainly because of the technology of the time. Rats eating the whale bludder covered leather caused the air leak thus destroying any chance of creating a vacum. I remember reading an article a few years ago of how Brunel university created a model of his atmospheric railway and it worked fantastically. But that would be if made today....
I find that John clease clip very interesting cause it sort of sums up the majority of groups on the internet, the scientific community (while having a lot of mechanisms to evade misinformation) still has issues like these so you get conspiracy theorists wanting to break the mould and fit the puzzle differently but if they get to popular then they become another one of those internalised groups. It’s a really nice quote and sums up the internal politics of most groups in genral
Glad to see you do a editorial on Thompson and his Pacifics. Hopefully now, people can start to recognize the truth that he wasn’t as bad a man and engineer as history’s made him out to be. Same as with J. Bruce Ismay of Titanic fame, or heck even Dr. Beeching! It would be most interesting to see you look into Beeching, and see if he really was that bad of a person, and if he really did what he could to keep BR going. Recent info I came across said he actually gave railway preservation his blessing, saved Fenchurch for the Bluebell Railway by keeping her in storage till they could muster the funds to buy her, and even opened the Dart Valley Railway!
No one has commented about the LSWR dining cars… and their Titanic link. It's most unlikely that both would have been on the same train or that those particular vehicles would have been used on that specific train. However the fact that they could have been has become the saviour of two carriages which deserve a better future. The Titanic guys have big ambitions and if they can raise the huge sum of money they hope and need for the project, then I can only applaud their approach, since it taps into new sources of funding outside the traditional railway community. LSWR carriages have not fared well in preservation but that might be about to change. We now have two restored and running on different lines, and two on display at York. The proposed Ironclad train being put together 25 or so years back came to nothing but we now have the Swanage collecting Victorian bodies for a train to go with the T3, and the Titanic guys whose ambition extends to a complete LSWR train of their specific period.
Class to see you're getting sponsors on these videos. Hope these help out with SLIPs work! Also lovely video. The subtle jab at Sans Pareil's cylinder myth is particularly humorous
@@the4tierbridge a long standing myth is Timothy Hackworth was given intentionally faulty cylinders from Robert Stephenson to prevent Sans Pareil from beating Rocket. This is untrue as Hackworth had I think 10 cylinders to choose from and inspect
Brunel was a man who saw conquering America as his ultimate achievement; his Great Western main line was, as the 1963 documentary 'Giants of Steam' pointed out, only the first step to Brunel towards the ultimate destination of New York, hence why he also invested in three advanced wrought-iron steam-ships, carrying passengers across the Atlantic from Liverpool under a subsidiary of the Great Western. The very name 'Great Western' was pretty much Brunel's point of saying Britain has an enterprise with American stakes in mind. It is why he desired to have his engineering feats be the best anyone had ever seen; he was a master engineer but he saw himself as a showman. Him putting his worker and family concerns casually aside reflected this. I brought this up in Anthony Dawson's video on his RUclips channel discussing interpretation of the history of LMR 57 'Lion' (go check it out by the way; it's great), that I believe that when the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board knew the engine was a relic of the old Liverpool & Manchester Railway when they obtained it. The name would very likely have been lost in favour of just a number after the locomotive came into the stock of the London & North Western Railway prior-hand, though it would have been the same engine as rebuilt in the early 1840s. It was only after interest in the engine's conservation arose by the 1920s that the revelation of it being named 'Lion' would have been discovered. Regards, Samuel Farris.
Just after watching this video..... (To all enthusiast) Edward Thompson is NOT a villain to the LNER. Even though he had to "rebuild" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class wasn't out of pure spite, it was World War II requirements prevented Thompson to "build his own original locomotive classes" as Thompson was allowed to build 10 of his original classes. Even Thompson himself wanted to make his own locomotives for the LNER not as a "way of disliking Gresley's design. Thompson may have "changed" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives was again WWII restrictions hence why Thompson had to rebuild some of Gresley's designs....... .......and yet many railway enthusiast still consider Edward Thompson as a person who shouldn't rebuild A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives. In my opinion, Edward Thompson is in no way a villain, he can build "original" locomotive classes but WWII stopped him and had no choice but to rebuild some of Gresley's locomotive classes.
Yes, I've felt the criticism of Thompson is over-egged. I think the problem is he didn't say to his staff "This is what I have to do. I can do no other." If he'd said that to his staff all would be forgiven, but then Thompson wouldn't have been Thompson.
Hope you get more sponsors !Its interesting to see how our view of past events change as our own views change .But what I don’t like is thinking all bad past events are caused by one group eg,post-revisionist.
My personal irritation is Maunsell fans love to overplay how 'bad' and 'inadequate' the locomotive situation at the SE&CR was when he took over. Sure Maunsell's designs were good, especially the N and the E1 rebuilds but Wainwright left a sturdy group of locos most of which lasted well into the 50s and even early 60s.
The best way to found out if a book is reliable or not: check the bibliography. A book is only as good as its bibliography. If, as with Thompson, the authors go back to primary sources - and quote them liberally - and critique existing sources then that is likely to be well researched and to be reliable. If a book has no bibliography, or simply cites existing usually secondary or tertiary sources - or even websites - best ignore it. See if the book or paper has been peer-reviewed: if it's in a legit journal then the chances are high it has been. It may also sound snobbish but also check the academic credentials of the writer, too. :-) I'm surprised you didn't mention the wibble over "lion" :P
"This is your leader speaking, here is an important announcement". "I has been put about by back stabbing revisionary paper hyenas, that the Goodies Post Office is closing down". "This... IS A LIE!!!" Goodie Goodie Yum Yum
@@ChristheXelent I mean more like wether the claims about the prototype/mass produced t1s where justified and apparently under the Wikipedia entry (with a source) said that in a recent study,the dynamometer car was not moving at a consistent rate which caused an measuring inaccuracy
very good video! it's weird how angry people get about revelations of things that have always been true but simply weren't known, or even seem confused about the concept and thinking it's a change rather than a revelation. especially interesting wit example of what John Cleese said given he's extremely stuck in the mud these days and doesn't understand this concept
Last year on a FB page I been moaning about the fact the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' had gone for an SECR 'E' rather then a LB&SC 'K'. Something which admittedly I'm still angry about but nothing I can do about it. But someone responding to me moaning said 'but the Ks were terrible engines', going on detail the valve gear was inaccessible and other rather random points. That fly's in the face of what I read by historians about the Ks. who described the Ks as good locomotives ("the best the LB&SCR built). I don't think its an official line from the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' who have said the E is easier to build (I guess that's right), but it does feel some are now trying rewrite the history on the Ks in some ways in attempt to justify their decisions.
The guys building the Atlantic have looked closely into the K because they really did want to build one. There is probably no one alive who knows more about the engineering of a K than they now do as a result. The K would be harder to build than the Atlantic because it’s even more congested between the frames, but the reason for choosing the E was down to what might be feasible in their remaining time on this planet. Now they have concluded that time is against them even for that, so I suspect we won’t see the E started either.
That’s not to say there was anything wrong with the K’s design in terms of how hard it would be to build. But as you get older, aching and stiff joints would simply make its assembly so much harder for those particular skilled engineers. There are many other reasons they chose an E rather than a K, the time it would take to build, availability of spare parts and common parts, castings and patterns, and cost (which has been worked out in some detail for both options, a K costing about double that of an E) against proven long-term fund-raising capacity, but you need to understand that the team of skilled engineers doing the work made the decision principally because of their own acknowledgement of their own increasing ages. You can get as angry as you like, but they won't get any younger as a result!!!! What you think are "random points" are all pertinent as to why decided not to take a K on as their next project.
I got that but maybe you should tell other people not to say crap about the Ks on social media just because your not building it. It bad enough I spent I long time before hand reading up and collecting articles about them (originally instigated two decades ago when someone said they wanted to build a K next and I didn't know what they were) only for some to now out of the blue say they are terrible, flying in the face of what been written before.
The 'random points' included such stuff as the "Ks" came from the same railway the built terrible locomotives such as the I1, thus that's reason why we shouldn't build one.... if that's the case 'Beachy Head's' reconstruction and any planned overhauls of the E4, E1 and the Terriers should be stopped as well...
My main reason for the anger isn't just because your not building a K is also what you sellected an express engine. In preservation there seems to be always the case thus type of engine seems to get more attention and thus, money, then other types even though in the past express engines were in the minority. I'm thinking here of the millions thrown at engines like Royal Scot, Flying Scotsman and Lord Nelson... and then they didn't work. In the new builds its even worse as pretty everything is an express engine bar the GWR Grange, GWR Night Owl, GER F5, NER G5, and the Standard 3MT (which I support). It was incredibly sole destroying when it was announced a E class as just confirmed my pervious thoughts that people seem to forget about the other engines there are and used to be. If they decided to do something else like maybe a D1 or using the existing SEC parts maybe a J tank engine, or even overhauled the LSWR Radial tank engine since alot people do ask 'when will she run again? (I'm aware she very very ropey) I might been disappointed but at least i would understood it. But no yet another bloody express engines. And one I never seen anyone bloody ask for too.
You could pose a couple of what ifs - what if the grouping had not occured (or in the way it did), what if WW2 had not happened - would the demand on locomotives be different , enabling space and time for more engineering comparisons, with more resources good aspects of Gresley's designs might have been incorporated into new designs , rather than a compromise back to a quick and dirty good enough and easy to maintain for what we need the locomotives to do, (and general wartime restrictions on new -build anything - resulting in some interesting heavy overhauls for more than just LNER locomotives in places around the UK, and post war capital expenditure controls in the BTC, again leading to fake emphasis on maintenance budgets
@@ChristheXelent absolutely not the meaning, take sponsership as it comes it's good you're able to get it, however, some puns are always fun. Refreshing to see someone say they read a book not just spill their mind onto youtube when talking about railways. Hopefully they give you a second go!
@@ChristheXelent i won't pay your rent but if you ever want to do locos in profile in melbourne sure I'll arrange a house for you rent free during your stay and drive you around to your filming locations work permitting. No jokes, Chris.
@@ChristheXelent still a little taken aback that you felt the need to go on the defensive here yet haven't felt the need to go on the defensive and say you weren't defending sams racism or giving him an out for it or lessening it on mental health grounds which is totally unacceptable. Maybe you should reguage that issue and clarify your position though I suspect you share sams position given you summed it up as some Hispanics causing trouble for him not him being crudely racist towards them. He's fine, they're the issue? For being hispanic and asking him not to make a mockery of their identity through use of their dress in association with being cheap and shoddy. It is a pretty endemic issue to railways and modelling, why just last week I was suggesting to someone who was on the fence about operating a miniature railway on a slightly damp day that they simply have a mate walk ahead and sprinkle sand on the rail. They responded "nice idea but we dont have any little black kids to do it". Just a joke? Or engrained behavior, not the only example I can give from many years around rail enthusiasts and modellers.
@@Samstrainss I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't defending El Cheapo, infact I even stated he brought that subsequent hard time on himself by his reactive behaviour. None of what I said is defending mocking hispanics, because there really is no defending it. If you have a problem with him, then best raise your concerns with him, not me
Want to try Readly?
Click here for 2 months FREE;
readly.me/chrisedengreen22
Only £9.99 per month after, and you can cancel at any time!
I read that news report about the passenger coaches that may have carried some of the Titanic passengers to the ship
at least we still have a few similar passenger coaches from the 1910s that may have transported some Titanic passengers
Another example could be a book or documentary on NCC WT class no.4 being the last steam locomotive in mainline revenue service in the UK.
I can honestly agree that there is plenty of "history" left to revision - I've even heard people say that history is "a living, breathing thing, which changes according to what we know about it."
An example of this, a personal favorite, is that Trevethick's first locomotive wasn't a single flue return boiler. Instead, some schematics recently uncovered have suggested that the locomotive had to return flues that converged from the first - which could have some merit, as double return flue design was just about as popular as the mono tube return flue at the time.
Let's not forget that Brunel, after having a propeller carefully designed and tested through years of trial and error fitted to Great Britain, decided at the last minute to substitute a new, untested one, of his own design (of course) for its maiden voyage - one which turned out to be inefficient and had blades break off during the voyage.
Thompson Pacific availability was head and shoulders over everything else. Meteoric cobos weren’t as bad as they are reckoned to be. Some steam engines were loved when they arrived where the same class was despised by other crews on different regions or different sheds
Us enthusiasts love to show off, repeating a solitary piece of information to appear knowledgeable and perpetuating myths. Where the truth is actually far more nuanced and complex.
Excellent vid Chris. Thanks.
Happy to see you getting a sponsorship!
As a future historian, it's one of the most important things we get taught, and we are conscious of it. History is a living, breathing being; we are getting more aware of where we are coming from, and that ideas which have slipped into the collective memory were made at some point to justify a certain purpose (for example; the building of a national identity). These are being revised and revised, giving often some quite shocking and interesting results. It's what makes the subject so thrilling. Historians do not always agree with each other, but the discussion makes our perception of the past shift every day.
Very true. I don't always get things right but I always fess up and admit when I'm wrong.
as a history major and substitue teacher, I am SO glad you talked about this
This sort of thing is coming out a lot in the WWII academic community as well. For an example, Field Marshal Rommel, who was treated for years as Germany's best field commander of the war and "The Good German" for his relatively clean reputation and "honorable" conduct, has recently come under increased scrutiny, particularly his actual command abilities, as well as specifics such as the depth of his actual participation in the 1944 attempt on Hitler's life.
I thought the good German was John Rabe?
Involved in the suitcase bomb plot? Still makes him a good German
Well for a start, Rommel had no participation in the July 20 Plot at all. In fact he was completely unaware of the plot and was shocked to hear the attack. However, the plotters had listed Rommel as a potential asset or ally in the event of the plot after the assassination but never reached out to him. Despite having no involvement, this link ultimately sealed his fate.
Not to mention as well that Rommel himself was also involved in some war crimes, most notably in North Africa where he and his Afrika Korp units collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen (the Einsatzgrupen had an African branch) in rounding up and executing North African Jews.
Also the reason why Rommel has his mythical reputation is partly because the British were trying find excuses as to why they lost early battles in North Africa rather than blame it on themselves. Rommel wasn't really that special or unique as a commander and in actual fact the real reason why the British lost those early battles was mostly due to incompetence and the Germans just simply exploited that to their advantage. Once the Allies got their act together with new tactics and strategy as well as properly using their superior resources and logistics to their advantage, the tables turned and the British and the Allies were the ones beating the Germans in North Africa
@@Frserthegreenengine it's likely Rommel WAS aware of a plot to remove Hitler from power (there are frankly too many accounts from the participants, survivors, and even his own wife for him not to have at least known about it) but he did not support an assassination attempt, as he believed it would spark a civil war. Several photographs have emerged in recent years of him meeting with officers who would be part of the bomb plot as well.
Specifics are hard to ascertain, of course, as Rommel himself and many of the conspirators were swiftly purged before they could give testimony, but to say he knew "nothing" about it is a bit extreme.
I heard Simon Martin discuss Thompson on the Railway Mania podcast, and since then I've had a reality check and a change of opinion on the man.
The worst is when someone has easily debunk-able information and yet constantly passes it off as gospel to the point those not versed in the subject believe them and you spend far to much engery quashing the myth then you should have to.
The example I hate the most when it comes to trains is Franklin Roosevelt and Grand Central Terminal.
There simple baggage car, parked on a siding deep in the complex’s underground rail yard. It was actually formerly New York Central stock, having worked on the specialized “Wrecker” trains, with specially designed cranes for the tight confines of Grand Central. When the cranes were retired to museums, the baggage car was shoved into a corner and left there.
Problem was that corner was next to an elevator that comes up at street level in the side of the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel.
It’s a known fact that back in the first half of the 20th century, occasionally, big time VIPs would have their private cars moved to that siding and be taken up to the hotel directly. In the fact the railroad has done something like this within the last few decades. It parked an escape train on that track for president Geroge W. Bush when he staying at the Waldorf.
FDR is know to have used the track at least once.
A particular Metro-North Railroad (the commuter railroad that now owns the railroad) spokesman named Dan… he decided that the baggage car must have come from FDR’s train. He made up a whole host of stories about the car. How the celistory roof was for machine gun holes. How the car was used to carry FDR’s Pierce Arrow (despite not being big enough), he even tried to tell people Metro-North didn’t own the car.
She carries one of Metro-North’s maintenance of way reporting marks that ends in an X. He told at least one TV show that “reporting marks that end in X means the car is owned by the military”
Eventually, the car was removed and given to a museum on Connecticut, and all the nonsense died down, but if you find one of the news reports or documentary shows he did… there’s his bs for more people to see.
Or there’s stuff like the line in the song “Sink the Bismarck” by Johnny Horton, “she was the biggest battleship with the biggest guns”, which is absolutely false. Some of the British ships she fought had bigger guns than her. But the song says biggest, so that’s what many people remember.
Do you have any links to this because I want to see the coach in picture?
Still no word from Jim van der Kolk here
Very interesting the point about the Clauds being rebuilt in Stratford & hence prolonged their life. They are personally one of my favourite classes of locos so (although none were preserved) I'm glad Thompsons work made sure we had plenty of examples to capture before they were finally withdrawn. Very good video none the less & totally agree about how it's important to not be blinded by our own bias
Another aspect is people's reluctance to say "I/we don't know" or "we can't know". Quite often there are gaps in our knowledge, which we cannot currently fill or we may never be able to fill as evidence has become lost to history. Many people see not knowing a certain thing as a failing on themself. However, the ability to openly admit ignorance is a testament to the knowledge we actually have!
That was a very good film, Chris, and not just for the railway content. Well thought out, and very well presented. Loved the old railway films too.
CEG, love the sponsorship, hope it works out. There was a scenario here in NSW where a 2ft gauge Krauss was preserved static as ARCHIE, one of Four locos used to transport materials for Burrinjuck Dam. But when ARCHIE was disassembled for restoration, it was discovered that the stamped numbers largely lined up instead for JACK instead of ARCHIE.
Wasn't one of the Burrinjuck Krauss tanks left abandoned in its shed when the reservoir was flooded? I think she's supposed to still be there, underwater. Whether that's actually at all true or just a theory.
@@ajaxengineco one was still there on-site as part of the museum I think.
Really interesting about Edward Thompson as, having first read about him in the book "British Pacific Locomotives", Cecil J Allen gave him and his Pacifics a terrible roasting. Thanks for the illumination!
Another thought provoking not to mention interesting feature, Chris. From what I've heard/seen in the railway press for instance. It was found whilst both engines were in the works, that Albert Hall was in worse condition than Root Aston Hall. Leading to a swap being made between the two........ Likewise linking into your remarks about the Titanic, there's an urban legend of sorts to the effect, that was almost more people that "missed the boat" than there was empty berths...... Similarly with regards to Flying Scotsman. Every train driver in the land has driven the engine. Case of oh! yes Great Uncle Cedric drove her, and where was he a driver? The Snowdon Mountain Railway. What's more he took her on two return trips up the Mountain!
Reminds me of a storyteller I read from who never disputes people who claimed to have met Ben Chiffley, even if they were born after his death; for the same reasons he never disputes people who claim to have met ghosts, angels, or God.
Excellent, Chris. Many good points well made. Particularly liked the Monty Python quotes. More of this quality of critical analysis on GTI, please! Keep up the good work. 😁
8:39
as a ocean liner enthusiast I thank you for helping bringing some of these things to light.
the materials the ship was made of is said to have been the finest for their time. sure it is horrible in our time, but they didn't have many of the modern practices we have today
It’s always a good day when Chris puts out a new GTI.
Bravo, sir. Signed by an active railroader and railroad historian.
Well said Chris... exactly what I was thinking. Next time the disciples of St Nigel of Doncaster attack me for daring to question some of Gresleys designs (the P1;s anybody?), or trying to give Thompson a reasoned evaluation, I'll just point them at this video.
The fact Gresley got it wrong with the valves on the A1s... is often overlooked on the road to his Sainthood.
Damn, i wasnt expecting a Philosophy lesson from this video lol surprisingly good. Always get the noggin joggin
An interesting and thoughtful disquisition. The arguments apply in many contexts beyond railways.
So this is sort of how Dr. Beeching has been re-svaluated in recent years, due to people realizing how at the time the decisions Beeching made were probably what saved BR at the time.
Also as a fan of the legend of Casey Jones, that last bit was hilarious, given how many rail historians over here in the states like to say Casey was a bad engineer, despite the fact that, yes, Casey was pretty damn skilled. (Don't get me wrong, Casey broke rules all the damn time. But usually at the behest of the rail companies because Americans at turn of the century weren't fans of Health and Safety.
But...he did pass a red lantern at speed, and was traveling to fast for conditions. He knew about the two freights thanks to the train orders that he had. That wasn't a surprise, and he should have been prepared upon reaching that milepost. Regardless of how 'skilled' he was. The wreck of that train was his fault. And he paid the price for it.
Train wrecks at the turn of the last century were sadly commonplace due to a variety of factors. Really, the only unique thing about Casey was that someone wrote a song that was catchy.
The Grey Turtle Entertainment. In some respects, American railroad companies still aren't. The number and severity of train wrecks appears to be increasing, not decreasing and it my contention this is because they have become wedded to long, long, long trains. Trains with an all up weight of 15,000 tons (presumably short tons?) and getting on for three miles long.
Now I'm not stupid and I can see how these might be advantageous, even necessary, but.......... The advent of DPU's (Distributed Power Units) has meant it is possible to reduce the instance of derailment caused by the intrinsic dangers of ultra long/ultra heavy freights. However, despite literally miles of "stored" locomotives, DPU's are still hailed by train fans as 'unusual' and they are not applied routinely or invariably on long, mixed trains.
@@rogerwhittle2078 you are correct. But not for the reasons you mentioned.
Right now there's a lot of labor issues in the American Railroad culture that has led to a condition of overworked and unsupported crews. I could get into the nitty gritty of it, but youtube comments are neither the place nor do I have the energy to info dump such a conversation. The short story is simply that the railroad companies are relying way too much on the PSR operating model which pushes these long trains, but also reduces crew sizes. Thus we have very long trains that require more attention and tired overworked crews.
BNSF is about to have a strike due to the uncaring hands of corporate.
Another great piece, only comment would add is, though Yes Brunel was a workaholic and would spend lots of time away from home.
There is notes from people at the time including his wifes diary that often as soon as he got home he was an unusual man of the time, in spending hours playing with his children....one time notably doing a magic trick accidentally causing him to sollow a gold sovereign.
Am quite sure he wasnt always there when needed and by todays standard wouldnt be seen as a "good dad".
Oh other point to mention.
Yes his atmospheric tube was a failure, but mainly because of the technology of the time.
Rats eating the whale bludder covered leather caused the air leak thus destroying any chance of creating a vacum.
I remember reading an article a few years ago of how Brunel university created a model of his atmospheric railway and it worked fantastically.
But that would be if made today....
On the latter point, Brunel like many visionaries reached too far
I love your GTI videos because of their wider reflective perspective but that you try really hard not to alienate anyone. Keep going!
My views on Thompson have changed.
I find that John clease clip very interesting cause it sort of sums up the majority of groups on the internet, the scientific community (while having a lot of mechanisms to evade misinformation) still has issues like these so you get conspiracy theorists wanting to break the mould and fit the puzzle differently but if they get to popular then they become another one of those internalised groups. It’s a really nice quote and sums up the internal politics of most groups in genral
Glad to see you do a editorial on Thompson and his Pacifics. Hopefully now, people can start to recognize the truth that he wasn’t as bad a man and engineer as history’s made him out to be. Same as with J. Bruce Ismay of Titanic fame, or heck even Dr. Beeching!
It would be most interesting to see you look into Beeching, and see if he really was that bad of a person, and if he really did what he could to keep BR going.
Recent info I came across said he actually gave railway preservation his blessing, saved Fenchurch for the Bluebell Railway by keeping her in storage till they could muster the funds to buy her, and even opened the Dart Valley Railway!
No one has commented about the LSWR dining cars… and their Titanic link. It's most unlikely that both would have been on the same train or that those particular vehicles would have been used on that specific train. However the fact that they could have been has become the saviour of two carriages which deserve a better future. The Titanic guys have big ambitions and if they can raise the huge sum of money they hope and need for the project, then I can only applaud their approach, since it taps into new sources of funding outside the traditional railway community. LSWR carriages have not fared well in preservation but that might be about to change. We now have two restored and running on different lines, and two on display at York. The proposed Ironclad train being put together 25 or so years back came to nothing but we now have the Swanage collecting Victorian bodies for a train to go with the T3, and the Titanic guys whose ambition extends to a complete LSWR train of their specific period.
Class to see you're getting sponsors on these videos. Hope these help out with SLIPs work! Also lovely video. The subtle jab at Sans Pareil's cylinder myth is particularly humorous
Where’s that?
@@the4tierbridge 12:46
@@profcraneporter What's it a reference to (don't know what the myth is)
@@the4tierbridge a long standing myth is Timothy Hackworth was given intentionally faulty cylinders from Robert Stephenson to prevent Sans Pareil from beating Rocket. This is untrue as Hackworth had I think 10 cylinders to choose from and inspect
@@profcraneporter oh! I thought no one believed in that silly story!
Brunel was a man who saw conquering America as his ultimate achievement; his Great Western main line was, as the 1963 documentary 'Giants of Steam' pointed out, only the first step to Brunel towards the ultimate destination of New York, hence why he also invested in three advanced wrought-iron steam-ships, carrying passengers across the Atlantic from Liverpool under a subsidiary of the Great Western. The very name 'Great Western' was pretty much Brunel's point of saying Britain has an enterprise with American stakes in mind. It is why he desired to have his engineering feats be the best anyone had ever seen; he was a master engineer but he saw himself as a showman. Him putting his worker and family concerns casually aside reflected this.
I brought this up in Anthony Dawson's video on his RUclips channel discussing interpretation of the history of LMR 57 'Lion' (go check it out by the way; it's great), that I believe that when the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board knew the engine was a relic of the old Liverpool & Manchester Railway when they obtained it. The name would very likely have been lost in favour of just a number after the locomotive came into the stock of the London & North Western Railway prior-hand, though it would have been the same engine as rebuilt in the early 1840s. It was only after interest in the engine's conservation arose by the 1920s that the revelation of it being named 'Lion' would have been discovered.
Regards, Samuel Farris.
Well done on the Add.
Happy to see you again by this time
Now I feel Thompson.
Just after watching this video.....
(To all enthusiast) Edward Thompson is NOT a villain to the LNER. Even though he had to "rebuild" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class wasn't out of pure spite, it was World War II requirements prevented Thompson to "build his own original locomotive classes" as Thompson was allowed to build 10 of his original classes. Even Thompson himself wanted to make his own locomotives for the LNER not as a "way of disliking Gresley's design. Thompson may have "changed" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives was again WWII restrictions hence why Thompson had to rebuild some of Gresley's designs.......
.......and yet many railway enthusiast still consider Edward Thompson as a person who shouldn't rebuild A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives.
In my opinion, Edward Thompson is in no way a villain, he can build "original" locomotive classes but WWII stopped him and had no choice but to rebuild some of Gresley's locomotive classes.
Yes, I've felt the criticism of Thompson is over-egged. I think the problem is he didn't say to his staff "This is what I have to do. I can do no other." If he'd said that to his staff all would be forgiven, but then Thompson wouldn't have been Thompson.
He’s still better than beeching and the BTC
Hope you get more sponsors !Its interesting to see how our view of past events change as our own views change .But what I don’t like is thinking all bad past events are caused by one group eg,post-revisionist.
Very insightful and interesting … ….
Imagine showing this to a Karen
Excellent stuff Chris, but I'll only be really happy when you get a white cat and "sharks with frickin laser beams"!😄🙂
awesome video Chris
Chris, you've gone off track, beautifully.
Hey Chris are you still doing the American steam locos in profile
Yes. But in order to film everything I've proposed, I still need to raise more than £10k. The link to the campaign is in the description
Do we get an episode about the Taw Valley situation?
1:50
My personal irritation is Maunsell fans love to overplay how 'bad' and 'inadequate' the locomotive situation at the SE&CR was when he took over. Sure Maunsell's designs were good, especially the N and the E1 rebuilds but Wainwright left a sturdy group of locos most of which lasted well into the 50s and even early 60s.
The best way to found out if a book is reliable or not: check the bibliography. A book is only as good as its bibliography. If, as with Thompson, the authors go back to primary sources - and quote them liberally - and critique existing sources then that is likely to be well researched and to be reliable. If a book has no bibliography, or simply cites existing usually secondary or tertiary sources - or even websites - best ignore it. See if the book or paper has been peer-reviewed: if it's in a legit journal then the chances are high it has been. It may also sound snobbish but also check the academic credentials of the writer, too. :-)
I'm surprised you didn't mention the wibble over "lion" :P
I could mention all kinds of wibble, Lion or otherwise. But then I'd end up with a video that's 4 hours long...
"This is your leader speaking, here is an important announcement". "I has been put about by back stabbing revisionary paper hyenas, that the Goodies Post Office is closing down". "This... IS A LIE!!!"
Goodie Goodie Yum Yum
"And now... A Walk In The Black Forest"
Humans will always be dodgy
How about you could make a GTI about the steam engine speed record debate?
Trouble is, there's not much of a debate. Mallard is officially the record holder, whether people like it or lump it
@@ChristheXelent I mean more like wether the claims about the prototype/mass produced t1s where justified and apparently under the Wikipedia entry (with a source) said that in a recent study,the dynamometer car was not moving at a consistent rate which caused an measuring inaccuracy
Not saying Mallard/the a4s where bad but I thought it would be worth mentioning
🙂👍
very good video! it's weird how angry people get about revelations of things that have always been true but simply weren't known, or even seem confused about the concept and thinking it's a change rather than a revelation.
especially interesting wit example of what John Cleese said given he's extremely stuck in the mud these days and doesn't understand this concept
A couple of people in a game I play said a lot of rubbish about Thompson, maybe they deserve to see this.
Last year on a FB page I been moaning about the fact the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' had gone for an SECR 'E' rather then a LB&SC 'K'. Something which admittedly I'm still angry about but nothing I can do about it. But someone responding to me moaning said 'but the Ks were terrible engines', going on detail the valve gear was inaccessible and other rather random points. That fly's in the face of what I read by historians about the Ks. who described the Ks as good locomotives ("the best the LB&SCR built). I don't think its an official line from the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' who have said the E is easier to build (I guess that's right), but it does feel some are now trying rewrite the history on the Ks in some ways in attempt to justify their decisions.
The guys building the Atlantic have looked closely into the K because they really did want to build one. There is probably no one alive who knows more about the engineering of a K than they now do as a result. The K would be harder to build than the Atlantic because it’s even more congested between the frames, but the reason for choosing the E was down to what might be feasible in their remaining time on this planet. Now they have concluded that time is against them even for that, so I suspect we won’t see the E started either.
That’s not to say there was anything wrong with the K’s design in terms of how hard it would be to build. But as you get older, aching and stiff joints would simply make its assembly so much harder for those particular skilled engineers. There are many other reasons they chose an E rather than a K, the time it would take to build, availability of spare parts and common parts, castings and patterns, and cost (which has been worked out in some detail for both options, a K costing about double that of an E) against proven long-term fund-raising capacity, but you need to understand that the team of skilled engineers doing the work made the decision principally because of their own acknowledgement of their own increasing ages. You can get as angry as you like, but they won't get any younger as a result!!!! What you think are "random points" are all pertinent as to why decided not to take a K on as their next project.
I got that but maybe you should tell other people not to say crap about the Ks on social media just because your not building it. It bad enough I spent I long time before hand reading up and collecting articles about them (originally instigated two decades ago when someone said they wanted to build a K next and I didn't know what they were) only for some to now out of the blue say they are terrible, flying in the face of what been written before.
The 'random points' included such stuff as the "Ks" came from the same railway the built terrible locomotives such as the I1, thus that's reason why we shouldn't build one.... if that's the case 'Beachy Head's' reconstruction and any planned overhauls of the E4, E1 and the Terriers should be stopped as well...
My main reason for the anger isn't just because your not building a K is also what you sellected an express engine. In preservation there seems to be always the case thus type of engine seems to get more attention and thus, money, then other types even though in the past express engines were in the minority. I'm thinking here of the millions thrown at engines like Royal Scot, Flying Scotsman and Lord Nelson... and then they didn't work. In the new builds its even worse as pretty everything is an express engine bar the GWR Grange, GWR Night Owl, GER F5, NER G5, and the Standard 3MT (which I support). It was incredibly sole destroying when it was announced a E class as just confirmed my pervious thoughts that people seem to forget about the other engines there are and used to be. If they decided to do something else like maybe a D1 or using the existing SEC parts maybe a J tank engine, or even overhauled the LSWR Radial tank engine since alot people do ask 'when will she run again? (I'm aware she very very ropey) I might been disappointed but at least i would understood it. But no yet another bloody express engines. And one I never seen anyone bloody ask for too.
You could pose a couple of what ifs - what if the grouping had not occured (or in the way it did), what if WW2 had not happened - would the demand on locomotives be different , enabling space and time for more engineering comparisons, with more resources good aspects of Gresley's designs might have been incorporated into new designs , rather than a compromise back to a quick and dirty good enough and easy to maintain for what we need the locomotives to do, (and general wartime restrictions on new -build anything - resulting in some interesting heavy overhauls for more than just LNER locomotives in places around the UK, and post war capital expenditure controls in the BTC, again leading to fake emphasis on maintenance budgets
Sponsored by rail shaddow legends. 🙄
Other shit puns on common youtube sponors but withs rail twist include nordepacificVPN, sirkeithparkVPN Etc
Don't hesitate to pay my rent next time you'd like a free uninterrupted video
@@ChristheXelent absolutely not the meaning, take sponsership as it comes it's good you're able to get it, however, some puns are always fun.
Refreshing to see someone say they read a book not just spill their mind onto youtube when talking about railways.
Hopefully they give you a second go!
@@ChristheXelent i won't pay your rent but if you ever want to do locos in profile in melbourne sure I'll arrange a house for you rent free during your stay and drive you around to your filming locations work permitting. No jokes, Chris.
@@ChristheXelent still a little taken aback that you felt the need to go on the defensive here yet haven't felt the need to go on the defensive and say you weren't defending sams racism or giving him an out for it or lessening it on mental health grounds which is totally unacceptable. Maybe you should reguage that issue and clarify your position though I suspect you share sams position given you summed it up as some Hispanics causing trouble for him not him being crudely racist towards them. He's fine, they're the issue? For being hispanic and asking him not to make a mockery of their identity through use of their dress in association with being cheap and shoddy.
It is a pretty endemic issue to railways and modelling, why just last week I was suggesting to someone who was on the fence about operating a miniature railway on a slightly damp day that they simply have a mate walk ahead and sprinkle sand on the rail. They responded "nice idea but we dont have any little black kids to do it". Just a joke? Or engrained behavior, not the only example I can give from many years around rail enthusiasts and modellers.
@@Samstrainss I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't defending El Cheapo, infact I even stated he brought that subsequent hard time on himself by his reactive behaviour. None of what I said is defending mocking hispanics, because there really is no defending it. If you have a problem with him, then best raise your concerns with him, not me
1:50